Author Topic: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.  (Read 15772 times)

Jocko

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Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2018, 10:27:34 AM »
The real blame, from what I read in these forums, is on Honda
Why they allow the brake lights to function with the ignition off baffles me. My Volvo was the same. Or is this new legislation?

culzean

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Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2018, 10:48:57 AM »
The real blame, from what I read in these forums, is on Honda
Why they allow the brake lights to function with the ignition off baffles me. My Volvo was the same. Or is this new legislation?

My first Civic (1996) allowed the brake lights to work with ignition off,  I remember parking the car once and as luck would have it walked past back of car and noticed brake lights were on - I opened the car and dabbed and released the brake pedal and they went off (2 x 21 watt bulbs plus high-level brake light would have soon flattened the battery).  As soon as I got home I adjusted brake switch position so that the brake pedal had to be pushed a bit further to light up brake lights,  the switch as shipped was right on the limit and a gnat landing on brake pedal would make brake lights work.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 10:58:01 AM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

ColinS

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Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2018, 10:52:56 AM »
My old Triumph 2000 used to dim the brake lights when the side lights were on.  I wonder why that never caught on?
« Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 10:56:40 AM by ColinS »

culzean

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Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2018, 10:57:08 AM »
I guess we are never going to agree on the use of brake lights but it is not all makes of car that make me lower my sun visor when stopped behind them, some don't seem to be as bright as others.  I have never been "blinded" but it can certainly be uncomfortable.

The real blame, from what I read in these forums, is on Honda who design a car which encourages drivers not to drive to the highway code.

Brake lights are to show the car behind that you are braking http://www.highwaycode.info/rule/114.  If you are concerned that a driver approaching you from behind is not aware that you have stopped, sure keep your foot on the brake pedal, but take it off once they have stopped and use your handbrake.  In extreme circumstances, like when I join the back of a queue on the motorway, I briefly use my hazard warning lights.

If I am stopped and last in a queue I  keep my eyes on rear view mirror and if a vehicle seems to be approaching too fast I will flash brake lights.  I rarely sit for more than a very short time before using handbrake, as I have been comprehensively dazzled by others brake lights and have pulled visor down on occasions. 

IMHO it is just bad manners to leave brake lights dazzling others.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

Jocko

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Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2018, 11:11:34 AM »
My old Triumph 2000 used to dim the brake lights when the side lights were on.  I wonder why that never caught on?
My Austin 1800 was exactly the same. It must have been a BL thing.

peteo48

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Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2018, 05:12:23 PM »
Good link there Colin. It's pretty clear that you shouldn't keep the brake lights on. This means, presumably, that nearly every driver of an automatic vehicle is in breach of the highway code as it stands.

ColinS

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Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2018, 05:36:15 PM »
Good link there Colin. It's pretty clear that you shouldn't keep the brake lights on. This means, presumably, that nearly every driver of an automatic vehicle is in breach of the highway code as it stands.
Thank you, but I don't think that is necessarily true.  I had an automatic back in the 80s and always dropped into neutral or park and applied the handbrake.  I think the tendency to use the foot brake on the CVT is because of the auto idle stop.  Users of those will put me right if I am wrong, I'm sure

Jocko

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Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
« Reply #22 on: February 18, 2018, 06:06:47 PM »
I never even stuck my automatics into Neutral. Just put the handbrake on. That was more than enough o hold them.

peteo48

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Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2018, 06:11:02 PM »
http://www.policeuk.com/forum/index.php?/topic/18000-sitting-in-traffic-with-brake-lights/

A bit of a debate here on whether sitting with your brake lights on is actually an offence - even the police can't seem to agree. Interestingly somebody mentions stop start systems and the fact that if, indeed, it is an offence, then all owners of auto idle stop systems are committing an offence because the auto idle stop system will not work unless you keep your foot on the footbrake.

Potentially there could be a massive mis-selling issue here if it is indeed the case that Honda and other manufacturers are selling you an inherently illegal system. What it needs is for a CVT driver to be banged up for this to happen.

So I come right back round to my original question. Let's say I want to use the auto idle stop system on my new CVT but I don't want to infringe the highway code OR potentially commit a traffic offence. I can't can I? Because if I stop at the lights, shift into neutral, the auto stop won't work. I would have to manually restart the engine.

guest1372

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Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2018, 06:33:57 PM »
Our family fleet Jaguar has an electronic handbrake, and it's so easy to use at the lights. It disengages itself when you accelerate away or select reverse. You can hold the switch to work against it but that is never really necessary.

I think proper off & idle off are two different modes, presumably fuel pressure and certain other things are maintained for instant restarting from idle. The push button start diesel Jaguar is almost instant from idle off, but can take a second from proper off, I guess that's down to glow plugs and temperatures.
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Jocko

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Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2018, 06:36:34 PM »
I think that under the construction and use regulations brake lights are designed not to cause dazzle(!) and as such you could not be prosecuted for sitting with them on. If the position of the lights had been disturbed by accident damage or if you had fitted higher wattage bulbs or LED bulbs then the construction and use regs are no longer being met, so perhaps an offence is being committed.
Does anyone know anyone who has been reported for sitting with their brake lights on, or even been told off, by a police officer, for doing so?

ColinS

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Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2018, 06:47:45 PM »
http://www.policeuk.com/forum/index.php?/topic/18000-sitting-in-traffic-with-brake-lights/
Interesting thread, thank you.
So I come right back round to my original question. Let's say I want to use the auto idle stop system on my new CVT but I don't want to infringe the highway code OR potentially commit a traffic offence. I can't can I? Because if I stop at the lights, shift into neutral, the auto stop won't work. I would have to manually restart the engine.
I too would like to know the definitive answer to this, purely out if interest.

andruec

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Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
« Reply #27 on: February 18, 2018, 07:11:36 PM »
The real blame, from what I read in these forums, is on Honda who design a car which encourages drivers not to drive to the highway code.
But it's not just Honda. It seems to be an industry standard :-/

peteo48

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Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
« Reply #28 on: February 18, 2018, 08:17:46 PM »
Indeed it is. The only system that seems to avoid this would be on a hybrid where the petrol engine shuts off so you can go into neutral and take off again in pure electric mode.

But the auto idle stop on any automatic - not just a Honda or even just a CVT - works on the brake pedal. No foot on the footbrake, no auto idle stop. Or, to be more precise, the car will stop but not restart. The restart is triggered by removing your foot from the brake pedal.

I will be turning mine off and going into neutral and handbrake at traffic lights. I am not bothered by brake lights but clearly many people are and the highway code is crystal clear - you absolutely should not sit at a traffic light or, indeed, any other situation where the car is stopped for anything other than a brief period with your brake lights on.

Why can't car manufacturers devise a system that would allow the engine to be restarted by pressing the accelerator? Problem solved surely. You can then safely go into neutral at lights as you would do in a manual car.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 08:23:03 PM by peteo48 »

andruec

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Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
« Reply #29 on: February 18, 2018, 08:54:22 PM »
Because if I stop at the lights, shift into neutral, the auto stop won't work. I would have to manually restart the engine.
Yes it will. As I have already pointed out selecting neutral does not restart the engine. Nor does it interfere with idle stop in any other way. The engine will restart perfectly well if you release the footbrake, move the gear selector to any other position or adjust the steering wheel.

I did actually email Honda about this shortly after I got the car however their response was pathetic. They just reiterated what the manual said about idle stop, completely failing to address my concerns.

But..as I noted - not applying the handbrake is endemic these days. Almost no-one bothers to take their foot off the foot brake when stationary. It's possible that the vast majority of drivers are now driving automatics but I doubt it. It's valid to complain about the design of idle stop but choosing not to avail yourself of it or suffering the hassle of manually switching off seems silly. One less set of brake lights in a traffic queue is not going to make any difference.

As for the law it makes sense to me. As another poster said: The rule is that you mustn't dazzle other users with your brake lights but if properly fitted brake lights are designed not to dazzle there is no problem. I can honestly say that brake lights in my eyes have never been anything other than a minor irritation. Anyone being genuinely dazzled is either behind a car with defective lights or needs to see an optician.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 09:01:37 PM by andruec »

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