Author Topic: Electric cars  (Read 11063 times)

pb82gh3

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #30 on: July 14, 2017, 09:02:33 AM »
And what about hackers?- I can imagine them having a field day. The whole country could be brought  to a grinding halt by those pesky Russians.

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #31 on: July 14, 2017, 10:36:43 AM »
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/98964/electric-car-growth-to-ramp-up-pressure-on-energy-providers
That problem can be addressed by having variable tariffs depending on time of day when the power is used which can be easily implemented once everyone has a smart meter.

If energy companies ever introduce variable tariffs they will be  Tarrif 1. expensive.   Tarriff 2. very expensive.
And a special meter on your car charger  and government get 80% in tax.  It is the fact that you needed to keep coal fired stations running all the time (can't suddenly switch them on and off) that bought in 'economy 7' as otherwise electricity generated overnight would have gone to waste,  with gas powered it is easier to control the energy that is generated,  and with solar you don't get any at night,  and with wind not so much.

Our leader blind faith in Solar (only works in daytime and in UK makes most of its power when not needed,  in daylight in summer)  and wind (only works when the wind blows in 'goldilocks zone',  but if wind blows too much or not enough does not work either).

Governments have a great track record of waiting until enough people have been lured into a fuel source and then when they are committed introducing a tax on that fuel.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2017, 11:09:36 AM by culzean »
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peteo48

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #32 on: July 14, 2017, 12:49:51 PM »
One of the issues with renewables - especially wind - is that it often produces surges of power which can overload the grid. They then have to be turned off by the grid.

I am no expert but I've read a bit about the inadequacy of the grid - its lack of flexibility. Wider use of electric vehicles, especially if charged at home and at night will even out that particular trough in demand.

Then there's Elon Musk and his Tesla power wall. He certainly thinks battery storage is the future.

VicW

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #33 on: July 14, 2017, 03:06:24 PM »
That problem can be addressed by having variable tariffs depending on time of day when the power is used which can be easily implemented once everyone has a smart meter.

This system already exists in the form of the Economy 7 tariff.
The Smart Meter body has recently admitted that smart meters are not going to be compulsory so not every household will have one.

Vic.

RichardA

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #34 on: July 23, 2017, 03:25:43 PM »
Of the current crop of electric vehicles I think the PHEV models are probably the best bet. Assuming you have your home charger you can probably run "electric" for a load of your normal running about. In my case that would be about 50 - 60% of my motoring. You then have the "hybrid mode" for the rest. The Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV does about 30 miles on battery alone.

I worked with a couple of engineers who had Outlanders as company vehicles,  they say don't rely on more than 20 miles on a full battery (it is a heavy vehicle and the battery weighs 500kg) - after that 30mpg and only a relatively small fuel tank for the size of the vehicle.

Based on that it is incredible that South East Coast Ambulance use these as paramedic response vehicles.
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Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #35 on: July 23, 2017, 03:42:32 PM »

auntyneddy

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #36 on: July 26, 2017, 11:26:40 AM »
It is ironic that HM Government has announced the ending of petrol and diesel car sales in the UK come 2040.
I have just read an  E mail from my Brother in Canada. He moves in far higher circles than I. It seems he was in conversation with somebody important to do with BC power. I assume that British Columbia only has one power company. However the gist of the conversation was that British Columbia is at present time unable to cope with the increased  power demand that will come from electric vehicles. I assume that all of British Columbia's electricity comes from Hydro electric schemes. The government/power company will have to build at least one if not more power plants to cope.
Going back to UK Governments announcement I do wonder if the oil companies will take it lying down.
Another point very rarely mentioned, I believe concrete is one of the most polluting materials. Yet here we are building this that and the other to save the planet. Lithium is a rare earth commodity  I believe, without the huge amount of copper required for motors generators etc. Why on earth can't all the interested parties sit down and work out the relative costs savings. I would suggest while petrol cars pollute diesels definitely do, if we get rid of them how much pollution will be caused by the production of  all the new power stations/wind turbines/solar panels and all of the environmental damage caused by mining and the new factories needed for the 'new' technology. The oil industry is here, the infrastructure is here revised figures tell us oil reserves are far greater than at first believed and are the oil producing countries going to sit back in penury? We have experienced what happens when they can't agree internally and enough of our armed forces have suffered as the result. How bad will it be if we in the west tell them to stick their oil. Boy is this a conversation piece.

pb82gh3

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #37 on: July 26, 2017, 11:46:49 AM »
These are the factors the environmentalists conveniently omit from their arguments. Electric cars with zero emissions alone don't tell anything like the whole story. Combine that with UK's lamentable electricity production "planning" - we are frighteningly near to blackouts and rationing should a hard winter hit us, even with a tiny number of electric cars and hybrids - and you have a vivid demonstration of the incompetence  of the Department of Energy and Climate Change.

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #38 on: July 26, 2017, 12:00:34 PM »
If you have not already seen it, watch this presentation. And it doesn't even touch on where the electricity will come from!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BWJcpesr6A

peteo48

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #39 on: July 26, 2017, 12:59:56 PM »
I guess a lot depends on the grid and how that works. Figures I've seen indicate that 95% of EV charging is done at night when the grid is relatively quiet and can probably run on renewables. There are huge strides being made in battery technology as well enabling storage. I am no expert but I don't think you can just dismiss the potential demise of fossil fuels as unrealistic or impossible. 2040 is 23 years hence. That is a positive eternity in technological terms.

At some point oil will run out even if reserves are higher than we first thought and much of the remaining oil will be hard to get at like the tar sands in Canada. We should be aiming for a world free of fossil fuels even if that does mean nuclear to provide a baseload.

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #40 on: July 26, 2017, 04:49:08 PM »
Figures I've seen indicate that 95% of EV charging is done at night when the grid is relatively quiet and can probably run on renewables.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/25/new-diesel-petrol-cars-banned-uk-roads-2040-government-unveils/

The grid is probably only quiet between 12 midnight and 5 am - most electric vehicles need a longer charge time than that.

Solar power does not work at night,  and in winter in UK we have a lot of night and not much day, we also have a lot of clouds in UK which reduce output of solar.   I drive past a lot of wind farms and often see most or all of the generators not rotating,  wind often drops at night when the driver of wind ie. mainly the difference in temperature between land and sea, tend to equalise out.  The truth is we no longer have a steady, reliable source of electrical energy once we go away from coal, gas and nuclear.  Our energy planners live on a different planet to us mere mortals,  a place where the sun shines 24/7 and the wind is always blowing in the 'goldilocks zone' of 20 to 40 mph where wind power is viable.

Storing gigawatts of power in batteries is gonna need an awful lot of batteries and infrastructure, and we all know that a charged battery is like a bomb,  put too many in one place and you have another potential Chernobyl. 

electric vehicles - the inconvenient truth video
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6GeHnMwl1c     
at about 11 minutes in even the CEO of Panasonic batteries (who make batteries for Tesla) says Elon Musk is wasting his time trying to store large amounts of energy using batteries.

Oh,  and has anyone noticed that when electricity is used in a vehicle the makers don't classify it as a fuel,  because apparently some vehicles can go many miles without using any fuel.

I would have more faith in a government that scrapped the HS2 white elephant vanity project that is out of date even before they start building it and spent the money on new nuclear power stations.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2017, 07:07:28 PM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

peteo48

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #41 on: July 27, 2017, 10:50:02 AM »
Agree on HS2 and nuclear. I think we need a supply of energy that can meet what I think they call baseload. I also wonder what has happened to nuclear fusion?

bill888

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #42 on: July 27, 2017, 11:16:14 AM »
Perhaps the oil companies will propose building clean oil powered electricity power stations to cope with all these electric cars :-)
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culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #43 on: July 27, 2017, 12:00:31 PM »
Agree on HS2 and nuclear. I think we need a supply of energy that can meet what I think they call baseload. I also wonder what has happened to nuclear fusion?


For me Nuclear fusion is in the same basket as self driving cars on our standard unmodified roads mixing with normal traffic,  a nice idea but unachievable in practice.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #44 on: July 27, 2017, 01:11:49 PM »
"Self driving cars", Level 3, will never be a success as they still require an alert human to supervise them. However, "Driverless cars", Level 4 and 5 will work and could take to the road today if the powers that be wished it. Even at their current level they are safer than a car driven by a human driver.

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