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Honda Jazz Forums => Honda Jazz Mk4 2020 - => Topic started by: Karoq on May 16, 2022, 11:41:53 AM

Title: This may interest Jazz Hybrid owners, purely for comparison
Post by: Karoq on May 16, 2022, 11:41:53 AM
Note my comments.
https://www.hrvforums.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1826&p=9451#p9451
Title: Re: This may interest Jazz Hybrid owners, purely for comparison
Post by: Jazzik on May 16, 2022, 06:21:45 PM
Purely for comparison... It could be a very interesting comparison if the Jazz had driven the same route under exactly the same conditions. But alas... not. "Ecodriver" has not (yet?) done the same test with the Jazz.

And look.... this is how you really compare consumption. Here between a hybrid and a diesel:


and here between a non-hybrid and a hybrid:



Unfortunately the language is Dutch, but it's just about the idea: you drive with two cars behind each other, exactly the same roads under (obviously) the same conditions and you have a good and fair comparison.
Title: Re: This may interest Jazz Hybrid owners, purely for comparison
Post by: guest9814 on May 16, 2022, 06:40:57 PM
In B mode on downhills we have aggressive ICE engine braking, when this braking insufficient we using friction brake’s , without B mode ICE engine braking also used when battery full but on lower rpm’s.
When I use B mode in town I use it only to control regen power without touching brakes , coast is possible but without hybrid power meter in MK4 hard to catch accelerator position to stop regen and acceleration.
I seen video on YouTube from Nisan  Leaf owner, he to get real coasting with released accelerator pedal used aftermarket module that connected between electronic accelerator pedal and ECU. This module changes acceleration characteristics and also cancelling deceleration (regen) with released acceleration pedal.
Title: Re: This may interest Jazz Hybrid owners, purely for comparison
Post by: Kenneve on May 16, 2022, 07:09:25 PM
In B mode on downhills we have aggressive ICE engine braking, when this braking insufficient we using friction brake’s , without B mode ICE engine braking also used when battery full but on lower rpm’s.

I believe that should read, In 'B' mode on downhills we have aggressive regenerative EV braking, except when the battery is full.

ICE braking is the same in 'B' or 'D' mode, in fact the same as any other ICE car, when you take your foot off the gas, but only equivalent to a normal manual car in maybe 5th or 6th gear, ie not much!!
Title: Re: This may interest Jazz Hybrid owners, purely for comparison
Post by: John Ratsey on May 16, 2022, 09:49:18 PM
I believe that pushing the brake pedal primarily triggers regenerative braking (subject to there being battery capacity and power generation is within the capability of the driveside motor-generator) and the mechanical brakes are only used to bring the vehicle to a complete halt. The advantage of B mode (which I use all the time) is that it's possible to control the vehicle speed under most conditions by varying the pressure on the accelerator pedal irrespective of whether the car is using engine, battery or both (and this often changes when there is a change in accelerator pressure).

Engine braking, when it happens (long moderate to steep downhill resulting in full battery) results in audible engine noise equivalent to changing to a low gear. Those living in flatter areas may never experience this while those living in very undulating areas would welcome a bigger battery to avoid the energy wasted by engine braking.
Title: Re: This may interest Jazz Hybrid owners, purely for comparison
Post by: und3r on May 17, 2022, 05:39:26 AM

Quote
But alas... not. "Ecodriver" has not (yet?) done the same test with the Jazz.

"Ecodriver" made already test for Jazz on his german channel called "Ecofahrer" :)

Title: Re: This may interest Jazz Hybrid owners, purely for comparison
Post by: aphybrid on May 17, 2022, 06:03:29 AM
Purely for comparison... It could be a very interesting comparison if the Jazz had driven the same route under exactly the same conditions. But alas... not. "Ecodriver" has not (yet?) done the same test with the Jazz.

And look.... this is how you really compare consumption. Here between a hybrid and a diesel:


and here between a non-hybrid and a hybrid:



Unfortunately the language is Dutch, but it's just about the idea: you drive with two cars behind each other, exactly the same roads under (obviously) the same conditions and you have a good and fair comparison.

It might be a small effect but generally following vehicle tends to use more energy as (for safety etc) the driver has to adjust throttle more often.
Title: Re: This may interest Jazz Hybrid owners, purely for comparison
Post by: Jazzik on May 17, 2022, 09:05:40 AM
It might be a small effect but generally following vehicle tends to use more energy as (for safety etc) the driver has to adjust throttle more often.

That's why they switch position...
Title: Re: This may interest Jazz Hybrid owners, purely for comparison
Post by: Kenneve on May 17, 2022, 10:04:35 AM
I believe that pushing the brake pedal primarily triggers regenerative braking (subject to there being battery capacity and power generation is within the capability of the driveside motor-generator) and the mechanical brakes are only used to bring the vehicle to a complete halt. The advantage of B mode (which I use all the time) is that it's possible to control the vehicle speed under most conditions by varying the pressure on the accelerator pedal irrespective of whether the car is using engine, battery or both (and this often changes when there is a change in accelerator pressure).

Like you John, I use 'B' mode all the time, (except when I need ACC) and I think you will find that the brake pedal has nothing to do with triggering regeneration. If you watch the Power Flow Meter, you will see that regeneration is triggered the moment you take your foot off the gas pedal. I don't believe touching the brake pedal adds anything to the regeneration effect, if anything it must subtract from that effect, since energy is then being used up by the friction brakes.

I agree, it is possible to largely control the vehicle, in 'B' mode, using the gas pedal alone, with the brake pedal being used just for the final stop.
Title: Re: This may interest Jazz Hybrid owners, purely for comparison
Post by: Lord Voltermore on May 17, 2022, 12:02:14 PM
The hybrid vs diesel  test will always have slight difference due to different vehicles ,not just slipstream effect etc. .   Bottom line is the hybrid used about 12 %  fewer litres of a cleaner  fuel, on that test route. This  should be better for the environment. (But net yet good enough , plus hidden  environmental  costs mining for battery materials etc etc)

 But ,at the time of the test,  diesel still worked out cheaper  ,in purely financial terms.   It was cheaper, or a similar price, to petrol in most european countries. And  diesel may use less fuel at high motorway speeds.
   
Its currently more expensive than petrol in most european countries  , and that , combined with increasingly being 
 excluded from emission zones, is another nail in the diesel coffin.

  I was once a big fan of diesel cars.  But I doubt I will buy another.   I am now an electric fan  ( ;D)   but must remain hybrid until range is sufficient for my needs. 

I think  the uk  Government are going to make electric scooters  legal, so maybe one of those with a small trailer or paniers for shopping?   Or maybe something like my avatar photo ( which is  Lady Muck-Voltermore in Cambodia) 
Title: Re: This may interest Jazz Hybrid owners, purely for comparison
Post by: Karoq on May 17, 2022, 02:54:24 PM
I believe that pushing the brake pedal primarily triggers regenerative braking (subject to there being battery capacity and power generation is within the capability of the driveside motor-generator) and the mechanical brakes are only used to bring the vehicle to a complete halt. The advantage of B mode (which I use all the time) is that it's possible to control the vehicle speed under most conditions by varying the pressure on the accelerator pedal irrespective of whether the car is using engine, battery or both (and this often changes when there is a change in accelerator pressure).

Like you John, I use 'B' mode all the time, (except when I need ACC) and I think you will find that the brake pedal has nothing to do with triggering regeneration. If you watch the Power Flow Meter, you will see that regeneration is triggered the moment you take your foot off the gas pedal. I don't believe touching the brake pedal adds anything to the regeneration effect, if anything it must subtract from that effect, since energy is then being used up by the friction brakes.

I agree, it is possible to largely control the vehicle, in 'B' mode, using the gas pedal alone, with the brake pedal being used just for the final stop.
I agree.
 I use B all the time except when going down hill with insufficient speed and by so doing slows me down too much. In which case I resort to 1> just to get some regen without slowing down too much.
I use 4>>> all the time for slowing down for going round corners and invariably never touch the brakes while doing so.
I also agree re the brake pedal and the regen. I have noticed no increase in regen when braking.
Electric cars won't do much for the shareholders of brake pad manufacturers! ;D
Title: Re: This may interest Jazz Hybrid owners, purely for comparison
Post by: sportse on May 17, 2022, 03:31:45 PM
Electric cars won't do much for the shareholders of brake pad manufacturers! ;D

My previous Toyota Auris hybrid did 7 years/60k miles on the one set of brake pads! I saw that they had changed them with the discs after I traded it in.

Discs were likely only changed due to deterioration from lack of use rather than wear.

On the Auris they tended to rust, particularly the rears, from lack of use unless you took the time to brake hard every so often to clean them.
Title: Re: This may interest Jazz Hybrid owners, purely for comparison
Post by: aphybrid on May 17, 2022, 06:15:24 PM
It might be a small effect but generally following vehicle tends to use more energy as (for safety etc) the driver has to adjust throttle more often.

That's why they switch position...

Sorry didn't watch all through - boring to watch with Dutch commentary.
Title: Re: This may interest Jazz Hybrid owners, purely for comparison
Post by: Jazzik on May 17, 2022, 06:59:35 PM
Sorry didn't watch all through - boring to watch with Dutch commentary.

Switch on subtitles, go to settings, click on 'cc' (ondertiteling), click on 'automatisch vertalen' and choose 'Engels' and you have can read the subtitles in (Google Translate :() English...

Title: Re: This may interest Jazz Hybrid owners, purely for comparison
Post by: guest9814 on May 17, 2022, 07:24:16 PM
Regenerative braking by pushing braking pedal can give power up to 30 kw (maybe more but I seen some times number  close to 30kw)
Regenerative braking when we release acceleration pedal depends  by speed car get to and D or B mode of transaxle selected, in B mode regen with released accelerator pedal giving more energy but when we press braking pedal we getting much more energy.
If we using only what Honda gives to us in MK4 on instruments cluster we can’t see how much energy we get back when we release acceleration pedal vs pushing brake pedal, owners of HR-V e:HEV can use for that power meter, I used Car Scanner app for this. That why I can tell power in kW
Title: Re: This may interest Jazz Hybrid owners, purely for comparison
Post by: jamjar on May 17, 2022, 11:04:36 PM
Electric cars won't do much for the shareholders of brake pad manufacturers! ;D

My previous Toyota Auris hybrid did 7 years/60k miles on the one set of brake pads! I saw that they had changed them with the discs after I traded it in.

My previous Auris Hybrid  which at that time was 6 years old and had just over 65k miles was on the original brake pads/discs. My current Jazz just had it's first year service and reported front pads are at 80% and rear pads at 85%
Title: Re: This may interest Jazz Hybrid owners, purely for comparison
Post by: Kremmen on May 18, 2022, 04:18:39 AM
One statement in the latest Honda Engine Room hit the nail ......

With the way the hybrid works you are mainly in EV mode in towns where pollution needs to be reduced.

How very true, never thought of that before.
Title: Re: This may interest Jazz Hybrid owners, purely for comparison
Post by: John Ratsey on May 18, 2022, 08:32:05 AM
One statement in the latest Honda Engine Room hit the nail ......

With the way the hybrid works you are mainly in EV mode in towns where pollution needs to be reduced.
But only if the weather isn't cold and you want to use the cabin heating. This results in the engine running at light load (inefficient) and struggling to reach the optimum operating temperature. The problem can be mitigated by using the heated seats (no help to any rear seat passengers) but Honda hasn't explained that the heated seats are there to help the planet and not just a luxury.
Title: Re: This may interest Jazz Hybrid owners, purely for comparison
Post by: sportse on May 18, 2022, 11:46:24 AM
The heated seats are also linked to the climate control.

With them on, you get less heat from the car - likely programmed for emissions/mpg.

When you turn them off, the car starts up to give you more heat through the vents instead.
Title: Re: This may interest Jazz Hybrid owners, purely for comparison
Post by: Kremmen on May 18, 2022, 12:45:42 PM
Never used the heated seats. Had them before in other cars and by the time they'd warmed up my body had already done the job.

In the Jazz with fabric seats they don't get cold anyway.
Title: Re: This may interest Jazz Hybrid owners, purely for comparison
Post by: John Ratsey on May 19, 2022, 10:05:07 AM
Never used the heated seats. Had them before in other cars and by the time they'd warmed up my body had already done the job.

In the Jazz with fabric seats they don't get cold anyway.
My Crosstar has cloth seats but I've found that the heated seats help to provide a useful bit of warmth when I've got the main heating turned off because I want to get the engine warmed up or we are in traffic conditions where the engine would normally be off but is running to help provide heat.  The heated seats, however, don't help clear steamed-up windows!
Title: Re: This may interest Jazz Hybrid owners, purely for comparison
Post by: Lord Voltermore on May 19, 2022, 11:43:39 AM
I always scorned the very idea of heated seats and heated steering wheel. Something for wimps.   :P     But must admit I love them.  Those on my Jazz ex  heat up quickly  and are nice and snug  long before conventional engine heating makes any difference. .     And that was in  a relatively mild winter, when I was able to turn them down or off after only a couple of miles and maybe not need additional cabin heating.       I think they will be great in proper cold.

Crosstar owners may never know what they are missing without a  heated steering wheel.To be fair I could live without it , and some have reported their wheel doesnt heat up much.  Mine is just right.    I suppose if push comes to shove I might buy a car without heated seats, but would miss them.   
My wife has been a bit technophobic about learning how to work  the more fancy bells and whistles,  but soon mastered climate control and heating   ;D

I was also  sceptical about automatic rain sensor wipers, but  I'm coming round to the idea.   Jury is still out about lights that come on themselves and auto dip (or not)   ::)



 


 
Title: Re: This may interest Jazz Hybrid owners, purely for comparison
Post by: Karoq on May 19, 2022, 07:33:40 PM
I have had heated seats for years and would NOT buy a car without, but I have a reason! A very bad back. Spinal stenosis, kyphosis and spondilolythesis. The heated seat is magic for helping with the pain.
I too poo-poo'd heating steering wheels as only for wimps, but in the very cold weather this year I found that I could keep my HR-V as economical as possible by having the heater right off and the seat and steering wheel heat ON (as both run from the 12v battery. I was toasty in no time. as you say, not much use for demisting though!