Author Topic: Hello all  (Read 4999 times)

sparky Paul

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Hello all
« on: July 31, 2017, 12:09:53 PM »
Hello all, just bought a Silver 2008 Jazz Mk.I as a runabout for the other half.

I'm impressed with the car on the whole, some really neat design touches... the only problem I have with it is the steering. Other half is happy with it, but I find it horrible - twitchy and sticky around the straight ahead, and it doesn't seem keen to centre from the left. Having read some of the threads on the forum, it seems to be a common issue.

First job will be a pair of tyres on the front, being delivered tomorrow, and check the front tracking which I'm sure is toed out. Otherwise, it's a great little car, so I intend to bottom this problem and find out what goes wrong with these EPS racks.

Ah, the joys of used cars.  ;)

Jocko

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Re: Hello all
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2017, 01:07:15 PM »
Welcome Paul. I assume from your login that an electrical power steering should be right up your street! Let us know how the tyres and tracking affect things.

sparky Paul

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Re: Hello all
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2017, 03:17:20 PM »
Thanks for the welcome Jocko 8)

Well, tyres fitted and tracking fiddled with this morning. It was toed out about 2 degrees, should be zero according to Mr Haynes, a manual was helpfully included with the car.  ;)

It's certainly improved the feeling of the steering a great deal, it's lighter, not wandering, and the stickiness about the centre has all but gone. Still not keen to centre though, this seems to be affected by road camber - fine on the crown of the road, the dead patch on the steering moves to the left or right of straight ahead, depending which camber you are on, left or right. Wierd. To be honest, the whole geometry settings on the front read a bit wierd.

We'll see how it goes, perhaps some material here for a more detailed contribution once I find my way around the car. I'm very hands on, and I know that these forums can be invaluable, so I hope I might be able to help out some other forum members along the way.

The Jazz I bought seems mechanically good, FSH and a box file of old MOTs & receipts... the bodywork is a bit rough though, I think Mr Magoo has had it for the last 6 years. Fortunately, a friend of mine is a semi-retired old fashioned panel beater & sprayer, so the bodge repairs to the bodywork will be fixed in due course.  ;)
« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 03:32:59 PM by sparky Paul »

Jocko

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Re: Hello all
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2017, 06:09:37 PM »
I tried coasting with the engine off, to see how my steering felt. I turned the ignition from On back to Acc, then as soon as engine stopped, back to On. I was then able to feel the steering without the power assist. You may want to try the same, to see if it is the rack or the power assist which is giving you the dead spot.

sparky Paul

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Re: Hello all
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2017, 09:59:05 PM »
The steering actually feels fairly responsive around the centre now the tracking is about right, the only only odd thing is the lack of centreing. It certainly doesn't have a lot of the feel of the road wheels, but I think that's a characteristic of this EPS.

I'll try a few things out when I get chance, she's happy using it now so I won't see it for the next few days anyway. I think a read through some of the old threads on the subject is in order, then have a play with it. If I find anything worthwhile to improve it, I'll roll it up into a thread.

The whole stickiness/dead spot thing does feel like friction in the rack, and I read something elsewhere about problems with rack lubrication, might be worth looking into. I might even get another used rack/eps assembly to dismantle, secondhand units are fairly cheap.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 10:03:15 PM by sparky Paul »

culzean

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Re: Hello all
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2017, 08:44:26 AM »
The steering actually feels fairly responsive around the centre now the tracking is about right, the only only odd thing is the lack of centreing. It certainly doesn't have a lot of the feel of the road wheels, but I think that's a characteristic of this EPS.

Fortunately (or not depending on if your EPS is giving problems) I seem to recall that Honda were the originators of electrical power steering,  both my wife and I had 2003 Jazz for quite a while and never a minutes problem with EPS - steering feel is 'a bit different' to hydraulic P/S but is a lot more efficient and in my experience of the Jazz,  trouble free.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

Jocko

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Re: Hello all
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2017, 09:38:07 AM »
Other than the obvious "assist" I am not aware of the power steering on my 2006 Jazz. My Volvo S40 felt very light in comparison. I suppose the ultimate challenge to the manufacturer is to make the power steering feel like non power steering, while keeping the advantages. I certainly couldn't drive a car and be able to tell if it has electric, hydraulic or even no power steering (the latter possibly when parking).

sparky Paul

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Re: Hello all
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2017, 02:48:10 PM »
I don't think the EPS has to work hard in the Jazz. With the engine off, the steering feels much like small cars with alloys used to feel like in the old days without power steering. Our other car is a big heavy MPV with fat tyres, and you need arms like Popeye to budge the steering in that with the engine off!

guest1372

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Re: Hello all
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2017, 02:48:26 PM »
Just my 2p, I originally found the EPS weird especially on full lock in car parks but am happy with it now.  I find it quite useful that it 'sticks' a few degrees off centre either side when travelling up long curves on the A1 or M1.
--
TG

sparky Paul

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Re: Hello all
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2017, 03:03:07 PM »
Just my 2p, I originally found the EPS weird especially on full lock in car parks but am happy with it now.  I find it quite useful that it 'sticks' a few degrees off centre either side when travelling up long curves on the A1 or M1.

The more I read, the more feel some of this common issue is just down to the 'characteristics' of the EPS. Certainly after changing the tyres and straightening up the tracking, it now feels far more in the realms of 'to be gotten used to', rather than how it felt initially, which was disconcertingly duff!

Then, I go and read a post which complains about the steering, and says that a new rack has fixed it. It's all a bit confusing to say the least...

Jocko

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Re: Hello all
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2017, 03:25:55 PM »
Unless you have a kidney to sell I'd forget about a new rack. In my opinion it would have to be an MOT fail before I would consider buying a new rack, and that's with my staff discount.
At low speeds my steering is impossibly heavy, and I have skinny steel wheels, at 32 psig, all round.

sparky Paul

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Re: Hello all
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2017, 06:13:23 PM »
At low speeds my steering is impossibly heavy, and I have skinny steel wheels, at 32 psig, all round.

I can't say that ours is like that, low speed steering seems fine, apart from the reluctance to centre. I certainly couldn't justify a new rack, the car's value would never warrant that. There are plenty of cheap, "guaranteed", used racks about, but it's a fair bit of work to find out your "guaranteed" rack is worse than the one you have removed.

It would be interesting to take apart a rack with the stiff defect, to see if you can locate the cause. The stickiness that is often described certainly sounds mechanical, rather than a result of power assistance problems, as these should disappear at speed when little or no assistance is applied.

VicW

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Re: Hello all
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2017, 07:33:34 PM »
I am on my fifth Jazz in eleven years and have never had cause to criticise the steering except on the GD models where the steering about the centre position was a little vague. I found that this was something you very soon allowed for and it became unnoticeable.
The steering has always been smooth and even with no stiff patches and has self centred from all degrees of lock.
My only other comment is that on all the cars the steering wheel has been very slightly turned to the right when on a straight, flat road with no pulling to one side and with even tyre wear so I have never done anything about it.

Vic.

RichardA

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Re: Hello all
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2017, 08:12:06 PM »
Hello and welcome. :)

sparky Paul

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Re: Hello all
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2017, 08:47:04 PM »
Thanks for the welcome  8)

...and thanks everyone for the interesting steering-related comments.

I would guess that our GE3 does not centre from about 30-40° or so to the left on straight ahead on a left road camber, and the same to the right on a right camber. On the crown of the road, it will not centre 20° or so either side of straight ahead. Odd!
« Last Edit: August 04, 2017, 12:48:57 PM by sparky Paul »

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