Author Topic: What are the benefits and downside of hybrids  (Read 6232 times)

peteo48

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Re: What are the benefits and downside of hybrids
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2019, 02:49:21 PM »
My understanding is that a lot depends on how you use the car. When I bought my last Jazz I did look at the hybrid option on the Toyota Yaris but ruled the car out not because it was a hybrid but because, in space terms, the Jazz wins hands down. You would need to go up to the Auris or Corolla.

Everything I've read indicates that a hybrid (not a PHEV) works very well in a short stop/start type driving pattern (that would suit me actually) but the mpg becomes mediocre at sustained cruising speeds. Carrying all that extra weight of a battery and a motor must be an issue here.

The stop/start system works well on a hybrid though as you glide off in EV mode even if only for seconds but it makes for a much less clunky experience.

On balance I'm not convinced they are the long term answer to less polluting cars.

JazzMusic

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Re: What are the benefits and downside of hybrids
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2020, 03:52:14 PM »
A little bit late for participating the discussion but I adore the hybrids after having owned a ZE1 for 10 years and a ZE2 for five years. Unless you'd like a racecar the instant low-end torque of a hybrid is very good esp. coupled with CVT. You can drive a hybrid as any other car but with a little bit of effort you can reach a very low fuel consumption.

Most important advantage: you can fill up the range extender (well, fuel tank) anytime, anywhere. Let's see what people think about full EV when they run out of electrons or the charging station doesn't work for some reason or you queue an hour to charge it another 30 minutes. EV drivers will learn the telephone number of the towing service by heart.

Maybe a little bit pessimistic about full EV but I don't trust the ongoing marketing hype about EV. The hybrid battery lasts 15+ years. The only thing a hybrid doesn't like is sitting around for weeks or months.

It's pretty a shame that Honda is not Toyota. If it wasn't so expensive I'd say byebye to Honda and would buy a new Corolla hybrid. The US gets the Accord Hybrid and the new Insight Hybrid since a few years. What did we get here in Europe? The CR-V hybrid was a good start and the new Jazz hybrid might be a good one too.

Jocko

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Re: What are the benefits and downside of hybrids
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2020, 07:16:42 PM »
I have never driven a hybrid, but my engineering experience tells me that the only way you can get more out of a tank of fuel is by improving the efficiency. Every time you convert energy from one form to another there are losses. When you convert chemical energy to mechanical energy there are efficiency losses. With a hybrid you convert chemical energy to mechanical energy, to electrical energy, to chemical energy, to electrical energy, to mechanical energy, with losses at every stage. A hybrid may make for a pleasant drive but I do not see how it makes a great difference to the amount of fuel used or the emissions created. As for "but with a little bit of effort you can reach a very low fuel consumption", you can do that with a standard ICE car. I think hybrids are just motor manufacturers pretending to go green.

peteo48

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Re: What are the benefits and downside of hybrids
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2020, 08:58:22 PM »
One thing I will say in favour of hybrids is that they do offer a very smooth driving experience around the town. I found that during a test drive in a Yaris back in early 2018 but I also find it when I take a taxi which, round our way, is a Prius more often than not.

JazzMusic

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Re: What are the benefits and downside of hybrids
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2020, 10:06:23 PM »
I have never driven a hybrid, but my engineering experience tells me that the only way you can get more out of a tank of fuel is by improving the efficiency. Every time you convert energy from one form to another there are losses. When you convert chemical energy to mechanical energy there are efficiency losses.
You're right about the losses involved but they are more than compensated by using a smaller ICE a hybrids allows (1.3 instead of 1.8 l). It would take a standard ICE of 1.8 l to match the same torque between 1000 and 3500 rpm like a 1.3 l hybrid. Above 3500 rpm the 1.8 l wins because the electro engine looses torque. But for a car from A to B these rpm regions are pretty rare (overtaking). In cruising mode (keeping 30 or 50 mph) the 1.3 consumes much less fuel than a 1.8, given the same car. Those +- 40 kg which the hybrid system adds to the car are only a small fraction of the weight of todays cars (2-3%). 

The electro engine is mainly/only active during acceleration and adds around 50% of torque (even more in a Toyota) to overcome the low torque of a small but efficient 1.3 l. But 170 Nm feels like a 1.8 l to the driver. While braking you get part of the energy back for the next accelerations.
The key of the lower fuel consumption of all hybrids is basically the use of a smaller and thus more efficient ICE.

If you drive a hybrid as it teaches you to (let it roll, lift the throttle, using the brakes rarely or only for a complete stop) you'll reach a lower fuel consumption than with a standard ICE. If someone drives a hybrid like any other ICE which is more or less 'digital' (0 or 1) he bought the wrong car. :) He will still reach higher mpg with a hybrid but the hybrid is capable to reach a territory of mpg numbers a standard ICE will never see.

One example: my former ZE1. Took the car over with 35 k miles and 50 mpg, Honda says fuel consumption is 70 mpg, I finally got 78.6 mpg lifetime (over 60k miles) and 89 mpg for the very best tank in summer. Not to forget the 30 miles trip from home to home (with one cold engine start) with 102 mpg. 
« Last Edit: January 05, 2020, 10:13:08 PM by JazzMusic »

culzean

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Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

peteo48

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Re: What are the benefits and downside of hybrids
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2020, 10:19:35 PM »
Interesting article. The Aussie car buying expert, John Cadogan, makes the same points about the headlong rush to EVs only with more swearing ;D

In short, he accepts man made climate change as a fact but feels the emphasis on EVs is crowding out alternatives.

sparky Paul

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Re: What are the benefits and downside of hybrids
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2020, 02:42:29 PM »
With a hybrid you convert chemical energy to mechanical energy, to electrical energy, to chemical energy, to electrical energy, to mechanical energy, with losses at every stage. A hybrid may make for a pleasant drive but I do not see how it makes a great difference to the amount of fuel used or the emissions created.

In a series hybrid, most of the time you are converting chemical energy to mechanical to electrical to mechanical. The batteries are only there to iron out the demand, storing any surplus or regeneration. The advantage of that is the engine can do it's own thing and run at peak efficiency.

All I can do is make an anecdotal real life comparison between the hybrid CR-V and the very similar 2017 diesel auto it replaced. With exactly the same sort of driving, mainly local and around town, the petrol hybrid averages just over 51mpg, whilst the diesel was doing around 43mpg. I don't think that's to be sniffed at for the size of car.

richardfrost

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Re: What are the benefits and downside of hybrids
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2020, 03:07:20 PM »
With a hybrid you convert chemical energy to mechanical energy, to electrical energy, to chemical energy, to electrical energy, to mechanical energy, with losses at every stage. A hybrid may make for a pleasant drive but I do not see how it makes a great difference to the amount of fuel used or the emissions created.

In a series hybrid, most of the time you are converting chemical energy to mechanical to electrical to mechanical. The batteries are only there to iron out the demand, storing any surplus or regeneration. The advantage of that is the engine can do it's own thing and run at peak efficiency.

All I can do is make an anecdotal real life comparison between the hybrid CR-V and the very similar 2017 diesel auto it replaced. With exactly the same sort of driving, mainly local and around town, the petrol hybrid averages just over 51mpg, whilst the diesel was doing around 43mpg. I don't think that's to be sniffed at for the size of car.
Having had a petrol CRV, a diesel Freelander, a diesel XTrail and a diesel CRV, this is exactly the experience I get from my hybrid RAV4. I am getting better then diesel performance (acceleration, power and consumption) with no effort from a 'petrol' car.

Jocko

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Re: What are the benefits and downside of hybrids
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2020, 03:13:40 PM »
According to Honda's WLTP figures the 2 litre 2WD hybrid CR-V gives 40.9 mpg and the AWD 38.7 mpg on the combined cycle.

https://www.honda.co.uk/content/dam/local/uk/cars/WLTP-PDF/19YM%20CR-V%20-%20WLTP%20Data.pdf

JazzMusic

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Re: What are the benefits and downside of hybrids
« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2020, 03:50:21 PM »
Diesel engines are good for taxis or for long distances. Around town and in traffic a diesel engine is not favored (hardly gets warm and low mpg).
The Diesel hype was pushed by the German manufacturers because customers wanted power/fun and high top-speed for their Autobahn and because they had no answer to hybrids.

Jocko

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Re: What are the benefits and downside of hybrids
« Reply #26 on: January 06, 2020, 04:01:26 PM »
Diesel car sales in the UK fell 21.8% last year.

sparky Paul

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Re: What are the benefits and downside of hybrids
« Reply #27 on: January 06, 2020, 04:15:53 PM »
According to Honda's WLTP figures the 2 litre 2WD hybrid CR-V gives 40.9 mpg and the AWD 38.7 mpg on the combined cycle.

https://www.honda.co.uk/content/dam/local/uk/cars/WLTP-PDF/19YM%20CR-V%20-%20WLTP%20Data.pdf

I know, I'm just telling you what it says on the fibometer now. I can get the other half to take a photo of it if you don't believe me.

The figure from the diesel was also from the fibometer. The diesel auto was doing less than the official figures, the hybrid is doing more.

sparky Paul

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Re: What are the benefits and downside of hybrids
« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2020, 04:20:44 PM »
Diesel car sales in the UK fell 21.8% last year.

The loss of cheap RFL from 2017, and the big improvement in modern petrol engines MPG will surely spell the end for diesels.

JazzMusic

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Re: What are the benefits and downside of hybrids
« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2020, 05:37:39 PM »
Diesel car sales in the UK fell 21.8% last year.
Switzerland is -12% while Germany still believes in Diesel with only -0.3% to last year. Ergo: don't buy a German car. :)

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