Stop-start

[guest809]

Hi guys, we have a 2005 Sport and are beginning to think about changing for a GE in 2012 but in considering competitors it struck me there can't be many manufacturers now not offering stop-start on cars which will, in our case anyway, spend most of its life in and around town.

Am I missing something in saying I can't see Honda offer it even as an option? Seems a bit out of date if that really is the case, which would surprise me given they claim to be a company keen on cutting edge technology etc.

[guest1521]

Pretty sure Honda don't offer stop/start. I wonder how reliable some stop/start systems will be as they rack up the miles. Across all its models Honda is tops, or thereabouts, for reliability - has been for years and I'd imagine they'd be careful to safeguard that. 

IMO 'stop/start' adds another 'electronics complication' that could potentially 'play up' at any time.  I'd imagine the starter motor would be heavier duty but I wonder, too, how stop/starting might ultimately effect longevity of various engine and exhaust (cat, DPF) components...   

It's surely great to have fuel-saving technology... as long as it doesn't add to cost in other ways (repairs and maintenance)... and hassle.

Modern, albeit highly economical, diesel engines with turbos (another expensive component that can potentially go wrong) and Diesel Particulate Filters/DPF which are reputed to be troublesome - sometimes expensively so - in round town conditions are a case in point. IMO.

Complication adds cost at purchase and, potentially, hassle and cost during service. Well engineered simplicity can be king.

[Ozzie]

Jazz Hybrid has stop-start, Honda refers it as auto-stop, but bear in mind that the Jazz Hybrid is an automatic gearbox.

Ozzie

[guest2867]

our last car a vw had stop start it drove me mad, you could switch it off tho and i always did.

[John Ratsey]

The hybrid uses the IMA battery and motor for the auto-start so there's no extra wear on the normal battery and starter motor. It's more a case of getting the car moving with the IMA and then letting some fuel into the engine to boost the power.

John

[Ozzie]

The hybrid uses the IMA battery and motor for the auto-start so there's no extra wear on the normal battery and starter motor. It's more a case of getting the car moving with the IMA and then letting some fuel into the engine to boost the power.

John

Now thats how I remember the test drive being . . . . but my Hybrid restarts as you come off the footbrake, it does not move silently purely on IMA, but I'm certain the one I test drove did.

[John Ratsey]

Now thats how I remember the test drive being . . . . but my Hybrid restarts as you come off the footbrake, it does not move silently purely on IMA, but I'm certain the one I test drove did.

Perhaps I was over simplifying. I agree that one cannot detect the Hybrid actually pulling away on battery alone. Basically, Hybrid motor starting, car moving and engine delivering power all happen together.

I have also noticed that auto-stop doesn't always happen in repeated stop-start conditions. The documentation does mention this somewhere but doesn't explain the factors (but running the air-con is one).

Anyway, how are you and your customers finding the Hybrid?

John

[Ozzie]

Customers, examiners and myself are all very impressed with it.

The only changes I would make is the stupid indicators are so sensitive for the "lane changing" its fine if the are firm with the indicators but if they just catch it, we start the disco flashing light sequence. Also a bigger tank wouldn't go amiss. 40 litres is OK but the fuel guage shows empty and I struggle to get over 30 litres in it, also supermarkets give discounts occassionally but a small tank minimises the benefits. Another 15 litres would be nice.

Overall very happy with it.

Ozzie

[guest1521]

Good to hear you are pleased with your Hybrid, Ozzie. P'raps it'll prove to be as well engineered for reliability and longevity as is generally typical for Honda. Meanwhile I came across this today from Honest John to do with cost of running an 'economy' diesel as opposed to a simpler petrol. If what Honest John says is correct (and he does have a great reputation) who'd want to run a latest technology 'economy' diesel to high mileages? Almost scandalous when one considers the typical service life of old technology diesel engines... then turbos were added, followed by dual mass flywheels and DPFs. Albeit they get significantly more mpg than the old ones.
However, for overall cost-saving... Ozzie's Jazz Hybrid may have much more going for it than a latest technology 'economy' diesel. 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/caradvice/honestjohn/8883344/5000-car-for-a-400-mile-weekly-commute.html

[guest1844]

Can't see the benefit of stop start, other than qualifying for lower car tax. As an engineer I'd rather see the engine started and left running, to keep the lubrication going, temperature gradients across the head, hot spots when coolant flow stops, battery discharge/charge, starter motor wear, catalyst cooling down to below operating temp and up again etc. Probably cheaper in the first three years but then the second owner will pay for it. I wouldn't buy a secondhand one, full stop.
I used to run diesels but the risk of a big bill is too high. Hard to get a whacking bill on a petrol, head-off prob the worst, but a diesel - inj pump, DPF, injectors - can all kill your savings. A modern TD is a good drive though, arguably a nicer engine than a run-of-the-mill petrol.

[John Ratsey]

@Ozzie: The conservative fuel gauge seems to be a feature of all the Jazzes. An the computer gives a good range until the tank is about half empty and then it also goes off course. I think I read somewhere that the design is to have 7 litres remaining at empty.

I once refilled my Hybrid with the gauge almost on empty, the computer saying 13 miles remaining and I managed to squeeze 33.5 litres into the tank.

John

[Ozzie]

@Ozzie: The conservative fuel gauge seems to be a feature of all the Jazzes. An the computer gives a good range until the tank is about half empty and then it also goes off course. I think I read somewhere that the design is to have 7 litres remaining at empty.

I once refilled my Hybrid with the gauge almost on empty, the computer saying 13 miles remaining and I managed to squeeze 33.5 litres into the tank.

John

Excellent, thats what I did.

I started a 2 hour lesson with 80 miles range left, which should be loads, with an hour to go, I glanced across and it was showing 40 miles left and I was being reminded that we were low on fuel, by the car and the pupil. We ended the lesson with 20 miles left, so I drove it quite hard to the petrol station and managed to get it down to 12 mile range, but just about squeezed 33 litres in.

Oz

[culzean]

Can't see the benefit of stop start, other than qualifying for lower car tax. As an engineer I'd rather see the engine started and left running, to keep the lubrication going, temperature gradients across the head, hot spots when coolant flow stops, battery discharge/charge, starter motor wear, catalyst cooling down to below operating temp and up again etc.

As an engineer I also agree that engines are best left running - because of all the things that you point out.   Stop-Start is a sticking plaster solution that car makers use to nudge their cars below the CO2 Kg/Km limit for congestion charge and to try and bring down their overall company emission levels. 

As for diesels, the Americans have always known that diesels are dirty, that is why you don't see diesel cars is USA.  Sure diesels  have lower CO2 than petrol, but to offset that they pump out higher levels of NOX and cancer causing particulates by the shed-load - just follow a diesel up a hill or if it is accelerating and you will clearly see the clouds of grey and often black fumes billowing out of the tailpipe, (which the smug driver cannot, or doesn't want to see).  All the equipment added to diesels to cut down on these nasties is expensive to make and maintain, with the threat of huge bills to the owner if they go wrong, often at fairly low mileages.

[guest907]

Wait until someone buys a stop/start car that's about 6 to 8 years old maybe with reasonable mileage. How long before it wants a new starter and flywheel (fairly unheard of nowadays) because of the excessive use...now that's going to be seriously expensive!

[Top Down]

Same with the hybrids. How green will throwing away tons of batteries be - and will it not be cost effective to replace them so the car will get thrown away too?