Author Topic: Timing chain or belt?  (Read 16895 times)

jazzaro

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Timing chain or belt?
« on: February 16, 2016, 04:42:41 PM »
Just a question, 'cause I still don't know if the 1318cc engine powering the GK Jazz mounts a timing belt or a timing chain...
Any info about it?
Many thanks...
Fede
« Last Edit: February 17, 2016, 10:42:34 PM by jazzaro »

monkeydave

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Re: Timing chain or belt?
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2016, 05:03:11 PM »
all jazzes are chains

jazzaro

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Re: Timing chain or belt?
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2016, 07:53:26 PM »
I know that old jazz engines all have timing chain, but my dealer answered "belt" and the new civic engines, the 1.0 litre and the 1.5 litre will use a wet belt. EDIT only the 1.0L has a wet timing belt, the 1.5 has a timing chain.
So are you sure that the 1.3 is an "old style" jazz engine?
Thanks again..
« Last Edit: February 17, 2016, 12:55:38 PM by jazzaro »

John Ratsey

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Re: Timing chain or belt?
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2016, 08:33:33 PM »
This report http://paultan.org/2015/10/19/2016-honda-civic-powertrains-detailed-new-1-5-litre-vtec-turbo-engine-and-cvt-transmission/ about a 2016 Civic with a 1.5 L engine says it has a chain. Would Honda make different engines for different markets.

That doesn't answer the orginal question but I'm under the impression that the engine in the Mk 3 Jazz is a minor evolution of the Mk 2 engine. There might be a timing belt interval in the servicing schedule (see this discussion http://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=2511.0) but it may be a generic schedule which only appplies if there is a belt.
2022 HR-V Elegance, previously 2020 Jazz Crosstar

jazzaro

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Re: Timing chain or belt?
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2016, 12:48:45 PM »
According to Paultan.org, the 1.0L will have wet belt
http://paultan.org/2015/11/07/driven-honda-1-0-and-1-5-litre-vtec-turbo-first-impressions-via-a-euro-civic-hatch-and-jade-rs-mpv/honda-1-0-turbo-panel/
and the 1.5L will have a timing chain, following your link.  Also the naturally aspirated 1.5i-vtec now powering HR-Vs and Fits has a timing chain:
http://www.hondapartsnow.com/parts-list/2015-honda-fit-5dr_lx-ka-6mt/camshaft-cam-chain.html
Pictures of the new two Civic X engines show how they probably belong to different families, inlet ports, exhaust ports, turbocharger, kat and minor devices (generator, a/c compressor) have different layout. Meanwhile, there are few info and pictures about the 1.3...

1.3L Atkinson Cycle DOHC i-VTEC
The completely new 1.3L Atkinson Cycle DOHC (Double Over Head Camshaft) i-VTEC engine delivers 73kW and 119Nm of torque. Introducing elements of Honda’s Earth Dreams Technology, it greatly enhances both the driving performance and fuel efficiency of the vehicle.
The DOHC valvetrain means greater performance in conjunction with i-VTEC and E-VTC (Electric Variable Timing Control).
The Atkinson cycle engine coupled with the all new CVT transmission provides excellent fuel economy and driver enjoyment.
Fuel economy figures have also significantly improved due to the efficient nature of the Atkinson cycle layout, extensive friction reduction measures and drastic improvements in weight and lubrication in the CVT gearbox.
Fuel efficiency is improved by 1.5L per 100km. This equates to a more than 147km of extra driving per tank of petrol, even though the tank is 2 litres smaller than the previous model.
Key New Features
Cylinder Head and Valvetrain
•   Double Over Head Camshaft configuration
•   High Flow Intake port
•   i-VTEC with Electric Variable Timing Control (E-VTC)
Engine Bottom End
•   Aluminium cooling collar
•   Improved cooling and lubrication
•   Revised piston design
•   Reduction in weight of rotational parts
•   High compression 13.5:1 ratio.
•   EGR cooler
Atkinson Cycle Operation
Improved Fuel Economy, over 25% reduction in L/100km over previous generation Jazz 1.3 engine. Reduced from 6.6L/100km to 5.1L/100kms.
The modern Atkinson engine delays the intake valve closing, causing the compression stroke to be shorter than the power stroke. As a result the compression ratio is decreased, while the expansion ratio remains the same. This means the air in the expansion stroke is at a higher compression ratio. The benefit of this is that the pressure in the combustion chamber at the end of the power stroke is as close as possible to atmospheric pressure, meaning that more of the energy obtained from the explosion has been converted into mechanical power (something we can use to turn the wheels, rather than heat), thus increasing the efficiency and resulting in a more effective use of the petrol.
As controlling the intake valve operation is the key to the modern Atkinson engine, Honda has matched this with a combination of i-VTEC and Electric VTC systems. The combination of these technologies gives both the advantages of an Atkinson Cycle engine, coupled with the economy and performance advantages provided by the high and low cam profiles of the i-VTEC system. The electric VTC system also gives more rapid and precise control of camshaft advance and retard, and continuous control of valve phase.
   from Honda New Zealand website.

Wikipedia and Automobile-Catalog talk about a L13B engine so, as you said, it should have a timing chain.
Many thanks and sorry again for my english.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2016, 12:57:16 PM by jazzaro »

monkeydave

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Re: Timing chain or belt?
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2016, 06:03:47 PM »
i knew they cant be that stupid to go back to a belt lol
« Last Edit: February 17, 2016, 06:06:25 PM by monkeydave »

bucksfizz

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Re: Timing chain or belt?
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2016, 03:43:14 PM »
Car Magazine has a road test of the new !.0 litre Civic which includes the following 'Clever tech includes a timing belt
running in oil to cut friction'
   My understanding of the combination of oil(synthetic and mineral) and rubber is that the result  would be              catastrophic for the engine.Am I getting out of touch with technology or is there some confusion with belt and chain
drive for the valve gear?

Skyrider

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Re: Timing chain or belt?
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2016, 04:01:08 PM »
I believe the Ford 1.0 ecoboost engine also uses a wet belt camshaft drive.

jazzaro

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Re: Timing chain or belt?
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2016, 12:34:57 PM »
Car Magazine has a road test of the new !.0 litre Civic which includes the following 'Clever tech includes a timing belt
running in oil to cut friction'
   My understanding of the combination of oil(synthetic and mineral) and rubber is that the result  would be              catastrophic for the engine.Am I getting out of touch with technology or is there some confusion with belt and chain
drive for the valve gear?
You only have to fill in the right oil.
Many rubber components can easily resist in combination with synthetic and mineral, think at gaskets, o-rings and many hoses... So imho there are no problems.

VicW

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Re: Timing chain or belt?
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2016, 03:14:26 PM »
'Clever tech includes a timing belt
running in oil to cut friction'

Sorry if I am out of date but isn't this an oxymoron? If the oil 'cuts friction' how does a belt work which surely relies on friction to operate?

Vic.

Skyrider

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Re: Timing chain or belt?
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2016, 03:29:52 PM »
'Clever tech includes a timing belt
running in oil to cut friction'

Sorry if I am out of date but isn't this an oxymoron? If the oil 'cuts friction' how does a belt work which surely relies on friction to operate?

Vic.

It is a toothed belt that looks like any other timing belt but no doubt made from an exotic substance.

VicW

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Re: Timing chain or belt?
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2016, 03:39:43 PM »
Well it can't be made out of 'unobtainium' as this would make it more expensive than a chain.

Vic.

culzean

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Re: Timing chain or belt?
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2016, 04:23:56 PM »
'Clever tech includes a timing belt
running in oil to cut friction'

Sorry if I am out of date but isn't this an oxymoron? If the oil 'cuts friction' how does a belt work which surely relies on friction to operate?

Vic.

http://www.continental-corporation.com/www/iaa_com_en/general/2013/highlights_en/pi_belt_in_oil_en.html

A toothed belt is required to keep the camshaft and the crankshaft rotating synchronously with each other to keep timing of valves correct (no slipping can be tolerated), toothed belt does not rely on friction to drive,  but is you can cut the friction of the belt teeth in the sprocket you can get longer life less power required to drive.  Modern plastics are many times better than 'unobtainium' - and can be obtained  :D

I do think the article (link attached) is kind of anal on the very slight stretch that can happen with a chain making a difference to valve timing and emissions though,  given that the chain was a vast improvement over the belts available that needed replacing every 50K or so - suppose they have to justify the 'new' belt tech somehow simply because Continental make belts and don't make chains  :-X
« Last Edit: October 05, 2016, 04:31:29 PM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

VicW

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Re: Timing chain or belt?
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2016, 07:09:11 PM »
My error in that I  completely forgot that the belts and pulleys are toothed. Stupid boy.

Vic.

RichardA

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Re: Timing chain or belt?
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2016, 11:18:29 AM »
Some belts such as on the VW group 1.4 TSi ACT engine are designed to last the life of the engine.

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