Author Topic: Mk2 or Mk3??  (Read 29470 times)

culzean

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Re: Mk2 or Mk3??
« Reply #30 on: May 08, 2016, 09:58:57 AM »
regardless of brand small engined turbo'd cars will only ever have a short engine life
due to them having the nuts rev'd off them to get them moving all day long ,car manufacturers
that take this easy route do it to reduce engineering time and associated costs
in the design stage of a new low emmision engine.

Well a turbocharged car will require less revs to move about unlike a NA motor like the Yaris's VVTi 1.0 which needed to be thrashed if you wanted go anywhere + its actually more difficult to engineer a reliable turbo engine.

You all talk of Honda as if they don't know how to make engines. They were probably the last to offer Diesel engine and are almost the last to offer Turbo motors.. not becasue they cannot do it but because they only do it properly. .

Honda didn't offer a Diesel earlier (until they were basically forced into doing it by market in Europe ) because Diesel had already been investigated in Japan and they decided way back that 'in the search for low emissions, Diesel is a dead end technology' (ie the Europeans were backing a dead horse to win a race) - the Japs actually fell out with the European legislators over this and Jap companies were banned from Euro emissions panels (we all know now, following Volkswagengate etc. that the Japanese were 100% correct) - direct injection petrol engines also suffer form high NOx outputs. 

I have always seen bolting a turbo onto an engine as a shortcut to higher power but less reliability,  but as many engine tuners around the world have know for decades,  Honda engines are basically that well engineered you can bolt a turbo or supercharger onto them without any drama.    Unlike most car engine makers Honda had the benefit of their superb motorcycle engine technology to make lightweight and powerful engines without resorting to forced induction,  and blew away the old cast iron lumps with turbos on them being offered by other makers at the time.

SAAB (bless them) used low pressure forced induction as a way to reduce emissions, but SAAB never made a penny profit on any car they made and are now consigned to history of failed car-makers.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2016, 10:01:22 AM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

culzean

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Re: Mk2 or Mk3??
« Reply #31 on: May 08, 2016, 10:05:00 AM »
i would never buy a car with a turbo as it decreases reliability a lot as they all fail, honda must be mad to risk their brand

if i couldn't get a honda without a turbo i would move to kia or toyota

It is not 80s or 90s where Turbos were useless & how do you know KIA or Toyota won't be force fed by then, if not already? pretty much all diesel's including Honda's Isuzu based 2.2 iCDTI & their own 1.6 & 2.2 iDTEC are fitted with Turbos and there are Accords for sale with 300,000 miles on them. If you don't trust Honda to do a turbo well then ....

Without a Turbo a Diesel engine is nothing more than a power deficient lump of an engine - only fit for a steamroller or tractor
« Last Edit: May 08, 2016, 10:25:53 AM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

guest5589

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Re: Mk2 or Mk3??
« Reply #32 on: May 08, 2016, 12:07:46 PM »
regardless of brand small engined turbo'd cars will only ever have a short engine life
due to them having the nuts rev'd off them to get them moving all day long ,car manufacturers
that take this easy route do it to reduce engineering time and associated costs
in the design stage of a new low emmision engine.

Well a turbocharged car will require less revs to move about unlike a NA motor like the Yaris's VVTi 1.0 which needed to be thrashed if you wanted go anywhere + its actually more difficult to engineer a reliable turbo engine.

You all talk of Honda as if they don't know how to make engines. They were probably the last to offer Diesel engine and are almost the last to offer Turbo motors.. not becasue they cannot do it but because they only do it properly. .

Honda didn't offer a Diesel earlier (until they were basically forced into doing it by market in Europe ) because Diesel had already been investigated in Japan and they decided way back that 'in the search for low emissions, Diesel is a dead end technology' (ie the Europeans were backing a dead horse to win a race) - the Japs actually fell out with the European legislators over this and Jap companies were banned from Euro emissions panels (we all know now, following Volkswagengate etc. that the Japanese were 100% correct) - direct injection petrol engines also suffer form high NOx outputs. 

I have always seen bolting a turbo onto an engine as a shortcut to higher power but less reliability,  but as many engine tuners around the world have know for decades,  Honda engines are basically that well engineered you can bolt a turbo or supercharger onto them without any drama.    Unlike most car engine makers Honda had the benefit of their superb motorcycle engine technology to make lightweight and powerful engines without resorting to forced induction,  and blew away the old cast iron lumps with turbos on them being offered by other makers at the time.

SAAB (bless them) used low pressure forced induction as a way to reduce emissions, but SAAB never made a penny profit on any car they made and are now consigned to history of failed car-makers.

I agree 100% however that is besides the point. I was taking note of the blanket statement that a turbo engine will be less reliable & need a lot of revs to work.. it was the case with turbo cars of bygone era where the turbo lag was just endless. Current cars with LPTs are a different thing all together.

Ofcourse like a 2016 has more things that might go wrong compared to a 60s car with an engine gearbox and one dial but if you know Honda as a company, you know they don't make half hearted attempts. They are in the market to make money after all so rightly or wrongly the EU market demand forced them offer a Diesel and they did. Similarly if they have any hope of even maintaining their current market share let alone increase it, they needed to bring up a small turbo.

Designing a turbo engine from ground up is not the same as bolting a turbo onto an existing design. FK2 CTR is a turbo four pot. Can we really say its a compromised design? the VTEC, unlike every other Honda is actually activated at small revs and as the revs rise and the turbo comes on boost, the VTEC disengages so if done properly I don't think we have to worry about.

Contrary to general perception if you go to any CTR forum and you will find EP3, FN2s with as low as 80k on their NA iVTEC engines suffering from jumped chains due to abuse and improper maintenance. Now someone can stand up and say thats an unreliable motor? but no..we all know that is not true.

Not to say they don't know how to do turbos. USDM 2000s RDX and JDM City Turbo from 80s all benefited from forced induction.

But yeah I think the idea that Honda will engineer a compromised design just to meet market needs does not hold any credibility.

guest1372

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Re: Mk2 or Mk3??
« Reply #33 on: May 08, 2016, 12:27:41 PM »
Although normal driving shouldn't ever cause it, there are many diesel drivers who have suffered from failed turbo oil seals, so much so that our fleet manager had a page explaining correct cool down procedure when signing for a car. Affected the Volvos and BMWs and subject to financial penalty by the supplying lease company.

Can't see the average UK Jazz owner putting much stress on a turbo. Modern engine management and sensors should also maintain correct operating parameters and promote reliability.
--
TG

John Ratsey

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Re: Mk2 or Mk3??
« Reply #34 on: May 08, 2016, 09:48:08 PM »
Quote:  "The Mk 3 doesn't currently score well on value for money..."
It depends what sector it's competing in.  When I decided to trade in my 7 1/2 yr old manual Jazz Mk 2 for an automatic, I was choosing between a Jazz Mk 3 SE or a VW 1.4 TSI Golf Match.  The VW Polo was too small in the back and the boot.
The problem is that many potential purchasers compare the Jazz with other vehicles of similar external size. We Jazz owners know that internally the vehicle belongs in a larger size category where prices are higher. External size and economy of a Fiesta with the internal space of a Focus is how I describe the Jazz.

Honda need to bring in a lower priced smaller car to help get people into the showrooms and also cater for those potential customers who only want the internal space of a Fiesta or Polo with price tag to match.
2022 HR-V Elegance, previously 2020 Jazz Crosstar

edam

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Re: Mk2 or Mk3??
« Reply #35 on: May 09, 2016, 06:38:52 PM »
The bottom line is that the MK3 manual does not hurt to drive but I'm having problems with it running rough at low revs.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 08:19:23 PM by edam »

John Ratsey

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Re: Mk2 or Mk3??
« Reply #36 on: May 09, 2016, 09:10:55 PM »
The bottom line is that the MK3 manual does not hurt to drive but I'm having problems with it running rough at low revs.
Is that rough when idling or rough when pulling away? The CVT Mk 3 always puts on a few revs (typically 2500 rpm) when pulling away. This appears to be by design to compensate for the engine not having a lot of power at the bottom end of the rev range. The manual version might need similar treatment but we need someone with the manual gearbox to confirm this.
2022 HR-V Elegance, previously 2020 Jazz Crosstar

guest5679

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Re: Mk2 or Mk3??
« Reply #37 on: May 10, 2016, 10:28:52 AM »
... The CVT Mk 3 always puts on a few revs (typically 2500 rpm) when pulling away. This appears to be by design to compensate for the engine not having a lot of power at the bottom end of the rev range. ...

Have you had a change of mind?  On a previous append in another thread, I believe you wrote that you viewed this initial revving when pulling away as a positive aspect of the Mk3 CVT behaviour leading to a reduction in fuel consumption and CO2 emissions.  In what you wrote above, this initial revving could be interpreted as an attempt to cover up a flaw or deficiency in the design of the engine.

John Ratsey

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Re: Mk2 or Mk3??
« Reply #38 on: May 10, 2016, 11:12:34 AM »
Have you had a change of mind?  On a previous append in another thread, I believe you wrote that you viewed this initial revving when pulling away as a positive aspect of the Mk3 CVT behaviour leading to a reduction in fuel consumption and CO2 emissions.  In what you wrote above, this initial revving could be interpreted as an attempt to cover up a flaw or deficiency in the design of the engine.
I've not changed my mind but may be re-interpreting the evidence. The lower end of the rev range is tuned for economy (probably Atkinson cycle which has been mentioned in some of the Mk 3 reviews) which isn't good for accelerating although it provides enough power to cruise very smoothly (eg 60 mph at around 2000 rpm). The initial revving of the CVT version on pulling away gets the car quickly up to a speed where it can then drop back into the economy mode. Hence, if someone with the manual gearbox is trying to accelerate with the revs a bit low then the engine is going to struggle (not recommended at the best of times but particularly with a new engine). However, we need more info from edam about the symptoms before jumping to conclusions. It could well be that something has escaped Honda's quality control.
2022 HR-V Elegance, previously 2020 Jazz Crosstar

edam

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Re: Mk2 or Mk3??
« Reply #39 on: May 10, 2016, 12:01:17 PM »
I have been giving it a drive around this morning and the roughness is most noticeable at about 1500rpm in 1st gear
If you are stuck in traffic doing 8 -10 mph then its not pleasant to drive.
Also when you are changing up then the revs drop to the rough area again so I'm having to keep the revs up more.
I must also add that's its a secondhand Mk3 with 4000 miles on the clock
« Last Edit: May 10, 2016, 12:03:54 PM by edam »

ColinS

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Re: Mk2 or Mk3??
« Reply #40 on: May 10, 2016, 08:38:08 PM »
You have a fault.  I don't see any issue like this on mine, you can drive it at 1000 rpm and it runs smoothly but clearly does not accelerate well at such revs unless in first gear.

guest5679

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Re: Mk2 or Mk3??
« Reply #41 on: May 11, 2016, 09:52:51 AM »
... I've not changed my mind but may be re-interpreting the evidence. ...

I wish someone from Honda would explain why they changed the behaviour of the CVT in the Mk3 Jazz.  Loyal customers should not be left in a position of interpreting the evidence.  If a good explanation were forthcoming, and I agreed with what Honda are trying to achieve, I might be more inclined to buy a Mk3 Jazz.

Some months ago now, I sent an email to Honda UK/Europe asking for explanations on why they changed the behaviour of the CVT and the other aspects of the Jazz that are preventing me from ordering a Mk3.  They simply forwarded the email to my local dealer.  And, of course, the dealer could not provide any explanations and, most disappointingly, they were not prepared to intervene on my behalf.  Their basic philosophy is that they sell what they are given.  "Theirs not to reason why ..."

John Ratsey

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Re: Mk2 or Mk3??
« Reply #42 on: May 11, 2016, 10:17:29 AM »
I have been giving it a drive around this morning and the roughness is most noticeable at about 1500rpm in 1st gear
If you are stuck in traffic doing 8 -10 mph then its not pleasant to drive.
Also when you are changing up then the revs drop to the rough area again so I'm having to keep the revs up more.
I must also add that's its a secondhand Mk3 with 4000 miles on the clock
There's definitely something not right: The engine should be smoother at 1500rpm than at 1000rpm.

Take it back to be fixed - it should be easy to demonstrate the problem without leaving the dealer's forecourt.
2022 HR-V Elegance, previously 2020 Jazz Crosstar

edam

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Re: Mk2 or Mk3??
« Reply #43 on: May 11, 2016, 11:12:19 AM »
It went in this morning and was checked out but they could not find anything wrong.
I test drove it with a tech. and it was Ok as well.
I will put some Momentum in it and see how it goes.
Also where do I put my trolley £1 coin . The little cubby hole behind the steering column has gone.!!!

guest5679

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Re: Mk2 or Mk3??
« Reply #44 on: May 11, 2016, 11:36:11 AM »
... When I decided to trade in my 7 1/2 yr old manual Jazz Mk 2 for an automatic, I was choosing between a Jazz Mk 3 SE or a VW 1.4 TSI Golf Match. ...

I've sent you a personal message regarding your choice of a Honda Jazz instead of a VW Golf.

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