Unfortunately @BigT hasn't yet posted the photos with the exact error messages.
So we are limited to idle speculation.
What was wrong with the decades old, reliable, servo assisted hydraulic brakesI can recall plenty of diy articles etc about repairing old type servos and braking systems. Less complex maybe but not infallible.
These fancy systems seem unreliable to me
The problem seems not to be limited to Jazzes: :o
https://www.crvownersclub.com/threads/brake-feel-simulator.230382/ (https://www.crvownersclub.com/threads/brake-feel-simulator.230382/)
What was wrong with the decades old, reliable, servo assisted hydraulic brakesI can recall plenty of diy articles etc about repairing old type servos and braking systems. Less complex maybe but not infallible.
These fancy systems seem unreliable to me
Fewer post to say "'Nothing has happened and I love the car".
Fewer post to say "'Nothing has happened and I love the car".
Okay, here's one: Nothing has happened and I love the car! (except for that non-height adjustable passenger seat).
Fewer post to say "'Nothing has happened and I love the car".
Okay, here's one: Nothing has happened and I love the car! (except for that non-height adjustable passenger seat).
Me to ;D ;D
Fewer post to say "'Nothing has happened and I love the car".
Okay, here's one: Nothing has happened and I love the car! (except for that non-height adjustable passenger seat).
Me to ;D ;D
In case you are wondering what the purpose of a "brake feel simulator" is and how it works, I've found this presentation:Thanks. It's even more complicated than I thought.
(direct download link to pdf) https://opensiuc.lib.siu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1005&context=auto_pres (https://opensiuc.lib.siu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1005&context=auto_pres)
Short: There is more to a hybrid braking system than meets the eye!
If you apply the electronic handbrake when moving it stops you immediately with a big jolt. I’ve tried it at 5mph slowing down coming to traffic lights
As per the owners manual:
As per the owners manual:Thanks Steve_M!
I quickly found I could control the amount of braking quite effectively just by varying how much I was pulling on the switch. Not something you should do habitually of course as you are not in complete control of the steering etc, but I would recommend trying it out somewhere quiet.
;)
I didnt mean for normal use of the handbrake when you are stopped. For that I have always found my standard 'flick 'the handbrake will stay on and hold the car however steep the hill. I dont know if you can apply it any 'harder'.
I quickly found I could control the amount of braking quite effectively just by varying how much I was pulling on the switch. Not something you should do habitually of course as you are not in complete control of the steering etc, but I would recommend trying it out somewhere quiet.
;)
Now I’m confused, I was under the impression that the handbrake switch was simply a spring loaded on/off switch, with no means of varying the amount of braking effect.
I have my handbrake set to auto release, when moving off and in normal driving, use it when I’m likely to be stopped for some time, ie traffic lights etc.
So , how do I vary the amount of handbrake effort under those conditions?
Until now I have de rusted my discs using the footbrake. But this may be a better way.
It wont be many years before grandchildren will look at a manual handbrake with bewilderment ;D
What was wrong with the decades old, reliable, servo assisted hydraulic brakesI can recall plenty of diy articles etc about repairing old type servos and braking systems. Less complex maybe but not infallible.
These fancy systems seem unreliable to me
You omitted to add:
"and the cables had to be adjusted regularly.."
My first car was a 1929 Riley 9 Monaco with cable bakes.
I remember when cars had a mechanical connection between the brakes and your foot, some just had a cable which would break on occasion. Didn't make them anymore reliable but maybe a bit cheaper to repair and lot of repairs and servicing you could do yourself.
What was wrong with the decades old, reliable, servo assisted hydraulic brakes
These fancy systems seem unreliable to me
I am surprised there isn’t more interest on the Forum about this subject. From what I understand it seems to be cars over 3 years old that are experiencing the fault and some low mileage ones too so looks like it is either age related (slow deterioration of the affected part) or batch related which is what the translation of the Japanese website suggests.
My Crosstar will be 3 years old in June and I believe it was manufactured in January 2021.
Do I have a suspect brake simulator in my car? Will it fail at some point in the future and if so will the car be off the road for 3 to 5 months waiting for replacement parts?
This is my first Honda and I know there are a lot of loyal Honda folk here. I like my car but this major brake failure and the inability of Honda to fix it in under 3 months makes me wonder about the brand and whether going forward (even with the purchase of an extended warranty) I want to take that risk. As the car approaches 3 years old in June, maybe I should think of changing.
Evening.
I joined this Forum today in the hope of finding out more about what has been described on here as the dashboard lighting up like Christmas and the brakes failing. This has happened to me (60yo F and not a Motorhead).
My Jazz is a 2020 Crosstar - 3 years & 8 months old with less than 7K mileage. I bought the car in February 2022 with less than 1K mileage.
I had a recovery truck take the Jazz to my Honda Dealer today and received a phone call this afternoon to say it was “brake simulator failure” and that repair would be £1797.34 if they could get the part. He anticipated mid April as there were none in the UK or Europe. After reading previous posts, I won’t hold my breath on this delivery date.
The Honda Technician basically said I was out of warranty (obviously the first owner didn’t take out the extended warranty and I was never offered it). So now, like others on here, I don’t have a car, haven’t been offered a courtesy car and have a hefty bill. Any suggestions? I assume they won’t order the part until I pay up?
This problem seems to be far more common that the Dealership realises and isn’t just the Jazz.
Is this a safety issue? Should I just take the hit or argue that a less than 4 year old car with less than 7K on the clock really shouldn’t have a failure such as this?
I joined this Forum today in the hope of finding out more about what has been described on here as the dashboard lighting up like Christmas and the brakes failing. This has happened to me (60yo F and not a Motorhead).Welcome to the forum!
I had a recovery truck take the Jazz to my Honda Dealer today and received a phone call this afternoon to say it was “brake simulator failure” and that repair would be £1797.34 if they could get the part. He anticipated mid April as there were none in the UK or Europe. After reading previous posts, I won’t hold my breath on this delivery date.
I agree.
What he posted seems to be proof that Honda is aware that something was amiss with the brake simulator for the cars manufactured in the periods mentioned:
July 2, 2018 - March 1, 2020
(Total 525,568 units)
※This case was reported for improvement measures at the notification number "661" dated March 31, 2020, but since a new cause has been found, the improvement content will be changed and notified again.
※Part of the scope includes vehicles that are not subject to renovation.
Half a million cars with this kind of fault is nothing to sneeze at!
Even Max Verstappen experienced a braking problem! So now there will be more attention :P
I have just discovered this forum since I also appear to have the brake problem with my Jazz eHEV which is 3.5 years old with just under 9K mileage. When I started up yesterday I got the “Christmas tree” lights effect on the display which was flashing between ES and EP with 2 red circles around the letters. When I tried moving the car I noticed the brakes were very spongey and after driving the car a few yards I got a red Stop signal. I put the car back in my parking slot and phoned my local Honda dealer who informed me that the earliest they could take the car in for a diagnostic check would be Wed 3rd April. My 3 year warranty expired in Sep 23 so I guess I am in for a big hit financially. I will post the result of the diagnostic check as soon as I have it.
I have just discovered this forum since I also appear to have the brake problem with my Jazz eHEV which is 3.5 years old with just under 9K mileage. When I started up yesterday I got the “Christmas tree” lights effect on the display which was flashing between ES and EP with 2 red circles around the letters. When I tried moving the car I noticed the brakes were very spongey and after driving the car a few yards I got a red Stop signal. I put the car back in my parking slot and phoned my local Honda dealer who informed me that the earliest they could take the car in for a diagnostic check would be Wed 3rd April. My 3 year warranty expired in Sep 23 so I guess I am in for a big hit financially. I will post the result of the diagnostic check as soon as I have it.
This is a very concerning thread, since it was started a couple of months ago.
When I bought my EX model, one year and ten months ago, I was fortunate in taking advantage, of the five year guarantee and servicing, if I took out the Honda finance deal for a minimum of six months.
Am I correct in thinking, that this brake simulator, will be covered for the full five years, for those fortunate enough to have had the finance deal package in place?
Still think this is a brilliant car though!
If you check your car's VIN (chassis) number against the list on page 4 of this thread you can be certain one way or the other (unfortunately my Crosstar is on the list)I have just discovered this forum since I also appear to have the brake problem with my Jazz eHEV which is 3.5 years old with just under 9K mileage. When I started up yesterday I got the “Christmas tree” lights effect on the display which was flashing between ES and EP with 2 red circles around the letters. When I tried moving the car I noticed the brakes were very spongey and after driving the car a few yards I got a red Stop signal. I put the car back in my parking slot and phoned my local Honda dealer who informed me that the earliest they could take the car in for a diagnostic check would be Wed 3rd April. My 3 year warranty expired in Sep 23 so I guess I am in for a big hit financially. I will post the result of the diagnostic check as soon as I have it.
This is a very concerning thread, since it was started a couple of months ago.
When I bought my EX model, one year and ten months ago, I was fortunate in taking advantage, of the five year guarantee and servicing, if I took out the Honda finance deal for a minimum of six months.
Am I correct in thinking, that this brake simulator, will be covered for the full five years, for those fortunate enough to have had the finance deal package in place?
Still think this is a brilliant car though!
I too find it a tad concerning and similarly to you, my car is 1 year 6 months old. However, it was pointed out earlier in the thread that this simulator was a known (by Honda) fault, and was restricted to cars manufactured in a certain timescale during 2020. So hopefully we are ok.
As unfortunate as these instances are, I'm also a member of the Mazda CX-60 forum on Facebook. To say that the CX-60 is an utter ********** show in terms of reliability is an understatement. Early adopters have been saddled with a plethora of problems. There are currently more than 10 TSBs to address serious issues - such as sticky steering, transmission shock (juddering), rear suspension / front suspension problems, camera failures (which result in the vehicle slamming on the brakes for ghost vehicles etc, etc). I'd say that, at a guess, most owners have at least 5 issues, with some experiencing 20+ (to the point that countless owners are trying to reject their vehicles). And this was Mazda's so called attempt at luxury!!
So, in comparison, the Mk4 Jazz is reliable as they come. Yes, the brake failure one is expensive. And I sympathize with owners who have had that issue :( But let's put things into perspective! I think us Honda owners are spoilt sometimes ;-)
I don’t follow the logic of this post. Just because there is another model of car with numerous faults does not mean that the problem with the brake failure with the Jazz eHEV models is not serious. It renders the car undriveable and the time off road and cost of repair is unacceptable for a low milesge vehicle that is only a few years old.
I am a bit confused by the chassis numbers on the list on page 4. They show 7 digits. My car appears to end in 6 digits 2021**
If I ignore the first digit this appears to put my car within the GR3 1200001 -GR3 1218092
May21 3rd year of Reiwa (21 may 2021) to 2 Feb 4th year of Reiwa (2 feb 2022) which is about right as the car was delivered in October 2021.
Is this correct?
I am a bit confused by the chassis numbers on the list on page 4. They show 7 digits. My car appears to end in 6 digits 2021**
If I ignore the first digit this appears to put my car within the GR3 1200001 -GR3 1218092
May21 3rd year of Reiwa (21 may 2021) to 2 Feb 4th year of Reiwa (2 feb 2022) which is about right as the car was delivered in October 2021.
Is this correct?
It might be that the 7 digits are referring to the engine number, as the brake servo is bolted onto the engine (on the backside).
My 2022 Jazz has engine number GR3-LEB8-3102084 , condensed to GR3-3102084 there is no match in the list.
I guess the Honda dealer or importer should know what the 7 digits are referring to.
I certainly would not buy a car with that fault. Period.
If the manufacturer does not resolve it free of charge, I will never buy another Honda.
And not having repair kits available for a common fault is disgusting.
UK consumer law is quite clear on this issue with cars..
Honda should be ashamed of their actions or lack of them.
I certainly would not buy a car with that fault. Period.
If the manufacturer does not resolve it free of charge, I will never buy another Honda.
And not having repair kits available for a common fault is disgusting.
UK consumer law is quite clear on this issue with cars..
Honda should be ashamed of their actions or lack of them.
Maybe its because the fault is only now appearing. It seems to be an age related, rather than mileage related issue. Cars reaching the 3.5 year old period, and by all accounts limited to a batch. I would hope that as I type, Honda are already in the throes of acquiring this part, and are waiting for dealers to start saying their customers are getting angry. I would then hope, that rather a damaging deluge of complaints about driving safety standards, that the matter will be dealt with quietly and calmly in the favour of the customer.
My update from the dealer this afternoon.As soon as my car is diagnosed I will take the same actions as above. The more complaints Honda receive will hopefully make them take action to avoid adverse publicity which is bound to happen unless they fix this problem soon.
As expected it is the Brake Simulator. They have contacted Honda who have agreed to contribute just over £400 towards the part which costs £1428.35 (inc Vat) but the final bill would still be at least £1300 with labour. To be fair the Dealer is very supportive and agrees with me that this is far from ideal.
I have phoned Honda UK Customer Service and politely told them the situation (with many similar faults with other customers and with the Japanese recall ). I have emphasised that such a part which is faulty and could cause an accident with a brake failure is not up to what I had believed Honda standards to be. Indeed it is so dangerous that there needs to be a recall immediately. Furthermore, I and other customers should not have to pay. They are expected to come back to me by the end of next week with an answer from higher up.
My current dealer has checked with one of its other dealers and they have had 6 similar failures on the Honda E and Jazz in the last few weeks.
I feel that other customers should also contact Honda UK by phone or email if they haven't already and be prepared to follow through with various consumer groups. The simulator on these faulty cars is obviously not fit for purpose. This fault may well be putting many customers unknowingly in considerable danger and the right thing to do is for Honda to make it public. Good customer service means putting things right as soon as possible. Lets hope Honda does something very quickly. My dealer has ordered the part and possible delivery date may be by the 15th April. I will update when I have further information from Honda or my dealer.
I will be extremely surprised Chis52 if your problem is not the Brake Simulator and I'm sure you will let them know about all the other examples - assuming they are not aware already. Hope they are as supportive as my dealer seems to be, although of course that is not enough at present, and it looks like we may need further action than just supportive dealers.
As Cobb2 implies this absolutely should be a recall and I guess the only reason it hasn't been is that it will be ruinously expensive for Honda as it's clearly not just the Jazz that's affected.I suspect that the real cost of the problem part and the labour to replace it is much less than the cost that people have been quoted. I suspect that Honda are still trying to figure out the extent that the potential problem will become a real problem and also how much boost the production of the appropriate part. Just-in-time manufacturing isn't geared up for a sudden increase in demand for a part. Nonetheless, there appears to be tardiness in Honda Japan telling Honda Europe / UK to be prepared for this. Any problem is potentially reputation damaging, but this can be largely mitigated by promptly applying a fix with minimum inconvenience to owners.
. Apparently Honda have been the main shareholder in Nissin, not sure if they still are, but there is an interesting Wikipedia page on them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissin_Kogyo#
From the excellent post on page 4 (by FMIB) it appears this issue only arose with model years 2019/20 ?
Welcome to our forum Spodric.
2.4 hours repair time is fine, but will the dealer have the part in stock, or will you have to wait a month?
Just sayin’.
If we had some US States consumer law, this debate would be unnecessary.
Getting quite concerned now, 2020 plate and low mileage seems to be a common fault now.
Only one year left of guarantee so if it goes wrong it will hopefully be within this time.
Hi All.
First of all thanks for all advice and comments.
I notice that since my post there have been more joining the “Brake Failure Club”.
My update is that, through the Dealership, I have been offered £444 by Honda UK as a goodwill gesture and the part will (supposedly) be here on the 19th April.
I have the phone number for Honda UK Customer Relations and will be phoning them regarding this issue. I will also request an email address so that I can confirm these issues in writing.
I saw a bit of The One Show tonight which now incorporates Watchdog. They said to contact them with problems both big and small. This could be a starting point to draw attention to this Honda failure.
My biggest concern at the moment is that my car is sitting in the Dealership carpark deteriorating. They have assured me that it will be fine, but how can it? I also asked what the guarantee/warranty would be on this new part and they didn’t seem to think that there would be one!
How many more before a Recall!
This might be a good start point to highlight the issue for a potential recall
https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-recalls-and-faults/report-a-serious-safety-defect
Hi All.
First of all thanks for all advice and comments.
I notice that since my post there have been more joining the “Brake Failure Club”.
My update is that, through the Dealership, I have been offered £444 by Honda UK as a goodwill gesture and the part will (supposedly) be here on the 19th April.
I have the phone number for Honda UK Customer Relations and will be phoning them regarding this issue. I will also request an email address so that I can confirm these issues in writing.
I saw a bit of The One Show tonight which now incorporates Watchdog. They said to contact them with problems both big and small. This could be a starting point to draw attention to this Honda failure.
My biggest concern at the moment is that my car is sitting in the Dealership carpark deteriorating. They have assured me that it will be fine, but how can it? I also asked what the guarantee/warranty would be on this new part and they didn’t seem to think that there would be one!
How many more before a Recall!
May be a different issue but see
https://thebrakereport.com/honda-to-recall-chinese-hybrids-for-faulty-brake-pedal-sensor/
Google also found a brake simulator recall on Honda Malaysia but I can't access the text
The China report is dated December 2022, the Japan one is December 2023. The similarity may reinforce the suggestion of a systematic problem - assuming the same component manufacturer.
I have the Honda UK email address and suggest that everyone effected by this brake problem write a long, informative email.I found it this morning so I have backed up my letter with an email as well. I agree that if more people contact Honda UK it may help.
info.UK.car@honda-eu.com
The more, the better!
Just saw this in case its the same issue :o
https://www.hondaeforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1568&sid=7128ad47c3df833ab35978eefa9ee360&fbclid=IwAR1uOwhQVSytjN15jZ85Cr_fjSUUZBpZmawvDyFJHM51WS4CJaWFCG6BETc_aem_AWlqsPi_rYR7al6dscc1LWnG106c8hGYOf5--WAzh1M69_9kHuckk1gYfHw9WoZ61I8gvzTQGO7wSfGR55PgoAsv
Wow Spodric! For 2 reasons -
The first being the hire care frustration where they can dictate whatever suits them and there’s not a lot we can do about it til later. My sympathies. I am fortunate that we have a second car: my husband is still driving our 2002 Honda Jazz SE which has never caused any problems over the last 20+ years. ;D
The second being, if this is the same problem affecting myself and others on here, that the part will arrive in 72 hours! I honestly hope this is the case for you. It seems to indicate that the part is available when I have been told it isn’t.
Good Luck
…. HUK who are "under extreme pressure to recall these cars".
Small claims court for me if mine goes this way, ...Anyone considering any sort of legal action to recoup their costs should ensure they get the failed component(s) back after the repair. And get an independent technical expert to examine them to establish the root cause of the failure.
...
Yesterday I received a call from the owner of the dealership, who I have never met. He told me that he had heard I was an unhappy customer, asked for brief deatils of the issues and then stated that I was now banned, together with my car, from ever going to any of the Honda dealerships he owns in the local area. Total call time - less than 5 minutes.
...
I am amazed by the attitude of Honda in demanding payment for the replacement of a part so fundamental to vehicle safety . As my Jazz is still waiting the delivery of its replacement wiring loom I shall see how it goes once repaired . It’s been standing at dealers since end of feb so see what issues that causes . The 3 year warranty expires end of august so if it’s trouble free I will extend the warranty for two years . Any gremlins whatsoever and I will be trading for a Toyota hybrid with a 10 year warranty .
Tinny's post about being banned is gobsmackingly awful. Getting legal advice on suing that Honda dealer would be my next move. The dealer deserves it.
Update:
I had to chase them because they are not keeping me informed, but Bath Honda told me today they haven't received the part that was due yesterday. It is now looking like Tuesday next week before they will receive it. The repair of my Jazz will get "priority" as soon as they have the part. Why am I not going to hold my breath ...?
Meanwhile I have extended my car hire until next Wednesday. It is difficult to keep track of the hire cost over the phone, but I estimate that I have racked up over £700 so far.
And so they should ! Its crazy to think Honda can try and side step such an issue in tbe first place ! Given the ever increasing complexity of cars manufucters must realise owners wont tolerate crazy unexpected awesome bills for parts that should last the majority of a cars normal life . Honda are falling behind rapidly as the likes of Kia are offering hybrid tech with 7 year 100k warrantry supported by enthusiatic dealers . And its not down to how much you spend as our local dacia dealer gives great customer care according to neighbours driving their cars .
It has been mentioned, that a brake fluid change at the service interval, has triggered this fault. Is that the case, or has a different picture emerged?
It’s good to know that my 22 registered car will be covered, but what are the newest cars affected?
Nomis, will you mention this to the Honda dealer?
I think we would all be interested to hear their response.
When my next service is due, it's third, in August, I'm considering going back to Crown Honda for it if it entails a brake fluid changeYou are wise to steer clear of the Honda dealer in Reading (Marshalls). The servicing department rarely bother to answer the phone and cannot be relied upon to pass messages. I ended up going to the dealer in Maidenhead to fix my brake fault.
My nearest dealer is Reading but I've read some worrying reviews about this dealer on various forums with them being less than helpful when problems arise ..... unless you're paying
Just glad I've been a Which? Legal member for years. Used them a couple of times and they are good with consumer problems
I thought you can access your service record online now, especially if you have a newer model with no service bookThat's exactly what the dealer has told me.
You need to have or create a Honda account.
You need to have or create a Honda account.
I find it quite strange how Honda sees fit to inflict different rules on its customers!
In Switzerland https://www.de.honda.ch/services/dsr works completely free from any account (I do not know quite yet if this actually is an advantage as the VIN is visible for anyone getting close enough to the vehicule).
So any random person can read the car's VIN and find out it's service history?
Your Digital Service record can be checked here: https://www.honda.co.uk/cars/owners/digital-service-record.html
You need to have or create a Honda account.
If honda are paying for tbe replacement defective part then the non delivery of that part is causing the need to hire a replacement. Simple Honda should pay if that delay is weeks and weeks . You cant buy the part elsewhere .My dealer would provide a courtesy car under such circumstances even if Honda Uk wont ! Thats why the family owned dealers keep their valued customers !! You absolutely wouldnt get this treatment with toyota or lexus !I agree that a good dealer would and should look after you. However as already mentioned on here, it would appear that Toyota/Lexus are saints. They are not, and a visit to their forums will confirm. I have had Lexus for years and the same criteria as above apply, some dealers are good others aren’t and they experience very similar issues, including angry forum members.
Absolutely agree with the variable standard of dealers, irrespective of car manufacturer. However, a major point with this brake failure is it is occurring just outside the standard Honda 3 year warranty and from numerous posts it seems Honda certainly at first see this as a customer problem not theirs. I believe that provided they service your car regularly, Toyota provide a ten year warranty which is a definite plus.If honda are paying for tbe replacement defective part then the non delivery of that part is causing the need to hire a replacement. Simple Honda should pay if that delay is weeks and weeks . You cant buy the part elsewhere .My dealer would provide a courtesy car under such circumstances even if Honda Uk wont ! Thats why the family owned dealers keep their valued customers !! You absolutely wouldnt get this treatment with toyota or lexus !I agree that a good dealer would and should look after you. However as already mentioned on here, it would appear that Toyota/Lexus are saints. They are not, and a visit to their forums will confirm. I have had Lexus for years and the same criteria as above apply, some dealers are good others aren’t and they experience very similar issues, including angry forum members.
The Toyota 10 year warranty is not free but paid on top of the service charge.
The Toyota 10 year warranty is not free but paid on top of the service charge.
There is no extra charge for the Toyota warranty extension. So long as you get the car serviced at the appropriate time, another year gets added on. Not sure what you mean by 'paid on top of the service charge'.