Author Topic: Electric cars  (Read 694680 times)

JimSh

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2250 on: May 26, 2021, 01:05:33 PM »
Using cars as portable power packs involve huge privacy issues : tracking where you stopped etc, ensuring your account is not hacked, ensuring your account is credited with correct amounts etc.
As the industry cannot agree a standardised connection system, it is going to take decades.
Why would that be any more privacy-invading than credit or debit cards?

I envisage it mainly as for home use. Charge at cheap rate overnight. Use some unneeded energy during the day for domestic use. Sell excess to grid.
Rinse and repeat.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2021, 01:19:32 PM by JimSh »

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2251 on: May 26, 2021, 01:53:33 PM »
Using cars as portable power packs involve huge privacy issues : tracking where you stopped etc, ensuring your account is not hacked, ensuring your account is credited with correct amounts etc.
As the industry cannot agree a standardised connection system, it is going to take decades.
Why would that be any more privacy-invading than credit or debit cards?

I envisage it mainly as for home use. Charge at cheap rate overnight. Use some unneeded energy during the day for domestic use. Sell excess to grid.
Rinse and repeat.

This is more of an issue for battery cycle life than privacy - and batteries live and die by the number of cycles they have to go through.  You could be buying a 5 year old car but the battery has seen 10years + of cycles.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

JimSh

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2252 on: May 26, 2021, 02:20:16 PM »
Using cars as portable power packs involve huge privacy issues : tracking where you stopped etc, ensuring your account is not hacked, ensuring your account is credited with correct amounts etc.
As the industry cannot agree a standardised connection system, it is going to take decades.
Why would that be any more privacy-invading than credit or debit cards?

I envisage it mainly as for home use. Charge at cheap rate overnight. Use some unneeded energy during the day for domestic use. Sell excess to grid.
Rinse and repeat.

This is more of an issue for battery cycle life than privacy - and batteries live and die by the number of cycles they have to go through.  You could be buying a 5 year old car but the battery has seen 10years + of cycles.

Musk's been talking about a million mile battery for ages.
Are batteries not meant to be charged and discharged? This is what happens when they are in a car.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=V2g+utube&ru=%2fvideos%2fsearch%3fq%3dV2g%2butube%26%26FORM%3dVDVVXX&view=detail&mid=EE9E38746090031FD586EE9E38746090031FD586&&FORM=VDRVRV

Edit added link
« Last Edit: May 26, 2021, 02:25:35 PM by JimSh »

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2253 on: May 26, 2021, 02:55:05 PM »
This is more of an issue for battery cycle life than privacy - and batteries live and die by the number of cycles they have to go through.  You could be buying a 5 year old car but the battery has seen 10years + of cycles.

Musk's been talking about a million mile battery for ages.
Are batteries not meant to be charged and discharged? This is what happens when they are in a car.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=V2g+utube&ru=%2fvideos%2fsearch%3fq%3dV2g%2butube%26%26FORM%3dVDVVXX&view=detail&mid=EE9E38746090031FD586EE9E38746090031FD586&&FORM=VDRVRV

Edit added link

Batteries are meant to be charged and discharged, but doing it reduces their capacity, you can store a Li-ION battery at about 45% SOC for years and it won't degrade hardly at all.  Charge and discharge it daily over the same number of years will degrade it a lot. Charging and discharging causes 'wear', so just like a washing machine, if you buy one and don't use it it will last centuries,  but with daily use maybe 10 years.  In one case the wear is caused by mechanical movement, in the other case chemical changes.

https://www.mpoweruk.com/life.htm

Even Tesla admit that the longest battery life is achieved if you forget fast charging altogether,  and otherwise limit the depth of discharge and charge.  Fully charging a Li-Ion battery damages it, keeping the SOC above 80% damages it, discharging below 30% damages it ( after manufacture batteries are actually stored at 45% SOC for least degradation and longer shelf life ).
« Last Edit: May 26, 2021, 02:57:44 PM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

JimSh

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2254 on: May 26, 2021, 03:32:53 PM »


Charging and discharging causes 'wear', so just like a washing machine, if you buy one and don't use it it will last centuries,  but with daily use maybe 10 years.  In one case the wear is caused by mechanical movement, in the other case chemical changes.

Not much sense in storing a washing machine for centuries or in buying an expensive battery and not using it.



Even Tesla admit that the longest battery life is achieved if you forget fast charging altogether,  and otherwise limit the depth of discharge and charge.  Fully charging a Li-Ion battery damages it, keeping the SOC above 80% damages it, discharging below 30% damages it ( after manufacture batteries are actually stored at 45% SOC for least degradation and longer shelf life ).

Agreed.
I suppose you don't know how much fast charging the battery has been subjected to when buying second hand. Then again I suppose you don't know what the one careful lady owner has subjected the engine to when buying an ICE.

Last edit Added last paragraph.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2021, 04:36:17 PM by JimSh »

embee

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2255 on: May 31, 2021, 10:11:12 PM »
Looks like HMRC is catching up on use of electrickery for cars, clarifying that all charging of cars in public places will be subject to VAT at 20% (standard rate) and not the reduced 5% rate for domestic electricity.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/ev-charging-company-hikes-uk-prices-after-vat-rule-clarification/ar-AAKyqga?ocid=msedgdhp

If the gas boiler ban comes in and people switch wholesale to air sourced heat pumps and use electric cars, my rough estimate is that on average a UK home could be getting close to the 1000kWhr/month limit which is assumed for the 5% VAT rate. It's got to be just a matter of time before HMRC start looking for ways to apply 20% VAT on car charging at home (remember why they want smart meters in all homes?)

TiJazz

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2256 on: June 01, 2021, 01:56:37 AM »
Smart meters still can’t differentiate between devices. You’d have to meter the charger separately.

peteo48

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2257 on: June 01, 2021, 11:09:31 AM »
Just adding to my previous post about the two EV Youtubers who have slammed the state of the UK charging network, Jonathan Porterfield who sells EVs for a living, has joined the party. In this case he is slamming the charging network in Scotland (I thought it was better than England but maybe not).

The narrative is that more chargers are coming on line all the time but the complaints are rising. Is this because the increase in EV sales (still tiny as a proportion) is outstripping the ability of the network to cope?

The chronic unreliability of these chargers is cited as an issue by many who use them. The companies that own them are very slow to repair them (some are better than others but it's an issue). There is increasing concern about "Betamax" syndrome with particular reference to CHADEMO chargers as fitted to the Nissan Leaf.

Jonathan Porterfield is clear. The target must be the same level of provision and reliability as currently exists at petrol and diesel pumps. Contactless must be the default payment method and Apps must be phased out as a charging mechanism.

EVs are still suitable for many uses but not for a single car household that would need to use the laughable public charging network we currently have. It's not even close to being fit for purpose.

richardfrost

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2258 on: June 01, 2021, 12:49:49 PM »
Smart meters still can’t differentiate between devices. You’d have to meter the charger separately.

There's devices available now that differentiate between your toaster and your microwave. They are used to monitor elderly or vulnerable people to check that they are ok and doing things in their home.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-57009375

Also, why Electric Car adoption will accelerate exponentially.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57253947

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2259 on: June 01, 2021, 03:18:11 PM »
Smart meters still can’t differentiate between devices. You’d have to meter the charger separately.

There's devices available now that differentiate between your toaster and your microwave. They are used to monitor elderly or vulnerable people to check that they are ok and doing things in their home.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-57009375

Also, why Electric Car adoption will accelerate exponentially.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57253947

I have said before on this thread that governments will find a way to sort out electrickery used to charge EV from the rest of household use and it will incur 20% VAT as opposed to the 5% presently levied. 

I don't think you can compare internet and other tech revolutions with electric cars,  in the first place internet lowered most peoples expenditure ( access to online buying like Ebay and Amazon ) and vastly expanded their opportunities for entertainment.  Whereas the cheapest electric vehicle now is many times the cost of its ICE / Hybrid alternative, and really not that much cheaper to run unless you can charge at home ( at maybe not even that for much longer ).  People may be more interested in multi-fuel cars that can for example both Hydrogen or LPG in a conventional engine, or in a fuel cell. 

The other thing is the proliferation of different charging plugs and fast and slow charging - as Peteo48 said, 'Betamax and VHS' all over again.  Unlike present fuel stations where they are in fairly compact areas looked after well ( supervised by proper humans ) the electric charging stuff is in small lumps scattered all over the place, wide open to vandalism and bad maintenance. 
« Last Edit: June 01, 2021, 03:23:33 PM by culzean »
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richardfrost

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2260 on: June 01, 2021, 05:28:59 PM »
I don't think you can compare internet and other tech revolutions with electric cars,  in the first place internet lowered most peoples expenditure ( access to online buying like Ebay and Amazon ) and vastly expanded their opportunities for entertainment.  Whereas the cheapest electric vehicle now is many times the cost of its ICE / Hybrid alternative, and really not that much cheaper to run unless you can charge at home ( at maybe not even that for much longer ).  People may be more interested in multi-fuel cars that can for example both Hydrogen or LPG in a conventional engine, or in a fuel cell. 

The other thing is the proliferation of different charging plugs and fast and slow charging - as Peteo48 said, 'Betamax and VHS' all over again.  Unlike present fuel stations where they are in fairly compact areas looked after well ( supervised by proper humans ) the electric charging stuff is in small lumps scattered all over the place, wide open to vandalism and bad maintenance.
All the examples you give here have direct correlations in terms of the growth of the Internet. It was hugely expensive to begin with, very difficult to access until the early '90s, and even then problematic and expensive until ADSL became a standard. In the '90s it was offered to the public via a variety of incompatible services like Compuserve and AOL that eventually coalesced into a standard. I think the similarities are there for all to see.

What the BBC article says is that, in comparison to the adoption of the Internet, we are probably somewhere around that point in time in the mid '90s when, over about 8 years, it went from being a niche technology to a household commodity.

The naysayers can nay all the like, I'm not a fan yet, it's early days, but it will happen, eventually. It is inevitable.

E27006

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2261 on: June 01, 2021, 05:45:55 PM »
The car industry is first-class when bending sheet metal into a car, how low can be the price of all that bent sheet metal?  Dacia Sandero .....  £7995.
An electric car is a package of a very expensive battery pack and less than £7995 worth of sheet metal.
Moore's Law  applies when something doubles in performance for the same money, or, same performance for half the money.
In the case of the computer CPU, the Moore's law cycle is two years, in the case of the battery, Moore's law cycle is said by the experts  to be 7 years,  2030  is only 1 and a bit Moore cycles for batteries to halve in price or double in capacity. 2030, the end of making IC cars,  It is simply too early in the Moors law cycle for a truly affordable electric car, and it will be many Moore's law cycle before  we see an electric car to compete with a  £7995 Dacia Sandero.
The service life of cars has improved greatly,  better rustproofing etc. Predictions are  cars manufactured in 2029 will be fit for 30 years of service

John Ratsey

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2262 on: June 01, 2021, 06:34:53 PM »
I read the BBC EV article and it's based on manufacturers ramping up production capacity of EVs and phasing out ICE powered vehicles. However, the grand plan comes unstuck if either the charging infrastructure isn't there or the cost of charging is significantly more than the cost of fuel in which case potential purchasers will be cautious about getting EVs. Plus, if carbon-based fuels have to be used to generate the electricity, then the CO2 reduction benefit is much reduced.
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culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2263 on: June 01, 2021, 07:43:54 PM »
I read the BBC EV article and it's based on manufacturers ramping up production capacity of EVs and phasing out ICE powered vehicles. However, the grand plan comes unstuck if either the charging infrastructure isn't there or the cost of charging is significantly more than the cost of fuel in which case potential purchasers will be cautious about getting EVs. Plus, if carbon-based fuels have to be used to generate the electricity, then the CO2 reduction benefit is much reduced.

For long periods this year the fans on sticks have not really contributed much to grid, they go from 35% to <5% in the blink of an eye, but have spent long periods in the 5% area this year.  Solar is worthwhile for about 10 hours a day at this time of year, but between October and March in UK the solar may as well not be connected to grid.... so gas and nuclear continue to be the mainstay of our grid ( mainly gas, which is normally from 40 to over 60% )....really the only reliable sources of power.  Unless we can get a reliable source of electrickery BEV on a large scale are pie in the sky, and when you add all electric houses into the equation = madness.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2021, 09:29:27 PM by culzean »
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JimSh

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2264 on: June 02, 2021, 07:37:47 AM »
« Last Edit: June 02, 2021, 07:52:10 AM by JimSh »

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