Replacing Front Control Arm details?

[ansys]

Hi everyone,
I found this great video out there that shows the basics for replacing the front control arms on the 1st Gen Fits.

However, it's pretty basic and doesn't have very many details... 
- What are the torque specs for those bolts?
- When they lift the brake assembly when putting it back together, how high should I lift it?  Just enough to take weight off of the components?
- where do they put that crowbar near the rear control arm bushing? and what for?
- anything else I should watch out for? or that isn't as straight forward or easy as in the video?

Thanks for your help!

[Jocko]

My son-in-law, a very experienced time served mechanic did mine for me, and it was a real pain. I assisted (held the lamp) and the job was a lot harder than it looked. Removing it is straightforward (I had bought a new link arm so we just ground that off), but getting everything back into place was a struggle.
Torque settings are 12mm bolt - 69 Nm and 14mm bolt 93 Nm.
If you haven't already got a link to this, see here:
http://www.hondafitjazz.com/manual.html

[sparky Paul]

That crowbar is inserted to push down on the control arm while you split the balljoint taper with a thump of the hammer. You just have to fiddle about to find the best place to exert the required downward pressure.

He jacks the hub up because the tightening of the wishbone bolts should be done with the full weight of the car on the suspension. Either jack the hub up to normal ride height, or tighten them with the car on the ground.

The chap in the video doesn't seem to be a fan of torque wrenches.

[guest1372]

I needed an extension bar on the socket to undo the chassis bolts - quite hard work for most of the thread, but found that I could not undo the castle nut that held the ball joint without rounding it off.  I was using 12 sided sockets, maybe a 6 sided would have been better but the castle nut has less metal than a normal nut.  Had to angle grind it off.  Slightly surprised that they can undo it with a spanner with only 2 points of contact in the video, I had used lots of penetrating fluid in the previous 24 hours.  Removing the driveshaft nut and pulling the hub away is necessary to gain access for a socket on this.  It might help to slightly loosen the driveshaft nut before lifting the car off the ground.

The replacement ball joint had nyloc nuts and felt much beefier.  Don't disturb the bolts between the suspension strut and knuckle as these have a degree of adjustment, I checked wheel alignment after the job and it was still spot on.

The ball joint has to be fitted before you re-insert the driveshaft to enable a socket to go on, it's possible to tighten it with a spanner instead but then you don't know the torque.  I found the arm required quite a lot of persuasion to go back in to the rear chassis mount point - much twisting, levering and banging, so undid the ball joint again to fit the chassis mounts. 

It helped to remove the front black plastic under tray as well for better access.
--
TG


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[jonathan]

ANSYS;

Why are you replacing part, are their symptoms current one needs replacing?

[culzean]

I was using 12 sided sockets, maybe a 6 sided would have been better but the castle nut has less metal than a normal nut. 

I never use double hex sockets on any bolt / nut that is liable to be tight / rusted,  they are responsible for more rounded off nuts than anything else - even the rear wheel bearing nut on a Jazz needs a 30mm single hex socket due to 160nm torque.

A 500mm breaker bar with 1/2" drive is a good addition to any tool kit 

Everything is a lot easier if you have the car on a lift - but how many have access to one ? - a cold wet driveway is not a pleasant place to work.

A bit of heat from a gas torch and some proper penetrating oil (ie - not WD40) like plusgas  or penoil (penoil contains Molybdenum disulphide) will help a lot,  but not always possible to use heat on some nuts.  Hitting things with a hammer is not always a good idea as it can cause cracking and subsequent failure.  You can get proper ball joint splitter wedges to hammer into the gap and force taper out.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Laser-1793-Ball-Joint-Separator/dp/B003AN3AOW
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Draper-Expert-63770-Joint-Seperator/dp/B000MPPXR8

[guest5079]

Watching the Youtube video was enlightening but looking at the video, when coming to the nut on the ball joint it appeared that there was enough room to get the 'ring' end of the spanner he used onto the  nut which surely is a lot safer than using the open end. Also, if you can get the 'ring' end onto the ball joint nut then there is the possibility of getting a bit of leverage by carefully  using another ring spanner on the open end of the spanner being used.
I bet a garage would not admit to doing that job in 7 minutes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[sparky Paul]

You can get proper ball joint splitter wedges to hammer into the gap and force taper out.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Laser-1793-Ball-Joint-Separator/dp/B003AN3AOW
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Draper-Expert-63770-Joint-Seperator/dp/B000MPPXR8

The problem with those is that you wouldn't get either of them on the ball joint without removing the driveshaft from the hub. Sure, you could take the bush to subframe bolts out first and do that, but balljoint splitters often need a tap to help them break the taper anyway, and it's a lot easier when it's not all flopping about. Also, as TG says, it's a lot easier to get the bushes back into the subframe without the balljoint attached.

Fork or wedge type splitters are horrible things, I have one in my selection of splitters and pullers, but it's only ever used as a last resort. They can easily damage the machined face of the hub if used without care, which could then cause damage to the balljoint rubber boot. No thanks.

A tap on the side with a hammer whilst barring down hard should never cause any subsequent problems, you shouldn't have to thrash it to release the taper. I would think that this would be the method used by most garage mechanics, very rare you see them messing about with balljoint splitters.

[ansys]

here's another video of the same job on a Honda Odyssey that has a little more explanation.  The process is the same, and even the part might be the same as well?? depending on how Honda does their part commonality.

Thanks for all the tips and advice!  My luck with pretty much all my DIY is that there's always at least 1 nut or bolt that I just can't for the life of me remove.  I'm hoping this time is different (though I imagine it'll just be worse than normal).

As for why I'm doing this.  The car 'failed' it's yearly inspection because the inner-rear bushing has some cracks showing on it.  Other symptoms are that on occasion you can hear that suspension knock when going over speed bumps.  The shop also wants to charge me $300 for replacing the two lower control arms...  For a car that has other woes and who knows how much longer it will last, I'm not sure how much money I want to dump in a 15+ yr old car.

[guest1372]

Here's a few more images. (Log in / register to view)

Unfortunately there is no room to put a ring spanner over the castle nut, so lots of PlusGas (or other penetrating fluid) and fingers crossed.  You can't use heat because the driveshaft gaiter is too close.  Once removed it separated with a tap easily, no splitter needed.  That's not a washer under the nut but the shoulder is part of the nut so there is even less metal to turn against.  I cut the nut above the shoulder, then dipped into it with the angle grinder to leave a wafer thin section that I could knock off without damaging the knuckle mating surface.

The end of the front chassis bolt sticks out through the welded nut and the exposed thread is full of dirt/corrosion so add some fluid/oil to help it release.

There are different bushes available, I think the UK Jazz had the bush changed to a more compliant one after the first year.

Removing the driveshaft nut can be done on the jacks with a piece of steel angle and protecting the threads.

It took more than 7 minutes to undo one nut, let alone the whole job....
--
TG

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[culzean]

It took more than 7 minutes to undo one nut, let alone the whole job....
--
TG

That is the problem with with working on bits that live under the car,  corrosion of threads means that you often have to take a lot extra time to get stuff undone, or resort to angle grinder.

Whenever I have to do brakes, swap wheels or anything that involves getting under the car I take the opportunity to spray motorbike chain lube onto any exposed nuts and threads,  as well as brake pipe unions where flexible pipes get connected to cylinders or solid pipe,  also spray plugs and sockets for ABS etc.  Also suspension bushes etc.  the chain lubes are rubber friendly (motorbike chains have X or O ring seals in the links) and go on thin to penetrate but soon thicken up (they have to be tough and sticky to avoid being flung off the chain as it whizzes round the sprockets).   Chain waxes are also available which are reputedly even more clingy than the greasy ones.

[ansys]

just an update for everyone... I couldn't get the ball joint off for the life of me.  It was a major pain in the rear.  I ended up admitting defeat and getting someone else to replace the bushings for me.  Thanks for all the help though, I sure learned quite a bit.