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Other Hondas & General Topics => Off Topic (Non-Honda) => Topic started by: Jocko on September 21, 2017, 08:35:15 AM

Title: Fully Charged.
Post by: Jocko on September 21, 2017, 08:35:15 AM
I have become a subscriber to the "Fully Charged" channel on YouTube and was fascinated watching the latest content, from The Renault factory where they make the ZOE. As an engineer, who worked on automated production lines, it never fails to impress me when I see pick and place systems building equipment. Whether it is cars (in this instance) or semiconductor wafers or ink cartridges (in my own experience), the thrill of seeing what engineers can come up with for handling and assembling small parts never fails to amaze me.
A couple of interesting comments from the Renault executives Robert Llewellyn talks to. The first was that the response from customers, delighted with their electric cars (more so than the responses from customers of conventional cars), is driving Renault's commitment to EVs. Secondly, how they didn't expect to be so far on with increasing range by now, but much faster development of their batteries than they expected, has brought that about quicker.
Another thing he spoke about is second use of batteries. Their first generation batteries are good for 10 years in the cars then a further 10 years for storage in buildings and the like.
Title: Re: Fully Charged.
Post by: sparky Paul on September 21, 2017, 08:41:16 AM
I followed a Zoe the other day, looked a perfectly decent little car. It certainly wasn't hanging about either.

I live in a rural area, you don't see many EVs about.
Title: Re: Fully Charged.
Post by: Jocko on September 21, 2017, 08:51:09 AM
There are a wheen of EVs around here, mainly Leafs, a few i3s, but also a surprising number of Tesla Model 3s. Saw a beautiful white Model 3, yesterday.
It appears that with the ZOE you can only hire the battery. Doesn't appeal to me that. If I was buying an EV (fat chance) I'd want to buy the battery outright.
Title: Re: Fully Charged.
Post by: jazzster on September 21, 2017, 01:54:57 PM
the Zoe is available with battery bought they have "i" in front of the spec. eg dynamic becames the idynamic, i have noticed the configurator on their site still give the battery rental which must be a mistake.
Title: Re: Fully Charged.
Post by: guest5079 on September 21, 2017, 02:32:24 PM
Our Hairdresser has a ZOE, it is on lease and the batteries are on a separate lease at £70 per month. The lease expires in December and it will not be renewed. The car has been back to the dealer many times. One time it was the motor ( I appreciate it's more than just a motor as it generates as well as consumes electricity) It appears from the dealer that there was a problem with a part of the motor which was NOT separate and had to go back to France involving a new unit being fitted Cost £500.It seems many cars were affected. They were fortunate that the car was on lease so it was dealer/Renault that picked up the bill.
Another matter was that when the car was ordered they wanted 'quick' charge batteries but recently have found out these are not fitted. Of course the salesman is no longer with the dealer and no paperwork can be found.
Renault might be trying but it seems they must try harder.
Total distance on one charge about 80 miles.
Title: Re: Fully Charged.
Post by: peteo48 on September 21, 2017, 03:48:10 PM
The general feedback from most EV drivers is that they wouldn't go back. That's not universal of course and, on the main on-line EV forum, speakev.com you get the odd tale of regret and is usually predicated on the frankly dreadful charging infrastructure. The charge points - glorified plugs for heavens sake - keep going wrong and there are nowhere near enough of them.

But if you do an honest assessment of your needs even the low range ones can work. I must admit they do seem to have the automatic gearing sussed (in reality it's not a gearbox as such) in that you don't get the horrendous droning you get from CVT boxes when you put them under load.

I've mulled it over and I might go for one but the infrastructure needs to be at least 5 times better than it is. There are whole chunks of the UK where you would be stranded if you used an EV.
Title: Re: Fully Charged.
Post by: culzean on September 21, 2017, 04:17:13 PM
Renault might be trying but it seems they must try harder.

I have seen complaints about the Renault Zoe (and Fluence) forums about 'needing new brushes in the electric motor'  WTF  :o  Don't tell me they use low tech brush commutator motors (the kind of motor you find in a Black and Decker battery powered hand drill) for propulsion - Brushless AC (induction motor)have been around for ever,  and brushless DC motors have been around for many, many years in industry in robots and large drives,  and even domestic appliances like washing machines - and they are used mainly because they are very controllable, reliable and don't need much in the way of maintenance - perfect for EV, the downside is that the control gear is more sophisticated which normally means higher cost.

I don't know if latest Renault EV use brushed motors, I certainly hope not.
Title: Re: Fully Charged.
Post by: culzean on September 21, 2017, 04:59:32 PM
usually predicated on the frankly dreadful charging infrastructure. The charge points - glorified plugs for heavens sake - keep going wrong and there are nowhere near enough of them.

I've mulled it over and I might go for one but the infrastructure needs to be at least 5 times better than it is. There are whole chunks of the UK where you would be stranded if you used an EV.

Problem is, charging points are in corners of car parks and services etc and not supervised like fuel pumps are on filling stations,  they are a bit like the old phone boxes and are wide open to misuse and vandalism. It was always going to be charging infrastructure that let EV down and make people wary of getting too far from home and relying on something that either may not be there,  or if it is there it may not be in working condition.  If people will steal lead from church roofs or copper pipe and electric cables from hospital emergency generators then EV charging points will be well within their scope.
Title: Re: Fully Charged.
Post by: Jocko on September 21, 2017, 05:25:24 PM
I was trying to find information about brushes on Renault EVs but can find nothing other than a bit on a Fluence not starting and needing the brushes replaced. Fluence was also available with ICE and from reading the post it seems like it was a starter motor. Can you post a link to what you were reading or at least what site you were on?
Title: Re: Fully Charged.
Post by: sparky Paul on September 21, 2017, 06:00:51 PM
Our Hairdresser has a ZOE...
...The car has been back to the dealer many times.

The problem is that it's a Renault.

Don't get me wrong, they make attractive comfortable cars, but there is always something going wrong. We had a Clio for a few years, all the little electrical foibles I could cope with, but that wet liner engine was a complete pile of poo.

Add in some complex new technology, and you really are asking for trouble.
Title: Re: Fully Charged.
Post by: Jocko on September 21, 2017, 06:07:56 PM
I have searched everywhere and cannot find anything about brushes in traction motors. Found tons about failures, charging issues, poor dealer service, bad attitude, 12v batteries not charging, and a couple of traction motor failures requiring the motors to be replaced.
Just sounds like a typical Renault to me.
Title: Re: Fully Charged.
Post by: sparky Paul on September 21, 2017, 06:16:34 PM
As far as I know, all of these EVs use synchronous AC motors with inverter drives, no brushes.
Title: Re: Fully Charged.
Post by: culzean on September 21, 2017, 07:07:32 PM
http://www.renaultzeforum.com/forums/archive/index.php/thread-9625.html
http://www.renaultzeforum.com/forums/Thread-New-Motor-Required

Title: Re: Fully Charged.
Post by: Jocko on September 21, 2017, 07:54:12 PM
I read both these threads, but on reading through it certainly refers to motor failures, no doubt, but "brushes" appear to be layman's opinions and never actually diagnosed as such. I could be wrong, but I am pretty certain that all traction motors in modern EVs are AC Induction motors.
The Renault ZOE has a 4 year 100,000 mile warranty. A DC motor would NEVER last that long without the brushes failing. We had similar sized motors when I worked at Brand Rex, and the brushes needed changed every 6 month, without fail. No manufacturer would give such a warranty on a 90 hp, high duty, DC motor.
Title: Re: Fully Charged.
Post by: culzean on September 21, 2017, 08:56:01 PM
I read both these threads, but on reading through it certainly refers to motor failures, no doubt, but "brushes" appear to be layman's opinions

To a layman a 'brush' would be a thing with bristles that is used to sweep up in the garden or something to apply paint with.
Title: Re: Fully Charged.
Post by: guest5079 on September 22, 2017, 03:08:24 PM
I have asked our Hairdresser if she knows what part went wrong. Her husband is well clued up but the dealer was cagey. The motor, I believe and the experts will be able to educate me, both drives, charges and brakes the vehicle. It seems the part that failed is relatively cheap BUT it is not available to anyone except Renault and so the ' motor' for want of a better name has to be returned to France for attention. Even if there is a four year warranty, there is still the inconvenience of being sans motor. Unless Renault ensures their dealers have a spare or one is available quickly.
We can build computers to last or fail which applies to anything 'electric' isn't it about time the various industries sorted themselves out and market their product AFTER they have sorted the problems.
Presumably the technology is not complicated by modern day standards so why can't they get it right BUT then if Renault can't even produce a decent internal combustion engine now then why are they selling electric ones. I had a Renault 18 it was reliable and when I sold it, had 118,000 miles on the clock, used no oil and  original clutch, the killer was the good old French specialty, RUST. A Citroen ZX Volcane,my Wife's favourite went like stink BUT succombed to good old rust.
Title: Re: Fully Charged.
Post by: Jocko on September 22, 2017, 04:20:02 PM
I have only had one French car in 50 years motoring. A Peugeot 504. So comfortable and a heap of garbage. The only car I have ever had where the dipstick rusted! I had a mate who had been a Peugeot mechanic and he said they were all like that. Engine developed more condensation than power.
I remember going to Peugeot dealer to buy brake parts. I had the chassis number, engine number and VIN number, but they were no use. Parts manager told me that they were always going on strike, so the would fit Girling parts today, Delco parts tomorrow, half and half the day after, then something else entirely the day after that. He told me to take the bits off, take them up to him and he would see what he could do.
Eventually the dipstick wasn't the only thing to rust away. Then a Glasgow taxi ran up my rear as I was sitting waiting to turn right at a set of lights. Still managed to sell it on though!
(https://i.imgur.com/NQwKymT.jpg)
Title: Re: Fully Charged.
Post by: guest5079 on September 23, 2017, 11:03:14 AM
Both of our French cars were comfortable and economical. The Volcane was a little goer but had consistent electrical problems. Nothing major but very annoying. Not helped by an unhelpful local dealer.
As to trying to buy parts I am mindful of a BL dealer in Truro where i was trying to buy a part for our Rover 2000TC. I was behind a customer that had a fairly new BL 1300. Like Jocko says, the customer was armed with chassis number, part description etc. The storeman ( that's what they were called then and most knew their subject) tried to explain that unless the car was outside the part had to be identified visually. It wasn't it had broken down, all the info the customer had was useless as at that time with the constant problems in the car industry,BL would just get what they could and fit it, even the time of day was important. I suppose we should be grateful that the days of Red Robo have gone. Still so has BL.
Title: Re: Fully Charged.
Post by: Jocko on September 23, 2017, 08:54:42 PM
I remember going in for parts for my Austin 1800. As i told the storeman what I wan ted he quoted the part number from off the top of his head, wrote the numbers down, then went an got the parts for me. About 6 items in all. Best parts department experience I ever had. Our guys at TMS are good,but that storeman was brilliant.
Title: Re: Fully Charged.
Post by: Jocko on October 27, 2017, 07:54:32 PM
The latest episode of Fully Charged features Carol Vorderman talking about EVs, engineering and the future as she sees it developing. Well worth a watch, especially if you are a red blooded male male!
Title: Re: Fully Charged.
Post by: Jocko on March 04, 2018, 10:31:45 AM
Fascinating insight into the forthcoming moon exploration and the Audi Lunar Quattros. I never realised you could 3D print in aluminium!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E96Z6R1Gd8M&feature=push-u-sub&attr_tag=aZS1cjVefvpuUIMh-6 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E96Z6R1Gd8M&feature=push-u-sub&attr_tag=aZS1cjVefvpuUIMh-6)
Title: Re: Fully Charged.
Post by: Jocko on April 15, 2018, 03:41:16 PM