Post by: JazzyB on August 16, 2017, 08:46:00 PM
Post by: Ozzie on August 16, 2017, 09:04:59 PM
Post by: trebor1652 on August 16, 2017, 09:26:16 PM
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Post by: John Ratsey on August 16, 2017, 10:21:52 PM
Looking forward to giving it a test drive and see how different it is to the 1.3.If it is configured the same as the 1.5 engine in the HR-V without the Atkinson cycle at the lower revs then it will provide smoother, more progressive, performance as well as more overall power at the high end. I have found the HR-V to be a much more pleasant drive than the Mk 3 Jazz for this reason. However, it's possible that Honda might retain the Atkinson cycle for the Jazz to provide better economy but the longer stroke of the 1.5 should still give proportionally better torque than the 1.3.
Post by: JazzyB on August 16, 2017, 11:43:38 PM
Any ideas regarding the cost??No prices given in the article in this week's Auto express mag.
Post by: Skyrider on August 17, 2017, 12:18:48 PM
Post by: culzean on August 17, 2017, 02:08:18 PM
The Auto Express article states that the facelift 1.3 Jazz will have a five speed manual gearbox.
IMHO 6 speed box is much better than 5 speed and Honda are making a mistake staying with a 5 speeder, especially at price of Jazz. Basically the smaller the engine the more gears you need...............
Post by: andruec on August 17, 2017, 02:20:51 PM
Indeed. I have an infinite number within a given range ;)The Auto Express article states that the facelift 1.3 Jazz will have a five speed manual gearbox.
IMHO 6 speed box is much better than 5 speed and Honda are making a mistake staying with a 5 speeder, especially at price of Jazz. Basically the smaller the engine the more gears you need...............
Post by: VicW on August 17, 2017, 03:18:43 PM
I see in the next jazz there's finally a bigger engine being offered! 128bhp 1.5 litre! about time Honda UK!!
The bigger engine is not available across the range but only in the 'Dynamic' which has lots of other bells and whistles and will obviously cost lots more.
Vic.
Post by: Jocko on August 17, 2017, 03:40:26 PM
IMHO 6 speed box is much better than 5 speed and Honda are making a mistake staying with a 5 speederI agree with that. I find myself reaching for the gear lever, thinking I am in 4th, when I am actually in 5th. A 6th gear would be great. And as many of you know, I have already made room for it in my box!
Post by: andruec on August 17, 2017, 09:13:48 PM
You still have to select your own gears? How quaint. ;DIMHO 6 speed box is much better than 5 speed and Honda are making a mistake staying with a 5 speederI agree with that. I find myself reaching for the gear lever, thinking I am in 4th, when I am actually in 5th. A 6th gear would be great. And as many of you know, I have already made room for it in my box!
Post by: Paulwhitt20 on August 17, 2017, 10:54:24 PM
6th is only useful on the motorway and you have to change down to go up hills or overtake. No torque at the low end of the revs.
Post by: culzean on August 18, 2017, 08:19:31 AM
You still have to select your own gears? How quaint. ;DIMHO 6 speed box is much better than 5 speed and Honda are making a mistake staying with a 5 speederI agree with that. I find myself reaching for the gear lever, thinking I am in 4th, when I am actually in 5th. A 6th gear would be great. And as many of you know, I have already made room for it in my box!
Surely its not so hard to understand that a lot of drivers prefer to interact with the car and not just be a bystander while it does everything for you. I drove auto boxes and CVT for a lot of years, just not everybodies cup of tea, they are useful in towns and cities, but I have very little reason to drive in those places.
Post by: Jocko on August 18, 2017, 08:48:14 AM
Post by: Hobo on August 18, 2017, 11:21:42 AM
Post by: peteo48 on August 20, 2017, 11:47:51 AM
I still haven't driven one but, last week, I got a lift in a friends Mk 2 1.4 EX with the CVT box. I have to say it would drive me mad. Accelerating up a hill was sluggish and the car was noisy under acceleration as well. He admitted he wasn't happy with it preferring the old I shift on his previous Jazz.
They are not for me and that's somebody who does a lot of town work. What I found interesting was comparing this experience to a journey in a Nissan Leaf as a passenger. Of course, with no engineering background, I don't understand the difference but the single reduction gear in the Leaf is something I could live with - there was no obvious strain under hard acceleration.
I think the new Jazz might be quite fun with a manual box.
Post by: JazzyB on August 20, 2017, 12:28:54 PM
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/honda/jazz/100443/honda-jazz-facelifted-for-2018-with-styling-tweaks?_mout=1&utm_campaign=autoexpress_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter
Post by: Jocko on August 20, 2017, 12:38:10 PM
Post by: peteo48 on August 20, 2017, 02:06:14 PM
Post by: andruec on August 20, 2017, 05:36:51 PM
On the issue of CVT we have discussed this many times before. Most motoring journalists don't like CVT boxes which are also found in Toyotas as well as Hondas.Good, because motoring journalists are petrol head idiots. The fact they don't like them is a good thing. Sensible people understand that.
Quote
I still haven't driven one but, last week, I got a lift in a friends Mk 2 1.4 EX with the CVT box. I have to say it would drive me mad. Accelerating up a hill was sluggish and the car was noisy under acceleration as well. He admitted he wasn't happy with it preferring the old I shift on his previous Jazz.So your friend can't drive. Shame. The CVT box is only sluggish if you get caught out by the Atkinson cycle. A good driver soon learns to work around that. Preferring manual to CVT is one thing but your friend is in a very small minority if they prefer the i-Shift. Even Honda admit it was a bad decision. Your friend's opinion is clearly not worth the time it would take to listen to.
Quote
I think the new Jazz might be quite fun with a manual box.Possibly. If your idea of fun is pulling a stupid lever and pressing a silly pedal. I prefer to concentrate on those aspects of driving that require my unique abilities. Choosing a gear ratio is something a dumb computer can do.
Post by: Skyrider on August 20, 2017, 06:29:59 PM
My initial thought was the five speed box statement was an error made by an ignorant journalist, we shall see before long!
Post by: DaveBerks on August 20, 2017, 10:54:15 PM
The buyers of the Civic who can't afford the higher powered 1.5 turbo petrol will happily buy the 1.0 turbo despite the poor fuel economy (compared to official figures) of turbo petrol cars (see Honest John's Real Miles Per Gallon website). After all these small turbos seem to be in every other small family car of similar size (did I say small ? :o). However it is generally cost and reliability conscious types who buy the Jazz, and as the 1.5 engine is already tried and tested elsewhere and a low risk for Honda to put into the Jazz imported into Europe for the few that will buy them. It lacks the downsized 'I'm a sexy little beast' image of a testosterone fuelled power bomb 1.0 turbo of course, but addresses the criticism of relative sleuth that has been levelled at the 1.3 (which is designed for low speed economy rather than low speed performance, rather like hybrid ;D). It all comes down to image and how quickly you really want to get away from the lights. The new car will widen choice and improve the car's image amongst younger drivers in the UK and give the motoring journos something to get mildly interested in. Just my thoughts.......
Post by: Skyrider on August 21, 2017, 08:14:09 AM
www.reuters.com/article/us-autoshow-paris-engines-exclusive-idUSKBN12E11K
Post by: Jocko on August 21, 2017, 09:27:38 AM
Post by: culzean on August 21, 2017, 09:42:01 AM
Automatic small cars are for domestic appliance users not drivers.
+10
Automatics have their place, If I spent nearly all my time in city driving may even consider one, but being as I live in one of the least populated counties in UK don't need one and can spare some of my 'unique abilities' ( LOL ) to change gear - (not playing with infotainment etc.) a properly driven manual can get better fuel consumption than an auto ( so much for computers knowing better eh). I did put a link to an American study on 'electric cars thread' that suggested that as modern cars get more and more gadgets and drivers have less and less to do on the driving side the accident rate is rising. Anyway if you have a manual box the excercise keeps you 'Fit' in your Jazz............. ( I don't want to get deep vein thrombosis in my left leg).
http://driving.ca/auto-news/news/as-robots-take-the-wheel-driving-skills-begin-to-hit-the-skids
http://driving.ca/auto-news/news/motor-mouth-people-can-still-drive-better-than-computers-when-we-want-to
Just had a thought, maybe car makers aren't too concerned about higher rates of accidents as when autonomous cars come good (if ever) even if the accident rates only drop back to 'pre driver aids' levels they can say autonomous cars are safer LOL
Post by: Jocko on August 21, 2017, 10:36:08 AM
Post by: peteo48 on August 21, 2017, 12:59:11 PM
Automatics have their place, If I spent nearly all my time in city driving may even consider one, but being as I live in one of the least populated counties in UK don't need one and can spare some of my 'unique abilities' ( LOL ) to change gear - (not playing with infotainment etc.) a properly driven manual can get better fuel consumption than an auto ( so much for computers knowing better eh). I did put a link to an American study on 'electric cars thread' that suggested that as modern cars get more and more gadgets and drivers have less and less to do on the driving side the accident rate is rising. Anyway if you have a manual box the excercise keeps you 'Fit' in your Jazz............. ( I don't want to get deep vein thrombosis in my left leg).
http://driving.ca/auto-news/news/as-robots-take-the-wheel-driving-skills-begin-to-hit-the-skids
http://driving.ca/auto-news/news/motor-mouth-people-can-still-drive-better-than-computers-when-we-want-to
Just had a thought, maybe car makers aren't too concerned about higher rates of accidents as when autonomous cars come good (if ever) even if the accident rates only drop back to 'pre driver aids' levels they can say autonomous cars are safer LOL
Interesting stuff. I can see the argument that the halfway house we have now - more automatic transmissions, more adaptive cruise control, lane departure warnings etc etc could have exactly that consequence. Complacency in front of the wheel. If you combine that with the infotainment systems now as standard on a whole range of vehicles the drive may be complacent AND distracted.
I've got the hands free telephone system that came with my Jazz. I don't get many incoming calls but there is no doubt that your attention dips even when the phone starts to ring.
Post by: Jocko on August 21, 2017, 02:04:36 PM
Post by: peteo48 on August 21, 2017, 02:12:22 PM
Quote
I think the new Jazz might be quite fun with a manual box.Possibly. If your idea of fun is pulling a stupid lever and pressing a silly pedal. I prefer to concentrate on those aspects of driving that require my unique abilities. Choosing a gear ratio is something a dumb computer can do.
[/quote]
Yes I was aware that most people didn't like the I shift. My friend has an automatic mainly because it is easier on his arthritic knees.
Anyway - I'm seeing him next week and will gladly pass on any advice as to how to drive these things without the whining sound. I must admit we were on our way to a lunch meeting and this involved a stretch on the M60, some urban driving and then a long ascent of a steep hill out in the country just north of Oldham. The car certainly seemed very much at home in the urban setting but less so going up the hill or on the motorway.
Horses for courses I guess.
Post by: Downsizer on August 23, 2017, 06:20:33 PM
Post by: Skyrider on August 23, 2017, 06:56:35 PM
Post by: guest1372 on August 23, 2017, 07:52:02 PM
The Honda newsfeed about the facelift includes the following: "The CVT system itself has been revised to deliver a more linear and refined response under acceleration." What does this mean?The original Mk3 PR bumf seemed to hint that the CVT had been given software 'steps' for the European version although I don't recall anyone describing it like that on here. Maybe the facelift is a return to a purely linear response/economy equation?
Original Mk3: " The CVT’s driveability uses new control software, exclusive to Europe, which simulates seven speeds and provides optimised gear change."
--
TG
Post by: andruec on August 25, 2017, 11:23:12 AM
My friend has an automatic mainly because it is easier on his arthritic knees.Definitely an advantage, there.
In my experience the biggest pain is the new engine. I think the manual gearbox has an advantage here because the gear selection implicitly 'wakes up' the engine by forcing it into the appropriate RPM band. I noticed when I drove manual courtesy cars that it was less of an issue.
The trick I've adopted now is to use 'kick down'. If you move the accelerator sharply down half way it will jump the engine to 3,000 rpm. If unsure best to practice on the open road because if you press the pedal all the way down it will jump to 4,000 rpm and definitely won't be sluggish :)
This same problem can afflict on hills. I have one I drive up every weekday to work and again I find it better to kick the car to 3,000 rpm at the bottom. If you don't you can keep pressing the accelerator pedal further and further before - suddenly - it wakes up.
Neither of these issues afflicted the two previous CVT equipped cars. It's just the engine. It might be very efficient but Honda seemed to have missed a trick when marrying it with the CVT.
One other thing I've noticed is that right at the bottom of the accelerator pedal travel there appears to be a switch. I can't remember if it's on the manual version or not. But if you press far enough to active that you'll get a very rapid response indeed. Or about as rapid as a 1.3 litre engine is going to get :)
It's a shame this is needed on the new Jazz. It shouldn't take too long to learn and ingrain the habit but the reason I liked the CVT originally is that it was smooth and required no thinking. The new engine has removed some of the smoothness and requires at least a little thought :-/
Post by: andruec on August 25, 2017, 11:25:27 AM
The Honda newsfeed about the facelift includes the following: "The CVT system itself has been revised to deliver a more linear and refined response under acceleration." What does this mean? Presumably it's a software change, so if it's an improvement, it should be possible to incorporate it into existing cars by means of a software update. On the other hand, it may apply only to the 1.5 litre version, where fuel economy is a lower priority.Maybe they've got it working better with the new engine. With the current version it seems a little too content to leave the engine in Atkinson mode despite the driver's urgings. We shouldn't have to kick-down to get it to accelerate away from a roundabout in a brisk fashion. An update to our models would be nice...but sadly I wouldn't expect it.
Post by: Downsizer on August 25, 2017, 12:09:44 PM
Despite this PR from Honda, I have not been aware of 7 steps in normal CVT driving in the Mk 3. Using the paddles reveals them, but this must also have been the case with previous models. I agree with Andruec that the main criticism of the MK 3 CVT is the need for a heavy kick down to get rapid acceleration. A smoother response would certainly be an improvement. However, the paddles work well when needed.
Original Mk3: " The CVT’s driveability uses new control software, exclusive to Europe, which simulates seven speeds and provides optimised gear change."
--
TG
Post by: trebor1652 on August 25, 2017, 03:07:39 PM
On going up hills, if you can use cruise control I find this better than trying to push the accelerator through the floor.
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Post by: mikebore on August 25, 2017, 03:26:21 PM
I prefer the paddles to kick down. IMO the engine reacts quicker.
On going up hills, if you can use cruise control I find this better than trying to push the accelerator through the floor.
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I find the same, paddles more responsive.
Post by: andruec on August 25, 2017, 03:55:44 PM
I usually run into the issue when pulling away from roundabouts and with the wheel turned the paddles are probably not under my fingers. That always seemed to be the case with my first Jazz so I gave up using them except for driving down long hills. At least I always know where the accelerator is and I nearly always manage to give it the right amount of jab.I prefer the paddles to kick down. IMO the engine reacts quicker.
On going up hills, if you can use cruise control I find this better than trying to push the accelerator through the floor.
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I find the same, paddles more responsive.
One thing I have noticed going back to that switch at the bottom of the pedal travel - the acceleration can be quite violent if you press that switch then let off again. It's odd that the manual doesn't mention anything about it.
Post by: ColinB on August 26, 2017, 08:25:39 AM
One other thing I've noticed is that right at the bottom of the accelerator pedal travel there appears to be a switch. ... if you press far enough to active that you'll get a very rapid response indeed. Or about as rapid as a 1.3 litre engine is going to get :)
One thing I have noticed going back to that switch at the bottom of the pedal travel - the acceleration can be quite violent if you press that switch then let off again. It's odd that the manual doesn't mention anything about it.Just speculating if this switch is associated with the "Clear Flood Mode" described in this and subsequent posts:
https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=8930.msg48854#msg48854
The two things seem to kick in at the same point in the pedal travel, although I'm not sure that a sudden "leaning" of the mixture would produce the result described by Andruec: but the ECU probably does other things in addition to simply adjusting the mixture when it goes into that mode. If so, it may not be intended to be used whilst driving, perhaps Honda aren't expecting typical Jazz drivers to floor the pedal !
Post by: Jocko on August 26, 2017, 08:53:16 AM
Post by: andruec on August 26, 2017, 04:58:31 PM
Every automatic I have ever driven (never a CVT) has has a "kick down" switch at the extreme travel of the accelerator pedal. Firm pressure activates it, and it gives an immediate down shift (sometimes two gears) to give swift acceleration. I would be most surprised if the Jazz didn't use something similar.That is my assumption but it's also not necessary to actually press that switch to get a kick down. Rapidly depressing the pedal will do that anyway. But I wonder if the switch is there to trigger a kick down if you've got the pedal almost to the floor without already triggering one.
On the rare occasions I want rapid acceleration I push all the way to floor anyway. But I've noticed that occasionally when I go too far if I then back off the pedal I seem to get engine braking leading to an uncomfortable back then forwards as the car lurches but only if I've pushed down that switch.
It's all a bit odd and further confused by the previous two models not having such a switch. Because of the violence of the reaction and the general risks I've not experimented with it :-/
Post by: andruec on August 26, 2017, 05:02:05 PM
Post by: Skyrider on August 26, 2017, 05:12:26 PM
Hmmm. Just found another possibility. On some cars it's a switch that overrides the speed limiter. One way of verifying that would be to ask if Jazz owners with a manual box have the switch.
I don't think my manual Jazz has a detent or switch on the accelerator pedal. The car should land on the drive in a few minutes, I will check with a hand. I believe that the accelerator is a non contact (magnetic) sensor so it should not have any "feel" other than the return spring.
Post by: Skyrider on August 26, 2017, 05:32:00 PM
Edit -
There may be an electronic or software switch in the engine ECU that operates at a certain pedal depression which has some effect on a CVT transmission.
Post by: Jocko on August 26, 2017, 06:39:17 PM
Post by: guest1372 on August 26, 2017, 07:02:22 PM
This was discussed a while back with someone claiming to have a switch at full travel, but I am certain that although there may be a change in the return spring tension - there is no switch. There are two non-contact magnetic rotary position sensors which produce a low voltage level signal monitored by the ECU (TPPS A & TPPS B). The ECU has a threshold above which it enters a higher mode.
--
TG
* My '68 Mustang had a press switch on the floor by the pedals, but that was for high beam.
Post by: Skyrider on August 26, 2017, 07:33:52 PM
As did my '68 Mini, and a few other cars. :-)
Post by: andruec on August 26, 2017, 08:16:24 PM
If other CVT models don't have it I should probably ask my dealer to take a look at it. I'm not keen on the idea of my accelerator pedal not operating smoothly when it should do.
:o
Post by: culzean on August 27, 2017, 08:27:53 AM
Okay. I've just spent five minutes on my hands and knees investigating and it's not a switch. It's just that the last little bit of travel is 'protected' so that you need to give a bit of extra pressure. Once you've overcome that brief resistance the remainder of pedal travel seems normal. It's as if the mechanism has some kind of 'gate' as if Honda want to protect the very last bit of travel from accidental pressure.
If other CVT models don't have it I should probably ask my dealer to take a look at it. I'm not keen on the idea of my accelerator pedal not operating smoothly when it should do.
:o
Looks like all or most CVT cars have that feature - below is an extract from a Mini CVT owner manual
Kickdown
In 'kickdown' mode, you achieve maximum
acceleration and maximum speed in
position D.
Press the accelerator pedal past the
increased resistance point at the full-throttle
position.
I have also read that a special valve on the transmission (selected by ECU and info it receives from throttle position sensor) operates to affect the oil flow to CVT pulleys and achieve kickdown effect, maybe they don't want you to go there all the time in normal driving as it may stress the transmission.
Post by: Skyrider on August 27, 2017, 09:02:48 AM
Post by: Downsizer on August 27, 2017, 09:23:58 AM
If other CVT models don't have it I should probably ask my dealer to take a look at it. I'm not keen on the idea of my accelerator pedal not operating smoothly when it should do.Don't worry - my Mk 3 CVT has the same extra pressure point near the end of the accelerator travel. Going beyond it results in a sharp downshift in gearing. It may also be the mechanism by which the speed limiter is temporarily overridden (handbook page 419).
:o
Post by: Jocko on August 27, 2017, 09:46:04 AM
Post by: VicW on August 27, 2017, 03:26:27 PM
It's probably a man thing.
Vic
Post by: culzean on August 27, 2017, 07:24:30 PM
If all else fails read the instructions !
It's probably a man thing.
Vic
I am a lot more likely to read an instruction book than her indoors, she would rather do it wrong, but God help me if I try to tell her :-X
Post by: peteo48 on August 27, 2017, 10:37:30 PM
Post by: Skyrider on August 28, 2017, 09:17:05 AM