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Honda Jazz Forums => Honda Jazz Mk4 2020 - => Topic started by: John Ratsey on July 16, 2020, 08:55:59 PM

Title: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: John Ratsey on July 16, 2020, 08:55:59 PM
Further to my test drive and placing an order as described here https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=12141.0 I've finally got hold of the keys to my two-tone red Crosstar.

The road on the way home from the dealer felt smoother than when I went in my HR-V. While many potential owners of the Crosstar will be attracted by the extra ride height compared to the normal Mk 4 Jazz, I think the extra travel on the suspension is also worth having (although I haven't ridden in a normal Mk 4 to do a direct comparison).

This afternoon the Crosstar has been on a 40 mile trip on rural roads (B roads or lower category). The fibometer (ie the trip meter) claimed 76 mpg. The maximum speed on that trip was about 55mph with most of it much slower as a good proportion of the journey involved ups, downs and bends which combined to provide a good test of the hybrid system. I put my OBDII reader into the OBDII socket and set it up to send data to the Torque app running on my phone (parked in the cup-holder near the mirror) so I could see the engine rpm. The engine spent the majority of its operating time running at around 2000 rpm but occasionally went as low as 1600 rpm while it got up to about 3500 rpm climbing a 1 in 6 (15%) hill. 3000 rpm seems to be the threshold above which the engine noise becomes audible - much the same as the previous generation of Jazz. This initial observation suggests that Honda decided that around 2000 rpm was the sweet spot for engine efficiency and below 1500 rpm is best avoided.

When I left the dealer the battery was at about 80% (I'm wondering how they got the charge that high) and the vehicle ran on battery for the first half mile until the charge was down to 20% (2 bars on the gauge). Thereafter the battery charge ranged between 20% and 40% under normal driving conditions - Honda seems to have configured the system to leave plenty of capacity to store energy recovered from going down hills. The only time I saw the charge at 100% was after going down a substantial hill and that charge was used to power the next half mile on level ground. I didn't notice the direct engine drive being used at any point on that trip.

I did notice some glare in the windscreen from sun on the top of the dashboard but this was almost uniform and easy to see through. I deliberately didn't wear my polaroids so I could check this aspect although I had already checked this on my test drive but wanted to be sure that I wasn't going to encounter problems if I forgot to put on the polaroids before starting a journey (they are clip-ons so can't be put on without stopping).

The one annoyance with the vehicle so far is the over-zealous Road Departure Mitigation System which does a lot of bonging each time the system thinks it necessary to alert the driver. There are two pages in the paper version of the handbook listing the conditions and limitations of the system (see pages 474 - 477 in the online PDF version of the manual) and driving on smaller roads encounters a lot of those limitations. The system is automatically enabled each time the vehicle is started but there is a procedure involving fiddling with controls on the steering wheel to temporarily disable it. I need to practice doing that. In the mean time I've turned the sound level of the alarms to the minimum setting. Apart from this annoyance the vehicle provides a very pleasant driving experience. Nicer than my HR-V and much nicer than the Mk 3 Jazz and I think any Mk 3 Jazz owner will be surprised by the transformation.

The rear seat room is very generous (as on the Mk 3 Jazz) while the boot isn't so generous (but the cubby hole under the floor is useful for the bits and pieces which otherwise tend to roll around). With rear seats folded the distance from boot sill to back of front seats is about 1.5m.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: John Ratsey on July 17, 2020, 10:11:35 PM
A further update after today's excursion which involved about 150 miles of mainly A road driving in Wiltshire and Somerset. The reported mpg for the 3 legs of the journey was in a similar range to yesterday and a bit over 70 mpg. However, warm weather with little wind provides the optimum conditions for good fuel economy.

At one point, I noticed the car running in engine drive at 60 mph for about 1/2 mile. However, on the other occasions that I reached that speed it was using the generator + motor with some charge going to the battery so perhaps battery charge level is a factor in deciding when to engage engine drive. Overall, the system is putting the battery thorough a lot more charging and discharging than I had expected but mainly in the 20% (I've not seen it lower) to 60% range. I get the impression that Honda have decided that the best overall economy is achieved by charging the battery when the engine is running and once the battery is up to about 60% then the engine takes a break and the battery does the work for a while. This could be related to yesterday's observation that 2000 rpm seems to be the engine's preferred speed so any spare power goes to the battery.

At one point on the journey I had been following a tractor running at 35mph and towing a large piece of equipment. When I spotted a gap in the oncoming traffic I floored the accelerator and the Crosstar took off like a scalded cat. The engine revved up into the noisy range (ie over 3000 rpm) to help feed the 80kW motor and I'm sure the battery made a comtribution as well but the result was impressive and instant acceleration.

One thing which currently has me baffled at the moment is that coool air was coming thorugh the air vents without either turning on the air conditioning or the automatic climate control. Moreover, this cool air didn't stop either when running in EV mode or when stopped at traffic lights. So far, the auto-headlights have behaved themselves and didn't come on when driving under trees. The light sensor is now forward looking at the top of the screen rather than the upward looking sensor on the Mk 3 Jazz / HR-V.

I tried the Garmin navigation to see if it had improved since I last had a Garmin satnav. It still has a characteristic which used to annoy me - the preference to use a road name, however obscure, if it can find one rather than the road number. It's the latter which are used on the road signs and I like to relate the instructions to what the signs show. I also discovered that the Garmin system can't recognise a post code if it is entered without a space in the middle. I also used my Tomtom satnav for a while so I could check the speedometer accuracy. It's about 1mph high at 30mph and 2mph high at 60 mph. I find the car's big digital speedometer display to be very helpful.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: culzean on July 18, 2020, 09:19:19 AM
I find the car's big digital speedometer display to be very helpful.

That is one of the great things that the Civic has had since 2006,  the large digital speedo high up in your eyeline, also the Civic controls better laid out, larger and easier to use than the small oddly positioned ones on the Jazz.  The Civic dash in the 2006 --> model is a master-class in ergonomic design, don't know why other models missed out.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: csp on July 18, 2020, 10:51:15 AM
I have also noticed that the battery charge indicator tends to sit between 20% and 60% most of the time, I haven't yet seen it above about 70% yet. The engine in my Jazz SR normally seems to cut in at about 60 mph but not always, around town the car seamlessly moves from EV to charging mode or engine charging.

Often when I switch on the power in the garage the engine will start and run for a few minutes but the car will normally revert to EV when I get onto the road.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: Mellorshark on July 18, 2020, 11:14:03 AM
My EX has shown battery at 100%. It is quite hilly where I live, with a long descent near home.  I'm still experimenting with drive D or B.  Also I used to fuel the mk3 with V-Power because it climbed hills better. Given John's info on engine speed it might work well in the mk3.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: Mellorshark on July 18, 2020, 11:15:52 AM
Sorry - work well in the MK4.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: ColinB on July 18, 2020, 12:41:13 PM
I'm still experimenting with drive D or B.

Not sure I understand how this B setting should be used. Am I right in understanding that B gives you regenerative braking, and D doesn’t? Do you drive normally in D and switch to B on a downhill (like downshifting with a manual box), or leave it in B all the time? So what happens if you use B and a long descent gets the battery up to 100%? Presumably the car stops trying to charge the battery, are you aware that you’ve lost some of the braking effect, does the lever move itself from B to D?
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: ColinS on July 18, 2020, 02:54:13 PM
Some interesting point here https://www.driveaccord.net/threads/regenerative-braking-and-shift-position-b.474546/ (https://www.driveaccord.net/threads/regenerative-braking-and-shift-position-b.474546/) although not Jazz specific.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: Jocko on July 18, 2020, 04:25:32 PM
Most EVs have different levels of regenerative braking, and you can select how much you wish to use. The Honda-e has a system like that.
At maximum Regen, you get the One Pedal control that a lot of the manufacturers advertise. With minimum Regen selected the EV drives like a standard car in high gear, with little engine braking on the overrun. Increasing the stages is like using progressively lower gears. Max regen gives the greatest range, and minimum Regen can make for a smoother drive if the range is not an issue.
I assume that the Jazz D and B just determine the level of regen. Personally, I would be switching between the two as circumstances demanded.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: John Ratsey on July 18, 2020, 10:04:26 PM
Often when I switch on the power in the garage the engine will start and run for a few minutes but the car will normally revert to EV when I get onto the road.
Yesterday morning my Crosstar moved about 20 metres on battery and then decided to run the engine for the next half mile. Perhaps the system is set up to allow a driveway shuffle on battery (but you aren't seeing that) but once it realises that the vehicle is going somewhere the priority is to get the engine warmed up. Or maybe it just wanted to put a bit more charge into the battery - the last 1/3rd mile to my house is slightly downhill and 30 mph so the vehicle tends to use EV mode.

Most EVs have different levels of regenerative braking, and you can select how much you wish to use. The Honda-e has a system like that.
At maximum Regen, you get the One Pedal control that a lot of the manufacturers advertise. With minimum Regen selected the EV drives like a standard car in high gear, with little engine braking on the overrun. Increasing the stages is like using progressively lower gears. Max regen gives the greatest range, and minimum Regen can make for a smoother drive if the range is not an issue.
I assume that the Jazz D and B just determine the level of regen. Personally, I would be switching between the two as circumstances demanded.
I think you've pretty well summarised it. One could stay in B all the time and be half way to a one pedal control. As it is, I shift to B when I know that that I need significant deceleration - usually speed limits at the bottom of hills. However, a light touch on the brake pedal is often advisable to alert drivers behind that the vehicle is slowing down.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: jazzaro on July 19, 2020, 09:53:08 AM
I assume that the Jazz D and B just determine the level of regen. Personally, I would be switching between the two as circumstances demanded.
D and B are only two settings for the regenerative braking when you leave the gas WITHOUT pressing the brake pedal, in B regeneration is bigger. In the CR-V you have more levels that can be selected by paddles, Jazz have only two levels. Both in D than B, you can increase the regeneration by pressing the brake pedal, until the system will ask  the hydraulic circuit to add brake power acting on the 4 calipers.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: jazzaro on July 19, 2020, 10:38:03 AM
Nice review.
Further to my test drive and placing an order as described here https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=12141.0 I've finally got hold of the keys to my two-tone red Crosstar.

The road on the way home from the dealer felt smoother than when I went in my HR-V. While many potential owners of the Crosstar will be attracted by the extra ride height compared to the normal Mk 4 Jazz, I think the extra travel on the suspension is also worth having (although I haven't ridden in a normal Mk 4 to do a direct comparison).
I must understand if there is a real extra travel or if shocks and springs are only softer...

Quote
I put my OBDII reader into the OBDII socket and set it up to send data to the Torque app running on my phone (parked in the cup-holder near the mirror) so I could see the engine rpm. The engine spent the majority of its operating time running at around 2000 rpm but occasionally went as low as 1600 rpm while it got up to about 3500 rpm climbing a 1 in 6 (15%) hill. 3000 rpm seems to be the threshold above which the engine noise becomes audible - much the same as the previous generation of Jazz. This initial observation suggests that Honda decided that around 2000 rpm was the sweet spot for engine efficiency and below 1500 rpm is best avoided.
Interesting.
It would be nice to know the rpm at stable 62mph with the clutch engaged, just to compare the gear ratio with the 6th of the old jazz.

Quote
When I left the dealer the battery was at about 80% (I'm wondering how they got the charge that high) and the vehicle ran on battery for the first half mile until the charge was down to 20% (2 bars on the gauge). Thereafter the battery charge ranged between 20% and 40% under normal driving conditions - Honda seems to have configured the system to leave plenty of capacity to store energy recovered from going down hills. The only time I saw the charge at 100% was after going down a substantial hill and that charge was used to power the next half mile on level ground. I didn't notice the direct engine drive being used at any point on that trip.

Maybe the battery was at 80% because it was factory pre-charged to keep it in good conditions in long storage, or it has been recharged by the dealer (using the Honda EOBD software) before the delivery. Many technical bullettins write to recharge the battery before delivery on standard cars, the same could be for hybrid cars.
Ah, about the State Of Charge.. it would be interesting to know (just for curioisity) if the 100% means a fully charged battery or if the 100% on the dash is an about 80% for the battery, as for Toyota hybrids, where the battery never gets fully charged to increase its lifetime.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: Jocko on July 19, 2020, 10:43:51 AM
Ah, about the State Of Charge.. it would be interesting to know (just for curioisity) if the 100% means a fully charged battery or if the 100% on the dash is an about 80% for the battery, as for Toyota hybrids, where the battery never gets fully charged to increase its lifetime.
Perhaps because the battery seems to rise to a max of 80% and fall to a min of 20% the software is designed to permit that range and 100% and 0% is true battery state.
We know that EVs that charge to 100% are actually only charged to 80% and the display is range corrected.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: culzean on July 19, 2020, 10:46:23 AM
Seems that above 80% and below 20 or 30% are 'no-go' areas on Li-Ion batteries as both over and undercharge will damage battery ( as does fast charging ),  as the battery gets older / used more / fast charged too often and loses capacity then the 30 and 80% limits get relaxed to maintain range - so when battery is described as 30KW/h etc. is that the full 100% capacity or the 30 to 80% capacity ?
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: madasafish on July 19, 2020, 01:27:10 PM
Seems that above 80% and below 20 or 30% are 'no-go' areas on Li-Ion batteries as both over and undercharge will damage battery ( as does fast charging ),  as the battery gets older / used more / fast charged too often and loses capacity then the 30 and 80% limits get relaxed to maintain range - so when battery is described as 30KW/h etc. is that the full 100% capacity or the 30 to 80% capacity ?

Almost certainly capacity is gross before and adjustments...
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: jazzaro on July 19, 2020, 05:09:22 PM
Seems that above 80% and below 20 or 30% are 'no-go' areas on Li-Ion batteries as both over and undercharge will damage battery ( as does fast charging ),  as the battery gets older / used more / fast charged too often and loses capacity then the 30 and 80% limits get relaxed to maintain range - so when battery is described as 30KW/h etc. is that the full 100% capacity or the 30 to 80% capacity ?
Surely the capacity is intended as 100%.
To be honest my question has very low importance for hybrids as the Jazz, as the charge is handled by the system and not by the user.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: Mellorshark on July 19, 2020, 05:42:21 PM
I must understand if there is a real extra travel or if shocks and springs are only softer...

According to the Honda website ground clearance with driver is 136 (EX) and 152 (Crosstar). Clearance at full load is 107 and 144.2 respectively.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: Jocko on July 19, 2020, 11:36:59 PM
According to the Honda website ground clearance with driver is 136 (EX) and 152 (Crosstar). Clearance at full load is 107 and 144.2 respectively.
I would say, going by these numbers, the Crosstar has a stiffer suspension. Someone correct me if my thinking is wrong.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: jazzaro on July 20, 2020, 10:45:36 AM
According to the Honda website ground clearance with driver is 136 (EX) and 152 (Crosstar). Clearance at full load is 107 and 144.2 respectively.
Yes, millimeters, so the difference is 16mm. Considering that tire size is different (185/60 R16 fro Crosstar, 185/60 R15 for Elegance and Confort), 12 of this 16mm are given by the bigger diameter of the Crosstar wheel (9 of 16 if Crosstar is compared with Executive). Probably shocks and springs are different from the GK3, but I'm not sure they are different between standard and crosstar.
Autoevolucion talks about 127mm for the old GK3 and GK5.
Ah, after our Gkx.. which is the framecode of the new Jazz?  JHM.......?
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: jazzaro on July 22, 2020, 12:26:07 PM
Another question: how  long does the coolant take to reach 110F° after startup and normal driving?
I say 110F because this is the temperature when the blue light goes off in the dash, in Jazz mk3 and  petrol Hrv.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: John Ratsey on July 22, 2020, 10:13:25 PM
It would be nice to know the rpm at stable 62mph with the clutch engaged, just to compare the gear ratio with the 6th of the old jazz.
I'll try to check this on Friday when I've got a motorway trip planned. I suspect the answer will be around 2000 rpm as that appears to be when the engine is most efficient but will depend on whether the Atkinson cycle engine can provide enough power at that rpm to keep the vehicle moving.

Almost certainly capacity is gross before and adjustments...
I would hope that the battery rating leaves room for long-term deterioration and the very frequent partial charge / discharge cycling will eventually cause wear. The battery pack is a big lump for 1kWh (but it will need a very effective cooling system). Honda could have problems if the mpg drops after a few years due to the battery losing capacity.

Ah, after our Gkx.. which is the framecode of the new Jazz?  JHM.......?
My Crosstar is JHM GR6 (do you want more letters / numbers?)

Another question: how  long does the coolant take to reach 110F° after startup and normal driving?
I say 110F because this is the temperature when the blue light goes off in the dash, in Jazz mk3 and  petrol Hrv.
I'll try to remember to check this aspect although the time needed for engine warm-up is very weather-dependent.

Also, my dealer says the vehicle has an electric motor to power the air-conditioning when the engine is not running. However, I didn't get clarification whether it's directly driven by the engine when it is running. I looked under the bonnet (very congested) and the compressor is in the usual place (left end when looking under the bonnet). Something else I noticed is the lack of an undertray. My dealer says that Honda has left these off the new models.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: jazzaro on July 22, 2020, 11:51:15 PM
It would be nice to know the rpm at stable 62mph with the clutch engaged, just to compare the gear ratio with the 6th of the old jazz.
I'll try to check this on Friday when I've got a motorway trip planned. I suspect the answer will be around 2000 rpm as that appears to be when the engine is most efficient but will depend on whether the Atkinson cycle engine can provide enough power at that rpm to keep the vehicle moving.
The 1.3 16v Gk3 runs at 2900 rpm at 62mph.
Quote
My Crosstar is JHM GR6 (do you want more letters / numbers?)
Thanks. So after the GD, the GE, the GK we have the GR...

Quote
I'll try to remember to check this aspect although the time needed for engine warm-up is very weather-dependent.

Also, my dealer says the vehicle has an electric motor to power the air-conditioning when the engine is not running. However, I didn't get clarification whether it's directly driven by the engine when it is running. I looked under the bonnet (very congested) and the compressor is in the usual place (left end when looking under the bonnet). Something else I noticed is the lack of an undertray. My dealer says that Honda has left these off the new models.
The warmup time depends by the starting temperature and by the power asked from the petrol engine.
In full hybrid vehicles as Toy HSD, Honda CRV and Jazz the compressor is not directly driven by the petrol engine, there is a big electric motor (about 3-4 hp) feeded by the high voltage circuit. You will find it following the orange cable.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: John Ratsey on July 24, 2020, 10:14:55 PM
Some findings from today's trip which was mainly motorway.

1. The direct drive gearing on the Crosstar is 2360 rpm (give or take a few rpm) at 62 mph (GPS speed - about 63.5 on the speedometer). The normal Jazz may be slightly different due to the different wheels / tyres.
2. By watching the road speed and the engine speed I've concluded that direct drive is used from around 42 mph (=1600 rpm) upwards provided that the power demand is within the engine's capability at the rpm corresponding to the road speed. This means gentle acceleration or modest hills although climbing the hill to junction 18 on the eastbound M4 in the low 60's was done at around 2800 rpm (ie not direct drive).
3. If the battery is at less than 60% charge then some power is used to top up the battery when running in direct drive. Only if the battery is at 60% or more charge does the animated power flow graphic clearly show it's in direct drive as there's no power flow to/from the battery.
4. Easing off slightly on the accelerator with the battery at 60% charge usually results in the vehicle going into EV mode until either the battery is down to 30% or there's significant pushing on the accelerator pedal.
5. The engine noise at 70 mph (about 2660 rpm in direct drive) is minimal although a firm push on the accelerator will get the engine into the noisy range (but still not as noisy as my HR-V which suggests better soundproofing).
6. I was unable to get any useful info on the engine warm-up time. The Torque app was unable to read the coolant temperature and I don't think the blue cold engine warning light came on at the journey start as it was a warm day.
7. As I expected based on the WLTP results, the mpg dropped noticeably once the speed was over about 60 mpg. I reckon about 65 mpg in the low 60's although that was into a 10 mph headwind.
8. The auto headlights didn't come on when I was stopped in traffic while under the motorway so Honda seem to have fixed that problem (I wait to see whether they come on at a sensible level of darkness).

The bad news is that trip confirmed what I felt on the previous 2 hour journey: The seats are worse than my HR-V. I commented on this to my front seat passenger who had reached the same conclusion. I'm going to be looking for a thin firm cushion to see if that fixes the comfort issue.

On a different subject, I put one of these LED bulbs https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/501-Led-Cob-White-T10-Xenon-Bulbs-W5w-Side-Light-Canbus-Error-Free-Wedge-194-168/382894921689 in the boot and it's a lot brighter than the original bulb. Given that the price is for 10, it makes Honda's £50 in the vehicle configurator accessories section (under Audio and Electronics) look a bit greedy. I've also put LED bulbs in the reversing lights but won't pass comment on their effectiveness until I need to reverse in darkness. I think the only remaining non-LED bulbs are the rear turn indicators. I'm not planning to change those due to (i) it's not obvious how to get to them and (ii) relatively expensive special bulbs are needed to avoid the flash rate going beserk.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: Jocko on July 25, 2020, 09:04:55 AM
I was unable to get any useful info on the engine warm-up time. The Torque app was unable to read the coolant temperature and I don't think the blue cold engine warning light came on at the journey start as it was a warm day.
I take it the configuration for the Blue light is different on the new Hybrid. Probably so that you are not driving around on EV or EV+ with the blue light on, waiting on the engine warming up. With the earlier Jazz, the light goes out at 45°C so unless the radiator was above that temperature an early Jazz would show the light. With the Crosstar that could take a long time to achieve and the light would become annoying to some drivers.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: robark on July 25, 2020, 11:58:21 AM
“The bad news is that trip confirmed what I felt on the previous 2 hour journey: The seats are worse than my HR-V. I commented on this to my front seat passenger who had reached the same conclusion. I'm going to be looking for a thin firm cushion to see if that fixes the comfort issue”.


I am seriously considering getting the new EX Jazz and am interested in seat comfort. What concerned you about the seats? I seem to remember reading somewhere that Honda had increased the cushion thickness on the new model. Any information would be useful - thanks.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: jazzaro on July 25, 2020, 01:12:13 PM
Some findings from today's trip which was mainly motorway.

1. The direct drive gearing on the Crosstar is 2360 rpm (give or take a few rpm) at 62 mph (GPS speed - about 63.5 on the speedometer). The normal Jazz may be slightly different due to the different wheels / tyres.

......

On a different subject, I put one of these LED bulbs https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/501-Led-Cob-White-T10-Xenon-Bulbs-W5w-Side-Light-Canbus-Error-Free-Wedge-194-168/382894921689 in the boot and it's a lot brighter than the original bulb. Given that the price is for 10, it makes Honda's £50 in the vehicle configurator accessories section (under Audio and Electronics) look a bit greedy. I've also put LED bulbs in the reversing lights but won't pass comment on their effectiveness until I need to reverse in darkness. I think the only remaining non-LED bulbs are the rear turn indicators. I'm not planning to change those due to (i) it's not obvious how to get to them and (ii) relatively expensive special bulbs are needed to avoid the flash rate going beserk.
A lot of interesting infos, thank you.
About revs at 62mph, the non-Crosstar will rev 4% faster at same speed, so about 2450rpm; the ratio is much longer than the 6th gear of my 1.3 16v EX.
About led bulbs..  the GR Jazz has all leds but reversing lights (W16W) and rear turn (WY21W). Since there are no WY21W with embedded canbus protection, you will have to install a resistor kit to use this bulbs.
I also bought some leds for reversing lights, now I have some Osrams and they work fine, better than standard bulbs. The first led bulb I put has not been reliable, it starded blinking afters some months.
About the boot bulb, first I put a led bulb, then when it broke I put this https://www.amazon.it/Bagagliaio-Baule-Honda-Accord-Insight/dp/B01EYP2DDI , now I have more light and reliability.
With the earlier Jazz, the light goes out at 45°C so unless the radiator was above that temperature an early Jazz would show the light. With the Crosstar that could take a long time to achieve and the light would become annoying to some drivers.
Newer Jazz have the T° sensor on the engine, before the thermostatic valve.
If Jazz hybrid "works" as Toyota hybrids, the petrol engine tries to stay always over 45°C, it's safer for mechanics.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: Mellorshark on July 25, 2020, 01:48:29 PM
According to the manual, there isn't a blue light. Just white and red for over temperature.

Re seats: we haven't found a problem with the seats in the EX.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: jazzaro on July 25, 2020, 04:25:34 PM
Re seats: we haven't found a problem with the seats in the EX.
Same for us, also after 8 hours of highway.
The press release writes that seats have been improved.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: culzean on July 26, 2020, 07:58:00 AM
According to the manual, there isn't a blue light. Just white and red for over temperature.

Re seats: we haven't found a problem with the seats in the EX.

Whatever happened to proper temperature gauges where you can actually see whats happening,  even my motorbike has one........
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: jazzaro on July 26, 2020, 08:35:18 AM

Whatever happened to proper temperature gauges where you can actually see whats happening,  even my motorbike has one........
If you want a proper temperature gauge you have to run back to cars without canbus network, more than twenty years ago..
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: culzean on July 26, 2020, 09:42:17 AM

Whatever happened to proper temperature gauges where you can actually see whats happening,  even my motorbike has one........
If you want a proper temperature gauge you have to run back to cars without canbus network, more than twenty years ago..

Just think it is cost-cutting on Jazz, Jazz has never had one even back to GD, my Civic has one, surely it could at least be on the multifunction display like MPG etc.   The one on 2016 motorbike is just a bar type electronic display with 8 bars that light up as temperature rises.  The engine temperature data has to go back to ECU anyway.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: Jocko on July 26, 2020, 09:55:21 AM
I've never found the lack of a temperature gauge all that important. The blue and red light works great for me.
The new Jazz and Crasstar has an even better system with a White light coming on as the temperature rises above normal, suggesting you "drive slowly to prevent overheating" and the Red light telling you it is overheating and to stop.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: culzean on July 26, 2020, 09:58:29 AM
I've never found the lack of a temperature gauge all that important. The blue and red light works great for me.
The new Jazz and Crasstar has an even better system with a White light coming on as the temperature rises above normal, suggesting you "drive slowly to prevent overheating" and the Red light telling you it is overheating and to stop.

I simply do not like cheapskate on-off indicators rather than proper displays that show you what is happening and can give you advanced warning instead of 'Oh Sh!t whats that red light' and steam coming from bonnet area...
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: Jocko on July 26, 2020, 10:10:10 AM
can give you advanced warning instead of 'Oh Sh!t whats that red light' and steam coming from bonnet area...
That is what the White light on the Jazz/Crosstar does.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: jazzaro on July 26, 2020, 01:23:06 PM
Just think it is cost-cutting on Jazz, Jazz has never had one even back to GD, my Civic has one, surely it could at least be on the multifunction display like MPG etc.   The one on 2016 motorbike is just a bar type electronic display with 8 bars that light up as temperature rises.  The engine temperature data has to go back to ECU anyway.
Surely one of the matters is cost cutting. Another matter is that many people does not know what is that gauge... My wife asked me what was that symbol on the dash after 5 years; recent thermostatic valves are reliable, often they get older and they open the flux before the standard temperature so it's difficult to see steam coming from the bonnet.
Since the CANBUS network, coolant gauges are controlled by the ecu so you do not read the real temperature, but they only show that the engine is warmed.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: Jocko on July 26, 2020, 04:46:36 PM
My Jazz, even in the hottest of Scottish weather, has never as much as brought the fan on. 93°C is the hottest ever recorded.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: John Ratsey on July 26, 2020, 05:25:59 PM
Surely one of the matters is cost cutting. Another matter is that many people does not know what is that gauge...
Too true! I'll have to re-read the manual to find out which of the innumerable icons relates to temperature.

Regarding the seat comfort, I'm fairly short so I have the seat as high as it will go and I sit nearly upright so I see the road through the upper part of my varifocal lenses. My current thinking is that I'm not getting enough support fron the back part of the seat squab (see photo) so I've ordered a wedge-shaped cushion https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B003JLYPO4. This will reveal if my conclusion is correct. Ideally the seat squab should rotate forwards slightly when the sea is raised. The front seat passenger's complaint is insufficient support in the lower back which can probably be fixed by tilting the seat back one or two clicks.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: Jocko on July 26, 2020, 05:42:38 PM
I'll have to re-read the manual to find out which of the innumerable icons relates to temperature.
I downloaded the manual and it is as clear as a thesis on Quantum mechanics. I normally work on the principal of drive the car/use the equipment/work with the software, then when something crops up that you don't know what to do read the book.
Man's approach being, "If all else fails, read the manual".
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: jazzaro on July 26, 2020, 05:47:33 PM
Regarding the seat comfort, I'm fairly short so I have the seat as high as it will go and I sit nearly upright so I see the road through the upper part of my varifocal lenses. My current thinking is that I'm not getting enough support fron the back part of the seat squab (see photo) so I've ordered a wedge-shaped cushion https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B003JLYPO4. This will reveal if my conclusion is correct. Ideally the seat squab should rotate forwards slightly when the sea is raised. The front seat passenger's complaint is insufficient support in the lower back which can probably be fixed by tilting the seat back one or two clicks.
mmmh, in some cases the front part of the squab is higher to avoid submarining in case of frontal crash.
That's strange, my seat seems to be ok...
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: culzean on July 26, 2020, 06:11:28 PM
Since the CANBUS network, coolant gauges are controlled by the ecu so you do not read the real temperature, but they only show that the engine is warmed.

Plug a scangauge into OBD and it can display engine temp in degrees C or F....the information is there, coolant temp sensor produces a voltage proportional to tempersture. 
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: jazzaro on July 27, 2020, 10:34:26 AM

Plug a scangauge into OBD and it can display engine temp in degrees C or F....the information is there, coolant temp sensor produces a voltage proportional to tempersture.
I mean that the dash does not show the real T° but a sort of filtered average, while the ECU knows the precise value. If you want to know it, you have to plug a scangauge.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: equaliser on July 27, 2020, 10:50:00 AM

Plug a scangauge into OBD and it can display engine temp in degrees C or F....the information is there, coolant temp sensor produces a voltage proportional to tempersture.
I mean that the dash does not show the real T° but a sort of filtered average, while the ECU knows the precise value. If you want to know it, you have to plug a scangauge.

I've been using a Vgate iCar Pro bluetooth OBD2 with the Car Scanner app in my iPhone to get these values but I'm not sure it's much use in day to day driving. I've learned to do without a temp gauge and the blue light is a good enough warning that the engine is cold and not to work it too hard until it's off.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: Jocko on July 27, 2020, 11:02:41 AM
the blue light is a good enough warning that the engine is cold and not to work it too hard until it's off.
I agree. I have used the ScanGauge to monitor the temp, but just out of interest. It is amazing how long it takes to get at or near fully warmed up, on a cold winter day.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: equaliser on July 27, 2020, 11:25:34 AM
I agree. I have used the ScanGauge to monitor the temp, but just out of interest. It is amazing how long it takes to get at or near fully warmed up, on a cold winter day.

At the moment it's only taking a few minutes of driving for the blue light to go out so it'll be interesting to see how much longer it takes in the winter months. I remember watching a YouTube video of someone in Poland (I think) using an OBD2 app to monitor coolant temperature in the winter in a GK3 Jazz, it took a long time and actually never got very high.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: jazzaro on July 27, 2020, 01:35:46 PM
I've been using a Vgate iCar Pro bluetooth OBD2 with the Car Scanner app in my iPhone to get these values but I'm not sure it's much use in day to day driving. I've learned to do without a temp gauge and the blue light is a good enough warning that the engine is cold and not to work it too hard until it's off.
I agree, a blue and red light are enaugh for daily driving. We must consider that also what we think to be a normal gauges is a software modified panel, so it shows 90°C even when the real temperature fluctuates between 80 and 105°C.
In the past  I 've used the scangauge to check some thermostatic valves, usually they should start opening at 88-92°C depending from the engine but, if you check them, you will see that they gradually reduce their opening temperature  while they get older, the wax inside the cylinder of the valve slowly decays so the plate will not follow the original opening law.  So even the gauge shows normal 90°C, the engine runs at 80°C, and you will detect this only with the scangauge.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: madasafish on July 27, 2020, 01:42:26 PM
I considered myself obsessive when driving a car in my early days - 50 years ago.

Now I have matured (like a good wine?    :P ), cars have matured as well..

I dislike having lots of instruments to read.. After all I bought a computer in a car to run the engine, so surely it can tell me when it is poorly...
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: Megansbob on July 27, 2020, 09:40:53 PM
Hi I took delivery of a Crosstar on Friday after trading in my 2018 mk 3.  I looked the Jazz Ex and was not impressed with the alloys which looked like cheap plastic wheel trims and it would cost me £880 to change them. We road tested the Crosstar and what a diff ends from our Mk3 imo.  Delighted with it after. Long run up to and around the lakes on Sunday. It seems to absorb bumps in the road far better that ever. The enhanced sound system is fabulous. Pity they don’t offer it to the ordinary Jazz.   The only difference is no heated steering wheel (no loss) and no blind spot indicator, again no big loss. So far so good. 
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: John Ratsey on July 27, 2020, 10:39:21 PM
Hi I took delivery of a Crosstar on Friday after trading in my 2018 mk 3.  I looked the Jazz Ex and was not impressed with the alloys which looked like cheap plastic wheel trims and it would cost me £880 to change them. We road tested the Crosstar and what a diff ends from our Mk3 imo.   
I looked closely at the wheels on my Crosstar and think the black parts are plastic. I can't be sure without attacking a black area with a sharp object which I'm not planning to do. Nonetheless, the effect is very nice and there's less shiny metal to try to keep in good condition. Overall, the vehicle is a massive improvement on the Mk 3 Jazz while my dealer told me that the Crosstar is a bigger proportion of the Mk 4 Jazz sales than Honda had expected.

Back to the subject of engine coolant temperature, I can't explain why the Torque app isn't getting the data from my OBDII reader - the display is blank. However, I suspect that the hybrid system will shorten the winter warm-up period by giving the engine some work to do by putting some charge into the battery and avoid the slow warm-up when the engine is idling and doing no work. If the battery is already at 60% or more then the vehicle may use the battery and turn the engine off although there's the question of how the cabin will be heated (maybe that's the reason for the heated seats) or the windscreen defrosted (we might find there's an electric heating element in the heating system to provide warmth when the engine is off). So far it seems that Honda have thought through the details fairly well.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: jazzaro on July 27, 2020, 11:13:43 PM
I looked closely at the wheels on my Crosstar and think the black parts are plastic. I can't be sure without attacking a black area with a sharp object which I'm not planning to do. Nonetheless, the effect is very nice and there's less shiny metal to try to keep in good condition. Overall, the vehicle is a massive improvement on the Mk 3 Jazz while my dealer told me that the Crosstar is a bigger proportion of the Mk 4 Jazz sales than Honda had expected.
Now suv and crossover are trendy so no surprise for me...
Quote
Back to the subject of engine coolant temperature, I can't explain why the Torque app isn't getting the data from my OBDII reader - the display is blank. However, I suspect that the hybrid system will shorten the winter warm-up period by giving the engine some work to do by putting some charge into the battery and avoid the slow warm-up when the engine is idling and doing no work. If the battery is already at 60% or more then the vehicle may use the battery and turn the engine off although there's the question of how the cabin will be heated (maybe that's the reason for the heated seats) or the windscreen defrosted (we might find there's an electric heating element in the heating system to provide warmth when the engine is off). So far it seems that Honda have thought through the details fairly well.
The torque software does not read the coolant temperature because it does not know the data code, maybe it will read it after an upgrade.
About the cabin heating, it's simple: if the driver will ask heat from the climate system, the engine will be set on to provide hot coolant to the cabin heater, as it happens in every full hybrid car.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: chicksee on July 29, 2020, 01:52:16 PM
Very happy with my Crosstar, handles well and mph so far is goodish 61mpg but have only done short distances so hopefully this will increase on a decent run.
One thing that is bothering me is tyre pressures, handbook says 38/39 psi which seems quite high to me is everyone using these pressures?
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: jazzaro on July 29, 2020, 02:19:37 PM

One thing that is bothering me is tyre pressures, handbook says 38/39 psi which seems quite high to me is everyone using these pressures?
Are you an engeneer or do you work in a tyre service?
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: Jocko on July 29, 2020, 02:47:45 PM
One thing that is bothering me is tyre pressures, handbook says 38/39 psi which seems quite high to me is everyone using these pressures?
Is that what it says on the door pillar? Handbook I have seen says "See label on driver's door jam".
Compared with some vehicles these pressures are quite low. Compared to the earlier Jazz models they are a smidgeon higher.
These are the pressures Honda recommends for the vehicle.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: John Ratsey on July 29, 2020, 07:07:51 PM
Is that what it says on the door pillar? Handbook I have seen says "See label on driver's door jam".

These are the pressures Honda recommends for the vehicle.
The label on my Crosstar says 35psi front, 33 psi rear.

I put some fuel in my Crosstar today. 469 miles and the fuel gauge had dropped from 4 bars (out of 10) to 3 bars about 20 miles earlier. I put it 30.5 litres which indicates 69.3mpg while the car claimed 73mpg - a 5% difference. However, this assumes that the dealer put as much fuel in the tank as I did on the refill. The next refill will be more representative.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: John Ratsey on August 01, 2020, 09:46:14 PM
Very happy with my Crosstar, handles well and mph so far is goodish 61mpg but have only done short distances so hopefully this will increase on a decent run.
By keeping an eye on the trip mpg I can see that there's the usual hit on fuel economy until the engine is warmed up. When starting from cold even on a hot day (ie yesterday) my Crosstar likes to run the engine for about a minute in fast idle when I power up the vehicle whether or not the vehicle is actually moving. Short trip fuel economy is therefore likely suffering from the cold starts although there might be enough warmth in the engine if restarting within an hour or two to avoid this behaviour.

That said, yesterday I did a 70 mile return trip with about an 8 hour gap (so there was the cold start behaviour for both legs). The route was along less good A roads with a good scattering of villages and speed restrictions. The vehicle claimed 79mpg on the outgoing leg and 80mpg on the return (dry warm weather with little wind provides optimum conditions for fuel economy). Some of the road provided situations where the Road Departure Mitigation System was complaining about my driving. I've yet to succeed in turning it off which can, according to the book, only be done on a per trip basis. My attempt to practice this while the vehicle was stopped, but with engine running, didn't work as the short cut button did nothing so I presume that it has to be turned off while the vehicle is moving so what's meant to be a safety system becomes a hazard as well as a distraction.

I travelled with the benefit of the cushion I had ordered (see a previous post) and I was much more comfortable. With the seat high I had too much weight on my thighs. The cushion, plus the seat lowered to leave me at much the same height as without the cushion, has fixed this problem. The only glitch is that the cushion is slightly too wide to sit comfortably in the depression in the seat.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: Jocko on August 01, 2020, 11:11:33 PM
Road Departure Mitigation System was complaining about my driving.
Would a slightly different driving style satisfy it?
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: richardfrost on August 02, 2020, 08:49:15 AM
Hi John. Twice a year I take part in 24 hour running events. It means camping for the weekend. The only time I do that. I bought (rather than borrowed) a tent for the last one but returned it as it leaked. I spent the second night sleeping in my RAV4 front seat as best I could. The seats don’t fold flat and anyway the Toyota has a massive step in the loading bay where the batteries and their vents are.

Why am I telling you this?

Well one of the intriguing things about the Crosstar is the fold flat seats. As someone just short of six foot, I am wondering if I could sleep in the Jazz or Crosstar with the seats and the front passenger seat folded flat. Does this seem feasible? I am imagining a half inflated mattress placed in the car to provide a little bit of cushioning and smooth out any gaps.

What do you think? How long is the space folded flat?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: jazzaro on August 02, 2020, 12:06:48 PM

By keeping an eye on the trip mpg I can see that there's the usual hit on fuel economy until the engine is warmed up. When starting from cold even on a hot day (ie yesterday) my Crosstar likes to run the engine for about a minute in fast idle when I power up the vehicle whether or not the vehicle is actually moving. Short trip fuel economy is therefore likely suffering from the cold starts although there might be enough warmth in the engine if restarting within an hour or two to avoid this behaviour.

I could read the same words in Toyota hybrid forums, so I assume this is a standard or necessary behaviour.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: Jocko on August 02, 2020, 02:52:47 PM
Would a slightly different driving style satisfy it?
I was thinking about this while travelling a well-lined country B road and I could see it being a pig for Road Departure Mitigation System. You cannot sit bang in between the lines unless you want to hit every manhole and irregularity, and you would have to drop 10 mph if you wanted to corner without the smoothing you get by coming into the kerb and going out to the centre line. Maybe manufacturers should think about having it operate at speeds above 50 mph or so because its real value is in motorways and high-speed roads where boredom can lead to lack of concentration.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: culzean on August 02, 2020, 03:27:01 PM
Lack of concentration becoming more of a problem, not helped by all this support tech, which leads to complacency which leads to lack of attention on the road....
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: John Ratsey on August 02, 2020, 10:50:48 PM
Would a slightly different driving style satisfy it?
The best route along a slightly wiggly, but empty, road is to smooth out the bends (but no cutting blind corners - there might be a surprise awaiting). Anyway, the good news is that today I think I succeeded in turning this off. I was confused because the icon needed to turn it off looks like the lane keep assistance icon.

What do you think? How long is the space folded flat?
I'll investigate this aspect tomorrow although it's a feature I'm not currently planning to use.

Lack of concentration becoming more of a problem, not helped by all this support tech, which leads to complacency which leads to lack of attention on the road....
My own concern is not lack of concentration but on too many warnings becoming a distraction. That said, when I did my motorway trip I drifted a little and the Lane Departure warning system briefly work up. It's a very effective shaking of the steering wheel similar to getting a wheel onto a rumble strip.

Another trip today about 35 miles each way on a faster A road. Outbound just me and returning with a passenger. The car claimed 83mpg outbound and 74mpg on the return. While the return trip had a bit more load I think the key factor in the difference was the wind. Only about 10mph but a tail wind on the outward leg and a headwind on the rerturn which means that the aerodynamic drag losses (which are more significant on a relatively high and short vehicle with a blunt rear end) were substantially different between the two journeys. With the drag being proportional to relative wind speed squared, one leg of a 50mph journey has the drag of 40mph (40 x 40 = 1600) while the other leg has the drag of 60mph (60 x 60 = 3600) which is more than double.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: richardfrost on August 03, 2020, 11:54:45 AM
What do you think? How long is the space folded flat?
I'll investigate this aspect tomorrow although it's a feature I'm not currently planning to use.

Thanks.

Maybe an Ikea visit perhaps?

Would be a huge factor for me if I didn't need to buy a tent for just four nights a year.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: TnTkr on August 03, 2020, 12:35:23 PM
In west side of the pond there are multiple threads about people camping in their Fits. That is in all three generations (GD, GE and GK). I would be surprised if the fourth generation were any worse.

Here are links to some threads (I hope there is no policy restriction to link to other forums):
https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/general-fit-talk/90939-turning-my-fit-into-mobile-camper.html (https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/general-fit-talk/90939-turning-my-fit-into-mobile-camper.html)
https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/2nd-generation-ge-08-13/74119-have-you-gone-camping-sleeping-your-fit.html (https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/2nd-generation-ge-08-13/74119-have-you-gone-camping-sleeping-your-fit.html)
https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/3rd-gen-gk-specific-fit-interior-modifications-sub-forum/96598-camping-my-fit-need-advice.html (https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/3rd-gen-gk-specific-fit-interior-modifications-sub-forum/96598-camping-my-fit-need-advice.html)
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: John Ratsey on August 03, 2020, 02:01:04 PM
Would be a huge factor for me if I didn't need to buy a tent for just four nights a year.
In the attached photos it's about 1.6m from the pedals to the top of the reclined front seat and at least another 0.8m to the inside of the boot door. I think Honda advertise the ability to carry a surf board as a standard Jazz feature and the longer ones are around 2.4m. However, the flat fold isn't complete flat. You would need a suitable cushion to fill the depression at the front seat squab and something fatter to the rear of the top of the front seat. Nonetheless, with the right bits of padding it would be much more comfortable than a cattle class plane seat and I've spend a fair few hours sleeping in those.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: equaliser on August 03, 2020, 02:27:59 PM
Does it not do the lounge seating like the Mk3?
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: ColinB on August 03, 2020, 02:45:59 PM
Would be a huge factor for me if I didn't need to buy a tent for just four nights a year.
In the attached photos it's about 1.6m from the pedals to the top of the reclined front seat and at least another 0.8m to the inside of the boot door. I think Honda advertise the ability to carry a surf board as a standard Jazz feature and the longer ones are around 2.4m. However, the flat fold isn't complete flat. You would need a suitable cushion to fill the depression at the front seat squab and something fatter to the rear of the top of the front seat. Nonetheless, with the right bits of padding it would be much more comfortable than a cattle class plane seat and I've spend a fair few hours sleeping in those.
I thought the point was that the back of the front passenger seat of the Mk3 folds forward onto the squab to make it possible to take long items. Does the Mk 4 not do that?
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: richardfrost on August 03, 2020, 02:53:32 PM
I thought the point was that the back of the front passenger seat of the Mk3 folds forward onto the squab to make it possible to take long items. Does the Mk 4 not do that?
This was what I had in mind, with the rear seats folded flat and the front seat back folded forwards.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: John Ratsey on August 03, 2020, 06:36:46 PM
I thought the point was that the back of the front passenger seat of the Mk3 folds forward onto the squab to make it possible to take long items. Does the Mk 4 not do that?
This was what I had in mind, with the rear seats folded flat and the front seat back folded forwards.
The front seat backs don't tip forwards very far - the new "more comfortable" seats have side support which limits the rotation.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: richardfrost on August 03, 2020, 08:24:47 PM
I thought the point was that the back of the front passenger seat of the Mk3 folds forward onto the squab to make it possible to take long items. Does the Mk 4 not do that?
This was what I had in mind, with the rear seats folded flat and the front seat back folded forwards.
The front seat backs don't tip forwards very far - the new "more comfortable" seats have side support which limits the rotation.

Guess that answers my question, thanks. So diagonally across the load space or sitting up in a reclined seat are my choices. Or modifying my lad's '05 SE, which will likely be back in my posession by next Spring, as per this link from TnTkr... https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/general-fit-talk/90939-turning-my-fit-into-mobile-camper.html
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: TnTkr on August 04, 2020, 04:55:46 AM
If you build a raised floor, that gives more length even with less tipping of forward seat. It could be sufficient for sleeping also in your Crosstar.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: richardfrost on August 04, 2020, 08:37:05 AM
I would not be building anything into a new car, like the Crosstar. My question was really simple. With an air bed or other cushioning, is it possible to create a flatt(ish) six foot sleeping space in a Jazz  4 or Crosstar. I think the answer is no. I am intrigued by the thought of doing it in our Mk1 though.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: John Ratsey on August 04, 2020, 02:09:53 PM
You can just about get your 6ft diagonally with the rear seats folded flat and the front seats pushed forward.  You would, however, need to put something in the gap between the back of the front seats and the front of the folded back seats. I would also note that the Mk 4 Jazz boot floor isn't completely flat but Honda have provided a ramp between the main part of the floor and the area over the batteries. I think they chose this arrangement to maximise capacity but I don't think that ramp would upset a pair of sleeping legs.



Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: richardfrost on August 04, 2020, 04:05:15 PM
You can just about get your 6ft diagonally with the rear seats folded flat and the front seats pushed forward.  You would, however, need to put something in the gap between the back of the front seats and the front of the folded back seats. I would also note that the Mk 4 Jazz boot floor isn't completely flat but Honda have provided a ramp between the main part of the floor and the area over the batteries. I think they chose this arrangement to maximise capacity but I don't think that ramp would upset a pair of sleeping legs.

Thanks John, that is exactly what I needed to know. A part inflated air mattress would provide a flat enough sleeping space. The way these events work, you arrive on a Friday and sleep that night. Then you run pretty much non stop from noon Saturday to noon Sunday but might need somewhere to flop for an hour or two in and amongst. Then you need an hour or two of sleep on the Sunday afternoon so you're fresh enough to drive home. Soulds ideal to me. No need to deal with tents. Would probably just need air deflectors so could have windows open a crack in any weather and some sort of means of blocking out the windows. Cardboard and bluetack springs to mind.

Cheers..
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: Kenneve on August 04, 2020, 05:04:01 PM
It occurs to me that there may be a serious problem, when it comes to descending steep hills.
Is there any serious engine braking available?

I have in mind the Devon banks like Countisbury and Porlock hills where there are 1:4 or 1:5 sections, such that with the earlier Jazz cars you would probably change down to 3rd or even 2nd gear + brakes to safely negotiate such slopes.

Countisbury hill is circa 2 miles long and descends around 700 feet and if you are relying on brakes alone, I could well see brake fade developing.
Perhaps someone can explain the procedure for such situations, or is brake fade a thing of the past?

 
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: John Ratsey on August 04, 2020, 06:29:39 PM
Then you run pretty much non stop from noon Saturday to noon Sunday but might need somewhere to flop for an hour or two in and amongst. Then you need an hour or two of sleep on the Sunday afternoon so you're fresh enough to drive home.  Would probably just need air deflectors so could have windows open a crack in any weather and some sort of means of blocking out the windows.
After running 24 hours most people would be able to sleep on a concrete park bench so a Jazz should be luxury. You've got the two options - diagonally in the back or a laid-back front seat with a few cushions to add extra length (but there isn't much width) so something should work. As for ventilation, I included the optional visors in my purchase deal (list price is expensive but they were buried in the deal) and they would provide the ventilation you want. They also look good with the black roof (see photo) and provide a bit of shading from sun on the side of the vehicle.

It occurs to me that there may be a serious problem, when it comes to descending steep hills.
Is there any serious engine braking available?
 
Perhaps someone can explain the procedure for such situations, or is brake fade a thing of the past?
That's an interesting question. The system is programmed to charge the battery but that will be full well before the vehicle reaches the bottom of the hill. Does Honda then rely on the brakes? It's discs all round so shouldn't overheat quickly and the front discs are ventilated (I've just checked) so I suspect the answer is that the discs get a good polish (regenerative braking means that they don't get as much use as in normal vehicles). A Devon hill is a blip in the terrain compared to an Alpine pass. That said, the technology exists under the bonnet to use direct drive from wheels to an engine in braking mode but this would be best enabled if the vehicle knew it was going down a long hill. The technology to do that exists, using a digital terrain model and tracking the vehicle's position but, as far as I know, Honda haven't adopted this approach.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: Jocko on August 04, 2020, 06:33:09 PM
Modern brakes don't fade. Not unless you have cheap and nasty pads. Maybe descending an Alp, but I have driven many long steep descents in the Highlands, Lake District and Yorkshire Dales and never had an issue. And that is with automatics with virtually nil engine braking.
The B mode offers substantial regeneration, so that covers lack of engine braking.

John, are you saying that a two-mile descent will fully recharge the battery? Is it a AA?
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: TnTkr on August 04, 2020, 06:37:30 PM
I agree, all brakes do fade, but not during that small descends.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: Jocko on August 04, 2020, 06:46:08 PM
I agree, all brakes do fade
But modern brakes don't fade sufficiently to substantially affect their performance. Just releasing the brake for a few a second or two allows them to cool. That is why modern brakes have hard pads and servo assist.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: Kenneve on August 04, 2020, 07:08:31 PM
I accept what you say about regenerative braking, but I can’t imagine it provides anything like as much ‘resistance’ compared with an engine in 3rd or 2nd gear.
As I understand it, correct me if I’m wrong, there is a direct drive (no reduction gear) between the engine and the motor/generator which is engaged with some form of clutch.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: Kenneve on August 04, 2020, 08:34:02 PM
I accept what you say about regenerative braking, but I can’t imagine it provides anything like as much ‘resistance’ compared with an engine in 3rd or 2nd gear.
As I understand it, correct me if I’m wrong, there is a direct drive (no reduction gear) between the engine and the motor/generator which is engaged with some form of clutch.

Oops pressed the post button twice🙄🙄
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: John Ratsey on August 04, 2020, 09:10:10 PM
And that is with automatics with virtually nil engine braking.
The B mode offers substantial regeneration, so that covers lack of engine braking.

John, are you saying that a two-mile descent will fully recharge the battery? Is it a AA?
I've been down quite a lot of hills in my various CVT Honda cars and just left the vehicle to do what it wanted. A year or two back I was going down a long hill in Scotland and noticed that the engine revs were quite high so the car must have decided to do some engine braking, but that was the only time I remember it happened.

I know from watching the battery gauge that a medium sized hill will easily fully charge the battery (although the battery charge level might be anywhere between 30% and 60% when starting the descent). One kWh capacity can propel the vehicle for a mile or two on the level but it's the going up hills which need the energy (ask any cyclist) and, conversely, going down a hill makes that energy available for reuse. B mode will cause more aggressive slowing of the vehicle when the accelerator pedal is lifted but I've noticed that in D lifting the pedal causes more slowing of the vehicle than in vehicles with petrol engine + CVT. I find this to be a welcome feature - reduce the accelerator pressure when needing to decelerate for a speed restriction and the vehicle will usually slow down enough without needing to touch the brake pedal.

I accept what you say about regenerative braking, but I can’t imagine it provides anything like as much ‘resistance’ compared with an engine in 3rd or 2nd gear.
As I understand it, correct me if I’m wrong, there is a direct drive (no reduction gear) between the engine and the motor/generator which is engaged with some form of clutch.
There is a direct drive with some intermediate gearing which the vehicle engages at higher speed but it's the equivalent of 5th gear (around 2200rpm at 60mph - details in a previous post). The motor which drives the wheels can work as a generator for the regenerative braking while the generator attached to the engine can work as a motor (that's how the engine gets started) so the capability exists to drive the engine at higher rpm for braking. The unknown is whether Honda has programmed the vehicle to use this capability and in what circumstances to use it. One problem I see is that the vehicle hasn't got a clue how long the hill is. When I get to go down some bigger hills (which may not be this year) then I'll watch what happens.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: Jocko on August 04, 2020, 10:50:06 PM
I accept what you say about regenerative braking, but I can’t imagine it provides anything like as much ‘resistance’ compared with an engine in 3rd or 2nd gear.
On some vehicles, the Honda-e among them, the regenerative braking is so extreme that one pedal operation is possible. It will bring the car from motorway speeds down to under walking pace without having to touch the brakes. It is like driving a dodgem.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: ColinB on August 05, 2020, 08:05:40 AM
... reduce the accelerator pressure when needing to decelerate for a speed restriction and the vehicle will usually slow down enough without needing to touch the brake pedal.
On some vehicles ... the regenerative braking ... will bring the car from motorway speeds down to under walking pace without having to touch the brakes.
So if you don't need to touch the brake pedal, is the car clever enough to illuminate the brake lights when regenerating? If not, perhaps the considerate driver ought to lightly touch the brake as a courtesy warning to the following driver.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: equaliser on August 05, 2020, 09:40:37 AM
... reduce the accelerator pressure when needing to decelerate for a speed restriction and the vehicle will usually slow down enough without needing to touch the brake pedal.
On some vehicles ... the regenerative braking ... will bring the car from motorway speeds down to under walking pace without having to touch the brakes.
So if you don't need to touch the brake pedal, is the car clever enough to illuminate the brake lights when regenerating? If not, perhaps the considerate driver ought to lightly touch the brake as a courtesy warning to the following driver.

Yes, any regenerative braking stronger than 0.5G activates the brake lights.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: madasafish on August 05, 2020, 11:19:54 AM
I have had brake fade once in 50 odd years of driving: mt second car - a 1946 Rover 16 saloon with drum brakes all round  - on a long downhill (2miles?)  in the Scottish Highlands..

The smell and smoke from hot brake  linings was vile: I opened the front opening windscreen (Yes really!) and the sunroof to get rid of the smell. As the brakes were rod operated, there was no brake fluid to boil. The only way of stopping it was to put the car in second gear and switch off the engine... There were gravel runoff areas on the sharper corners near the bottom.. I never quite needed them..

Subsequent journeys on the same road with more modern disk braked cars (Triumph 2.5PI, MG 1100) had no fade or drama.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: jazzaro on August 05, 2020, 11:32:34 AM
It occurs to me that there may be a serious problem, when it comes to descending steep hills.
Is there any serious engine braking available?

I have in mind the Devon banks like Countisbury and Porlock hills where there are 1:4 or 1:5 sections, such that with the earlier Jazz cars you would probably change down to 3rd or even 2nd gear + brakes to safely negotiate such slopes.

When you leave the gas pedal and you slightly press the brake, if the battery is not fully charge you will slow down with regenerative braking: the B position is only a stronger standard regenerative level.
If the battery is at 100%, the regenerated electricity will be sent to the electric motor linked to the flywheel, moving the petrol engine with the throttle valve closed so gaining the usual engine braking you would have with a normal car.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: jazzaro on August 05, 2020, 11:39:48 AM
I have had brake fade once in 50 odd years of driving: mt second car - a 1946 Rover 16 saloon with drum brakes all round  - on a long downhill (2miles?)  in the Scottish Highlands..

Me once with a Fiat Tipo mk1, a car known to have light brakes (its disc rotors were the same of the Uno), first fading and then, when I was able to stop, vapour lock.
And it happened this downhill:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Passo+dello+Stelvio/@46.5293741,10.4444522,15z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x47831ae455181c1d:0x1d0709882e83eb60!8m2!3d46.5293602!4d10.453207
In the path between Bormio and Prato allo Stelvio it was easy to see new car prototypes (BMW, Mercedes, VAG, Alfa Romeo) testing their brakes, because the downhill is very very very strong.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: Downsizer on August 05, 2020, 11:58:58 AM
I've been down quite a lot of hills in my various CVT Honda cars and just left the vehicle to do what it wanted. A year or two back I was going down a long hill in Scotland and noticed that the engine revs were quite high so the car must have decided to do some engine braking, but that was the only time I remember it happened.
I've experienced this on long descents with cruise control on.  I assumed that it kicks in when the speed is exceeding the set cruise speed.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: Kenneve on August 06, 2020, 12:22:47 PM
On a CVT car, I don't believe that cruise control provides any braking, if you exceed the set limit when going down a hill.
Generally engine speed will rise to circa 3000 rpm to provide some resistance but thats all.
If I'm going down a steep hill, I usually use the down paddle, to force the CVT to change down, probably to an indicated 3rd gear or even 2nd.

So coming back to hybrid car, what happens descending a steep hill, if your battery is already fully charged?
I just can't see how the engine can hold you back. since there is no significant reduction gear (equivalent to the lower gears on a Manual gearbox)  between the engine and the motor/generator, so you are utterly reliant on the brakes alone.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: John Ratsey on August 06, 2020, 01:07:18 PM
So coming back to hybrid car, what happens descending a steep hill, if your battery is already fully charged?
I just can't see how the engine can hold you back. since there is no significant reduction gear (equivalent to the lower gears on a Manual gearbox)  between the engine and the motor/generator, so you are utterly reliant on the brakes alone.
Under normal driving conditions the generator attached to the engine drive the motor attached to the wheels. However, the generator is capable of functioning as a motor (that's how the engine is started - no other starter motor) and the motor connected to the wheels becomes a generator for regenerative braking, so there's no significant problem I can see with the power from the wheels being used to turn the engine with valves closed to provide additional braking. The electronics will try to spin the engine as whatever speed is deemed appropriate. Until someone reports that this happens we don't know if Honda have enabled this facility. The design challenge as I see it is knowing when to use the engine as a brake to take the load off the discs. Suddenly doing a quick burst of engine braking at the bottom of a medium hill could annoy drivers. I'll put the hypothetical question to my dealer.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: richardfrost on August 07, 2020, 07:23:51 AM
Well on my RAV4, which is not the current model, has an earlier Toyota hybrid system, but has 6 virtual gears, engine braking just works, whether the battery is showing as full or not. I do this most days as I live up a long steep hill and where I live is a hilly place. I don’t think about how it happens, I just know that it does.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: John Ratsey on August 08, 2020, 09:27:46 PM
I forget if I've previously mentioned that the speed sign recognition system hasn't fixed the problem of wrongly detecting signs on branching roads such as those passed when going round a roundabout. I would have thought it could exclude such signs by either figuring out that the vehicle didn't pass between them or by taking account of the direction that the front wheels are pointing. There are times when using the speed limiter based on the signs would be useful but not when there's going to be a conflict between driver and vehicle over the correct speed. A vehicle wanting to travel at 20mph on a 40mph road is going to be annoying.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: culzean on August 09, 2020, 07:55:40 AM
I forget if I've previously mentioned that the speed sign recognition system hasn't fixed the problem of wrongly detecting signs on branching roads such as those passed when going round a roundabout. I would have thought it could exclude such signs by either figuring out that the vehicle didn't pass between them or by taking account of the direction that the front wheels are pointing. There are times when using the speed limiter based on the signs would be useful but not when there's going to be a conflict between driver and vehicle over the correct speed. A vehicle wanting to travel at 20mph on a 40mph road is going to be annoying.

Notice how quiet it has gone on autonomous vehicles ( I haven't seen any 'amazing breakthroughs' or hype for almost 2 years now,  when before that the news was full of how clever they were, how accidents were a thing of the past caused by stupid humans,  all we really saw was vehicles going round tracks at <20mph and hitting barriers ) - they have realised that replacing humans ain't easy,  the situation you experience with the auto speed recognition is so easy for humans we don't even think about it, but for a machine it is almost impossible. That is just a small fraction of the problems you run into when you look to replace human judgement with machine AI. A five year old has better judgement and motor controls than any autonomous car may ever have.  We take so many things into consideration when making judgements,  a lot of them very nuanced, such as is a driver looking at us and their body language ( the bit we can see anyway ).   
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: robark on August 09, 2020, 11:12:30 AM
I forget if I've previously mentioned that the speed sign recognition system hasn't fixed the problem of wrongly detecting signs on branching roads such as those passed when going round a roundabout. I would have thought it could exclude such signs by either figuring out that the vehicle didn't pass between them or by taking account of the direction that the front wheels are pointing. There are times when using the speed limiter based on the signs would be useful but not when there's going to be a conflict between driver and vehicle over the correct speed. A vehicle wanting to travel at 20mph on a 40mph road is going to be annoying.

I am disappointed to hear that the misreading of speed limits, by wrongly reading those on a side road, has not yet been fixed by Honda. It is one of the reasons why I kept my 3rd generation Jazz for less than 2years. A feature that is supposed to be safety measure can is a hazard when you are back ended in a 30 mph zone because your car has just read a 20 mph limit on a side road!
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: equaliser on August 09, 2020, 11:50:46 AM
I forget if I've previously mentioned that the speed sign recognition system hasn't fixed the problem of wrongly detecting signs on branching roads such as those passed when going round a roundabout. I would have thought it could exclude such signs by either figuring out that the vehicle didn't pass between them or by taking account of the direction that the front wheels are pointing. There are times when using the speed limiter based on the signs would be useful but not when there's going to be a conflict between driver and vehicle over the correct speed. A vehicle wanting to travel at 20mph on a 40mph road is going to be annoying.

I am disappointed to hear that the misreading of speed limits, by wrongly reading those on a side road, has not yet been fixed by Honda. It is one of the reasons why I kept my 3rd generation Jazz for less than 2years. A feature that is supposed to be safety measure can is a hazard when you are back ended in a 30 mph zone because your car has just read a 20 mph limit on a side road!

None of the manufacturers have a reliable traffic recognition system, it's not just Honda who like the rest of the manufacturers buy the system from a third party. An immature technology limitation I'm afraid. :(
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: ColinS on August 09, 2020, 11:51:22 AM
A feature that is supposed to be safety measure can is a hazard when you are back ended in a 30 mph zone because your car has just read a 20 mph limit on a side road!

Admittedly it has its shortcomings but is is hardly a hazard.  It doesn't apply the brakes for you, it merely beeps to warn you that it thinks you are over the limit and it stops you accelerating so it will gradually reduce to the speed it detects unless you take action.  I'm sure you have many times approached a car going slower that you without back ending it.

The most annoying feature is that it fails to read signs in harsh sunlight.

As I have said many times before, this and other "safety" features are "aids" and you are not mandated to use them.  You are in control of the car and it is up to you to drive safely and within the law, as any magistrate will be quick to tell you.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: culzean on August 09, 2020, 11:52:23 AM
I forget if I've previously mentioned that the speed sign recognition system hasn't fixed the problem of wrongly detecting signs on branching roads such as those passed when going round a roundabout. I would have thought it could exclude such signs by either figuring out that the vehicle didn't pass between them or by taking account of the direction that the front wheels are pointing. There are times when using the speed limiter based on the signs would be useful but not when there's going to be a conflict between driver and vehicle over the correct speed. A vehicle wanting to travel at 20mph on a 40mph road is going to be annoying.

I am disappointed to hear that the misreading of speed limits, by wrongly reading those on a side road, has not yet been fixed by Honda. It is one of the reasons why I kept my 3rd generation Jazz for less than 2years. A feature that is supposed to be safety measure can is a hazard when you are back ended in a 30 mph zone because your car has just read a 20 mph limit on a side road!

I have seen tales of the cameras ( not just Honda ) seeing ESSO signs and slowing down, ( taking them for 50 limit ) - cameras cannot interpret what they see as well as humans and if a roadsign is picked up by camera it just accepts it,  size could be a thing but around our way speed limit signs don't seem to be a fixed size and small ones turn up in some areas - some are round,  some are round on a square background etc.... as humans we just accept it without a second thought and even if they were on their side or upside down we would still easily understand it...
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: ColinS on August 09, 2020, 11:57:27 AM
I have seen tales of the cameras ( not just Honda ) seeing ESSO signs and slowing down, ( taking them for 50 limit ) - cameras cannot interpret what they see as well as humans and if a roadsign is picked up by camera it just accepts it,  size could be a thing but around our way speed limit signs don't seem to be a fixed size and small ones turn up in some areas - some are round,  some are round on a square background etc.... as humans we just accept it without a second thought and even if they were on their side or upside down we would still easily understand it...

And if you manage to write software to cater for every eventuality, you likely won't be driving a Jazz anymore, not many billionaires do :)
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: ColinB on August 09, 2020, 12:31:51 PM
It doesn't apply the brakes for you, it merely beeps to warn you that it thinks you are over the limit and it stops you accelerating so it will gradually reduce to the speed it detects unless you take action.

Not applying the brakes is the problem. If you're doing 60, and the car sees a sign on a parallel road reading 30, the system doesn't just stop you accelerating, it closes the throttle to actively slow you down: the deceleration can be quite sudden and unexpected, and the driver behind you doesn't see brake lights to warn him. Whilst we're all good drivers (everyone is, of course, above average!) there are people out there who aren't and a single clown tailgating you at the wrong time is all it takes.

Whilst I'm happy to accept the dashboard indication of the speed limit as a useful aid that's probably around 80% accurate, I regard the linking of that to the speed limiter as dangerous. Luckily you can choose not to use that facility.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: culzean on August 09, 2020, 01:23:21 PM
It doesn't apply the brakes for you, it merely beeps to warn you that it thinks you are over the limit and it stops you accelerating so it will gradually reduce to the speed it detects unless you take action.

Not applying the brakes is the problem. If you're doing 60, and the car sees a sign on a parallel road reading 30, the system doesn't just stop you accelerating, it closes the throttle to actively slow you down: the deceleration can be quite sudden and unexpected, and the driver behind you doesn't see brake lights to warn him. Whilst we're all good drivers (everyone is, of course, above average!) there are people out there who aren't and a single clown tailgating you at the wrong time is all it takes.

Whilst I'm happy to accept the dashboard indication of the speed limit as a useful aid that's probably around 80% accurate, I regard the linking of that to the speed limiter as dangerous. Luckily you can choose not to use that facility.

My stand-alone Garmin satnav beeps at me when I am approaching a lower speed limit, and it beeps before the speed signs are visible a lot of the time,  it just uses GPS and is surprisingly accurate... you have to update your maps regularly though.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: Downsizer on August 09, 2020, 01:57:45 PM
A GPS system will also spot the speed limits hidden behind summer foliage - there are quite a lot of those around the Suffolk by-roads.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: culzean on August 09, 2020, 02:21:56 PM
A GPS system will also spot the speed limits hidden behind summer foliage - there are quite a lot of those around the Suffolk by-roads.

Quite a few road signs by use are covered with foliage and if they aren't they are covered with moss or other stuff,  pretty unreadable for us humans... 'council cuts' means they don't have a van going around keeping them clean any more ( they always cut the things people notice - except they don't cut the bushes hiding the signs LOL ) say no more.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: madasafish on August 09, 2020, 03:23:03 PM
It doesn't apply the brakes for you, it merely beeps to warn you that it thinks you are over the limit and it stops you accelerating so it will gradually reduce to the speed it detects unless you take action.

Not applying the brakes is the problem. If you're doing 60, and the car sees a sign on a parallel road reading 30, the system doesn't just stop you accelerating, it closes the throttle to actively slow you down: the deceleration can be quite sudden and unexpected, and the driver behind you doesn't see brake lights to warn him. Whilst we're all good drivers (everyone is, of course, above average!) there are people out there who aren't and a single clown tailgating you at the wrong time is all it takes.

Whilst I'm happy to accept the dashboard indication of the speed limit as a useful aid that's probably around 80% accurate, I regard the linking of that to the speed limiter as dangerous. Luckily you can choose not to use that facility.

Thanks for that warning..

I will treat any driver of a new Jazz as a numpty then...


(No change from the driver of any new car especially OAPs who think they should be wrapped ion cotton wool and driven VERY slowly..to run them in as you would do to a 1950s car I suppose... 8) 8)  )
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: John Ratsey on August 09, 2020, 06:40:26 PM
A GPS system will also spot the speed limits hidden behind summer foliage - there are quite a lot of those around the Suffolk by-roads.
The sign recognition on the Mk 4 Jazz seems to do a better job of recognising degraded signs than the previous generation. The last speed sign number on the dashboard also blinks if the vehicle speed is more than about 1mph in excess of that number which is also a useful reminder.

The handbook says this about the intelligent speed limiter "Automatically sets the speed limit that the traffic sign recognition system detects. And the speed limit cannot be exceeded even if you are depressing the accelerator
pedal. If you fully depress the accelerator the speed limit can be exceeded." I haven't tried the system to find out how quickly the vehicle slows down but would note that taking foot off accelerator in when in D results in the vehicle slowing down more rapidly than on my previous CVT Hondas (if in B then deceleration is faster).

A bit of joined-up thinking could have linked the speed sign recognition to the sat-nav system if it contained a speed limit database. Although there's the risk of the vehicle getting confused when the two data sources disagreed, the database could be used to provide a speed limit in those situations where the car hasn't read a sign recently and just shows blank. This would be particularly useful in knowing if in a 30mph or 40mph (or even 50mph) speed zone. All have street lights but if there aren't repeater signs then the default has to be assumed to be the lowest speed (I wonder what the intelligent speed limiter does when the car hasn't recently read a speed sign?).
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: equaliser on August 09, 2020, 07:42:14 PM
The sign recognition on the Mk 4 Jazz seems to do a better job of recognising degraded signs than the previous generation. The last speed sign number on the dashboard also blinks if the vehicle speed is more than about 1mph in excess of that number which is also a useful reminder.

I'm glad to hear that John, the hardware and software algorithms should get better with each generation. They might get better faster now that manufacturers have a direct link to the control units via the built-in e-sim but thinking about it, they'll probably not bother to update them!
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: ColinB on August 10, 2020, 09:05:58 AM
I haven't tried the system to find out how quickly the vehicle slows down but would note that taking foot off accelerator in when in D results in the vehicle slowing down more rapidly than on my previous CVT Hondas (if in B then deceleration is faster).

I'd guess that the more rapid deceleration of the Mk4 is because the car starts regenerating when you lift off. If so, maybe the Mk4 is more helpful to the following driver than the Mk3 because a previous Q&A in this thread stated that the car does light up the brake lights when regenerating. So at least they will get a warning.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: John Ratsey on August 13, 2020, 02:11:06 PM
I needed to shunt the car on the driveway today. The engine immediately started and was running at medium revs. I noticed the battery gauge increasing so I waited to see what happened. Once the battery was at 60% the engine stopped. It appears that, at least at this time of year, that the engine behaviour on starting depends on the battery status but making the engine run under load is much more efficient and hould promote faster warming up than letting it idle under no load.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: Austriaman on August 15, 2020, 10:34:09 PM
Greatly impressed with how smooth and seamless this car drives. Have done 300 miles in mine now. Battery went to 100% after a long, steep run downhill in the Cotswolds, then we ran on battery for several miles. Ride over lumpy surfaces very smooth, better and less crashy than my previous CRV. Just need my dealer to establish why no traffic updates on the satnav, then we'll be sorted.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: John Ratsey on August 16, 2020, 04:16:51 PM
Just need my dealer to establish why no traffic updates on the satnav, then we'll be sorted.
If you haven't seen it then the 100 page manual on the navigation system is available at https://www.honda.co.uk/cars/owners/manuals-and-guides/honda-owners-manuals.html . The traffic updates need a subscription to a provider. That could be through the vehicle's eSIM if a data plan has been enabled but another option may be via a smartphone if data sharing has been enabled. However, it's something I won't be trying to fix. I find the Garmin navigation instructions to be exasperating as it give a name for a road if it can find one instread of using the road number (as shown on the signs) and nowhere in the 100 pages of manual can I find an option to change this. If I want to get anywhere unfamiliar then I'll be putting my Tomtom satnav on top of the dashboard (Tomtom also has much more frequent mapping updates).
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: John A on August 16, 2020, 08:30:02 PM
However, it's something I won't be trying to fix. I find the Garmin navigation instructions to be exasperating as it give a name for a road if it can find one instread of using the road number (as shown on the signs) and nowhere in the 100 pages of manual can I find an option to change this.

That's typical Garmin Sat Nav behaviour, and I think it's because that's what they tend to do in the USA. In town just about every road has a name, outside may not, in which it will, hopefully, say the roads number like the Garmin standalone Sat Navs that have TTS.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: Jocko on August 16, 2020, 11:00:06 PM
I get a great laugh at the Garmin pronunciation. Cheers up a dull journey.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: Austriaman on August 27, 2020, 11:07:46 AM
Satnav Traffic info not available in the UK at present, confirmed by Honda via my dealer. Bit of a disappointment as my previous Hondas have all had traffic data with their satnav's. However, the Android Auto works very well, so its back to Google Maps etc.!
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: John Ratsey on August 27, 2020, 08:59:16 PM
Today I passed 500 miles since refilling the fuel tank. The car claimed an average of 75mpg. There are still 2 bars (out of 10) remaining on the fuel gauge but I'll need to refill next week ready for a longer trip. I'll then have a clearer idea of the optimism built in to the car's mpg calculation.

Something I noticed today is that the auto-wiper seems to have a limited range. There was fairly heavy rain and I needed to switch the wipers to continuous since the auto-wiper was intermittent even at its maximum setting. Maybe I'm dreaming but I thought the wipers on my previous Hondas could be left on auto and would automatically work through the entire speed range to suit the rain conditions.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: BigRon on August 27, 2020, 09:18:15 PM
John you are correct it should go through the settings.

From memory last week when I collected my Crosstar and its was raining cats & dogs my wipers went through the range.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: Mellorshark on August 28, 2020, 08:42:39 AM
The wipers on my MK3 tended to be over sensitive to rain, whereas on the MK4 they appear less sensitive. Similar to John's experience.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: John A on August 28, 2020, 08:57:23 AM
On my Mk 3 the intermittent range seems to have a big effect on the sensitivity. Once I've found it's sweet spot, for me, I try not to mess with it!
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: iainsd on August 30, 2020, 05:51:18 PM
Hi, looking to upgrade to the crosstar from my Jazz EX 2018. What price do you recon i should be haggling to for one at the moment. Thanks
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: John Ratsey on August 30, 2020, 06:56:17 PM
Hi, looking to upgrade to the crosstar from my Jazz EX 2018. What price do you recon i should be haggling to for one at the moment. Thanks
Getting a better discount can depend on several factors such as the dealer wanting to reach a monthly sales target (in which case negotiating near a month end might prompt a better price) and whether what you want to buy is something (eg colour) that Honda / dealer want to shift. If you want a specific colour which isn't in stock then a discount is less likely than accepting something which is available. For example, I was told by the female part of the household to get red (I personally wanted the more distinctive blue) but I didn't want to pay the extra for the two tone red. However, when the dealer found that the two-tone red was in stock but the non-two tone wasn't then the dealer offered to swallow the extra cost in order to close the deal. I also didn't specifically demand a discount but wanted to see the bottom line after trade in and adding some accessories / extras (5 year service plan, mats, door visors, touch-up paint and the boot sill protector). I work on the principle that the dealer probably has more wriggle-room on the pricing of the extras than on the basic vehicle price and also that a nice discount on the purchase can be offset by a less attractive trade-in offer. Also, if you wait until the rush for the 70 plate is out of the way then the dealer may be looking for business. However, this may be offset by trade-in prices dropping as shifting used vehicles (as well as new ones) becomes more difficult as winter approaches.

You might also want to look at the ex-demonstrators. This one https://usedcars.honda.co.uk/en/used-cars/approved-cars/honda/jazz-crosstartwotone/15-i-mmd-107ps-crosstar-ex-vdcdc8b is very competitively priced (£21,4999) given that the next one is £22,500 and most of the ex-demo Crosstars are over £23k. Carwow says that the average saving on a Jazz is about £900 https://www.carwow.co.uk/?make=Honda#make-model-menu . However, the Crosstar has been selling better than anticipated so less likely to be significantly discounted than whatever version(s) of the Mk 4 aren't selling as well as expected.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: BigRon on September 02, 2020, 03:46:16 PM
Hi, looking to upgrade to the crosstar from my Jazz EX 2018. What price do you recon i should be haggling to for one at the moment. Thanks

I purchased a Crosstar in Crystal Black list price  £22,635 and paid £22,400 but as part of the deal the following were included:-
Elegance Mats
DiamondBrite Paint Protection
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Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: John Ratsey on September 03, 2020, 03:26:50 PM
I've refuelled the Crosstar as there were two bars on the fuel gauge and a trip planned for next week. I managed to squeeze in 32.9 litres so, with 515 miles since the previous refill that's 71.2 mpg. In contrast, the car claimed 75.1 mpg since the last refill indicating that the fibometer is just over 5% optimistic. The car also reported 94 miles remaining just before it was refilled which is about right but, I suspect, 600 miles since a previous refill will cause both car and driver to feel anxious and not something I would plan to test if the 600 miles includes any motorway speeds as the mpg starts to drop at over 60 mph.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: Jocko on September 03, 2020, 07:13:21 PM
Superb mpg for what is a bit bigger than the Jazz. I hand you my crown.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: John Ratsey on September 11, 2020, 09:48:12 PM
More miles and another filling of the tank - see https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=12364.msg86755#msg86755 .

Some points I have noticed:

- Sustaining 70mpg requires keeping the speed below about 55mph (or less if there's a head wind). The Crosstar isn't particularly aerodynamic with the roof rails, the extra ground clearance and the more angular nose all increasing drag. The normal Mk. 4 Jazz will be better at higher speeds (see the WLTP test cycle data).
- I noticed yesterday morning that the engine was running a few minutes into a journey with the battery on 70%, at which point the car would normally be running on battery. The outside temperate was 13C. I turned off the heater fan and the engine turned off a few seconds later. This is strong evidence that the engine is the source of cabin heating (ie no running the electrically-powered aircon in reverse as a heat pump) which is likely to result in an increase in the engine operation in cold weather.
- The car feels as if the engine needs about 10 minutes to warm up and run comfortably. Driving straight out onto a fast road with a cold engine hits the mpg. I've noticed this with my previous Hondas but suggests that there aren't special measures to help the engine get up to optimum temperature quickly.
- I've found there is a small footrest to the right of the accelerator pedal which provides somewhere to park the right foot when the hand brake is on.
- Overall, the hybrid system makes the vehicle feel much more sporty in terms of having instant acceleration than its looks (or the press reviews) suggest. The instant power gives me the confidence to get into a gap in traffic without inconveniencing the other vehicles.
- The engine noise is barely noticeable except during heavy acceleration or climbing a substantial hill at speed.

That's all I can remember at the moment.
Title: Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
Post by: Muldoon on September 11, 2020, 10:21:29 PM
Thanks it’s good to hear real world experiences.