Clubjazz - Honda Jazz & HR-V Forums

Honda Jazz Forums => Hybrid => Topic started by: clivech on January 30, 2020, 01:46:15 PM

Title: Acceleration lag
Post by: clivech on January 30, 2020, 01:46:15 PM
Does anyone have experience of a lag on acceleration with the Jazz hybrid? I've had mine for a few months and when I put my foot down from a stop or low speed, there is a delay before the car picks up speed, and it can be as much as 2-3 seconds – although more often it's a second or so. I've been to the dealer who, although they could find no fault, advised me to have the plugs changed (I have 84,000 miles on the clock, so it was due) - £240. This made no difference. Another dealer – who recognised there was indeed a lag – told me to get the CVT fluid replaced, which I let them do - £90. That made a modest difference, but the lag is still noticeable, as the dealer acknowledged. They suggested replacing the fuel filter and getting valve clearances checked, but admitted this did not seem likely to resolve the problem completely. It really makes driving the car unpleasant (when it does take off, it's not smooth, and you tend to get thrown back in the seat) and possibly unsafe (if the car doesn't respond as I'm entering a roundabout, it can severely reduce the distance between me and those entering the roundabout from the previous entrance). It's also less fun to drive than it should be, as the pickup is slow. Any ideas, anyone?
Title: Re: Acceleration lag
Post by: culzean on January 30, 2020, 04:13:39 PM
I thought the battery was there on a hybrid to make acceleration quicker, has anyone checked the battery condition and if it is charging properly ?
Title: Re: Acceleration lag
Post by: John Ratsey on January 30, 2020, 08:09:40 PM
I owned the hybrid Jazz from 2011 to 2015 and found the acceleration to be responsive without any hint of lag.  If the engine is revving and the vehicle slow to respond then the main suspect is the CVT. How complete is the service history? In around 2013(?) Honda changed the recommended interval for the CVT fluid change from 4 years / 50k miles to 2 years / 25k miles to reflect experience with the MK 1 Jazz CVT once they reached older age and crud accumulated in the system due to insufficient flushing. You can read about the MK 1 Jazz CVT problems in the Mk 1 Jazz sub-forum.

If the engine itself is slow to respond then how healthy is the battery? Have you tried looking at the battery charge / power flow info on the multi-function display. If the IMA motor isn't contributing its 13HP then the engine may struggle to compensate. Also, I recall it's the DSI engine and hence 8 plugs. Many service people overlook the back row of plugs but if you've paid £240 then that should cover the cost of changing all 8 plugs (twice!).
Title: Re: Acceleration lag
Post by: Jocko on January 30, 2020, 09:27:03 PM
Thought the 2011 Hybrid was a V-TEC?
Title: Re: Acceleration lag
Post by: culzean on January 31, 2020, 08:58:48 AM
Thought the 2011 Hybrid was a V-TEC?

IIRC they kept the twin spark for the Hybrid
Title: Re: Acceleration lag
Post by: clivech on January 31, 2020, 08:59:56 AM
Ok, some quick replies. Dealer ran diagnostic: no problems. So battery must be ok. They just replaced the CVT fluid yesterday and the plugs a month ago (all 8). That's the point. All these things have been covered. Their only suggestions are fuel filter and valve clearances, but no one really believes this is the problem. I see there was a recall in 2013 of Fits in Japan because of a lag (and sometimes no acceleration at all), which was a software issue. But this appears to only have affected the double clutch gearbox cars. So i'm baffled, and so is the dealer. Any ideas?
Title: Re: Acceleration lag
Post by: culzean on January 31, 2020, 10:23:15 AM
You have to realise that these days even dealers staff have no real depth of knowledge and only know that the OBD / laptop tells them.  I would go with John Ratsey and check the battery on the multi-function display in the car - seems like the dealer could make an awful lot of money out of you by 'trying' things. I think valve clearances are a red herring as I have never checked or adjusted valve clearances on any Honda I have owned, and they have all done big mileages ( between 130,000 to 190,000 miles ) - the fuel filter is a large one inside the tank and is supposed to be a 'lifetime' filter...  Don't let the dealer use you as a money-spinner by keep getting you to pay for things that will not work because they don't know any better or just want your money.

They have already siphoned over £300 out of your pocket for very little improvement, and it is a mistake to think that the 'dealer has checked things so they must be OK' - Rory ( a forum member ) went back to the dealer many times with his daughters car because of noises from the brakes and even told them it was worn pads maybe due to a sticking caliper ( after soliciting advice from this forum),  but they kept fobbing him off - in the end it was 'worn inner pad caused by a sticking brake caliper'...

For what it is worth I still think it is battery because as John Ratsey says the motor is there to ensure decent acceleration from standstill - which is exactly where your problem is.
Title: Re: Acceleration lag
Post by: jazzavac on February 03, 2020, 01:40:43 PM
Try to disable "Eco" mode - it reduces torque provided by engine, and use "S" gear for best performance.

In "D", especially with "green flower" enabled, acceleration is delayed with effect you describe.

Also, frog progressive acceleration, change your driving style, so you press throttle pedal gradually rather than instantly.
Reason is to keep CVT gearbox in optimal rpm range.
In D mode, flip left paddle, just before you push throttle pedal, and engine response should be instantaneous.

Also, you could try to use paddles which overrides CVT logic and emulate manual gear change. Response to throttle should be linear, like in car with manual gearbox.

I had the similar problem for first couple months, but once I learned how CVT works, very happy now, even in eco mode.
Title: Re: Acceleration lag
Post by: clivech on February 06, 2020, 11:28:41 AM
Ok, couple of interesting ideas here. Readout on the screen does not show problem with battery. I'm not using eco mode. I'm inclined to agree about fuel filter and valve clearances: they just don't seem likely culprits, even adding them together. It's a very definite hesitation: I depress the accelerator and nothing happens for a moment. Then it accelerates, but with a jerk, like it's catching up with the delay. I've tried driving as smoothly as possible, but I need the car to respond to my foot, otherwise I get into trouble trying to slot into small gaps at roundabouts (traffic around here is very heavy these days and you really have to take your chances when they come up!). My Prius is smooth as silk (but rather ponderous!). I don't want to have to drive in S mode all the time, because that really does affect mpg. And having to use the paddles (one of which has broken off anyway!) is a pain. The car should perform smoothly without these interventions. Shouldn't it?!
Title: Re: Acceleration lag
Post by: Jocko on February 06, 2020, 11:33:55 AM
The Jazz has a fly by wire throttle. It could be that the throttle position sensor, a potentiometer, has a faulty track. Same as a noisy volume control on a guitar or an amplifier.
Title: Re: Acceleration lag
Post by: VicW on February 06, 2020, 02:33:52 PM
My Mk1 had a cable throttle and the hybrid in question uses the same DSI engine I think. When was the 'fly-by-wire' throttle introduced. My first Mk2 had it.

Vic.
Title: Re: Acceleration lag
Post by: Jocko on February 06, 2020, 02:41:43 PM
My DSi Mk 1 has it. The cable only goes to the top of the engine where it operates the throttle position sensor, which sends the signal to the ECU.

Item 5

(https://www.parts-honda.uk/thumbs/honda_cars/auto/17SAA601/IMGE/930_930/ACCELERATOR-SENSOR-RH-Honda-Cars-JAZZ-2006-12-S-5-speed-manual-B__2316.jpg)
Title: Re: Acceleration lag
Post by: John Ratsey on February 06, 2020, 08:40:03 PM
It's a very definite hesitation: I depress the accelerator and nothing happens for a moment. Then it accelerates, but with a jerk, like it's catching up with the delay.
Can you clarify if it's the engine which is hesitating or the car? It's normal for the CVT to introduce some lag in response as it lets the engine initially accelerate faster than the vehicle. That said, I don't recall any such lag when I drove the Jazz hybrid as the motor provided some useful low-end torque.

I'm sure that the hybrid Jazz is fly by wire throttle. That would be needed to decide the balance of effort between engine and motor.

If the engine is hesitating then that's where to focus the investigations. What annual mileages does the MOT history show? If only a few thousand miles per year then it's possible that the vehicle spent a lot of time pottering around towns on short trips and the engine has warmed up enough to burn off unwanted deposits. Putting some Redex in the fuel tank plus some long trips might help but the EGR valve etc might need cleaning. See, for example, the end of this discussion https://www.hrvforums.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1184&sid=18ce4d78c069176571af589878c0607e&start=10 .
Title: Re: Acceleration lag
Post by: clivech on February 07, 2020, 11:31:54 PM
The throttle position sensor is a good idea. It feels like it could be a communication lag. It doesn't feel like an engine hesitation, which might be accompanied by a misfire. When the engine gets the message, it goes. But by then it feels like I have accelerated too much (compensating for the lack of response initially) and it goes off with a kick. I wonder how to test the fly-by-wire accelerator system?
Title: Re: Acceleration lag
Post by: Jocko on February 08, 2020, 10:10:55 AM
It is a potentiometer as far as I am aware. Unplug and check as below.
https://www.wikihow.com/Test-a-Potentiometer (https://www.wikihow.com/Test-a-Potentiometer)

Or try your local breakers for a used replacement.
Title: Re: Acceleration lag
Post by: clivech on February 20, 2020, 09:24:56 PM
Ok, so the potentiometer is on the pedal, and apparently it would show up on the diagnostic if there were a fault with it. They refuse to do anything else until I agree to pay £160 to have the fuel filter changed (recommended at 60,000 miles) so they can eliminate that. But the symptoms don't tally with a blocked or partially blocked filter. It's just too erratic, and it would do it all the time if it were a consistent problem like a filter. So I'm back to guesswork. I can get a pedal with potentiometer on eBay for less than £20 (off a scrapper, apparently tested). But I'm just shooting in the dark.
Title: Re: Acceleration lag
Post by: NewJazzyowner on April 03, 2021, 08:38:42 AM
I know it’s been a long time but did you sort this problem out in the end? I have exactly the same issue now by the sound of it.
Title: Re: Acceleration lag
Post by: E27006 on April 17, 2021, 05:24:59 PM
The symptoms are familiar ,  I suspect a faulty EGR valve,  other Honda models had the problem of hesitancy prior to  acceleration and the fix being a new EGR valve, often under Honda warranty.
The problem iof hesitancy is most noticeable after coasting with the foot off the accelerator pedal, then applying accelerator.  The EGR has a potentiometer which is read by the ECU,  when the  EGR potentiometer is failing,  the ECU  has difficulty in reading the EGR signal and hesitates  for a second or so before applying power. 
Title: Re: Acceleration lag
Post by: NewJazzyowner on April 22, 2021, 11:28:31 PM
The symptoms in my car is a delay in starting off. I put my foot down to move away and nothing happens for a second or 2, then we jolt off, as if the oil pressure in the gearbox was building before being high enough to move the car forward. Does this sound logical?
Not sure if the same would be caused by the EGR valve?
Title: Re: Acceleration lag
Post by: E27006 on April 23, 2021, 08:07:13 PM
The symptoms in my car is a delay in starting off. I put my foot down to move away and nothing happens for a second or 2, then we jolt off, as if the oil pressure in the gearbox was building before being high enough to move the car forward. Does this sound logical?
Not sure if the same would be caused by the EGR valve?
If the EGR valve valve has the well-known fault,  it affected not just the Jazz, and was a frequent cause of warranty claims on other models, claims which Honda honoured, the weak part was redesigned PDQ,  you would experience hesitancy on the move,  ie after applying accelerator after a period of foot-off coasting, With the additional description you provide, I tend to  think the EGR is not the culprit, I do recall a magazine article describing the replacement of a defective  Jazz CVT gearbox, the faulty gearbox had a developed a hole in an internal wall of the gearbox casting. Does anyone on the forum know of the source of the article?
Title: Re: Acceleration lag
Post by: Jocko on April 23, 2021, 08:33:42 PM
The symptoms in my car is a delay in starting off. I put my foot down to move away and nothing happens for a second or 2, then we jolt off, as if the oil pressure in the gearbox was building before being high enough to move the car forward.
Have you checked the level of the gearbox oil?
Title: Re: Acceleration lag
Post by: NewJazzyowner on May 03, 2021, 03:24:30 PM
I do keep an eye on the oil level so don't think its that.

Its coming up to 2 years since I last changed the CVT oil so may drop it out and refill, however thanks to Covid its only been in for just over 9k miles. Is it worth it?
Title: Re: Acceleration lag
Post by: NewJazzyowner on May 16, 2021, 03:37:36 PM
Hi all.

Strange one this but having checked the oil this week I find the level when cold is too high (it’s over the top of the ‘high’ mark, but after a 40 minute run - so the oil was hot the level was correct!

How do I work from this? I initially thought great, the oil level must be too high (cold) so that could be the cause of the problem- but surely it can’t be if the level is correct when it’s hot???

Anyone got any further thoughts please?

I have a new gearbox oil filter and oil to do another change in the hope it might help, but.....
Title: Re: Acceleration lag
Post by: Jocko on May 16, 2021, 03:52:46 PM
The oil in a gearbox can drain down into the sump when cold, then once the gearbox is running the oil is thrown around the system so can show as lower on the dipstick. My auto Volvo was checked with the engine running, the oil hot, after cycling through the gears several times.
Title: Re: Acceleration lag
Post by: E27006 on May 18, 2021, 07:04:38 PM
What does the sevice procedure say for the oil change, is the CVT gearbox oil level checked when the  oil is hot or cold? When the car has been standing for a period of time to allow settling?  What does the workshop manual say?
Title: Re: Acceleration lag
Post by: GSX600FMAN on May 21, 2021, 06:05:43 AM
Can I assume that during all this time of problems of the lag that the air filter has been changed or at least looked at? I go through about 2 a year. Also the CVT oil does age with time and not just mileage use, so I’d let it drain as much as you could before filling back up to the plug level. When I change my CVT oil it felt better at pulling off.
Title: Re: Acceleration lag
Post by: E27006 on May 21, 2021, 08:27:38 AM
How about a suggestion of the Torque App which runs  run on a mobile phone together with a bluetooth ELM327 OBD2 unit which plugs into the OBD2 socket,  you are looking at £10 for the ELM 327 from Ebay and Torque lite is free.
Torque app can display things such as the EGR operation , trottle position among many other parameters of the car.
Surely worth a trial of Torque for some DIY  self-diagnostics achieve some progress  on this hesitancy problem
Title: Re: Acceleration lag
Post by: NewJazzyowner on May 23, 2021, 06:33:24 PM
Thanks for the suggestions. I changed the air filter at the same service but will check it. I have an OBD unit for my other car so will look into that as well.

Waiting for some summer weather to do the service - the way things are going I could be waiting a while!!😀
Title: Re: Acceleration lag
Post by: jazzister on June 24, 2021, 09:44:01 PM
A probably stupid question: if you release the brake pedal and wait for the car to start creeping forward on its own, and then press the brake pedal just a little bit to keep the car from moving forward, and then release the brake and push on the gas pedal, does it then start to move as expected, or still with the same delay?