Author Topic: Start/Stop not activating (battery symbol)  (Read 19835 times)

Rambo

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Start/Stop not activating (battery symbol)
« on: May 27, 2020, 09:38:59 PM »
Hi all,

I purchased a Honda Jazz (2015 - 65 plate) last year in June. It is a 1.3 SE which has basic start/stop plus lane warning and a few other bits.

We have seen the start/stop activate on a few occasions but for the last 3 months or so we have noticed when you pop in neutral and release the clutch, the start/stop symbol appears on the dash with a battery symbol next to it.

We generally make short trips since lockdown and was wondering if that was the problem. We have in recent weeks done a few 10-15 mile trips and still no start/stop.

I purchased a CTEK smart charger and connected it to the battery, out of the possible 8 hour charge it dropped quickly to 2 hours and then actually only took 30 mins of charge before saying done.

Straight after charge I took on a 10-15 mile duel carriageway trip. Parked up a mile near home, no start/stop. Stopped the engine, started again and continued to home, pulled up on driveway, still no start/stop and battery symbol appearing again next to the start/stop symbol.

Does anyone else have this issue? Any thoughts on what it could be? It is the original battery (I think LB505 is on the side of it). Otherwise no other markings. It is only 4-5 years old so I didn't suspect the battery but maybe it is.

I have read the manual and there are many checks that are done at start-up and during drive to determine if start/stop can be activated.

It is just an annoyance to me at the moment. The first Honda I have ever owned but currently very disappointed.

Thanks in advance.

ColinB

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Re: Start/Stop not activating (battery symbol)
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2020, 09:52:23 PM »
Yeah, it's pretty infuriating. Over the last 4 years of ownership, I've found the Stop-Start only works infrequently over the winter months, usually with the low-battery indication you describe. There are so many factors that will inhibit it that it's pretty well impossible to work out why it isn't working. I even took it back to the dealer when it was still under warranty and they confirmed it OK. However, as soon as I do a few long trips, or the weather warms up, it comes back.

Re the problem of low mileage during lockdown I was getting the same as you. I think the very slight battery drain from the alarm & immobiliser dropped the voltage just enough to fool the stop-start system, and the very short supermarket trips weren't enough to compensate. I've now invested in a solar battery maintainer ...
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AA-Essentials-12V-Solar-Powered-Car-Battery-Charger-Solar-Panel-OBD-Version/233129991124?
Since then, no problems at all. The Stop-Start works as it should, even on short trips.

sparky Paul

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Re: Start/Stop not activating (battery symbol)
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2020, 10:27:37 PM »
We don't have S/S on the Jazz, but I've noticed on my car that the system is very fussy, and stops functioning long before the battery shows any difficulties actually starting the car.

It's probably the battery getting tired. I need to replace the battery on my Vaux for the same reason, but it's still starts up fine, and a new one is £150.

Rambo

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Re: Start/Stop not activating (battery symbol)
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2020, 11:42:26 PM »
Thanks folks for the replies. Very puzzling why Honda designed the start/stop system like this.

I believe it is the point where the car is started that checks are performed on the battery level, so if the battery is half charged, you start it and drive 300 miles it still won't activate start/stop until you stop the engine and re-start. I might be wrong on this but it's all a bit odd and frustrating.

We never have any difficulty in starting the car, just the stupid start/stop system.

ColinB - re the solar panel and probably a silly question but do you just leave the panel on the dashboard somewhere? I am unsure if this will cure the problem, as I mentioned I used a CTEK smart charger to fully charge the battery and went straight out afterwards yet it still shows battery symbol for start/stop.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2020, 11:51:29 PM by Rambo »

ColinB

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Re: Start/Stop not activating (battery symbol)
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2020, 08:24:17 AM »
I believe it is the point where the car is started that checks are performed on the battery level, so if the battery is half charged, you start it and drive 300 miles it still won't activate start/stop until you stop the engine and re-start.

Others have suggested this, and there might be something in it. My personal experience has been that it’s more complicated though, I’ve had it sometimes work, and sometimes not, in the course of a single long trip.

ColinB - re the solar panel and probably a silly question but do you just leave the panel on the dashboard somewhere? I am unsure if this will cure the problem, as I mentioned I used a CTEK smart charger to fully charge the battery and went straight out afterwards yet it still shows battery symbol for start/stop.

Yes, I just leave it on the top of the dash plugged into the OBD socket whilst the car’s parked. The instructions do tell you to unplug it before starting the car. NB other vendors sell the same panel but with a cigarette lighter plug, which is pointless for the Jazz because that socket’s dead with the ignition off.

Regarding it not working after fully charging the battery, there seem to be some wrinkles about how the battery is reconnected after charging. There are other threads in this forum by people far more knowledgeable than me. Have a look at these for starters:
https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=12005.15
https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=10836.msg76288#msg76288

culzean

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Re: Start/Stop not activating (battery symbol)
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2020, 10:56:33 AM »
as I mentioned I used a CTEK smart charger to fully charge the battery and went straight out afterwards yet it still shows battery symbol for start/stop.

There are threads on here with information about charging the stop-start battery ( posted by colinB above ),  you cannot charge it by connecting clips to both battery terminals - this will bypass the current flow sensor fitted between negative terminal and body earth connection.  You need to clip one lead of charger to battery positive and then the other lead to the bodywork of car.  The stop-start battery works on coulomb counting method,  which senses the current entering and leaving the battery and the electronic brain then decides if the battery is charged or not,  it does not simply look a battery terminal voltages.

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_measure_state_of_charge

Many devices nowadays use coulomb counting to determine state of charge of battery - especially Li-Ion batteries as they are very sensitive to being over charged - even things like rechargeable electric toothbrushes and electric razors ( as I found out when I replaced the Li-Ion battery on my razor and it would not run despite battery being fully charged,  I had to unsolder battery again and discharge it, refit it and let it recharge via the shaver circuitry - then it was fine ).
« Last Edit: May 28, 2020, 11:04:29 AM by culzean »
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Rambo

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Re: Start/Stop not activating (battery symbol)
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2020, 11:04:15 AM »
Very interesting thank you all.

Culzean - I simply connected the charger leads to positive and negative battery terminals. I will try connecting positive charger lead to positive battery terminal and the negative charger lead to the bodywork.

culzean

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Re: Start/Stop not activating (battery symbol)
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2020, 11:13:40 AM »
Very interesting thank you all.

Culzean - I simply connected the charger leads to positive and negative battery terminals. I will try connecting positive charger lead to positive battery terminal and the negative charger lead to the bodywork.

That may or may not work if the battery is already fully charged ( as I found with my electric razor ) as it will not see any charge going in - i don't know if you can discharge the stop start battery ( i could not do that with my razor without disconnecting it and manually discharging it - because the electronic had made their mind up the battery was not charged and would not let razor motor run).  Unless the electronics is satisfied the battery is indeed fully charged because it has seen the current going into it it may just continue to say NO ( like the computer in 'Little Britain' show ). 

Somewhere on this forum ( may be in links ColinB posted ) there is a page from Honda technical bulletin detailing how to charge stop-start by using the car body earth and not negative terminal.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2020, 11:23:57 AM by culzean »
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Jocko

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Re: Start/Stop not activating (battery symbol)
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2020, 11:40:52 AM »
Somewhere on this forum ( may be in links ColinB posted ) there is a page from Honda technical bulletin detailing how to charge stop-start by using the car body earth and not negative terminal.
I would expect that if you connected your discharge load between live and body earth, you could discharge the battery sufficiently so that once alternator started to recharge the battery, the coulomb counter would be happy to do its stuff. Take it; it measures between the battery earth and vehicle earth?

Rambo

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Re: Start/Stop not activating (battery symbol)
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2020, 04:58:12 PM »
I followed the Honda bulletin and connected positive to positive and negative to the body cable side of the battery symbol sensor.

No notable difference and the CTEK charger reported the battery was ready in around 2 mins.

Measuring voltage with charger connected;

14.3

Measuring voltage with charger disconnected shortly after;

13.0

LJs JAZZ

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Re: Start/Stop not activating (battery symbol)
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2020, 05:04:22 PM »
I had the same problem with my VW Polo which I purchased at just over 12 months old. Trouble with buying used vehicles is you can not be sure how it was used and or how long the dealer has it in stock.
Anyway I took the car back to the dealer and they did a complete re - set of the ecu and it has been perfect ever since.
Not sure if Honda system is similar, our Jazz does not have stop/start

Rambo

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Re: Start/Stop not activating (battery symbol)
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2020, 06:31:35 PM »
Took on 10 mile trip, measured voltage on battery before going and after shortly removing the charger;

13.1

Start/stop not working and still the battery symbol shows.

Measured voltage on battery on returning and parking on driveway;

12.9

I can't see how the battery can be in any better shape yet start/stop complains and doesn't work.

Does the battery level need to be 13.2 volts or greater at all times for start/stop to work?
« Last Edit: May 28, 2020, 06:36:00 PM by Rambo »

jazzaro

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Re: Start/Stop not activating (battery symbol)
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2020, 07:00:15 PM »
I don't know, maybe we should read the workshop manual.
Maybe the system reads the SOC before startup, maybe it reads how much current flows during startup and how much current flows back during the following  recharge and how long it takes.
I think there are some algorithms used by the ecu to understand both the SOC and the health of our battery, but I don't know them.

culzean

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Re: Start/Stop not activating (battery symbol)
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2020, 07:58:16 PM »
The battery uses coulomb counting to assess state of charge not the terminal voltage.  There is a hall effect current sensor in the negative battery lead and if you charge the battery with a charger on the battery terminals the electronics have not seen any charge go into the battery so the terminal voltage could be 14 volts and the electronics would not be happy.  You are in a no win situation at present, the battery is fully charged but because the sensor was bypassed when you charged it the electronics did not see any charge going into it so will not let stop start system operate.  I do not know whether there's is a reset that Honda dealer can do, but as I said a page from Honda technical bulletin was posted on this forum telling technicians to only charge stop start battery with negative charger lead clamped to car bodywork, not the negative battery terminal.. which bypasses current sensor. 

The new battery on my shaver was fully charged when I fitted it, but the shaver only ran for one shave before red light came on and shaver would not run any more, because it was charged when it was outside shaver and electronic charge circuit had not seen any current go into battery, I had to disconnect battery from shaver and  fully discharge it, then put the flat battery into shaver and charge it so that the electronics saw how much went in ( and that is exactly how much it would loose back out before saying battery was flat - it had nothing to do with terminal voltage of battery ) coulomb counting is now the preferred way to control battery charge as it stops overcharging and prevents fully discharging battery. Terminal voltage is only a rough guide to state of charge of a battery, coulomb counting is much more accurate.  My shaver ran for full two weeks after I did the discharge and charge bit.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2020, 08:00:39 PM by culzean »
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jazzaro

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Re: Start/Stop not activating (battery symbol)
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2020, 08:46:11 PM »
The battery uses coulomb counting to assess state of charge not the terminal voltage.
There is a hall effect current sensor in the negative battery lead and if you charge the battery with a charger on the battery terminals the electronics have not seen any charge go into the battery so the terminal voltage could be 14 volts and the electronics would not be happy.  You are in a no win situation at present, the battery is fully charged but because the sensor was bypassed when you charged it the electronics did not see any charge going into it so will not let stop start system operate.  I do not know whether there's is a reset that Honda dealer can do, but as I said a page from Honda technical bulletin was posted on this forum telling technicians to only charge stop start battery with negative charger lead clamped to car bodywork, not the negative battery terminal.. which bypasses current sensor. 

Smart external chargers use voltage to understand the SOC, some professional devices measure the voltage before and after appliyng a heavy resistance for some seconds used to simulate a startup; if the gap is big, it doesn't matter if the initial voltage was high, this means the battery is out of order.
Our Hondas use coulomb counting for sure, but I'm pretty sure this is not the only parameter used; maybe there are some equations  as "after X current sent to the battery the voltage must raise not less that Y in Z minutes; if Y is lower and/or Z is too long, the battery is not OK". Or "after a restart, the gap between initial and final voltage must be lower than R" and so on. Coulomb counting cannot be the only parameter, otherwise the car would go on showing the alert even after a new battery.
And there is this strange behavoiur: starting my car in the morning, I see that initially  S&S works fine  but after 5-6 times it stops working, with the battery alert on my dash. I was thinking this was due to many current drags, but I noticed this happens also after starting and running for 40-50kms in a highway, without S&S and when the battery should be well charged (no restarts and many minutes with high rpms), and strangely I see the battery alert at the first stop. So why battery  conditions are good after five minutes from startup (S&S working) but they are not good after 30 minutes in a highway? Maybe the system reads a good voltage on startup, but it does not count enough recharging current?
I'm tempted to leave the battery leads  disconnectet for a whole night, just to see if this could "erase" the coulomb counting memory, just to try...
« Last Edit: May 28, 2020, 08:49:04 PM by jazzaro »

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