Clubjazz - Honda Jazz & HR-V Forums
Honda Jazz Forums => Honda Jazz Mk3 2015 - 2020 => Topic started by: Skyrider on October 25, 2018, 04:35:25 PM
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I have started this thread as I don't want to thread drift other threads. Some may find my opinions contentious but I am not trying to upset or annoy anyone.
I am a believer in leaving a torque converter transmission (Jazz CVT) in this case, to do its own thing, particularly when stopped for short periods. This means foot on brake, engine auto off, unless repeated very short stops are required when I switch the auto stop start off. Now for what may be the contentious bit. I think that the drivers who put an auto into neutral or park during a normal traffic length stop may be reverting to decades of manual transmission use. The excuse of " I want to turn my brake lights off " does not work for me. They would probably be the only car in the queue without brake lights on. I will select neutral and handbrake on for a long stop to give my foot a rest and if it is a really long stop turn the engine off.
Feel free to discuss.
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I agree with all of this. I do find keeping the foot on the brake can be a pain at times usually at lights with a long stop time and have been tempted to switch off - I would do at a level crossing.
On the auto idle stop, I turn mine off if I know I'm not going to be stopped at lights - so, typically, on the way home, having gone through my last lot of lights, I'll turn it off. I hate it auto stopping in my drive and then restarting.
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Driving a manual hire car for two weeks reminded me how tiring it is to keep the clutch depressed during short traffic stops. So shifting into neutral becomes a habit. Keeping a foot on the brake alone is not so tiring, as the pedal is not so far depressed as when de-clutching, and the pedal pressure is less. But for a long stop in the cvt I go into park and switch off.
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But for a long stop in the cvt I go into park and switch off.
No problem with that, remember that the driver behind you will twitch when your reversing lights flash as you go through reverse to get to drive to move off. :o
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It's decades since I owned an automatic and I'm now looking forward to the arrival of my CVT. At the moment I think I will be driving it exactly as described in the opening by Skyrider. The difference on the HR-V is that it has Brake Assist so we will see.
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It's decades since I owned an automatic and I'm now looking forward to the arrival of my CVT. At the moment I think I will be driving it exactly as described in the opening by Skyrider. The difference on the HR-V is that it has Brake Assist so we will see.
Brake assist will not make any difference, it is an emergency stop assist. The Jazz has it.
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It's decades since I owned an automatic and I'm now looking forward to the arrival of my CVT. At the moment I think I will be driving it exactly as described in the opening by Skyrider. The difference on the HR-V is that it has Brake Assist so we will see.
Brake assist will not make any difference, it is an emergency stop assist. The Jazz has it.
Sorry I meant Automatic Brake Hold
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It's decades since I owned an automatic and I'm now looking forward to the arrival of my CVT. At the moment I think I will be driving it exactly as described in the opening by Skyrider. The difference on the HR-V is that it has Brake Assist so we will see.
Brake assist will not make any difference, it is an emergency stop assist. The Jazz has it.
Sorry I meant Automatic Brake Hold
The Jazz has that too. :-)
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It's decades since I owned an automatic and I'm now looking forward to the arrival of my CVT. At the moment I think I will be driving it exactly as described in the opening by Skyrider. The difference on the HR-V is that it has Brake Assist so we will see.
Brake assist will not make any difference, it is an emergency stop assist. The Jazz has it.
Sorry I meant Automatic Brake Hold
The Jazz has that too. :-)
Really? Did that come in with the face lift then? I talking about the 10 minute brake hold.
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It's decades since I owned an automatic and I'm now looking forward to the arrival of my CVT. At the moment I think I will be driving it exactly as described in the opening by Skyrider. The difference on the HR-V is that it has Brake Assist so we will see.
Brake assist will not make any difference, it is an emergency stop assist. The Jazz has it.
Sorry I meant Automatic Brake Hold
The Jazz has that too. :-)
Really? Did that come in with the face lift then? I talking about the 10 minute brake hold.
I don't know of a ten minute brake hold system, I thought you meant the hill start assist function.
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One thing fpr
The excuse of " I want to turn my brake lights off " does not work for me. They would probably be the only car in the queue without brake lights on. I will select neutral and handbrake on for a long stop to give my foot a rest and if it is a really long stop turn the engine off.
I think many drivers don't realise that cars with brake hold leave the brake lights on. VW group cars didn't used to but they changed it a few years ago.
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It's decades since I owned an automatic and I'm now looking forward to the arrival of my CVT. At the moment I think I will be driving it exactly as described in the opening by Skyrider. The difference on the HR-V is that it has Brake Assist so we will see.
Brake assist will not make any difference, it is an emergency stop assist. The Jazz has it.
Sorry I meant Automatic Brake Hold
The Jazz has that too. :-)
Really? Did that come in with the face lift then? I talking about the 10 minute brake hold.
I don't know of a ten minute brake hold system, I thought you meant the hill start assist function.
That's because it isn't on the Jazz but it is on the HR-V
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One thing fpr The excuse of " I want to turn my brake lights off " does not work for me. They would probably be the only car in the queue without brake lights on. I will select neutral and handbrake on for a long stop to give my foot a rest and if it is a really long stop turn the engine off.
I think many drivers don't realise that cars with brake hold leave the brake lights on. VW group cars didn't used to but they changed it a few years ago.
Yeah I noticed that on the demo car. Bit of a design fault I think
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What is the ten minute brake hold used for?
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What is the ten minute brake hold used for?
Keeps the brake applied after releasing the brake pedal until the accelerator pedal is pressed. You can use this system while the vehicle is temporarily stopped, such as when you stop at a traffic light.
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I largely agree with you Skyrider however you make it sound like some of us are annoyed and frustrated by the requirement to keep pressing the brake pedal down. I don't think anyone has actually said that. For my part I'd prefer to be able to hold the car on the handbrake in neutral and release the foot brake but it doesn't bother me. Most of my irritation comes from not understanding why Honda designed it the way they did. It feels like bad design or a fault and that bothers me.
In stop/start traffic I will hang back and try to avoid coming to a complete stop for less than three seconds. But other than that I don't care. I never turn I/S off. It does what it does very well and if I have to I know how to prevent it cutting the engine off.
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I hate it auto stopping in my drive and then restarting.
You just need to learn the right amount of brake pressure to stop the car but not the engine. I use this when I'm parking my car in the garage. Having the engine switch off then back on then off is a waste of fuel. So I stop the car without triggering I/S.
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I never switch I/S off, but it rarely triggers, simply because I don't apply enough brake pressure.
I was taught to feather the brake on coming to a stop, to avoid any jolt and keep my passengers happy.
But that was over 60 years ago, maybe that technique is not taught nowadays?
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I never switch I/S off, but it rarely triggers, simply because I don't apply enough brake pressure.
I was taught to feather the brake on coming to a stop, to avoid any jolt and keep my passengers happy.
But that was over 60 years ago, maybe that technique is not taught nowadays?
That is the way I drive as well - nothing worse than a sudden jolt as the car stops completely. A sign of careless / thoughtless driving.
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I never switch I/S off, but it rarely triggers, simply because I don't apply enough brake pressure.
I was taught to feather the brake on coming to a stop, to avoid any jolt and keep my passengers happy.
But that was over 60 years ago, maybe that technique is not taught nowadays?
I only switch it off as I approach home - all other times it's on. Maybe I am a bit heavy footed but mine doesn't need that much pressure for it to activate. I do "feather" the brake at roundabouts mainly to avoid the idle stop activating.
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I hesitate about sticking my head above this particular parapet, but in the interests of stimulating a discussion I'll give it a go.
When I saw the title of the thread, I thought "Great, we'll have an interesting debate about the merits & disadvantages of Manual vs CVT". But no, instead we have a repeat of what always seems to happen when CVTs come up, ie a lengthy exchange of views about their foibles. What position to have the lever in, whether to keep your foot on the brake or not, how to "fool" the idle-stop into not working, other threads have said they're slow to take off when trying to get into a gap at a roundabout, etc. I understand CVTs have their fans, but if they require all that "inside knowledge" to get them to function sensibly, are they really that great ? I admit I've never driven a CVT so can't make any personal comparisons, and based on many of the comments here I'm not sure I want to.
By contrast a manual doesn't seem to require so much system knowledge. You select the gear you want for the speed you want, the car responds as quickly as you want. When you stop, the idle-stop operates seamlessly to keep your pollution down without annoying anyone behind you, you don't have to worry about using too much brake pressure. Seems much easier to me.
Just to forestall the inevitable cries of "Stirring a stick is so old-fashioned, the future's automatic, get with it !", an awful lot of manuals are still being sold (there must be a reason for that ... maybe being £1k cheaper helps). I actually enjoy stirring the stick, it's part of the skill of driving.
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To be fair ColinB I don't think it's necessarily a case of manual bad/automatic good. In my earlier years I wouldn't have considered an automatic. I'd driven them on both of our 2 visits to the USA but, although I enjoyed the experience, I never went ahead and bought an automatic.
As an old codger, various issues with arthritic ankles and a problem with my shoulder, pushed me towards an automatic and I certainly don't regret the switch. A lot of my driving is in heavy traffic and you realise what a monumental PITA driving in stop start traffic in a manual really is.
A better discussion might be about the merits of CVT versus other types of automatic. My cousin's husband (who sadly died earlier this year) knew a lot about cars - he worked for Vauxhall on engine design after qualifying as a mechanical engineer for the first part of his career. He was a vociferous critic of CVTs and, although he preferred an automatic, said he would never buy a CVT. Having one myself I can accept that many of the criticisms are valid but for me, doing a lot of local stop/start stuff, they are fine. Not sure a genuinely enthusiastic driver would like them though.
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I never switch I/S off, but it rarely triggers, simply because I don't apply enough brake pressure.
I was taught to feather the brake on coming to a stop, to avoid any jolt and keep my passengers happy.
But that was over 60 years ago, maybe that technique is not taught nowadays?
The IAM also taught me gentle braking but it doesn't preclude applying additional pressure once (almost) stopped ;)
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I understand CVTs have their fans, but if they require all that "inside knowledge" to get them to function sensibly, are they really that great ? I admit I've never driven a CVT so can't make any personal comparisons, and based on many of the comments here I'm not sure I want to.
They don't require it any more than operating a manual gear box needs good clutch control, good gear choice, matching gear selection with RPM or knowing how a particular box performs (eg; needing to pause when going between certain gears).
An automatic requires less skill, but that doesn't mean there isn't scope for operating it more effectively should an advanced driver wish to do so.
And the discussion on use of the brake pedal applies equally to manual boxes both for idle/stop and for whether or not you apply the handbrake when stationary. In fact I'd say 80% of this discussion applies to manual Jazz versions. The only difference really is that we can't release the brake pedal if we want i/s to operate at its best.
You select the gear you want for the speed you want, the car responds as quickly as you want
Really? Any gear? Here are the instructions for an automatic: 'D' for drive and 'R' for reverse. Let's see you condense the operation of a manual gear box into five words that will allow smooth, efficient, safe and mechanically sound progress.
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Let's see you condense the operation of a manual gear box into five words that will allow smooth, efficient, safe and mechanically sound progress.
How about..."Use appropriate gear as necessary."
Seriously though, I have driven manual all my life apart from on multiple trips to the USA. I broke my left ankle 5 days before a massive US road trip. I could not drive in the UK but managed 3,000 miles in the USA on that trip!
My Jazz is a manual, and I love driving it from time to time - it is really my son's but he lives in London now and has no use for it. Might sell it soon.
However a year ago I bought a Toyota Rav4 Hybrid. Whilst it is neither an automatic or a CVT, strictly speaking, it is set up to look and feel like an automatic. I was a little bit trepidatious initially as to how I would find it, and sometimes it's behaviour is a little weird - on a particularly steep and twisty part of the hill up to my house, you put your foot down, the 2.5l petrol engine revs highly so you think you are about to take off like a rocket, but the power is fed in via the hybrid power train and everything is subtle and smooth, unless you are in Sport mode.
It all seems to work really well and overall makes for quite an efficient overall consumption for 2.5 petrol engined car, particularly on mostly downhill or short level journeys. And the bonus of rear while electric drive when needed is really nice too.
Is it the future? No, its a staging point I think. But it is a well designed system. I don't know how the Honda hybrids work but I will be finding out in the next two years as, once my older dogs cross the rainbow bridge, I will be moving back down into Jazz sized cars again.
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What is the ten minute brake hold used for?
Keeps the brake applied after releasing the brake pedal until the accelerator pedal is pressed. You can use this system while the vehicle is temporarily stopped, such as when you stop at a traffic light.
However, it doesn't play nicely with the Auto Stop (if you use it) as taking the foot off the brake pedal means the engine restarts.
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Let's see you condense the operation of a manual gear box into five words that will allow smooth, efficient, safe and mechanically sound progress.
How about..."Use appropriate gear as necessary."
Lol. You try telling a learner on their first lesson to 'use appropriate gear as necessary' and see how they get on :)
A modern automatic (especially a CVT) can select a better gear ratio than most drivers mainly because operating a manual gear box optimally is difficult and most drivers can't/won't make the effort. But the future is no gearbox at all because the future is electric. Eventually the future will be driverless but I don't think any of us here will be alive by the time that becomes common. I actually rather hope the future will be 'People don't have to travel significant distances just to get to work or school because of telepresence (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telepresence)' but that's a while off as well.
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Quite rightly someone who has only passed their driving test in an automatic gearbox car is only allowed drive automatics, where someone who passes in a manual car can drive both. I am in the 'use it or lose it ' camp as far as skills are concerned, but I have lived overseas and driven automatics for many years because they were readily available and manuals were rare / special order only, but it didn't stop me getting manual cars when I returned to UK for holiday or to live. If humans keep going as they are their hands will get bigger so that they can handle larger phones and tablets with one hand but their legs will undoubtedly shrivel up and atrophy. If i was in a situation where I had problems with left arm or left leg I would get an auto, but until then I like manuals - I don't willingly hand over control to any machinery, and I have worked with Robotics and automation for most of my career. Choosing the correct gear for the circumstances is part of the skill of driving, too many skills are being usurped by automation ( knowing when to turn your wipers on, knowing what the speed limits signs say, knowing when to turn your lights on and when to dip your main beam) which is pretty crude / badly implemented compared to humans.
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That's my issue - left arm and left leg. TBH I could still drive a manual but the automatic does make life that bit easier. I'd be snookered if my problems were right arm and right leg ;D
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That's my issue - left arm and left leg. TBH I could still drive a manual but the automatic does make life that bit easier. I'd be snookered if my problems were right arm and right leg ;D
I can understand why you changed to an auto, as I said I would do the same in your circumstances.