Author Topic: Brexit and the scare mongers  (Read 24869 times)

richardfrost

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Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
« Reply #150 on: March 14, 2018, 09:49:57 AM »
I am in favour of remaining in the EU and working to amend it from within, rather than leaving it and then having to work with it from without.

Having said that I am a remainer and remain so, if this Martin Selmayr cronyist appointment had been made before the referendum, the vote would have been much stronger in favour of Leave. This is shocking!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43366724

culzean

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Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
« Reply #151 on: March 14, 2018, 10:02:30 AM »
I am in favour of remaining in the EU and working to amend it from within, rather than leaving it and then having to work with it from without.

Having said that I am a remainer and remain so, if this Martin Selmayr cronyist appointment had been made before the referendum, the vote would have been much stronger in favour of Leave. This is shocking!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43366724

But that is EU all over, the most powerful people are not elected..... The EU parliament is a sham,  the real power lies with the assembly and its blatant cronyism.

Trying to amend the EU from inside is like trying to herd cats,  we have not been able to do much in over 40 years so I guess 17.4 million thought it was a waste of time and effort.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

JimSh

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Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
« Reply #152 on: March 14, 2018, 11:15:01 AM »
You must have seen signs saying "erected with EU funding"

What I can't understand is why Hull then voted overwhelmingly to leave.


Maybe the signs should read  'erected with a fraction of the money that we have paid into the EU, the fraction that they have seen fit to spend in the UK'  those signs are nothing more than EU propaganda for the gullible.  Most of the money the EU takes in is spent in enlarging the Federal Empire as bribes for joining - a cynical land grab policy.   

The EU is like a Sundew insect trap,  it offers nectar to unsuspecting insects and once they take it they are trapped and get slowly dissolved by the plants juices,  their struggles are futile as they are absorbed into the body of the plant to fuel its growth.

The EU has fires springing up all over,  but they have locked all the fire exits,  we may be able to get out before it is consumed though.

That seems a bit harsh is it not?

I think the purpose of the EU is to promote co-operation between neighbouring nations allowing them to live in peace and harmony.
I could list many advantages of remaining in the EU but could not do it nearly as well as by letting you read the goals of the EU.

https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/eu-in-brief_en

Please feel free to tell me of any of these to which you object.
 (the sections referring to the Euro obviously do not apply)

The most obvious thing that made people live in peace and harmony since 1945 is the atom bomb and NATO,  nothing at all to do with the EU.   But having said that,  Germany has used the EU to achieve what it did not in two world wars, control of Europe and a ready (captive) market for its products.   Reading the glossy brochure of the EU tells people nothing about its real aims,  which is a total political and fiscal union - a Federal Superstate.   I could sort of understand the common market (which was not a bad idea and is what we originally joined) - but our beloved leaders did not deem it necessary to show us the small print,  which was ever tighter political and economic unity and centralised control.  If USA makes good its promise on 'normalising' tariffs between them and the EU,  its gonna be fun.  The EU has long put up barriers to countries wanting to export into it,  they contribute little to NATO and are a customs cartel ( Jeremy Corbyn said their tariffs are a barrier to poorer and developing countries, and even USA by the look of it).

Anyway,  talking of keeping the peace, have a look at Bosnia - the EU stood by while the fire raged and in the end it fell to USA and UK to sort it out - the EU could not even sort out a small scuffle on its border,   Russia must look at 'paper tiger'  Europe with contempt,  and who can blame them.

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/german-military-short-tanks-combat-aircraft-nato-mission/


Hi,
Thanks for getting back to me.
Since you haven't shown any objections to any of the goals in my link I assume either you can find no fault with them or that you haven't bothered to read them.
Can I point out a few places where I disagree with your reply ?

1. Peace has been maintained between the countries in the EU by having a common purpose and by negotiation. Threatening to drop an atom bomb on another European country would be self destructive.

2. Germany has recovered better from the war than some other European countries by dint of hard work and sensible investment in its future. Nobody is forcing anybody to buy German cars or kitchen goods. Germany is not the EU.

3 Where better to read about the EU Goals than on the official website? The Telegraph, Express or Mail?
 
4. I know very little about the Bosnian conflict but to call it a "small scuffle" when it cost about 200000 lives is disingenuous. Many of them killed, I would imagine, by US or UK weapons.
 Perhaps, had the former Yugoslavia been in the EU at the time, things might have been  different.
Military intervention by UK and US does not have a great track record.

5 Russia will have even more contempt for the "paper tiger Europe" when it starts to tear itself to bits.







JimSh

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Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
« Reply #153 on: March 14, 2018, 11:29:02 AM »
I am in favour of remaining in the EU and working to amend it from within, rather than leaving it and then having to work with it from without.

Having said that I am a remainer and remain so, if this Martin Selmayr cronyist appointment had been made before the referendum, the vote would have been much stronger in favour of Leave. This is shocking!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43366724


But that is EU all over, the most powerful people are not elected..... The EU parliament is a sham,  the real power lies with the assembly and its blatant cronyism.

Trying to amend the EU from inside is like trying to herd cats,  we have not been able to do much in over 40 years so I guess 17.4 million thought it was a waste of time and effort.

Perhaps, if we had sent some people who took the job seriously and worked to actually reform the EU rather than just destroy it, there might have been a better outcome.


Jocko

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Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
« Reply #154 on: March 14, 2018, 01:49:16 PM »
Germany has recovered better from the war than some other European countries by dint of hard work and sensible investment in its future. Nobody is forcing anybody to buy German cars or kitchen goods. Germany is not the EU.
Germany's recovery, like Japan's, was due to the money spent in the country by the US, UK (at the detriment of our spending on industry), and other countries. Add to that the fact they were unable to spend huge sums on militarisation and that goes a huge way to explain their success. And as you say "by dint of hard work and sensible investment in its future", but they didn't have a lot of options.

richardfrost

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Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
« Reply #155 on: March 14, 2018, 02:05:57 PM »
Germany has recovered better from the war than some other European countries by dint of hard work and sensible investment in its future. Nobody is forcing anybody to buy German cars or kitchen goods. Germany is not the EU.
Germany's recovery, like Japan's, was due to the money spent in the country by the US, UK (at the detriment of our spending on industry), and other countries. Add to that the fact they were unable to spend huge sums on militarisation and that goes a huge way to explain their success. And as you say "by dint of hard work and sensible investment in its future", but they didn't have a lot of options.

The British reestablished the German car industry, and specifically, Volkswagen, right after the end of the war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Hirst
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2240486/How-British-soldiers-helped-save-VW-car-rescuing-blueprints-bomb-hit-German-factory-1945.html
https://www.volkswagenag.com/presence/konzern/documents/history/englisch/Heft4_EN.pdf

The British endured rationing until 1954, whereas Germany ended rationing in 1950. This was as a direct result of our financial position post war following the end of the Lend Lease arrangement with the USA.

https://www.quora.com/Why-did-rationing-in-the-UK-only-end-in-1954-9-years-after-WW2

I suggest the UK was very much in favour of doing everything possible to support Europe from the 1930s until the Summer of 2016.

What has changed?

We have heavily influenced the EU from within. To say we haven't is to ignore the significant achievements of Thatcher, amongst others, in holding back the rampant drive for a unified European state. Who knows where it would be now if we had not been a member, with our veto and influence, for the last 40 years or so.

Taking our bat home has been a major folly, driven by politicians, ego and xenophobic rhetoric. And now we will be on the edge of Europe unable to influence whatever madcap scheme they come up with next.




JimSh

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Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
« Reply #156 on: March 14, 2018, 02:31:13 PM »


Taking our bat home has been a major folly, driven by politicians, ego and xenophobic rhetoric.




I'm effectively deleting what I posted in reply. Must have been having a senior moment.
I would agree with richardfrost.
Thanks for the links Richard
« Last Edit: March 15, 2018, 10:46:16 AM by JimSh »

JimSh

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Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
« Reply #157 on: March 14, 2018, 03:50:00 PM »
I've just re-read your post and have found another point on which we differ

I suggest the UK was very much in favour of doing everything possible to support Europe from the 1930s until the Summer of 2016.

What has changed?

We have heavily influenced the EU from within. To say we haven't is to ignore the significant achievements of Thatcher, amongst others, in holding back the rampant drive for a unified European state. Who knows where it would be now if we had not been a member, with our veto and influence, for the last 40 years or so.






I would suggest that the UK's positive influence on Europe  ended earlier than that with the election of Nigel Farage and friends whose only political objective was to cause maximum disruption with minimal effort and maximum personal gain.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ukip-meps-attend-the-fewest-european-parliament-votes-of-any-party-in-the-eus-28-countries-10316962.html

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ukip-branded-laziest-political-party-1936913

Note also the comments in the independent article
« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 04:08:36 PM by JimSh »

sparky Paul

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Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
« Reply #158 on: March 14, 2018, 06:55:13 PM »
We have heavily influenced the EU from within. To say we haven't is to ignore the significant achievements of Thatcher, amongst others, in holding back the rampant drive for a unified European state. Who knows where it would be now if we had not been a member, with our veto and influence, for the last 40 years or so.

Taking our bat home has been a major folly, driven by politicians, ego and xenophobic rhetoric. And now we will be on the edge of Europe unable to influence whatever madcap scheme they come up with next.

+1

I don't think that people appreciate the positive influence that the UK has had.

In addition, the EU will no longer have any reason whatsoever to favour the UK in any decision, and that will include any future trade agreement. Who was it who said, "Why would the EU agree to frictionless trade when it can have all of our car factories instead?".

I think the leave voters would put this sort of thing firmly in the 'scaremongering' box, but no matter what other marvellous opportunities we think may become available to us, geography dictates that the EU will never cease to play a significant role in the success or otherwise of the UK economy.

I would suggest that the UK's positive influence on Europe  ended earlier than that with the election of Nigel Farage and friends whose only political objective was to cause maximum disruption with minimal effort and maximum personal gain.

You couldn't blame the rest of the EU for thinking that we had spent the last 10 years trying to rub them up the wrong way.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 07:11:08 PM by sparky Paul »

RichardA

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Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
« Reply #159 on: March 15, 2018, 08:37:00 PM »
I think it's time we drew this discussion to a close. It's already no.8 in our top ten most replied topics!

https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?action=stats

I hope I've picked a good time to lock this topic without prejudiced to either side.

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