Author Topic: Honda to stop selling diesels  (Read 6026 times)

John Ratsey

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Re: Honda to stop selling diesels
« Reply #30 on: October 29, 2020, 04:46:18 PM »
The speed limit is just that. A limit.
Unfortunately, some drivers behave as if it's the minimum allowable speed.

When I checked my Crosstar's speedo against the sat-nav I recall the speedo being only 1 mph higher. It's as if the speed is measured accurately and then one is added as a margin. Being a digital speedo it's easy to do that rather than apply a proportional increase.

Perhaps the most troublesome roads are rural ones where the nominal speed limit is 60 mph and, while the car might get round the bends OK my front seat passenger complains of feeling queasy. I therefore tend to be below the limit which also provides a comfort margin against meeting the unexpected. On such roads I'm happier following a safe distance behind a carefully driven lorry although I sometimes end up with the radiator of another lorry blocking the view in my rear view mirror. It's not just car drivers who ignore speed limits.
2022 HR-V Elegance, previously 2020 Jazz Crosstar

E27006

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Re: Honda to stop selling diesels
« Reply #31 on: June 02, 2021, 04:00:24 AM »
Honda are to cease to manufacture diesel engines,  Honda also one of the first to abandon the 2-stroke engine, while Kawasaki, Suzuki, Yamaha were principally 2-stroke engine manufacturers, Honda were unique in being 100% 4-stroke in their range of road - legal  motorcycles

culzean

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Re: Honda to stop selling diesels
« Reply #32 on: June 02, 2021, 12:58:59 PM »
Honda are to cease to manufacture diesel engines,  Honda also one of the first to abandon the 2-stroke engine, while Kawasaki, Suzuki, Yamaha were principally 2-stroke engine manufacturers, Honda were unique in being 100% 4-stroke in their range of road - legal  motorcycles

Honda were very slow to start making Diesel engines as well, they reluctantly made them in the end because they were missing out on the company car market. But they knew a long time ago that as far as emissions were concerned they were 'a dead end technology' and makers were chasing their tails with ever more expensive, complicated, unreliable and less effective plasters for emissions - something the Germans tried to hide from the buyer and governments for decades because they were so heavily invested in Diesels.  Governments were blind by concentrating on CO2 and ignoring all the nasty stuff that diesels pump out,  there are scientists that have said that it may well be the particulates from diesels that are darkening the ice caps and absorbing sunlight causing melting and not CO2.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2021, 01:06:54 PM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

E27006

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Re: Honda to stop selling diesels
« Reply #33 on: June 02, 2021, 04:22:14 PM »
Honda are to cease to manufacture diesel engines,  Honda also one of the first to abandon the 2-stroke engine, while Kawasaki, Suzuki, Yamaha were principally 2-stroke engine manufacturers, Honda were unique in being 100% 4-stroke in their range of road - legal  motorcycles

Honda were very slow to start making Diesel engines as well, they reluctantly made them in the end because they were missing out on the company car market. But they knew a long time ago that as far as emissions were concerned they were 'a dead end technology' and makers were chasing their tails with ever more expensive, complicated, unreliable and less effective plasters for emissions - something the Germans tried to hide from the buyer and governments for decades because they were so heavily invested in Diesels.  Governments were blind by concentrating on CO2 and ignoring all the nasty stuff that diesels pump out,  there are scientists that have said that it may well be the particulates from diesels that are darkening the ice caps and absorbing sunlight causing melting and not CO2.
The EU commission truly lost the plot,  of the emissions produced by a car, diesel or petrol,  the only exhaust gas constituent not subject to defined not-to-be-exceed  limits is the CO2 content, all other constituents, Nox, PMs etc they had defined do not exceed number, ie Nox 180 unit/km , or 80 units/km,  for CO2,  you could throw out as much as you wish provided the car maker accepted the one off penalty charge and the buyer paid the VED rate.
My thoughts on why the EU was so diesel crazy until the veil was lifted:
1)Make  the EU car  market uniquely diesel-centric, to   ringfence  the   German / French brands from competition on price with Japanese / Asian petrol-centric brands.
2)Hybrid cars are expensive, the low-profit low-productivity Eu car makers could not afford to manufacture hybrid cars, the additional cost of a  hybrid battery  greater than the profit margins on a typical EU manufactured  car.  In the early days of hybrids , you needed the well-filled war chest of Toyota and Honda to purchase  a ticket for  the hybrid  theatre

E27006

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Re: Honda to stop selling diesels
« Reply #34 on: June 02, 2021, 07:53:09 PM »
I'll be sorry to see diesels go, although I fully understand and accept the reasoning behind it, I prefer the way they drive, always plenty power as you pull out of a bend at low revs, always good mpg.
I've owned 6 petrol cars and 4 diesels, got one of each at the moment, I'm all for making electric and hybrid cars another viable alternative for those that they suit, that can only be a good thing, but they're not ideal for everyone or every journey.
Petrol cars can drive with power and torque as per a diesel, we need to abandon the high speed / high rpm engine strategy  for low rpm / high torque petrol engines, why do we have  120 mph  cars  and  6500 rpm redlines when the limit is  a mere 70 mph   

E27006

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Re: Honda to stop selling diesels
« Reply #35 on: June 13, 2021, 08:16:06 PM »
Perhaps it's time to bring back the 1974 speed limits http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/december/15/newsid_2559000/2559807.stm in order to reduce emissions.

To be honest, I think there is a lot of sense in this. The difference in emissions produced at 60mph v 80mph is massive. This where modern diesels are too good. My Jazz at 60 is a relatively relaxing place to be, but at 80, its a frantic buzz box. A long legged diesel with 6 gears however, will sit at 80 all day long without feeling remotely busy or stressed. Bring in a lower speed limit, and emissions will fall. A lot more patrol cars to enforce would be very welcome.
It was found that  some car manufacturers installed software  defeat devices which  switched  off diesel exhaust emissions suppression  at speeds greater than 75 mph, the cars then produced very high levels of diesel exhaust  pollution.  The car makers did not miss any trick they thought they could get away with

embee

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Re: Honda to stop selling diesels
« Reply #36 on: July 05, 2021, 10:33:17 AM »

The EU commission truly lost the plot,  of the emissions produced by a car, diesel or petrol,  the only exhaust gas constituent not subject to defined not-to-be-exceed  limits is the CO2 content, all other constituents, Nox, PMs etc they had defined do not exceed number, ie Nox 180 unit/km , or 80 units/km,  for CO2,  you could throw out as much as you wish provided the car maker accepted the one off penalty charge and the buyer paid the VED rate.


CO2 is simply fuel consumed by another name. the "regulated" pollutants are the toxic ones, and a manageable unfortunate by-product of the vagaries of combustion of HC fuels in air (N2 and O2). By manageable I mean they can be modified to a greater or lesser extent by engineering the combustion system, pressures and temperatures, and after-treatments etc.
CO2 and H2O are just a consequence of burning HC fuel, the more you burn the more CO2 it produces, unavoidably in principle.
Fuel consumption is principally a function of vehicle mass and size (area, drag). At one time there was a table of "ton.miles/gallon" for many production cars, today's equivalent comes out at somewhere round the 50 tonne.miles/gallon (imp) mark, in other words a 1000kg car will do around 50mpg (imp) typically over a mixed drive cycle, maybe a little better.
Physics and thermodynamics say that with a "normal" ICE burning liquid HC you can't do vastly better than this. The principal way to lower the CO2 values is to make cars smaller and lighter with lower performance levels (operating the engine at nearer optimum efficiency regions). That isn't the trend for a lot of cars, they get bigger (ergonomics for modern people), heavier (more gizmos and better crash performance), and higher performance (desirability/sales&marketing).

The USA/California have had CO2/gas guzzler taxes and penalties for decades, which were paid by the manufacturer. If you impose a CO2 limit you essentially limit the size/weight of an ICE vehicle, which is a fundamental step change in regulatory principle. Some markets in effect have such rules for certain segments (Japan and kei-cars).
EV/hybrid sort of by-passes that issue by putting the CO2 somewhere else (power stations).

guest4871

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Re: Honda to stop selling diesels
« Reply #37 on: July 05, 2021, 11:42:27 AM »

The EU commission truly lost the plot,  of the emissions produced by a car, diesel or petrol,  the only exhaust gas constituent not subject to defined not-to-be-exceed  limits is the CO2 content, all other constituents, Nox, PMs etc they had defined do not exceed number, ie Nox 180 unit/km , or 80 units/km,  for CO2,  you could throw out as much as you wish provided the car maker accepted the one off penalty charge and the buyer paid the VED rate.


CO2 is simply fuel consumed by another name. the "regulated" pollutants are the toxic ones, and a manageable unfortunate by-product of the vagaries of combustion of HC fuels in air (N2 and O2). By manageable I mean they can be modified to a greater or lesser extent by engineering the combustion system, pressures and temperatures, and after-treatments etc.
CO2 and H2O are just a consequence of burning HC fuel, the more you burn the more CO2 it produces, unavoidably in principle.
Fuel consumption is principally a function of vehicle mass and size (area, drag). At one time there was a table of "ton.miles/gallon" for many production cars, today's equivalent comes out at somewhere round the 50 tonne.miles/gallon (imp) mark, in other words a 1000kg car will do around 50mpg (imp) typically over a mixed drive cycle, maybe a little better.
Physics and thermodynamics say that with a "normal" ICE burning liquid HC you can't do vastly better than this. The principal way to lower the CO2 values is to make cars smaller and lighter with lower performance levels (operating the engine at nearer optimum efficiency regions). That isn't the trend for a lot of cars, they get bigger (ergonomics for modern people), heavier (more gizmos and better crash performance), and higher performance (desirability/sales&marketing).

The USA/California have had CO2/gas guzzler taxes and penalties for decades, which were paid by the manufacturer. If you impose a CO2 limit you essentially limit the size/weight of an ICE vehicle, which is a fundamental step change in regulatory principle. Some markets in effect have such rules for certain segments (Japan and kei-cars).
EV/hybrid sort of by-passes that issue by putting the CO2 somewhere else (power stations).

Excellent posts.

Many thanks.

JamtartJazzman

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Re: Honda to stop selling diesels
« Reply #38 on: July 05, 2021, 04:25:39 PM »
Honda are to cease to manufacture diesel engines,  Honda also one of the first to abandon the 2-stroke engine, while Kawasaki, Suzuki, Yamaha were principally 2-stroke engine manufacturers, Honda were unique in being 100% 4-stroke in their range of road - legal  motorcycles

Honda were very slow to start making Diesel engines as well, they reluctantly made them in the end because they were missing out on the company car market. But they knew a long time ago that as far as emissions were concerned they were 'a dead end technology' and makers were chasing their tails with ever more expensive, complicated, unreliable and less effective plasters for emissions - something the Germans tried to hide from the buyer and governments for decades because they were so heavily invested in Diesels.  Governments were blind by concentrating on CO2 and ignoring all the nasty stuff that diesels pump out,  there are scientists that have said that it may well be the particulates from diesels that are darkening the ice caps and absorbing sunlight causing melting and not CO2.

I believe that the reason for Honda's reluctant adoption of diesel was very persobnal.  Soichiro hated them and two strokes too. Honda didn't adopt them until Soichiro died and were so late in the game, they had to get their first diesel car engine from Isuzu.  Bunging that engine into a Civic body made for a bugger of a turning circle!

In the long run, it seems that Soichiro san's faith in 4 strokes has been justified.  They'll be around for a while yet in hybrids and maybe as users of synthetic fuels.

E27006

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Re: Honda to stop selling diesels
« Reply #39 on: July 06, 2021, 06:57:37 PM »
Perhaps it's time to bring back the 1974 speed limits http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/december/15/newsid_2559000/2559807.stm in order to reduce emissions.

To be honest, I think there is a lot of sense in this. The difference in emissions produced at 60mph v 80mph is massive. This where modern diesels are too good. My Jazz at 60 is a relatively relaxing place to be, but at 80, its a frantic buzz box. A long legged diesel with 6 gears however, will sit at 80 all day long without feeling remotely busy or stressed. Bring in a lower speed limit, and emissions will fall. A lot more patrol cars to enforce would be very welcome.
Emissions and fuel consumption  at 60 mph vs 80 mph,  you cannot beat the laws of physics,  double the speed and the power needs go up by a factor of four,  emissions,  at least one manufacturer set their diesel cars to switch off emissions control at a speed of geather than 75 mph,  the toxic emissions from the tailpipe  would then skyrocket to many times  the Eu regulated limits. The european car makers are without morals and cannot be trusted

E27006

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Re: Honda to stop selling diesels
« Reply #40 on: September 07, 2021, 08:14:46 AM »
Honda are to cease to manufacture diesel engines,  Honda also one of the first to abandon the 2-stroke engine, while Kawasaki, Suzuki, Yamaha were principally 2-stroke engine manufacturers, Honda were unique in being 100% 4-stroke in their range of road - legal  motorcycles

Honda were very slow to start making Diesel engines as well, they reluctantly made them in the end because they were missing out on the company car market. But they knew a long time ago that as far as emissions were concerned they were 'a dead end technology' and makers were chasing their tails with ever more expensive, complicated, unreliable and less effective plasters for emissions - something the Germans tried to hide from the buyer and governments for decades because they were so heavily invested in Diesels.  Governments were blind by concentrating on CO2 and ignoring all the nasty stuff that diesels pump out,  there are scientists that have said that it may well be the particulates from diesels that are darkening the ice caps and absorbing sunlight causing melting and not CO2.

I believe that the reason for Honda's reluctant adoption of diesel was very persobnal.  Soichiro hated them and two strokes too. Honda didn't adopt them until Soichiro died and were so late in the game, they had to get their first diesel car engine from Isuzu.  Bunging that engine into a Civic body made for a bugger of a turning circle!

In the long run, it seems that Soichiro san's faith in 4 strokes has been justified.  They'll be around for a while yet in hybrids and maybe as users of synthetic fuels.

The air-cooled vs liquid-cooled engine was another Sochiro tenet,  he insisted on air-cooling for his cars, it is written that the engineers developed liquid-cooled engines in secret.  Liquid cooling has many advantages, a ready source of heat for the passenger cabin,  stable  engine operating conditions ,  muting of mechanical noise by the engine,  it is hard to understand the stance against liquid-cooled by Sochiro.

E27006

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Re: Honda to stop selling diesels
« Reply #41 on: September 07, 2021, 08:41:58 AM »
I have owned three diesels, all Peugeots, when diesel was considerably cheaper than petrol and I was doing seventy mile round trips a day to get to/from work. The first was in 1985 when diesel cars were comparatively rare and it was quite usual to pull in for fuel and have the cashier shout to you that you putting diesel in.
The government soon realised that they were missing out on fuel tax and soon made the diesel an uneconomic proposition unless you were doing very high mileages.
It can't be long before they miss the fuel tax on electric vehicles and put road tax on them. The government will be looking for ways to recover the cost of Covid 19 soon and three obvious targets are road tax, fuel tax and insurance tax all of which affect the road user and put the price of everything up.

Vic.
i used to drive a Ford Connect 1.5 diesel,  the fuel consumption was about the same mid-50s as my Dsi Jazz, (measured by odometer and fuel dispensed by the pump) I drove the Ford at the same speeds as I would my Jazz,  the difference in weight and size is considerable, the Connect weighed 2300 kg, double the weight of  the Jazz. It is hard to explain  such wildly different vehicles driven in the same style could return similar fuel consumption.  It is a fact the Ford did not meet emissions standards in real world driving, official tests on the Focus with the same engine showed Nox to be 5 times the Eu6 limit, if the Ford was tuned to meet Eu6 limits in real world driving I suspect mpg would fall significantly

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