Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.

[Neil Ives]

I was talking to our two local granddaughters, (9 & 6) about stored energy. They were playing with a clockwork car. We were trying to think of other examples of stored energy. A party balloon, torch battery, a clock pendulum, a child's swing, etc.
It wasn't until later that I remembered that a motor vehicle is able to use energy that's been stored for hundreds of millions of years in fossil fuel.

[embee]

..........
https://www.nationalgeographic.co.uk/environment-and-conservation/2021/11/europe-burns-a-controversial-renewable-energy-source-trees-from-the-us


Edit added links the last one is the best

Brilliant summary of the situation. I'm sure most of what I have gleaned has come from articles just like that, though I haven't seen that specific one before. Counting wood fuel as zero carbon is a con, it should be made more widely known, but the most important thing is to stop burning it as we are, it's just a bad choice right now.

[culzean]

I was talking to our two local granddaughters, (9 & 6) about stored energy. They were playing with a clockwork car. We were trying to think of other examples of stored energy. A party balloon, torch battery, a clock pendulum, a child's swing, etc.
It wasn't until later that I remembered that a motor vehicle is able to use energy that's been stored for hundreds of millions of years in fossil fuel.

With most sources of stored energy you get less back than you put in...   and that includes hydrogen...

[culzean]

..........
https://www.nationalgeographic.co.uk/environment-and-conservation/2021/11/europe-burns-a-controversial-renewable-energy-source-trees-from-the-us


Edit added links the last one is the best

Brilliant summary of the situation. I'm sure most of what I have gleaned has come from articles just like that, though I haven't seen that specific one before. Counting wood fuel as zero carbon is a con, it should be made more widely known, but the most important thing is to stop burning it as we are, it's just a bad choice right now.

Wood that falls to forest floor is an important home for fungi and insects at the bottom of food chain,  and if it is all scooped up for burning then biodiversity will suffer.  It is no good concentrating totally on climate change and ignoring or actually making biodiversity a lot worse. The whole zero carbon scheme is full of stupid ideas, quick fixes, wasted money ( which the consumer pays for ) - chopping down rainforest to grow palm oil and sugar cane / corn to make so called bio-fuel is just plain stupid,  especially as the resulting bio-fuel has less energy content and results in worse MPG.

https://www.chathamhouse.org/2017/03/wood-not-carbon-neutral-energy-source

[JimSh]

..........
https://www.nationalgeographic.co.uk/environment-and-conservation/2021/11/europe-burns-a-controversial-renewable-energy-source-trees-from-the-us


Edit added links the last one is the best

Brilliant summary of the situation. I'm sure most of what I have gleaned has come from articles just like that, though I haven't seen that specific one before. Counting wood fuel as zero carbon is a con, it should be made more widely known, but the most important thing is to stop burning it as we are, it's just a bad choice right now.

I think it's an update on one I've read before.

[ColinB]

I was talking to our two local granddaughters, (9 & 6) about stored energy. They were playing with a clockwork car. We were trying to think of other examples of stored energy. A party balloon, torch battery, a clock pendulum, a child's swing, etc.
It wasn't until later that I remembered that a motor vehicle is able to use energy that's been stored for hundreds of millions of years in fossil fuel.

Here's a full scale example ...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_139
... a practical application of flywheel energy storage in a rail vehicle. Apparently very successful too, in the right place.

[culzean]

I was talking to our two local granddaughters, (9 & 6) about stored energy. They were playing with a clockwork car. We were trying to think of other examples of stored energy. A party balloon, torch battery, a clock pendulum, a child's swing, etc.
It wasn't until later that I remembered that a motor vehicle is able to use energy that's been stored for hundreds of millions of years in fossil fuel.

Here's a full scale example ...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_139
... a practical application of flywheel energy storage in a rail vehicle. Apparently very successful too, in the right place.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/02/whatever-happened-to-williams-f1s-flywheel-hybrid-idea/

GKN took over the idea of flywheel storage systems, and IIRC no longer make them, as they did not live up to their promise. Unlike a battery they lose energy quickly ( around 50% in 2 hours ) and the spinning flywheel acts as a gyroscope, affecting the vehicles handling.

[culzean]

Love the comment I saw today

 ' heat pumps illustrate the first law of financial thermodynamics, money flows from poor people to rich people'.... 

A good example is rich people hoovering up the subsidies on EV, and now heatpumps - and those subsidies come out of the taxes of the less well off.   Note also the owners of wind and solar farms get their lucrative  subsidies whether they generate or not, so much better than buying woodland or other tax dodges, and guess who pays for the subsidies - us consumers,  so money comes out of your pocket and you get nothing for it.

[JimSh]

It's true the rich are robbing the poor but once again your source is diverting blame from the true culprits

https://www.eesi.org/papers/view/fact-sheet-fossil-fuel-subsidies-a-closer-look-at-tax-breaks-and-societal-costs#:~:text=Conservative%20estimates%20put%20U.S.%20direct%20subsidies%20to%20the,are%20estimated%20to%20total%2055%20billion%20euros%20annually.

https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-change/news/fossil-fuel-subsidies-cambo-oil-b1964222.html

[JimSh]

One thing we should be honest about is the folly of burning wood to make electricity. That really is a political con-trick. It's the way it is treated as a "renewable" so zero carbon in the country where it is burned. The carbon is safely locked up in the fuel.

Drax receiving subsidies from UK Government.

“The government’s plan to tackle climate change through planting trees is in flames as it gives over £800m a year to Drax to be the biggest source of greenhouse gas emissions from burning imported wood, compared to £650 million over five years on tree planting and woodlands.”

https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-change/news/boris-johnson-drax-power-station-trees-b1964331.html

[madasafish]

4pm Sunday pm and snowing here.. 1C

Renewable energy is 27% of demand according to Gridwatch..(it's turning dark)..

[culzean]

4pm Sunday pm and snowing here.. 1C

Renewable energy is 27% of demand according to Gridwatch..(it's turning dark)..

You only need to look at the shapes of the historical graphs for renewables to see the basic problem,  it is  either feast or famine....

[JimSh]

4pm Sunday pm and snowing here.. 1C

Renewable energy is 27% of demand according to Gridwatch..(it's turning dark)..

You only need to look at the shapes of the historical graphs for renewables to see the basic problem,  it is  either feast or famine....

That's why we need storage.

[madasafish]

Renewables at 21% demand as I write.
Demand is 42GW
Renewables. 9GW

Any thought of storage for the difference is £1000billions  and decades away as the technology does not exist for that level of storage - 300GWhours for say 10 hours of night is unthinkable at present. And of course that would be enough as it assumes we could refill storage in the day - which we cannot with current weather so in reality we might need 4-5 days cover or 1,500GWH.

At present technology levels it is not doable - and totally uneconomic - better order some more nuclear reactors : when they are being decomissioned - after 60 years - that level of storage might be possible.

[culzean]

4pm Sunday pm and snowing here.. 1C

Renewable energy is 27% of demand according to Gridwatch..(it's turning dark)..

You only need to look at the shapes of the historical graphs for renewables to see the basic problem,  it is  either feast or famine....

That's why we need storage.

Grid scale storage is eye-wateringly expensive and totally impractical - nuclear does not need grid storage - and once up and running the fuel costs are very low....  Future civilisations may find relics of wind turbines and think about them like we think of the old windmills ... Structures from a primitive society

Wind now back down to about 12% and solar nothing, and will be very low today due to uniformly grey sky ...   Coal is heading for 5% and Gas turbines are burning gas as if there is no tomorrow.. What a bl**dy mess our grid is these days....