Author Topic: H4 Osram Led Legal  (Read 2949 times)

TnTkr

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Re: H4 Osram Led Legal
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2023, 04:58:58 AM »
And it’s the “bright within the beam” issue that is the problem, because others drivers will be subjected to that as the car pitches and bounces on a typical road, or the driver forgets to dip the lights.
So do the original factory mounted LEDs as well.

I don’t think any version of the Mk3 Jazz has factory fitted LED headlights (could be wrong?). So I assume you’re referring to other marques. And yes, you’re right, they are a problem … but just because it’s done doesn’t make it right.
I am primarily referring to GK5 i.e. 1.5 Sport/Dynamic, which is equipped with LED headlights as standard.

This is not about what is right, but what is fulfilling the homologation criteria. If it annoys or disturbs some road users, is not relevant in regarding what is and must be allowed.

However, I do recognize different standpoint and assumptions depending on whether debater comes from a civil law or from a common law legal system.

I remember similar discussion in 70's when halogen headlights begun to replace conventional incandescent headlight bulbs.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2023, 07:21:51 AM by TnTkr »

ColinB

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Re: H4 Osram Led Legal
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2023, 07:59:50 AM »
I appreciate this is off the original topic, but it wasn’t me who veered in that direction, and some of the comments did need to be challenged.

I am primarily referring to GK5 i.e. 1.5 Sport/Dynamic, which is equipped with LED headlights as standard.
I wasn’t aware of that, my bad, so I thought you were talking about retro-fitted bulbs. I wasn’t really referring to factory-fitted lights, which presumably are totally legal, although some marques do seem to stretch the limits of that. Whether those legal limits have kept up with modern lighting technology is another topic, but many marques with super-bright lights do cause problems for other drivers in real-world motoring.

This is not about what is right, but what is fulfilling the homologation criteria. If it annoys or disturbs some road users, is not relevant in regarding what is and must be allowed.
Well, some of the other contributors to this thread have admitted fitting LEDs illegally, and those may or may not conform to beam pattern and brightness requirements. I won’t judge the morality of that (although I have an opinion), but I wanted to make the point that that doesn’t just “annoy or disturb” other road users, it creates a genuine hazard.

jazzaro

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Re: H4 Osram Led Legal
« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2023, 08:36:16 AM »
I don’t think any version of the Mk3 Jazz has factory fitted LED headlights (could be wrong?). So I assume you’re referring to other marques. And yes, you’re right, they are a problem … but just because it’s done doesn’t make it right.
Jazz Mk3 had factory led lights on the 1.5 Sport and on the top trim of the 1.3 (EX?) after the middle age restyling.
Factory headlights, halogen, LED, Hid are all legal, so they are certified for no glaring in standard conditions.

UKjim

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Re: H4 Osram Led Legal
« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2023, 09:01:27 AM »
There was an article in The Telegraph yesterday stating that many older drivers were choosing not to drive at night due to the brightness of modern LED headlights. It suggested as older drivers are more likely to have cataracts affecting  night vision this was causing the problem.

I can relate to this as I avoided night driving a few years ago but after having cataract surgery night driving even with the brightness of modern headlights is no longer a problem.

Lord Voltermore

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Re: H4 Osram Led Legal
« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2023, 09:47:37 AM »
Now in Italy or Germany or France, if a policeman finds an Osram led bulb inside the headlight of my Jazz, I will show him the proper declaration.
"Street Legal for Honda Jazz" means that the assembly headlight with Homologation nr E4-17782 + Osram NIGHT BREAKER H4-LED part number 64193DWNB meets ECE37, ECE48 and ECE112 rules about minimun quantity of lumens measured in some points in front of the car (enough light on the ground and pedestrians) and about maximun lumens in other points (no glaring), and that the compliance has been certified by deutch StVZO, TUV-Sud and KBA organizations.
I think UK could easily follow the UE pattern, the problem is that UK drive with left hand traffic so headlight reflectors are different and the UK Jazz headlight homologation number will not be E4-17782 but something different, maybe E4-17435, and Osram hasn't produced any document for this headlight.

For administrators: if you try to post a message  with an Umlaut (some deutsch words have it), the system will reply an error message.
Dazzle the police with homologation numbers!  ;D   

as for the UK  following  EU standards  we currently have too many politicians  who reject everything originating in the EU on principle   however sensible it may be. 
  Trust a dog to guard your house  , but not your sandwich

jazzaro

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Re: H4 Osram Led Legal
« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2023, 09:51:29 AM »
Dazzle the police with homologation numbers!  ;D   

Jocko

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Re: H4 Osram Led Legal
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2023, 02:43:53 PM »
The headlamp units fitted with LED bulbs from the factory are different from those fitted with standard bulbs, making them legal. if you swap the entire headlamp unit (which is marked accordingly) then you can fit LED bulbs, legally, to any Mk 3 Jazz.
I suffer from cataracts so I avoid driving at night but elderly people also have reduced night vision. The typical 50-year-old driver needs twice as much light to see as well after dark as a 30-year-old. This reduction in night vision continues as you age so by the time you get to my age, even without cataracts, night driving is a chore best avoided.

jazzaro

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Re: H4 Osram Led Legal
« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2023, 06:22:06 PM »
The headlamp units fitted with LED bulbs from the factory are different from those fitted with standard bulbs, making them legal. if you swap the entire headlamp unit (which is marked accordingly) then you can fit LED bulbs, legally, to any Mk 3 Jazz.
If present in the car with a  factory led headlamp, you must also swap the auto-levelling system.

Kremmen

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Re: H4 Osram Led Legal
« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2023, 05:28:49 AM »
I know HID's have auto levelling but I don't think LED's have ?
Let's be careful out there !

jazzaro

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Re: H4 Osram Led Legal
« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2023, 01:02:56 PM »
I know HID's have auto levelling but I don't think LED's have ?
According to ECE48 rules, if the light source has more than 2000lumens then the car (or truck) must have an auto levelling system and a headlight washing device. If the vehicle does not modify front/rear height from light to full load, the auto levelling can be not mounted, so Citroens and other cars with rear  axle auto levelling suspension can not have the auto headlight levelling system.
Halogens have about 1500 lumens, LED and HID can have different power: 25W Hid does not exceed 2000lumens, 35W hids do.  The same for LEDs, present Jazz hybrids have a manual levelling system so this means their headlight do not exceed 2000lumens: CR-V LED headlights do this.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2023, 04:44:00 PM by jazzaro »

TnTkr

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Re: H4 Osram Led Legal
« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2023, 06:49:38 AM »
GK5 Jazz with factory LEDs has an auto levelling system but no washing device.

It's actually expressed in quite complicated way in the directive, but with LEDs the levelling must be automatic. If the vehicle suspension (e.g. Citroen) automatically adjusts and thus keeps the light pattern within the limits, then the suspension functions fulfil the requirements for the auto levelling of the headlights. Nothing in the directive says which parts needs to move in the auto levelling, reflector, lamp assembly or the whole car.  ;)
« Last Edit: May 17, 2023, 09:11:38 AM by TnTkr »

Jocko

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Re: H4 Osram Led Legal
« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2023, 02:16:55 PM »
I would imagine, in the case of the Jazz, if you went to the expense of changing the entire light units then that would incorporate the self-levelling, seeing as it is part of the light assembly.

jazzaro

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Re: H4 Osram Led Legal
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2023, 03:52:58 PM »
GK5 Jazz with factory LEDs has an auto levelling system but no washing device.
It's actually expressed in quite complicated way in the directive, but with LEDs the levelling must be automatic.
Not true, the Jazz GR (the present Hybrid) has full Led and manual levelling as my halogened GK3.
I must read the last ECE rules to understand what has changed from rules for halogen and HID.

Kremmen

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Re: H4 Osram Led Legal
« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2023, 04:32:42 PM »
I didn't want to post again as I don't know, but I'm also sure the MK4 Jazz, with full LED, only has the manual rotary switch to adjust the beam height dependent on load.
Let's be careful out there !

TnTkr

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Re: H4 Osram Led Legal
« Reply #29 on: May 17, 2023, 06:02:03 PM »
Okay, thank you for the correction. There must be some cross reference in the directive, which I haven't noticed.

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