Clubjazz - Honda Jazz & HR-V Forums
Honda Jazz Forums => Honda Jazz Mk1 2002-2008 => Topic started by: nalimugmug on May 30, 2018, 09:19:21 PM
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Hi,
My wifes Jazz 2007, 137000 miles started playing up a few weeks ago, the red charging light would come on/off with a will of its own, finally the car wouldn't start as the battery was low..
Charged the battery up with a bench charger and the car started OK, finally the charging light stayed on permanently, no amount of revving would put the light out, where as before it would put the light out.. I purchased a new alternator and fitted that this afternoon.
Started the car up and saw that the red charging light instantly went out- sorted, or so I thought! Took the car for a short trip up the road and again the charging light came on, returned home, checked the obvious- terminal clamps, drive belt tension- alls OK there. I then put in a brand new battery- started the car, light went out- up the road light back on again.
Alternator is giving in excess of 14 volts with the light out, so the alternator seems to be fine, however I noticed that if the revs drop down to 2000 ish the light will come on, increase the revs to 2500 ish and the light goes out.
Interesting this next bit- with my revs down around the 2000 mark with the light on if I switch on main beam the light goes off, if I then switch off the main beam the light will come on.
Any body any good at Mensa puzzles?
Thanks
Bob
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Modern charging systems are pretty complicated* and can raise and lower charging voltage in response to battery condition and load on the system, but having said that they should not put the fault light on because the voltage is lowered. Are the connection lugs between battery cables and bodywork corroded ? There is a control system that alters the voltage to alternator rotor via slip rings to affect output voltage, I don't know where it lives, but will look at our Haynes manual to see where it is.
*the Ford system will not work properly unless you fit an silver calcium or AGM (absorbed glass mat) battery, many owners have had problems when garage fitted a normal flooded electrolyte battery.
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Hi Culzean,
Thanks for your reply.
You wouldn't be referring to this item would you?
www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GENUINE-HONDA-ELD-ELECTRONIC-LOAD-DETECTOR-CIVIC-CRV-JAZZ-38255-S5A-003-/202068487124
Thanks
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Haynes refers to a 'electrical load detect module (ELD)' and then goes on to say that ultimately everything feeds back to ECM (engine control module) which has the final say over charge voltage. It recommends that you switch all heated mirrors, screens, aircon, fan, headlights etc to load up the system and make sure that alternator maintains a voltage in high 13's low 14's volts at battery terminals (13.8 to 14.5 or so). May be an intermittent or corroded connection or broken wire on ELD causing problem, of maybe it has failed. They say ELD / ECM (ECU) alters charging voltage depending upon outside temperature, engine coolant temp, whether aircon is turned on etc. etc.
looks like the ELD lives in fusebox by the battery. I guess its a solid state 'hall effect' sensor as there does not seem to be any electrical connection between bussbar and module.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hall_effect_sensor
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I guess its a solid state 'hall effect' sensor as there does not seem to be any electrical connection between bussbar and module.
The eBay link photograph shows it as having an electrical connector.
(https://www.tegiwaimports.com/media/catalog/product/g/e/genuine-honda-eld-electronic-load-detector-civic-crv-jazz.jpg)
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I guess its a solid state 'hall effect' sensor as there does not seem to be any electrical connection between bussbar and module.
The eBay link photograph shows it as having an electrical connector.
It needs an electrical connector to send signal to ECM / ECU but if the unit was picking up a voltage drop proportional to current flow directly from bussbar resistance you would have wires directly connected to bussbar, by using solid state non-contact magnetic field sensing hall effect sensing you dispense with the need to have a resistance in the circuit which would cause voltage drop and create other problems.
The magnetic field sensor (the more current flowing the stronger the magnetic field around the bussbar) sits in the plastic moulding as close to bussbar as possible, those connector pins will be for the sensor output signal - they work on very low voltage normally so check and clean the ones on your existing ELD before swapping it out.
Puling the fuses and bussbar out (which is main connection from battery to car) will take power off the whole system (same as removing battery), so make sure you have radio code etc.
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Found this interesting post:
Honda has a dual-mode charging system for US models. When the headlights are
on, or any other combination of things that increases the amp draw through
the system to a certain point, the computer tells the alernator to put out
14.4V, or thereabouts. But at all other times the alternator puts out about
12.3V. This is done to increase gas mileage.
At my last oil change (2012 Civic), the dealer checked out everything,
including the battery. They said the battery was ok, but was only 57%
charged. It seems to me that this is a direct result of the charging
algorithm. Even if the battery was fully charged, which would be a resting
voltage of just under 12.7V, if the alternator is told to output only 12.3V,
then the battery will be providing all the needed current until it is
discharged down to that level, which should happen fairly quickly.
My understanding is that lead-acid batteries don't do well being partially
charged all the time, not to mention not having as many cranking amps
available as you might need. In fact, I replaced the original battery at
just under three years. Yet Honda has been doing this dual-mode thing
literally for decades. So perhaps I'm wrong about the effect of this system
on battery life.
The odd thing is - if you want the car to charge the battery, you DO NOT want
to shut off the lights, the fan, the radio, etc., because that will just
lower the alternator voltage to 12.3V, which won't charge the battery at all.
Instead, you want to turn on the headlights - because that will cause the
alternator to put out 14.4V, which WILL charge the battery. Can you spell
counterintuitive?
So one option is just to get a charger, and charge the battery overnight
maybe once a week. But another alternative is to modify the current-sensing
circuit so the computer thinks the lights are on even when they aren't, so
the alternator will stay at 14.4V all time - just like every other car in the
world does. But before going down that road, I need to be sure I understand
what, if anything, this Honda system is doing to the battery because the
modification, which is called the ELD bypass, is a real bear for my model
car.
And in case you were wondering, it appears that this Honda system doesn't
take into account at all the current charge state of the battery.
Well, I would appreciate some expert opinion on the effects of having the
battery be partially charged all the time. I've read several places online
that this promotes sulfation. But it's not clear. It's also not clear
whether a weekly full charge would undo the sulfation.
Not all appropriate, but may explain some battery issues some Jazz owners report.
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Interesting article, all to save a few fractions of an MPG. This system is not only a Honda thing though, the Ford 'smart charge' system will only work properly with an silver calcium or AGM battery (as many owners have found out when a garage fits a normal battery and they have problems with battery getting flat), which are more rugged and more tolerant of being partly charged as they resist sulphation. Ford say they do it to protect battery from damaging charging under the wrong conditions of temperature (when battery too hot or cold).
https://www.yuasa.co.uk/info/technical/silver-calcium-batteries/
I always use AGM on motorbikes as they have higher cranking amps, resist vibration and have very, very low self-discharge when bike not used and will resist suphation if they are allowed to get down to a low state of charge.
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I have a Ford Fiesta and usually trickle charge the battery once a week. I always measure the battery voltage before I start charging and I have never seen it above 12.5v. I have read that by keeping the battery 80% charged helps to prolong battery life so that may explain why it is never fully charged. Do a search for Battery Management System and you may get more information on this.
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Re Jocko's article on the charging characteristics of the US versions and the need to switch on the headlights in order to force the system into charge mode.
What happens when we use LED headlights with their greatly reduced current load?
Will the system still function?
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Hi,
Thanks to all of you for your input regarding my issue.
I'm pretty sure its an ELD problem, however, im reluctant to fork out £45 for a new part, then fit it and find there is no difference.
Im now on a quest to trawl the breakers yards for a used part and take it from there, ill keep you updated on what happens.
In the meantime the car is being used with the blower on continuously and the battery light remains off.
Some more info here about ELDs.
http://www.gonzostoolbox.com/KnowledgeFolder/HondaELD.html
Thanks again
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Re Jocko's article on the charging characteristics of the US versions and the need to switch on the headlights in order to force the system into charge mode.
What happens when we use LED headlights with their greatly reduced current load?
Will the system still function?
We have LED bulbs in both Civic and Jazz Mk2, no problem with keeping battery charged - in fact sometimes I connect my charger up to check and it switches from charge to trickle in less than 5 minutes.
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Hi,
As promised an update- just back from the pub -so excuse a few typos.
Sent out about half a dozen asks to various breakers, received two finds.
£160 inc postage
£60 inc postage
Cheerio to both , so phoned my local scrapyard, £5, guaranteed to the gate.
Returned home to fit the replacement ELD.
When I removed the item from the breakers car there was about an inch or so of wiring beneath the connecting plug which came up above the fuse box to enable me to push in a clip to allow the ELD to disconnect from the wiring loom connector.
When I removed the original item from my car to install the replacement unit the connector remained well buried down in the fuse box, try with lots of swear words it wasn't possible to get the connector proud enough to be able to connect the new item.
I then drilled a hole down through the fuse box directly beneath the connector to enable me to support the connector from below and then push down to enable the ELD to connect to the connecter. Not pretty but it worked.
Now for the results-
Went up the road- light came on again- so it's not the ELD
To repeat my findings from before, switch something on which loads the system, aircon-blower-headlights, the light remains off.
---
Pubs closed now-off to the fridge-
Any ideas?
Thanks
Bob
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It's a odd one.
I assume you have checked all the basics, particularly that the battery and engine to chassis earth straps are clean and secure? They can cause some odd faults with these adaptive charging systems.
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I assume you have checked all the basics, particularly that the battery and engine to chassis earth straps are clean and secure?
That would be my line of thinking too. Connect a jump lead from the battery negative to the engine metal work and see what effect that has.
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Problematic earths can give weird symptoms. In this case I suspect that the resistance through the light bulb is less than through the earth path when the electrical load is reduced.
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Problematic earths can give weird symptoms. In this case I suspect that the resistance through the light bulb is less than through the earth path when the electrical load is reduced.
Have a look at this thread, as soon as I get a car I fit a braided earth cable direct from battery to engine block, I do not trust the flimsy earth connections that car makers use, which are open to corrosion. Dodgy earths cause more than enough problems on vehicles, anyone remember brake lights that used to flash when indicators were operated, and indicators coming on with brake lights etc. etc.
https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=9612.msg53584#msg53584
there are three pages in the attached PDF in this link
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Hi again,
Many thanks to those that have chimed in with my issue.
Yesterday I checked and rechecked that all the earth points were tight, which they were, today I fitted an earth lead from the battery neg to the engine block as was suggested.
Went up the road- light came on.
Its not the end of the world that I have to switch on something for the light to go out, the less intrusive item to energise is the rear window heater.
The saga continues.
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Seems like it may be a good time to have a chat to an Auto Electrician. Someone who earns a living from working on these sort of problems. I had an issue with the air bag warning light on my Volvo. I went to a local guy who knew immediately what the problem was. He repaired it within the day and the price was most reasonable (even as an OAP). It was the connector to one of the front impact sensors for the static restraint system, a common fault, he told me, though Google hadn't been much help to me.
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Hi again,
Many thanks to those that have chimed in with my issue.
Yesterday I checked and rechecked that all the earth points were tight, which they were, today I fitted an earth lead from the battery neg to the engine block as was suggested.
Went up the road- light came on.
Its not the end of the world that I have to switch on something for the light to go out, the less intrusive item to energise is the rear window heater.
The saga continues.
The extra braid to engine is good to have anyway IMHO.
There are a few sensors involved in charging voltage including ambient temperature, maybe engine temp etc. which feed back to ECU. Origina idea was to limit charging voltage at very low or high temps to prevent battery damage and extend battery life, but as usual when things get too complicated they can be a mare to fix.
Found this article (USA) that kind of explains how complicated a modern battery charging system can be.... http://opensiuc.lib.siu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1011&context=auto_pres
Maybe time to have a look at OBD to see if any sensor faults logged. Is your temperature readout on dash showing correct temperature ?
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Just ordered an OBD tool.
Will let you know what it finds.
Bob
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Culzean,
Forgot to thank you for this.
Found this article (USA) that kind of explains how complicated a modern battery charging system can be.... http://opensiuc.lib.siu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1011&context=auto_pres.
Interesting read
Bob
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Yes an interesting read.
Problem is the more electronics you design into a car to get that extra 1mpg the more there is to go wrong. :(
Is anyone else on here, like me, old enough to remember the only electronics under the bonnet was a Battery, alternator, starter motor, coil, distributor and 4 spark plugs? You could diagnose a problem in 5 minutes LOL!
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I go back even before alternators, back to the days of the old generator.
(https://www.smallfordspares.co.uk/m/products/4/7/1574/105e-10001-b-1.jpg)
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Just about remember those Jocko; not so efficient were they; but I guess did the job. :)
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I go back even before alternators, back to the days of the old generator.
Not only do I remember them, I was working on one a while ago, on a 1956 Land Rover - refurbishing and setting up the old Lucas control box. Owner thought the original dynamo charging system was dead forever, but it's now back in regular use and charging like a good'un.
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Have just plugged in OBD reader-
One code shown- P0304-Cylinder 4 misfire detected.
Cleared this code, drove up the road, as usual battery charge light came on, returned home and checked for codes again- all clear.
Having Googled the above code I cant see anything there that has anything to do with the charging system.
The plot thickens!
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I know this thread is old but I have noticed the same problem with my 2003 jazz.
My dash light does not come on but charge voltage varies as described with the added feature that, when it drops to 12.3v, any throttle input, when driving with no lights/accessories on, keeps charge voltage to 12.3v but as soon as there is no throttle input allows 14.4v.
Could a bad TPS cause this?
More importantly, is there an easy way to bypass the charge system controller to force continuous 14.4v to the battery?
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I know this thread is old but I have noticed the same problem with my 2003 jazz.
My dash light does not come on but charge voltage varies as described with the added feature that, when it drops to 12.3v, any throttle input, when driving with no lights/accessories on, keeps charge voltage to 12.3v but as soon as there is no throttle input allows 14.4v.
Could a bad TPS cause this?
More importantly, is there an easy way to bypass the charge system controller to force continuous 14.4v to the battery?
Try this thread as well
https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=11400.msg75519#msg75519
You do not really want to keep charge voltage at 14.4v as this could damage battery... Try turning lights, heated screen, mirrors on and other loads on and see if this alters the alternator output voltage..
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Bearing in mind many cars will either be sitting idle at this time, or will only be used for relatively short journeys, I think it may be very valuable to be aware of the way a Jazz battery is charged by the alternator.
It seems that to charge the battery, if you are going on only short journeys, the car needs to be run with either the headlights or the heated rear window on!
Otherwise, the alternator will not charge the battery and after successive short journeys there is major risk of a flat battery.
Also, if the car is not used for a couple of weeks and/ or is then used for only short journeys the battery will go flat through lack of charge from the alternator.
So it seems best to use the car regularly with the head lights or heated rear window on (i.e. a high current drain) unless you can use a smart charger on the car whilst it is parked up.
Otherwise in a couple of weeks or so there will be a lot of flat batteries around.
Sounds counter intuitive.
Jocko's post below sets out the principle.
Perhaps someone can explain this better than I have.
Found this interesting post:
Honda has a dual-mode charging system for US models. When the headlights are
on, or any other combination of things that increases the amp draw through
the system to a certain point, the computer tells the alernator to put out
14.4V, or thereabouts. But at all other times the alternator puts out about
12.3V. This is done to increase gas mileage.
At my last oil change (2012 Civic), the dealer checked out everything,
including the battery. They said the battery was ok, but was only 57%
charged. It seems to me that this is a direct result of the charging
algorithm. Even if the battery was fully charged, which would be a resting
voltage of just under 12.7V, if the alternator is told to output only 12.3V,
then the battery will be providing all the needed current until it is
discharged down to that level, which should happen fairly quickly.
My understanding is that lead-acid batteries don't do well being partially
charged all the time, not to mention not having as many cranking amps
available as you might need. In fact, I replaced the original battery at
just under three years. Yet Honda has been doing this dual-mode thing
literally for decades. So perhaps I'm wrong about the effect of this system
on battery life.
The odd thing is - if you want the car to charge the battery, you DO NOT want
to shut off the lights, the fan, the radio, etc., because that will just
lower the alternator voltage to 12.3V, which won't charge the battery at all.
Instead, you want to turn on the headlights - because that will cause the
alternator to put out 14.4V, which WILL charge the battery. Can you spell
counterintuitive?
So one option is just to get a charger, and charge the battery overnight
maybe once a week. But another alternative is to modify the current-sensing
circuit so the computer thinks the lights are on even when they aren't, so
the alternator will stay at 14.4V all time - just like every other car in the
world does. But before going down that road, I need to be sure I understand
what, if anything, this Honda system is doing to the battery because the
modification, which is called the ELD bypass, is a real bear for my model
car.
And in case you were wondering, it appears that this Honda system doesn't
take into account at all the current charge state of the battery.
Well, I would appreciate some expert opinion on the effects of having the
battery be partially charged all the time. I've read several places online
that this promotes sulfation. But it's not clear. It's also not clear
whether a weekly full charge would undo the sulfation.
Not all appropriate, but may explain some battery issues some Jazz owners report.
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Culzean,
Forgot to thank you for this.
Found this article (USA) that kind of explains how complicated a modern battery charging system can be.... http://opensiuc.lib.siu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1011&context=auto_pres.
Interesting read
Bob
For those of a more technical bent.
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I know this thread is old but I have noticed the same problem with my 2003 jazz.
My dash light does not come on but charge voltage varies as described with the added feature that, when it drops to 12.3v, any throttle input, when driving with no lights/accessories on, keeps charge voltage to 12.3v but as soon as there is no throttle input allows 14.4v.
Could a bad TPS cause this?
More importantly, is there an easy way to bypass the charge system controller to force continuous 14.4v to the battery?
Try this thread as well
https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=11400.msg75519#msg75519
You do not really want to keep charge voltage at 14.4v as this could damage battery... Try turning lights, heated screen, mirrors on and other loads on and see if this alters the alternator output voltage..
Thanks... I went ahead & replaced the ELD which was very easy & until yesterday had no further problems.
However, yesterday my battery was flat.
I checked for parasitic drain & something is taking 11ish volts with everything off. I tried removing each fuse in turn, except the screwed in one's, but found no change.
I'm guessing a broken wire?
Sigh!
Checking every wire in that tiny engine bay is going to be a massive pain!
Any suggestions on where to start?
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I recall reading somewhere that it's possible for relays to get stuck and cause parasitic power drain.
See, for example:
https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=9841.15
https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=9841.0
https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=11400.0
https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=10545.0
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I checked for parasitic drain & something is taking 11ish volts with everything off. I tried removing each fuse in turn, except the screwed in one's, but found no change.
Where did you measure the 11volts that you quote ? It sounds as though you are measuring the battery voltage and at 11v that is low with no load on the battery. Have you said how old the battery is ?
Vic.
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Silly question have you fitted a new battery ?
The only way to measure parasitic load is to remove battery clamp and put an ammeter in line with the battery terminal post and the cable you just took off the battery, the drain should be in the mA range ( 1000ths of an amp, 250mA = 1/4 amp ). Normal battery drain with ignition off should be less than 50 to 75mA - obviously the lower the better.
Can't measure leakage in volts.
maybe one of these will help, https://www.ringautomotive.com/en/product/rms7 it has 4 LED lights to show battery voltage - you can get these multi-sockets with up to 4 sockets, which helps if you have satnav etc. I did a link to a Ring one from Halfords with 2 sockets and 2 USB sockets and 4 LED in previous thread that fits in Jazz cup holder, but that link now goes to a normal cup-holder and I cannot find it on Halfords site Grrrrr...
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I checked for parasitic drain & something is taking 11ish volts with everything off. I tried removing each fuse in turn, except the screwed in one's, but found no change.
I'm guessing a broken wire?
Sigh!
Checking every wire in that tiny engine bay is going to be a massive pain!
Any suggestions on where to start?
Going by your post I think it safe to say you have little understanding of vehicle electrics. Save yourself a load of hassle. Fit a new battery and don't mess with what you don't understand. I am not trying to be an @rse, just trying to save you a load of hardship.
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I checked for parasitic drain & something is taking 11ish volts with everything off. I tried removing each fuse in turn, except the screwed in one's, but found no change.
I'm guessing a broken wire?
Sigh!
Checking every wire in that tiny engine bay is going to be a massive pain!
Any suggestions on where to start?
Going by your post I think it safe to say you have little understanding of vehicle electrics. Save yourself a load of hassle. Fit a new battery and don't mess with what you don't understand. I am not trying to be an @rse, just trying to save you a load of hardship.
Haha, that's really helpful, thanks for your input.
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Silly question have you fitted a new battery ?
The only way to measure parasitic load is to remove battery clamp and put an ammeter in line with the battery terminal post and the cable you just took off the battery, the drain should be in the mA range ( 1000ths of an amp, 250mA = 1/4 amp ). Normal battery drain with ignition off should be less than 50 to 75mA - obviously the lower the better.
Can't measure leakage in volts.
maybe one of these will help, https://www.ringautomotive.com/en/product/rms7 it has 4 LED lights to show battery voltage - you can get these multi-sockets with up to 4 sockets, which helps if you have satnav etc. I did a link to a Ring one from Halfords with 2 sockets and 2 USB sockets and 4 LED in previous thread that fits in Jazz cup holder, but that link now goes to a normal cup-holder and I cannot find it on Halfords site Grrrrr...
Yes, I checked with a DMM in series with the battery positive. Amp reading '1' which I think means outside of range (it's a 10amp max DMM). Checked in voltage just to confirm there is an circuit.
Just to be clear, I have fitted a new alternator, battery & ELD in the last 6 months. These all seem to be working as they should except for the battery discharging overnight.
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Did the battery terminal spark when you disconnected it? If it is drawing more than 10 amps it should have done.
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Did the battery terminal spark when you disconnected it? If it is drawing more than 10 amps it should have done.
Yep... I've left it disconnected for now. Bit worried about possible fire if there's a short somewhere.
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It should be possible to measure current without disconnecting the battery lead, by using a clamp on meter, although DC current clamp on meters are quite expensive and are best for higher current applications.
AC Clamp on meters use a split transformer but DC clamp on meters use active sensors.
An example of a clamp on meter can be seen on ebay but this type of meter is probably not actually suitable for lower mA leakage measurements
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/UK-fit-for-Bside-ACM91-1mA-Digital-Clamp-Meter-DC-AC-Current-Volt-Ohm-Multimeter/293298351053?hash=item4449f1abcd:g:7FQAAOSwNNVdtB2n
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With a current that high looks like a relay may be stuck. A relay is a device where you can switch a very small current via a small switch to a magnetic coil ( often 50millamps or such ) and the magnetic coil attracts an armature attached to heavy electrical contacts capable of switching over 40 amps typically. The feed to the coil ( the control signal ) is fed via a small switch on dashboard or on steering wheel stalk and 'relays' the signal to the device you want to operate ( heated screen, headlights, aircon system etc ) - the power to the the switch that operates the relays is fed via the ignition switch, so disappears when ignition is turned off. However the feed to the heavy relay contacts comes straight from battery via a fuse and is still live when ignition is off. The heavy contacts are supposed to be opened with a spring when no power to relay coil, but sometimes the armature sticks and contacts stay closed, this can keep power flowing from battery to the load even with ignition off. Aircon clutch can draw 3 amps, headlights 10 amps, heated screen over 10 amps etc.
You need to locate relays in fusebox and while someone watching the ammeter pull them out one at a time and see if the load drops. Problem is that often the relay will not stick every time but do so occasionally - which makes it pot luck if you can find it - the relays are not normally expensive though and maybe on an older car may be due for replacement anyway as a precaution.
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Thanks culzean,
I had done the old fuse/relay pulling test prior to posting & tried again this morning with no luck but then I noticed my DMM giving a reading of 13+ volts across the battery & remembered that I hadn't changed the DMM internal battery for years. Whoops! I did that later & now it reads correct so when I get a chance I'll try the testing again. I can't park near my house which makes things a bit tricky in the current situation.
Thanks for everyone's suggestions so far :-)
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I checked for parasitic drain & something is taking 11ish volts with everything off. I tried removing each fuse in turn, except the screwed in one's, but found no change.
Thanks,
Yes that Aircon relay is looking more suspicious by the minute.
I'll be checking that again now my DMM is fixed :-)
Where did you measure the 11volts that you quote ? It sounds as though you are measuring the battery voltage and at 11v that is low with no load on the battery. Have you said how old the battery is ?
Vic.
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Well I got a new DMM with a higher amp rating. But in the meantime my radio/clock has stopped working.
Also front washer.
I checked the washer pump wire under load & no voltage. All fuses still fine.
Now there seems to be no battery drain.
I'm guessing the wiper switch has gone bad because a few months back the wipers suddenly stopped until I put them on 'fast', then they were ok again.
Looking at the manual, it seems there is no wiper relay as such, it's all done in the switch.
I've ordered a used switch but my question is...
How do you get the switch out? I see 3 screws in the bottom cowling is there more to it?
Also, what about the airbag, do I have to disconnect it somewhere?
Thanks
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In case anyone wonders...
I replaced the washer/wiper switch (no airbag worries) without a result.
I then disconnected the 2 wires at the front washer pump. This seems to have cured the battery drain problem. I've yet to replace the pump, I just swapped the hoses over with the rear pump so I still get front wash for now, albeit by using the rear wash switch.
I'm guessing the front pump must have an internal short & somehow gets key-off power (seems unlikely). The manual is not very clear regarding the washer/wiper wiring system.
I also now keep headlights on for all journeys which forces the charging to stay at 14v.
Most of my journeys are within 3 miles.