Clubjazz - Honda Jazz & HR-V Forums
Honda Jazz Forums => Honda Jazz Mk2 2008-2015 => Topic started by: Shantijoe on March 31, 2022, 12:35:48 PM
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Hi All
This car has only 40K miles and has been trouble free until now.
It started losing power 10 minutes from home but managed to get home on low revs.
I've seen an older thread about the Throttle Position Sensor and Ignition Coil Sensor Wire.
I don't have the device which reads out the fault so hope someone has more experience than I do before I have it towed to a garage?
Many thanks, joe :o
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Basic OBD2 readers can be got very cheap these days, between £10 and 20 typically. It might well be worth getting one just to see what codes it comes up with, very easy to use, plug in and follow the instructions, a couple of button presses usually.
Basic ones will only give you the system at fault, not necessarily the actual reason (e.g. difference between open circuit or short circuit) but it'll tell you where to start, for example "cylinder 3 misfire".
You never know it might be something very simple you can fix yourself and be well worth the cost.
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Thanks for replying, I'll try a code reader as you suggest.
I'm wondering if breakdown services carry them? I'm with Green Flag,
best wishes, joe
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If your breakdown cover will include getting them out to look at it, they'll certainly be able to see what it says is wrong, OBD2 fault codes is usually the first thing they'll check.
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Thanks for the Code Reader advice!
P0203 and P0303 are both Cylinder 3 misfire codes so rather than drive it 200 miles home I've taken it to a garage I haven't used...
I hope it's a faulty connection or Spark plug as at only 40K miles a Fuel Injector replacement would be beyond my pension,
any advice before I start negociating with the garage would be very welcome,
Many Thanks, joe
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Ignition is way more likely than fuel, quite a few others have had this issue. I'm sure someone will point you at the likely culprit from their experience (my Jazz is later and different). Coils are a likely candidate from what I've gleaned, usual thing is to swap coils between cylinders and see if the fault goes with it.
Good you identified the issue, it helps show the garage that you are clued up.
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Hiya
Thanks for your advice. The garage just called and think it's the Engine Management System which needs replacing.
I'm going to ask them to swap the coils as you suggest... watch this space,
best wishes, joe
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Better take out a second mortgage.
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I would suggest that the ECU (engine/electronic control unit) is probably the least likely thing to go wrong. Sounds like the garage are just employing the "shotgun" diagnostic system, throw something in there and see what it hits, then say it's probably that. Do they actually have any evidence to support that it's the ECU, I doubt it. ECU's are generally extremely reliable. It could of course be a bad contact in a connector, take it out, spray with cleaner, and put it back in.
Swapping coils is the cheapest simplest quasi-scientific thing to try. It may show up a problem item, it may not, but costs just a few minutes work.
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I would suggest that the ECU (engine control unit) is probably the least likely thing to go wrong. Sounds like the garage are just employing the "shotgun" diagnostic system, throw something in there and see what it hits, then say it's probably that. Do they actually have any evidence to support that it's the ECU, I doubt it. ECU's are generally extremely reliable. It could of course be a bad contact in a connector, take it out, spray with cleaner, and put it back in.
Swapping coils is the cheapest simplest quasi-scientific thing to try. It may show up a problem item, it may not, but costs just a few minutes work.
I would agree. Is it an general garage or a Honda specialist? Experience has taught me that the extra cost of using a specialist (main dealer or, preferably, an independent) is well worth it as they will hone in on the problem quite quickly due their experience on that brand.
Had a BMW indie diagnose a faulty instrument cluster for me and stand his ground when the so-called repair shop argued the cluster was O.K. and the problem was the car's wiring. He sent it back and told them to try again, and was proved right and saved me considerable costs in the long run.
Regarding ECU problems, these are quite rare and my most recent problem (VW Golf) was due to simply minor corrosion on the connecting pins of the ECU. Using contact cleaner / WD40 and unplugging / plugging back in several times cured the problem of slow acceleration and backfiring, particularly when cold.
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Hiya
thanks for your advice. I'm not using a Honda specialist because of the Limp Mode.
The Honda dealer was too far away to risk driving to.
I've just returned from the local garage dealing with my Jazz and I'm not confident in them.
They don't welcome my polite suggestions and quote £1200.00 for the ECU which I told them I couldn't afford.
I wonder if I should pay them for their work so far and risk driving home 200 miles to Yorkshire or to a Honda specialist. They warned against driving so far on 3 cylinders....
Your views would be very welcome! pensioner joe :-\
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A friend had a problem with a Merc diesel losing boost. The indi they used for servicing diagnosed a "failed turbo", £1700 exchange. I suggested they go to the Merc dealership, failed hose, £150.
Note the "exchange" trap, the old "failed" part disappears for exchange so you get a new part and a big bill, they get a perfectly serviceable used part worth ££.
A neighbour had a similar thing with one of the breakdown brigade. I had fitted a new battery for her barely 6months earlier. It went flat (something left on), breakdown said a new battery required or they wouldn't come out again, the breakdown get £80 for a £50 battery plus the mechanic gets a perfectly good 6month old battery to flog on. Kerching.
Eurocarparts list a Delphi coil https://www.eurocarparts.com/ignition-coil (check for correct part) listed at £30 with discount. I'd suggest worth getting one as a trial even if it turns out not to be the fault, not a huge cost (better than £1200). Are you able to change it yourself?
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Hiya
Thanks for your advice. I've asked the garage to swap the coils around and see if the fault is the same.
They seem reluctant as your story indicates- the exchange trap...
Meanwhile I'll check your link...
Do you think it's safe to try and drive 200 miles home to my trusted mechanic?
Ta, joe
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I'd suggest not ideally, but you could "probably" get away with driving it. Your choice really.
The engine management "should" prevent serious damage by inhibiting fuel to a cylinder if there is a misfire detected (any unburnt fuel/air mixture getting through a cylinder will react in the catalyst and will very rapidly overheat/melt it, so it gets switched off to that cylinder), but it generally isn't really a good idea to run it with a persistent misfire even if it has gone into a safe mode.
That was the reason for on-board-diagnostics (OBD) being introduced, so the system could detect when there was a fault which could "potentially" cause serious emissions failure and/or damage, and do something to prevent it. It should be safe to drive if really necessary. Is it a good idea? In theory not really but in practice you can get away with it. 200mls is a bit of a long distance, but if you feel it necessary ...........
Where are you right now and where do you want to get to, if that's not a rude question?
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Have you tried resetting the codes with the OBD reader?
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Hiya
thanks again. I have the car back having paid £200 for the 'diagnosis', they are convinced it is a ECU fault but will only replace it with a new one at £1200 + Vat + coding etc-- way beyond repairs on my pension status!
I'm in N London and want to return to Ilkley in Yorkshire. It is a long way to go on 3 cylinders...
I'm looking into ECU online repairs at £250 but would need to remove and re-fit myself which I'm unsure of.
So, spending all my time on the internet ooking for a solution. Crown Honda only take messages and I can't get a call back,
thanks again, joe
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Have you tried resetting the codes with the OBD reader?
Thanks for the tip. If I clear the codes and they return as soon as I re-connect will that help?
I'll go and try, thanks, joe
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I'd suggest not ideally, but you could "probably" get away with driving it. Your choice really.
The engine management "should" prevent serious damage by inhibiting fuel to a cylinder if there is a misfire detected (a
Where are you right now and where do you want to get to, if that's not a rude question?
Thanks again- If I trust the diagnosis that it is an ECU fault I'm looking into repair/ replacement.
N London to Ilkley Yorks is a long drive and I'm nervous about it...
Ta, joe
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Only 40k miles but 10 years old. I wonder if the plugs have ever been changed. Could one be showing its age?
How far to Crown Honda? Is it worth limping there without an appointment?
PS: Here's discussion of a similar problem https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=13130.0 .
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Hi
The garage say they've tested all the things I asked- plugs, coils, etc but I don't know them so trust is an issue...
thanks, joe
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Clear the codes, run it again and if the MIL comes on see what the codes are. If it's the same then it identifies the cylinder and a misfire. By far the most likely things as said are either plugs (age and gaps) or the coil (or both?).
I don't trust most places giving that sort of diagnosis. Of course they might be correct, but odds are it's something much simpler.
Are you able to change plugs and/or coils yourself? The coil is simply unplug and plug in a new one. Not sure of your engine, but usually the connector is directly on the top of the coil body, and they are typically held in place by one bolt. Others will advise.
If you can do it, mark the one with the fault code (tape/felt pen etc) and swap it to another cylinder. Clear codes and try again. If the fault moves with the coil then bingo. If it doesn't then at least it's ruled out (probably).
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Thanks again for your help:
I have tried erasing the codes and starting again but the same codes return indicating misfire on cylinder 3.
The Amber engine light is flashing.
I've just had a return call from the nearest Honda garage who have offered a diagnostic test for £60.00 which I will do tomorrow.
The car will be slow on low revs but I have more trust in them- I'll post with details,
best wishes, joe
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Sounds a good plan to me, good luck.
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Thanks again for your help:
I have tried erasing the codes and starting again but the same codes return indicating misfire on cylinder 3.
The Amber engine light is flashing.
I've just had a return call from the nearest Honda garage who have offered a diagnostic test for £60.00 which I will do tomorrow.
The car will be slow on low revs but I have more trust in them- I'll post with details,
best wishes, joe
Sounds like all they will do is plug their computer in and all you will get is the same code as you have found. I don’t think they’ll be testing individual components for £60 at a dealers.
Hopefully they will do more. Try and push the “miles from home and skint” angle with them!!
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The dealer diagnostics will be able to tell more than the basic fault code from a simple OBD reader, there are usually sub-codes which identify what type of fault it is in addition to the component area, e.g. short circuit or open circuit etc.
I'd be very surprised if they can't identify the actual fault, but nothing is 100%. I suspect this will be a fairly basic/common fault.
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A 2012 Jazz will have iridium plugs: replace at 75k miles.
I replaced my 2012's last year at 52k miles- unworn
SO plugs are unlikely.Coil pack seems the next choice - and cheap.And easy to change.
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Hi All
Honda know about my previous diagnosis and I've asked the to confirm whether it actually is a faulty ECU.
The 6 mile drive there was ok after the engine had warmed up. Hills were the only problem...
I'll report back when I hear from Honda,
Thanks for all you help, joe
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Hi All
I jst got a call back from Crown Honda....
They want to start by replacing an injector £552.00 but think it may also need an ECU £1369.00
I explained that it was there for the ECU to be tested which it nows seems they can't do!
So, back to square one... it's 5.15 pm and they close at 6pm...
thanks for any further suggestions... joe
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Are you a member of the AA or RAC with Recovery? Head off towards Yorkshire, call them out, and have them recover you home. Then get your mechanic to get a used injector and see if that works. If not get him to get a used ECU. Parts from a breaker's yard should be much cheaper. The chances it was the ECU that caused the donor Jazz to crash is highly unlikely!
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but think it may also need an ECU £1369.00
Sorry to hear of the problems btw.
If the ECU is suspected, rather than buy a replacement, I would try ECU testing.
https://www.ecutesting.com/common-faults/honda/honda-jazz-ecu-fault-causing-misfire/ (https://www.ecutesting.com/common-faults/honda/honda-jazz-ecu-fault-causing-misfire/)
They quote £250+vat to rebuild.
I have used them in the past to get an ABS module rebuilt on the Skoda VRS we owned. They were speedy, reliable and a fraction of the cost of our local Skoda dealer.
I've also heard of BBA reman http://www.bba-reman.com/gb/index.aspx - but not used them personaly.
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Hi All
I jst got a call back from Crown Honda....
They want to start by replacing an injector £552.00 but think it may also need an ECU £1369.00
I explained that it was there for the ECU to be tested which it nows seems they can't do!
So, back to square one... it's 5.15 pm and they close at 6pm...
thanks for any further suggestions... joe
... best laid plans .............
they sound like plonkers to me. Very disappointing.
If it has detected a misfire it will probably have cut the fuelling to that cylinder, so it might look like the injector isn't working ......... if they are not clued up.
You can do the same swap with injectors if they really suspect it, clear code and re-start to see if the fault stays with the cylinder or the injector. Probably more the sort of thing your trusted mechanic will do than that main dealer. Most basic check is the injector coil resistance. Easy enough to check it opens and closes using a jump wire ......
Jocko's suggestion is looking more attractive.
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Thanks for everones help so far...
I'm booking the ECU for a test/ repair but am unsure how to remove it. (ecutesting.com)
I believe it's next to the battery but some say it's behind the kick plate of the passenger seat.
Any tips on removing it would be very welcome for this nervous non-mechanic...
thanks again, joe
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Hiya
I finally managed to remove the ECU- which wasn't easy without guidance.
I've now sent it off to ecutesting and will report in a few days with their result,
ongoing thanks, joe
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Hi All
My update is that the ecu was tested, found faulty and re-built.
At £250 + Vat and postage this is far less than a replacement ecu which then needs to be coded to the car.
It was a long process finding a solution so thanks to all who posted suggestions.
I managed to re-fit the ecu and drive back to Yorkshire yesterday where I will have it looked over by a local, trusted mechanic,
joe
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I've had several customer cars fixed at ECU all at reasonable cost. Glad your able to use the Jazz once again.
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Interesting to see that that is a common problem on the Mk2 Jazz, according to ecutesting.com.
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Really pleased to hear the car is back on the road for a fraction of the main dealers price. :D
Good to hear another positive report about ECU testing. Thanks for posting back!
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......My update is that the ecu was tested, found faulty and re-built......
Useful to know that ECU faults can happen with this model. It is quite unusual these days but clearly anything is possible. Glad you got it sorted at reasonable cost.
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Hi All
My update is that the ecu was tested, found faulty and re-built.
At £250 + Vat and postage this is far less than a replacement ecu which then needs to be coded to the car.
It was a long process finding a solution so thanks to all who posted suggestions.
I managed to re-fit the ecu and drive back to Yorkshire yesterday where I will have it looked over by a local, trusted mechanic,
joe
Having read your saga etc congratulations on a successful solution so,pleased.
it was a nasty situation to be in and being so far from home .
Well done.
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Hi All
Having driven back to Yorkshire I have now had it serviced and checked over by my trusted local garage.
The mechanic said the engine was now running 'sweet as a nut'.
So, a story with a happy ending despite a very nervous 2 weeks in London,
thanks again all, joe
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Sorry I didn't pick up your message, not been about for a while.
Glad to hear it's all fixed, I can see you got the same answer here that I've just sent you! 8)
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To Sparky Paul
Welcome back.
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To Sparky Paul
Welcome back.
+1
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To Sparky Paul
Welcome back.
+1
+2 8)
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Hiya
Yesterday my car went back into limp mode after the ECU was re-built.
This time a fault code for a different cylinder- #1 rather than #3.
I though this was the solution after a re-build by www.ecutesting.com but I've tried deleting the codes which return after the engine is switched on.
Any ideas? thanks, joe
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Speak to ECU testing. See what they have to say.
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Thanks Joko , I'll try to speak to them tomorrow when they open.
They gave me very little information by phone or email last week so my expectations are low this time around,
joe
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I've had a quick flick through the thread, I can see that you had the ECU repaired, but it's not clear what happened with the injectors.
Was the injector on the misfiring cylinder replaced? Do you know if any were swapped around for the purposes of fault finding?
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Hiya
I was told the the diagnostic involved swapping them around which pointed to the ecu,
I have called www.ecutesting but I get a call handler (as I suspected) who could give me no information.
I have put in a tech request,
thanks, joe
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The injector on the original misfiring cylinder should have been replaced.
This is a known issue with the mk2 Jazz ECU, I think there was another thread about this last year. A shorted injector solenoid can be the cause of damage to the ECU output, and there is some suspicion that a slowly failing injector, specifically deterioration of the solenoid insulation, can also lead to the same outcome.
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Hiya
Thanks for this suggestion. The fault code after the ecu repair related to a different cylinder/ Injector.
This time not #3 but #1. In this case do think both injectors are at fault?
I'm losing confidence in the repairs and the car as it's now been 1 month of problems so your advice is appreciated,
thanks, joe
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I think SP is suggesting that the injectors may not have been swopped back again.
I found this on the internet which may or may not be of any use.
https://www.700r4transmissionhq.com/bad-fuel-injector-symptoms-honda-jazz/
https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=10333.0
Edit added second link
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Hiya
Thanks for pointing me at the 2 articles.
I looked at the articles but am still no clearer about the source of the problem as I can't test the injectors myself.
I've now been to 3 garages but nobody is sure about a solution.
"IIRC failure of injector outputs is a known fault on the ECU of the mark 2. Really, the suspect injector needs to be tested, rather than the usual "change this and see if it fixes it" approach."
I'll have to wait and see what they say this time at www.ecutesting.com but have lost trust in my car sadly,
Thanks, joe
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First thing that needs to be done is to see what the problem is with cylinder #1. If the same fault is suspect, then it needs to be checked with either an oscilloscope on the ECU output, or a Noid light, not by random swapping.
If ECU #1 output is now faulty, then the ECU may well have to go back to ECUtesting again. Not sure if they will fix under warranty, perhaps best not to go into too much detail... I'm a bit surprised they didn't point out that the offending injector should be replaced.
If the ECU output looks good, then the injector needs to be checked and/or replaced. A simple resistance check against a new/good injector will probably show up a faulty one.
Note that the problem with these injectors is electrical, not mechanical.
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Hi Paul
Thanks, I really appreciate this clear explanation though I don't know whether this was what the original diagnostic garage did.
They were sure the ECU was at fault and said they'd tested to see if cylinder 3 was getting the correct signal to open and shut- which it wasn't. Now the fault code is for cylinder 1 of course...
When ecutesting come back to me I hope to have a clearer idea of how to proceed as it's now been a 6 week process,
joe
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Hi Shantijoe,
How are things going with the repair? I'm having the same issue and have used the same company for repair however havent replaced the injectors yet
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Hiya
the current situation is that the car was towed into an electronics specialist 2 weeks ago but it took a week before they even looked at the car...
Injector 1 was showing a lower voltage and they have ordered a new one from Honda (they say though reports on this forum suggest they are unavailable..?).
Delivery delays and bank holiday delays mean I should hear back next week.
So far 8 weeks of issues with this but I'll report back with an update, joe