Jutter/stall on deacc. / acc. in low revs, coil(s), EGR valve or something else?

[Doedel]

Dear all,

I'm the proud owner of a 2002 Honda Jazz (to my knowledge, 1.4i LS), with approx. 240.000 KM's on the counter. Unfortunately, my car started having issues (again) which I THINK (!!) is related to a sticky EGR valve, or bad EGR valve potentiometer reading. However, I thought it would be good to post my experiences with the issue, to see if anyone's experience could be of help in determining the definite cause of the issue.

--- Bit of history ---
I've had the same (or similar) problem (juttering during accelleration) approx. 2 / 3 years ago.
Back then, initially, the garage replaced all 8 spark plugs as only 4 of them appeared to have been replaced during service by the previous owner(s)/garage(s).
During that same service, my garage closed off the EGR valve at the same time (they fitted a coin in between rather than a proper blanking plate But I suppose it did close everything off properly).
However, pre-standstill idle RPM's while rolling on the clutch would nervously fluctuate between approx 1000 - 1500rpm, up to the point where the car would just stall during drives (which I suppose was done by the ECM), and Engine Light would light up.
Brought it back some days later and asked the garage to undo the EGR blocking, just to see if the spark plug replacement by itself would be sufficient to solve the issue, which back then, seemed to be the case, allowing me to effortlessly drive around for at approx 50.000 KM's / 2 years.
After this, I read into this forum and some other articles on the various causes of this type of behaviour, and personally filtered down the majority of these issues to be related to either:
1. a dirty EGR valve/faulty EGR potentiometer reading.
2. worn-out spark plugs/ignition coils causing misfires which crosstalk to crankshaft sensor cabling.

But as my issue appeared to be "fixed", didn't look too much further into it.

In the meantime, the battery has been replaced due to age/wear. Since the car has driven fine after the battery replacement, this never crossed my mind, but after further reading I understand that a battery swap could (or should?!) be accompanied with an ECM "retrain" procedure of having the engine warm up on approx 3000RPM, and when warmed up, have the car run idle for at least 5 minutes, then drive "normally" for 5 minutes. I'm not sure if this training has been performed after the battery replacement (I haven't done it myself, and I can't blaim my garage if they're not aware of this requirement/procedure for a battery swap), but it ran fine afterwards.

--- Present day ---
Unfortunately, recently, my Jazz started juttering during accelleration again (first occasionally, but as time passed, it became more frequent). Eventually, juttering would also occasionally happen while in higher RPM's (e.g. on the highway), although the majority of juttering seemed to occur after "lifting off the gas" (e.g. rolling towards a crossroads, or lifting to slow down for traffic ahead. Within days, the jutter would occur often enough to (I suppose) causing the ECM to stall the car.

Took it back to the same garage, they showed me they read a P0336 (crankshaft sensor position) error from the ECM, and this time:
1. Replaced all 8 spark plugs again
2. one ignition coil appeared to be actually broken in half (got the part from the garage to confirm this, halfway through at the point here the "body" and the "pen" attach), they actually had difficulty removing the broken-off remainder. Unfortunately I don't know the position which they replaced, as I understand the "exhaust-side, closest to the CKP sensor" position is most likely to cause the interference to the CKP sensor cabling. Also, I can't recall if there was any noticable green deposit of corrosion, as I understand this is a "common issue" for Jazz ignition coils
3. the crankshaft sensor was replaced. Even though the misfire/interference symptoms were known to them, the garage had a replacement CKP sensor sent over "just in case", and decided to measure the old sensor, which apparently was "outside of spec resistance range" compared to the new one, so they decided to install the replacement one right away.

My Jazz drove "better" for a few days after the repair, but later the juttering started to reoccur, eventually stalling again at some point and lighting the Check Engine light. Returned to the garage, only to have it read the P0336 error again, which obviously wouldn't make sense with a new CKP sensor. So I suppose there were still misfires occuring, causing interferce on the CKP sensor cabling resulting in the jutter/stalling.

Decided to switch fuel (E10 / 95 octane, which I understand the Honda's equipped with PGM-Fi are allowed to use) from my "regular" station, to E10/95 octane fuel from another station nearby which "supposedly has better quality fuel/additives". This did seem to improve things a bit for a couple of days, but eventually the jutters would return more frequently, and inevitably, the stalls returned as well. Haven't tried E5 / 98 octane fuel yet, this is on my "to-do" list .

Only difference I noticed this morning, was the "nervous" stationary RPM's during clutch roll-out reappearing (between 1000-1500RPM), until the car comes to a complete standstill, which will "switch" it over to approx. 800-900 RPM stationary. But the 800-900RPM appears to be "steady", with only a very incidental dip/misfire (I suppose?) that will shortly drop it down to approx 600RPM before crawling back up. The nervous 1000-1500 pre-standstill idle RPM leads me to believe it has to do with the EGR valve (as well), but I'm unsure whether buildup in the valve could cause the "nervous" pre-standstill idle RPM's, and therefore think it could be a potentiometer readout fluctuation as well.

My headlights would also "dim" when the dip/misfire happens, but I suppose this has to do with the low RPM's rather than being an electrical/grounding issue of some sort, as other electronics appear to be unaffected (e.g. dashcam / radio).

Never had a ODB2 for myself to get engine error readings at "all stalls/occurrences" to see if there are currently multiple error codes unfortunately. But before I start having a regular visit to any garage, it would be helpful to know if there's a high probability of a single part/issue being the "main cause" of this behaviour, and possibly some advice on how to circumvent having to replace all ignition coils, and/or cleaning/replacing the EGR valve.

My plan of approach:
1. Contact another garage which has more experience with Honda's to see what they come up with.Also came up with a throttle-related issue, but besides that, not too many additional possible causes.
2. Attempt E5 / 98 octane fuel (which I believe would only postpone further issues rather than actually solving the cause, but if it helps, I'm willing to pay some extra bucks for the gas rather than replacing parts).
3. Try to move the CKP sensor cabling away from the ignition coil cabling shaft. Made quite a difference!
4. Retrain ECM by earlier described method.
5. Move the recently replaced new ignition coil to the exhaust-side, position closest to the crankshaft position sensor (if not already).
6. EGR valve cleaning by a garage using EGR cleaner or carborator cleaner.
7. Ignition coil cleaning (Looks time-costly, but doable looking at some videos, but only after double-checking with the garage if there's any risks involved).
8. Replace other faulty ignition coils (which I understand will be quite costly if all remaining 7 have to be done).
9. As per richardfrost's suggestion (reply 6): Check yellow/green wire at tight bend/junction throttle body wiring to the main ECU wiring for possible break.

Any help/advice would be much appreciated, as I would hate to have to say goodbye to my otherwise reliable/comfortable/fuel-efficient (around 5.2L/100KM varying-use average for a 2002 car ) Honda Jazz.

Kind regards.


Used/related sources:

CKP cable wiring away from ignition coil shaft: https://www.springbokphotography.com/autoelectrical/2019/7/15/honda-fitjazz-crank-sensor-interference
ECM retrain after battery swap: https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=1387.0
Ignition coil cleaning: https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/1st-generation-gd-01-08/91035-ignition-coil-repair.html
Ignition coil cleaning:

EGR Valve cleaning:

[Jocko]

I had my battery replaced in my Mk 1 2006 Jazz. RAC man just unbolted the old one, took it out and replaced it with the new one. No issues, no misfires, no relearning.
Page 312 and 313 of the owner's manual tell you how to replace the battery, which is exactly as above.

[Doedel]

I had my battery replaced in my Mk 1 2006 Jazz. RAC man just unbolted the old one, took it out and replaced it with the new one. No issues, no misfires, no relearning.
Page 312 and 313 of the owner's manual tell you how to replace the battery, which is exactly as above.

Indeed, I also thought that IF it were related to the issues I have now, it would be very little, as the car has been driving fine for quite some months after the battery was replaced (somewhere along the start of autumn 2022). But maybe now, with recent spark plug/ignition coil changes, it could make a small difference, although I also read the ECM should be "self-learning/-calibrating over time", but in my current case, the symptoms are worsening, so whatever the ECM is learning/calibrating, it's not doing any good  .

I guess the retrain procedure wouldn't hurt, especially if I decide to clean ignition coils/EGR valve, just to be on the safe side (and maybe optimize fuel usage).

[Jocko]

I have replaced spark plugs on a number of occasions and also a coil pack with no relearning. Check the wiring in the CKP plug as a poor solder joint, there or a connection further back could cause an issue. A high resistant joint acts like an aerial and picks up interference from the coil leads.

[embee]

I like the theory (experience?) of the interference between the no.1 coil feed and the CKP wiring. If everything is nice and fresh it probably all works fine. As stuff ages then it can all get a bit fussy. Quite a good write up in that springbok link you gave (though the first bit about the reason for 2 plugs per cylinder is way off ).

I'd suggest doing this bit first, separate the wiring, it doesn't cost anything other than time, and if you don't like it you can always reverse the procedure. What's to lose?

[Jocko]

Just read the Springbok link. A load of tosh. Two spark plugs per cylinder insures a more complete burn therefore better efficiency and more power. High-performance engines have been using this concept for years. Nothing to do with piston slap. And as for changing the rear plugs and leaving the front. All the anecdotal evidence on this site and elsewhere on the internet points to it being the other way around.

[richardfrost]

This sounds like it could be the same issue I had with my Jazz back in 2016. It was a worn Earth wire in the wiring loom from the accelerator, believe it or not.

Have a look at this thread or search yellow green wire in the Mk1 Forum.

https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=8440.msg42673#msg42673

I'm not saying it is the same thing but it could be.

[Doedel]

Thanks all for your involvement!

I like the theory (experience?) of the interference between the no.1 coil feed and the CKP wiring. If everything is nice and fresh it probably all works fine. As stuff ages then it can all get a bit fussy. Quite a good write up in that springbok link you gave (though the first bit about the reason for 2 plugs per cylinder is way off ).

I'd suggest doing this bit first, separate the wiring, it doesn't cost anything other than time, and if you don't like it you can always reverse the procedure. What's to lose?

Yesterday I had some spare time and decided to give this a go (like you mentioned, there's no harm in doing it, and easy to restore in case of unintended side-effects). Did it a bit more drastically compared to the Springbok link, and instead of "detouring" the cable away from only the last ignition coil, I opened up the wire harnass further down the line and managed to get it separated away from all the ignition coils (up to the point where the wire harnass goes "down" along the (right) side of the engine, as the plastic harness' fixture point wouldn't come loose). Took a bit of fiddling to undo some tape alongside the cable run before I could take it out.

Yesterday afternoon and this morning, the car already drove wáy better.
There were still incidental "hiccups" during acceleration in the early KM's after I performed the detour. From what I could determine, mostly around 2000RPM (which I understand from other topics seems like a "turnover point" for the EGR valve, hence I expect it to be partially involved in the issue as well). But at one point during the drive, the Check Engine light got off again, and since then, I haven't felt any hiccups yet (e.g. this morning during foggy weather, during a 40km trip for work).

Pre-standstill idle RPM's are still a bit shaky between 1000-1500RPM, so either the ECM is still working on it's "training", or there's definitely something "wrong" with the ignition. But with the crankshaft sensor cable being out of the way, the car is noticably less affected by it. Standstill idle RPM's still solid as a rock at 800-900RPM.

I'm still planning to look into inspecting the remaining ignition coils for corrosion and EGR valve for build-up myself, but at least having a more reliable car for now (which doesn't stall during drives) is already a big step forward. I did notice the replaced ignition coil was installed the 2nd from the left at the "rear" of the engine, so if I get into inspecting/cleaning the remaining ignition coils, I might consider installing the replaced one to the most-left/rear position, just to see if it helps.

Just read the Springbok link. A load of tosh. Two spark plugs per cylinder insures a more complete burn therefore better efficiency and more power. High-performance engines have been using this concept for years. Nothing to do with piston slap. And as for changing the rear plugs and leaving the front. All the anecdotal evidence on this site and elsewhere on the internet points to it being the other way around.

Indeed, the explanation for having 2 IC/SP per cylinder seems to be off, but I added it as a reference for his CKP-sensor "detour" fix. From the link below (which I encountered 3 years ago when I first got the issue), I indeed understand their timing is adjusted to optimize fuel efficiency/emissions
https://www.tiepie-automotive.com/en/articles/honda-jazz-holds-back-and-stalls

This sounds like it could be the same issue I had with my Jazz back in 2016. It was a worn Earth wire in the wiring loom from the accelerator, believe it or not.

Have a look at this thread or search yellow green wire in the Mk1 Forum.

https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=8440.msg42673#msg42673

I'm not saying it is the same thing but it could be.

This is definitely something I'll add on my list to consider/check, thanks for the suggestion!
My regional (Honda) service center also mentioned on the phone that there could be "throttle related issues" (without going too much into detail), but I can imagine he's referring to this item. As a gut feeling, I also thought being "gentle on the throttle" would have the hiccups occur far less often. I thought it had to do with the EGR valve/ignition adjusting differently between easy and aggressive driving, but could just as well be TB-related. They mention the culprit being a tight bend where the throttle body cabling meets up with the bigger cabling bunch from the ECU, tried to find any pictures/explanation on where to find this junction, but didn't come up with anything. Is this an easy to see/reach area?

I'll keep you updated on any progress!

[embee]

Thanks for that very detailed post, always useful to have real world experiences explained for future reference.
Glad it's improving even if not 100% yet, I'm sure you'll get there though.
 

[Doedel]

Another short update:

Last week after moving crankshaft position sensor cable, the car drove noticably better for a couple of days (most importantly, no stalling anymore). However, as days passed, the problem seemed to re-appear more often, until eventually, there was another stall whilst driving. I suspect the last-part of the CKP sensor cable (at the right side of the engine, where I couldn't further reach/separate the CKP sensor cable from the other cabling) still catches interference(s) from one or more ignition coil/spark plug-cables that it meets up with there, but haven't got the time yet to try and separate that last part of CKP sensor cabling from the other bunch.

However, as another test, since the Check Engine light was lit again, I decided to have a go and disconnect the EGR valve (early in the morning, while the car had been turned off over the night), in an attempt to prevent "misfires" from bad ignition coil(s)/spark plug(s) due to a poor spark, combined with poor mixture of fuel/"fresh air"/recirculated exhaust gasses for combustion. Didn't think of doing it before as about 3 years ago, blanking the EGR valve caused the car to run horribly (both idle and during drives), but considering the stalling was already occuring, it would (again) be an easy-to-reverse attempt/fix.

The issues I had 3 years ago with the blanked EGR valve didn't occur, and with the EGR-valve still installed, but the connector detached, the car currently drives "perfectly":
1. No hiccups have occurred since disconnecting the EGR valve's connector (even when getting low in the RPM's, which would previously near-certainly result in hiccups during acceleration).
2. Overall drivability feels good (no apparent issues during acceleration / engine breaking / idle).
3. Idle RPM's now remain to be around 1000-1100RPM (where normally, stand-still RPM's would drop down from 1000-1100RPM to 800-900RPM, this does not seem to happen anymore since I disconnected the EGR valve).
4. Fuel efficiency does not appear to be (noticably) affected according to the dash L/100KM indicator.
5. Strangely enough, the Check Engine light turned off during one of my recent trips, but hasn't come on since (where I would expect EGR-valve related errors start popping up, but maybe these errors don't trip the Check Engine light, and don't have an OBD2 reader myself to occasionally read the ECM).

So supposedly one or more ignition coil(s)/spark plug(s) are still igniting poorly, but without the exhaust gas recirculation (assuming it's now fully closed), the fuel/air mixture is "better", hence no longer occur (or far less frequent). 
 
Assuming no other issues start popping up, I'm considering leaving things as they are for now before considering cleaning the EGR valve or checking the ignition coils. But I'm slightly worried doing all these "workaround fixes" will eventually have the "main cause" of the issue worsen, up to the point where the car all of a sudden is not drivable anymore. When I have some spare time, I'll probably still start looking into the EGR valve / ignition coil cleaning in an attempt to fix things for the long run.

I'll keep you updated!

[Doedel]

Short update: Check Engine light has popped on during my afternoon commute yesterday. Nothing noticable in the car's drivability/performance/RPM's or anything, so I assume it's an "just an EGR-related error". Maybe I'll pass by my garage to have it confirmed, but as long as the car keeps driving as reliably as it does now, I feel no urge to do it anytime soon :-).

[E27006]

I had my battery replaced in my Mk 1 2006 Jazz. RAC man just unbolted the old one, took it out and replaced it with the new one. No issues, no misfires, no relearning.
Page 312 and 313 of the owner's manual tell you how to replace the battery, which is exactly as above.

Changing a car battery is not an issue, but I think there is a bit of self-calibration by the ECU over the first few miles.
In the USA their annual smog test for petrol cars reads the OBD11 port to see a "ready for test" code, that code is only set after the car ECU has calibrated during a drive, it is then fit for the smog test.
Swapping out the battery causes the ECU to lose the engine driving settings. I think the Jazz idle rpm is higher than normal after a battery swap, then settles down after the ECU has worked out and stored the engine driving settings

[Doedel]

Quick update: Not much has changed since my last post. Check Engine light is still on, obviously. Only thing I've noticed is a "misfire" VERY incidentally, and only once while I was rolling on a highway exit in neutral, the car stalled, but I could easily restart the car while it was still rolling in neutral.

For me, knowing about the possible stalls, the car is reliable enough to take it to 100km+ trips, but there's still something wrong with one or more of the IC/SP. I've read that they could be disconnected one at a time, to try and find the faulty IC/SP (issues should become less once you disconnected a faulty one, or worsen when disconnecting the "proper" one which is paired with a faulty one), but I'm wondering if anyone has experience with this (especially since my EGR valve is now also still disconnected).

[Doedel]

Quick update on my topic for anyone reading in the future:
At some point, the misfires/hickups would occur more frequently, up to the point where the stalls would happen again.

Lacking time to look into all the suggestions I summed up in my opening post, I decided to have the garage exchange ONLY the "rear lane" of ignition coils at first (so only 4). In my case, one of the rear ignition coils was already replaced at the garage during MOT test (as it was broken in half while trying to change the spark plug), so only the 3 remaining IC's were replaced. I understood the rear IC's are different from the front IC's, so whether I will be able to clean/re-use them as spares remains to be seen.

However, since replacing the remaining 3 IC's on the rear-lane (so rear-lane is now a full new coil pack), the car has been driving reliably without any hickups whatsoever!  The front-lane IC's are still the "old ones", but I think having at least 1 good IC per cylinder should be sufficient, and possibly replacing the full rear-lane of IC's resolved misfire-crosstalk to the crankshaft-sensor-cable and the resulting hickups/stalls. EGR valve is still disconnected, but I'm not noticing anything in the cars drivability (except the "check engine" light being lit constantly, but that's easy to ignore).

So whoever may be facing similar issues with their Mk1 Jazz, could be helped with this info/outcome.

[gtd2000]

Just a quick one, I understand that the spark plugs were changed but were they "gapped" properly, before installation?

We went down the rabbit hole of EGR related issues but it was as clean as a whistle.

The rear plugs were all totally worn out and it appeared that they had not been changed since the car was new, this was possibly about 10 years ago now.

After fitting a complete set of 8 plugs the problem did not recur.