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Other Hondas & General Topics => Off Topic (Non-Honda) => Topic started by: guest5079 on July 12, 2017, 11:36:56 AM

Title: Electric cars
Post by: guest5079 on July 12, 2017, 11:36:56 AM
Yesterday, received an update on our hairdressers Renault ZOE. Back at the main dealers AGAIN. This time a failure of the info system. What the out come was as Husband wasn't back' In her words probably be in black thunder if he has had the usual trouble,wait all day to be told can't fix it have to be new part from France.  That's why I am not allowed to go after I told them Its a pity you are not as good repairing them as you are selling them. So its not only Honda.
Air con failed in the recent heatwave, plus other constant niggles but what has shall we say upset them is the dealer used to allow a free charge up, now it's £6 for half an hour. It was this that showed them they did not have the car they ordered. They wanted a fast charge battery system, but after £6 worth the battery was no where charged. Check paperwork, it's the car ordered according to the paperwork.Sorry that salesman has left, no you can't complain. Both Husband and Wife were present on ordering. So is it a case of taking a tape recorder when you go to a dealer for ANYTHING? All of this is as related, it does nothing to suggest that these electric vehicles have a lot of development before they are foisted onto the public.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: VicW on July 12, 2017, 04:43:02 PM
When a totally electric car will do 450 miles on a charge with the same use all year round and will recharge with the ease with which I refuel with petrol and will cost the same to buy, then I might consider one.

Vic.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on July 12, 2017, 05:34:09 PM
I'm quite interested in electric cars because they would do 95% (possibly more) of my motoring. The longest return trip I've done this year is a 50 mile return trip. I do see the benefits not so much from a climate change point of view but certainly from an air quality one.

Interesting that this has come up today because the old lady next door came back from the shops in a Prius Taxi - a lot of taxis round here are Priuses and old ones at that. I asked the taxi driver how he found the Prius and he said it was great around town as far as mpg goes - less so on longer trips although still pretty good. I asked him if it did any mileage at all on electric only and he said he reckoned the range was no more than 2 miles at low speeds but the car did use the electric only mode quite a lot in stop start traffic.

The enthusiasm for EVs has, to some extent, overshadowed hybrids but they seem ideal as a town car. Not that I'm in the market at the moment but I think I might consider a hybrid next time.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on July 12, 2017, 06:24:13 PM
I am old enough to remember the power cuts of the 1970s.
Where we live in Staffs Moorlands was subject to long blackouts every winter for decades until the electrical supply   systems were improved in the 2000s.

I refuse to rely on electric heating and have a small petrol stand by generator..

Would I wish to be totally dependent on the elctricity supply? Knowing if the car ran out of charge, I would be stuck until it was restored AND the car was recharged...

(And having an automated house running on the mains?)

All our PCs have battery backups (bought cheaply)  due to prior outages.

Wait till the UK runs out of electrical generating capacity..
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on July 12, 2017, 06:47:26 PM
The electricity supply in UK has been getting more and more precarious for decades due to scrapping reliable coal fired stations and putting too much faith in unreliable wind and solar,  and successive governments inability to make decision on building new nuclear stations,  and due to delays country has lost ability to build its own nuclear and we have to go begging to French and chinese.   Most winters we have been down to less than a 5% reserve capacity and there has been talk of shutting industry down if we had any cold weather.

Electricity is hard and expensive to store so you need to generate it when it is needed,  if we had a cold winter with little wind we would be up the creek with no paddle. Solar in UK generates most power when you need it least,  in the daytime in summer.

The truth is we have idiots in charge of our energy policies.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/05/wind-turbines-are-neither-clean-nor-green-and-they-provide-zero-global-energy/ (https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/05/wind-turbines-are-neither-clean-nor-green-and-they-provide-zero-global-energy/)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 12, 2017, 06:53:11 PM
I truly believe that electric cars will never become "big" during my lifetime. For a start, the UK doesn't have enough electricity capacity to charge huge fleets of electric vehicles. We are on the verge of brownouts now. And where do you charge them? Most motorists don't have off street parking near their house.
They just built a new hospital wing here in Kirkcaldy and put in charging bays in the car park. Two of them!
Tesla's Supercharger supposedly gives 80% charge in 45 minutes, but even Tesla takes overnight to charge from a home charger.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: jazzster on July 12, 2017, 07:14:17 PM
I have been looking at electric cars for a while now, i have the same thought about power cuts, dont have many at the moments but uk capacity from power stations suppose to be borderline in winter, also the car are way to expensive and depreciation way to much money in few years, replacment batteries would cost more than most of the car are worth at 4 or 5 years old, I thought about hybrids but they seem to expensive for the savings on mpg.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 12, 2017, 07:40:45 PM
Of the current crop of electric vehicles I think the PHEV models are probably the best bet. Assuming you have your home charger you can probably run "electric" for a load of your normal running about. In my case that would be about 50 - 60% of my motoring. You then have the "hybrid mode" for the rest. The Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV does about 30 miles on battery alone.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on July 12, 2017, 07:46:12 PM
Of the current crop of electric vehicles I think the PHEV models are probably the best bet. Assuming you have your home charger you can probably run "electric" for a load of your normal running about. In my case that would be about 50 - 60% of my motoring. You then have the "hybrid mode" for the rest. The Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV does about 30 miles on battery alone.

I worked with a couple of engineers who had Outlanders as company vehicles,  they say don't rely on more than 20 miles on a full battery (it is a heavy vehicle and the battery weighs 500kg) - after that 30mpg and only a relatively small fuel tank for the size of the vehicle.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 12, 2017, 08:25:27 PM
I just picked the Outlander as an example. I pass an advert every day. It is the principle of PHEV that I am saying seems best compromise at present. Mind you, even 20 miles would be more than adequate for my daily miles. VW Golf would suit me better! It supposedly does 30 miles and takes 2.5 hours to charge.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on July 12, 2017, 08:45:52 PM
There are growing numbers of reports of electric vehicles setting on fire,  especially those with lithium-ion batteries.  Fire departments are worried about how to deal with battery fires in crashed electric cars as well. The amount of power being stored in EV batteries (over 100KW/h ) makes them similar to a bomb waiting to go off. And the amount of toxic fumes released in a Li-Ion battery fire are equivalent to all of Saddam Husseins 'weapons of mass destruction' put together LOL

Remember the problems with Boeing Dreamliner aircraft fires a a few years ago and you still cannot transport Li-ion on passenger aircraft.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/23/lithium-ion-batteries-banned-as-cargo-on-passenger-flights (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/23/lithium-ion-batteries-banned-as-cargo-on-passenger-flights)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 12, 2017, 09:44:08 PM
Personally, I will never have an electric car, for various reason. Unless of course I win the lottery. Then I will have a BMW i8 in my stable!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on July 13, 2017, 09:40:14 AM
The truth is we have idiots in charge of our energy policies.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/05/wind-turbines-are-neither-clean-nor-green-and-they-provide-zero-global-energy/ (https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/05/wind-turbines-are-neither-clean-nor-green-and-they-provide-zero-global-energy/)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest1372 on July 13, 2017, 09:54:04 AM
Then I will have a BMW i8 in my stable
My next door neighbour in Yorkshire has one - has never plugged it in, and in my London parking structure another i8 and an Audi R8 share three spaces as they are too wide for a standard bay (plus there are no sockets in the reserved spaces); be interesting to see what they fetch at end of lease - new they are £100k.  Chevrolet Bolt (not Volt) is a fantastic car, shame about the badge snob factor, and that an RHD version is unlikely by GM.

After getting a briefing on the new Audi A8, it seems obvious that we will all be getting 'mild hybrid' cars over the next decade as cars standardise on a 48V power subsystem with limited storage in addition to the 12V cold start battery.
--
TG
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on July 13, 2017, 12:28:38 PM
I wonder how the real cost of the charging compares with petrol? A 100kWh battery would cost £15 to £20 to fully charge at current domestic tariffs. Free / subsidised charging will disappear as the number of electric vehicles increases.

Hybrid has a lot of potential as (i) there's the recovery of energy lost to braking and (ii) it allows the engine to spend more of its time operating under the most efficient conditions. Honda's Mk 2 Jazz hybrid was a bit half baked as both the battery (a heavy lead acid lump) and motor/generator were of limited capacity. A hybrid version of the Mk 3 Jazz is sold in some parts of the world but not here.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 13, 2017, 01:00:59 PM
My next door neighbour in Yorkshire has one - has never plugged it in, and in my London parking structure another i8 and an Audi R8 share three spaces as they are too wide for a standard bay (plus there are no sockets in the reserved spaces); be interesting to see what they fetch at end of lease - new they are £100k. 
True, but if I win the lottery none of that will make a blind bit of difference to me! I'd probably use all three bays, lengthwise!!!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on July 13, 2017, 01:07:44 PM
Some good points John. At some stage the decline in tax revenues will force change. I also agree that, as the ICE disappears or certainly gets banned from use in highly populated areas and EVs become the norm then the need for subsidies to attract people to buy them will become less.

In the meantime, I still think hybrids have a role to play in the air quality stakes.

The elephant in the room though, is the advent of fully autonomous vehicles. That might change the whole concept of owning a car if you can just summon one up. Not sure I could make the leap from owning a car but I think I'll be pushing up daisies by the time this takes off completely.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 13, 2017, 01:33:16 PM
but I think I'll be pushing up daisies by the time this takes off completely.

Yes, it is not high on my worry list either. I started driving when petrol was 4/4d a gallon, and MOT's and the breathalyser were well in the future!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on July 13, 2017, 02:56:42 PM
The elephant in the room though, is the advent of fully autonomous vehicles. That might change the whole concept of owning a car if you can just summon one up. Not sure I could make the leap from owning a car but I think I'll be pushing up daisies by the time this takes off completely.

IMHO people who haven't left school yet will also be pushing up daisies before fully autonomous cars are ready for the road and can handle everything that both other vehicles and mother nature can throw at them = things that us mere humans take in our stride and even the dumbest driver can handle - the best they can do at the moment if they hit and unexpected situation is stop where they are.  As for car ownership,  our car is a great source of pride to most of us,  do you really want to share a vehicle with thousands of others ??

The legal stuff will need massive sorting out,  for instance do you need a driving licence to 'be in charge' of an AV,  if the car crashes whose fault is it, the maker of the car,  the software supplier, the other vehicle (if one involved).  I have seen videos of present day 'state of the art' AV's on trial even just on test tracks suddenly veer into barriers or cross to the other side of the road for no reason,  and the LIDAR they use does not have the resolution to pick up objects (even car sized ones) that are too far from the car,  drivers report vehicles not even attempting to brake when approaching stationary traffic queues.

There is a roadmap of 5 levels set out for autonomous vehicles #5 being fully autonomous with no one in charge of the vehicle,  level 5 is a distant dream according to most experts.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on July 13, 2017, 03:18:27 PM
No I don't and that's why I am secretly relieved it's a longish way down the track. I sense upcoming generations have a different mind set though.

PS

Sorry - just to be clear - I agree I don't fancy sharing a car. Not even keen on anybody driving my car.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on July 13, 2017, 04:05:00 PM
No I don't and that's why I am secretly relieved it's a longish way down the track. I sense upcoming generations have a different mind set though.

PS

Sorry - just to be clear - I agree I don't fancy sharing a car. Not even keen on anybody driving my car.

It is actually surprising that polls show that many young people don't like electric cars,  and are not keen on autonomous ones either.   Our roads would soon be clogged with driverless cars scooting around, maybe empty on their way to pick up an indian takeaway or to pick kids up from school.

I you missed this BBC Horizon program recently it is worth a watch on i-player  -horizon-2017-dawn-of-the-driverless-car
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on July 13, 2017, 05:46:44 PM
I did see the Horizon programme - it was interesting.

I suppose one thing we have all probably learned over the years - predictions about the future have a habit of being proved wide of the mark - paperless office anyone?!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 13, 2017, 05:52:10 PM
predictions about the future have a habit of being proved wide of the mark
Anyone who watched "Tomorrows World" can vouch for that.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on July 13, 2017, 08:57:11 PM
Indeed!

TV didn't kill radio - it didn't even kill cinema or theatre.

Culzean touches on an important point about pride of ownership and there is something else. A lot of us will take some pride and even enjoyment in the skills involved in driving - is automating these skills necessarily a good thing?

We often see the word "artisan" being used to describe anything from cheese to beer if it is made by traditional methods - there is still a desire to do stuff rather than let a machine do it all.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 13, 2017, 09:12:54 PM
Just watched the Horizon programme. Really looking forward to bullying the autonomous cars. A bit like driving a banger and forcing your way in on a 17 reg shiny!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on July 13, 2017, 09:35:01 PM
Just watched the Horizon programme. Really looking forward to bullying the autonomous cars. A bit like driving a banger and forcing your way in on a 17 reg shiny!

Looking forward to another source of amusement on the roads as well.

I think roads will have to change before autonomous vehicles can even be considered,  maybe guide wires buried under roads and special transponders or similar built into traffic lights and speed limit signs as a minimum.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest1372 on July 14, 2017, 12:49:08 AM
I believe that all manufactures will have drivetrains similar to that of the new Audi A8 fairly soon with a small motor/generator in place of the traditional alternator.  There has been widespread consensus in the automotive supply chain to move to 48V systems as the number of drivetrain electric motors is rapidly increasing (suspension, engine control and even in turbochargers) this will save weight and reduce cable size, but for efficiency the power demands and surplus must be averaged out.  What Audi have done is introduce a continuously engaged belt driven alternator starter motor (BAS) with a small 48V 10Ah Li-ion battery, this extends the idle-stop concept to while the car is moving.  This motor can keep the car coasting for a minute or generate power while decelerating, it's also used to start the engine (except for initial cold starting when a conventional 12V Pb battery and pinion starter is used).  In the Audi it's smart as it also uses the navigation system and road/traffic sensors to predict when to coast/generate/or start the ICE.

This car meets level 3 autonomy when faced with a congested dual carriageway (Tesla Autopilot is level 2; if you only need to get in the back seat it's level 5 of 5).  The car's ability to understand it's environment of approaching cyclists along the kerb or weaving in front, white line motor bikes, cars approaching perpendicularly etc. is quite awesome (and a few bits of it are British).  The variety of ultrasonic, optical, infra red and laser sensors enable the car to build a very detailed picture of kerbs, white lines, vegetation, and lifeforms.

One other factor leading towards autonomy is the recent ratification of the V2x wireless protocol (vehicle to everything), this will enable cars to broadcast data up to 500m.  Listeners may be other cars, traffic control systems etc.  For example if a car performed hard braking, listeners behind can take appropriate action, it would also enable cars to convoy more effectively, plus the vehicle mode could respond to environmental inputs such as air quality zones.
--
TG
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on July 14, 2017, 06:42:11 AM
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/98964/electric-car-growth-to-ramp-up-pressure-on-energy-providers (http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/98964/electric-car-growth-to-ramp-up-pressure-on-energy-providers)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on July 14, 2017, 07:54:03 AM
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/98964/electric-car-growth-to-ramp-up-pressure-on-energy-providers (http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/98964/electric-car-growth-to-ramp-up-pressure-on-energy-providers)
That problem can be addressed by having variable tariffs depending on time of day when the power is used which can be easily implemented once everyone has a smart meter.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 14, 2017, 08:35:05 AM
I already have that for my storage heating and water heater.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: pb82gh3 on July 14, 2017, 09:02:33 AM
And what about hackers?- I can imagine them having a field day. The whole country could be brought  to a grinding halt by those pesky Russians.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on July 14, 2017, 10:36:43 AM
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/98964/electric-car-growth-to-ramp-up-pressure-on-energy-providers (http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/98964/electric-car-growth-to-ramp-up-pressure-on-energy-providers)
That problem can be addressed by having variable tariffs depending on time of day when the power is used which can be easily implemented once everyone has a smart meter.

If energy companies ever introduce variable tariffs they will be  Tarrif 1. expensive.   Tarriff 2. very expensive.
And a special meter on your car charger  and government get 80% in tax.  It is the fact that you needed to keep coal fired stations running all the time (can't suddenly switch them on and off) that bought in 'economy 7' as otherwise electricity generated overnight would have gone to waste,  with gas powered it is easier to control the energy that is generated,  and with solar you don't get any at night,  and with wind not so much.

Our leader blind faith in Solar (only works in daytime and in UK makes most of its power when not needed,  in daylight in summer)  and wind (only works when the wind blows in 'goldilocks zone',  but if wind blows too much or not enough does not work either).

Governments have a great track record of waiting until enough people have been lured into a fuel source and then when they are committed introducing a tax on that fuel.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on July 14, 2017, 12:49:51 PM
One of the issues with renewables - especially wind - is that it often produces surges of power which can overload the grid. They then have to be turned off by the grid.

I am no expert but I've read a bit about the inadequacy of the grid - its lack of flexibility. Wider use of electric vehicles, especially if charged at home and at night will even out that particular trough in demand.

Then there's Elon Musk and his Tesla power wall. He certainly thinks battery storage is the future.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: VicW on July 14, 2017, 03:06:24 PM
That problem can be addressed by having variable tariffs depending on time of day when the power is used which can be easily implemented once everyone has a smart meter.

This system already exists in the form of the Economy 7 tariff.
The Smart Meter body has recently admitted that smart meters are not going to be compulsory so not every household will have one.

Vic.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: RichardA on July 23, 2017, 03:25:43 PM
Of the current crop of electric vehicles I think the PHEV models are probably the best bet. Assuming you have your home charger you can probably run "electric" for a load of your normal running about. In my case that would be about 50 - 60% of my motoring. You then have the "hybrid mode" for the rest. The Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV does about 30 miles on battery alone.

I worked with a couple of engineers who had Outlanders as company vehicles,  they say don't rely on more than 20 miles on a full battery (it is a heavy vehicle and the battery weighs 500kg) - after that 30mpg and only a relatively small fuel tank for the size of the vehicle.

Based on that it is incredible that South East Coast Ambulance use these as paramedic response vehicles.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 23, 2017, 03:42:32 PM
Auto Express got 54 mpg over 10,135 miles.
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/mitsubishi/outlander/87981/long-term-test-review-mitsubishi-outlander-phev (http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/mitsubishi/outlander/87981/long-term-test-review-mitsubishi-outlander-phev)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest5079 on July 26, 2017, 11:26:40 AM
It is ironic that HM Government has announced the ending of petrol and diesel car sales in the UK come 2040.
I have just read an  E mail from my Brother in Canada. He moves in far higher circles than I. It seems he was in conversation with somebody important to do with BC power. I assume that British Columbia only has one power company. However the gist of the conversation was that British Columbia is at present time unable to cope with the increased  power demand that will come from electric vehicles. I assume that all of British Columbia's electricity comes from Hydro electric schemes. The government/power company will have to build at least one if not more power plants to cope.
Going back to UK Governments announcement I do wonder if the oil companies will take it lying down.
Another point very rarely mentioned, I believe concrete is one of the most polluting materials. Yet here we are building this that and the other to save the planet. Lithium is a rare earth commodity  I believe, without the huge amount of copper required for motors generators etc. Why on earth can't all the interested parties sit down and work out the relative costs savings. I would suggest while petrol cars pollute diesels definitely do, if we get rid of them how much pollution will be caused by the production of  all the new power stations/wind turbines/solar panels and all of the environmental damage caused by mining and the new factories needed for the 'new' technology. The oil industry is here, the infrastructure is here revised figures tell us oil reserves are far greater than at first believed and are the oil producing countries going to sit back in penury? We have experienced what happens when they can't agree internally and enough of our armed forces have suffered as the result. How bad will it be if we in the west tell them to stick their oil. Boy is this a conversation piece.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: pb82gh3 on July 26, 2017, 11:46:49 AM
These are the factors the environmentalists conveniently omit from their arguments. Electric cars with zero emissions alone don't tell anything like the whole story. Combine that with UK's lamentable electricity production "planning" - we are frighteningly near to blackouts and rationing should a hard winter hit us, even with a tiny number of electric cars and hybrids - and you have a vivid demonstration of the incompetence  of the Department of Energy and Climate Change.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 26, 2017, 12:00:34 PM
If you have not already seen it, watch this presentation. And it doesn't even touch on where the electricity will come from!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BWJcpesr6A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BWJcpesr6A)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on July 26, 2017, 12:59:56 PM
I guess a lot depends on the grid and how that works. Figures I've seen indicate that 95% of EV charging is done at night when the grid is relatively quiet and can probably run on renewables. There are huge strides being made in battery technology as well enabling storage. I am no expert but I don't think you can just dismiss the potential demise of fossil fuels as unrealistic or impossible. 2040 is 23 years hence. That is a positive eternity in technological terms.

At some point oil will run out even if reserves are higher than we first thought and much of the remaining oil will be hard to get at like the tar sands in Canada. We should be aiming for a world free of fossil fuels even if that does mean nuclear to provide a baseload.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on July 26, 2017, 04:49:08 PM
Figures I've seen indicate that 95% of EV charging is done at night when the grid is relatively quiet and can probably run on renewables.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/25/new-diesel-petrol-cars-banned-uk-roads-2040-government-unveils/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/25/new-diesel-petrol-cars-banned-uk-roads-2040-government-unveils/)

The grid is probably only quiet between 12 midnight and 5 am - most electric vehicles need a longer charge time than that.

Solar power does not work at night,  and in winter in UK we have a lot of night and not much day, we also have a lot of clouds in UK which reduce output of solar.   I drive past a lot of wind farms and often see most or all of the generators not rotating,  wind often drops at night when the driver of wind ie. mainly the difference in temperature between land and sea, tend to equalise out.  The truth is we no longer have a steady, reliable source of electrical energy once we go away from coal, gas and nuclear.  Our energy planners live on a different planet to us mere mortals,  a place where the sun shines 24/7 and the wind is always blowing in the 'goldilocks zone' of 20 to 40 mph where wind power is viable.

Storing gigawatts of power in batteries is gonna need an awful lot of batteries and infrastructure, and we all know that a charged battery is like a bomb,  put too many in one place and you have another potential Chernobyl. 

electric vehicles - the inconvenient truth video
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6GeHnMwl1c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6GeHnMwl1c)     
at about 11 minutes in even the CEO of Panasonic batteries (who make batteries for Tesla) says Elon Musk is wasting his time trying to store large amounts of energy using batteries.

Oh,  and has anyone noticed that when electricity is used in a vehicle the makers don't classify it as a fuel,  because apparently some vehicles can go many miles without using any fuel.

I would have more faith in a government that scrapped the HS2 white elephant vanity project that is out of date even before they start building it and spent the money on new nuclear power stations.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on July 27, 2017, 10:50:02 AM
Agree on HS2 and nuclear. I think we need a supply of energy that can meet what I think they call baseload. I also wonder what has happened to nuclear fusion?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: bill888 on July 27, 2017, 11:16:14 AM
Perhaps the oil companies will propose building clean oil powered electricity power stations to cope with all these electric cars :-)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on July 27, 2017, 12:00:31 PM
Agree on HS2 and nuclear. I think we need a supply of energy that can meet what I think they call baseload. I also wonder what has happened to nuclear fusion?


For me Nuclear fusion is in the same basket as self driving cars on our standard unmodified roads mixing with normal traffic,  a nice idea but unachievable in practice.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 27, 2017, 01:11:49 PM
"Self driving cars", Level 3, will never be a success as they still require an alert human to supervise them. However, "Driverless cars", Level 4 and 5 will work and could take to the road today if the powers that be wished it. Even at their current level they are safer than a car driven by a human driver.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on July 27, 2017, 02:46:26 PM
Agree on HS2 and nuclear. I think we need a supply of energy that can meet what I think they call baseload. I also wonder what has happened to nuclear fusion?

I have my Mr Fusion on order. Where I'm going, I don't need roads...
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on July 27, 2017, 02:52:14 PM
"Self driving cars", Level 3, will never be a success as they still require an alert human to supervise them. However, "Driverless cars", Level 4 and 5 will work and could take to the road today if the powers that be wished it. Even at their current level they are safer than a car driven by a human driver.

I disagree,  us humans can make decisions in situations that would leave a 'driverless car' floundering or dangerous,  even indistinct lane markings or lines in the road that are not supposed to be there can cause autonomous car to do stupid and dangerous things, all a human would do is curse the 'bloody local council' and carry on.   I was involved in automation of machines, factories and warehouses for more years than i like to think about and I know how difficult it is to get closed, well routed systems working properly 100% of the time, I can well imagine how difficult it can be to get totally random systems like the traffic on our roads anywhere near the level it needs to be to 'be safer than human driver'.    There is so much hype around EV and autonomous vehicles at the moment I do not believe a fraction of it.  No company wants to be left behind and they are claiming stuff that is not currently workable.  I have seen programs and videos of autonomous vehicles,  even on test tracks doing stupid things like suddenly crossing onto other side of track or crashing into barriers for no explicable reason.  Self driving cars are like something from 'tomorrows world TV program' at the moment - and how many of those things came into mainstream use.

I worry about sensors getting coated with squashed insects, dust, mud or snow and ice, this would cripple the cars systems and the only safe thing it could do is come to a halt exactly where it is,  maybe in the centre lane of a motorway or on an off-ramp.  AI works well in certain set-piece situations,  but it needs an enormous amount of time and work to even come close to a human brains ability to reason and make decisions in real time about random events.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on July 27, 2017, 03:01:14 PM
I am working in AI now and I could not agree more with Culzean. What AI is starting to do now is learn from humans by observing what we do in every situation. The problem is, with the variability of driving these days, the amount of observation and trial by error tp be done will take many years. The only way it could work, even given today's latest t technology, would be for us all to have it fitted and switched off, but in observation mode, recording real world scenarios and human decisions, for many years, before enough data exists for the AI to take over.

Only if every single car had AI driving fitted and they all followed absolutely identical rules and behaviours (none of this Volvo AI vs BMW AI nonsense), and they all communicated in real time with each other about where they are, what speed, direction, acceleration, vehicle condition, weather, what they have seen, all of that - then everything would be wonderful and safe, and so incredibly dull.

But imagine a Volvo AI car approaching an BMW AI car and then something unexpected happens. How can one type of AI anticipate the other types behaviour? Or if a collision is inevitable? Does the car carrying a pair of pensioners head for a tree to save the lives or a car carrying a young family?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 27, 2017, 03:14:14 PM
Does the car carrying a pair of pensioners head for a tree to save the lives or a car carrying a young family?
I think it is the Google autonomous car that is currently programmed to protect the occupants, so to avoid injury to it's one of two passengers it will happily mow down a group of children!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest1372 on July 27, 2017, 03:30:33 PM
....and they all communicated in real time with each other about where they are, what speed, direction, acceleration, vehicle condition, weather, what they have seen, all of that - then everything would be wonderful and safe, and so incredibly dull.  ....How can one type of AI anticipate the other types behaviour?
The V2X (vehicle to everything) protocol has recently been ratified, although much work will still to be need to be done on the vocabulary.  This will let everything interested in a ~500m area listen for broadcasts, i.e. the hard breaking car hidden by the van in front will alert followers.  Maybe this will mean green traffic lights more often, or not? "Turn green, I'm a VIP approaching"

http://www.st.com/en/applications/automotive-and-transportation/vehicle-to-everything-v2x.html (http://www.st.com/en/applications/automotive-and-transportation/vehicle-to-everything-v2x.html)

"Not every car is going to turn into an autonomous vehicle overnight. As more V2X-enabled cars hit the streets and the V2X network becomes stronger, more information can be shared between autonomous and legacy cars. V2X users benefit from the network effect principle: V2X is designed to be a collaborative technology that gets stronger with each node that’s added to the network"
--
TG
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on July 27, 2017, 06:18:06 PM
Self driving cars will of course require dealer only servicing. Period.
At regular intervals. Period.

Any bodging could and probably  will result in multiple fatalities..
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 27, 2017, 06:42:02 PM
I tend to thing that once autonomous vehicles become common place, you will just hire one as you need it. You will call it up, it will take you where you want to go and drop you there. (I am currently reading "Driverless Car Revolution: Buy Mobility, Not Metal" by Rutt Bridges.)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest1372 on July 27, 2017, 06:46:17 PM
Self driving cars will of course require dealer only servicing. Period.
....but you won't need to own one if you live in a town, it will just turn up at your door.  One of the theories floating around is that parking will disappear and cars will just drive away to somewhere else and recharge.  Driverless operation is really best if no one is in the car, it can prioritise the safety of those around it instead; I would have loved it earlier today if I could have got out at the ritzy shop I needed to visit (with no parking) and told the car to come back in 10 minutes.

When Oslo found it could not ban vehicles from it's centre, it did the next best thing; the plan is to remove parking instead.
--
TG
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on July 31, 2017, 06:47:49 PM
If anyone is expecting wind turbines to supply electrical energy for vehicles these two articles are a reality check,  all the wind turbines achieve at the moment is to give the people who run electricity grids, (who need to provide power where and when it is needed) a headache,  because of extreme variation in wind and the effect this has on generation some countries just use wind turbines to supply power for pumped storage schemes,  where the lakes can be topped up as and when turbines decide they may generate a bit of power.  Imagine if we had to go back to wind power to move commercial ships around,  it is just too damned unreliable. 

Average output of a wind turbine annually is a small fraction of its full capacity,  which can only be utilised in winds above 30mph and below 50mph, the 'goldilocks zone' LOL

And governments continue to subsidise wind farms,  even though we have many years of experience to show they are a complete waste of time.

https://www.wind-watch.org/faq-output.php (https://www.wind-watch.org/faq-output.php)

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/05/wind-turbines-are-neither-clean-nor-green-and-they-provide-zero-global-energy/ (https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/05/wind-turbines-are-neither-clean-nor-green-and-they-provide-zero-global-energy/)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 31, 2017, 07:04:36 PM
They reckon that battery storage is the future. Battery technology is supposedly moving forward in leaps and bounds. The technology I have linked to is supposedly coming to fruition. It may not come to pass in my lifetime, but it is not that far away.
And even as late as last year Lockheed Martin were still investing heavily in their "compact fusion reactor". When these businesses throw enough money at projects, things start to happen.

http://media.ntu.edu.sg/NewsReleases/Pages/newsdetail.aspx?news=809fbb2f-95f0-4995-b5c0-10ae4c50c934 (http://media.ntu.edu.sg/NewsReleases/Pages/newsdetail.aspx?news=809fbb2f-95f0-4995-b5c0-10ae4c50c934)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on July 31, 2017, 08:51:14 PM
The main challenge is that, in order to achieve continuous controlled nuclear fusion, we have to actually recreate conditions inside the Sun. That means building a machine that's capable of producing and controlling a 100-million-degree-Celsius (180 million degree Fahrenheit) ball of plasma gas - and then somehow extract the heat from the plasma.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 31, 2017, 09:05:18 PM
A 2012 paper demonstrated that a dense plasma focus had achieved temperatures of 1.8 billion degrees Celsius, sufficient for boron fusion, and that fusion reactions were occurring primarily within the contained plasmoid, a necessary condition for net power.
In October 2014, Lockheed Martin's Skunk Works announced the development of a high-beta fusion reactor that they hope to yield a functioning 100-megawatt prototype by 2017 and to be ready for regular operation by 2022.
In October 2015, researchers at the Max Planck Institute of Plasma Physics completed building the largest stellarator to date, named Wendelstein 7-X. On December 10, they successfully produced the first helium plasma, and on February 3, 2016 produced the device's first hydrogen plasma. With plasma discharges lasting up to 30 minutes, Wendelstein 7-X will try to demonstrate the essential stellarator attribute: continuous operation of a high-temperature hydrogen plasma.
So it is not that far off. Maybe not in my lifetime but not long after.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on July 31, 2017, 10:39:47 PM
More generally, on electric cars and autonomous cars, I think the boffins are getting ahead of themselves as witnessed by the Horizon programme on BBC4 this evening.

We have 30 million cars on UK roads, mostly ICE and ICE cars are still in production and will be for some time to come. I think I'm right in saying that the UK fleet adds and loses about 2 million vehicles a year so it'll take a long time for the current fleet of vehicles to be replaced even allowing for incentives etc. Added to which polling indicates that 50% of people don't want autonomous cars.

It will come but it's a long way down the track. I'm old enough to remember the paperless office and the claim that nuclear energy would be so cheap it wouldn't be worth sending out bills!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 01, 2017, 07:33:53 AM
I watched that programme last time it was on. Interesting even if tainted by usual BBC bias.
Up until a few weeks ago I was very sceptical about electric cars in general and particularly "Driverless" cars. I then watched a presentation on YouTube which made me stop and think. I then started researching what I had seen (one of the benefits of sitting at home most of the day) and began to see the possibilities. I am currently reading a book by the same guy who gave the original presentation, and it is very enlightening.
One thing to make clear though, there is a huge gulf between electric cars we were initially discussing here and autonomous vehicles. Electric cars are here, now, and will ultimately totally replace ICE powered vehicles. There will still be some ICE vehicles around, just as there are still a few Model T's going about, but eventually they will be in the hands of a few enthusiasts.
Autonomous vehicles are in the future, but with the take over of EV's (Electric Vehicles), or as I have seen them described, EEV's (Emissions Elsewhere Vehicles), autonomous vehicles will become even more of a likelihood.
So much of what we see about so called driverless cars, at the moment, are just driver assisted, which even the boffins and aficionados realise are dangerous. I get bored and inattentive on a quiet motorway using cruise control, never mind having the car steering and maintaining a gap for me too. When a driver has nothing to do but monitor the car, accidents will happen. If two pilots in an airliner, "monitoring", can fly an hour past their destination, what chance has the poor, inattentive driver got. After all, we make a hash of it when we are concentrating!
Here are the links, again, to what has changed my mind about autonomous vehicles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BWJcpesr6A&t=954s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BWJcpesr6A&t=954s)

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00WS1S4AM/ref=oh_aui_d_detailpage_o08_?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00WS1S4AM/ref=oh_aui_d_detailpage_o08_?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 01, 2017, 07:43:49 AM
Rolls Royce are skipping hybrids and going straight to full electric.

http://www.businessinsider.com/rolls-royce-to-skip-hybrids-and-go-straight-to-electric-cars-2017-7?IR=T (http://www.businessinsider.com/rolls-royce-to-skip-hybrids-and-go-straight-to-electric-cars-2017-7?IR=T)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 01, 2017, 08:35:22 AM
The danger of centralising your fuel supply is evident,  if the electric grid goes down no-one gets to work - and what happened in Canada a few years ago where a solar flare can put your whole electrical system out of action for a long time may get more common if the sun gets 'angrier'.  If we had been reliant on electrified cars and trains in WW2 we would have lost the war very quickly, the Germans would have just bombed power stations (as any other enemy could today, including terrorists),  the whole country would have ground to a halt in a couple of weeks.  The only thing that kept UK going was the fact that fuel was de-centralised and easy to store,  steam trains ran on plentiful, easily available coal and road vehicles ran on  petrol which was scarce during the war but there was enough,  and it was so randomly stored that Jerry couldn't knock it all out with a couple of bombs.

I bet the military will never use EV (it is called putting all your eggs in one basket) it would make them too vulnerable to losing electrical power, and when you invade a country the first think that goes out is the electricity supply - and if you use big generators I guess they will be fossil powered,  as wind and solar farms stick out like a sore thumb and easily put out of action - also vehicles immobilised at charging stations would make easy pickings.   

Planes could not fly without fossil fuel,  the energy to weight ratio of fossil fuels makes powered flight possible on a commercial scale (there have been electric aircraft,  but they can just about carry themselves,  let alone any useful cargo or passengers). 

Fossil fuel will be around for a long time yet,  with new commercially viable sources being discovered regularly.

No car maker can afford not to be on the EV 'bandwagon'  and until a lot of the hype has died down and we can see the wood through the trees there will be claims and counterclaims of great innovations and progress, polls suggest that 50% of people don't want EV, Tesla has not made a cent in profit in 10 years, and the initial cost of EV and rapid depreciation make buying a new one out of the question for a lot of people,  and for cheap second hand ones to be available someone has to buy new and take a hit (or lease and take a hit)  at present time battery lease cost for a eg. a Nissan leaf is £70 per month and upwards some people don't even buy that much fuel a month,  to buy the battery is expensive and if it fails you pay to replace it I guess.

Chemicals and metals needed for batteries, magnets for motors, and conductors etc are trashing the environment big time,  so where is the gain for humanity.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 01, 2017, 10:13:22 AM
I know this thread was originally about "electric" cars but as we have also strayed into autonomous vehicles it is worth mentioning that autonomous vehicles do not need to be powered by electricity. It is quite feasible to have an autonomous vehicle powered by an internal combustion engine, or indeed by hybrid power. Modern commercial airliners are pretty much autonomous, or at least, can be, and they continue to burn hydrocarbons and will do for quite some time. I can see a time in the not too distant future when pilot-less aircraft will fly all over the world, still burning the fuel they do now.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest5079 on August 01, 2017, 01:39:44 PM
Sent from Canada, about an article July 29th in the Daily Mail, I will try to get the link, it explains a lot but gives cause for concern. 
http://www (http://www),dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-4734028/Electric-cars-numbering-9m-need-powered-someview.html
Sorry if not a direct link as a I am computer illiterate but it is an interesting perspective.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 01, 2017, 04:27:56 PM
Sent from Canada, about an article July 29th in the Daily Mail, I will try to get the link, it explains a lot but gives cause for concern. 
http://www (http://www),dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-4734028/Electric-cars-numbering-9m-need-powered-someview.html
Sorry if not a direct link as a I am computer illiterate but it is an interesting perspective.

Found it by chopping bits out of your link,  it is what I said,  we are not ready with anywhere near enough generating capacity for EV,  wind turbines are a white elephant that has cost taxpayers loads of money for no return except to make controlling the grid a lot harder,  we have still not got any nuclear properly planned,  and as the article says new fossil fuel supplies are being found almost daily and oil is cheaper than it has been in a long time,  so it seems that if the answer is electric vehicles someone has asked the wrong question.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-4734028/Electric-cars-numbering-9m-need-powered-somehow.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-4734028/Electric-cars-numbering-9m-need-powered-somehow.html)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest1372 on August 01, 2017, 04:57:29 PM
.... Tesla has not made a cent in profit in 10 years,
As an investor I'm quite happy about that, this is the time for growth and investment.  If you put £5k of TSLA in your ISA or SIPP in 2013 it's now worth £50k, again quite happy about that. Mkt Cap is greater than Ford, GM and BMW.

Elon Musk "If something is important enough, even if the odds are against you, you should still do it."
--
TG
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on August 01, 2017, 05:01:54 PM
I live in an area subject to infrequent but lengthy blackouts (hours)

Anyone depending on electricity in cold weather in winter gets very cold. Anyone depending on electricity for transport is a muppet.

And when it does get cold, you can take all the theoretical sums on grid capacity and range and throw them in the bin...Ranges halve and demand doubles...  a recipe for more blackouts.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 01, 2017, 05:02:41 PM
I truly believe that electric cars will never become "big" during my lifetime. For a start, the UK doesn't have enough electricity capacity to charge huge fleets of electric vehicles. We are on the verge of brownouts now. And where do you charge them? Most motorists don't have off street parking near their house.
They just built a new hospital wing here in Kirkcaldy and put in charging bays in the car park. Two of them!
Tesla's Supercharger supposedly gives 80% charge in 45 minutes, but even Tesla takes overnight to charge from a home charger.
As I said right back at the beginning of the thread, the UK does not have the power generating or distribution capacity.
If you thought installing cable TV to our streets was a nightmare, can you imagine the problems installing charger points. Edinburgh city centre was brought to its knees while they did preparatory work for the trams. That sort of work would have to take place all over the country.
There will be a steady uptake of people who have the ability to charge their vehicles and as technology improves charging will become easier, but we still lack the power generating capacity. Some counties will manage the change.

I don't know about others here, but my life seems to be governed by battery charging at the moment. If it is not the laptop its my razor, toothbrush, Fitbit, tablet, phone, wife's phone or some of the many AA and AAA rechargeable batteries we have all round the house!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 01, 2017, 05:30:07 PM
.... Tesla has not made a cent in profit in 10 years,
As an investor I'm quite happy about that, this is the time for growth and investment.  If you put £5k of TSLA in your ISA or SIPP in 2013 it's now worth £50k, again quite happy about that. Mkt Cap is greater than Ford, GM and BMW.

Elon Musk "If something is important enough, even if the odds are against you, you should still do it."
--
TG

I remember the dot com boom,  where companies were over capitalised on 'future growth potential' and investors were firstly taken in,  and then taken to the cleaners.   A company that is over-capitalised has another name,  'a bubble'.   I wish Musk Well for sticking his neck out,  but there is grave concern whether his buying of solar city (which was started by members of his family, basically he has bailed his family out of debt and transferred their debts to the investors in Tesla motors pockets LOL) has put a millstone round his companies neck,  and also grave concern if Tesla can ever make enough cars at the right price to make a profit,  and pretty soon all the established vehicle makers will be moving in on the territory that he has had to himself up to now.

Tesla owners taking out a class action against the company due to its 'dangerous autopilot 2' system - which operates in an erratic and dangerous manner.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-04-20/tesla-tumbles-after-recalling-over-50000-cars-suvs (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-04-20/tesla-tumbles-after-recalling-over-50000-cars-suvs)

http://suremoneyinvestor.com/2016/06/heres-why-tesla-is-a-giant-ponzi-scheme/ (http://suremoneyinvestor.com/2016/06/heres-why-tesla-is-a-giant-ponzi-scheme/)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 02, 2017, 07:27:06 AM
I was directed to this excellent presentation. Well worth 40 minutes of anyone's time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eOFokM3lUI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eOFokM3lUI)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 02, 2017, 10:11:15 AM
I was directed to this excellent presentation. Well worth 40 minutes of anyone's time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eOFokM3lUI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eOFokM3lUI)

He is flying in the face of other scientists and statistics that have been available to date after 10+ years of NOT getting power from wind,  people talk about the 'amount of wind power installed' ie they just add up the total power of all installed turbines in the world and ignore the fact they are only 15 to 20% efficient.  Sure taller ones will get more wind but they are also harder to build,  take more resource and have more impact on birds and the local environment.  When these people talk about wind supplying 6% of power,  they are talking about installed capacity rather than what these things actually produce.  You could cover the whole land area of the planet with wind turbines and still not meet demand,  but the cost to the planet in energy (to make concrete and steel etc.) and resource would be immense.

There is also a growing body of opinion that solar panels actually add to climate change,  they are a very dark colour, are not very efficient - only converting a small fraction of the absorbed energy into electrical power and reflect / radiate the rest as heat (typically less than 10% , more efficient ones are available but at the moment prohibitively expensive ).   Also all energy ends up as heat (yes even the energy that runs your fridge) so any electricity produced by anything is going to end up as heat.

The bloke who coined the phrase 'there is no such thing as a free lunch' never dreamed that one day it would apply to electrical energy LOL.

The problem is that both wind and solar do not produce electricity continuously, solar does not produce much power in our winter (when we need it most) and as for wind, well it does not produce much anytime but still needs external electric supply to function.   Storage of power will involve chemically nasty batteries which take resource and power both to produce and dispose of / recycle.  This means that you still need to back up these power supplies with other more reliable sources,  so we come back to nuclear or fossil fuels (or geo-thermal heat pumps which means for every 1KW you put in you may get 4 KW back, but which still needs external power to run pumps etc.)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest5079 on August 02, 2017, 11:24:19 AM
Going back to the late 60's early 70's my in laws had a small business in North Cornwall, a small farmer
customer used to come in a chat to pa in law.
Because his holding was not big enough to support him and his family, he had a job 'down west near Falmouth', where they were drilling into the granite. The object was thermal energy, ie using the heat of the rocks to heat water for steam.
I have no idea what happened to that, I do know they had reached the hot rocks. I am not aware if the scheme progressed
Apart from the mess of the drilling that surely is clean energy..
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on August 02, 2017, 01:51:40 PM
Going back to the late 60's early 70's my in laws had a small business in North Cornwall, a small farmer
customer used to come in a chat to pa in law.
Because his holding was not big enough to support him and his family, he had a job 'down west near Falmouth', where they were drilling into the granite. The object was thermal energy, ie using the heat of the rocks to heat water for steam.
I have no idea what happened to that, I do know they had reached the hot rocks. I am not aware if the scheme progressed
Apart from the mess of the drilling that surely is clean energy..
Geothermal energy is well established in some parts of the world but is only now arriving in Cornwall http://www.cornwalllive.com/geothermal-power-plant-could-be-built-near-redruth-in-cornish-energy-revolution/story-30404776-detail/story.html (http://www.cornwalllive.com/geothermal-power-plant-could-be-built-near-redruth-in-cornish-energy-revolution/story-30404776-detail/story.html). It was probably necessary for costs to come down to make it worthwhile using whatever the Cornish rock temperature is.

Tidal and wave energy are both relatively reliable sources but the UK hasn't yet put much effort in their utilisation.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: VicW on August 02, 2017, 02:35:05 PM
Remaining off topic but still about electricity consumption, allegedly the planet is getting warmer so the use and installation of home air conditioning is on the increase. Domestic aircon units consume electricity so will be a further drain on our already marginal supplies.

Vic.


Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 02, 2017, 02:36:33 PM
France built the worlds first tidal power station in 1966, but tidal power has been used since the Middle Ages.

The worlds first large tidal farm was launched in Scotland last September.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/sep/12/worlds-first-large-scale-tidal-energy-farm-launches-scotland (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/sep/12/worlds-first-large-scale-tidal-energy-farm-launches-scotland)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 02, 2017, 03:58:48 PM
http://www.cornwalllive.com/cornwall-could-be-on-the-verge-of-a-mining-revolution-as-vast-reserves-of-precious-lithium-found/story-30068912-detail/story.html (http://www.cornwalllive.com/cornwall-could-be-on-the-verge-of-a-mining-revolution-as-vast-reserves-of-precious-lithium-found/story-30068912-detail/story.html)

Apparently Cornwall is the only place in Europe with large deposits of Lithium.  Looks like we will be selling Lithium to the  EU.   Oh how sweet that is -  economists describe Lithium as 'white petroleum' - we could become the Saudi Arabia of Europe LOL
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 03, 2017, 07:16:29 AM
Tesla have just announced a huge jump in revenue for the three months to end of June, but losses have also increased. Still, the investors are happy with another jump in their share price.
I have decided that if I win the lottery it is a Tesla P100D for me. Only about £160K.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 03, 2017, 09:09:53 AM
Tesla have just announced a huge jump in revenue for the three months to end of June, but losses have also increased. Still, the investors are happy with another jump in their share price.
I have decided that if I win the lottery it is a Tesla P100D for me. Only about £160K.

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/tough-week-tesla-after-safety-downgrade-sinking-stocks-n780166 (http://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/tough-week-tesla-after-safety-downgrade-sinking-stocks-n780166)

Tesla also running into labour problems as they pay lowest wages and their plants have worker injury levels that are too high.  Their quality control has also (kindly I think) been described as 'patchy'.

Tesla could get even further into the mire if their proposed 'high speed' tunnel between New York and Washington goes ahead.

http://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/elon-musk-says-he-has-verbal-approval-his-latest-wild-n784906 (http://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/elon-musk-says-he-has-verbal-approval-his-latest-wild-n784906)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 03, 2017, 09:31:06 AM
I'd still go for one if money wasn't a problem.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on August 03, 2017, 02:06:37 PM
http://www.cornwalllive.com/cornwall-could-be-on-the-verge-of-a-mining-revolution-as-vast-reserves-of-precious-lithium-found/story-30068912-detail/story.html (http://www.cornwalllive.com/cornwall-could-be-on-the-verge-of-a-mining-revolution-as-vast-reserves-of-precious-lithium-found/story-30068912-detail/story.html)

Apparently Cornwall is the only place in Europe with large deposits of Lithium.  Looks like we will be selling Lithium to the  EU.   Oh how sweet that is -  economists describe Lithium as 'white petroleum' - we could become the Saudi Arabia of Europe LOL

Independence for Cornwall.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest5079 on August 04, 2017, 02:40:59 PM
Being an old fart, the TV is more of a companion than perhaps it should be.
Last evening a program called 'How it's made'.
They did a bit on copper production. Depending where the deposits are controls the method of extracting the copper from the ore.
Well if ever there was a case for the anti pollution people there it was.
In one case they were pouring molten slag down the side of what started as a hill.
Given the proportion of copper in the ore can nobody come up with an alternative? Tis no wonder it is so costly.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 04, 2017, 03:37:14 PM
The amount of extra copper needed to replace all motor vehicles with electric ones would only be a drop in the ocean compared with the amount of copper that is currently used  for general wiring and current motor production. I spent a year as an Electrical Maintenance Supervisor with a company manufacturing cables. The amount of copper used is phenomenal, and at huge cost financially and environmentally.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 05, 2017, 03:27:31 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/26/treasury-tax-electric-cars-vat-fuel-duty (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/26/treasury-tax-electric-cars-vat-fuel-duty)

We just knew it would happen, we all get extra 15% VAT on our bills because people can charge their cars at home and government wants to make up its revenue losses from fuel duty and VED.

This is on top of recently proposed £150 a year levy on electricity bills to pay for unreliable and expensive 'renewables'.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on August 05, 2017, 04:33:36 PM
That Guardian article is semi factual but an increase in domestic energy VAT is just a subsidy to motorists.

The easiest solution is:
cut fuel taxes.
Increase VED by the equivalent value for all vehicles.
Increase VED for electric cars...

And the  raise fuel taxes again... :'(
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Garyman on August 05, 2017, 06:45:03 PM
Apologies I haven't read the entire thread but I have a great interest in EV, especially Tesla.

However, they are way out of my budget but I would buy one tomorrow if I could.

Sent from my F8331 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 05, 2017, 09:03:44 PM
Apologies I haven't read the entire thread but I have a great interest in EV, especially Tesla.

However, they are way out of my budget but I would buy one tomorrow if I could.

Sent from my F8331 using Tapatalk
Me too. I have gone from a sceptic to a believer just in the past few weeks. If I won the lottery I'd have a Tesla P100D at the drop of a hat.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on August 06, 2017, 11:33:46 AM
Me too. I've driven an electric car - a Nissan Leaf belonging to a friend and I'm a convert. Not currently in the market for a change though having had my current car just over 18 months.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 07, 2017, 09:21:20 PM
How is this for an electric car. A Porsche 911 Targa.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJLdzRJdKrs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJLdzRJdKrs)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 09, 2017, 10:15:53 AM
The more I read up on electric cars, and the more I see of them on YouTube (Robert Llewellyn's "Fully Charged is a good watch), the more enthused I get about them. Technology is racing on, pretty much following Moore's Law, and battery capacity and charging rates seem to be following the same exponential path. I think the EV and AV disciples might be on to something.
I don't think it just a random choice that has seen Softbank investing heavily in ride hailing companies.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on August 09, 2017, 11:18:31 AM
I'm pretty much the same Jocko. The technology fascinates me and, if I'm being honest, it probably trumps environmental or cost issues. There are also some interesting issues around smart grids - in Berlin engineers are looking at cars being used as battery storage and actually feeding back into the smart grid at times of high demand and taking a charge at low periods of demand.

All this is in its infancy but it will be interesting to see it develop. The ban on petrol and diesel by 2040 is also interesting because it enables the government to look as if they are doing something about air quality but the change will happen organically. There will be few ICE cars left in 23 years anyway.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 09, 2017, 03:54:56 PM
I'm pretty much the same Jocko. The technology fascinates me and, if I'm being honest, it probably trumps environmental or cost issues. There are also some interesting issues around smart grids - in Berlin engineers are looking at cars being used as battery storage and actually feeding back into the smart grid at times of high demand and taking a charge at low periods of demand.

All this is in its infancy but it will be interesting to see it develop. The ban on petrol and diesel by 2040 is also interesting because it enables the government to look as if they are doing something about air quality but the change will happen organically. There will be few ICE cars left in 23 years anyway.

The ban on petrol and diesel will only cover vehicles when the only source of propulsion is the ICE engine,  which lets out  PHEV and hybrids

Interesting about using EV batteries to top up the grid - I have seen this idea described in some articles as a 'non-starter' ,  which is just what will happen to your EV when the grid just nicked all the power out of your EV and you need to use it urgently.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 09, 2017, 04:21:14 PM
The way that solar cell technology is improving exponentially, and the prices dropping, I can see a time, very soon, when almost every house will have their own solar array. At the moment it will cost about £6000 to install, a drop in the ocean compared to the price of a new house (it may even become a requirement of getting planning permission). At present that will give 3 kW. Not a great deal, but as energy output from the cells increases, and prices and physical area required continue to fall, it will not be long before we can get 10 kW for that price. Add to that a battery Powerwall (about another £8000) and you are talking about serious Green electricity.
Battery Powerwalls are a great use for traction batteries which are past their best. Companies will buy used traction batteries, rent them out for storage use, then as they deteriorate further, swap them out and recycle them.
(As a child we had no electricity, so my dad used to rent an "accumulator" to power the radio. When it went flat he would return it to the local electrician and bring home a fresh charged one.)
So I am very positive and optimistic about the future of Electric Vehicles.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on August 09, 2017, 05:05:21 PM
Another development, and possibly why Toyota are late entrants to the pure EV scene having pioneered hybrids, is the solid state battery which, I gather, is a step change from the current crop of lithium ion batteries.

On a side issue I've been reading a bit about Dieter Helm, an economist who is to head up the Government's review into energy pricing. I'd read that some environmentalists were disturbed by his appointment. Turns out that he is a critic of the current crop of renewables and feels we need a bridge in the form of gas so that coal fired power stations can finally be scrapped. He is, however, convinced that fossil fuels are history and will be replaced by much more effective renewables and nuclear in the future. Some new developments in solar using graphene are showing promising results.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 11, 2017, 08:03:32 AM
Norway has reached 42% of new car sales being electric, with 27% of new car sales being pure EV. Seemingly, with the Norwegian tax penalties against ICE vehicles, it is almost as cheap to buy a Tesla Model X as it is a Ford Focus!
It just shows what a committed government can achieve.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 11, 2017, 09:34:25 AM
Norway has reached 42% of new car sales being electric, with 27% of new car sales being pure EV. Seemingly, with the Norwegian tax penalties against ICE vehicles, it is almost as cheap to buy a Tesla Model X as it is a Ford Focus!
It just shows what a committed government can achieve.

Yeah,  like giving huge tax breaks to EV and skewing the market,  but whenever you give tax breaks to some you are subsidising them at the cost of your tax base,   good job Norway is a rich country that gets lots of money selling oil and gas to others and can afford this kind of stuff.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/rrapier/2017/07/12/norways-oil-consumption-rises-despite-42-electric-vehicle-share/#80512687152b (https://www.forbes.com/sites/rrapier/2017/07/12/norways-oil-consumption-rises-despite-42-electric-vehicle-share/#80512687152b)

German car industry (which in Germany is more powerful than the government) is kicking back against targets for EV imposed from EU

https://global.handelsblatt.com/companies-markets/eu-gives-carmakers-electric-shock-808258?ref=NzgzMjI2&utm_source=outbrain&utm_medium=contentmarketing&utm_campaign=outbrain-UK&utm_content=EU%20Gives%20Carmakers%20Electric%20Shock&utm_term=001ec45c75908e7daa98d89e242e05ac99 (https://global.handelsblatt.com/companies-markets/eu-gives-carmakers-electric-shock-808258?ref=NzgzMjI2&utm_source=outbrain&utm_medium=contentmarketing&utm_campaign=outbrain-UK&utm_content=EU%20Gives%20Carmakers%20Electric%20Shock&utm_term=001ec45c75908e7daa98d89e242e05ac99)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 11, 2017, 09:51:26 AM
Just as our government skewed the sales of diesel engined cars here, for a number of years, by reducing the cost of the  fuel. And now they are trying to go the other way with changed to VED.
It's what governments do.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest1372 on August 11, 2017, 11:57:17 AM
Interesting article in this month's Economist* (https://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21726071-it-had-good-run-end-sight-machine-changed-world-death) on EVs, the grid & the future of oil.   One aspect I'd overlooked is the probable continuing drop in the price of oil as untapped reserves will need to be pumped /refined / sold pretty rapidly leading to wholesale price falls.  Nobody wants to be left with unsold worthless reserves in the ground, but the flip side is that we may accelerate the rate at which it's burnt.
--
TG

* Open in a private tab if you reach your reading limit.
Electric cars: The death of the internal combustion engine. It had a good run. But the end is in sight for the machine that changed the world (https://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21726071-it-had-good-run-end-sight-machine-changed-world-death)
Also: After electric cars, what more will it take for batteries to change the face of energy? (https://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21726069-no-need-subsidies-higher-volumes-and-better-chemistry-are-causing-costs-plummet-after)
(https://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/640-width/images/print-edition/20170812_FBC444_0.png)(https://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/640-width/images/print-edition/20170812_FBC859_0.png)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 11, 2017, 02:30:14 PM
Just as our government skewed the sales of diesel engined cars here, for a number of years, by reducing the cost of the  fuel. And now they are trying to go the other way with changed to VED.
It's what governments do.

If you start from the premise that governments have zero technical knowledge (after all they are mostly lawyers or accountants) but are advised by people with firmly vested interests all the stupidity (diesel cars,  wind turbines, HS2 etc.) begins to make sense.

As for the limelight seeking self-promoting Elon Musk ................https://www.forbes.com/sites/rodadams/2017/07/07/megahype-over-tesla-battery-capable-of-providing-nameplate-power-for-less-than-80-minutes/#4aed6edf4919 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/rodadams/2017/07/07/megahype-over-tesla-battery-capable-of-providing-nameplate-power-for-less-than-80-minutes/#4aed6edf4919)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 11, 2017, 02:54:19 PM
Interesting article in this month's Economist* (https://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21726071-it-had-good-run-end-sight-machine-changed-world-death) on EVs, the grid & the future of oil.   One aspect I'd overlooked is the probable continuing drop in the price of oil as untapped reserves will need to be pumped /refined / sold pretty rapidly leading to wholesale price falls.  Nobody wants to be left with unsold worthless reserves in the ground, but the flip side is that we may accelerate the rate at which it's burnt.
--
TG

* Open in a private tab if you reach your reading limit.
Electric cars: The death of the internal combustion engine. It had a good run. But the end is in sight for the machine that changed the world (https://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21726071-it-had-good-run-end-sight-machine-changed-world-death)
Also: After electric cars, what more will it take for batteries to change the face of energy? (https://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21726069-no-need-subsidies-higher-volumes-and-better-chemistry-are-causing-costs-plummet-after)
(https://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/640-width/images/print-edition/20170812_FBC444_0.png)(https://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/640-width/images/print-edition/20170812_FBC859_0.png)

Oil is going nowhere anytime soon, as Mark Twain said in London after newspapers in USA printed stories that he had died,  "reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated".

The 2040 deadline on Diesel and petrol cars does not include hybrid and PHEV vehicles,  so many people will be buying a hybrid to cash in on the low cost of hydrocarbon fuel,  and wave to the people queuing  at recharging stations as they sail past,  No-one has decided who is going to pay for and install EV charging points,  but whoever it is they will not be doing it for nothing and will want to make a profit.

Many new housing estates are being built without car parking attached to the houses, so people park in the street,  so where are they going to charge their cars,  the problems are worst in city or suburban areas,  which logically should be the home of the EV.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilwinton/2017/05/19/long-distance-electric-car-charging-problems-will-boost-plug-in-hybrids/#32fe90315f39 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilwinton/2017/05/19/long-distance-electric-car-charging-problems-will-boost-plug-in-hybrids/#32fe90315f39)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on August 11, 2017, 03:01:04 PM
I agree we will continue to need an oil industry for some time into the future - aviation fuel and heavy oil for shipping are just two areas where a non oil substitute isn't readily to hand. It is also used to manufacture plastics etc etc.

But one day it will run out and we are already now in the business of using reserves that are harder to recover. It makes sense, to me anyway, to start replacing it where we can and EVs are one way of doing that.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 11, 2017, 03:56:57 PM
I agree we will continue to need an oil industry for some time into the future - aviation fuel and heavy oil for shipping are just two areas where a non oil substitute isn't readily to hand. It is also used to manufacture plastics etc etc.

But one day it will run out and we are already now in the business of using reserves that are harder to recover. It makes sense, to me anyway, to start replacing it where we can and EVs are one way of doing that.

Fuel for vehicles is only the tip of the iceberg of what we get from oil, it touches every part of our lives with plastics and other derivatives and basically a lot of things that cannot be replaced by other resources.  There is plenty of oil left, so we will continue to extract oil and the price of fuel will drop which (unless governments poke their noses in with massive subsidies) will mean that other fuels will be costly by comparison,  renewables have been responsible for a lot of the increase we have seen in industrial and domestic power over the past few decades, because governments subsidised them to make them competitive - and when a government subsidises things it costs taxpayers and consumers money (the sad fact is that governments don't have any money,  but they have the law on their side so taking it from those who do have money that they work hard for is easy for them).

and here is a shock for people who think it is only older people who may not want an  EV

https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnkoetsier/2017/04/17/surprise-70-of-millenials-do-not-want-electric-vehicles/#95483f03f66b (https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnkoetsier/2017/04/17/surprise-70-of-millenials-do-not-want-electric-vehicles/#95483f03f66b)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 11, 2017, 04:11:16 PM
According to Justin Laney, the Commercial Vehicle Fleet Manager for John Lewis Partnership, talking at this year's nationalgrid Future Energy Scenarios, Bio-methane is the way that haulage fleets are looking to go, in the near future.
Off street parking is definitely an issue, regarding the charging of electric vehicles. I can see a time, fairly soon, where people do not own there own car. They just call up one as they need it. Driverless cars will go out of town to a charging station and charge up as required. Those people who do want/need to own their own car will charge them at rapid charging stations, possibly using inductive charging, as the prototype Rolls Royce electric car currently uses. With large capacity storage, and rapid charging, a car would be charged to 80% in little more time than it takes to fill up with petrol. Supermarkets would offer cheap charging, in their car parks, to customers. At present, petrol stations are a draw to get people to shop at a store. Charging points will be the new petrol station.
Norway has huge areas for parking and charging EV's, with free public parking for EV's, and car parks, in the likes of Oslo, that provide FREE charging.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 11, 2017, 04:47:03 PM
Norway has huge areas for parking and charging EV's, with free public parking for EV's, and car parks, in the likes of Oslo, that provide FREE charging.

You really cannot extrapolate anything from what mega rich social democrat Norway is doing,  most of its electricity comes from Hydro and most of its money comes from oil and gas.  The true test will be when EV users have to queue at charging stations to pay market rates for their 'fuel' - not when the government gives the infrastructure and fuel to them free to prove some kind of political points. And apart from Teslas (which is a status thing really lets face it) other EV are not selling well.

As the link in my last post shows, 70% of all age groups from millennials through to 80 year olds have no interest in EV (except some younger ones would want a Tesla for its street-cred value).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: olduser1 on August 11, 2017, 08:04:09 PM
I dont get all the fuss inside the earth there is no way enough cobalt for the UK let alone the continent for future EV batteries. The future is bright around here e vehicvles travel on rails & have done since 1860, self drive vehicles are buses. On the UK road small  turbo charged petrol engines can deliver some enjoyment, as for myself  my Subaru Turbo takes some beating
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 11, 2017, 08:38:31 PM
As an ex bus driver, and a bus pass holder, I am a great fan of buses. The only problem is they never pick you up where you are and never get exactly where you want to go! That's why, if we can afford it, we drive cars. One of the scenarios I read, regarding driverless cars, suggested that free driverless transport could be laid on, for the money the government/councils currently pay in subsidies to the likes of Stagecoach and First Bus!
Cobalt currently comes as a byproduct of copper and nickel mining, and as the price of these metals is dropping so too is the mining. However, as the value of cobalt goes through the roof then mining for cobalt as a principal metal will become viable and they will mine it whether other metals are there or not. And who's to say that technology may be about to come up with cobalt free batteries.
I may be an old fart but I have boundless optimism regarding technology. I remember when CD's were the future! 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on August 11, 2017, 10:49:56 PM
The reality is that nobody can predict the future with any accuracy and certainly not the pace of technological change and innovation. The idea, though, that we continue to use a 19th century technology like the ICE for the rest of time is for the birds.

The ICE is dead and we will get used to it in time.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 12, 2017, 09:34:34 AM
The ICE is dead and we will get used to it in time.

I bet the military will not be in a rush to 'go electric' for tactical vehicles,  sure they are buying them for their desk jockeys to run around in peacetime,  but that is only to meet government 'carbon and alternative fuel targets' - not because they want to.   Nothing up to now can meet the energy density of hydrocarbon fuel,  and it can easily be stockpiled in diverse locations - just what they want,  they do not want to be reliant on a centralised fuel supply, and they certainly won't be building wind turbine farms and solar arrays,  or maybe a temporary Hydro scheme on their front line bases.

Anyway we will still be refining crude to meet the demand for all the other stuff we get from it (paint, plastic, clothes, food, medicines etc. etc.  http://www.ranken-energy.com/Products%20from%20Petroleum.htm (http://www.ranken-energy.com/Products%20from%20Petroleum.htm) )  even the tarmac we drive our cars on obtained from oil, and crude contains an awful lot of petrol and other fuel oils,  so what are we going to do with these new 'byproducts' - dump them in landfills. 

Various studies have shown the large majority of people have no wish to have an electric vehicle, sure improved battery technology may make a dent in that figure,  but after 2040 PHEV and petrol-hybrids will still be built - I doubt we will see 'the disappearance of the ICE engine' in the lifetime of anyone who is alive today (even if they are only 1 year old).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on August 12, 2017, 11:46:23 AM
Are you sure that's right? I thought anything with an ICE would be banned from 2040 and that includes hybrids. Of course there will still be ICE vehicles around because the ban only applies to new sales.

I suspect most people, including the car manufacturers, will have woken up and smelled the coffee long before 2040. It's why it's actually quite uncontroversial - the change will happen organically and I am willing to bet few ICE cars will be bought from, say, 2030.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 12, 2017, 12:03:20 PM
Are you sure that's right? I thought anything with an ICE would be banned from 2040 and that includes hybrids. Of course there will still be ICE vehicles around because the ban only applies to new sales.

I suspect most people, including the car manufacturers, will have woken up and smelled the coffee long before 2040. It's why it's actually quite uncontroversial - the change will happen organically and I am willing to bet few ICE cars will be bought from, say, 2030.

Yes it is correct only vehicles whos only means of propulsion is petrol or diesel will be banned.  But the supply side for all that electricity has not been sorted yet.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/25/new-diesel-petrol-cars-banned-uk-roads-2040-government-unveils/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/25/new-diesel-petrol-cars-banned-uk-roads-2040-government-unveils/)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on August 12, 2017, 02:11:06 PM
Thanks for the link - I'd misunderstood the precise terms of the ban.

On a related topic just read an article in the finance pages of the Guardian where a reader wonders about scrapping his 12 year old diesel Mercedes Estate. A number of replies point out the inherent environmental issues in changing your car too often. I'm sometimes amused by electric car drivers who are on 2 year PCP deals and are already on their 3rd Nissan Leaf. I wonder if they have seen past the low emissions part of the equation and taken into account that buying a new car every 2 years is the exact opposite of being environmentally friendly.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 12, 2017, 02:16:03 PM
From 2050 the UK government says that only full EV's can be sold. 2040 allows hybrids.

The military will NEVER use electric vehicles. A nuclear detonation (even tactical), causes a huge EMP which will fry all electrical systems bar for the very hardest (military spec radios etc). No way they will want any military vehicles other than diesel power, by my way of thinking.
As for the motorist in the street. I think his car, fried, will be the least of his worries!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 12, 2017, 02:40:15 PM
I'm sometimes amused by electric car drivers who are on 2 year PCP deals and are already on their 3rd Nissan Leaf. I wonder if they have seen past the low emissions part of the equation and taken into account that buying a new car every 2 years is the exact opposite of being environmentally friendly.

Well at the moment EV tech is changing so quickly that people are anxious to get the 'latest' (just like Apple bringing out a new i-Phone regularly,  the electric car has become the car equivalent of the i-phone LOL), also it makes some kind of sense to lease or PCP an EV because they depreciate faster than a snowball in the Sahara,  but that depreciation must be reflected in the residual value of the PCP or lease and many people find they have to roll over and get another one because the balloon payment is too large.   There is a big difference between being trendy and being 'green'.  As I have said before a lot of people probably get a Tesla because of its novelty value and badge appeal' rather than anything to do with wanting to save the planet (or they may have been hypnotised by Elon Musk).

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 12, 2017, 02:54:24 PM
I fancy an electric car but green issues are not even in my mind. Hell, I don't even recycle.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest1372 on August 12, 2017, 03:21:08 PM
Whilst stuck behind a 20 year old Land Rover belching fumes for over an hour, with the fan off, vents closed and the windows steaming up I was hoping for emissions controls to be rapidly tightened up, but when it forded the flood when we had to use the other side's pavement he was vindicated.  Not sure how happy I would have been to drive an EV into the floodwater....  refer to the handbook first I think.

Jocko hits the nail on the head - driverless EVs are ownerless cars.  Even today if Honda could provide me with a Jazz around the city, an Accord for the journey down the A1, and a CR-V for the camping trip I would be very happy (at the right price).  As it stands the Jazz is ideal around town, not comfortable enough on a 4 hour motorway, and wasting money going nowhere in a central London parking structure for half the month.

The shift in personal transportation from a capital outlay, to a brokered service is where the natural home of an EV lies.
- - -
In the ExxonMobil staff magazine earlier this year I was surprised to read that 90% of US oil consumption is on the roads; the other products either refined (butane, propane) or derived from the base elements are really ways of disposing of what might otherwise become a waste issue.  In what was a quite bullish article, the undertones were really quite grim reading for their long term future - they seem to be pinning their hopes on gas.
--
TG
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 12, 2017, 04:16:10 PM
going nowhere in a central London parking structure for half the month.
Seemingly the average private car is parked somewhere for 96% of its life. For something that is, for most people, their second biggest purchase, this is a terrible waste of capital.
I have a mate who doesn't own a car. If he needs one he hires one. He never has to worry about maintenance and repairs, MOT's or tax and insurance. He always has a new, clean car, no worries, and money in his pocket.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 12, 2017, 05:02:30 PM
Most people's washing machine is only used a few hours a week,  but they still buy one rather than going to a laundrette,  people spend 10grand on a pushbike that hardly gets used, despite the fact there are plenty of bike hire places around, likewise people spend up to 20 grand on a motorbike that only gets used occasionally in summer.  Ownership is hard wired into our psyche - we want possessions, we don't like sharing however much financial sense it makes.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on August 12, 2017, 05:24:35 PM
Most people's washing machine is only used a few hours a week,  but they still buy one rather than going to a laundrette,  people spend 10grand on a pushbike that hardly gets used, despite the fact there are plenty of bike hire places around, likewise people spend up to 20 grand on a motorbike that only gets used occasionally in summer.  Ownership is hard wired into our psyche - we want possessions, we don't like sharing however much financial sense it makes.

I think there's a lot in that. Even people, like my daughter, who has a car on a straight lease (not PCP) refers to it as "her" car - she even gets it washed! It will take quite a big psychological adjustment to move away from that mode of thought. I'm not saying it couldn't or wouldn't happen but we are a long way off.

Saying that TG makes some interesting points as well. I have a former colleague who lives in Fulham, terraced house, no drive or any other off road parking. He gave up his car some time ago using the tube and taxis for the most part and occasionally hiring a car for certain journeys but that's London with an overcrowded but generally fairly reliable public transport system. That model wouldn't work out in the sticks or even many small towns.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 12, 2017, 07:30:47 PM
MIT review of driverless cars,  not very encouraging..............
my favourite quote is 'the hype has got totally out of synch with the reality'

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/602210/prepare-to-be-underwhelmed-by-2021s-autonomous-cars/ (https://www.technologyreview.com/s/602210/prepare-to-be-underwhelmed-by-2021s-autonomous-cars/)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 12, 2017, 08:01:23 PM
The batteries won't last, the infrastructure won't cope, the technology isn't good enough, far too expensive, the people won't want them. These are all comments made about mobile phones.
That MIT review was written a year ago, and since then they have already come up with a solution for seeing in rain.
As for the Tesla that killed its driver by not seeing the truck. It did not have LIDAR. LIDAR would have seen the truck. Tesla still does not use LIDAR. It was expensive and spoils the look of the vehicle. However, LIDAR is now available in a small cheap form and people won't bother if their "taxi" has an ugly lump on the roof.
With regard to only working in a small area, the centre of most cities is a small area, and that is the stomping ground of Uber and Lyft at the moment.
Personally, I think that the technology will be engineered to fit the situation. It is the will of government that will be the stumbling block.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 12, 2017, 08:43:37 PM
Found this fascinating video tonight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKaEhBjt1ls (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKaEhBjt1ls)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on August 12, 2017, 10:05:02 PM
The battery thing is interesting. There is a taxi firm in Cornwall that runs several Leafs. The oldest one was retired having lost 2 bars in 170,000 miles and 4 years so it had 80% left.

In the USA, however, especially in hot states, batteries have been losing capacity much quicker. They seem much more suited to temperate climates.

When I've looked at Nissan Leafs for sale in the UK it is rare to see any significant degradation even in the older cars.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on August 14, 2017, 05:37:21 PM
According to Justin Laney, the Commercial Vehicle Fleet Manager for John Lewis Partnership, talking at this year's nationalgrid Future Energy Scenarios, Bio-methane is the way that haulage fleets are looking to go, in the near future.
Off street parking is definitely an issue, regarding the charging of electric vehicles. I can see a time, fairly soon, where people do not own there own car. They just call up one as they need it. Driverless cars will go out of town to a charging station and charge up as required. Those people who do want/need to own their own car will charge them at rapid charging stations, possibly using inductive charging, as the prototype Rolls Royce electric car currently uses. With large capacity storage, and rapid charging, a car would be charged to 80% in little more time than it takes to fill up with petrol. Supermarkets would offer cheap charging, in their car parks, to customers. At present, petrol stations are a draw to get people to shop at a store. Charging points will be the new petrol station.
Norway has huge areas for parking and charging EV's, with free public parking for EV's, and car parks, in the likes of Oslo, that provide FREE charging.

Pity driverless cars don't work in snow as road signs and markings are invisible to sensors... Strangely enough, no-one mentions that.....
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 14, 2017, 05:42:15 PM
Here's another interesting speaker.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b3ttqYDwF0&t=291s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b3ttqYDwF0&t=291s)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 14, 2017, 05:48:25 PM
Pity driverless cars don't work in snow as road signs and markings are invisible to sensors... Strangely enough, no-one mentions that.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vShi-xx6ze8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vShi-xx6ze8)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest1372 on August 14, 2017, 06:38:18 PM
Pity driverless cars don't work in snow as road signs and markings are invisible to sensors... Strangely enough, no-one mentions that.....
Prompts the question, does a car need vision to read a road sign? 

V2X protocol suggests not, simple passive induction loops allow signs and road features to be read via radio.  Kerbs, verges & cones even today are easy to detect in mixed conditions, problems could occur on temporary multi-lane surfaces such as the construction of a new intersection on say the A1 or North Circular.  Markings might be misleading, maybe future contractors will have to lay guide tapes or maybe up to date geometry is passed to the vehicle on approach.  We have to think wider than just imagining a robotic driver with our existing infrastructure.

i.e. Passive road data beacons in every lamppost could easily prevent vehicles exceeding the 20mph residential limits, although the car's navigation systems should also be aware of that.
--
TG
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 14, 2017, 07:17:11 PM
I'm really looking forward to driver less cars,  will make pulling out of junctions and getting onto islands a cinch for human controlled cars,  just pull out,  the auto car will have to stop, if you are a pedestrian just cross the road anywhere you want as the car will have to stop. The real problem is that driver less cars cannot be programmed to do anything illegal, so can they cross a double white line to pass a slow vehicle ?  Us humans are very good at making use of road space as well,  when I was in Indonesia a three lane road could easily carry five lanes of traffic and very few if any bumps,  different countries all have different driving styles to be catered for, an AI nightmare. 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 14, 2017, 07:23:50 PM
Googles system depend on the area being mapped to within 5mm, and this information is known by the vehicles. If a vehicle comes on a situation it does not understand they will safely park and call a remote operator (hopefully not in a call centre in India), who will be able to control the car remotely (the military do that with drones over Iraq just now).
I would imagine that in the areas that driverless vehicles are operating there will have to be a protocol for "Off road" diversions. Their LiDAR will cope with temporary traffic lights, contraflows and the like. Getting them to drive off their mapped world will not work.
And once one driverless car has been navigated through the problem, the information will be immediately  downloaded to all the other vehicles in the fleet. Just like taxi's currently do for a speed trap or an accident.
The different driving cultures is what makes the difference between a Level 4 and a Level 5 autonomous vehicle. Level 4 can work in one defined area. A Level 5 in any area. Level 5 will be a number of years behind Level 4.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: VicW on August 14, 2017, 07:37:33 PM
If autonomous cars rely in whole or in part on road markings then they will not work in Lincolnshire. Here, as well as not repairing pot holes largely caused by lack of maintenance over many years and letting utility companies get away with murder when they dig the roads up the other 'saving' locally is not to renew white line road markings.
The only time white lines get renewed is after the highways department has covered them three inches of chippings to renew the road surface.

Vic.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 14, 2017, 07:43:06 PM
The lane assist of current cars requires the vehicle to detect the lane markings but autonomous cars do't appear to need them.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 16, 2017, 07:01:42 PM
Found this interesting production from National Grid (8th August 2017) clarifying statements in the press regards charging of EV' s come 2040.
http://fes.nationalgrid.com/media/1264/ev-myth-buster-v032.pdf (http://fes.nationalgrid.com/media/1264/ev-myth-buster-v032.pdf)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on August 16, 2017, 08:54:15 PM
Does anyone else feel that the rush to EVs is backing the wrong horse ? Pure EVs require a huge investment in charging infrastructure both public and private. And even if we can manage a step-change in battery technology and provide roadside charging points every 5m along every residential street, charging your EV is not going to be as convenient as today's procedure of simply pulling into a filling station for a few minutes.

So why not invest in hydrogen filling stations instead of all the chargers ? Cars will use the H2 in fuel cells to drive electric motors so they'll still be emission-free on the roads, and refuelling them will be just as convenient as today's filling stations. Any peak-load issues for National Grid (if they exist) can be resolved by using the power stations to drive electrolysers in exactly the same way that fuel refineries are now. H2 is even piped into everybody's homes in the form of water, you could conceive of having a home electrolyser in the garage if you really want. Yes, H2 can be dangerous but so is petrol; the Wikipedia article on the Hindenburg disaster (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindenburg_disaster (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindenburg_disaster)) suggests that "Hydrogen fires are notable for being less destructive to immediate surroundings than gasoline explosions because of the buoyancy of H2, which causes heat of combustion to be released upwards more than circumferentially as the leaked mass ascends in the atmosphere; hydrogen fires are more survivable than fires of gasoline or wood".

So why not spend the money on a hydrogen infrastructure rather than electric chargers ? Perhaps the hidden agenda behind the rush to EVs is to reduce congestion (as opposed to emissions) by making vehicles less convenient to use, and thereby reduce the overall number.

Just thinking ...
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 16, 2017, 09:44:13 PM
I think it comes down purely to economics. An electric car requires virtually no maintenance, with electric motors currently good for 500,000 miles. A hydrogen powered ICE car will be just as maintenance intensive as current cars. Hydrogen electrolysers are extremely expensive and very inefficient. It is cheaper to extract hydrogen from hydrocarbons.
Recharging EV's is getting faster as technology advances. It may never get as quick as filling your tank at a garage, but if you can do your supermarket shop while your car gets a full charge in the car park that will suit most people who cannot charge there cars at home. And as range increases so you will need to recharge much less often. The new Tesla Model 3 will do 310 miles between charges. For me that is about once a fortnight. The Tesla can charge at 170 miles in half an hour.
As I said, it will be purely economics. If EV's don't make economic sense they won't take off as promised. If hydrogen fuelled cars make the best economic sense then they will be the norm. Joe public votes with their wallet. Whatever happens it will be interesting times.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on August 16, 2017, 11:24:23 PM
A hydrogen powered ICE car will be just as maintenance intensive as current cars.
I wasn't thinking of burning H2 in an ICE - as you say, that'd be the worst of both worlds - but rather using it in a fuel cell to generate electricity. Like in the Honda Clarity Fuel Cell:
http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-reviews/honda/honda-clarity-fuel-cell-2017-review/ (http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-reviews/honda/honda-clarity-fuel-cell-2017-review/)
So you get an electric car with a 400 mile range that can be refuelled in a few minutes at a conventional filling station (albeit one dispensing H2 rather than petrol).

... if you can do your supermarket shop while your car gets a full charge in the car park ...
Call me cynical, but I really don't think that's going to happen reliably. Every supermarket parking space in the country with charging points ? And there'll be one available when I really, REALLY, need it ? Wouldn't it be more sensible if, instead of putting in all those charging points, the supermarket replaced some of it's petrol pumps with H2 dispensers ?

Joe public votes with their wallet.
True, up to a point. For the many people (self included) who live in streets of terraced houses with no chance of charging at home, pure EVs are seriously bad news. I would welcome having the option of easier fuelling with hydrogen, and if I have to pay a bit more for that privilege then so be it ... because the alternative would be having no vehicle at all.

And as for the economics, yes, you're right, it's currently not very attractive for a variety of reasons. There needs to be lots of investment in the infrastructure and the vehicles to bring the costs down. So all I'm suggesting is that that seems a more sensible thing to invest in than putting hundreds of thousands (millions ??) of charging points all over the country.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 17, 2017, 07:05:06 AM
Using Hydrogen in fuel cells to drive an electric car would be a much more efficient way of using the hydrogen than ICE. Honda's idea of a BEV that gives a choice of battery or hydrogen at the touch of a control sounds a good idea. Doing the sums it looks like the H2 would work out about the same price as petrol giving 30 mpg, but I would imaging that with increase in scale, the rise of cheap solar electricity and technology advancements, that would improve.
The only fly in the ointment is the date Honda hope to be selling the vehicles. 2022. I think by then they will pretty much have missed the bandwagon for mass uptake.
Regarding supermarket car parks. If Asda don't have as many charger points as Morrisons the shoppers will make their choice, which will force the adoption by the big supermarkets.
Here in Kirkcaldy, Tesco didn't have a dedicated car park, depending on a nearby, small council car park. Despite it being a large store it was forced to close, because their rivals all had dedicated parking. Similar will happen with charger points.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 17, 2017, 08:21:43 AM
https://www.greenoptimistic.com/hydrogen-cars-efficiency/#.WZVFYprWSUk (https://www.greenoptimistic.com/hydrogen-cars-efficiency/#.WZVFYprWSUk)

Production, compression and transport of hydrogen is very energy intensive,  batteries much more efficient.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on August 17, 2017, 09:09:58 AM
https://www.greenoptimistic.com/hydrogen-cars-efficiency/#.WZVFYprWSUk (https://www.greenoptimistic.com/hydrogen-cars-efficiency/#.WZVFYprWSUk)

Production, compression and transport of hydrogen is very energy intensive,  batteries much more efficient.
Thanks for that insight, some good points there and maybe they help to answer my question about "Why not H2 ?". But the underlying assumptions in any "EVs are better" argument are firstly that batteries are going to become much better at storing energy safely, and secondly everyone is going to have access to charging facilities when they want/need it. The jury's out on the first point, and fixing the second issue will require absolutely massive infrastructure investment (and I've not seen any suggestions about who's going to pay for that). I just don't see it happening, which is why maybe H2 has a place even with it's inefficiencies.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 17, 2017, 11:26:42 AM
As solar panels become more efficient it may be possible to have a fold out solar array on the roof of your EV to top up the battery while parked,  if PV cells go from  say 10% to 40% efficiency then you need only 1/4 of the active panel area to get same power.   Only proviso is that you always have to park facing south LOL

At the moment a good domestic panel of 1600 x 1000 mm of about 18% efficiency  will produce 300 watts so would take over 3 hours to generate 1kwh under ideal conditions. In a Nissan Leaf 1Kw/h would take you about 3 miles.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 17, 2017, 11:51:07 AM
Attached is an interesting .PDF  from the energy trust

It says EV vehicles are more efficient at lower speeds (typical urban speeds of 30mph or less),  where peak ICE efficiency is around 45 to 50mph.  That use of heater and aircon will drain EV battery faster than you may think. 

I think range for EV is given at steady 50mph,  so stay below that and you could increase range,  but go above it and range reduces quite quickly.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 17, 2017, 03:36:10 PM
With Hyundai promising, today, their new EV will have 300 mile range, most of the other manufacturers of similar vehicles are probably about the same place.
According to the Energy Trust using the heating consumes 10% of your range. That is only a reduction of 30 miles on a car with that sort of range.
(https://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/7D29/production/_97414023_gettyimages-517068842.jpg)

The other big news on the energy front is Professor John Underhill, from Heriot-Watt University, saying that the gas reserves in shale rocks in the UK have been "hyped". The government should have a plan B.
Prof Underhill said his research on the influence of tectonic plates on the UK suggested that the shale formations have been lifted, warped and cooled by tectonic action. These factors make shale gas production much less likely.
"The complexity of the shale gas basins hasn't been fully appreciated so the opportunity has been hyped," he told the BBC.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 17, 2017, 05:02:10 PM
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/electric_vehicle_ev (http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/electric_vehicle_ev)

interesting stuff about EV batteries,  this article says EV makers oversize the battery to allow for battery fade with age.

Just look at the weight of the Tesla - 2100 Kg - The BMW i3 is half that weight,  the Tesla battery alone is half the weight of the complete i3.

Some info about fuel cells as well - in fact the BU site is a mine of information

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/bu_1005_fuel_cell_vehicle (http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/bu_1005_fuel_cell_vehicle)

And something I have always known -------- http://driving.ca/auto-news/news/motor-mouth-people-can-still-drive-better-than-computers-when-we-want-to (http://driving.ca/auto-news/news/motor-mouth-people-can-still-drive-better-than-computers-when-we-want-to)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 17, 2017, 05:54:12 PM
Interesting post, on another site, from a Leaf owner.

Battery packs that need to be heated - already do this automatically. For our 2015 Leaf, it is most important to heat the battery during charging - and it does this.

I actually don't mind wearing a coat and gloves (and hat if needed) inside the car - because that is how you have to dress to be outside in cold weather. You're out of the wind, and heated seats are quite nice, and they take virtually nothing away from range.

Heating the battery, though, does become noticeable when it gets really cold. Low teens* and below, the range is affected.

The ONLY time you need to use the heater - is to keep the windows clear, or to melt ice.


* 13°F is -10°C.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 18, 2017, 08:25:00 AM
http://driving.ca/auto-news/news/as-robots-take-the-wheel-driving-skills-begin-to-hit-the-skids (http://driving.ca/auto-news/news/as-robots-take-the-wheel-driving-skills-begin-to-hit-the-skids)

Seems that people already finding other things to do (other than watching the road) even in cars with the simpler 'driver assist functions' - accidents going up.  Seems a lot of them don't understand that emergency auto braking only works <20mph.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 18, 2017, 08:49:23 AM
I agree. Even cruise control used to make me lose concentration.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 18, 2017, 09:24:55 AM
Found this on YouTube. May be of interest to some of you. As a man who has completed dozens of laps of the Nurburgring, albeit on the Xbox, I found it fascinating.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcepG9Twa_8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcepG9Twa_8)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest5079 on August 18, 2017, 02:30:50 PM
Mr Trump bangs on about fake news. The learned Professor has told us that the shale gas is a con.  Is HM Government subsidising the shale gas exploration? It really would be nice if the experts would stop coming up with their own particular 'bit' and told us the truth. Not the Professor as what he says makes a lot of sense.
As to Culzean pointing out that the auto braking only works at < 20mph, HOW many car owners read even only a bit of their handbook?  A press hack states so and so car is fitted with auto braking and members of the public forget abut the brake pedal.
Being an old fart terrifies me as I cannot grasp all this technology, why o why are manufacturers putting all this 'equipment' into cars. Why not make them cheaper by leaving out the self parking type gizmos etc and why can't we the human being just learn to drive properly. After all we con ourselves into believing we are superior to other life. I can just about understand why a battery needs to be warmed on a cold day to maximise charging, sorry it just appears that Homo Sapien is hell bent on coming up with something new just for the sake of it.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 18, 2017, 03:34:41 PM
I watched an interview with the CEO of Good Energy, and she says that energy, particularly oil and gas, is subsidised beyond belief. Witness the £2.5 billion pledge to the oil industry, made in Aberdeen, immediately after the election fiasco.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on August 18, 2017, 04:31:22 PM

Being an old fart terrifies me as I cannot grasp all this technology, why o why are manufacturers putting all this 'equipment' into cars. Why not make them cheaper by leaving out the self parking type gizmos etc and why can't we the human being just learn to drive properly. After all we con ourselves into believing we are superior to other life. I can just about understand why a battery needs to be warmed on a cold day to maximise charging, sorry it just appears that Homo Sapien is hell bent on coming up with something new just for the sake of it.

 ;D

2 things spring to mind as a result of this post. Firstly, the old boy across the road has a top of the range Civic (he changes every 3 years - I think he gets motability) and he found a button that scared him so much he put tape over it in case he pressed it by accident. I think he thought it was an ejector seat!

Secondly, in the latest Which car buyers guide, Dacia come out quite well on reliability and one reason is there is so little equipment there is nothing to go wrong!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 18, 2017, 05:05:57 PM
EV's are nothing new. This is the the land speed record holder from 1899. Speed was 57.65 mph.
Problem was battery storage technology. And we all know what happened next.
(https://img.newatlas.com/the-first-world-land-speed-record-ev-18.jpg?auto=format%2Ccompress&ch=Width%2CDPR&crop=entropy&fit=crop&h=347&q=60&w=616&s=59ed438696806d3993d178a725490405)
The first record holder was a Jeantaud, also electric. Jeantaud started making EV's in 1881. It was 1885 before Karl Benz built what is recognised as the first "production" car (1808 was first ICE vehicle - H2 powered).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on August 18, 2017, 05:26:32 PM
Good post Jocko. There is definitely an element of "Back to The Future" about current developments.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 18, 2017, 09:30:07 PM
Found this today. Blown away. And this is still early stages. Well worth a watch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfRqNAhAe6c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfRqNAhAe6c)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on August 19, 2017, 09:19:45 AM
...Dacia come out quite well on reliability and one reason is there is so little equipment there is nothing to go wrong!

Simplicity is a good thing when it's made of Renault parts.  ;)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest5079 on August 19, 2017, 11:21:57 AM
Peteo48 has hit the nail on the head. We unfortunately overlook a junction of minor roads. I also live in the West Country, whereby the latest reg is the thing. I am completely at a loss to understand why the older generation buy the car they do. Opposite is a retired farmer, he has always bought Ford!!!!! He can barely walk nor appears to know what day of the week it is. His Brother visits, a brand new Audi A6, a year ago it was a Jaguar. Both must be mid 70's. They terrify me. As to the motability business matey probably has to pay a surplus to get top of the range, whats the point. As my poor Wife says, a car should go when you want it to and to be waterproof. I like a bit more than that. We both can have a motability car but we decided not to because we prefer automatic and most of what they offer is base model small engine UNLESS you want to cough up!!!!
As to the Dacia, being reliable! well why can't Renault emulate that after all as I understand it a Dacia is made of Renault's yesterday engineering, which surely confirms what is the point of making them more and more complicated. We downsized our car, the Jazz fitted the bill, it is not new and it bothers me not in the slightest. It is all very well buying the latest flashiest car but what's the point when you can't pay the other bills and believe me that is very much the case in this part of the world.


Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on August 19, 2017, 02:02:10 PM
Just wondering, with reference to Dacia and the use of older Renault technology, if that doesn't also explain why Skoda are consistently more reliable than VWs or Audis?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 21, 2017, 09:48:42 AM
if that doesn't also explain why Skoda are consistently more reliable than VWs or Audis?

Maybe Skoda have more quality 'Czechs' on their production line (A lot of German cars are probably built by Turkish and other third world workers which explains why angelic Merkel loves third world immigrants so much).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 21, 2017, 12:51:41 PM
It is all very well buying the latest flashiest car but what's the point when you can't pay the other bills and believe me that is very much the case in this part of the world.

All depends on people's priorities,  there are some small rented terraced houses by us and some of them have big mercs and beamers with latest reg outside (may also be drug dealers keeping one step ahead of the law),  I am also convinced that more than a few people with vanity plates have them to hide the true age of their car,  still cannot understand why UK is only country in the world with registration date on the number plate except to cater for people who need to have 'newest car' (normally a company car).



Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 21, 2017, 02:00:34 PM
with registration date on the number plate except to cater for people who need to have 'newest car'.
You have hit the nail on the head. The registration year letter (now numbers) was at the behest of the motor industry to promote sales. The change to twice a year was to spread the "blip", and even the date it changes is because the 1st of January wasn't convenient for the motor industry/dealers.
My "vanity " plate shoes the car as much older than it really is.
Also, I wouldn't mind betting there are probably as many "private lease" vehicles registered these days as company vehicles. The car dealerships near me no longer have the "Drive away for £500 deposit" stickers on the car. They are now "Lease for £109 per month". My step-daughter got caught with that. Her circumstances changed and she had to return her leased Polo. It cost her £4000 to get out of the contract.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 21, 2017, 09:27:37 PM
Came across this article under the heading 'it's been a tough week for self-driving cars'

http://driving.ca/auto-news/news/motor-mouth-autonomous-cars-uber-san-francisco

and on the same site..........

http://driving.ca/auto-news/news/the-road-to-fully-autonomous-cars-is-the-most-dangerous

http://driving.ca/nissan/leaf/auto-news/news/self-driving-cars-will-worsen-traffic-and-nobody-will-care
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 01, 2017, 08:43:41 AM
Reading an interesting bit about autonomous cars saying that they could well be ICE powered. No need to be electric.
They are already carrying out tests with autonomous trucks, in the US, and they are just conventional diesel powered "Semis".
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 04, 2017, 09:30:36 AM
I see that Samsung has been granted a licence to test autonomous cars on the roads of California. They are not looking to build cars of their own, but to develop a system that can be licensed for use by other vehicle manufacturers.
A sort of "Windows" for autonomous vehicle.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-41122102 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-41122102)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 06, 2017, 09:40:49 PM
This could be the cork out of the bottle.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos-selfdriving/house-unanimously-approves-sweeping-self-driving-car-measure-idUSKCN1BH2B2?utm_campaign=trueAnthem%3A+Trending+Content&utm_content=59b046e104d3012442b7bd3d&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=facebook (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos-selfdriving/house-unanimously-approves-sweeping-self-driving-car-measure-idUSKCN1BH2B2?utm_campaign=trueAnthem%3A+Trending+Content&utm_content=59b046e104d3012442b7bd3d&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=facebook)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 10, 2017, 09:33:44 PM
Tesloop, a City to City transport service running out of LA (ride sharing like a small bus) uses Teslas. Their first car, a model S, has just done 300,000 miles in two years. Total running costs were $10,294 for fuel and maintenance which included a replacement for a damaged headlight at $3,500. They estimated it would have cost them $86,000 for an equivalent ICE car. At the current rate, they will have done 1,200,000 miles before the battery/drivetrain eight year/unlimited mileage warranty expires, in 2023.
The fuel costs were virtually zero because they used the Tesla Supercharger system.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DIf9z6PWsAEMWsx.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 11, 2017, 07:10:59 AM
China has announced its intention to ban the sale and production of petrol and diesel powered cars. As yet they have not set a date for the ban to be implemented. I feel, with China's love of the electric car, it will be sooner rather than later. As the worlds largest manufacturer of motor vehicle (two and a half times as many as its nearest rival, the USA) this will have a profound effect on economies around the globe. China is also the worlds largest buyer of cars.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on September 11, 2017, 08:34:24 AM
China has announced its intention to ban the sale and production of petrol and diesel powered cars. As yet they have not set a date for the ban to be implemented. I feel, with China's love of the electric car, it will be sooner rather than later. As the worlds largest manufacturer of motor vehicle (two and a half times as many as its nearest rival, the USA) this will have a profound effect on economies around the globe. China is also the worlds largest buyer of cars.

Other countries may stop trading with China soon, including USA because China wants to be a world power but does not yet realise that with power comes responsibility.  China is using North Korea as a proxy to see how far it can push USA and its allies,  but they have to realise that they are no longer dealing with 'appeasement Obama' and that Trump will pretty soon stop USA trading with any country who still trades with NK and that will suit USA as it brings jobs back home.  China also needs to get its human rights in order - EU will probably still trade with China as they need the money, especially after we leave, and with a shrinking involvement in world trade the EU can't afford to sacrifice trade for the moral high ground - despite what its loony lefty socialist dreaming non-elected leaders may preach.

http://money.cnn.com/2017/01/19/news/economy/china-fourth-quarter-gdp-economic-growth/index.html

China economy is overheating,  with massive corporate and private debt - how much longer before the bubble bursts.  Also their workforce is shrinking due to ageing  (they have also killed a lot of them with pollution and industrial accidents LOL)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 11, 2017, 09:30:10 AM
China buys $116Bn of goods from the US, albeit considerably less than the US buys from China. If the US stopped trading with China tomorrow, the bulk of those imported goods sales, currently coming from China, would go to India, Malaysia, Japan and South Korea. Not a lot of American jobs coming from there.
As for Trump. He is just a blustering buffoon. He is US president in name only. North Korea, China and Russia all see through his bluffing. He is fast realising he can do little without the backing of Congress and the Senate. Except Tweet that is.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest4871 on September 11, 2017, 09:57:36 AM
China buys $116Bn of goods from the US, albeit considerably less than the US buys from China. If the US stopped trading with China tomorrow, the bulk of those imported goods sales, currently coming from China, would go to India, Malaysia, Japan and South Korea. Not a lot of American jobs coming from there.
As for Trump. He is just a blustering buffoon. He is US president in name only. North Korea, China and Russia all see through his bluffing. He is fast realising he can do little without the backing of Congress and the Senate. Except Tweet that is.

Whoops!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 12, 2017, 09:55:05 PM
BMW for 2021. Looks like something out of Joe 90.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=v9L3q7FaGmY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=v9L3q7FaGmY)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lKzSAOM82A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lKzSAOM82A)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest5079 on September 15, 2017, 02:42:54 PM
I am getting old and the brain cells are rusty but can you with chaps explain the ad I saw recently.
Good old VW. It was an ad for a Golf GTE presumably GT electric. Unfortunately the TV was on mute but at the end came up 'petrol+electric' speed ( I think it was speed).
The ad appeared to suggest the car had a petrol engine and an electric motor.
As I said I did not hear the blurb ( most ads are muted in our house) but what is the point of an  petrol engine which produces electricity to power an electric motor to give speed.
Clearly i have missed something but as VW have previous for conning the world perhaps this is another German master race idea to blind us with science. .
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 15, 2017, 03:11:27 PM
It is not unusual to use both an electric motor and an internal combustion engine. That is what the current Formula One use to give added power. If you have a 150 bhp engine driving the front wheels and a 50 bhp engine driving the rear you effectively have a 200 bhp vehicle. The batteries can be charged by regenerative braking (as per F1) as well as using the engine to charge the battery when you don't need the 150 bhp. Or, in the case of a PHEV, you charge it, mainly, from the mains.
It would appear that the GTE is a pretty conventional Plug In Hybrid. The electric motor is also used to give low down torque, combining with the ICE when it is required for more grunt. This is similar to the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: VicW on September 15, 2017, 03:33:14 PM
It is not unusual to use both an electric motor and an internal combustion engine.

Isn't this what the Jazz Hybrid, Honda Insight, Toyota Prius plus others did or do?

Vic.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on September 15, 2017, 03:55:05 PM
It is not unusual to use both an electric motor and an internal combustion engine.

Isn't this what the Jazz Hybrid, Honda Insight, Toyota Prius plus others did or do?

Vic.

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-reviews/long-term-tests/bmw/bmw-i3-range-extender-2017-long-term-test-review/

BMW i3 has a range extender engine to top up its 100 mile range,  I think it is an option - my joke about city people without access to home charging using a Honda mobile generator to charge the battery may not have been too wide of the mark after all.  The i3 is pretty porky at 1440KG,  no wonder they had to use carbon fibre, if I remmber correctly the Jazz is around 400KG lighter.   Cost from factory of i3 is best part of £37,000 (before taking off around £5K plug-in grant courtesy of UK taxpayer LOL) - you need to save a lot of fuel to justify that price - don't know if you lease the battery though.

Anything with 'hybrid' in the name will be an ICE + leccy motor / battery setup.

Even the flagship BMW i8 is not immune to plummeting residuals,  look in the link above and nearly new cars are available over £30K less than new (£100K whew !!) cost.  Average mpg on 110 mile motorway commute was 35mpg.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on September 15, 2017, 04:05:13 PM
Here's an illustration of what is still wrong with the charging network for pure EVs. My wife's brother-in-law is over from South Africa and staying with his son and his wife in Rotherham. We are popping over to see him on Sunday - 140 mile round trip. This has just been arranged this lunchtime. Check on zap map and there are no chargers on either of the main Manchester to Sheffield routes (snake and Woodhead passes). This is a trip arranged at short notice and one that a Nissan Leaf couldn't do without a huge amount of faffing. Yes you could put a few miles on by using a plug at the destination but only a few. You'd then have to drive into the town centre and sit in a council car park for 40 minutes on a wet Sunday afternoon.

The infrastructure is still a joke and will remain a joke until charge points are as common as petrol pumps. EV an ideal second car at the moment but, as your only vehicle? No - not yet.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on September 15, 2017, 04:13:09 PM
The infrastructure is still a joke and will remain a joke until charge points are as common as petrol pumps. EV an ideal second car at the moment but, as your only vehicle? No - not yet.

Charge points need to be much more common than petrol pumps, a single petrol pump can easily service over 10 cars and hour (a normal garage with say 10 pumps = say 70 to 80 cars an hour to allow for queuing to pay and waiting for other cars to move),  a single EV charge point 1 car per hour at a push (an average UK EV charging point with a couple of outlets = 2 cars an hour, but sometimes if two cars plug in at same time charging current is halved - even with a Tesla supercharger,  so a 1 hour charge now becomes a 2 hour charge to get same range ) - and what is worse if your EV runs out of fuel on the road you can't stop a passing car and get a lift to nearest garage for a can of fuel, or ring your mate to bring one out - when I was an apprentice I was sent to stores for a 'box of amps' - that is what you will need with an EV,  the AA towing a big battery around.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 15, 2017, 04:59:14 PM
The currently available EVs, with the exception of the Tesla, are not suitable for long distance journeys. However, range is being extended all the time and battery/charging technology is improving at a phenomenal rate. EVs may never be a replacement for ICE cars, for every occasion. A group of people will never be able to jump into a car at Land's End and drive non stop to John O Groats by sharing the driving and only stopping for the toilet and fuel. But how many people do that. An EV with 300 mile range and overnight charging would suit my driving requirements, and probably most peoples personal motoring. Driving for an eight hour day at 70 mph would require 560 mile range. No one, sales rep or other, would ever need to do that (or should be allowed to do that). The current Tesla Model S 100D currently boasts 420 miles. 560 miles is not that far off.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on September 15, 2017, 05:24:55 PM
In terms of charge points you might not need as many points as petrol or diesel pumps because most charging will be done at home but you certainly need the spread.

I agree with Jocko that you will see improvements in battery technology but this will need to filter down below the sorts of prices that Tesla charges for a car albeit an upmarket one. I think that's why the deadline - 2040 - is about right.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 15, 2017, 06:55:11 PM
I am in my 70th year and I firmly believe that electric cars for the masses will take off in my lifetime.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: VicW on September 15, 2017, 07:42:50 PM
Nobody has yet answered the question how EV owners with no off street parking are going to charge their cars.
I don't think that the government has given this problem a thought either, remember they don't live in the real world along with the rest of us.
Don't think for one minute the local authorities are going to line the streets with charging points the cost would be horrendous.
How many millions of cars are there in this country, where is the electricity coming from to charge them all?
What will the government introduce to take the place of petrol/diesel tax?
An electric HGV doing 400 miles a day, I don't think so.

Vic.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 15, 2017, 07:47:30 PM
(https://nikolamotor.com/threesixty/3.jpg)

https://nikolamotor.com/one (https://nikolamotor.com/one)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: VicW on September 15, 2017, 08:05:48 PM
And the special charging points for all these millions of HGV's?

Vic.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 15, 2017, 08:13:01 PM
That one uses Hydrogen fuel cells. Fills up like a pump.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on September 15, 2017, 08:29:24 PM

An electric HGV doing 400 miles a day, I don't think so.


Read a bit about feasibility of battery powered lorries and due to weight of batteries required you soon reach the point where weight of batteries is eating into the payload big time, that is probably why they use hydrogen cells for that truck in Jacko link.   But with present technology hydrogen can either be made with electrolysing water (inefficient and power intensive) or from cracking hydrocarbons (fossil fuels) - ironically you use the hydrogen and the carbon becomes a waste product.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 15, 2017, 08:39:56 PM
But once we have cheap renewable energy that we can "waste"!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on September 15, 2017, 09:27:32 PM
But once we have cheap renewable energy that we can "waste"!

Solar and wind technology, after 50 years of subsidies, produces less than 1 percent of the world’s energy

there is installed capacity to provide about 7%,  but as we have seen with wind and solar  'installed capacity' bears no relation to actual power produced.  Nuclear provides more energy than renewables, and over 90% of world energy still comes from fossil fuels - renewables are not even keeping up with the increase in world energy requirements,  let alone making even a dent in the basic requirements.

Just underlines that 'there is no fuel like an old fuel' .............

Government (read - 'taxpayer') subsidies of renewables are muddying the water on the economic case,  much like the French farmers made a lot of money from EU Common Agricultural Policy by just owning a farm (whether it produced any food was neither here nor there) people are building renewables and in most cases they would not make economic sense without subsidies - nuclear is still the cleanest most reliable energy source but is being stifled by the skewing of the energy market that subsidies always produce.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 16, 2017, 08:37:00 AM
And you don't think nuclear is subsidised? Or oil, gas and even coal? The oil industry has just gone to Mrs May this week, asking for more government (taxpayer) handouts.
And according to the World Bank data, in 2014 renewables were at 22%, and rising rapidly.
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/EG.ELC.RNEW.ZS?view=chart (https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/EG.ELC.RNEW.ZS?view=chart)
With the UK at 19%.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on September 16, 2017, 09:12:36 AM
I have always thought that the answer is tidal energy, it is an immense and largely untapped source of energy. Wind may come & go, but you can't turn the moon off.

They are currently testing a single 2MW floating tidal rig in Orkney that has produced 116MWh over the period of a week, 7% of Orkney's total electricity consumpton. Estimates vary, but most agree that there is enough energy in the Pentland Firth to produce at least 50% of Scotland's electricity needs, some say over 100% with improving technology.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on September 16, 2017, 09:44:30 AM
I have always thought that the answer is tidal energy, it is an immense and largely untapped source of energy. Wind may come & go, but you can't turn the moon off.

They are currently testing a single 2MW floating tidal rig in Orkney that has produced 116MWh over the period of a week, 7% of Orkney's total electricity consumpton. Estimates vary, but most agree that there is enough energy in the Pentland Firth to produce at least 50% of Scotland's electricity needs, some say over 100% with improving technology.

My thoughts exactly,  wind and solar are too reliant on things that are not reliable enough to power our energy hungry society - the wind is not at all reliable or predictable, and turbines only operate in 'goldilocks' too little wind (below about 15 mph) = no power,  too much (over about 40mph) = no power as the turbine blades have to be feathered to protect the turbine.   Solar is too variable as well,  daytime cloud can reduce output to less than 10% of rated capacity, and in winter we only get at most 7 hours of daylight,  and only about 4 hours of that is useful to generate energy.   All the variability of renewables is making controlling the grid very challenging, making sure voltage and power levels are within legal useable values.

here is another source of fossil fuels yet to be tapped
http://e360.yale.edu/features/the-world-eyes-yet-another-unconventional-source-of-fossil-fuels-methane-hydrates
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 16, 2017, 03:48:33 PM
The opening paragraph kind of says it all.
Vast quantities of methane hydrates — frozen deposits of natural gas on the sea floor — exist worldwide. But as experimental drilling moves forward, many experts question the wisdom of exploiting a costly, environmentally risky trove of fossil fuels that will accelerate global warming.
Regarding wind turbines. The current designs of commercial wind turbines operate up to 55 mph. I live near a wind farm and there is very little time that one or more of them is not working. Usually when a turbine is stationary it is either down for maintenance of surplus to requirements (enough energy being delivered by generators that cannot be shut down quickly).
Tidal is definitely the way to generate a steady supply of electricity. The Solway Firth, Morecambe Bay area is the best for large tides. The Forth is very good too. The Pentland Firth and Orkney area is actually rather poor. Their popularity is probably because variations in height, between low and high tide, are not too extreme. After all, it is still in its infancy, relatively speaking.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on September 16, 2017, 07:26:51 PM
Tidal power is great, but it is a unique energy source which can be frequently totally destroyed for years due to natural events which were considered extreme when the installation was designed..  (eg 200 mph hurricanes, force 7 gales etc...)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on September 16, 2017, 07:49:25 PM
The Solway Firth, Morecambe Bay area is the best for large tides. The Forth is very good too. The Pentland Firth and Orkney area is actually rather poor.

I was always under the impression that The Pentland Firth was potentially one of the best sites for tidal power, the tidal race through the Firth is one of the fastest in the world.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 16, 2017, 08:52:38 PM
It depends on the type of tidal generator. A turbine type works great in a fast current (Pentland Firth). For the rise and fall type of generator you want a large variation between high and low tide (Solway Firth)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on September 16, 2017, 09:59:07 PM
I think that turbines are the thing up there, they are playing with floating rigs and seabed anchored types.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on September 16, 2017, 10:02:02 PM
I think the points Culzean makes about the ability of the grid to handle the variable power that come from the current crop of renewables are valid but, in my view, that is not an argument for not using them. It's an argument for a mixed economy in energy generation and that will include nuclear.

I watched a very good "Fully Charged" video on the work being done on Orkney. The 2 guys Robert Llewellyn was speaking to were not tree huggers but serious engineers. They opined that the current grid couldn't cope with more than about 25 to 30% renewables. It could cope with more if battery storage was part of the mix and more again if tidal (a largely unvariable renewable source) was deployed.

Another interesting point arose from some new houses being built there. Each house came with a Tesla power wall as standard. They also had a small solar array on the roof. The reason it wasn't larger was there was so much wind power on Orkney that the grid there simply couldn't cope with all the renewable energy being produced. On top of that, insulation standards were so high that the houses were only just below "passive house" standards - ie properties that required no heat.

We don't need to be burning stuff - time to move beyond the stone age. Fossil fuels have made a huge contribution but their time is gone. Oil is needed for other stuff - let's not keep burning it.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on September 17, 2017, 09:27:22 AM
I think the points Culzean makes about the ability of the grid to handle the variable power that come from the current crop of renewables are valid but, in my view, that is not an argument for not using them. It's an argument for a mixed economy in energy generation and that will include nuclear.

Due to variability of wind power, some countries use it for pumping water up into storage dams so they can use the hydro as and when they need it. They don't even try to wind directly to feed into grid.

here is an extract from an article on wind power..........

The main drawback in the use of wind energy for the generation of electricity is the intermittent nature of its source. Wind is extremely variable and there is no guarantee that it will blow when it is most needed.
For this reason, large scale integration of wind is a threat to the stability and reliability of utility grids hosting wind energy conversion systems. Moreover, wind power does not help in providing any of the ancillary services such as regulation reserves, voltage control and frequency control and therefore requires a substantial capacity of conventional energy generation that can provide regulation reserve to follow the wind power.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 17, 2017, 10:19:58 AM
I think, that as storage becomes cheaper and more efficient, this will become less of a problem. As I said earlier, often when you see turbines stationary it is because they have no use for the energy they could be producing. More and better storage would mitigate this. And we are not necessarily talking about Tesla Powerwalls here. Molten salt is used to store solar energy, but there is no reason why it could not be used to store energy produced by wind. Nowhere near as efficient, but if the energy is produced cheap enough then efficiency becomes less of an issue. They have even been used compressed air storage (since 1978), and flywheel storage! Options that become more attractive as the cost of generation goes down.
China is investing billions in renewables, and to recoup those billions they will want to sell to the rest of the world.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on September 17, 2017, 01:24:40 PM
Another interesting point arose from some new houses being built there. Each house came with a Tesla power wall as standard. They also had a small solar array on the roof. The reason it wasn't larger was there was so much wind power on Orkney that the grid there simply couldn't cope with all the renewable energy being produced. On top of that, insulation standards were so high that the houses were only just below "passive house" standards - ie properties that required no heat.

Orkney is a net exporter of electricity, but the cable to Scotland is often running at capacity, and there is no sign of any investment to improve the link. There are a number of options being explored to prevent (expensive) forced turbine shutdowns when the grid is unable to accept the electricity generated, such as the experiments with hydrogen production for the ferries, and heating initiatives on the North Isles to dump excess electricity into domestic storage heaters at discounted rates.

Orkney has a relatively high requirement for domestic heating. Although most new build is of high quality and very energy efficient, there is also a large stock of traditional housing which is very poor thermally.

The problem with the abundance of energy in places like Orkney, and to some extent some off shore wind, and even nuclear generation, is the transmission distances required. The electricity is simply not where it is needed, and transmission losses can be very significant with current technology. It is no accident that coal fired generation was built in a pattern radiating out from major population centres.

As Jocko said, the answer to wind/solar is storage. However, the grid and generation facilities are now being built around these unreliable renewable sources of electricity, and vast amounts of money are being poured into accommodating long term supply contracts for peak demand supply. I live near two 2GW coal fired power stations slated for closure soon, a new gas fired station of similar capacity has been built behind one, a new fast response gas station is being built now, and plans are emerging for another fast response gas station on the same site.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on September 17, 2017, 03:12:43 PM
Another interesting point arose from some new houses being built there. Each house came with a Tesla power wall as standard. They also had a small solar array on the roof. The reason it wasn't larger was there was so much wind power on Orkney that the grid there simply couldn't cope with all the renewable energy being produced. On top of that, insulation standards were so high that the houses were only just below "passive house" standards - ie properties that required no heat.
a new gas fired station of similar capacity has been built behind one, a new fast response gas station is being built now, and plans are emerging for another fast response gas station on the same site.

I don't understand why gas is used to make electricity (except as a cheap and quick short term 'patch'  to build replacement for other 'dirtier' fossil fuels),  conversion efficiency of gas to electric energy is about 40 to 45%  and then transmission losses.  You can burn that same gas in a domestic condensing boiler at over 90% efficiency - pretty much double the efficiency, even a 'low tech' gas boiler will get over 80% -  what a waste of gas.......................................
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 17, 2017, 07:19:01 PM
Another example of long battery life in a Tesla.

http://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-s-400k-km-250k-mi-7-percent-battery-degradation/ (http://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-s-400k-km-250k-mi-7-percent-battery-degradation/)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on September 17, 2017, 08:21:50 PM
Another example of long battery life in a Tesla.

http://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-s-400k-km-250k-mi-7-percent-battery-degradation/ (http://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-s-400k-km-250k-mi-7-percent-battery-degradation/)

Teslas batteries may well outlast the company.........................they are making a loss of $16,000 per car.

http://www.autonews.com/article/20170504/BLOG06/170509893/teslas-good-ideas-cant-pay-the-bills-forever

The Tesla autopilot has also been officially blamed for the crash that killed a driver when car hit a truck, the families response that  'the car did not kill our son' could well have been written by the Tesla legal department, Tesla refused to comment on whether an out of court settlement had been reached with the family - yeah right !! .   Big condemnation from the investigators was that even with cruise control set to high speed (up to 90mph) there was still no requirement for driver to even hod the steering wheel - seems to be a big gap where silicon valley meets common sense.

Other drivers have had close shaves using autpilot when it didn't detect stopped traffic in front of car,  luckily they weren't watching game of thrones on a video and were able to manually brake the car.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 17, 2017, 08:56:35 PM
Does your Jazz have cruise control? Do you have to hold the wheel to use it? I don't have cruise control on my Jazz but my Volvo didn't need me to hold the wheel.
Immediately after the incident Tesla admitted they needed to amend the software, and every Tesla was updated wirelessly. I have just had to wait 6 months for Honda to finally replace my airbags.
Tesla's accounts, as of 31st Dec 2016, showed a positive balance of $1,000M and Tesla Inc had a Debt to Total Capital ratio of 54.69%, a lower figure than the previous year's 105.43%. Even at a loss of $16,000 per car, Tesla has a long way to go before they are in difficulty. Even the article you linked to, said that Tesla has "incredible potential". And "Automotive News" receives most of its advertising revenue from the established motor industry! It is like reading an article in the "Daily Mail" that says immigrants are all crooks.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on September 17, 2017, 10:26:48 PM
I don't understand why gas is used to make electricity (except as a cheap and quick short term 'patch' to build replacement for other 'dirtier' fossil fuels)

I think that just about hits the nail on the head.

Gas has a number of advantages over other electricity sources. It is cheap and fast to build. Amazingly fast, in fact. I also noted the local paper boasting of the thousands of jobs secured building the current project... and 15 jobs created for people to run it. Yes, just 15.

The latest combined-cycle gas turbines are said to be 60% efficient, but it's still poor in the scheme of things, really.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on September 18, 2017, 09:29:09 AM
Musk has proved very adept at getting American taxpayers money in the form of subsidies and cheap loans,  every Tesla sold carries around US$8,000 'discount' courtesy of hard working Americans tax,  it has got sweetheart deals from states to build plants there - he has also managed to dazzle and hypnotise investors into piling money in with no visible return.  Building cars is different to writing software, as silicon valley has found out. Silicon valley (Google, Uber etc) boasted that it was going to put the 'old fashioned' car makers out of business,  if you look now there is non-one from silicon valley trying to build cars,  all they are interested in is writing software for other car makers to use.  I have been involved with 'old style' car makers pretty much all my working life installing robots and technology, and it is a brutal, low margin dog-eat-dog business (relying on selling vast numbers of cars to make even a reasonably modest profit),  where one recall can cost you the profit you made on the vehicle in the first place.

It is early days yet and the established car makers are moving into territory Tesla had to themselves for a while...........it will be interesting,  another slice of humble pie anyone ?

https://www.wired.com/2017/04/detroit-stomping-silicon-valley-self-driving-car-race/
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 18, 2017, 10:27:12 AM
It is early days yet and the established car makers are moving into territory Tesla had to themselves for a while...........it will be interesting
Without a doubt. Whoever ends up building electric cars in the future, EVs are here to stay, and the time of the ICE powered car is in the wane.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on September 18, 2017, 02:23:13 PM
I agree Jocko. We are witnessing the end of the Internal Combustion Engine - the end of an era - an exciting era and one that has opened up personal mobility to millions but it's time for something else.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on September 19, 2017, 12:47:14 PM
Useful article http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41268513 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41268513).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on September 19, 2017, 04:42:22 PM
Useful article http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41268513 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41268513).

Quite a balanced and common sense article,  quite a shock to get anything balanced from the BBC lately.  These days they are so liberal / left that it clearly shows in their coverage of pretty much everything.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 19, 2017, 05:01:57 PM
quite a shock to get anything balanced from the BBC lately.
My thoughts, exactly.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest4871 on September 19, 2017, 05:34:41 PM
quite a shock to get anything balanced from the BBC lately.
My thoughts, exactly.

Even if it is an electric shock.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 20, 2017, 12:26:10 PM
The news, today, is about an electric bus which has just travelled over 1000 miles on one charge.
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/9EF5/production/_97939604_electricbus.gif)
The 40ft Catalyst E2 Max bus has a 660 kWh battery.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-41333063 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-41333063)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on September 20, 2017, 12:45:01 PM
The payload of an electric bus is nothing compared to an HGV,  50 passengers at 100kg each is still only 5 tonnes, and 1 tone of luggage would be a lot.

You get to the point of diminishing returns when you try to run vehicles with a big payload (20 tones or more) off batteries where the weight of the batteries required becomes way too heavy and reduces the payload considerably - that is why one of the few heavy vehicles that is practical and in use runs off a big hydrogen fuel cell.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 20, 2017, 12:55:49 PM
I didn't say anything about HGV's. The bus has a huge floor area which allows for the installation of a huge battery. This is not the same as an HGV. Probably could be possible (just about) for a LGV though.
Stagecoach, for whom I drove, has a fleet of over 8,000 buses. That is a huge market for EV's
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest4871 on September 20, 2017, 01:04:36 PM
The payload of an electric bus is nothing compared to an HGV,  50 passengers at 100kg each is still only 5 tonnes, and 1 tone of luggage would be a lot.

You get to the point of diminishing returns when you try to run vehicles with a big payload (20 tones or more) off batteries where the weight of the batteries required becomes way too heavy and reduces the payload considerably - that is why one of the few heavy vehicles that is practical and in use runs off a big hydrogen fuel cell.

Presumably that's why the electric milk float died? We use to get an electric bakers van too. The fishmonger and butcher used cycle delivery.  All sounds quite modern now!
 
Tanfield recently set out to build battery powered courier vans for TNT but I think that too died a death.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 20, 2017, 01:17:05 PM
Back in the 50's our local Co-op had an electric baker's shop that used to trundle all round the town. It wasn't very fast but managed a 6 - 8 hour shift.
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/9e/17/5e/9e175efeece8cb6e3a97e18536ffc0f0.jpg)
It was similar to this Smiths van here.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest1372 on September 23, 2017, 11:28:13 AM
You get to the point of diminishing returns when you try to run vehicles with a big payload (20 tones or more) off batteries where the weight of the batteries required becomes way too heavy and reduces the payload considerably
"Despite the amount of energy required to move this 110-ton beast, it turns out that it can be done with an electric powertrain.

Lithium Storage GmbH and Kuhn Schweiz AG disassembled the Komatsu 605-7 and replaced the diesel engine with a synchronous electric motor capable of 590kW (800hp) of continuous power and up to 9,500 Nm torque.  They originally planned to fit a massive 600 kWh lithium-ion battery pack to power the electric motor, but they actually managed to fit 700 kWh of energy capacity on the chassis of the vehicle by using 1,440 prismatic NMC cells for a total battery pack weight of 4.5 tons."

"The truck's daily schedule - trucking material from a mountain ridge down into a valley 20 times a day - makes it ideal for electric conversion. Instead of wasting heat energy on the brakes as the truck descends, the energy can be harvested and used to charge the batteries.  If all goes as planned, the team claims, the truck apparently harvests more energy going downhill than it needs for the ascent, so it can actually feed surplus electricity into the grid (It's not exactly clear how that squares with the laws of thermodynamics).

.... the truck will be able to recuperate 40 kWh of its way down, something the truck does 20 times a day for a total of 800 kWh of energy capacity through regenerative braking."

--
TG
(https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2017/09/e-dumper-stopperbild.jpg)

http://www.techradar.com/news/the-worlds-biggest-electric-vehicle-is-this-dumper-truck
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 23, 2017, 09:02:44 PM
the team claims, the truck apparently harvests more energy going downhill than it needs for the ascent, so it can actually feed surplus electricity into the grid (It's not exactly clear how that squares with the laws of thermodynamics).
They may go downhill loaded and uphill empty.
Some of these big dumper trucks are actually driverless. Works well in the confine of the quarry or mine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_Re68mLf9Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_Re68mLf9Q)
(https://static1.squarespace.com/static/54f4cf23e4b02841c1824db0/t/56352b6be4b0767213f41332/1446325103927/giant+self+driving+dump+truck)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 25, 2017, 02:28:17 PM
On the news today, that the Chief Executive of Scottish Power says the UK needs to increase its generating capacity by 25% to cope with electric cars and the shift to electric heating. Keith Anderson was speaking as the firm reached the milestone of 2,000  megawatts of wind power capacity.That equates to about an eighth of the British total.
He also said there would have to be a major investment in the wiring necessary to handle rapid charging of car batteries.
He said that once the price of electric cars falls to that of petrol or diesel, which it is thought will happen between 2022 and 2025, there could be a rapid shift in buying patterns and electricity usage.
Earlier this month, First Minister Nicola Sturgeon announced a target of shifting from petrol and diesel-fuelled cars to battery power by 2032, while the UK government intends to make that shift by 2040.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-41373466 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-41373466)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 26, 2017, 06:33:10 PM
I see Dyson have announced they are investing £2bn to start building battery powered electric cars. He will have a car ready by 2020. Seemingly a team of 400 engineers have been working on the project for the past 2 years. He is keeping his cards close to his chest on details.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on September 26, 2017, 07:35:08 PM
I see Dyson have announced they are investing £2bn to start building battery powered electric cars. He will have a car ready by 2020. Seemingly a team of 400 engineers have been working on the project for the past 2 years. He is keeping his cards close to his chest on details.

Hope the cars are put together better than his vacuum cleaners.  Is he expecting to clean up the market ? Wonder why he hopes to succeed where the silicon valley whizz kids have failed ? Car makers have the skills to make cars, they can buy in any tech they need.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 26, 2017, 07:44:57 PM
I have a Dyson vacuum cleaner and it is brilliant. Been using it for a few years now. Even the battery lasts well, which surprised me.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest4871 on September 26, 2017, 10:01:33 PM
I see Dyson have announced they are investing £2bn to start building battery powered electric cars. He will have a car ready by 2020. Seemingly a team of 400 engineers have been working on the project for the past 2 years. He is keeping his cards close to his chest on details.

Hope the cars are put together better than his vacuum cleaners.  Is he expecting to clean up the market ? Wonder why he hopes to succeed where the silicon valley whizz kids have failed ? Car makers have the skills to make cars, they can buy in any tech they need.

To be fair I suspect he is focusing on the motors and batteries. Any car maker can assembly the car. He seems to  have recruited the Product Development Director of Aston Martin. The car won't be cheap!

Bloombergs account below sets out an interesting insight into Dyson's aspirations.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-09-26/dyson-will-build-radically-different-electric-car-by-2020

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/dyson-car-former-aston-martin-product-development-director-joins-dyson

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on September 27, 2017, 08:18:17 AM
One of the articles says Dyson has no plans (or the money) to set up charging infrastructure and is looking for government money (i.e. taxpayers money) to fit 21kw charging points in people's homes, now 21kw is about 84 amps, and the total supply to most homes is 80 to 100 amps (with a supply company fuse to protect their cables). You really won't be able to have a shower or boil your kettle while car is charging LOL - I don't think supply companies have the money or the will to upgrade their infrastructure to give houses extra power, and the cables are not sized for all households to draw max current at same time (diversity factor), so it will be equivalent of Tesla power wall in the house to level out the demand on the supply cables.

Dyson also says their car won't be cheap (which is a given for Dyson stuff, their hand driers are best part of £2grand each)  what he does not say is if it will be held together with flimsy plastic tags that break when you try to open a cover to fix the car).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 27, 2017, 08:30:05 AM
One of the articles says Dyson has no plans (or the money) to set up charging infrastructure and is looking for government money (i.e. taxpayers money) to fit 21kw charging points in people's homes

Dyson also says their car won't be cheap
Can you please link to the articles quoted as I am having trouble finding them?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 27, 2017, 08:54:40 AM
Found this reference: "There's no point in doing one that looks like everyone else's," he said, adding that it would not be a sports car and it would not be "a very cheap" car.
A big difference between "a very cheap" car and won't be cheap. A Tesla is not cheap, but to me a very cheap car is the likes of the Tata Nano or the old Kia Pride. I think what he is saying is it won't be a Sinclair C5!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 27, 2017, 09:03:16 AM
How about one of these. The Bollinger. Look familiar?
(http://bollingermotors.com/assets/img/compressed/0875_Bollinger_TopCarousel_01_86A2872_Resized.png)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on September 27, 2017, 10:50:16 AM
One of the articles says Dyson has no plans (or the money) to set up charging infrastructure and is looking for government money (i.e. taxpayers money) to fit 21kw charging points in people's homes

Dyson also says their car won't be cheap
Can you please link to the articles quoted as I am having trouble finding them?

They are the links in zzaj post, Bloomberg and autocar articles.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on September 27, 2017, 11:09:11 AM
One of the issues that is becoming more apparent (to me anyway) is just how inadequate the current charging infrastructure is for charging electric cars on the move. Now we will not need as many individual outlets as we do petrol stations because around 90% of charging is done at home but there are still charging deserts and still journeys that are next to impossible in an EV.

In short, despite the best efforts of some really quite small players like Ecotricity and Charge Your Car, the network is pants, garbage, rubbish - whatever you like to call it and the responsibility for that needs dumping where it belongs and that is on most EV manufacturers who appear to have zero interest in creating a useable network. Only Tesla "get" what is required and that is multiple chargers at each location so there is always a charger free and always a charger working.

Sometimes you need to set targets to focus minds - we probably all had targets set for us at work - I know I did so this would be a workable target:

"It should be possible to charge an EV at 50 mile intervals. That charger should be rapid. Charging should be standardised across all makes and the need for Apps to check in advance should be abolished."

How hard can it be given the will? I can see why governments have set a 2040 deadline because we are light years away from a useable charging network. Currently EVs remain something for the "Early Adopters" amongst us. Nothing wrong with that but I won't buy an EV until the target above is reached. At my age that may well mean never.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on September 27, 2017, 11:15:33 AM
Just to add - read a post on an EV forum recently - another target:

"200 miles range at 70 mph with aircon, heating, wipers and lights on in wet weather at 5 degrees. That car to cost no more than a comparable ICE car."

This probably in reach and might mean the charging network target becomes less essential although should still be an aspiration
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 27, 2017, 11:19:00 AM
They are the links in zzaj post, Bloomberg and autocar articles.
Right thanks, Bloombergs wouldn't allow me to see their page because of my ad blocker. Disabled it and found the parts you were referring to.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 27, 2017, 11:26:22 AM
There is no doubt that the charging infrastructure is letting EVs down, and until it is up to scratch then uptake of EVs will never reach its full potential (no pun intended). It is not in Nissan, GM, BMW, Ford, etcs own interest to invest in charging. They sell ICE cars and would be more than happy to do so foe ever and a day. As Tesla only sell EVs they have to offer charging support. If Ford suddenly found it could only sell EVs in the UK (as it will do after 2040) it will bend over backwards to provide charging infrastructure. The same will go for all the other ICE manufacturers.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest5079 on September 27, 2017, 11:42:42 AM
If Mr Dyson is looking into the EV market and he is keeping it all close to his chest, can one blame him? When he developed his vacuum cleaner with it's cyclone he had to take on Electrolux and others who pinched his ideas.
We had two Dysons in earlier years and we had problems. We have just dumped the second Miele, which was conforming to the new EU regs it was useless. In the spring we bought one of Mr Dyson's DC40's and it is still lifting stuff that the Miele left behind and I can assure you this is not a dirty house
The DC40 is well inside the EU directive.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: pb82gh3 on September 27, 2017, 12:34:36 PM
Almost all my battery powered devices at home take AA or AAA rechargeable batteries, so refreshing batteries is very quick and simple. I suppose it would be too much to hope that the motor industry could cooperate and standardise so that simple and quick battery swap in/out was achievable.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on September 27, 2017, 02:27:18 PM
If Mr Dyson is looking into the EV market and he is keeping it all close to his chest, can one blame him? When he developed his vacuum cleaner with it's cyclone he had to take on Electrolux and others who pinched his ideas.
We had two Dysons in earlier years and we had problems. We have just dumped the second Miele, which was conforming to the new EU regs it was useless. In the spring we bought one of Mr Dyson's DC40's and it is still lifting stuff that the Miele left behind and I can assure you this is not a dirty house
The DC40 is well inside the EU directive.

The 'Dyson' cyclone had been in use for a very long time in industry before it was 'discovered' by Sir James in the 1980's, the cyclone was patented by Robert Kent in 1917.  When Jimmy was a kid he used to visit a sawmill near his house and saw how they sucked up the sawdust and separated it, a similar device has been used in compressed air filters for ages to separate water out of compressed air. The other vacuum cleaner makers were making more profit out of replaceable  dust filters than they ever made out of selling the cleaners so were in no hurry to change their designs even though they were well aware of the cyclone principles (same thing now with printers, they virtually give the printers away just so you will have to buy their ink cartridges).

The other makers came out with competing cyclone cleaners very quickly because Sir Jimmy could not really patent something that he did not invent.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 27, 2017, 03:11:36 PM
same thing now with printers, they virtually give test printers away just so you will have to buy their ink cartridges
I can vouch for this. I worked for Lexmark, in their cartridge production factory in Rosyth (before they closed down their UK operation because of our stringent health and safety culture). The cartridges we produced, for distribution with new printers, held enough ink to do the initial set up and print a couple of foolscap sheets. After that, you had to buy the cartridges made with Chanel No5, 50 year old malt, and unicorn urine.
The sale price of the printers doesn't quite recover the cost of manufacturing.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on September 27, 2017, 05:11:56 PM
There is no doubt that the charging infrastructure is letting EVs down, and until it is up to scratch then uptake of EVs will never reach its full potential (no pun intended). It is not in Nissan, GM, BMW, Ford, etcs own interest to invest in charging. They sell ICE cars and would be more than happy to do so foe ever and a day. As Tesla only sell EVs they have to offer charging support. If Ford suddenly found it could only sell EVs in the UK (as it will do after 2040) it will bend over backwards to provide charging infrastructure. The same will go for all the other ICE manufacturers.

Excellent summary of why we are where we are.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on September 27, 2017, 06:04:59 PM
Almost all my battery powered devices at home take AA or AAA rechargeable batteries, so refreshing batteries is very quick and simple. I suppose it would be too much to hope that the motor industry could cooperate and standardise so that simple and quick battery swap in/out was achievable.

As battery capacity and performance are a - if not THE - KEY element in EV performace, any suggestion of a universal battery size/fittings is pie in the sky. Furthermore BIG EVs require bigger batteries than small EVs so battery interchangeability is not going to be easy.
And a standard battery layout would constrain makers of differing car types and sizes.
In my opinion, it is never going to happen.. Until batteries weigh under 10kgs and are under 10*10*10cms in size...
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 27, 2017, 06:14:27 PM
Seven minutes and a few seconds into this video shows them fitting the "small" battery fitted to the Renault ZOE. You can appreciate why they are not readily changeable.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxGauhTIRXQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxGauhTIRXQ)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on September 28, 2017, 05:48:01 PM
Almost all my battery powered devices at home take AA or AAA rechargeable batteries, so refreshing batteries is very quick and simple. I suppose it would be too much to hope that the motor industry could cooperate and standardise so that simple and quick battery swap in/out was achievable.

As battery capacity and performance are a - if not THE - KEY element in EV performace, any suggestion of a universal battery size/fittings is pie in the sky. Furthermore BIG EVs require bigger batteries than small EVs so battery interchangeability is not going to be easy.
And a standard battery layout would constrain makers of differing car types and sizes.
In my opinion, it is never going to happen.. Until batteries weigh under 10kgs and are under 10*10*10cms in size...

And, just in support of this, it isn't even possible to swap the 24kwh battery in the Nissan Leaf for a 30kwh - not through official channels anyway.

Wonder, if at some time in the future, there might be after market players entering the fray?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest1372 on September 28, 2017, 06:38:48 PM
With the whole platform concept such as the MQB (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Group_MQB_platform) with VW/Skoda/Audi/Seat it should be theoretically possible to have a standard range of batteries but the rate of change is so rapid that a 2019 battery is likely to be much better than a 2017 version.  An engineering manager I know who is indirectly involved in analysing tear-downs of competitors cars tells me that the battery management, monitoring, cooling & protection takes up more room than the battery itself in a BMW i3.  It seems quite likely that these ancillaries will be so tightly integrated that it will take much more than just a cell swap to have a viable upgrade or renewal path.
--
TG
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on September 29, 2017, 09:14:04 AM
As with pretty much anything, it is the early adopters that get the problems and take the financial hit. Wait till it has settled down and tech is sorted, soon the subsidised honeymoon period will be over and governments will show their hand on new tax regimes for EV, new real world prices for public charging points etc. My guess is road pricing will be introduced because governments can't have differential taxes for electricity used to charge EV at home and power used for domestic purposes unless they have two meters one for house and one for car, which would be pretty much impossible to enforce as people can charge (more slowly at 3kw from a regular 13amp socket), they cannot expect other electrical power users to subsidise EV users fuel.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on September 29, 2017, 11:48:01 AM
I can certainly see some new tax regime being necessary once EVs take off in a big way. Good point about early adopters - some of the contortions they go through with short range EVs are simply unacceptable to a majority of people used to the convenience of ICE cars or, of course, hybrids. The rest of us depend on early adopters, they perform a useful service but I might have mentioned a trip from Warrington to a village just outside of Rotherham - 140 miles. I did some research, on a purely academic basis, to see if this trip was possible in an EV. It wasn't - end of.

Not only were there no chargers on either of the main trans Pennine routes to Sheffield but a zap-map check on using the M62 as an alternative (140 miles became 180 incidentally) revealed that the Ecotricity chargers at the service station I would have used were out of order on both carriageways. Yesterday, because I'd had a discussion with a mate who simply wouldn't believe that the trip was impossible, I got onto a site that plans a route for you including charge stops.

It indicated that I wouldn't reach my destination in a Nissan Leaf!!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 29, 2017, 09:42:41 PM
Edinburgh is introducing electric buses starting this Sunday. They will run on a city centre route, through the worst polluted part of the city.
The buses have a 130 mile range and can be recharged in 3 or 4 hours.

(http://cdn-01.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/uk/article36178479.ece/0adf9/AUTOCROP/w620h342/bpanews_503ae332-1973-4864-9821-08fabece1847_1)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-41429207 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-41429207)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on September 30, 2017, 09:59:59 AM
An ideal use for an EV due to stop start nature of buses, battery charge could also be topped up at bus stops if inductive coils were fitted in the road activated by RFI chips in the bus. Wonder how the passenger heating and cooling is powered, as buses are notorious for being either too hot or too cold, and windows always misted up inside on wet days.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 01, 2017, 10:34:36 PM
Watched the Fully Charged review of the new Volkswagen E Golf - and I want one. It is a classic Golf but an EV to boot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9LZNQBfm9U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9LZNQBfm9U)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 02, 2017, 09:09:38 AM
Watched the Fully Charged review of the new Volkswagen E Golf - and I want one. It is a classic Golf but an EV to boot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9LZNQBfm9U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9LZNQBfm9U)

If you wait 12 months you will pick one up for less than half  price of a new one LOL, caveat emptor !
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 02, 2017, 09:39:30 AM
There is currently a £4,500 grant towards the cost of a new E Golf, plus the current scrappage scheme. Makes buying a new one at the moment rather attractive. A 2016 model will cost about £21K with a new one £32K minus discounts, so no real incentive to buy a second hand car.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 02, 2017, 10:34:21 AM
Watched the Fully Charged review of the new Volkswagen E Golf - and I want one. It is a classic Golf but an EV to boot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9LZNQBfm9U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9LZNQBfm9U)

If you wait 12 months you will pick one up for less than half  price of a new one LOL, caveat emptor !

The pricing of EVs - generally - is a bit of a tangled web. For example the headline price of a new Nissan Leaf 30 kwh car may be around £27,000 but almost nobody pays that. I asked car wow to get me some quotes from Nissan dealers for a brand new 30kwh Leaf (as an academic exercise) and you were looking at £19,000 tops and the cheapest offer I got was £18,500 so the depreciation looks horrendous but that's only if you were daft enough to pay the sticker price.

An interesting little twist in the market at the moment is Nissan's scrappage scheme. You can chop your old diesel in against second hand Leafs - this seems to have firmed up the prices especially on the 30 kwh Leaf which is almost as expensive second hand as car wow can do a new one for.

And finally, even more than most cars, EV's are typically leased or PCP'd.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 02, 2017, 12:09:23 PM
You have to be careful with the Nissan Leaf. Often you think "that's a great price", then find out the battery is on a lease.
Talking of Nissan Leafs. There is a taxi firm, here in Kirkcaldy, using the Nissan Leafs, and NHS Fife has bought a fleet of  Nissan e-NV200s, to replace their small vans.
These ones are in Northumbria.

(http://nissaninsider.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Northumbria-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest1372 on October 02, 2017, 02:44:56 PM
At ex-colleagues company where VW Group is a client, they have an e-Golf & 4 GTE in the pool, the latter of which are first choice over a fairly wide range of other desirable stuff.
--
TG
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 02, 2017, 03:24:53 PM
The GTE is very desirable too, being a Plug in hybrid. Has more oomph and, of course, greater range.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 02, 2017, 04:53:06 PM
The reason people lease or pcp EV is battery, its like with an ICE car saying you can have the car for £150 a month,  but if you want the petrol tank it will cost you an extra £80 a month,  or you can buy the petrol tank outright for £8000, but we advise you to get petrol tank insurance because if it goes bad a service replacement petrol tank will cost you about £5000.

As Jocko says, most cheaper used EV have battery on lease, so add £70 to 80 a month to running costs,  and who would pay good money for a 4 year old EV with battery owned outright, with a chance that battery may go bad at any time.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 02, 2017, 05:51:51 PM
That is one good reason to buy a car new and buy the battery outright. If you treat the battery correctly there is no reason why it won't last the life of the car. The e-Golf’s 24 kWh lithium ion battery pack is covered with an 8-year, 100,000 mile warranty. Volkswagen says they developed the battery pack with the “intention of it having 80 per cent of its original capacity after 10 years’ use.” The target is based on an electric vehicle travelling about 9000 miles annually.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 02, 2017, 06:40:43 PM
One thing to remember with an EV battery is that you are only allowed to access 75 to 80% of its rated capacity, this is to protect the battery as no battery ever likes to be fully discharged, as it will damage the battery chemistry. The real world range of e Golf is about 120 miles, with economy mode available for longer range where the car switches off air on, heating etc.  I read in a few articles that with EV things like heated seats and heated steering wheel are fitted instead of normal 'whole car' heating because it gives an 'impression' of the car being warm, but uses less energy. The normal yardstick of 3 (normal) to 4 (economy) miles per Kw/h for EV would lead you to believe that e Golf with 24kw/h battery should have a range of 75 to 100 miles max, so they must be using regeneration to top up battery. The original 24kw/h battery fitted to a Nissan Leaf would only give 70 miles range.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 02, 2017, 07:30:15 PM
The e-Golf has a 35.8 kWh battery, driver selectable regenerative braking and, according to Jonny Smith of Fully Charged, he got 130 miles without using regenerative braking and without reducing the output by selecting Eco or Super Eco modes. There is also a Heat pump optional extra which reduces the electric power usage of the heating system by recycling heat from ambient air and waste heat from the drivetrain components. Mind you, most of my driving is done with no heating on anyway. I normally only do 4 miles at a time, and, to save fuel by letting the engine warm up, I leave the heater matrix closed off. Only time I put the heater on is when the coolant temperature achieves 80°C, which only ever happens on my weekend 80 mile jaunts. And I reckon the e-Golf will happily manage 80 miles, plus a bit of cabin heat, on one charge.
Mind you, that's a moot point, as I will be moving south of Edinburgh before getting an EV (whatever I go for), so I won't have my 80 mile weekend trips!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 02, 2017, 08:26:31 PM
The e-Golf’s 24 kWh lithium ion battery pack is covered with an 8-year, 100,000 mile warranty.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 02, 2017, 08:56:14 PM
On the Leaf my information is that a majority on the second hand market have the battery bought - ie not on a lease of £70 per month. Some of the more enlightened dealers - Chorley Group Motors in the North West for example - have all their used stock as battery owned - they buy out the leases if the car has one. They have realised that "flex" cars, as they are known, are pretty much unsellable on the used car market.

It's much more of a problem with the Renault Zoe.

But something you should always check.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 02, 2017, 10:04:33 PM
The e-Golf’s 24 kWh lithium ion battery pack is covered with an 8-year, 100,000 mile warranty.
That is the old model. The one I am looking at is the new one with the bigger battery. Still 8 year, 100,000 miles though.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 02, 2017, 10:15:08 PM
From VW UK site:

e-Golf 136PS BEV
Maximum speed (where law permits)   93mph
Gearbox   Direct Drive
Torque   214 lbs.ft
Power   136PS
Acceleration (0-62mph)   9.6 sec
CO2 Emissions   TBA
Payload   480kg
Battery Type   Lithium Ion
Max Power   TBA
Nominal Capacity   35.8kWh
DC Charge Time   60 minutes
AC Charge Time   650 minutes
Nominal Voltage   323V
Battery Weight   318Kg
Range, NEDC cycle   186miles
Battery Warranty   8years
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 02, 2017, 10:28:15 PM
Performance a bit disappointing, my Civic with 140ponies (about same power as VW claim) does 0-60 in 8.2 sec and over 130mph (speed limit permitting LOL). Also sounds luvverley.

Could it be that at 1540kg the VW is a bit porky compared to Civic at 1300kg.

Read in auto car review that VW gets to 60 OK, but 'runs out of steam' after that, what does that mean when going up a hill at 70 or over ?

If you look on EV car forums they complain that NEDC figures for range are even less accurate than mpg figures claimed for ICE vehicles, and if you get near 80% of claimed range you are doing very well, and more variables with a battery to affect range. In tests I read on Tesla a decent run on motorway at 70 dropped the range from claimed 320 down to just over 200 miles, that has never happened to any ICE car I have driven.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 03, 2017, 07:21:13 AM
culzean. I know you just don't like electric car and will never ever own one. For me the e-Golf is ideal. As I never go faster than 60 mph it doesn't matter a toss if it runs out of steam above that speed. 0-60 times mean sod all. As Top Gear once showed, a car that does 0-40 in 2 seconds and on to 60 in 10 accelerates much faster than a car that does 0-40 in 7 seconds and goes on to 60 in 10. For a manual transmission 0-60 times are measured using brutal gear changes and seldom seen by normal drivers. The e-Golf however has no gears hence no need for gear changes, brutal or otherwise. Which also explains why it runs out of acceleration above 60 mph. This is a function of the axle ratio.
Regarding range. The figures NEDC comes up with are probably just imagined. They give relative numbers between different vehicles tested in the same way. Nothing else. The figures I quoted were as experienced by Jonny Smith on "Fully Charged".
What I am saying is, when I am in a position to buy and run an electric car I will do. It may be an e-Golf, or a Leaf or even - if the gods smile on me - a Tesla. When the time comes I will have an EV.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 03, 2017, 10:22:09 AM


If you look on EV car forums they complain that NEDC figures for range are even less accurate than mpg figures claimed for ICE vehicles, and if you get near 80% of claimed range you are doing very well, and more variables with a battery to affect range. In tests I read on Tesla a decent run on motorway at 70 dropped the range from claimed 320 down to just over 200 miles, that has never happened to any ICE car I have driven.

The NEDC ratings are almost useless. That Golf will never, ever, do 186 miles or anything even remotely close. Just as the 30 kwh Leaf will never, ever do 155 miles or the 24 kwh Leaf ever do 124 miles.

A rough rule of thumb is that you could possibly rely on two thirds of the NEDC range so I reckon the Golf will be good for around 120 miles in the real world.

The American EPA figures are much better because unlike the bent, corrupt NEDC rules they approximate to real life situations. So NEDC for the 30 kwh Leaf is 155 - the EPA is 107.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 03, 2017, 10:39:59 AM
NEDC says 186 but Volkswagen says, that in the real world it will do 124. Jonny Smith reckoned 130 miles in Normal mode. There is also ECO and ECO+. In ECO+ mode the e-Golf is limited to 56 mph and that stretches the economy some. 120 miles would suit me.
My mate, Brian, doesn't own a car, but hires one when circumstances make it necessary. He hires a car about three times a year. I'd be happy to do that if I needed to make a long journey that the EV wouldn't manage. Enterprise picks you up and drops you back home, after you return your rental.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 03, 2017, 10:54:00 AM

The NEDC ratings are almost useless. That Golf will never, ever, do 186 miles or anything even remotely close. Just as the 30 kwh Leaf will never, ever do 155 miles or the 24 kwh Leaf ever do 124 miles.

A rough rule of thumb is that you could possibly rely on two thirds of the NEDC range so I reckon the Golf will be good for around 120 miles in the real world.

The American EPA figures are much better because unlike the bent, corrupt NEDC rules they approximate to real life situations. So NEDC for the 30 kwh Leaf is 155 - the EPA is 107.

Even though there are choices of economy modes it looks as though VW  have already limited the standard performance in the interests of battery range.  For the claimed 135PS power the performance is nowhere near what you should expect. I gave my Civic (with pretty much identical power)  performance as an example of what should be available. The fact that the eGolf is about 250kg heavier than Civic is a clue, but not the whole story.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 03, 2017, 01:01:36 PM
NEDC says 186 but Volkswagen says, that in the real world it will do 124. Jonny Smith reckoned 130 miles in Normal mode. There is also ECO and ECO+. In ECO+ mode the e-Golf is limited to 56 mph and that stretches the economy some. 120 miles would suit me.
My mate, Brian, doesn't own a car, but hires one when circumstances make it necessary. He hires a car about three times a year. I'd be happy to do that if I needed to make a long journey that the EV wouldn't manage. Enterprise picks you up and drops you back home, after you return your rental.

That's a point - hiring a car - that is often missed. Many in the current EV community are early adopters and have a certain pioneering spirit. I, like you I suspect, have watched hours of YouTube footage on EVs and renewable energy generally. I've seen people fiddling about with Apps and bits of plastic in the pouring rain, having to get permission to use the service road and other inconveniences including actually running out. In a reply to a comment I'd made on one early adopter's YouTube channel about these ridiculous Apps he said that fiddling about in the rain was a "rite of passage."

A rite of passage I'm happy to let the early adopters get on with. A more balanced outlook comes from people like Michael Boxwell who has written a book about the Nissan Leaf. He says that if you drive more than 50 miles more than a few times a month AND if the EV is going to be your only car then they are not for you at this point. He described a long trip to Cornwall in an EV as being tedious and wearying.

But as you say, £110 road tax is 2 thirds the way towards a hire car for a week. If an EV can do 90% or more of your journeys then they become viable.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 03, 2017, 05:29:30 PM
The American EPA figures are much better because unlike the bent, corrupt NEDC rules they approximate to real life situations. So NEDC for the 30 kwh Leaf is 155 - the EPA is 107.

The General figure for range on BEV is 3 to 4 miles per kw/h - with 3 being for normal driving and 4 for economy mode. Due to electric motor and transmission and inverter being same weight as engine in ICE and anywhere between 150 to 300 kg for battery, unless some serious weight reduction goes on (which BMW tried to do by using carbon fibre in i3 and i8) then range can only be improved by lighter more energy dense battery.

I believe that range is calculated at steady 50 to 55 mph, probably with everything electrical turned off.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 03, 2017, 08:29:46 PM
I know Robert Llewellyn, when he had a Leaf before his Tesla, tried to get 100 miles out of his 24 kwh Leaf. This involved driving, on a fine day, at a constant 40 mph (I think he said). The NEDC figures are almost criminally deceptive but then we know that from claims for ICE cars in terms of mpg.

I thought a new system was imminent - seems to have gone quiet on that front.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on October 04, 2017, 08:58:18 AM
Don't know about electric cars stamina and duration, but I reckon this thread has got a lot of life left in it yet.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 04, 2017, 10:42:49 AM
Don't know about electric cars stamina and duration, but I reckon this thread has got a lot of life left in it yet.

No range anxiety on this thread then. 

Best description I heard of EV battery was 'rubber bucket' which sums up the variables of battery temperature, ambient temperature, battery age etc.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on October 04, 2017, 11:04:11 AM
The trouble with EVs simply put is:
The most sensible place to use EVs is in cities. Charging in cities for many flat dwellers has huge issues.
Most people who try to walk and cycle tend to use cars in bad weather and winter. Range of EVs plummets in winter due to use of heating/wipers etc.
Electricity infrastructures - cables, switchgear and substations are designed for average domestic us of well under 30 Amps on average.  EVs need to be charged at as high a current as possible or recharging at under 30 Amps takes hours and hours..


Structural issues like the above are neither easy to fix nor cheap nor can they be done in a hurry.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 04, 2017, 11:26:59 AM
Some good points by madasafish. The marketing people at Toyota have cottoned on to this in pushing their hybrid cars, the advert for the Yaris Hybrid sees it driving past an EV charge point covered in cobwebs. There's another item I picked up where they had recorded maximum test drives conducted in EV only mode so they can see that buyers who might well be concerned about air quality and/or climate change together with fuel economy can be turned away from full EV's at least until the joke charging network is improved and it is a joke.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest5079 on October 04, 2017, 12:07:17 PM
When I started this particular post on the 12th July 2017, I never thought it would produce the amount of discussion it has.
Two points I would like to stir the pot with, when J Clakson tested some BMW highbrid??????? allegedly giving some fantastic mileage per gallon, he was very upset as I believe he found the car did little more to the gallon than the standard  equivalent BMW. Now Jocko, a VW surely you as a canny Scott are not going to fall for yet another VW sleight of hand?
Perhaps this will get another few months of controversy.
I might be deaf I might be a miserable ol git but I can still indulge in a bit of mixing.
The Middle East and  the ICE manufacturers are never going down without a fight. Oh of course they will all pay lip service but when money comes into the equation only the wealthy( the large worldwide producers) will survive it's the law of averages. Whether it will be EV's or something else.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 04, 2017, 12:20:29 PM
Just expanding on what auntyneddy says above, I sometimes watch YouTube videos by an Australian called John Cadogan. He doesn't mince his words and can be quite funny. He did a hilarious review of the Mitsubishi Plug in Hybrid and claimed that the official mpg figures were bent to the point of corruption. He made the very valid point that when it was not in EV mode it was spectacularly inefficient as it was lugging an internal combustion engine, an electric motor and a heavy battery around. Of course it was slightly unfair as, if used as they should be used, the petrol motor would only be used on longer trips.

I may have mentioned, as well, that a BMW dealer is on record as saying that many buyers of the BMW plug in hybrid never charged the battery up buying it because the Benefit in Kind tax system was more favourable.

I'm less sure the resistance to EVs - long term - will be as strong as you think though. Some signs that oil companies are starting to move into the EV charging market. A light bulb has gone on. Shell will be charging 49 pence per unit of electricity as opposed to a typical 14 pence domestic unit.

Kerrching! - you can almost hear the finance director saying.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 04, 2017, 12:31:07 PM


I may have mentioned, as well, that a BMW dealer is on record as saying that many buyers of the BMW plug in hybrid never charged the battery up buying it because the Benefit in Kind tax system was more favourable.

I'm less sure the resistance to EVs - long term - will be as strong as you think though. Some signs that oil companies are starting to move into the EV charging market. A light bulb has gone on. Shell will be charging 49 pence per unit of electricity as opposed to a typical 14 pence domestic unit.

Kerrching! - you can almost hear the finance director saying.

A viable EV charging network is going to cost serious money and will have to be paid for somehow, it should not be down to bottomless pocket of taxpayer or people that use electrical power for reasons other than charging EV to continue subsidizing EV users.

I look forward to the day when the EV hype settles down and honeymoon period is over and users pay full cost of buying and running their vehicle, without subsidies,  only then will we get the full picture and a level playing field, and be able to make a rational decision.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 04, 2017, 01:26:11 PM
Now Jocko, a VW surely you as a canny Scot are not going to fall for yet another VW sleight of hand?
I wouldn't trust Volkswagen as far as I could throw them, but the range was that achieved  by Jonny Smith of "Fully Charged", and he did say that after years of lying to us, VW finally appeared to be telling the truth regarding the real world range of the e-Golf.
I am not drawn to a hybrid. If you are going to have an ICE then why bother with the weight of a battery and electric motor too. I'd rather stick with a conventional car.
When I move over to the south side of Edinburgh I fancy an EV for the short trips around the city and to the shops. I'll have a drive and garage/workshop, I want to put PV's on the roof, and who knows, if funds permit, I may even go for a Powerwall.
However, between now and then, something better may come along. Honda may offer a Jazz EV. Or perhaps autonomous vehicles, you call up instead of own, may take over. Or I may even have to give up driving altogether! Who knows what the future may hold for us.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 04, 2017, 02:54:52 PM
http://www.msn.com/en-gb/cars/news/ford-plans-to-shift-focus-to-suvs-and-evs/ar-AAsSVvN?li=AA8sb7&ocid=spartandhp

Ford planning big move away from traditional cars. Hybrids and EVs dominating future line ups.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 04, 2017, 03:01:36 PM


I may have mentioned, as well, that a BMW dealer is on record as saying that many buyers of the BMW plug in hybrid never charged the battery up buying it because the Benefit in Kind tax system was more favourable.

I'm less sure the resistance to EVs - long term - will be as strong as you think though. Some signs that oil companies are starting to move into the EV charging market. A light bulb has gone on. Shell will be charging 49 pence per unit of electricity as opposed to a typical 14 pence domestic unit.

Kerrching! - you can almost hear the finance director saying.

A viable EV charging network is going to cost serious money and will have to be paid for somehow, it should not be down to bottomless pocket of taxpayer or people that use electrical power for reasons other than charging EV to continue subsidizing EV users.

I look forward to the day when the EV hype settles down and honeymoon period is over and users pay full cost of buying and running their vehicle, without subsidies,  only then will we get the full picture and a level playing field, and be able to make a rational decision.

Subsidies, of one sort or another, are involved in almost all energy production - especially nuclear. There is, in my view, a very strong case for subsidies to stop dirty vehicles polluting our towns and cities.

Or, alternatively, punitive congestion charges. The change needs to be pushed and pushed hard.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 04, 2017, 03:04:57 PM
Sorry - was going to put this link in above. IMF measurement of fossil fuel industry subsidies. Mind blowing sums to prop up the oil and other industries.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/may/18/fossil-fuel-companies-getting-10m-a-minute-in-subsidies-says-imf
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 04, 2017, 03:10:07 PM
Ford planning big move away from traditional cars. Hybrids and EVs dominating future line ups.
I was surprised when I saw it on the early morning news that they were shifting away from cars and concentrating on SUVs and trucks. I assume that Ford Europe won't be making such a dramatic shift.
Wonder how Trump will feel about the new North American Focus being built in China!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 04, 2017, 03:48:09 PM
Sorry - was going to put this link in above. IMF measurement of fossil fuel industry subsidies. Mind blowing sums to prop up the oil and other industries.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/may/18/fossil-fuel-companies-getting-10m-a-minute-in-subsidies-says-imf


Oil exploration is an expensive business, a company may drill many potential sites in far flung and remote locations at vast expense  before they actually strike oil. Also people think we use oil just for powering vehicles, when oil products are used for a myriad of things, whether it be plastics, tarmac for roads, paint, fertilizer, medicine etc. etc. So just to get things straight, just because we don't need oil for cars does not mean we can stop drilling and refining it, we are so dependent on it for so many things including air travel and ships.

Subsidies for wind power are bad use of good money, as wind adds very little to our grid capacity as it is too variable and makes directly connecting it to the grid almost impossible, it has to be used indirectly via pumped storage or similar and still only produces on average 20% of its installed capacity.

My problem is that EV are directly subsidized , be it via company car tax rates ( and as BMW say, many drivers never plug battery in, just have the car to save tax) direct subsidy by taxpayer of price of EV, and subsidy by other consumers of electrical power, and if local authorities are expected to provide charging points, that will be further subsidy paid for out of council taxes.  Tesla have received a lot of taxpayer money, which is probably why they can offer free charging for their EV, otherwise their business model would be even more shaky than it appears to be.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 04, 2017, 05:04:24 PM
As I am typing this 21.7% of the UK's energy is coming from wind and 20.5 from nuclear. Figures courtesy of
http://gridwatch.co.uk/ (http://gridwatch.co.uk/)
So surely wind deserves every bit as much of a subsidy as nuclear does?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 04, 2017, 05:40:06 PM
As I am typing this 21.7% of the UK's energy is coming from wind and 20.5 from nuclear. Figures courtesy of
http://gridwatch.co.uk/ (http://gridwatch.co.uk/)
So surely wind deserves every bit as much of a subsidy as nuclear does?

The difference is that the nuclear power is reliably available 24/7/365 and is easy to manage,  combined gas power stations (waste of valuable gas that would be more efficiently used in other ways, but that is another matter) are another base load steadfast supply, but react quicker to changing demands than nuclear. Until cheap load levelling mass storage  (salt water batteries or similar) are available both wind and solar will be problematic to people who to balance the grid to ensure reliable supplies to consumers.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 04, 2017, 05:53:56 PM
Looking at yesterdays graph, nuclear and wind power are pretty constant for the full 24 hours, with CCGT taking up the slack. A very interesting site.
(https://i.imgur.com/y8EgaHw.png)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 04, 2017, 05:59:05 PM
Looking at last months average on same site tells a story, wind almost disappeared on some days.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 04, 2017, 06:01:13 PM
Looking at last months average on same site tells a story, wind almost disappeared on some days.
Agreed. But when wind is available it means we don't have to burn oil, so they all have their worth.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 04, 2017, 10:28:08 PM
I agree Jocko. We need a balanced portfolio of energy supplies and renewables can be a major part of that. They have one great advantage over fossil fuels and that is that they will never run out.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 05, 2017, 10:21:26 AM
Everything you read about wind and solar PV power (unless it is from the raving lunatic I love wind at any cost green party manifesto) says that every wind turbine and PV solar panel  needs 100% backup from either coal, gas or nuclear (ie the reliable sources)  because without being able to store energy from those sources to cover windless and cloudy days (more than one day, in other words medium term storage ) they are severely handicapped.  On a lightly clouded day PV solar can be reduced to less than 10% of rated output,  and below about 30mph wind turbine output drops off very rapidly.  Germany has less wind than UK (UK is one of the windier places, most suitable for wind turbines) but to placate the greenies Germany has installed lots of turbines, and they produce over a year about 18 % of their rated (installed) capacity,  UK even with our more steady wind averages a heady 21% of installed capacity actually produced.   I really feel sorry for the people who have the ever more complicated job of integrating renewables without any storage to level output into our grid,  it's like trying to run a business where often on some days most of your workers may not turn up and the ones that do will often be found sleeping at their desk, you would soon be advertising for 'reliable' staff,  and that is when the agency sends around the fossil and nuclear workers,  and boy, would you be glad to employ them (even though some of them smell and others wear a lead overcoat).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 05, 2017, 11:41:14 AM
Gridwatch.co.uk has been updated since yesterday(!) and now has a meter showing % renewables.
http://gridwatch.co.uk/ (http://gridwatch.co.uk/)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest5079 on October 05, 2017, 04:14:26 PM
There is something truly weird about the whole energy industry.
Some years back I had the fortune to go around Dungeness Nuclear Power station. I did have some reservations but apart form the waste problem I cannot see why Nuclear is such a problem with some people. Safety was paramount and when we left we all had to be checked. Well my size 10's didn't go all the way into the measuring machinery and off went the alarm, yes of course there are those that would say it was a gimmick.
Moving on some years and now EDF is building a new nuclear station in Somerset at some incredible subsidy to the French and Chinese.  This must be manna to the ears of the renewable lobby. Recently having had enough of EDF and their eternal price rises I changed my supplier. Supposedly easy but EDF had other ideas.
What makes me smile is that the company I have gone to, claim their supplies come from all renewables. How they work out their costs I know not as the difference in price  tween EDF and them is considerable. This of course makes me a hypocrite as I do despair with the endless wind farms and solar farms despoiling the Cornish countryside. BUT living in an all electric house I need the power.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 05, 2017, 07:01:47 PM
What makes me smile is that the company I have gone to, claim their supplies come from all renewables. How they work out their costs I know not as the difference in price  tween EDF and them is considerable. This of course makes me a hypocrite as I do despair with the endless wind farms and solar farms despoiling the Cornish countryside. BUT living in an all electric house I need the power.

Makes me smile as well, I guess like most houses yours only has one electric cable coming in, and this is fed from main grid, so how can this company supply you with green energy unless they fit a filter to sort out all the electrons that come from non green sources.  It is a bit like changing your water supplier to another one that promises you will only now get water from sustainable renewable sources and it will taste better than your neighbours water, even though you are both supplied from same water main in the street.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 05, 2017, 07:16:44 PM
The company you are paying only buys green electricity, so they are only paying for green electricity. Once it goes into the grid it is all the same. You may even be getting French electricity, if you live in the South East! But at least your money goes towards furthering renewables, even though you could be using "coal electricity".
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 06, 2017, 10:47:45 AM
Yes that's right. Companies buy electricity wholesale and charge you for that. Green tariffs mean that you can be assured none of your money goes to fossil fuel producers but the stuff that comes down the wire is the same for everybody in your area.

Even the big 6 often offer green tariffs undertaking that your dosh goes to renewables. Ecotricity is interesting in terms of gas because they are a producer and are putting gas made from grass, yes grass, into the grid.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest5079 on October 06, 2017, 12:29:07 PM
Thank you gentlemen Yes I know it all comes down the same cable!!!!!!!!!!!! As far as I know the only LOCAL generating outfit is in Plymouth and that is run on gas.
I know not if it is general but here all power is actually 'supplied' by Western Power Distribution who on occasion we have had to contact over problems. We were plagued with power cuts 10 in one day. About 30metres away is a distribution cabinet. Along would come a man and another in separate vehicle and one would done great big gloves and go in and reset the fuse. Well we all got fed up with continuous power cuts and they found a broken cable outside our bungalow. Poor installation. Several cases since.
Western Power have ALWAYS been helpful and polite. When we changed 'supplier' we were told to contact Western Power Supply. That is a hint about the same 'Lectric' going down the line.
Seriously if it wasn't for the National Grid and people like Western Power we would be in a state if we had to rely on people like EDF to actually physically supply the power. AS to Water we have NO choice just pay an awful lot of money to South West Water for lousy water. If you complain  all you get is the water is of drinkable quality!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!2017 and our water is gravity fed from a cistern on a hill far away,which in turn is fed from Meldon reservoir. When they built Meldon there was considerable concern about the arsenic mines that surround the are. This of course was discounted. The joke is between the cistern and Meldon is a whopping great reservoir, no we can't have that it's for Plymouth. that's progress.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 06, 2017, 02:01:42 PM
Interesting article on the news today. Researchers at Rice University, a private research university located on a 295-acre campus in Houston, have found that using carbon derived from bitumen in the making of Lithium batteries allows them to charge 10 to 20 times faster. It also reduces the formation of the deposits that limit the life of the battery.
A battery, built this way, can be charged from zero to full charged in 5 minutes.
Once this is fully developed it brings the prospect of charging your battery in little more than it takes to top up with petrol or diesel.
It does not get round the infrastructure problems, nor the fact that to charge that quickly requires extremely high voltage or current (or both), but these are issues they will overcome in time. It may be that a charging station will be supplied by a high voltage 3 phase supply (as factories are now), which will be used to charge permanent battery or super-capacitor installations. These storage devices will be able to rapidly dump the 100 kW or whatever the car requires, almost instantly. A bit like the way NASCAR teams rapidly fill their cars with fuel. Fill the can with a normal pump, dump it in the car in seconds.
(https://cdn-2.motorsport.com/static/img/mgl/2500000/2550000/2551000/2551400/2551482/s8/nascar-cup-daytona-500-2015-refueling.jpg)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-41523653 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-41523653)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 06, 2017, 05:09:39 PM
Yes that's right. Companies buy electricity wholesale and charge you for that. Green tariffs mean that you can be assured none of your money goes to fossil fuel producers but the stuff that comes down the wire is the same for everybody in your area.

Even the big 6 often offer green tariffs undertaking that your dosh goes to renewables. Ecotricity is interesting in terms of gas because they are a producer and are putting gas made from grass, yes grass, into the grid.

So another case of 'renewables' being propped up by 'reliables' because whether your 'green' power supplier gives money to fossil or nuclear generators the fact is that you are probably reliant on fossil / nuclear for a 24/7/365 supply. On hols in Cornwall today and went past a few windfarms today, including Goonhilly, needless to say (and far too common) non of the turbines rotating.

If these shonky operators are selling green power, then when no green power is available their customers should go without, otherwise they should have to calculate how much 'conventional' electricity they relied on to supply their customers and give that amount to the reliable providers - otherwise it's all smoke and mirrors.

As for making gas from grass, IMHO grass is for cows to eat to make milk and steaks, it is not a good use of arable land to grow grass to supply gas, that way lies madness.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 06, 2017, 05:17:13 PM
Interesting.

I wonder how the charging/range conundrum will pan out over the next few years. The more range the car has, the less the need to charge on the move. I realise that's stating the obvious but it's this current generation of EVs where the issue is critical.

A petrol head who has made the leap to electric cars is Quentin Willson - Top Gear main presenter pre Clarkson - you know - when it was about cars.

His advocacy is based entirely on air quality rather than climate change but he has been pestering Nissan for some time about the provision of uprated batteries for existing cars. Interestingly I've read various accounts on why this can't be done from marketing issues to technical but when he has put them on the spot they have not denied that uprating the battery should, and is, technically possible. Willson make the very valid point that people won't make the switch in the next few years if they think their car will be obsolete as soon as they get it - as he says - 2040 is a long long way in the future - people who change every 3 years might expect to own 7 cars in that time.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 06, 2017, 05:24:16 PM


So another case of 'renewables' being propped up by 'reliables' because whether your 'green' power supplier gives money to fossil or nuclear generators the fact is that you are probably reliant on fossil / nuclear for a 24/7/365 supply. On hols in Cornwall today and went past a few windfarms today, including Goonhilly, needless to say (and far too common) non of the turbines rotating.

If these shonky operators are selling green power, then when no green power is available their customers should go without, otherwise they should have to calculate how much 'conventional' electricity they relied on to supply their customers and give that amount to the reliable providers - otherwise it's all smoke and mirrors.

As for making gas from grass, IMHO grass is for cows to eat to make milk and steaks, it is not a good use of arable land to grow grass to supply gas, that way lies madness.


I think that's wrong on several counts. Your "reliables" are anything but - they will run out and as more marginal sources are mined or extracted the environmental costs will get higher and higher. There is already robust resistance to fracking especially where it is due to take place and that resistance is not from the usual suspects alone. People don't want this stuff.

The gas from grass initiative - launched by Ecotricity - does not involve any arable land, whatsoever, being used. Dale Vince and Ecotricity are applying to build grass mills wherever the fossil fuel industry tries to frack. Marginal grass lands will provide all the gas needed. This is on the assumption that electricity generation becomes wholly carbon neutral in time.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 06, 2017, 05:31:21 PM
Scotland has announced this week that the current ban of fracking will continue indefinitely and that Underground Coal Gasification will also be banned.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest1372 on October 06, 2017, 05:45:33 PM
.... unless they fit a filter to sort out all the electrons that come from non green sources.
I realise you are only poking the wasps nest but it's very easy; we have this with one of our properties - the supplier only buys from renewable sources.  The generation mix is chosen by each supplier quite freely, but there are targets to meet versus levies to pay. 
--
TG
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 06, 2017, 05:48:38 PM
There is enough coal still in the ground to last an awful long time, same with oil and gas,  also USA has enough of the atomic stuff in storage to generate all their electrical power needs for over 700 years, and they have enough left over to nuke north korea many times over.

USA and Canada are nett exporters of oil and gas due to fracking and shale. This has bought OPEC to heel and oil prices have plummeted, Saudi wants to undercut
North American  cost of production by keeping oil flowing at low price.

Unfortunately it is too common a site in UK (one of the windiest and most suitable for wind power in Europe, if not the world) to drive past windfarms where the turbines are playing statues. The only way we can reliably have EV is to build another 20 nuclear power stations,  anything else is just dreaming.

As for making biomethane from grass, it is calculated that over 60% of UK agricultural land would be required, this does not include the land needed to house the digesters and pipelines. The Co2 released converting gas to burnable quality is being ignored by ecotricity as are a lot of other things,  no such thing as a free lunch.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 06, 2017, 05:50:03 PM
There is not a lot of wind or solar energy being generated today. We are buying almost as much from France at the moment.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest1372 on October 06, 2017, 05:53:28 PM
Toshiba claim a new battery composition can give 300km range on a 6 minute charge.
http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2017_10/pr0301.htm

The new battery also offers high energy density and ultra-rapid recharging characteristics, and its titanium niobium oxide anode is much less likely to experience lithium metal deposition during ultra-rapid recharging or recharging in cold conditions—a cause of battery degradation and internal short circuiting.
".... maintains over 90% of its initial capacity after being put through 5,000 charge/discharge cycles, and ultra-rapid recharging can be done in cold conditions, with temperatures as low as minus 10°C, in only ten minutes."

・New battery realizes driving range of electric vehicles boosted to 320km on 6-minute, ultra-rapid recharge, triple that possible with current lithium-ion battery.
・New anode material, titanium niobium oxide achieves double the capacity of the anode of current lithium-ion batteries.

--
TG
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 06, 2017, 06:01:44 PM
Storage solutions are improving exponentially and as it does the market for conventional hydrocarbon powered vehicles, electricity generation and therefore oil production will diminish.
Canada has ditched plans to build two huge pipelines. Lots of reasons given but fundamentally the money men don't want to get lumbered with massive depreciating assets. Canada's oil is not cheap to produce and with the increasing solar, wind and tidal production, oil is fast becoming cheaper, and who wants to buy expensive Canadian oil when Saudi Arabia is giving it way.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 06, 2017, 06:04:55 PM
Five year price of oil.
(http://proxy.markets.businessinsider.com/cst/MarketsInsiderV2/Share/chart.aspx?instruments=300002,5,0,333&style=instrument_double_precision&period=FiveYears&timezone=Eastern%20Standard%20Time)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on October 06, 2017, 07:00:43 PM
There is not a lot of wind or solar energy being generated today. We are buying almost as much from France at the moment.
And that's most likely being generated by nuclear power stations!

I'd like to see some of the small modular reactors being built. They are expected to produce power at significantly lower cost than Hinkley Point C http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/09/09/go-ahead-mini-reactors-energy-crunch-looms/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/09/09/go-ahead-mini-reactors-energy-crunch-looms/).

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 06, 2017, 10:00:20 PM
A brilliant piece on Tidal energy just been posted on Fully Charged.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEQQl-qpkCc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEQQl-qpkCc)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest5079 on October 07, 2017, 11:34:18 AM
One of the first wind farms certainly in Cornwall was built on Laneast Down a few miles from Launceston. I have never seen all turbines working. A few years back a turbine blade fell off fortunately these turbines are quite small and away from the road.
Just up the road alongside the A388 three turbines were erected, they are quite large and very close to the road. It appears they have been erected for a chicken farm but now that they are operational we now have some form of 'eco' holiday village.  I do not like these great turbines close to a road, it makes me feel very vulnerable. It is not just a case of a blade falling off it's the fact that will probably bounce or cartwheel
As to coal, I hope I remember correctly but some years back when the question of energy was becoming a talking point it was written that GB is sitting on 400 yrs of supply. I am just reading a book about the steam locomotive and it's workings and it has shown to me the problems allied to production of steam for powering machinery BUT what has happened to the work on cleaning coal emissions? It seems we are being subjected to the old political correctness. Closing coal power stations prior to end of life buying coal from Australia. What happened to the geo thermic work in west Cornwall?  Even the other night they were talking of the Lizard where the serpentine rock is the result of the earths crust being comparatively thin there. When will it all end? Basically it is all down to money, in my opinion not lack of it but not enough can be made by the greedy few who control everything. No I am not a communist they are just as bad, Whats mine is mine and whats your is mine too!!!!!!!!! I am just a member of joe public at the end of his years who just wants to be warm and fed and secure, all impossible it seems judging by the way the people that control us are carrying on.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 07, 2017, 12:15:20 PM
It might not be fashionable amongst some circles to say it but I think nuclear power will be an essential component for many years to come and we absolutely can't just stop using fossil fuels at the drop of a hat. Long term we need to though both on environmental grounds but also on security of supply.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinS on October 07, 2017, 01:28:07 PM
It might not be fashionable amongst some circles to say it but I think nuclear power will be an essential component for many years to come and we absolutely can't just stop using fossil fuels at the drop of a hat. Long term we need to though both on environmental grounds but also on security of supply.

I began my working career 46 years ago with the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority (UKAEA).  Why the government stopped investing in this area I do not know.  We could have been world leaders in the technology instead of importing from France.  Politics!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 07, 2017, 02:37:54 PM
Just on this "gas from grass" thing. Ecotricity do not plan to use any land currently used as arable land.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/nov/18/could-gas-from-grass-rival-fracking-to-heat-uk-homes

Also, completely agree with Colin. How we have lost our world leader status in nuclear is criminal on the part of all governments. Hinckley -  built by the French Government's energy arm - EDF - and financed by a communist state - China. It's enough to make you weep.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 07, 2017, 10:23:13 PM
Read an interesting article on wind turbines. Usually, when you see them stationary, it is not lack of wind that causes that but too much electricity. Because wind turbines can be shut down readily, the national grid PAYS the operators to shut them down when demand drops. It is known as "Constraint". It is easier to shut down 100 wind turbines than one oil or coal fired station, and certainly a lot easier than shutting down a nuclear power station. The average wind turbine is shut down for 38 days a year for Constraint. The operators are paid around £3M per month to shut them down. The price of going green!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 08, 2017, 11:24:14 AM
Read an interesting article on wind turbines. Usually, when you see them stationary, it is not lack of wind that causes that but too much electricity. Because wind turbines can be shut down readily, the national grid PAYS the operators to shut them down when demand drops. It is known as "Constraint". It is easier to shut down 100 wind turbines than one oil or coal fired station, and certainly a lot easier than shutting down a nuclear power station. The average wind turbine is shut down for 38 days a year for Constraint. The operators are paid around £3M per month to shut them down. The price of going green!

The main problem may be that renewables are so damn unreliable they are an embarrassment and a complication to grid operators,  so when they do generate some power it catches everyone by surprise so it is easier just to not have the power they are offering. The EU has been paying people (including farmers) to do nothing for years, renewables are just an extension of that ethos.

quotes from a couple of articles on renewables.........

As long as you have below 10 percent wind and solar, says Clements Triebel, of the German energy management company Younicos, “nobody notice that you will become any problem at the grid.”

And more than a bit of intermittent power can cause real problems for the grid—worst case, even a blackout. So to keep the grid stable, Germany’s had to slow down the introduction of some new renewable sources. Sometimes,  Triebel says, it even has to shut some wind and solar generators down.
Which, he says, is “a very, very, yeah, stupid situation. But you can imagine if people, knowing more about this situation, they’re running crazy, and they say it’s not what we want.”

While mature economies such as Germany and California have trialed large-scale renewables successfully, these successes weren’t achieved without fossil fuels backing them up. The Energy Information Administration’s Annual Energy Outlook 2017 to 2050 has renewables at only 18-26 percent penetration by 2050. Electric vehicles currently have 1 percent of the market and are projected to have only gained 6 percent by 2040.


Anyone who has any delusions about the place of renewables should read this.....

the opening paragraph says it all really

Humanity is owed a serious investigation of how we have gone so far with the decarbonization project without a serious challenge in terms of engineering reality. – Michael Kelly, Prof. Electrical Engineering, Cambridge

https://www.friendsofscience.org/assets/documents/Renewable-energy-cannot-replace-FF_Lyman.pdf

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 08, 2017, 12:06:30 PM
These are opinions. They may have reasoning behind them but they ARE opinions. There are plenty of opinions saying the exact opposite.

Fossil Fuels will run out. What then?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 08, 2017, 12:08:26 PM
I'm not saying we can do away with fossil fuels, and for every article, paper and argument for them there is an equal and opposite article, paper or argument against. I am not against fossil fuel use, though I am very much against the building of more nuclear energy plants (especially if France and China have a hand in it). In a future confrontation China could melt down our nuclear power plants via a software back door. I'm sure Trump wishes he could do that in NK.
Our energy sources are a national defence and as such only the UK should have control of them.
What I am saying is with the improvements in technology that man is developing we should make use of them, and these include solar power generation and energy storage.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 08, 2017, 12:14:12 PM
Pretty much my take on things Jocko.

I mentioned opinions above. Here are some opinions refuting the opinions quoted by Culzean above.

http://www.greenpeace.org/international/en/campaigns/climate-change/energyrevolution/renewable-energy-myths/

Of course it's Greenpeace and they have an axe to grind but so do many proponents of fossil fuels. The poster boy for the anti green lobby is Matt Ridley. Turns out he had an open cast coalmine on his land and has investments in a company making fracking equipment.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 08, 2017, 12:16:29 PM
These are opinions. They may have reasoning behind them but they ARE opinions. There are plenty of opinions saying the exact opposite.

Fossil Fuels will run out. What then?

This reply came pretty quickly but it takes a while to read a 44 page article properly, they are more than opinions, they are reality at the moment.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 08, 2017, 01:48:31 PM
Pretty much my take on things Jocko.

I mentioned opinions above. Here are some opinions refuting the opinions quoted by Culzean above.

http://www.greenpeace.org/international/en/campaigns/climate-change/energyrevolution/renewable-energy-myths/

Of course it's Greenpeace and they have an axe to grind but so do many proponents of fossil fuels. The poster boy for the anti green lobby is Matt Ridley. Turns out he had an open cast coalmine on his land and has investments in a company making fracking equipment.

They keep banging on about 'smart grids' and stuff,  even the smartest computer cannot draw power from a source that is not making any.  That is what the Cambridge Professor in my link meant,  when he said what he did about engineering reality.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 08, 2017, 03:16:05 PM
I think the elephant in the room here is whether or not you believe in man made climate change. I do. For this reason I support the development of renewable energy sources and also nuclear power as well. When you are on a particular side of this debate a thing called confirmation bias kicks in. I'm probably guilty of this as much as the next person.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 08, 2017, 03:22:26 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friends_of_Science

These people are funded by the fossil fuel industry. Confirmation bias. Not to be trusted IMO but then not everybody trusts the other side.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest5079 on October 08, 2017, 04:20:54 PM
Which ever side of the fence you come down on there is one problem which  I do not know if it has been fixed.
When I was a village bobby we had every so often to test the alarms in our offices. These gave us warning of a nuclear attack.  The signal was transmitted along telephone lines. Numerous bobbies far cleverer than I asked the question If there is a nuclear attack what happens to the phone lines? Usual answer don't ask stupid questions.
I can remember when  the western world laughed at the Russians because they the Russians still had old technology in their aircraft etc. Then someone woke up to the pulse that comes after a nuclear explosion which would destroy ALL  computers etc.
Now everything we use depend on and need is run by computers but I have never found out if the 'Pulse' problem has ever been resolved. Moving on the modern times, if NK gets it's way all the wind power solar panels power stations won't be  worth diddly squat. I don't think the public were ever shown the effect of a nuclear blast on the infrastructure, people etc as it was  decided to be too frightening. The world is getting to be a very fragile place because man wants to be top dog over his fellow man. We are fortunate in the West as we have much BUT for how long? It is always a case of the grass is greener and the hordes are looking at our perfect life. Yes we need energy but why can't the experts wake up and stop arguing about who is right over how we  produce the energy we need .Perhaps the EV is the answer BUT I understand the production of electricity is very inefficient so perhaps we should concentrate on making the production more efficient and less wasteful.  Just to really throw a spanner in the works. There are those that condemn Nuclear power and then spend thousands to get to lay on a beach soaking up  sunlight.  Miserable git aint I.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 08, 2017, 05:35:45 PM
The EMP from a nuclear blast is still a problem but has a very limited range from a ground detonated explosion (the NK tests have no effect other than in the detonation area). The problem lies with high altitude detonations, where a large area south of the detonation position would be affected. Lots of the effects are temporary. Modern electronics, particularly military equipment, are not as susceptible as the early solid state equipment.
I too believe that man made climate change is affecting the world. I watched a scientist, on the news today, talking about how climate change is causing the sea temperatures to rise, which lead to greater evaporation, which in turn create bigger and stronger storms. And this year's hurricane season is testament to that.
On a totally different tack, Australia is looking at changing the law so that it will not be an offence for a drunk driver to be in charge of an autonomous vehicle. It will be considered like being in a taxi. Other governments are looking at similar changes. I would imagine this will only pertain to Level 4 and 5 vehicles, not the driver's aids we have at present.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinS on October 08, 2017, 07:34:24 PM
Why are we talking about a nuclear blast within the context of power generation?  It is physically impossible for a power station to undergo a nuclear explosion.  Such could only occur if fissile material were forced to a critical mass within a minute period of time.  Not possible in a nuclear reactor.

The worry would be a conventional detonation causing fissile material to be released into the atmosphere, but this is a totally new topic.  Lets not go there.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 08, 2017, 08:01:39 PM
We are not talking about a blast in a nuclear power station. We are discussing the effect of a nuclear weapon being detonated, and its effect on the grid, or at least, that was my belief.
"Countryfile", this evening, had some interesting stuff on power generation, fracking, and solar energy storage.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 09, 2017, 07:07:01 AM
Just re-watched the section of "Countryfile" where they looked at solar energy. They said that farmers tend to be early adopters of technology, if it will save them a bob or two, and solar was one such technology. The farm they visited was self sufficient for energy having a large solar array and storage. The presenter asked, "are these the batteries". and it was pointed out that batteries were a dirty word and they were "energy storage machines". There were about 3 or 4 container sized units. They went to great length to point out that the area used for the solar arrays was not wasted, as it was also used to graze sheep. They were selling excess energy, surplus to their own requirements, to the grid.
The point of the piece was to show that those that could make use of large arrays (farmers, warehouse companies, supermarkets and such), were adopting solar, and that was freeing up electricity for the charging of EVs. However, as often stated here, how the infrastructure will be adapted to accommodate charging was not discussed.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest5079 on October 09, 2017, 08:46:22 AM
I fully intended to apologise for my outburst, it was a very bad 'BLACK DOG' day.
How ever it seems as always Jazzers have taken it in their stride. Yes I was talking about a Nuclear conflagration. Nuclear power stations would of course be affected but then that would be the least of our worries. It is not only NK that is worrying. BUT of course we are talking here about EV and the where withal to have enough capacity to power them. So I apologise for straying so far off subject.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 09, 2017, 10:15:27 AM
In UK we probably have more 'land owners' than farmers,  because growing crops, milk and animals is a very, very low margin business and people who own land can get subsidies for 'setting aside' (ie doing nothing with the land except grow flowers that are considered weeds on farmland, but are not part of human food chain) they can get subsidies for solar and wind infrastructure on their land, along with generous feed in tariffs so why wouldn't they do it ?  The average age of a UK farmer is over 60,  so pretty soon we will not have any farmers as such - just people to go around cleaning solar panels and collecting dead birds and bats from under wind turbines.

We grow less than 50% of the food we consume in UK,  most of the imported stuff no doubt arrives in smelly ships burning diesel or thick black sulphurous bunker oil, or on planes burning kerosene, we have outsourced our farming  in the same way we outsourced our industry, which means we can claim to be 'greener'  because all those nasty smelly things now take place on other peoples land (lamb from New Zealand, apples from South Africa or Chile or New Zealand,  milk from heaven knows where),  while we install solar panels and wind turbines - tokenism at its finest.

here is a quote from former director of Greenpeace.......

Notable Quote
•   I had no idea that after I left they would evolve into a band of scientific illiterates…. Clearly, my former Greenpeace colleagues are either not reading the morning paper or simply don’t care about the truth.
John Passacantando

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 09, 2017, 10:18:34 AM
Notable Quote
•   I had no idea that after I left they would evolve into a band of scientific illiterates…. Clearly, my former Greenpeace colleagues are either not reading the morning paper or simply don’t care about the truth.
John Passacantando

What's that got to do with the price of fish?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 09, 2017, 10:34:07 AM
Culzean has a point about the way we have outsourced so much agricultural production. There is a huge amount to be said for more localism.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 09, 2017, 11:40:35 AM
It is over 100 years since Britain has been able to grow our own food. The population is just too large. Add to that the fact we can import food cheaper and it is understandable why we import so much. Britain has priced herself out of the market in many cases. We, the buying public, want to buy goods cheaply, the supermarkets want to sell to us, and if rubbish Granny Smiths are cheaper from Bulgaria than here (never mind what they taste like), they will buy them and we will be stuck with them. (Mind you, Granny Smiths originally came from Australia!)
It is the same with holidays. I often go away for a long weekend, somewhere in the UK, and I could have 10 days in the sun for a similar price (well I could before the £ fell).
As for the average age of farmers. The average age of the UK population is over 40 now and getting older. There are plenty young farmers, just their fathers are still living and owning the farms. We are not going to run out of farmers.
As an aside, the Scottish government is stepping in to buy up butter, to protect commercial bakers and the like. The reason there is a butter shortage is because farmers are shying away from milk production. And the reason for that is the fact the supermarkets have depressed the price of milk so low, farmers cannot make a living from producing it.
No one can blame a farmer for turning his land over for solar and wind turbines. They need to make a living and a return on their investment (the land) so if farming, per se, doesn't pay, then why not energy production.
It all stems from government policy since before the Great War.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 09, 2017, 12:59:21 PM
Notable Quote
•   I had no idea that after I left they would evolve into a band of scientific illiterates…. Clearly, my former Greenpeace colleagues are either not reading the morning paper or simply don’t care about the truth.
John Passacantando

What's that got to do with the price of fish?

Pretty much my take on things Jocko.

I mentioned opinions above. Here are some opinions refuting the opinions quoted by Culzean above.

http://www.greenpeace.org/international/en/campaigns/climate-change/energyrevolution/renewable-energy-myths/

Of course it's Greenpeace and they have an axe to grind but so do many proponents of fossil fuels. The poster boy for the anti green lobby is Matt Ridley. Turns out he had an open cast coalmine on his land and has investments in a company making fracking equipment.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 09, 2017, 01:17:57 PM
As for the average age of farmers. The average age of the UK population is over 40 now and getting older. There are plenty young farmers, just their fathers are still living and owning the farms. We are not going to run out of farmers.

Quote from a Guardian article below in italics......
(we all know that teachers are the last people on earth qualified to give careers advice to children as many of them have never really left the school environment and ventured into the real world). Many older farmers are unable to leave farming due to the shaky position of their finances, especially if they do not own the land they farm.

"Many of those who guide school children in their choice of career are unaware of the challenges and opportunities that agriculture offers – not only to those who are practical and interested in technology and engineering, but to science students interested in animal and plant breeding, nutrition, and soil management.

A report by the Royal Agricultural Society of England used the often-quoted statistic that the average age of a British farmer is 59 to predict a pressing requirement for 60,000 new farmers to replace those who will shortly leave the industry. Figures from Eurostat and CEJA, the European Council of Young Farmers, point out that the percentage of farmers under 35 in the UK has fallen from 16% in 1990 to 2.8% in 2016. It is clear that a steady supply of able, young entrants is needed to meet the challenges mentioned above."
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 09, 2017, 01:53:06 PM
A report by the Royal Agricultural Society of England used the often-quoted statistic[/i]
I am very sceptical of statistics. I know how lobby groups can manipulate them and the old adage, "Lies, damned lies, and statistics", attributed to Benjamin Disraeli springs to mind.
I don't know, and I believe you don't know either, whether their definition of a farmer is the dictionary definition of "a farmer" as someone who owns or takes care of a farm, or someone who has studied and trained in farming. If it is the first instance, then there will be very few young men who own farms or even manage them, however, the second definition covers a far greater field (no pun intended).
Much though I hate quoting The Guardian for anything, according to this article
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2016/mar/31/agriculture-uk-fastest-growing-subject-career-student-farmers (https://www.theguardian.com/education/2016/mar/31/agriculture-uk-fastest-growing-subject-career-student-farmers)
agriculture is the fastest growing subject at universities in the UK.
As I say, for every person/group/lobbyist saying black, there is another person/group/lobbyist saying white.
We all have our opinions, right or wrong.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 09, 2017, 01:56:11 PM
One thing I'd like to clarify. Is this the five minute argument or the ten minute argument?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 09, 2017, 06:11:03 PM
I see that the BBC has cottoned on to the fact that the Scottish government announced, last week, that plans were soon to be announced for the "electrification" of the A9, with areas with charging points being installed, making it Scotland's first "electric highway".
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 09, 2017, 07:56:45 PM
That will be a big step forward Jocko. The A roads need chargers especially these longer stretches in the countryside.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 09, 2017, 09:14:22 PM
Lots of highland roads have big lay-bys so you can stop and picnic or make a toilet stop. They intend building more and then putting chargers in them all. They will stretch all the way to Scrabster, which has a ferry terminal for the Orkneys.
There are quite a lot of charging stations on the A9 already, or at least in the towns just off the A9, but putting more on the road itself will be a big help for visitors.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on October 10, 2017, 09:40:53 AM
I went past a sign for a Tesla supercharger on Sunday, never seen one of those before.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest1372 on October 10, 2017, 03:16:40 PM
Thought there was a Tesla S in my London parking structure yesterday, sadly on closer inspection it was just a Maserati.
--
TG
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 11, 2017, 12:08:05 PM
Couple of quotes on Artificial intelligence (the stuff that autonomous cars need )

"Success in creating AI would be the greatest event in human history. Unfortunately it may be the last...”
Stephen Hawking

“I don’t understand why some people are not concerned.”
Bill Gates

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 11, 2017, 02:35:46 PM
Quite true. When AI overtakes humans in every aspect, we are "all doomed". Doesn't stop AI being better at driving than us though. That shouldn't be difficult!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 11, 2017, 07:50:44 PM
I think the warnings about AI are worth paying attention to. We are going to end up like vegetables - unable to do anything - it's a major deskilling. I'm no boy racer - never have been - but driving a car to the best of your ability can be satisfying.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 11, 2017, 08:19:16 PM
I spent a large portion of working life installing and programming automation in car factories, one of the operators who was being made redundant by robots put his finger on it.  He just said "you do realise a robot is never going to buy a car".   Or buy anything else for that matter - we are sleepwalking into an era (or should that be error ?) where more and more of the technology that controls our lives is made and owned by fewer and fewer people and large corporations,  from agriculture (GMO with seeds that don't grow next year) to internet and phones,  and soon it will be cars.   Many experts predict (the law of unintended consequences) that autonomous vehicles will increase traffic because empty cars will join the traffic flow and when people no longer have to drive they will find jobs further from  where they live and work in the car (unless they are having to share the ride with others).

And soon as peteo48 says,  we will all be mindless, de-skilled humans with very little to do (it's all done for you) and 'the devil makes work for idle hands'.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on October 12, 2017, 11:04:06 AM
one of the operators who was being made redundant by robots put his finger on it.  He just said "you do realise a robot is never going to buy a car".

My kids are at an age where they have to make a choice as to what career path to follow. I am gently trying to steer them towards careers which are less likely to face oblivion. Eldest wants to be a vet, which is not so bad, youngest has a scientific/technical bent but does not know what he wants to do.

The biggest problem facing future generations is where the money is for these goods and services comes from, when nobody else has a job to pay for them. The Government already preserves millions of jobs that pay less than it cost to live, the current trend to reduce state dependency will fail.

The only answer I can see on the horizon at the moment is a citizen's income.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 12, 2017, 11:20:06 AM
one of the operators who was being made redundant by robots put his finger on it.  He just said "you do realise a robot is never going to buy a car".

My kids are at an age where they have to make a choice as to what career path to follow. I am gently trying to steer them towards careers which are less likely to face oblivion. Eldest wants to be a vet, which is not so bad, youngest has a scientific/technical bent but does not know what he wants to do.

The biggest problem facing future generations is where the money is for these goods and services comes from, when nobody else has a job to pay for them. The Government already preserves millions of jobs that pay less than it cost to live, the current trend to reduce state dependency will fail.

The only answer I can see on the horizon at the moment is a citizen's income.

Which begs the question, where is the money for a citizens income coming from ?

Many people now are on zero hours contracts with minimum wage - this is mainly due to loss of 'proper' (manufacturing) jobs, due to either loss of companies or automation of existing ones.  Just look at voracious Uber,  wants to run a profitable business and pay no tax but will not acknowledge that its 'drivers' (soon to be redundant as well due to Uber driverless cars - ha, ha) are actually employees of the company and should get sick pay, paid holidays and NI contributions paid.  What we have is companies like Uber and Amazon paying no tax, paying lowest wages they can and their 'employees' (zero hours contractors) wages are being topped up by other taxpayers through tax credits, income support etc.

Vets seem to do well,  but I think it is mainly 'small animal' (ie pets) vets,  due to booming pet insurance business the fees that vets can charge has gone through the roof ...... when I look at what vets charge now compared with what they charged when we last had a pet (adjusted for inflation) it is horrendous,  and the number of procedures offered for pets has also multiplied (nose and boob jobs etc LOL).

We are rapidly developing into a 'service industry' world,  full of personal shoppers, personal trainers, financial advisors etc. - with economy dependent on people spending money they haven't got buying goods they don't really need (mainly imported) and house building (many materials also imported). 

Widespread use of AI will only make things worse...................
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 12, 2017, 05:18:42 PM

We are rapidly developing into a 'service industry' world,  full of personal shoppers, personal trainers, financial advisors etc. - with economy dependent on people spending money they haven't got buying goods they don't really need (mainly imported) and house building (many materials also imported). 

Widespread use of AI will only make things worse...................

I guess the issue, in future years, will be how many jobs will be lost to AI - some people think we are only at the start of where it could go. In that scenario, how do you distribute wealth?

(I don't know the answer btw)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest5079 on October 13, 2017, 09:52:04 AM
Until you condition Homo Sapien to stop being greedy, wealth will never be distributed fairly. We have the Indian sub continent, extremely wealthy but still millions of people who live under the starvation line. Girls are still being killed at birth because they bring no wealth. China buying up the world and yet still working on the elite few being in control and if I wrote this in China the light of day would never be seen again.
Man is beset by all sorts of ailments because the human skeleton in thousands of years has never adapted to walking upright. Yes surgeons can help people to walk after horrendous spinal injuries but it must be like lugging a great box around with you. Yes I know it is. I have seen brains and spinal cords after they have been removed from the body and the awesome part is how small they are in comparison to what they do. I feel it will be a very long time before man can duplicate these two organs.
AI might progress to a point BUT it is unlikely in the foreseeable future that the human brain will be superseded. Unfortunately the problem arises because not every one can be a boffin. However, outside my home, not directly outside as I clear my bit of path and gutter but we have shrubs, yes shrubs growing out of the gutter. Every so often along comes a road sweeping machine which merely skates over the top. A man with a shovel and broom is inconceivable in this day and age but he would have not allowed the shrub to grow in the first place. These shrubs have already damaged the road surface so what price progress.  Perhaps we should be learning to walk before we try and run. After all EV's need electricity, our generating capacity is on it's knees according to a report today so do we have a chicken and egg scenario?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest6630 on October 13, 2017, 10:06:28 AM
Gulp! Future is looking pretty bleak, i think I'll hang myself now.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 13, 2017, 10:23:14 AM
We will connect bicycles up to generators and we can all earn our living by pedalling like fury to keep the elite driving their Lucid Airs and Teslas. Problem solved.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest4871 on October 13, 2017, 10:43:03 AM
The elephant in the room is that the world's population has increased from 1 billion to 7 billion in 200 years and will increase to 15 billion in another 100 years.

Levels of material consumption (and thus pollution waste) have increased by many multiples of that.

The UK population has increased 50% since WW2.

Some (most) African countries populations have increased (exponentially) 3 times in 40 years.

Marx had an answer to income distribution.

You can be assured the investors in AI (which, like electric cars, is by no means new) will only do it for the money.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JohnAlways on October 13, 2017, 11:36:11 AM
And I see we will no longer be able to have Gas at home (2050) to meet emissions rules!

Using gas for heating and cooking should be banned by 2050, the Government said yesterday. (Daily Mail) I know but it's in print.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 13, 2017, 01:12:11 PM
The elephant in the room is that the world's population has increased from 1 billion to 7 billion in 200 years and will increase to 15 billion in another 100 years.

Levels of material consumption (and thus pollution waste) have increased by many multiples of that.

The UK population has increased 50% since WW2.

Some (most) African countries populations have increased (exponentially) 3 times in 40 years.

Marx had an answer to income distribution.

You can be assured the investors in AI (which, like electric cars, is by no means new) will only do it for the money.

I have always said that over population will destroy the planet long before CO2 / climate change / global warming or whatever it is called these days.  The problem for me is that although global leaders are happy enough to bang on about CO2 etc, (mainly because carbon is taxable) they go a bit quiet about controlling population which is undoubtedly the cause of land degradation, loss of habitat for wild animals,  poverty, famine and drought (caused by deforestation and overgrazing of habitat by domesticated animals - cows, goats etc.)

China has been roundly criticised for imposing a single child policy in the 60's, but their decision was very far sighted in the light of present day world population, but common-sense things that are easy for a dictatorship to do are hard to do in democracies with their pressure groups and lobbyists.

I will take climate change debate seriously when it includes measures to reduce world population growth,  until they we are just tinkering around the edges, and certain people are making lots of money from climate change scare tactics.

Bio-fuel are responsible for the loss off many thousands of square miles of rainforest, and growing corn and sugar cane to make vehicle fuel suggests to me that the inmates have finally taken over the asylum.

EV's wont save the planet but birth control just might.

I find it very ironic that as population explodes, computers and AI are destroying jobs,  a real double whammy.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 13, 2017, 01:22:25 PM
And I see we will no longer be able to have Gas at home (2050) to meet emissions rules!

Using gas for heating and cooking should be banned by 2050, the Government said yesterday. (Daily Mail) I know but it's in print.



Gas burnt in a domestic heating boiler is now over 90% efficient,  if you burn the same gas in a power station and use the electricity to heat the same home the efficiency drops to about 50% - what a waste of precious gas.  Unfortunately the same bureaucrats that convinced everyone that diesel and 100watt kettles would save the planet are still running the show, and still just as capable of making stupid decisions.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 13, 2017, 02:27:04 PM
Gulp! Future is looking pretty bleak, i think I'll hang myself now.

Don't forget to use low carbon rope made using local labour from a 'fairtrade' sustainable environmentally friendly source, transported to UK on a low pollution sailing vessel (feel free to add any buzz words I have forgotten)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest4871 on October 13, 2017, 02:50:00 PM
And I see we will no longer be able to have Gas at home (2050) to meet emissions rules!

Using gas for heating and cooking should be banned by 2050, the Government said yesterday. (Daily Mail) I know but it's in print.



Gas burnt in a domestic heating boiler is now over 90% efficient,  if you burn the same gas in a power station and use the electricity to heat the same home the efficiency drops to about 50% - what a waste of precious gas.  Unfortunately the same bureaucrats that convinced everyone that diesel and 100watt kettles would save the planet are still running the show, and still just as capable of making stupid decisions.

Note "should".

If a kettle (or vacuum cleaner) needs so much power to complete a given quantity of work, doesn't a lower wattage appliance take commensurately longer to complete the task, thus no energy saving - like with low energy lamp bulbs, you need more central heating to heat a house to a given temperature? (And what is energy saving with central heating, when once upon a time the world lived happily (even gratefully) with one fire and thicker clothes).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 13, 2017, 03:24:02 PM

Note "should".

If a kettle (or vacuum cleaner) needs so much power to complete a given quantity of work, doesn't a lower wattage appliance take commensurately longer to complete the task, thus no energy saving - like with low energy lamp bulbs, you need more central heating to heat a house to a given temperature? (And what is energy saving with central heating, when once upon a time the world lived happily (even gratefully) with one fire and thicker clothes).

What you say is true, the total amount of energy required to raise the temperature of say 1 litre of water from 10degC to 100degC is the same whatever the wattage of the kettle (except if wattage is too low the heat is escaping faster than it is being added and water will never boil),  but in order to reduce the peak  load on our sagging (read renewables) electrical supply they think it is OK to take 10 minutes instead of 2 to boil, - in fact numpties that they are they have probably convinced themselves that it is saving energy.   The latest EU initiative is to introduce low temperature teabags by 2021.

Yeah, I agree about replacing heat that used to be given out by domestic filament bulbs (lights that are mainly used in the winter) with extra gas used by central heating,  The  heat emitted from filament bulbs is only a problem when they are outdoors, where heat is entirely wasted, and the light from a filament bulb is much nicer and more mellow than LED output,  and as for compact flourescent bulbs, they were hopeless, did not have a long life and very polluting to make.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 13, 2017, 03:29:19 PM
I agree with Culzean about population growth and I don't know why some people never mention it in the mix of policies that are needed to enable us to survive on the planet. Regardless of your take on Climate Change there is a resource and space issue at the very least.

On the low carbon rope, I read somewhere that you can now buy compostable jeans!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 13, 2017, 04:12:59 PM
My jeans are compostable, especially just before they go in the wash!

The only way to reduce the world's population, unless you go for draconian measures such as compulsory sterilisation or limiting family size (as China tried), is to make contraceptives freely and readily available to all. Most counties that are contributing to the rise in population are poor, and with little access to contraception for all. Most people would happily have smaller families, it is just that they don't have a lot of choice.
The population of the UK is growing, but mainly from immigration rather than by births. There are about 100.000 more births than deaths in the UK each year yet migration increased the population by 273,000 (2015/16).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on October 13, 2017, 07:08:55 PM
Which begs the question, where is the money for a citizens income coming from ?

Well, it's not going to come from taxing working people, because there won't be many of those left.

Most people think this is all in the future, but we are already well along this road. There are millions of jobs which can be done by machine now, and only exist due to subsidy of below subsistence wages. Sooner or later, even these low wages, and the other costs of employment, will exceed the cost of the technology to replace them.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 13, 2017, 07:33:03 PM
If citizens don't have a wage, who will buy the stuff the AI makes? If they cannot sell, how do they buy raw materials? Perhaps everything will be self levelling. Maybe governments will have to tax industry at a high enough rate that they will then be able to give a wage to citizens. All I can say is, I am glad I won't be around long enough to find out.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on October 13, 2017, 11:59:57 PM
All I can say is, I am glad I won't be around long enough to find out.

You never know Jocko, it might come sooner than you think.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 14, 2017, 08:51:21 AM
Love him or hate him, Jeremy Corbyn has just announced some innovative ideas.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41614820 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41614820)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 14, 2017, 09:34:37 AM
Love him or hate him, Jeremy Corbyn has just announced some innovative ideas.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41614820 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41614820)

He is right to criticise Amazon, Uber Yodel, Deliveroo and such companies as we have had parcels delivered after 8pm by very disgruntled and harrassed looking drivers. As for who owns and controls robots it is normally the person who pays the bills that owns and controls something,  but in Corbynworld, who knows. 

A company I was tech manager for used to manufacture semi-automated and fully automated battery assembly lines,  we sold machines to China and you would have thought that with their excess of labour they would want the manual and semi-auto kit,  but no,  they went for the fully auto equipment,  mainly I feel to get their hands on up to date stuff to copy but  they never made anyone redundant at the Peoples #32 battery factory,  the workers took it in turns to press the start button each day and then went back to their tea drinking.  As their labour costs rose they would have to make people redundant.  I feel that Corbyn has such a communist / socialist mindset to have the robots and not sack anyone - and micro-manage industry from his political chair - the poor guy has no concept of how business works (like most of our politicians sadly,  who are either trained as lawyers or accountants).  The people who take the risks / foot the bills say what happens, not some wooly headed politician.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest5079 on October 14, 2017, 12:16:42 PM
Quite some while ago when I had a functioning brain, I tried to better myself with a degree. My first year was dealing with Technology in the form of power generation, people and such allied bits. One thing we did was an experiment on heat. Put one person in a room at a certain temperature, then increase the number of people and the temperature would rise.  So perhaps the thicker jumper is not such a bad idea IF it saves X amount of energy.  It was there and I know things have improved it was stated that production of electricity was not really cost effective. Forgive my memory but I seem to think it was worked out on a ton of coal or X number of cu ft of gas and what came out was something like 30% of input. I am pretty sure those figures are now out of date. However once you had the electricity it was cheaper to move it around the country.
zzaj   questions  this stupid EU rule about lower wattage kettles etc. I have forgotten the formula but if you use less power you need a greater quantity to achieve the end aim.
As to contraceptives to the masses, surely it is not the availability of  contraceptives that is the problem it is the 'need' to produce a son and the more children you have is wealth. Education is what they need and perhaps that nice Mr Blair should have gone out to Africa and the Indian sub continent and banged the drum there. I am purposely not incurring some racial discrimination act by not actually mentioning those people who live on that sub continent that killed and maimed many of our very brave military. YET they
still come here and plague us for housing, money etc. Work you must be joking and to really stuff myself, Nepal, sent their young men to fight for us and all we have done is drop fertilizer from a great height BUT we can give Bangladeshi's money and a hole in the wall card to be used in their own country. Perhaps IF we woke up and used some of the money here to update our electricity production our EV's will be a thing of fact.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on October 14, 2017, 05:03:15 PM
Love him or hate him, Jeremy Corbyn has just announced some innovative ideas.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41614820 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41614820)

Somebody needs to start thinking differently.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on October 14, 2017, 05:18:42 PM
"Let workers control robots" Says Corbyn.

A way to ensure no-one invests in robots in UK..

Robots do jobs better than workers - not all jobs but some.

Moronic is a kind word to describe that policy.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on October 14, 2017, 09:17:14 PM
It was there and I know things have improved it was stated that production of electricity was not really cost effective. Forgive my memory but I seem to think it was worked out on a ton of coal or X number of cu ft of gas and what came out was something like 30% of input. I am pretty sure those figures are now out of date. However once you had the electricity it was cheaper to move it around the country.
Perhaps domestic CHP (combined heat and power) will get back on the agenda as an efficient way to use fossil fuels (or possibly wood via gasification) as the process both generates electricity and then provides heating with the waste heat. I believe that trials held a few years ago revealed serious reliability issues. Urban CHP is also implementable using small power stations and a network of hot water pipes (which will involve digging up the roads).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest5079 on October 15, 2017, 09:33:37 AM
Thank you John Ratsey for reminding me about CHP it featured very much in my 'studies'. Now, I cannot rely on my memory enough to be certain but somewhere, recently I either read or heard that a power station had been taken off line affecting x number of homes who were on a CHP system.
If that ain't madness what is?
CHP is used on the continent and I believe the USA and yet good old Blighty  has sailed on regardless.
Just remembered something. New Tricks episode involving Battersea Power Station. Good old Brian trotting out his facts and figures. Battersea was state of the art,  had emission controls and supplied heat and power to the surrounding area. Of course it burnt coal so it had to  go.
Hopefully one of you brighter ones will put me right if I have the wrong end of the stick.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 16, 2017, 08:08:16 AM
To get back to the original thread, this is a brilliant little Smart Charging device shown on "Fully Charged" this week. The Zappi charger, which can be set up to ONLY use your green, free, energy.
How the CT knows which direction the current is flowing in the meter tails is beyond me, unless it is monitoring the DC component, before the inverter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EtegQfZQRw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EtegQfZQRw)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 16, 2017, 08:17:12 AM
I think I have found the answer to my CT problem. By measuring whether the current leads or lags the voltage will show what direction the POWER is flowing.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on October 18, 2017, 03:41:22 PM
Today is windless and sunless. Guess what? Wind and solar  energy input to the Grid is minimal less than 10%.
http://gridwatch.co.uk/
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 18, 2017, 05:03:33 PM
I saw that this morning. Pretty dismal for green energy.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 19, 2017, 08:45:07 AM
To get back to the original thread, this is a brilliant little Smart Charging device shown on "Fully Charged" this week. The Zappi charger, which can be set up to ONLY use your green, free, energy.
How the CT knows which direction the current is flowing in the meter tails is beyond me, unless it is monitoring the DC component, before the inverter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EtegQfZQRw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EtegQfZQRw)

Robert Llewellyn must be accumulating an expensive collection of battery and renewable stuff at his country pile, I bet all of it is FOC if he agrees to do a favourable program.   For me it is ironic that Llewellyn went from 'scrap heap challenge' to being the doyen of the renewables / EV community.   Most presenters (and I include petrol head Clarkson in this) will swap sides if they can keep their cushy lifestyle and celebrity status,  they sniff out any opportunity to pick up the latest fashion and get a comfy seat on the bandwagon.

Anyone relying on solar today will eat a cold dinner in the dark, clouds are touching the ground by us. A bit of wind (but that can happen when you eat uncooked food LOL).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 19, 2017, 09:03:29 AM
I bet all of it is FOC if he agrees to do a favourable program.   For me it is ironic that Llewellyn went from 'scrap heap challenge' to being the doyen of the renewables / EV community.
He makes it quite clear on a number of the videos that everything he has installed he has paid for and that he does not take FOC stuff from the various places he visits. I know his Tesla is leased and his Leaf he has had for years.
Regarding Scrapheap Challenge, I suppose that is the ultimate in green recycling, so no conflict there.
Sorry your weather is so miserable today. We have a gorgeous, dry, warm, sunny, morning here despite the fact the sun doesn't rise until almost 8 am this time of the year.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest5079 on October 20, 2017, 09:26:07 AM
A friend who sends me 'Funnies' sent this:

Headlines from 2030

'OZONE created by EV's now killing millions'

I sincerely hope this will not generate another 25 pages.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 20, 2017, 09:56:54 AM
It was on the news a week ago that the hole in the ozone layer could take 30 years longer to repair, than expected, because of chlorine containing chemicals. Used in Paint stripper and PCB manufacture (among other things), these chemicals are mainly produced, unregulated, in China.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-41585552 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-41585552)

On a brighter note, This little lot, courtesy of Bosch, on latest episode of "Fully Charged".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4k5TDZ6irG4&t=804s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4k5TDZ6irG4&t=804s)

I'd love one of the scooters!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on October 20, 2017, 10:38:07 AM
I thought the Bosch mower on FC looked quite funky, until I looked the price up online.  :o
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 20, 2017, 11:13:03 AM
A friend who sends me 'Funnies' sent this:

Headlines from 2030

'OZONE created by EV's now killing millions'

I sincerely hope this will not generate another 25 pages.

No-one could argue with the headline that 'humans are destroying the only habitable planet in the known universe with their selfishness, greed and runaway overpopulation'.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 20, 2017, 11:14:47 AM
The stuff on show were all made by 3rd parties. Only the components are manufactured by Bosch.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 20, 2017, 11:35:19 AM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/24/exclusive-green-energy-tycoon-eye-storm-electric-car-charging/

The article says it costs about £50K to install and maintain one charging point,  did anyone think prices would not rise. 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 20, 2017, 12:09:21 PM
Of course they quote a cost like that. They are trying to justify fleecing the motoring public. Image Shell putting their petrol up to £5/Litre then saying the rise was due to the cost of installing and maintaining a petrol pump and quoting £50K instead of the £7K it actually costs. You'd laugh your socks off and go elsewhere.
This story is about a man, who is not satisfied with his £100 million fortune and wants to make more by taking it out of our pockets. Typical of all big businessmen, worldwide.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 20, 2017, 06:52:59 PM
Of course they quote a cost like that. They are trying to justify fleecing the motoring public. Image Shell putting their petrol up to £5/Litre then saying the rise was due to the cost of installing and maintaining a petrol pump and quoting £50K instead of the £7K it actually costs. You'd laugh your socks off and go elsewhere.
This story is about a man, who is not satisfied with his £100 million fortune and wants to make more by taking it out of our pockets. Typical of all big businessmen, worldwide.

I have seen figures from USA municipalities that put costs from $40,000 to $52,000 to install level 3 charging points,  you have to get the (3 phase) power to the site, pay for the actual electrical gear, prepare and concrete / tarmac the site,  pay your liability insurance in case your charger electrocutes someone etc.  etc.   Then there is an ongoing maintenance cost (including when the scrotes keep nicking your cables for the metal LOL).   Installing stuff on motorway service area is bound to be expensive as they are normally a long way from anywhere.

I will be happy when we can see the true cost being payed by EV users and then see what the economics are  - they cannot live in their taxpayer subsidised bubble for ever.  I have a feeling that private EV charging companies will want to see a return on their investment, as should government funded ones.  Tesla will want to raise their charges soon,  as they cannot keep providing a free / subsidised infrastructure and fuel  for ever - that is a terrible business model.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 20, 2017, 07:21:53 PM
Tesla cannot keep providing a free / subsidised infrastructure and fuel  for ever - that is a terrible business model.
Only on cars purchased before 1st January 2018.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on October 26, 2017, 09:57:56 AM
This morning - as I write -  Gridwatch says renewable sources provide 10% of all electricity consumed...
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 26, 2017, 10:18:31 AM
It is weird their mix today. Demand is high, we are almost at max CCGT, but little or no wind in the equation. It is blowing well here and all the local turbines are turning, but the rest of the country must be becalmed in this high the weather lot are talking about.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on October 26, 2017, 01:44:49 PM
No wind here (Staffordshire/Cheshire borders).

Next door's flag hanging lifeless..
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest5079 on October 26, 2017, 02:38:34 PM
Haircut Tuesday. Latest on the ZOE.   I didn't realise that different manufacturers use different plugs for recharging.
Hairdresser still glad the ZOE is going. She related a trip which was well within the cars range but it was night and raining so she pulled into service area where she knew there was a charging point, for a top up while she had a coffee only to find it was out of action and the other point was a different fit. She is no shrinking violet but the episode made her a little nervous as she was on her own. Her thoughts were what would have happened had she travelled a few miles more before returning for home.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 26, 2017, 02:47:53 PM
Haircut Tuesday. Latest on the ZOE.   I didn't realise that different manufacturers use different plugs for recharging.
Hairdresser still glad the ZOE is going. She related a trip which was well within the cars range but it was night and raining so she pulled into service area where she knew there was a charging point, for a top up while she had a coffee only to find it was out of action and the other point was a different fit. She is no shrinking violet but the episode made her a little nervous as she was on her own. Her thoughts were what would have happened had she travelled a few miles more before returning for home.

I think for a female who travels alone, that presently an EV is not a good choice. IMHO no matter how many charging points are fitted,  because of their location (in car parks, side of main roads etc.) there will be a good chance chance of them being vandalised, probably will have the charging cables stolen for copper scrap. After all who is going to vandalise a petrol pump on a petrol station when they are normally open 24 hours and have good CCTV.   If charging points have to be staffed like petrol stations to prevent vandalism that will both reduce the number of charging sites and push price of charging up.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 26, 2017, 02:55:24 PM
No wind here (Staffordshire/Cheshire borders).

Next door's flag hanging lifeless..

Not a breath of wind in Shropshire either,  and very cloudy - which is bad news for 'renewables' today, when I looked a short while ago the gas powered CCGT (the renewables best friend) were supplying 60% of our grid power, with nuclear at 20% wind <5% and solar <3% LOL

If they keep burning gas at this rate to keep electric grid happy my CH boiler and cooker will be going out soon, followed by the house lights and TV when they use up all our gas reserves ( our only hope is fracking).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on October 26, 2017, 03:31:01 PM
All these gas fired power stations are paid to be on call - in case renewables don't produce.
And people wonder why are bills are rising..

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 27, 2017, 09:54:29 AM
Getting back on thread, I was directed to this today.

https://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2017_10/pr0301.htm (https://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2017_10/pr0301.htm)

This could be a game changer.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 27, 2017, 12:02:45 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/road-tests/96441241/mazdas-new-skyactivx-petrol-plans-to-put-the-pressure-on-electric-vehicles

To be fair I think my brothers new Skoda 1.4 direct injection petrol works pretty much the same way,  he gets good performance (0-60 in less than 8 seconds) and good economy (60mpg+) on a run.   The main thing is getting rid of pumping losses by getting rid of the throttle butterfly found in petrol engines (but not in diesel,  which is the main reason they get better mpg, combined with the fact that diesel is heavier and more dense than petrol and contains about 20% more energy).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on October 27, 2017, 12:11:14 PM
Getting back on thread, I was directed to this today.

https://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2017_10/pr0301.htm (https://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2017_10/pr0301.htm)

This could be a game changer.

Yes definitely a game changer in the UK.. 
"320km on 6-minute, ultra-rapid recharge, triple that possible with current lithium-ion battery."

So battery capacity approx 81KWH - approx..  so to charge it requires a 810KWH connection  (6mins)  which at 240 V =approx 300amps .
The mains cables in the substations will melt.. .No UK house could charge that - the consumer unit would stop at 100Amps..

20 years to update the infrastructure.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 27, 2017, 01:47:26 PM
Getting back on thread, I was directed to this today.

https://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2017_10/pr0301.htm (https://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2017_10/pr0301.htm)

This could be a game changer.



20 years to update the infrastructure.

Will take longer than 20 years to decide on charging voltage and plug standards - otherwise most people will rock up at charging point and plug will not fit their car, otherwise a boot full of adaptor plugs, like travelling abroad.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 27, 2017, 01:55:20 PM
What you have is battery storage in the back of your garage. That is trickle charged, by either the mains or your PV cells. When you need to charge your car in a hurry you just dump the lot.
Regarding cables, all EVs can be charged from a standard 13A plug top. Not rapidly, but charged nonetheless.
As a maintenance engineer for 50 years it was my job to look for solutions, not further problems. Not many maintenance engineers here today.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 27, 2017, 02:26:00 PM

Yes definitely a game changer in the UK.. 
"320km on 6-minute, ultra-rapid recharge, triple that possible with current lithium-ion battery."

So battery capacity approx 81KWH - approx..  so to charge it requires a 810KWH connection  (6mins)  which at 240 V =approx 300amps .
The mains cables in the substations will melt.. .No UK house could charge that - the consumer unit would stop at 100Amps..

20 years to update the infrastructure.

Actually at 240 volts 1 kw = 4 amps,  so 810KW x 4 = 3,240 amps for 6 minutes - that is some cable you will need, mind you we will have superconductors at room temperature by then so cable will only be 1mm diameter (all aboard the 'Tomorrows World' bus LOL).

Just a guess but at that charging rate I guess the battery may get hot (Boeing Dreamliner fires a few years ago)  so may need to add a cooling system to battery - further increasing weight of vehicle.

When I was in maintenance we did predictive fault finding, using experience to highlight possible weak spots in equipment,  once you have found the problem the solution can be pretty straightforward.  I can see many weak spots in EV roll-out the way it is being done (by Hype and subsidies) when lack of standards and infrastructure are being ignored by clueless governments who are being advised by people with very firmly vested interests (in their own profits,  not the future of the planet).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 27, 2017, 07:27:40 PM
The following calculations disregard inefficiencies of invertors, transformers etc.
The battery quoted is 32kW. At 375 volts you would be talking about 850 amps to transfer that from a Storage battery to the car. A huge current but not insurmountable as designs improve (multi pin connectors a possibility). Running direct off a single phase of the mains, at the UK standard of 230 volts, would require 1400 amps, which can never happen. Even 3 phase would require a huge current. However, single phase, 230 volts, 20 amps would charge the storage battery pack in less than 8 hours.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 27, 2017, 08:21:05 PM
The following calculations disregard inefficiencies of invertors, transformers etc.
However, single phase, 230 volts, 20 amps would charge the storage battery pack in less than 8 hours.

For an 100kw/h battery, which will become the norm as most EV can get around 3km per KWh.

230 volts single phase at 20 amps would put 5KW an hour into battery,  that means at least 20 hours (ignoring inefficiency of equipment and charging efficiency of battery), off a 13 amp plug it would be 3KW an hour, or 33 hours.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 27, 2017, 08:58:33 PM
Sorry. The battery quoted is 32kW not 320kW. The charge rate for 6 minutes is where the 320kW came in to the equation. The battery storage would need 32kW hence my numbers.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest1372 on October 28, 2017, 01:56:20 PM
The rapid chargers are DC, the use of a local storage battery is implied.  The neighbourhood grid will not have to deal with temporary high peak loads.  The long term aim is to locally buffer generated power for local supply.  It will end up as part of a more holistic approach incorporating solar feed in, power loan back, & demand balancing.

This is the same method drone flyers use: at the field you rapid charge your small flight packs from a large storage battery.
--
TG
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on October 30, 2017, 06:41:23 AM
"Toyota are working on a new solid state battery technology which promises to be game changing – if not quite disruptive – with the original claims for the batteries suggesting they would deliver a 600 mile range and cost 90 per cent less than current batteries."

Read more: http://www.carsuk.net/toyota-wont-share-600-mile-ev-battery-technology/#ixzz4wyGx0pSk
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: rogbro on October 31, 2017, 03:30:25 PM
Conclusion of an environmental impact of electric cars .

  Over the cars life, from mining the Lithium and Cobalt for its batteries, to the breakers yard. 
Environmentally Electric cars are NO better that a modern petrol one.   In fact if the electricity used to charge it, is from a fossil fuel generating plant.  They are worse.   
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on October 31, 2017, 03:37:00 PM
Conclusion of an environmental impact of electric cars .

  Over the cars life, from mining the Lithium and Cobalt for its batteries, to the breakers yard. 
Environmentally Electric cars are NO better that a modern petrol one.   In fact if the electricity used to charge it, is from a fossil fuel generating plant.  They are worse.

Without any reference to back up such a bald statement, it's less than useless...
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 31, 2017, 04:18:45 PM
Lithium is extracted from Brine. Very little is mined. Cobalt is a by product of copper and nickel mining. Vast amounts of electricity is used in the refining of petrol. So unless we all go back to horses and Shanks' Pony we will continue to pollute the planet.
The supertanker bringing the oil from Saudi to Milford Haven burns 4,000 tons of crude plus roughly the same going back empty. Everything we do pollutes. EVs are no worse than any other car.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 31, 2017, 04:31:42 PM
Oh yes. What about the Platinum, Palladium and Rhodium used in catalytic converters? Production of them, either by mining or recycling, is also polluting the environment.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest4871 on October 31, 2017, 07:56:02 PM
Conclusion of an environmental impact of electric cars .

  Over the cars life, from mining the Lithium and Cobalt for its batteries, to the breakers yard. 
Environmentally Electric cars are NO better that a modern petrol one.   In fact if the electricity used to charge it, is from a fossil fuel generating plant.  They are worse.

Sounds logical to me.

Whilst city air might be better, the power generation pollution will be moved somewhere else.

Who would have thought even twenty years ago that nuclear power would today be cheered as the solution to all our problems. It used to be thought that radio active waste, which had half lives of centuries, eliminated practical use of nuclear power.

I suspect all this is a case of what you gain on the roundabouts you lose on the swings.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 31, 2017, 08:22:21 PM
Who would have thought even twenty years ago that nuclear power would today be cheered as the solution to all our problems. It used to be thought that radio active waste, which had half lives of centuries, eliminated practical use of nuclear power.
Anyone who thinks that nuclear power is the saviour of mankind is delusional. It is uneconomic to construct (unless you have a government printing the money to do so), it isn't safe, and it will leave a lasting legacy of polluted land and materials that will foul the planet  for centuries. Radioactive isotopes eventually decay, or disintegrate, to harmless materials. Some isotopes decay in hours or even minutes, but others decay very slowly. Strontium-90 and Caesium-137 have half-lives of about 30 years (half the radioactivity will decay in 30 years). Plutonium-239 has a half-life of 24,000 years. We would do less damage to the planet burning stuff.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 02, 2017, 07:01:11 AM
Tesla has just announced its biggest ever quarterly loss, pushing their shares down by 5%. They are failing miserably in ramping up production of the Model 3, and also experiencing problems with their Gigafactory battery production.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 02, 2017, 09:29:37 AM
Tesla has just announced its biggest ever quarterly loss, pushing their shares down by 5%. They are failing miserably in ramping up production of the Model 3, and also experiencing problems with their Gigafactory battery production.

This is where the big 'professional' car makers will win out,  they have the design, planning, R&D / testing  and technical ability - not just pie in the sky ideas, crossed fingers and a hand held out for taxpayer subsidies and shareholder money LOL.

I have worked in first tier suppliers plants and car-plants installing automation, and I can tell you car making is a dog-eat-dog industry,  where not only do car brands compete against each other but different plants of the same company compete against each other for quality, efficiency and profitability,  and the losers don't get the new models when they are planned.

Of the 11 initial 'wannabee' makers of autonomous vehicles in USA there are only 6 left,  mainly the large 'old-tech conventional car companies' that silicon valley was 'gonna  blow out of the water with their sheer brainpower' LOL  ??? Making cars is a complicated high volume low margin business, one recall can cost you dearly,  as Tesla will find out real soon.  Sell your shares now if you have any.  Once the 'wheels start to fall off' (literally - see link at bottom of post) Tesla business model, hard headed investors will make rats leaving a sinking ship seem slow,  and his boast of having more cash than GM and Ford will evaporate, then he better hope that his space rockets, pods sucked through tube mass transport etc will keep his company afloat.

Here are some fun photos of Tesla cars where the suspension has failed and / or the wheel has simply decided to go in a different direction to the others (they really need to sort the auto-pilot software out).

https://www.flickr.com/photos/136377865@N05/albums/72157658490111523

One of the comments was 'if Tesla made aircraft, all their models would be grounded by now'.

Tesla may be better offering free vehicle recovery than free charging,  as it seems a Tesla is at its most dangerous when there is some power in the battery to propel the vehicle.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 03, 2017, 09:03:52 AM
https://www.wired.com/2017/04/detroit-stomping-silicon-valley-self-driving-car-race/

More bad news for silicon valley boys.

My guess is that having avoided using LIDAR on cost grounds that Tesla will have to start using it (everyone else seems to be) and that will  knock their 'affordable car' dreams on the head.  Cameras just do not cut it in certain situations that humans and Lidar can deal with.

Another reason why AI is not ready yet to replace humans.......

https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/2/16597276/google-ai-image-attacks-adversarial-turtle-rifle-3d-printed

Because AI doesn’t look for patterns and forms the same way humans do. I wrote a bit more about this problem here, but it helps to think of these systems as essentially alien consciousnesses. They are completely devoid of any of the context or knowledge all humans on this planet take for granted. Like, what an animal is or isn’t, or whether something looks heavy or light, or a thousand other factors.

Instead, they pick up on very subtle cues to recognize objects, and often we don’t know what it is they’re picking up on. They might learn to recognize a cat is because it has whiskers (but so does nearly every other animal), or they might think that anything with fur is a cat. Or it could be just when they see seven dark pixels followed by six light ones in a diagonal pattern, that’s a cat. They’ll think this simply because that’s a pattern that fits all the cats they’ve previously seen. But show them one picture of a cat that doesn’t fit this pattern, and they’ll be confused. It’s why these systems are so fragile — and not just vision ones. They don’t have general knowledge about the world.


on actually making cars...........

“With all of that in mind, it’s far easier for an existing car manufacturer to replicate the sort of logistics platform that Uber or Lyft have than it is for those companies to invest in and create the development, manufacturing, and service infrastructure that [original equipment manufacturers] have,” Abuelsamid said. “That’s exactly what’s already happening as all the leading OEMs already invested in or developing their own services.”

Abuelsamid noted that Tesla was ranked pretty far down the “contender” because Elon Musk’s company is “lacking in quality, distribution, financial stability and their [Autopilot] 2.0 hardware will never be more than limited Level 4-capable at best.” In other words, Musk would be advised not to start gloating about his company being valued higher than Ford quite yet.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 03, 2017, 12:47:02 PM
They do seem to be struggling to get the model 3 out and the new 2018 Nissan Leaf looks a much better bet for people at the lower end of the market.

Where Tesla do score, if you can afford one, is in their much better charging network. The current infrastructure for other EVs remains a joke. Yes it's improving but from a very low base. Still too much fiddling with apps in the driving wind and rain for my liking. Even passionate EV advocates post videos of charging nightmares. The current infrastructure is inadequate, unreliable and the mechanism for charging impossibly complex. There is no need for an App - I have asked this question many times on EV forums and nobody can come up with an answer.

I've decided I'll be a laggard in the EV take up - after all I've got 23 years left and I'll be in my 90s when the ban on ICEs comes in (assuming I live that long!!!)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 03, 2017, 02:24:33 PM
They do seem to be struggling to get the model 3 out and the new 2018 Nissan Leaf looks a much better bet for people at the lower end of the market.

I've decided I'll be a laggard in the EV take up - after all I've got 23 years left and I'll be in my 90s when the ban on ICEs comes in (assuming I live that long!!!)

Yeah,  the new Leaf is a much better looking car than their strange offerings up to now, and with a usable range.

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/nissan/leaf/100743/new-nissan-leaf-2018-prices-specs-release-date

I think most people are like you,  waiting for prices to drop,  range to increase and charging infrastructure to standardise and get its ars3 into gear before they make a switch,  with technology changing so fast and no sign of being able to upgrade older models to new (larger) battery capacity people are wary of buying something that will be out of date and well down in value in a year or two.

With their production failing and the company continuing to haemorrhage (taxpayer and shareholder) money Tesla may not be in a position to roll out more charging stations at the rate they have been.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 03, 2017, 02:43:14 PM
Very good point about the battery upgrade. The manufacturers are reluctant to allow this. There are also myths being perpetrated that it will be possible to replace dud cells in a degrading battery. I have looked into this in some detail. I have posed the question on a number of EV forums along the lines of "Do you know anybody who has replaced a dud cell in a battery." The silence is deafening. The best answer I got came from somebody who said that when he had his battery analysed all the cells were degrading at a similar rate so replacing one or two would be pointless.

There is some way to go before mass adoption. They make a great second car if you have an ICE for longer trips but, as a one car family, they are not for me as yet or even close if I'm honest.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest5079 on November 04, 2017, 10:51:55 AM
When I started this thread I had no idea of the interest it would bring. Has any other thread managed 28 pages and still going.
Perhaps motor manufacturers might do well to read Club Jazz on the subject of EV's. might give them some pointers.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on November 04, 2017, 01:08:55 PM
Very good point about the battery upgrade. The manufacturers are reluctant to allow this. There are also myths being perpetrated that it will be possible to replace dud cells in a degrading battery. I have looked into this in some detail. I have posed the question on a number of EV forums along the lines of "Do you know anybody who has replaced a dud cell in a battery." The silence is deafening. The best answer I got came from somebody who said that when he had his battery analysed all the cells were degrading at a similar rate so replacing one or two would be pointless.

There is some way to go before mass adoption. They make a great second car if you have an ICE for longer trips but, as a one car family, they are not for me as yet or even close if I'm honest.

http://www.hybridbatterysolutions.co.uk/prices-and-services/   is one of many repairers..Google will find many more. 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 04, 2017, 05:29:59 PM
I notice this is specifically for Toyota Hybrids. Of course there are a lot of these on the road so after market providers have a big customer base. It may be, in time, a similar set up arises for EVs but, at the moment, a lot of people seem to be putting up with the loss of battery capacity. The value of a car with lost capacity drops like a stone. I'm seeing some Leafs at around the £3,000 mark now - not many and not at dealers but shows that an old Leaf is not worth a lot.

One thing that I have gleaned from lurking round the EV scene is that Tesla batteries seem to be holding up better but they, unlike the Leaf, have active battery cooling.

The advice seems to be that you need to build in battery degradation into any purchase so that probably explains why most Leafs are bought on PCP deals. If you are buying second hand the advice seems to be to ask yourself how long you want to keep the car and whether you could still cope with, say, 75% capacity after 6 years or so. This means a car that could do 80 miles would be down to 60 and, possibly, below 50 in bad weather.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on November 04, 2017, 08:03:00 PM
Many Leafs are cheap because you still have to lease the batteries. Prices rise if you buy one with owned batteries.

The repairers for Toyota are mirrored  - in a smaller scale - for other hybrids. Not that there are many of them..
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on November 04, 2017, 09:38:09 PM
Old Leafs with battery seem to start around the £5-6K mark, unless you are prepared to delve into salvage auctions... which wouldn't put me off at the right price.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 04, 2017, 10:54:03 PM
Old Leafs with battery seem to start around the £5-6K mark, unless you are prepared to delve into salvage auctions... which wouldn't put me off at the right price.

I have seen some discussion around buying an old Leaf with a degraded battery and putting a new one in for, I think, around £5,000 thus giving you a car with decent capability for around £7,000 to £8,000.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest1372 on November 05, 2017, 06:14:07 PM
Still wouldn't drive an EV through a ford.
--
TG
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 05, 2017, 06:51:17 PM
Still wouldn't drive an EV through a ford.
I, after over 50 years of driving, have only once encountered a ford. Depends where you live I suppose. Flooding, an increasingly more common occurrence, would be a bigger worry.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 06, 2017, 07:11:50 AM
E.on has announced it is going to expand its charging network across Europe by a further 10,000 charging points by 2020. These will include the UK. They will be rapid chargers, capable of 150 kW (equivalent to the Tesla Supercharger) and with a modular upgrade option for 350 kW available.
They have also released a cool video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaC7QCZvZ74&list=PLLmBxZJyM4N82bkFkwWSbGgUiPkVMuVBf&t=3 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaC7QCZvZ74&list=PLLmBxZJyM4N82bkFkwWSbGgUiPkVMuVBf&t=3)

This comes on top of BMW, Daimler, VW Group and Ford announced their plans to add 400 ultra-fast chargers by 2020 as well. That is a drop in the ocean, but if the four are working together it at least means some standardisation in connectivity.

Add to that that Chris Grayling is expected to announce later today that legislation should be in place, by 2021, permitting self driving vehicles to be used on UK roads.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 06, 2017, 08:48:05 AM
Still wouldn't drive an EV through a ford.
I, after over 50 years of driving, have only once encountered a ford. Depends where you live I suppose. Flooding, an increasingly more common occurrence, would be a bigger worry.

When driving through flood (or even parked up on a flooded area) and electricity and water meet the resultant gassing would re-float the car,  and any passing hydrogen car could get a free fill-up,  after which the EV would either explode from a spark in the electrics or the occupants would be subject to 'electric chair' treatment LOL

Better make sure they don't install charging points on flood plains or flood prone areas (which unfortunately includes most areas in UK where houses are built).

I'm assuming that any EV caught in a flood would have its battery and inverters and any electronics 'below the water level' well and truly fried - ££££££££'s
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest5079 on November 06, 2017, 09:39:50 AM
Has the Fire Service sorted out their concerns over putting water on an EV? Given Culzean's comment about water plus other = hydrogen I am not surprised Trumpton is concerned.
Sorry no disrespect to the Fire service. Working alongside retained Fire persons we were Plod and they were Trumpton.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on November 06, 2017, 09:44:27 AM
I can drive through a small ford locally once a week when travelling to our Beekeeping Association Apiary. It's not very deep in dry weather but over 30cms in wet. I choose not to as frequent immersion in water can lead to water ingress into the wheel bearings - bad news. (Citroen Xantias had gearbox water ingress in floods!).. Water in car electrics usually means future contact corrosion and multiple electronic problems.. run away job.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 06, 2017, 10:00:01 AM
Has the Fire Service sorted out their concerns over putting water on an EV? Given Culzean's comment about water plus other = hydrogen I am not surprised Trumpton is concerned.
Sorry no disrespect to the Fire service. Working alongside retained Fire persons we were Plod and they were Trumpton.

Most EV batteries work at 350V DC and above,  bearing in mind that anything over 48volts is considered a shock hazard in IEEE electrical regs no wonder Trumpton is a bit wary of dealing with EV,  also when an EV crashes the amount of energy stored is well capable of causing an explosion,  and unlike petrol you can't wash electricity away with water or foam.  The leakage of flammable Ethylene Glycol coolant (basically alcohol) from battery cooling systems can feed the flames.

https://jalopnik.com/watch-volunteer-firefighters-in-austria-extinguish-a-fi-1819665352

It is not only shock hazard,  fire fighters have to wear breathing apparatus to deal with the toxic cocktail of gasses given off by Lithium battery fire,  and Tesla advise keeping vehicle in quarantine for minimum 48 hours after crash to make sure other fires / explosions do not spontaneously happen - scary stuff.

Why Tesla don't fit an 'isolate on impact' device I don't know,  normal cars have a device to disconnect fuel pump power supply in event of a crash.   I wonder if the not-so-well known (it has been hushed up) propensity for Tesla cars to have suspension failure resulting in wheels randomly falling off was the cause of this crash,  or a failure of autopilot software.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 06, 2017, 10:37:56 AM
or a failure of autopilot software.
It looked like a cause of auto pilot failure to me. Or to be more precise - a driver sitting behind the wheel who failed to notice the warning signs followed by concrete barriers in the road.
Just a practical demonstration of Darwin's theory
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 06, 2017, 01:03:22 PM
or a failure of autopilot software.
It looked like a cause of auto pilot failure to me. Or to be more precise - a driver sitting behind the wheel who failed to notice the warning signs followed by concrete barriers in the road.
Just a practical demonstration of Darwin's theory

Don't tell me that tesla useless cameras that are supposed to brake the car didn't notice the barrier either - who would have thought it.  Wonder what their excuse will be this time as no white clouds behind a white lorry to blame.

I bet that when pilot plays a movie the autopilot watches it as well.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 06, 2017, 03:01:40 PM
The main thing is, without trying to defend Tesla, their Autopilot is sold as a driver "assist". It is not there to replace the driver. It is not able to replace the driver (as you are so keen to point out). If a driver wishes to risk their life by depending on a system that is still being developed then that is their lookout (and any other poor soul that gets on their way). I haven't seen the Tesla users manual (I am sure thought that it will be a lengthy tome), but I am positive it will state, in no uncertain terms, that the Autopilot cannot and should not be the sole method of controlling the car.
Every other developer of EVs seems to use LIDAR. Tesla does not. I am sure, in the future, they will regret that engineering choice.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 06, 2017, 03:17:20 PM
The main thing is, without trying to defend Tesla, their Autopilot is sold as a driver "assist". It is not there to replace the driver. It is not able to replace the driver (as you are so keen to point out). If a driver wishes to risk their life by depending on a system that is still being developed then that is their lookout (and any other poor soul that gets on their way). I haven't seen the Tesla users manual (I am sure thought that it will be a lengthy tome), but I am positive it will state, in no uncertain terms, that the Autopilot cannot and should not be the sole method of controlling the car.
Every other developer of EVs seems to use LIDAR. Tesla does not. I am sure, in the future, they will regret that engineering choice.

All this just makes plain to me that all the autonomous vehicle roadmap levels 1 to 4 are a waste of time and only level 5 (a fully autonomous vehicle) is workable, any attempt to 'assist' the driver are  waste of time, as you end up with neither the car or driver in charge, you get a distracted driver and a potential accident.  Statistics coming from USA (which I posted earlier in thread) point to the fact that accidents have increased by 15% since 2014 when 'driver aids' were introduced in vehicles because drivers think that whatever they do the car will save them.  I actually think that airbags, seatbelts, crumple zones, and other safety features   actually mean drivers take more risks, so fooling them into thinking a semi autonomous car will save their sorry @ss from their stupidity and lack of attention is asking for trouble.

https://www.vox.com/new-money/2017/7/5/15840860/tesla-waymo-audi-self-driving
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 06, 2017, 03:50:53 PM
I agree almost entirely. I remember when seat belts were first introduced they gave a feeling on invincibility.
The only thing I disagree with is the "waste of time" levels. Both 4 and 5 are fully autonomous. Level 4 means the vehicle is autonomous in a defined area (be that a city, a state or a country). Level 5 means the vehicle can go anywhere in the world. I consider myself Level 4, because I am comfortable in the UK, as long as I am not in a city I don't know! I hate driving in busy cities and wouldn't dream of driving in London. When I was younger I was Level 5, driving anywhere in the world I was sent.
So an autonomous taxi may be programmed for Greater London and no more. That is an example of Level 4.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinS on November 06, 2017, 04:12:04 PM
I think modern motoring has given us a cocooned sense of security within warm and soundproofed cabins and in my opinion, autonomy levels 1 to 3 add to this feeling of reliance on the vehicle.

A prime example of the motorist not taking the responsibility is the use of headlights in the fog.  Some of us forget there is a manual on/off switch (well maybe not off but that’s a different subject).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 06, 2017, 05:21:56 PM
I think modern motoring has given us a cocooned sense of security within warm and soundproofed cabins and in my opinion, autonomy levels 1 to 3 add to this feeling of reliance on the vehicle.

A prime example of the motorist not taking the responsibility is the use of headlights in the fog.  Some of us forget there is a manual on/off switch (well maybe not off but that’s a different subject).

A good many drivers need to be reminded that being allowed to drive over a tonne of metal at high speed on a road network shared with millions of others is a big responsibility, requires all your attention all the time and is not to be taken lightly and that it is a privilege not a g#d given right.

Motorbike riders call cars 'fug boxes' - an apt description of the enclosed, overheated atmosphere inside.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on November 06, 2017, 09:28:24 PM
The main thing is, without trying to defend Tesla, their Autopilot is sold as a driver "assist". It is not there to replace the driver. It is not able to replace the driver (as you are so keen to point out). If a driver wishes to risk their life by depending on a system that is still being developed then that is their lookout (and any other poor soul that gets on their way). I haven't seen the Tesla users manual (I am sure thought that it will be a lengthy tome), but I am positive it will state, in no uncertain terms, that the Autopilot cannot and should not be the sole method of controlling the car.
Every other developer of EVs seems to use LIDAR. Tesla does not. I am sure, in the future, they will regret that engineering choice.

All this just makes plain to me that all the autonomous vehicle roadmap levels 1 to 4 are a waste of time and only level 5 (a fully autonomous vehicle) is workable, any attempt to 'assist' the driver are  waste of time, as you end up with neither the car or driver in charge, you get a distracted driver and a potential accident.  Statistics coming from USA (which I posted earlier in thread) point to the fact that accidents have increased by 15% since 2014 when 'driver aids' were introduced in vehicles because drivers think that whatever they do the car will save them.  I actually think that airbags, seatbelts, crumple zones, and other safety features   actually mean drivers take more risks, so fooling them into thinking a semi autonomous car will save their sorry @ss from their stupidity and lack of attention is asking for trouble.

https://www.vox.com/new-money/2017/7/5/15840860/tesla-waymo-audi-self-driving

Thanks for the above link . I read it with interest...so full automation with no driver input is the way to go it seems?

I drive along single track unlisted roads every week form March to September to travel to our Association Apiary to help to train novice beekeepers. There are passing spaces every 100 meters to every 500 meters depending on the road. I find it difficult to believe that the road will be passable for fully autonomous cars as the judgement required to pull off the road involves an assessment of the surface conditions (mud,ruts,banks) and the hazards - many very steep but hidden ditches, horses,tractors coming out of hidden field entrances etc (you hear them before you see them) etc.
This could mean some roads in such a car might become inaccessible..
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 07, 2017, 06:56:19 AM
Personally I think there will be many years of Level 4 before level 5 is sufficiently developed. Initially, I believe, Level 4 will be confined to cities. The major cities will have fleets of autonomous cabs, and as technology improves the autonomous vehicle will be rolled out wider and wider.
Having said that, a self driving vehicle, on a road like you quoted, will probably be a lot safer than most drivers. It won't push on just because it is a 4x4 and will intimidate smaller vehicles, it will more easily be able to compute the speed of oncoming vehicles, using its sophisticated LIDAR (judging speed of approaching vehicles is the most difficult task for humans, especially as they get older, and is one of the reasons many older motorists end up in accidents), and the wheel and inertia sensors on autonomous vehicles make excellent choices regarding road surface and grip.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 07, 2017, 09:35:31 AM
I think Culzean sums up for me part of the problem with increasing but not yet full autonomy. As the car takes over some functions but still relies on the driver for overall control, complacency is going to set in - indeed IS setting in. The distractions of these wretched infotainment systems are another factor.

I wonder if we will see an increase in RTAs over the next few years as we enter this semi autonomous era.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 07, 2017, 09:49:10 AM
accidents have increased by 15% since 2014 when 'driver aids' were introduced in vehicles
As culzean says, this has already happened.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 07, 2017, 10:14:47 AM
accidents have increased by 15% since 2014 when 'driver aids' were introduced in vehicles
As culzean says, this has already happened.

It is happening with aviation as well with computers taking over the mundane tasks in aircraft.  A case in the link I posted where an Air France passenger plane en-route South America to France had all its speed sensors ice up, the autopilot turned itself off and the crew had no idea what was wrong and did all the wrong things,  by the time the crew thought to wake the (older) senior pilot who did realise what had happened it was too late and plane 'belly flopped' into the Atlantic.  Another recent episode where a fuel leak on one airbus engine was draining fuel from one tank the crew suspected computer problems and manually took over,  in the end the plane ran out of fuel mid-Atlantic and they had to glide the aircraft 75miles to land on a military airfield in the Azores.

Aviation and vehicles have the same problem, too much reliance on computers is breeding complacency and sapping the skills of aircrew and when the computers fail or do the wrong thing humans have to take over and it is a very steep learning curve.  The fact is that the heroes of most aviation incidents are older pilots who have more idea what to do when the computers screw up or things generally go t!ts up.  Hopefully if an autonomous car screws up it will just pull over and put the hazards on and auto-dial the AA to come and rescue it.

I was recently given a flying lesson as a birthday gift, the pilot who I was with was mid-thirties and a fully qualified 'heavy' pilot (up to 4 engine aircraft), he gave it up to do 'proper' flying as an instructor on light aircraft at local flying because he said airliner pilots these days are no more than glorified bus drivers / computer minders and it is boring as h3ll.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 07, 2017, 10:27:01 AM
accidents have increased by 15% since 2014 when 'driver aids' were introduced in vehicles
As culzean says, this has already happened.

Came across this article under the heading 'it's been a tough week for self-driving cars'

http://driving.ca/auto-news/news/motor-mouth-autonomous-cars-uber-san-francisco

and on the same site..........

http://driving.ca/auto-news/news/the-road-to-fully-autonomous-cars-is-the-most-dangerous

http://driving.ca/nissan/leaf/auto-news/news/self-driving-cars-will-worsen-traffic-and-nobody-will-care
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest5079 on November 07, 2017, 03:00:16 PM
Again a deviation: One thing Trumpton used to impress upon us was the extreme dangers of a burning car and this was before EV's. Most of the rubber used in modern cars when ignited gives off highly toxic fumes and so Trumpton ALWAYS wore breathing apparatus when dealing with a car fire.
I was mindful when attending  a car fire of the immediate danger, after being hot on the tail of those little darlings that nobody understands, when they set light to the car as they vacated it. Of course we had to stay with the car because of the hazard to others. It was the first and only time I had been close to a burning car when it was just set alight. Well remembering that which we had been told I stood back when the tank went. Not funny but unlike american films the whole car did not disintegrate but bits of metal sure did fly.
I should think Hydrogen is a much different kettle of fish. Many years ago at BOC welding school, they were very touchy on safety. Acetylene not used much now but if the fire got inside, the cylinder would unwind, acetylene cylinder were made like toilet roll inners.. If Oxygen got inside NOTHING just everything in the immediate vicinity vapourised. What does H and O do togather?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 07, 2017, 05:31:59 PM
A hydrogen fire, in the open, though fierce, tends to be over quickly with not a lot of damage. Because the hydrogen in lighter than air it goes up into the air pretty quick and people on the ground have a chance of escaping (think Hindenburg - of the 97 on board 62 survived). A petrol fire of a similar magnitude is far more dangerous.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest1372 on November 07, 2017, 11:36:06 PM
.... Having said that, a self driving vehicle, on a road like you quoted, will probably be a lot safer than most drivers. It won't push on just because it is a 4x4 and will intimidate smaller vehicles, it will more easily be able to compute the speed of oncoming vehicles, using its sophisticated LIDAR
Don't forget, the cars will talk to each other probably before they can see each other, plus the benefits of collective intelligence about road conditions, hazards, obstacles etc.  They same as the benefits we get from collective speed data harvested from sat nav apps on the phone.
--
TG
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 08, 2017, 07:10:57 AM
Waymo, Google's autonomous vehicle wing, is extending their driverless taxi system in a couple of months.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/nov/07/google-waymo-announces-fully-autonomous-ride-hailing-service-uber-alphabet (https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/nov/07/google-waymo-announces-fully-autonomous-ride-hailing-service-uber-alphabet)

From Waymo's own website:
Like many Americans, Ted, Candace and their four kids have a busy driving routine — heading to work, to school, soccer practice, student council, choir rehearsal and more. Except Ted and Candace aren’t commuting in a typical car. Over the last month, this family, along with a handful of Phoenix, AZ residents, has been riding around in Waymo’s fleet of self-driving vehicles. They’re among the very first people in the world to take part in Waymo’s early rider program.
Now, residents in the Phoenix area can apply to join Candace, Ted, and their family in the early rider program. Over the course of this trial, we’ll be accepting hundreds of people with diverse backgrounds and transportation needs who want to ride in and give feedback about Waymo’s self-driving cars. Rather than offering people one or two rides, the goal of this program is to give participants access to our fleet every day, at any time, to go anywhere within an area that’s about twice the size of San Francisco.


So, say what you like, the future is here, whether you want it or not.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 08, 2017, 09:21:31 AM
Waymo, Google's autonomous vehicle wing, is extending their driverless taxi system in a couple of months.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/nov/07/google-waymo-announces-fully-autonomous-ride-hailing-service-uber-alphabet (https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/nov/07/google-waymo-announces-fully-autonomous-ride-hailing-service-uber-alphabet)

From Waymo's own website:
Like many Americans, Ted, Candace and their four kids have a busy driving routine — heading to work, to school, soccer practice, student council, choir rehearsal and more. Except Ted and Candace aren’t commuting in a typical car. Over the last month, this family, along with a handful of Phoenix, AZ residents, has been riding around in Waymo’s fleet of self-driving vehicles. They’re among the very first people in the world to take part in Waymo’s early rider program.
Now, residents in the Phoenix area can apply to join Candace, Ted, and their family in the early rider program. Over the course of this trial, we’ll be accepting hundreds of people with diverse backgrounds and transportation needs who want to ride in and give feedback about Waymo’s self-driving cars. Rather than offering people one or two rides, the goal of this program is to give participants access to our fleet every day, at any time, to go anywhere within an area that’s about twice the size of San Francisco.


So, say what you like, the future is here, whether you want it or not.

Waymo are not allowed to unleash driverless cars on the roads of California where their headquarters is,  even in Pheonix they still have a technician in the car.

Quote from NY times article ..............

"And though the cars are driverless, they are not entirely without humans, at least for now. Waymo employees sit in the back seat of the cars, monitoring them, a company spokesman, Johnny Luu, said."


Some of the challenges facing driverless cars that humans take in their stride everyday,

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/07/technology/autonomous-car-technology-challenges.html?action=click&contentCollection=Technology&module=RelatedCoverage&region=Marginalia&pgtype=article

And apparently Uber lied that one of their employees was driving the car when it drove through  a red light in San Francisco, some employees blew the whistle later................

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/24/technology/anthony-levandowski-waymo-uber-google-lawsuit.html?action=click&contentCollection=Technology&module=RelatedCoverage&region=Marginalia&pgtype=article
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 08, 2017, 11:01:52 AM
There's no doubt in my mind that autonomous cars are the future. Alongside that will come the end of individual car ownership - you will just hail one on an App and, once it has got you there, it will go on and respond to another call. This means, instead of 30 million lumps of metal cluttering up the place you might be able to manage with 10% of that number given that stats suggest the average car is unused for 90% of its time.

My fear is that people are getting ahead of themselves. This is going to take a long time and there is considerable consumer resistance. I don't expect to see the fully autonomous future in my lifetime and it might not be for another 30 or 40 years.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 08, 2017, 11:28:41 AM
There's no doubt in my mind that autonomous cars are the future. Alongside that will come the end of individual car ownership - you will just hail one on an App and, once it has got you there, it will go on and respond to another call. This means, instead of 30 million lumps of metal cluttering up the place you might be able to manage with 10% of that number given that stats suggest the average car is unused for 90% of its time.

My fear is that people are getting ahead of themselves. This is going to take a long time and there is considerable consumer resistance. I don't expect to see the fully autonomous future in my lifetime and it might not be for another 30 or 40 years.

Auto cars will be like trains and buses, there will have to be enough capacity to cover peaks, and unlike trains and buses people will not be allowed to be standing up and crammed into cars like 'battery' animals. There will also be empty auto cars running around,  I am sure many kids will find themselves packed off to school while parent does other stuff like having extra time in bed.  I have seen many articles saying that when people are relieved from 'chore' of driving there will be a movement of people further out into suburbia for cheaper housing with a large increase in commuting.  I still remember all the hype about people working from home and the paperless office when computers came in, never turned out like that at all, people still travel long distances to work at an office or factory,  and the amount of paper used has increased exponentially.

I agree we are still very much in the 'beta' stage of autonomy, much more proving and testing to be done,  the day an autonomous car ploughs into another car or pedestrians it will put a brake on things, because it will be a generic car / software problem, not the fault of an individual driver (as Uber tried to claim in SF).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 08, 2017, 12:17:07 PM
Coldest day we have had for a while, 45GW demand (just on edge of amber zone), 85% of power being supplied by Gas, nuclear, coal, hydro and biomass.  Come on renewables - you have cost taxpayer great deal but fail to deliver when we need it - if it had been even lightly cloudy today we would have lost the bit of solar we had and it would have been well over 90% from 'non-renewable' sources.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 08, 2017, 12:27:15 PM
Solar doing well today. Just no wind.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 08, 2017, 01:30:29 PM
I think the other thing that will put a brake on full autonomy is economics. Car manufacturers are still making conventional cars and there are no immediate plans to stop. There is a huge amount of equity in people's cars and a lot of debt as well. This is going to take some managing as we transition to a new model. I have heard people airily talk about scrappage schemes but it would have to be one almighty scrappage scheme to take, say, 20 million cars off the road to be replaced by autonomous vehicles that can be summoned as and when.

It's why people are getting ahead of themselves - this is going to take a long long time and there will be difficulties along the way.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 08, 2017, 02:01:51 PM
People like me, where a car purchase is a distress purchase, will probably be the first to change. If you cannot afford a car why buy one. Go down the autonomous cab route. Those in the know reckon it could be on par with a bus fare, for trips around town. Just so much more convenient. This will depress used car prices dramatically, so the people who have bought new will hold on to their cars for longer. When they eventually need to replace their vehicle then they too will go down the autonomous route.
It will all come down to economics. While it is cheaper to own and use your own car then autonomous vehicles wont have a great take up. The first to change are the people who use taxis and Uber style hires. Many of those don't own cars at the moment. The young will lap them up too. Many young people have no interest in learning to drive (I had my provisional for my 17th birthday and was out on the road that morning). My two grandsons have no interest in car ownership or learning to drive. Why should they. They like to go out drinking with mates, they live with their girlfriends (no need for a back seat) and taxis are a way of life for them.
Eventually, and it may take a few years, autonomous car hire will be so convenient and much cheaper than owning a car, so why should want the expense. People may still have the odd car for high days and holidays. Brought out in the summer, just as many born again bikers do with their machines.
There is no denying it. It will happen, like it or not. And probably sooner than many of us think.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 08, 2017, 02:54:30 PM
https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2017/06/22/what-will-car-ownership-look-like-in-the-future/#4febf6c66b99

It seems that Uber is displacing bus, train and taxis more than car ownership, this article says that cost of transport does not figure large in a lot of peoples minds - he cites the case of people who live in a city or suburbs but own a boat that needs to be towed around a couple of times a year - you would expect them to buy a small car for their mainly urban lifestyle and hire a 4X4 a couple of times a year to tow the boat,  but no they will buy and run a 4X4 for the whole time.  I know there is some truth in this because two of my brothers had boats and until recently they had 4X4 vehicles to tow the boat occasionally (they are a bit old to enjoy the boats now and have plumped for large estate cars).

http://economicstudents.com/2013/05/the-irrationality-of-the-rationality-assumption/

So another skill will be lost to humanity - driving,  which done properly is a proper brain workout.  They tested some drivers on a program the other day and asked them to do tasks while driving (counting backwards from 100, answering questions etc.), vast majority failed to do both,  some highly trained Police drivers took part and they admitted they couldn't do both but concentrated on the driving rather than allow their brain to be distracted by other tasks like the others did.

Autonomous cars is just continuing the really bad trend of more and more of the worlds technology and knowledge being compressed into fewer and fewer large corporations, and dumbing down the world for everyone else.

Best part of 10 million peoples jobs in USA are linked to transportation and are at risk, I don't have figure for UK but it will be a lot of people at risk of losing their job.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 08, 2017, 03:18:48 PM
2 interesting posts above and I agree with both of them in different ways!

Jocko is right, I think, about how the transition may happen. He is also right about the attitude of the young to driving. It has become ludicrously expensive to get on the road with insurance being a particular bug bear. If you fancy a drink then a car is a flippin' nuisance to be honest. Tomorrow we are meeting my cousin and her husband for a meal. The restaurant requires me to drive so half a shandy or an alcohol free beer tops for me whilst my wife and the other 2 glug a few glasses of Malbec. I just hate that (taxi would be £80 btw).

There is also a long standing migration of people to city centre type locations. If you live in London then a car is largely superfluous as it is in some other cities like Manchester with a decent tram system.

All these have seen a steep decline in new drivers.

But Culzean is also right about the dumbing down thing. How far do we want technology to replace human skills? A future where you ask Alexa to pour you a beer, cook you a meal and then summon up a ride is a future of pure vegetation. I think it's interesting that there are movements towards relearning some of the old skills like growing food on allotments etc.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on November 08, 2017, 04:25:55 PM
All very well for the urban young to have no cars: lots of choice..

Those who live at the edge of /in the country/small towns have zero choice: bus?  err none /slow. taxi? cost?  metro/underground? none...
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 08, 2017, 04:36:06 PM
Those who live at the edge of /in the country/small towns have zero choice: bus?  err none /slow. taxi? cost?  metro/underground? none...
This is perfectly correct but I still see a future where you will be catered for by an autonomous vehicle. You may well own it, instead of hire it. But even if it is not autonomous, I'd like to bet it will be electric (or whatever comes along to replace EVs!).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 08, 2017, 05:09:09 PM
Go down the autonomous cab route. Those in the know reckon it could be on par with a bus fare, for trips around town. Just so much more convenient.
It will all come down to economics. While it is cheaper to own and use your own car then autonomous vehicles wont have a great take up. The first to change are the people who use taxis and Uber style hires. Many of those don't own cars at the moment. The young will lap them up too. Many young people have no interest in learning to drive (I had my provisional for my 17th birthday and was out on the road that morning). My two grandsons have no interest in car ownership or learning to drive. Why should they. They like to go out drinking with mates, they live with their girlfriends (no need for a back seat) and taxis are a way of life for them.


Those who live at the edge of /in the country/small towns have zero choice: bus?  err none /slow. taxi? cost?  metro/underground? none...
This is perfectly correct but I still see a future where you will be catered for by an autonomous vehicle. You may well own it, instead of hire it. But even if it is not autonomous, I'd like to bet it will be electric (or whatever comes along to replace EVs!).

Many millennials stay with their parents far too long, they are too comfortable and have no get-up-and-go.  They may prefer to rent a small city apartment as an easy option for a while but soon the suburbs will call..............

https://www.inc.com/dustin-mckissen/studies-show-millennials-are-moving-to-suburbs-employers-are-following.html

https://www.forbes.com/sites/axiometrics/2017/05/02/will-millennials-follow-in-parents-home-buying-footsteps/#2fb401e13b3b
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 09, 2017, 06:45:15 AM
Many of you will be delighted to see that a driverless shuttle bus, in Las Vegas, was involved in a crash within two hours of starting the trial.
In its favour was the fact that the bus stopped when an artic started to reverse back into an alley. The lorry didn't, and eventually struck the front of the bus. Not a lot the bus could have done, assuming it was programmed to deal with the situation, as a car had stopped behind it. Having said that, as an ex bus driver, our written SOP was NEVER to reverse the bus except at a bus station or the bus garage. In a similar situation our priority was to stop the bus and keep the passengers safe, not to worry about the vehicle getting damaged. Never mind though. The naysayers will have a field day.

http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/11/08/self-operating-shuttle-bus-crashes-after-las-vegas-launch/ (http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/11/08/self-operating-shuttle-bus-crashes-after-las-vegas-launch/)

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 09, 2017, 09:38:21 AM
Now here is a statistic .....

One hundred million. That’s the number of miles, on average, that it takes a human driver to kill someone in the United States. It’s also the number of miles Tesla’s semi-autonomous ‘Autopilot’ feature had racked up by May this year.

One fatal accident every 100,000,000 miles...  lets see if Autonomous vehicles can match that,  because if they can't their whole Raison D'etre is null and void. 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 09, 2017, 03:25:49 PM
Watched an interesting thing, courtesy of a link from "Fully Charged". It was an Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill Parliamentary Scrutiny Committee meeting, and the questioning regarding insurance was most enlightening.
The insurers are most enthusiastic, and don't see a problem with autonomous vehicles. They reckon they will be far safer, lead to considerably cheaper premiums (even a reduction in premiums for conventional vehicles), and will lead to better proportioning of blame in a accidents. Here is the link (there is a portion near the beginning where the meeting is private so it actually starts about 9:34 on the clock)
Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill Parliamentary Scrutiny Committee meeting (http://Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill Parliamentary Scrutiny Committee meeting)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 09, 2017, 04:47:30 PM
Is this the same parliamentary committee that told everyone to buy diesel because of their ultra clean exhausts that were going to stop climate change ? Politicians are pretty much lawyers and accountants and know Jack-sh!t about anything, they are easily manipulated by lobbyists and hype.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 09, 2017, 04:52:55 PM
It was the Insurance and Road Research Laboratory experts that were the ones of interest. The politicians were just asking the questions. The same questions I would have wanted to ask them.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 10, 2017, 10:28:04 AM
Is this the same parliamentary committee that told everyone to buy diesel because of their ultra clean exhausts that were going to stop climate change ? Politicians are pretty much lawyers and accountants and know Jack-sh!t about anything, they are easily manipulated by lobbyists and hype.

Interesting you should bring this up. Had a meal last night with my cousin and her husband. He is a retired mechanical engineer who spent all his working life in and around the motor industry. He said that the dirty truth about diesel was known when the decision to encourage take up was made. A classic example of box ticking politics by the government of the day.

He was interesting on the subject of autonomous cars. He is firmly of the opinion that the idea that we will all be using autonomous cars anytime soon and in great numbers is strictly for the birds. Widespread uptake is many many years away. The big motor companies are getting involved but his sources indicate that planning for new conventional petrol and diesel cars are still in progress and new conventional models will be coming on to the market for years to come.

I wonder if, like the paperless office and nuclear energy so cheap it wouldn't be worth billing people for, these ideas of flying autonomous cars will be seen to be another prediction that is some way wide of the mark. There will be autonomous vehicles but possibly in limited applications.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 10, 2017, 11:02:57 AM
Is this the same parliamentary committee that told everyone to buy diesel because of their ultra clean exhausts that were going to stop climate change ? Politicians are pretty much lawyers and accountants and know Jack-sh!t about anything, they are easily manipulated by lobbyists and hype.

Interesting you should bring this up. Had a meal last night with my cousin and her husband. He is a retired mechanical engineer who spent all his working life in and around the motor industry. He said that the dirty truth about diesel was known when the decision to encourage take up was made. A classic example of box ticking politics by the government of the day.

He was interesting on the subject of autonomous cars. He is firmly of the opinion that the idea that we will all be using autonomous cars anytime soon and in great numbers is strictly for the birds. Widespread uptake is many many years away. The big motor companies are getting involved but his sources indicate that planning for new conventional petrol and diesel cars are still in progress and new conventional models will be coming on to the market for years to come.

I wonder if, like the paperless office and nuclear energy so cheap it wouldn't be worth billing people for, these ideas of flying autonomous cars will be seen to be another prediction that is some way wide of the mark. There will be autonomous vehicles but possibly in limited applications.

Apparently the 'visual' (spacial) maps needed for Waymo / Google autonomous vehicles to function (they are like Google streetview) have to be massively detailed which results in massive files and at the moment limits their use to small areas (and presumably slows down processing times).  Don't know what will happen when on larger roads with no real closely spaced visual clues, or if someone builds a new building or a new roundabout appears or a road gets re-routed (we all now what can happen on normal satnav). Seems that the streetview files will need constant updating.

My brother in law comment when he had his first satnav many years ago is very telling, he said 'I get to places but haven't a clue where the place is or how I got there' - didn't know if he had driven North, South, East or West !  Big tech doesn't care about the public, and whether autonomous cars are a solution looking for the problem or not,  all they care about is their bottom line......  They don't give a sh!t about how dumb our lives get as long as the dollars keep rolling in.  If Darwin was right about evolution,  right now our brains are shrinking and pretty soon our legs will wither (but our bodies will keep getting fatter).

Alexa order my autonomous car for 7-30......... and then cook my breakfast and make coffee, Oh iron my shirt and turn the TV on as well..............
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 10, 2017, 12:26:09 PM
I think the deskilling of humanity is a serious issue. It might be widening the debate beyond electric cars but a recent report in Prospect magazine indicated that the widely held view that excessive eating was the sole factor behind the obesity epidemic was way wide of the mark. Actual average calorific consumption had actually declined but inactivity had massively increased. Women do 7 hours a week less housework than they used to do, time spent commuting had increased, all sorts of other jobs had been outsourced - washing your own car marks you out as an eccentric where I live. A minority might be out jogging but the broad mass of the population rarely gets up off its collective bottom preferring machines and screens to take over their lives.

"Progress" isn't always for the best.

Maybe the Luddites had a point.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on November 10, 2017, 12:48:59 PM
I think the deskilling of humanity is a serious issue. It might be widening the debate beyond electric cars but a recent report in Prospect magazine indicated that the widely held view that excessive eating was the sole factor behind the obesity epidemic was way wide of the mark. Actual average calorific consumption had actually declined but inactivity had massively increased. Women do 7 hours a week less housework than they used to do, time spent commuting had increased, all sorts of other jobs had been outsourced - washing your own car marks you out as an eccentric where I live. A minority might be out jogging but the broad mass of the population rarely gets up off its collective bottom preferring machines and screens to take over their lives.

"Progress" isn't always for the best.

Maybe the Luddites had a point.

Obviously not seen the trolleys in Asda full of fizzy drinks and bread and pies..

"Britons are increasingly under-reporting their daily calorie consumption according to a new study, which could hamper the efforts of health experts to cut rising obesity levels."

"Participants in the study consumed closer to 3,000 calories on average, compared to the 2,000 often reported by adults in official statistics."


https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/aug/08/britons-under-reporting-calorie-intake-tell-us-how-much-you-really-eat
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 10, 2017, 02:25:10 PM
http://www.thedrive.com/opinion/7324/the-way-we-talk-about-autonomy-is-a-lie-and-thats-dangerous

Interesting article, comment below this article also mentions google self-driving test cars have a massive computer server in the boot to handle the massive amounts of data their system requires,  and that is just for very restricted area use, and data will need continual updating.

Another point is does each LIDAR have its own unique frequency to prevent other vehicles picking up stray or reflected or direct pulses from other cars ? Same with vehicle to vehicle radio comms, how does that work with vehicles closely packed together, and the bandwidth required.  A telling thing in article is that no progress has been made even in USA on this, no infrastructure exists.

Extract from comment on article.......

Good article,  but it ignores one thing about the current "autonomous" cars operated by Google et al: These cars essentially have a server farm in their trunk that stores a 3D map of the entire city they are operating in.  Any changes to the city's roads require re-scanning and update of this 3D map.  This is completely impractical for widespread use.  In order for an autonomous car to be feasible for widespread use, it must be able to operate on much less pre-populated data.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on November 10, 2017, 02:54:50 PM
Women do 7 hours a week less housework than they used to do

Shocking! How much more housework do me do?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on November 10, 2017, 03:45:32 PM
I do 168 hours housework every week..
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest1372 on November 10, 2017, 03:52:07 PM
Any changes to the city's roads require re-scanning and update of this 3D map.  This is completely impractical for widespread use.
Presumably this is accomplished exactly the same way existing 2D sat nav paths are updated and refined by sampling the collective data fed back by the users, of course it helps the first one down any route to have seeded data just as the test vehicles are collecting, processing and re-using.  The strengths of autonomy is that knowledge will be shared - as soon as a couple of vehicles have gone by the skip on the road, every other car will be expecting it; the pedestrian hidden by the bus will be made known to vehicles behind by the first one to pass them.
--
TG
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 10, 2017, 04:05:15 PM
I don't know about LIDAR but sophisticated RADAR uses a system whereby the pulse time and duration is random generated and the receiver knows what signal it is looking for. RADAR also uses narrow band discrete frequencies, but interference can occur, especially in busy coastal waters like the Channel and Solent. Something will have to be engineered to allow mass use of LIDAR.
The size of the computers used at present is down to them being four wheel laboratories and the eventual production vehicles will have much smaller systems installed. The size of chips is falling at a tremendous rate and every year you can squeeze more onto a chip than you did last year. That also dramatically reduces the energy requirements of the computer.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on November 10, 2017, 08:04:42 PM
Any changes to the city's roads require re-scanning and update of this 3D map.  This is completely impractical for widespread use.
Presumably this is accomplished exactly the same way existing 2D sat nav paths are updated and refined by sampling the collective data fed back by the users, of course it helps the first one down any route to have seeded data just as the test vehicles are collecting, processing and re-using.  The strengths of autonomy is that knowledge will be shared - as soon as a couple of vehicles have gone by the skip on the road, every other car will be expecting it; the pedestrian hidden by the bus will be made known to vehicles behind by the first one to pass them.
--


TG

So stupendous quantities of data will be fed in real time to a central processing point and redistrubuted to autonamous vehicles in real time. In a country where rural areas have limited signal access and areas like tunnels, between mountains where there is none--- this is all going to be very challengeing . The current mobile network will look like a child's toy.. And when one local feed goes down, - which it will - what happens? All fall down?

You are talking invetsments which make mobile telecomms look like  a child's plaything.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 10, 2017, 08:30:54 PM
From everything I have read, cars will communicate with each other via WiFi. The only time they will communicate with a central hub will be for downloading data and uploading updates.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 10, 2017, 09:02:34 PM
Any changes to the city's roads require re-scanning and update of this 3D map.  This is completely impractical for widespread use.
Presumably this is accomplished exactly the same way existing 2D sat nav paths are updated and refined by sampling the collective data fed back by the users, of course it helps the first one down any route to have seeded data just as the test vehicles are collecting, processing and re-using.  The strengths of autonomy is that knowledge will be shared - as soon as a couple of vehicles have gone by the skip on the road, every other car will be expecting it; the pedestrian hidden by the bus will be made known to vehicles behind by the first one to pass them.
--


TG

So stupendous quantities of data will be fed in real time to a central processing point and redistrubuted to autonamous vehicles in real time. In a country where rural areas have limited signal access and areas like tunnels, between mountains where there is none--- this is all going to be very challengeing . The current mobile network will look like a child's toy.. And when one local feed goes down, - which it will - what happens? All fall down?

You are talking investments which make mobile telecomms look like  a child's plaything.

+100

As usual there is loads of hype and expectation around at the moment,  the devil is in the detail - no infrastructure is available at the moment to talk between vehicles let alone allow the sort of thing TG suggests.  Those 3D road layout files are huge, its like a 3D video but with global locations and distances data included.

Anyone with a satnav has had dropouts around tall buildings,  and mobile phone apps are probably worse, including around mountains and in rural areas.

Self-driving vehicles,  a solution looking for a problem to solve,  1 death every 100,000,000 miles of 'human driving'  is a hard act to follow, chances are the control system will be programmed to protect occupants rather than pedestrians, so we are gonna need continuous armco along all our roads to shield the pavement. Most autonomous vehicle crunches so far (and there have been more than a few, in which the self driving vehicle is never to blame according to google) have been low speed affairs with more damage to pride of google than to vehicle,  but a crash at highway speed is another thing all together.  I would bet good money that the sensor system on these vehicles will have a hard time seeing potholes,  and they can cause major crashes.  I also bet that the sensors can't differentiate between a paper or plastic bag blowing in the road and a real obstacle,  something humans do without thinking.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 11, 2017, 09:50:06 AM
There were 1732 deaths on UK roads in 2016. If you can reduce that by 90% (the number of accidents caused by human error), you save 1558 lives.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 11, 2017, 10:05:29 AM
There were 1732 deaths on UK roads in 2016. If you can reduce that by 90% (the number of accidents caused by human error), you save 1558 lives.

Not if you replace those 'supposed' human errors and more by computer, software and sensor error.  It is pure supposition and conjecture at present to assume autonomous cars will be safer than Human drivers, there is no real data,  just a few highly supervised vehicles trundling around with no other auto cars to interfere with them.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/when-it-comes-to-safety-autonomous-cars-are-still-teen-drivers1/

Only time will tell,  and that time is certainly not now, that time will be in 40 years time when autonomous cars are more common on the roads.  Google, Uber et tal have been quick to blame humans for accidents up to now, but in certain cases when these companies swore that a human was in charge at the time some employees have spoken out to refute the claims and confirmed it was the auto vehicles fault.   We need honesty from these companies,  but corporate greed and honesty have never been comfortable bed-fellows in cut-throat business world.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest5079 on November 11, 2017, 11:39:05 AM
One way to save lives and the drinks industry is the reason it's not done in this country is make it NO alcohol in the blood. As some Scandinavian countries have done. Enforce the mobile telephone legislation and tighten up on the appalling driving standards of some.
Before you all shout foul, go out an pick up the pieces after an RTA, then shout foul if you still think this is draconian.
I suppose an EV can't ever be accused of drunk driving.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 11, 2017, 12:20:44 PM
One way to save lives and the drinks industry is the reason it's not done in this country is make it NO alcohol in the blood. As some Scandinavian countries have done. Enforce the mobile telephone legislation and tighten up on the appalling driving standards of some.
Before you all shout foul, go out an pick up the pieces after an RTA, then shout foul if you still think this is draconian.
I suppose an EV can't ever be accused of drunk driving.

I agree entirely about zero tolerance on blood alcohol,  I would also be very hard on any driver involved in fatal accident due to distraction by phone use in car - they would be charged with manslaughter and expect a sentence of 20 years minimum,  they have killed someone by their stupid selfish actions just as surely as if they had stabbed or shot them.

EV may have foreign things in its circuitry because it has been hacked / infected with a virus,  so maybe any EV involved in a shunt needs to have a virus check LOL
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on November 11, 2017, 02:24:45 PM
One way to save lives and the drinks industry is the reason it's not done in this country is make it NO alcohol in the blood. As some Scandinavian countries have done. Enforce the mobile telephone legislation and tighten up on the appalling driving standards of some.
Before you all shout foul, go out an pick up the pieces after an RTA, then shout foul if you still think this is draconian.
I suppose an EV can't ever be accused of drunk driving.

My solution for driving whilst on the mobile is simple: confiscate the phone and destroy the sim card. The resulting aggro for the offender trying to put their phone together again  (Yes I know many do back up.. but I suspect a minority) might have a significant deterrent effect..
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 11, 2017, 03:25:17 PM
Google, Uber et tal have been quick to blame humans for accidents up to now, but in certain cases when these companies swore that a human was in charge at the time some employees have spoken out to refute the claims and confirmed it was the auto vehicles fault.
The discussions for the Electric and Autonomous Vehicles Select committee were particularly enlightening. To be allowed on UK roads the autonomous vehicles must be on an approved list, and to qualify for that list the data must be available from all the vehicle sensors, for accident investigation. The data will also show when the vehicle was being driven by a human and when it was under autonomous control. Another thing to come out of the discussions was that the autonomous mode could only be used on Motorways and Dual Carriageways. And the car would have the final say in when autonomous mode could be selected. So no "Shoot. I'm about to crash. Bang it in autonomous mode".
Obviously, the regulations can be changed when, well in the future, Level 5 vehicles are proven safe and effective.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on November 11, 2017, 11:38:35 PM
Enforce the mobile telephone legislation and tighten up on the appalling driving standards of some.
Before you all shout foul, go out an pick up the pieces after an RTA, then shout foul if you still think this is draconian.

The problem is that the punishment depends upon the outcome, and not the offence.

For the many thousands that routinely get away with speeding, drink driving or mobile use, an unlucky few hundred might get a fine and penalty points, or in the case of drink driving, a ban. One or two out of this number might cause an accident, or even kill someone. They might be vilified and get 10 years in prison, but the initial offence that caused, or contributed to, that terrible outcome is exactly the same offence committed by the hundreds that get fines.

It might sound extreme, but if people thought that drink driving, using a mobile, or even speeding, would result in a prison stretch, how many would risk it?

All a bit off topic, but anything that can reduce the scope for human error, including autonomous vehicles, has to be a good thing. Of course, they would have to be proven to be at least as safe as a human driver, and that should be entirely possible.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 12, 2017, 12:51:25 PM
Tesla Model S Shooting-brake. Looking forward to seeing this finished.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=7&v=Ydb9TW3Bmh8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=7&v=Ydb9TW3Bmh8)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 12, 2017, 03:16:56 PM
One way to save lives and the drinks industry is the reason it's not done in this country is make it NO alcohol in the blood. As some Scandinavian countries have done. Enforce the mobile telephone legislation and tighten up on the appalling driving standards of some.
Before you all shout foul, go out an pick up the pieces after an RTA, then shout foul if you still think this is draconian.
I suppose an EV can't ever be accused of drunk driving.

I'd go along with a reduction to 20 mg which some countries have adopted. This is a quarter of the current legal limit and caters for those borderline cases where a small trace of alcohol is present but not at any dangerous levels. A few years ago (2014 in fact) we were on holiday in the Czech Republic which has, I gather, a zero limit but a sliding scale of penalties and with an element of police discretion.

Certainly our limit is too high. If an average sized man drank 3 pints of low strength beer - like a 3.8% bitter - he would likely squeak under our limit. There is no way he would be safe to drive though.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 12, 2017, 04:50:25 PM
Scotland is 50 mg. I don't even have a drink the evening before a morning drive now. Just not worth it.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 13, 2017, 10:34:54 AM
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/bu_1004_charging_an_electric_vehicle
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/electric_vehicle_ev

These are interesting articles, to allow for battery degradation the batteries are oversized to start with but the depth of charge and discharge are limited, as the battery ages these limits are moved to account for loss of capacity,  the owner therefore thinks the battery is not actually losing capacity as the range may not decrease much,  but more of the battery is being bought into usage, downside is that this extra depth of usage degrades the battery more rapidly.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 13, 2017, 12:30:19 PM
Doesn't really matter how they go about governing the life of battery as long as it works and you get the life they quote. Works for me.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 13, 2017, 03:15:06 PM
Trouble is oversizing the battery adds weight, which means it needs more power to move the vehicle. Bit like carrying 20 gallons of petrol but only having access to 12.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on November 13, 2017, 08:55:52 PM
Trouble is oversizing the battery adds weight, which means it needs more power to move the vehicle. Bit like carrying 20 gallons of petrol but only having access to 12.
Which reminds me of my hybrid Jazz. Only once did I see the battery charge level drop below half. Honda appear to have been very protective of the lead acid hybrid battery used in that vehicle. That's good for longevity - no one here has reported needing a battery replacement - but not so good for fuel efficiency.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on November 13, 2017, 09:09:28 PM
Trouble is oversizing the battery adds weight, which means it needs more power to move the vehicle. Bit like carrying 20 gallons of petrol but only having access to 12.
Which reminds me of my hybrid Jazz. Only once did I see the battery charge level drop below half. Honda appear to have been very protective of the lead acid hybrid battery used in that vehicle. That's good for longevity - no one here has reported needing a battery replacement - but not so good for fuel efficiency.

Toyota hybrids are the same.. only approx 40% of battery capacity is usable to conserve battery life.. When a new battery is £3k that seems an eminently sensible approach..
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 14, 2017, 09:22:42 AM
If anyone doubted the challenges of making new chemistry batteries that actually get through the testing and life proving stage into actual production read this article. even a small degradation in capacity at each charge / discharge cycle can have a big impact on longevity, and hence the viability of the battery in real life. Some of the announced 'major breakthroughs' in battery technology fall down when longer testing is done.

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/better-batteries-charge-forward



Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 17, 2017, 07:48:22 AM
Tesla finally announce its electric truck AND a new sports car.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/nov/17/elon-musk-tesla-electric-truck-sports-car-surprise (https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/nov/17/elon-musk-tesla-electric-truck-sports-car-surprise)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 17, 2017, 08:42:37 AM
Just watched the full release video. Okay, it's all hype, but what amazing vehicles.
The new AWD Tesla Roadster 2+2 does 0 - 60 in 1.9 seconds, 8.9 second quarter mile, top speed 250+, 620 mile range at highway speeds and has an amazing 10,000 Nm of torque. Available 2020.
The artics are out of this world, with a 500 mile range at 60 mph, hauling 80,000 lbs. They use Megachargers, which will give a 400 mile charge in 30 minutes. 1,000,000 mile drivetrain warranty. Available 2019.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 17, 2017, 09:50:45 AM
I forgot to mention. The Artic tractor unit will do 0 - 60 in 5 seconds and hauling 80,000 lbs (max load allowed to be hauled in US) will do 0 - 60 in 20 seconds. And no gears to change. It has a Cd of 0.36.
(https://s1.reutersmedia.net/resources/r/?m=02&d=20171117&t=2&i=1210195009&r=LYNXMPEDAG090&w=1280)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 17, 2017, 09:51:55 AM
The new roadster.
(https://cdn0.tnwcdn.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/2017/11/Tesla-Roadster-back.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 17, 2017, 03:57:24 PM
Tesla finally announce its electric truck AND a new sports car.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/nov/17/elon-musk-tesla-electric-truck-sports-car-surprise (https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/nov/17/elon-musk-tesla-electric-truck-sports-car-surprise)

Musk will go down as one of histories great showmen, how many more rabbits are in his oversized hat.
Reckon he is just trying to keep the spotlight on his company to try to distract from the progress that
Detroit and other 'archaic' vehicle builders are making,  real progress and guess what,  they actually have
the skills to volume build their vehicles,  watch and learn big boy !!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on November 17, 2017, 05:10:22 PM
Musk will go down as one of histories great showmen, how many more rabbits are in his oversized hat.

You know, what we need is a Monorail


Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on November 17, 2017, 05:15:53 PM
Musk deserves a lot of credit for pushing the boundaries, IMHO. Many of his concepts may seem wacky, but some of his plans labelled as loopy years ago are now reality.

It just goes to show how far you can actually get from a standing start, when you have conviction and a big pile of cash.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 17, 2017, 05:47:25 PM
Musk deserves a lot of credit for pushing the boundaries, IMHO. Many of his concepts may seem wacky, but some of his plans labelled as loopy years ago are now reality.

It just goes to show how far you can actually get from a standing start, when you have conviction and a big pile of cash.

A big pile of other people's cash, they may even get a little bit of it back if they are very lucky and sell their shares before the house of cards falls down...........
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 17, 2017, 05:49:33 PM
Musk will go down as one of histories great showmen, how many more rabbits are in his oversized hat.

You know, what we need is a Monorail


Yeah, love the Simpsons, and that episode was typical of the hype that goes on..........
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 17, 2017, 06:05:38 PM
A big pile of other people's cash, they may even get a little bit of it back if they are very lucky and sell their shares before the house of cards falls down...........
Most of Tesla's big investors are smart money men, who make shewed investments and walk away with a profit. Many are big managed funds. Those guys don't risk their money.
Fidelity® Contrafund® is a huge investor in Tesla. They manage a $107 billion fund. No mugs there.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 17, 2017, 06:42:23 PM
I remember when the BBC today programme had five year olds picking shares and 'smart money men' doing the same,  I guess you know what is coming? The kids did better- could have probably done the same with monkies and the money men.  It is a guessing game, and when a bandwagon appears the smart money men fall over themselves to get on it, scared of missing something - but sometimes it is the 'emperors new clothes' and no one will step out of line.  The smart money men should have seen 2007/8 crash coming, but guess what - they were part of it and their gullibility and greed caused it......

Tesla has managed to squeeze a lot of federal and state money as well, but its not their money, and if they lose it they just put taxes up......

Warren Buffet, America's most consistent and successful investor will not buy Tesla shares,  guess what he invested $10Billion in General Motors,  now that is smart.

here is what Buffet said ...

Companies with big capital needs, but low profit potential - don't touch them

He said in his letter to shareholders, "The worst sort of business is one that grows rapidly, requires significant capital to engender the growth, and then earns little or no money."


You could be forgiven for thinking he was talking about Tesla specifically
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 17, 2017, 07:37:13 PM
It's interesting - the whole Tesla thing. I think Culzean has a point. If you want an affordable new EV most people will think "Nissan Leaf" - if you want a used EV, there is a critical mass of used Leafs for sale. If you now want an affordable EV that will do 150 miles plus - well Nissan are there again with the second generation Leaf at vaguely affordable prices. In the meantime there are people who stumped up a £1,000 reservation fee for the Tesla Model 3 nearly 2 years ago now - they are still waiting.

So at least one traditional car maker is in pole position in the EV market.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 17, 2017, 07:55:39 PM
It's interesting - the whole Tesla thing. I think Culzean has a point. If you want an affordable new EV most people will think "Nissan Leaf" - if you want a used EV, there is a critical mass of used Leafs for sale. If you now want an affordable EV that will do 150 miles plus - well Nissan are there again with the second generation Leaf at vaguely affordable prices. In the meantime there are people who stumped up a £1,000 reservation fee for the Tesla Model 3 nearly 2 years ago now - they are still waiting.

So at least one traditional car maker is in pole position in the EV market.

Exactly,  I have significant experience of car industry and it is a high volume low margin business, Tesla will be overtaken soon by traditional car makers who have the resources, infrastructure and skills to make large volumes of cars,  while Tesla will be more like Aston-Martin - producing high margin cars but not many of them - Tesla at present has about $4billion of capital and over $7 billion of debt.  All of the other 'silicon valley' wannabee car makers dropped out of trying to make cars and decided to concentrate on the technology,  only Musk / Tesla left and his position gets more tenuous by the day.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 17, 2017, 10:12:56 PM
while Tesla will be more like Aston-Martin - producing high margin cars but not many of them
So what you are saying is Tesla and Aston Martin are both crap because they both build some of the best cars of their class. Aston Martin spent years pushing the envelope and now Tesla are doing it with EVs.
And today it has been announced that Jaguar are trialling driverless cars in the streets of Coventry. Not that it counts. After all Jaguar is another niche market, selling luxury performance cars.
Tesla sells a lot of cars. The company's Model S was the world's best-selling plug-in electric car in 2015 and 2016. Global sales of the Model S reached 150,000 units in November 2016. In September 2015 the company released its Model X. The Model 3 was released in July 2017. Tesla global sales passed 250,000 units in September 2017. Nissan sold more than 250,000 Leafs worldwide through December 2016, making the Leaf the world's all-time best-selling highway-capable electric car in history. But not all that far ahead of Tesla.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 17, 2017, 10:35:07 PM
I suppose the acid test will be in, say, 10 years time. Who will be selling and producing the most EVs? At some point, or so they keep telling us, it will possible to buy electric cars for the same price as ICE cars. Will Tesla be knocking out millions of supermini sized electric cars at, say, £15,000 in today's money?

My guess is that they won't and that mass market will be dominated by the usual suspects. Tesla may not be as niche as Aston Martin but they may well remain a luxury car brand. A BMW or a Mercedes and not a Ford or a Toyota.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 18, 2017, 10:05:15 AM
while Tesla will be more like Aston-Martin - producing high margin cars but not many of them
Not that it counts. After all Jaguar is another niche market, selling luxury performance cars.
Tesla sells a lot of cars.

Tesla is not even in the same league as JLR,  who produced and sold over 550,000 cars in 2016 (that is more than 1 vehicle a minute 24/7/365),  while Tesla sold just over 70,000 in the same period.  It has taken Tesla from 2003 until nearly end of 2017 (14 years, or about 18,000 cars per year) to produce less than half the number of vehicles JLR produced in just one year,  and as you say JLR is a niche manufacturer of luxury high performance cars.

For  a 'niche' luxury, high end car producer JLR sure shifts a lot of cars - musk and his team should visit their factory to see how the proper car companies do things .....

In 2016 Toyota produced over 10 million vehicles (including trucks and other) which is pretty impressive,   even Honda made nearly 5 million cars (but they were all cars) and 17 million motorcycles in 2016.

As I have said before car making is a cut-throat, high volume low margin business, not a hobby or pastime.  A couple of the companies I worked for made parts for car makers their volumes were huge,  but the profit per part was low - the penalty clause for say BMW Mini were £250,000 per hour if you short shipped them and stopped their production line,  at one time our company had equipment problems and we had a fleet of Transit vans running to Oxford and back like a conveyor belt,  until we could produce enough parts to start filling the HGV lorries again.  Every nut, bolt. rivet and operation is costed down to fractions of a penny, if a supplier is inefficient they can have a full order book,  be running 24/7 and still lose money.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 18, 2017, 10:08:07 AM
Tesla may very well go to the wall. There are many automotive leaders over the years who failed to survive.
Hispano-Suiza (ended up building turbines), Argyll (twice), Jowett, Jensen, Lea-Francis, Armstrong-Siddeley, Bristol and more recently, Lotus.
Then there were all the others who were unable to exist on their own and were absorbed by big manufacturers such as Bentley, Riley, Wolseley et al.
All of these were, and still are, motoring milestones. leaders in innovation in automobile engineering. Just because they failed to survive doesn't mean they are any less worthy. And Tesla, whether they fail or survive, should be treated with the same respect.
If Tesla hadn't come on the scene we would still only have a few 80 mile range Nissan Leafs and Prius and Insight hybrids. Tesla took the EV idea, ran with it, and dragged all the big manufacturers into the 21st Century. I'd like to see them survive, if for no other reason than we need dreamers to push technology and engineering forward, and to shake some life into the fuddy duddys who want to live in the past.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 18, 2017, 10:31:26 AM
I agree with both Jocko and Culzean and they don't agree with each other - how does that work??!!

I think Elon Musk is an innovator - we need people like him to push boundaries and explore what is possible. That said I can't see his company displacing the big boys any time soon - rather he will trail blaze. A bit like James Dyson who isn't, as I understand it, the biggest manufacturer of vacuum cleaners but is a leading innovator leading where others follow.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 18, 2017, 10:54:43 AM
I agree with both Jocko and Culzean and they don't agree with each other - how does that work??!!

You need to draw a Venn diagram with Jocko and me as separate circles and you as a circle overlapping both of our circles LOL

A bit like James Dyson who isn't, as I understand it, the biggest manufacturer of vacuum cleaners but is a leading innovator leading where others follow.

Dyson could not patent the bagless vortex vacuum because it was not his idea - that is why Hoover and Vax et al bought them out so quickly after Dyson - (they had been making most of their money selling vacuum bags to customers - nice little earner, same with inkjet printers and ink, they could afford give the printers away if people had to buy the ink from them).  Vortex had been around since 1920's and he saw it in operation when he was young at a sawmill sucking up sawdust.  It is also used on compressed air systems to remove water droplets from compressed air.

Dyson has large R&D facility in Maidenhead, Berks. and is branching out into all sorts of stuff,  including rumours of an EV - I would concentrate on the tech and keep away from making vehicles - remember what happened to (Sir) Clive Sinclair ? He was an innovator as well,  but his products after computers were deeply flawed.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on November 19, 2017, 11:16:38 AM
Stand by for graphene-based hybrid supercapacitor technology...

500 mile range and 1 minute recharge!

https://electrek.co/2017/11/14/fisker-solid-state-battery-breakthrough-electric-cars/
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 19, 2017, 11:31:07 AM
Technology is moving at a phenomenal rate. I started in the valve era, moved on through transistors, into integrated circuits and ended up working in a chip manufacturing fab for 10 years. The rate of change during my working life was unbelievable. I used to install transistors into the ELDO inertial navigation systems, that cost the same as an E-type Jag. By the 1980's I was buying the same at a pound for 10.
Scientists are currently working on things that we cannot conceive. Technology is always progressing, finding answers to questions and questions for answers.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: MartinJG on November 19, 2017, 01:07:00 PM

Seems to me it is all about energy storage. Currently, this is not commercially viable on a large scale. Crack that nut and we literally jump to a new dimension. But I suspect 'the crack' will be more the result of a slow process of cumulative R&D. Solve that one and the implications are immense as solar energy can then be converted, bottled, stored and distributed. Meanwhile, the EV early adopters are financing R&D. 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 19, 2017, 03:31:54 PM
Stand by for graphene-based hybrid supercapacitor technology...

500 mile range and 1 minute recharge!

https://electrek.co/2017/11/14/fisker-solid-state-battery-breakthrough-electric-cars/

Then why are they using Li-ion in their cars,  this company has a history of making wild claims,  this is just one more.  Trouble is with capacitors compared to batteries is that their voltage drops as they discharge,  batteries store a chemical reaction that is capable of maintaining output voltage until battery is pretty well exhausted  capacitors store electricity directly,  and they have a 'discharge curve' where as they discharge the terminal voltage drops.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 19, 2017, 03:58:07 PM

Seems to me it is all about energy storage. Currently, this is not commercially viable on a large scale. Crack that nut and we literally jump to a new dimension. But I suspect 'the crack' will be more the result of a slow process of cumulative R&D. Solve that one and the implications are immense as solar energy can then be converted, bottled, stored and distributed. Meanwhile, the EV early adopters are financing R&D.

The early EV adopters are being somewhat subsdised by taxpayer and electricity users as a whole.

Attached PDF is a photo I took yesterday of gridwatch dashboard,  if you hover mouse over the meter it brings up the label shown.  What it is saying is that the solar that is deployed in UK at present is making little or no difference to demand at midday (when solar is strongest and you would expect it to replace demand on other sources of electricity, at least for a few hours ) they are seeing no such  evidence - they admit the figure for solar they show on their meter is being  'generous',  and figure shown was just above 3%. 

There is an installed solar PV capacity in UK (as of May 2017) of 12,318 megawatt,  yesterday panels were supposedly generating about 1.4GW,  which as the site states  is an 'overestimate' as they are not seeing any such affect from solar on the grid to lessen demand from other sources.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on November 19, 2017, 04:05:07 PM
capacitors store electricity directly,  and they have a 'discharge curve' where as they discharge the terminal voltage drops.

To be fair, there are ways around that - the important thing is the amount of energy stored, if indeed the technology works at all.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 19, 2017, 04:11:02 PM
Then why are they using Li-ion in their cars,  this company has a history of making wild claims,  this is just one more.  Trouble is with capacitors compared to batteries is that their voltage drops as they discharge,  batteries store a chemical reaction that is capable of maintaining output voltage until battery is pretty well exhausted  capacitors store electricity directly,  and they have a 'discharge curve' where as they discharge the terminal voltage drops.
They are only just patenting the technology. If they get a patent (not automatic), and the technology is developed (they may license the development to a more able third party), we may see a working, saleable product in the not too distant future. Unless something else comes along sooner!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 19, 2017, 04:20:51 PM
The good thing about EVs is it doesn't matter where the electricity comes from. Solar, nuclear, coal, all the same when it comes out of the charger.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 19, 2017, 04:40:14 PM
capacitors store electricity directly,  and they have a 'discharge curve' where as they discharge the terminal voltage drops.

To be fair, there are ways around that - the important thing is the amount of energy stored, if indeed the technology works at all.

Problem with capacitors they don't store anywhere near the power of li-ion batteries, and it leaks away - they can stand many more charge-discharge cycles than li-ion and can be fully charged and discharged without damage, they can absorb and release power very quickly, but they are more complementary to batteries than competing with them. Could maybe be used to capture regenerated energy that will be used again  fairly quickly - trouble is all this is adding extra weight to the EV.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: MartinJG on November 19, 2017, 05:10:27 PM

Seems to me it is all about energy storage. Currently, this is not commercially viable on a large scale. Crack that nut and we literally jump to a new dimension. But I suspect 'the crack' will be more the result of a slow process of cumulative R&D. Solve that one and the implications are immense as solar energy can then be converted, bottled, stored and distributed. Meanwhile, the EV early adopters are financing R&D.

The early EV adopters are being somewhat subsdised by taxpayer and electricity users as a whole.

Attached PDF is a photo I took yesterday of gridwatch dashboard,  if you hover mouse over the meter it brings up the label shown.  What it is saying is that the solar that is deployed in UK at present is making little or no difference to demand at midday (when solar is strongest and you would expect it to replace demand on other sources of electricity, at least for a few hours ) they are seeing no such so evidence - they admit the figure for solar they show on their meter is being  'generous',  and figure shown was just above 3%. 

There is an installed solar PV capacity in UK (as of May 2017) of 12,318 megawatt,  yesterday panels were supposedly generating about 1.4GW,  which as the site states  is an 'overestimate' as they are not seeing any such affect from solar on the grid to lessen demand from other sources.

Yes to subsidies, as with windpower and most forms of 'green' energy. Nice ideas but not really very viable in the UK.

On the solar energy, I was thinking more specifically about countries with abundant sunshine. So, all those useless deserts will suddenly have a commercial use, politics and big money permitting. Somewhat ironic that the oil producers in the middle east for instance could be ushering out the old and ushering in the new. However, terrorism is probably a big problem. Don't think it takes too much effort to blow up acres of solar panels and I think terrorism in its many guises is here to stay. Find a way through that minefield and the technological pitfalls and it seems to me there is huge harvesting potential but the middle east is not the only place blessed with plenty of sunshine. There are miles and miles of 'outback' in Australia which, as things stand, is largely the preserve of wildlife and a few natives and they are reasonably stable apart from when it comes to the Ashes.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 19, 2017, 07:11:01 PM
The US also has huge areas with abundant solar energy. They are already building PV installations on the roofs of supermarkets, warehouses and malls. Walmart is self sufficient in energy, in some areas.
Capacitors do lose there charge over time (as do batteries), but this is dependant on construction and type. I have worked with huge capacitors that kept their charge as long as batteries. And as for the amount of energy they can store, that can be enormous. Again it just depends on size how they are configured. Some hypermilers are already using super capacitors instead of batteries.
And we are talking about entire new technology with Graphene super capacitors, so who knows how good they may end up.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 19, 2017, 07:16:59 PM
bit of info about difference between capacitors and batteries.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/whats_the_role_of_the_supercapacitor
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: MartinJG on November 19, 2017, 07:59:49 PM

Yes, it occurred to me after I posted that the USA is where it is all happening at the moment and they are certainly not short of sunshine. Probably a dash of contrarian thinking. The principle of energy storage is a given but is existing battery technology barking up the wrong tree? No problems with the electric motor but it seems there are considerable physical hurdles to clear and I wonder whether there will be a rethink on how to actually store/generate/access/convert energy into electricity.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 19, 2017, 08:25:03 PM
bit of info about difference between capacitors and batteries.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/whats_the_role_of_the_supercapacitor

Interesting article. It mentions Graphene Electrodes being 15 years away, but the original article was published 7 years ago so perhaps Fischer's patent will see their forecast correct.

Regarding storage, battery technology is almost 370 years old (although it may be even older, as an urn, uncovered in Baghdad, may have been an early battery. Discovered in the 1930s, the urn dated back to sometime between 250 B.C. and A.D. 250. The artefact contained a copper pipe with an iron rod in its centre - which could have served as the battery's electrodes - and had an asphalt cork at the top. Still inside the urn was the residue of an acidic liquid that could possibly have provided the electrolyte element). It is about time science came up with a better way of storing electricity!

And talking of subsidies. I see the oil industry have their hands out hoping for tax changes in this week's budget, to help them out.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: MartinJG on November 19, 2017, 10:34:47 PM

Well there are a lot of high profile vested interests in oil, not least the dollar. Not everyone has an interest in progress.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest5079 on November 20, 2017, 08:57:56 AM
This am on TV was an item from our local station. A Farmer in Cornwall who is well into solar energy is working on electricity storage.  The storage units appeared to be in two ship containers ( may be more but typical Farmer being cagey)  The storage medium? is Vanadium suspended in a liquid. The electrons attach to the Vanadium and when used the Vanadium is reabsorbed into the liquid.
Sorry guys I am not clever with technology so might have missed the point and could well have merely repeated that already posted.
I looked up Vanadium and it appears NOT to be a rare element but is already used in hardening steel.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 20, 2017, 10:27:59 AM
It is a Vanadium redox battery. From what Wiki says, it is okay if you have the space for it.
The thing about this kind of energy storage is you can charge it from overnight, low cost, off peak electricity. Then use it during the day when the prices go up.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanadium_redox_battery (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanadium_redox_battery)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 20, 2017, 01:13:13 PM
Bad news for Tesla on their bid to make cheaper EV for mass market ( model 3 ) on top of even more production delays  -  soon  their cars will be losing taxpayer funded subsidies (when they hit 200,000 milestone, if ever), because this is a fixed subsidy not a % of car value its reduction will have a big effect on a more price sensitive car like model 3 than on their $100K models.

https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/tesla-model-3-production-delay-issue#gs.OV8NMqk

A reality check on how cheap renewable energy can get, when you start adding storage the costs rise and make it less competitive.  India and China are building nuclear power stations at a rapid pace to ensure they have power they need when they need it.  In Germany their production industry segment, which is the basis of their strong economy is fighting the phasing out of coal stations 'because they cannot rely on fickle renewables for their 24/7 needs' and don't want power shortages disrupting their production.

https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/the-truth-about-renewables-and-storage-in-lazards-cost-analysis#gs.2O=5c_4
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest1372 on November 20, 2017, 01:28:27 PM
Bad news for Tesla....  soon  their cars will be losing taxpayer funded subsidies
Do you mean the federal development funding made available to all the US auto makers and also taken up by the likes of Ford, GM etc.?
--
TG
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 20, 2017, 02:08:21 PM
Do you mean the federal development funding made available to all the US auto makers and also taken up by the likes of Ford, GM etc.?
That's certainly what the link alludes to.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 20, 2017, 03:26:21 PM
Bad news for Tesla....  soon  their cars will be losing taxpayer funded subsidies
Do you mean the federal development funding made available to all the US auto makers and also taken up by the likes of Ford, GM etc.?
--
TG

Yes it applies to all EV makers, but only up to the point they sell 200,000 vehicles then it reduces. Will affect all makers, but most are more efficient at producing cars than Tesla,  and if it comes to a price war..................
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on November 21, 2017, 10:22:33 AM
I see the oil industry have their hands out hoping for tax changes in this week's budget, to help them out.

Notice the petrol & diesel prices creeping up in the week of so before the budget? Happens every year, without fail.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on November 21, 2017, 01:04:11 PM
I see the oil industry have their hands out hoping for tax changes in this week's budget, to help them out.

Notice the petrol & diesel prices creeping up in the week of so before the budget? Happens every year, without fail.

Err NO.

Crude oil prices spiked to $64 as Venezuela is reducing production and Saudi want prices to rise (thus reversing policy of pump and pump)..
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 21, 2017, 01:49:35 PM
Petrol prices regularly go up before the budget. It is just that this year part of that increase is justified.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on November 21, 2017, 06:16:35 PM

Err NO.


Is that 'NO. you haven't noticed that', or 'NO, it doesn't happen'?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: VicW on November 21, 2017, 06:48:07 PM
Interesting article from Autoexpress on EV charging. It looks like charging your car at some points could be as nearly as expensive as petrol or diesel. I assume most charging would be done at home if you can park off road.

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-tech/electric-cars/96638/electric-car-charging-in-the-uk-prices-networks-charger-types-and-top?_mout=1&utm_campaign=autoexpress_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 21, 2017, 09:53:02 PM
I think the majority of people with an EV will charge at home. Chargers you have to pay to use will, for most, be a distress purchase. Like buying coffee and a sandwich at the airport! The reason I do not have an EV is because I cannot have a home charger. Once we move to the house an EV will be top of my purchase list, though I doubt my wife will put such a high priority on one.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 22, 2017, 08:53:59 AM
HMRC are not going to take loss of fuel duty lying down, it is a large contributor to treasury coffers, my guess is that because government cannot put price of domestic electricity up without unfairly penalising every user they may either introduce smart meters with special tariff for charging (A chip in the vehicle charging socket may well communicate with a receiver in the charging plug to make a higher tariff for vehicle charging use)  or a charge per mile specifically for EV,  which will by law have to be fitted with GPS trackers or similar (and to hell with the privacy issues). Maybe to even things up they may have to remove fuel duty from petrol, diesel and LPG and go completely over to road pricing.

Apparently meters are now smart enough to know whether they are metering power from 'clean' wind and solar or 'dirty' coal, nuclear and gas,  knowing when an EV is plugged in will be a doddle. 

If you think that cost of running EV is gonna stay low because governments want to save the planet etc. we are having austerity cuts to everything at the moment, they will not give up a rich source of funds like road users.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/26/treasury-tax-electric-cars-vat-fuel-duty
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 22, 2017, 10:06:37 AM
There is no doubt about it, the government will still want their pound of flesh. I think it will have to be done with metering on the charging circuit. If they do it on miles driven, that will hit motorists with their own electricity supply (either PV or wind). It will also hit drivers with a light touch and not those that drive hard all the time. And regenerative braking won't be all that necessary, other than to extend range.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 22, 2017, 10:18:36 AM
I am not sure they will clobber electricity - too complicated to separate out what is used for domestic use given that 90% of EV charging will be done at home. The likely targets will be road pricing and/or vehicle excise duty.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 22, 2017, 10:20:43 AM
I think the majority of people with an EV will charge at home. Chargers you have to pay to use will, for most, be a distress purchase. Like buying coffee and a sandwich at the airport! The reason I do not have an EV is because I cannot have a home charger. Once we move to the house an EV will be top of my purchase list, though I doubt my wife will put such a high priority on one.

Just out of interest Jocko - have you thought about what you will get?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 22, 2017, 10:27:14 AM
There is no doubt about it, the government will still want their pound of flesh. I think it will have to be done with metering on the charging circuit. If they do it on miles driven, that will hit motorists with their own electricity supply (either PV or wind). It will also hit drivers with a light touch and not those that drive hard all the time. And regenerative braking won't be all that necessary, other than to extend range.

Those people with their own power supply will still be using road infrastructure so HMRC may increase VED on leccy vehicles,   fuel duty should help to keep the roads usable - not sure what VED pays for (apparently DVLA have lost about £400 million in revenue since tax disc was abolished,  and that includes the 'savings' they were gonna make by getting rid of discs LOL),  but council tax pays for roughly 25% of road repairs locally (in theory,  but does not seem to cover repairing potholes,   When income is cut the government and local councils always seem to cut the most obvious things ( like road repairs and cleaning road signs etc.) so that people will notice them more. 

https://news.sky.com/story/wrong-turn-car-tax-disc-abolition-costly-as-evasion-trebles-11128854

Governments are still capable of stupid use of taxpayers money even in times of austerity .......

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2101000/MPs-spend-400k-taxpayers-money-12-fig-trees-offices.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2342045/120billion-money-drain-EVERY-year-The-astonishing-Whitehall-waste-send-British-family-annual-luxury-holiday.html
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 22, 2017, 10:32:27 AM
Governments are still capable of stupid use of taxpayers money even in times of austerity .......
We will probably see a perfect example of that - somehow - after this afternoon's Budget!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest5079 on November 22, 2017, 11:03:34 AM
On the subject of revenue and smart meters for EV charging, whilst slightly off subject in a way relevant. A few years back a neighbour who drove a coach asked if we would be interested in Christmas in Austria. Given the price we jumped at the chance and it was one of the best holidays we have ever had.
Somewhere in Austria, Henry the neighbour filled up with diesel. Off he went to pay. The time ticked on and no Henry and after some time a police car arrived. Eventually Henry came back to tell us that the previous driver had removed the 'black box'. This was the problem. As I understand it this box was mandatory in Austria and other countries maybe. It recorded information about the vehicle etc in order that the Austrian authorities could either charge duty on the vehicle or the fuel.
Now given the huge amount of duty that will be lost if the EV takes off, it would appear the technology is there and well tested.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 22, 2017, 02:10:47 PM
See the government is allocating £540m to support the growth of electric cars, including more charging points. They want to see Britain leading the world in EV and Autonomous technology, and rightly so.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 22, 2017, 04:12:40 PM
See the government is allocating £540m to support the growth of electric cars, including more charging points. They want to see Britain leading the world in EV and Autonomous technology, and rightly so.

Using taxpayer money to install charging points is like using  taxpayers money to build petrol stations, which would never happen.  Electrical power suppliers should fund charging points and then charge market rates to users i.e.. cost of electricity plus cost of installing ( to get payback in a reasonable time) and maintaining infrastructure.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 22, 2017, 05:42:51 PM
See the government is allocating £540m to support the growth of electric cars, including more charging points. They want to see Britain leading the world in EV and Autonomous technology, and rightly so.

Using taxpayer money to install charging points is like using  taxpayers money to build petrol stations, which would never happen.  Electrical power suppliers should fund charging points and then charge market rates to users i.e.. cost of electricity plus cost of installing ( to get payback in a reasonable time) and maintaining infrastructure.

I think the government would say, with some justification, that subsidising charging points all helps towards the removal of polluting petrol and especially diesel vehicles off our roads thus improving health and reducing the burden on the NHS. There is also the issue of climate change.......................
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 22, 2017, 06:16:52 PM
The reason the Chancellor gave was Clean Air. If they can invest heavily in Hinkley Point, to phase out coal, they can help the uptake of EVs.
As an aside, they have just released figures for the Top 10 CO2 producers in Scotland.
http://www.fifetoday.co.uk/news/environment/mossmorran-third-biggest-in-scotland-for-green-house-gases-1-4619216 (http://www.fifetoday.co.uk/news/environment/mossmorran-third-biggest-in-scotland-for-green-house-gases-1-4619216)

As expected, the petrochemical plants come out worst, but it is the Biomass power station at Number 9 that I was concerned about.
And talking about concern - there has not been much said aboutthe suspected Russian nuclear accident! The Institute for Radioprotection and Nuclear Safety (IRSN) said on 9 November it had detected ruthenium-106 in France. It added that the source of contamination could have been an accident at a nuclear facility in either Russia or Kazakhstan.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-42064192 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-42064192)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 22, 2017, 06:19:57 PM
There is also the issue of climate change.......................

The planets climate has been changing since it was formed, Humans can only live in a very narrow band of temperature, what really surprises me is how and why the climate has been so accommodating to us for so long (even though it is only a fleeting millisecond in the history of the Planet).

We cannot stop using oil even if world goes fully electric,  we can only do without oil if we are willing to go without roads, medicines, fertilizers, plastics etc. etc. etc. and all the other stuff we get from oil.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 22, 2017, 09:12:35 PM
On climate change, as a non scientist, I don't feel qualified to express a personal opinion. Let's just say I've looked at both sides of the argument and have opted for the man made climate change option.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 22, 2017, 09:23:51 PM
On climate change, as a non scientist, I don't feel qualified to express a personal opinion. Let's just say I've looked at both sides of the argument and have opted for the man made climate change option.

Science is well known for changing its collective mind on a regular basis, they are adamant on one point until someone comes up with another theory. A lot of money has been made out of carbon taxes, and even more money on the table for other things like EV.  Scientists mostly chase funding, and rarely if ever dare express a view that disagrees with the funding provider.  Soon someone will discover that the suns output affects temperature on earth (it is our only real source of heat), and that suns output fluctuates, also earth rotation axis wobbles every so often and causes changes in climate.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: MartinJG on November 22, 2017, 09:34:47 PM
Culzean

What about the Earth's core? Although it happened a few years ago, one might consider the core to be a sort of big storage heater. In fact,  I am sure I recall reading or hearing talk of tapping the heat by drilling down. Probably the same scientists who were looking for further funding. Or was that a Hollywood movie.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 22, 2017, 10:07:14 PM
You don't have to drill that far down. Deep mining such as some coal mines, gold mines and diamond mines are deep enough to get very hot. I was once taken down Seafield Colliery, under the Firth of Forth, and it was very warm down there. The main shafts went down to 600 metres and the deepest workings were 1000 metres. It closed in 1988 leaving 150 years of coal (they reckoned 60 million tons) untouched.
The deepest mine in the world, AngloGold Ashanti’s Mponeng gold mine, located south-west of Johannesburg in South Africa, is currently the deepest mine in the world. The operating depth at Mponeng mine ranged from between 2.4km to more than 3.9km below the surface. Ongoing expansions have resulted in deeper digging at Mponeng, pushing the record to beyond the four kilometre mark. Air-conditioning equipment is used to cool the mine from 55 °C (131 °F) down to a more tolerable 28 °C (82 °F). The rock face temperature reaches 60 °C (140 °F).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: MartinJG on November 22, 2017, 10:23:27 PM

Yes. I watched an interesting documentary featuring the Anglogold mine you mention. The way things are going we could end up living on something resembling a Swiss Cheese.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 22, 2017, 10:46:33 PM
On climate change, as a non scientist, I don't feel qualified to express a personal opinion. Let's just say I've looked at both sides of the argument and have opted for the man made climate change option.

Science is well known for changing its collective mind on a regular basis, they are adamant on one point until someone comes up with another theory. A lot of money has been made out of carbon taxes, and even more money on the table for other things like EV.  Scientists mostly chase funding, and rarely if ever dare express a view that disagrees with the funding provider.  Soon someone will discover that the suns output affects temperature on earth (it is our only real source of heat), and that suns output fluctuates, also earth rotation axis wobbles every so often and causes changes in climate.

I think this funding argument is a zero sum game. Most climate change sceptics are financed by the fossil fuel industries.

Stephen Hawking and Brian Cox are not in the climate change business but they are pretty sure man made climate change is a fact. I'll take either of them against Nigel Lawson any day on matters of science.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 23, 2017, 08:38:00 AM
Stephen Hawking and Brian Cox are not in the climate change business but they are pretty sure man made climate change is a fact. I'll take either of them against Nigel Lawson any day on matters of science.

Most of us have heard the tale of 'The Emperors New Clothes' where despite the fact the guy was as nekked as the day he was born everyone agreed his new clothes were very good indeed (because they had been told by the makers that stupid people would not be able to see the clothes) - this caries on until a child (who was not in on the plot and did not tell the Emperor what he thought he wanted to hear) blurted out 'but he hasn't go any clothes on' after which everyone had to agree with the child and the whole scam was rumbled. 

https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/the-emperors-new-clothes.html

Co2 theory suited governments,  who could see Dollar signs from all the (easily) levied 'Carbon Taxes' which could swell their coffers without really doing much except to instruct industry to 'reduce your carbon footprint' , as time went on the Global warming / climates change (changed the name when they realised that the last 10 years after 1998 had actually seen a drop in temperature, and they wanted to cover all the bases and convince people that it was not only global warming,  but it was gonna make the climate 'unstable' and basically it could warm up or cool down and they would still appear to be right).  Out of the MMGW / CC theory grew a worldwide movement dedicated to spreading the message (and if they could make a career and governments could make loads of easy money, where was the downside).

The same 'Emperors new clothes' works in all walks of life,  some call it peer pressure, groupthink etc.  but it all boils down to the fact that no-one wants to appear out of line or stupid.  This works extremely well in the 'modern art' world, (surely the biggest scam of all)   with many documents cases of getting kids to splash paint on a canvas,  signing it with a well known artists name and seeing the 'experts' fall over themselves to see the 'meaning' in the splashes of paint, and guess what these people don't even have the honesty to be embarrassed when the fraud is pointed out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink

Stephen Hawkings and Brian Cox may be clever people,  but at the end of the day humans can only work to the limit of present knowledge,  and even people like those can be influenced by peer pressure and groupthink.

The sun only has to sneeze and we catch a cold,  there has been a lot of worry lately about increasing sun activity, solar storms etc. which have the power to take out our precious computers (look out Autonomous vehicles) and electrical supplies (happened in Canada a few years ago).

Ice sheets have actually been increasing lately,  and they reckon any melting due to soot and black particulates (diesel) landing on ice surface and absorbing suns heat.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 23, 2017, 08:40:16 AM
Culzean

What about the Earth's core? Although it happened a few years ago, one might consider the core to be a sort of big storage heater. In fact,  I am sure I recall reading or hearing talk of tapping the heat by drilling down. Probably the same scientists who were looking for further funding. Or was that a Hollywood movie.

it is called geothermal energy,  but when an area is used it has a finite life before it cools due to heat being extracted (normally by water pumped down and back up).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on November 23, 2017, 12:55:09 PM
it is called geothermal energy,  but when an area is used it has a finite life before it cools due to heat being extracted (normally by water pumped down and back up).

Surely that depends where you are, and how deep you go. There must be a point where the extraction rate does not exceed the rate the heat is replenished.

Did you see the video where they were drilling for geothermal in Iceland and hit an underground lava pocket?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 23, 2017, 01:39:42 PM
In a billion years or so you will extract all the heat from the Earth's core.  ;D
http://www.bgs.ac.uk/research/energy/geothermal/ (http://www.bgs.ac.uk/research/energy/geothermal/)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 23, 2017, 02:47:01 PM
Stephen Hawking and Brian Cox are not in the climate change business but they are pretty sure man made climate change is a fact. I'll take either of them against Nigel Lawson any day on matters of science.

Most of us have heard the tale of 'The Emperors New Clothes' where despite the fact the guy was as nekked as the day he was born everyone agreed his new clothes were very good indeed (because they had been told by the makers that stupid people would not be able to see the clothes) - this caries on until a child (who was not in on the plot and did not tell the Emperor what he thought he wanted to hear) blurted out 'but he hasn't go any clothes on' after which everyone had to agree with the child and the whole scam was rumbled. 

https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/the-emperors-new-clothes.html

Co2 theory suited governments,  who could see Dollar signs from all the (easily) levied 'Carbon Taxes' which could swell their coffers without really doing much except to instruct industry to 'reduce your carbon footprint' , as time went on the Global warming / climates change (changed the name when they realised that the last 10 years after 1998 had actually seen a drop in temperature, and they wanted to cover all the bases and convince people that it was not only global warming,  but it was gonna make the climate 'unstable' and basically it could warm up or cool down and they would still appear to be right).  Out of the MMGW / CC theory grew a worldwide movement dedicated to spreading the message (and if they could make a career and governments could make loads of easy money, where was the downside).

The same 'Emperors new clothes' works in all walks of life,  some call it peer pressure, groupthink etc.  but it all boils down to the fact that no-one wants to appear out of line or stupid.  This works extremely well in the 'modern art' world, (surely the biggest scam of all)   with many documents cases of getting kids to splash paint on a canvas,  signing it with a well known artists name and seeing the 'experts' fall over themselves to see the 'meaning' in the splashes of paint, and guess what these people don't even have the honesty to be embarrassed when the fraud is pointed out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink

Stephen Hawkings and Brian Cox may be clever people,  but at the end of the day humans can only work to the limit of present knowledge,  and even people like those can be influenced by peer pressure and groupthink.

The sun only has to sneeze and we catch a cold,  there has been a lot of worry lately about increasing sun activity, solar storms etc. which have the power to take out our precious computers (look out Autonomous vehicles) and electrical supplies (happened in Canada a few years ago).

Ice sheets have actually been increasing lately,  and they reckon any melting due to soot and black particulates (diesel) landing on ice surface and absorbing suns heat.

Just to be clear - you are dismissing as conspiracy theory and rubbish the views of Brian Cox and Stephen Hawking?

The people funding climate change scepticism are very clever people. The American pollster Frank Lunz has advised the Republican Party in the USA and, more recently, the fossil fuel industry. He took his cue from the very successful lobbying of the tobacco industry who fought tooth and nail against government action once a link to cancer and other disease had been established. Lunz took the view that, in the face of convincing evidence, the best approach was to cast a bit of doubt. Get a rogue scientist to publish a paper, pick holes in the methodology and the doubt is established.

Lunz advised the fossil fuel industry himself although he now accepts the science behind climate change. Again the aim is to cast a little doubt. This will enable policy makers to soft pedal on restrictions (in fact not only do they soft pedal but the subsidies to the fossil fuel industries continue unabated).

You mention group think - all people of any persuasion could be said to suffer from group think especially climate change sceptics so I don't think that is particularly relevant here. We are at zero sum again.

But I would throw cognitive dissonance into the mix. Faced with unpalatable facts that might mean uncomfortable change people will try to find anything to enable them to continue to believe that their way of life is OK. We even have some companies like Exxon Mobile funding climate change scepticism when their own scientists told them that climate change was real!

There is little or no doubt amongst the scientific community that man made climate change through the emission of green house gases is a real threat. At some point we have to face up to the fact that the planet has finite resources and a finite capacity to absorb pollution.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 23, 2017, 02:57:40 PM
I would take climate change more seriously if delegates did not hold their conferences in far flung places, stay in posh airconditioned Hotels (more energy guzzling), eat exotic imported food and get there on fossil fuel guzzling jet planes.  I may even respect them if they linked climate change to human overpopulation, but you can't tax people for how many kids they have, no leader has the means or the balls to do that.  So we come back to taxing carbon emissions which is easy-peasey and very lucrative. Nice gravy train, people can make a good living out of being a climate change confirmer, why would you not make the most of it.

Someone from climate change lobby forgot to tell the ice caps they should be melting, they have increased year on year since the low of 2012. This has cast doubt on their entire business (and computer) model, people will be asking for their carbon taxes to be paid back.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamestaylor/2015/05/19/updated-nasa-data-polar-ice-not-receding-after-all/#1a3edac12892
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest5079 on November 23, 2017, 03:23:00 PM
Interesting comment today when the Mayor of London was on about a new clean air act for the 21st Century. Gas that saviour was named as a pollutant.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 23, 2017, 04:18:03 PM
Interesting comment today when the Mayor of London was on about a new clean air act for the 21st Century. Gas that saviour was named as a pollutant.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wants to ban wood burning stoves,  I thought that they were touted not long ago the sustainable carbon neutral answer to a greenies prayers.   Do VW make wood burners,  have they fudged the carbon emissions ??
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 23, 2017, 04:49:53 PM
As I said elsewhere, ninth, out of the top ten CO2 emitters in Scotland, is the Biomass Power plant here in Fife. That's a wood burning stove, isn't it?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 23, 2017, 05:02:45 PM
As I said elsewhere, ninth, out of the top ten CO2 emitters in Scotland, is the Biomass Power plant here in Fife. That's a wood burning stove, isn't it?

Yes it sure is,  but touted as sustainable by greens because new growth of wood supposed to gobble up the carbon released when you burn the wood,  but when wood chips are sourced from Canada or elsewhere and transported on oil burning lorries to ports, then loaded onto oil powered ships and transported across thousands of miles of ocean to be loaded onto yet more lorries the theory begins to look a bit thin......... Oh well back to the drawing board.....  (probably takes as much energy to transport the stuff as you get back,  but it looks good to politicians who crow about such stuff but understand jack sh!te about most things).

Problem is us humans are energy hungry creatures,  its just our nature.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 23, 2017, 05:46:20 PM
The biomass burnt here in Fife comes from 90% recovered timber, diverted from landfill, and the virgin timber is chipped locally from logs supplied from a number of Forestry Commission Scotland sustainable managed forests.
http://www.rwe.com/web/cms/en/429434/rwe-generation-se/fuels/location-overview/uk/markinch-chp-biomass-plant/ (http://www.rwe.com/web/cms/en/429434/rwe-generation-se/fuels/location-overview/uk/markinch-chp-biomass-plant/)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on November 23, 2017, 07:01:55 PM
If politicians were serious about man made climate change, they would ban flying for holidays..
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest4871 on November 23, 2017, 07:24:57 PM

Yes it sure is,  but touted as sustainable by greens because new growth of wood supposed to gobble up the carbon released when you burn the wood,  but when wood chips are sourced from Canada or elsewhere and transported on oil burning lorries to ports, then loaded onto oil powered ships and transported across thousands of miles of ocean to be loaded onto yet more lorries the theory begins to look a bit thin......... Oh well back to the drawing board.....  (probably takes as much energy to transport the stuff as you get back,  but it looks good to politicians who crow about such stuff but understand jack sh!te about most things).


Yes, it's a bit like washing food packaging (in hot water) before you put it in the recycling bin.......... Where's the benefit it that?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 24, 2017, 01:53:22 PM
I would take climate change more seriously if delegates did not hold their conferences in far flung places, stay in posh airconditioned Hotels (more energy guzzling), eat exotic imported food and get there on fossil fuel guzzling jet planes.  I may even respect them if they linked climate change to human overpopulation, but you can't tax people for how many kids they have, no leader has the means or the balls to do that.  So we come back to taxing carbon emissions which is easy-peasey and very lucrative. Nice gravy train, people can make a good living out of being a climate change confirmer, why would you not make the most of it.

Someone from climate change lobby forgot to tell the ice caps they should be melting, they have increased year on year since the low of 2012. This has cast doubt on their entire business (and computer) model, people will be asking for their carbon taxes to be paid back.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamestaylor/2015/05/19/updated-nasa-data-polar-ice-not-receding-after-all/#1a3edac12892

Actually the point you make about swanning round the world in planes is a fair one. It's why Professor Kevin Anderson of the Tyndall Centre hasn't flown since 2004. He accepts he can't advocate change if he isn't prepared to change himself. Anderson is an interesting character - an engineer who designed oil platforms until he saw the error of his ways!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest1372 on November 24, 2017, 06:37:30 PM
Someone from climate change lobby forgot to tell the ice caps they should be melting, they have increased year on year since the low of 2012. This has cast doubt on their entire business (and computer) model, people will be asking for their carbon taxes to be paid back.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamestaylor/2015/05/19/updated-nasa-data-polar-ice-not-receding-after-all/#1a3edac12892
Statistics are great when you compare one extreme point against a new single data point especially when quoting a random guy with these credentials*, perhaps a graph might help.  The grey area is the median average from 1981-2010, the 2012 extreme low is dotted, the last 5 years are highlighted.  You'll note that the two lines for 2016 & 2017 don't look that great compared to the extreme and the average; 2016 ends up below the extreme and 2017 is headed that way.  But hey maybe Trump will get his way, sorry the lobbyists way and eliminate their funding, then we can rely on the guy you quoted.
(http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/files/2017/11/asina_N_iqr_timeseries.png)
--
TG

Source:
The National Snow and Ice Data Center (http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/) at The University of Colorado Boulder with partial support from NASA.

* James Taylor, CONTRIBUTOR  I am president of the Spark of Freedom Foundation.
Opinions expressed by Forbes Contributors are their own
I have presented environmental analysis on....  Fox News Channel, and several national radio programs

Forbes Runs Misleading Article on Climate Change (https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:n6omqHnOk30J:https://theballastonline.com/2017/01/03/fake-news-endures-in-2017/+&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk)
The Spark of Freedom Foundation has a stated goal of pushing information and policy favoring nuclear, hydro, and natural gas power. They also have an implicit goal of debunking climate change. The same author has articles on Forbes with the tired argument that cold winters disprove climate change.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 24, 2017, 07:35:47 PM
http://www.climatedepot.com/2016/07/20/global-warming-expedition-stopped-in-its-tracks-by-arctic-sea-ice/

well this was an embarrassment for a team that went to arctic to show how little ice there was,.................
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 25, 2017, 12:37:12 PM
Back to cars lol!

I must have too much time on my hands because I have been mulling over changing my car for some time now. I think I have finally turned against Electric Cars until they get the range and charging infrastructure sorted. As a one car family we need something that is capable of doing all our motoring. One off holidays and I would have hired an ICE car with the savings I made on fuel and road tax but these aren't the problem.

It's these mid distance trips. For some time I'd been logging, on a fairly rough basis, my daily mileage. I went right through to September when I encountered a 140 mile round trip that didn't have a single EV charge station en route. Last week we visited some friends who have moved to just inside North Wales. 76 mile return trip and dodgy in a short range EV.

Conclusion? If it's your only car, now is probably not the time to go EV. If it's your second car - ideal. The situation will look different in the next 2 years or so.

I haven't had a brand new car for many many years. I know it's a waste of money but I can't get the image of a shiny red 67 plate Jazz EX out of my mind!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 25, 2017, 04:45:50 PM
Watched the latest edition of Fully Charged and he was talking about the Tesla announcements on their truck and roadster. What the EV experts are reading into the 200 kW battery for the roadster is that Tesla is about to make a jump forward in energy density. They reckon that there is no way you could install a 200 kW battery of current energy density in such a small car.
They also figure that Tesla is about to reduce battery prices dramatically. The 1 MW battery that is fitted to the truck would have to be produced for $100/kW to allow the planned price of $150,000 for the tractor unit. Current battery prices are $200 - $400 per kW.
Now, before culzean has apoplexy, I know that this could all be pie in the sky, and until we see the vehicles for sale with the spec and prices quoted, they could just be figments of Elon Musk's imagination. But those in the EV design and manufacture are excited by the Tesla announcement. So perhaps in two years, Pete, you will get a car with the range you (we all) need.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on November 25, 2017, 08:37:38 PM
I haven't watched any FC for a week or two, so thanks for the reminder Jocko.

Also, thanks for reminding me that I don't use the word 'apoplectic' nearly enough these days!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest1372 on November 25, 2017, 10:17:51 PM
http://www.climatedepot.com/2016/07/20/global-warming-expedition-stopped-in-its-tracks-by-arctic-sea-ice/
It would be better if you quoted genuine sources rather than clickbait from one man band lobbyists, this type of thing harms your credibility.
--
TG

ClimateDepot.com....  has received funding from ExxonMobil, Chevron. 
Marc Morano, Media Matters “Climate Misinformer of the Year”....  began his career with Rush Limbaugh.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 26, 2017, 10:18:12 AM
http://www.climatedepot.com/2016/07/20/global-warming-expedition-stopped-in-its-tracks-by-arctic-sea-ice/
It would be better if you quoted genuine sources rather than clickbait from one man band lobbyists, this type of thing harms your credibility.
--
TG

ClimateDepot.com....  has received funding from ExxonMobil, Chevron. 
Marc Morano, Media Matters “Climate Misinformer of the Year”....  began his career with Rush Limbaugh.

And other scientists receive money from the climate change lobby and governments who collect carbon taxes,  and only they will tell you the real truth... it's a bit like expecting the BBC to give you real truths when they are visibly controlled by the Liberal elite - they are funded by licence payer but their output (especially news and current affairs) has a distinct liberal tinge to it.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 26, 2017, 10:44:50 AM
This conspiracy theorising gets us nowhere. Where did the meeting take place to make up a phony science? Who was there? This, as I've said before, puts us in zero sum territory - you point the finger at governments wanting to invent new ways to tax us - I point the finger at Exxon Mobile and other companies who fund climate change scepticism.

Not all governments want to tax more - governments of the centre right generally prefer low tax low spending regimes so I don't see the Conservative Party attending meetings to make up carbon taxes and absolutely not the Republican Party in the USA.

Even Climate Change sceptic Matt Ridley (business interests in coal and fracking equipment) accepts that methane and CO2 are greenhouse gases - why? Because they are.

Scientists from other areas have examined the science and found it soundly based. There really is very little doubt about it.

But people continued to deny the science behind cigarettes causing cancer - some still do. It's uncomfortable to accept that change in behaviour is necessary.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 26, 2017, 11:11:26 AM
I have witness the weather changing during my 70 years of life on the planet, and from my observations the climate is definitely changing. The summers are getting wetter and the winters are getting warmer. As a youth we would get several falls of snow, here on the Fife coast, that lay for a week or two at a time. Now the one or two falls per winter are gone by lunch time.
Whether it is man made change or natural, I cannot voice an educated opinion, but it seems rather quick compared to other changes in climate over the past 1,000 years or so.
So, personally, I believe man is changing the Earth's climate, and not for the better.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 26, 2017, 11:28:15 AM
This conspiracy theorising gets us nowhere. Where did the meeting take place to make up a phony science? Who was there? This, as I've said before, puts us in zero sum territory - you point the finger at governments wanting to invent new ways to tax us - I point the finger at Exxon Mobile and other companies who fund climate change scepticism.

Not all governments want to tax more - governments of the centre right generally prefer low tax low spending regimes so I don't see the Conservative Party attending meetings to make up carbon taxes and absolutely not the Republican Party in the USA.

Even Climate Change sceptic Matt Ridley (business interests in coal and fracking equipment) accepts that methane and CO2 are greenhouse gases - why? Because they are.

Scientists from other areas have examined the science and found it soundly based. There really is very little doubt about it.

But people continued to deny the science behind cigarettes causing cancer - some still do. It's uncomfortable to accept that change in behaviour is necessary.


Climate or carbon tax is not like other taxes which are seen 'as greedy wasteful governments grabbing more money', they are seen as money given to caring governments to save the planet.

Governments  knew about Diesel and asbestos problems a long, long time ago but never instigated and changes until loads of people had died from asbestos related problems, similarly they stuck with Diesel until the bitter end where the VW cover up exposed in USA mad it impossible for them to maintain the 'clean diesel' myth any longer. Governments knew about smoking as well but the tax on tobacco managed to assuage any pangs of conscience they may have had about keeping it quiet.

Governments lied to us about Iraq, guess I was the only one in our office that spotted Tony B Liar was doing this for reasons other than saving us from Iraqi rockets loaded with nuclear warheads  (UN weapons inspectors tried to warn everyone that there were no WMD in Iraq,  but political expediency overruled common sense) , and the aftermath of that little adventure is the whole middle east / north africa totally de-stabilised and in anarchy and flames for foreseeable future).

Its easy to tell when a politician is lying,  their lips are moving.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 26, 2017, 01:06:16 PM
I agree with you about politicians but this, surely, is a matter of science.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on November 26, 2017, 01:56:09 PM
This conspiracy theorising gets us nowhere. Where did the meeting take place to make up a phony science? Who was there? This, as I've said before, puts us in zero sum territory - you point the finger at governments wanting to invent new ways to tax us - I point the finger at Exxon Mobile and other companies who fund climate change scepticism.

Not all governments want to tax more - governments of the centre right generally prefer low tax low spending regimes so I don't see the Conservative Party attending meetings to make up carbon taxes and absolutely not the Republican Party in the USA.

Even Climate Change sceptic Matt Ridley (business interests in coal and fracking equipment) accepts that methane and CO2 are greenhouse gases - why? Because they are.

Scientists from other areas have examined the science and found it soundly based. There really is very little doubt about it.

But people continued to deny the science behind cigarettes causing cancer - some still do. It's uncomfortable to accept that change in behaviour is necessary.


Climate or carbon tax is not like other taxes which are seen 'as greedy wasteful governments grabbing more money', they are seen as money given to caring governments to save the planet.

Governments  knew about Diesel and asbestos problems a long, long time ago but never instigated and changes until loads of people had died from asbestos related problems, similarly they stuck with Diesel until the bitter end where the VW cover up exposed in USA mad it impossible for them to maintain the 'clean diesel' myth any longer. Governments knew about smoking as well but the tax on tobacco managed to assuage any pangs of conscience they may have had about keeping it quiet.

Governments lied to us about Iraq, guess I was the only one in our office that spotted Tony B Liar was doing this for reasons other than saving us from Iraqi rockets loaded with nuclear warheads  (UN weapons inspectors tried to warn everyone that there were no WMD in Iraq,  but political expediency overruled common sense) , and the aftermath of that little adventure is the whole middle east / north africa totally de-stabilised and in anarchy and flames for foreseeable future).

Its easy to tell when a politician is lying,  their lips are moving.

+1

Where are the Brexit supporters who did any sums except those which showed we would save "£18B" a year by leaving. None of them told us there would be a charge to leave  - latest estimate £40B.

There are lots of people stupid enough to believe what politicians say : reality suggests a healthy dose of scepticism couple with a demand to show the evidence for any claim is far more sensible .

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 26, 2017, 03:05:27 PM
I have witness the weather changing during my 70 years of life on the planet, and from my observations the climate is definitely changing. The summers are getting wetter and the winters are getting warmer. As a youth we would get several falls of snow, here on the Fife coast, that lay for a week or two at a time. Now the one or two falls per winter are gone by lunch time.
Whether it is man made change or natural, I cannot voice an educated opinion, but it seems rather quick compared to other changes in climate over the past 1,000 years or so.
So, personally, I believe man is changing the Earth's climate, and not for the better.

But then when I was at school I can remember the tar on the roads melting in summer,  we used to have fun sitting on the kerb messing around with it. We also had one of the coldest winters on record (1962/3) and another in 1982/3 and 2010/11.   Summers seem to be cooler and winters warmer just lately but that is a short time to judge climate.
More co2 in atmosphere increases plant and algae growth, which absorbs co2.  One decent volcanic eruption puts more  in the atmosphere than we can, and they have been happening since planet formed, and are actually getting less frequent.  From looking at fossils of insects and their huge sizes scientists reckon that when insects were alive earth atmosphere was over 30% oxygen, which would be a problem today because things would spontaneously combust.

Edit by Admin - removed expletive.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 26, 2017, 09:04:50 PM
As with every other motoring forum I have ever visited, eventually any discussion of electric vehicles eventually ends up as a discussion on whether global warming is a manmade occurrence or natural, if it exists at all. But even if fossil fuel burning has nothing to do with harming the environment there is still a great argument for electric vehicles.
During the life of an EV they are no more polluting than conventional vehicles, either in manufacture and or use. If you can live with their currently limited range, and have somewhere to charge your vehicle they are a great option. Maintenance costs are considerably less than for a conventional vehicle. They offer a super smooth automatic transmission (actually no transmissions as such), and I for one think nothing beats an automatic transmission. They are quiet and cause much less pollution in our cities.
Some of you will say, “But I like changing gear”. Sure. We all enjoy the control it gives us, but I have recently had to make a couple of morning rush hour trips into Edinburgh and driving a manual car was a nightmare. A three hour trip was done at an average speed of 25 mph. And half of that three hours was open road with light traffic. Why anyone would chose to use a manual transmission for that sort of journey is beyond me.
Noise, or lack of it, is less of a bonus. Most traffic noise in a city (other than goods vehicles), is tyre noise. I dare say, if you miss your engine noise you could have something piped in via your audio system. A burbling V8 if you wish.
Autonomous vehicles are a different kettle of fish, another step again. There is no need for an autonomous vehicle to be electric. There are dozens of conventional trucks, testing autonomous equipment, currently running in the world. Airliners are all but autonomous at present. So too are much of the worlds merchant fleet. Super tankers have a watch keeping officer and a watch keeping engineer. The engine room is controlled by satellite communication from ashore.
The ideal autonomous vehicle would be a train (no steering, goes where the points are set and has to obey signals), or for a road going vehicle, a tram.
Personally I see electricity as just another power source for a road vehicle. Just as LPG and Biofuels are at present. If EVs become the predominant road vehicles it will be by natural selection (possible influenced by legislation), but it will be a choice.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on November 27, 2017, 03:04:36 PM
I love autos. The only problem with autos is that they go wrong, and when they do, it gets expensive. The semi-auto solenoid operated manual gearboxes are even worse.

Bring on the electric cars, I say. If it can drive itself and I can have a nap, so much the better.  8)

None of them told us there would be a charge to leave  - latest estimate £40B.

Latest I hear is that they have bashed out a deal, and it is going to be kept secret from the public. With a bit of luck, BoJo will get to know... we will all know shortly after.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 27, 2017, 03:11:07 PM
Excellent post Jocko.

Good points about auto transmissions. Because I do so little driving (3,000 ish per annum) and the car is only used 4 times a week tops using the slick manual on the Jazz is not an issue until............

Last week we visited friends in North Wales - on the way back to Warrington we hit rush hour. Stop start traffic for nearly an hour. I was getting mightily peed off with going into neutral, clutch down, back into gear, move short distance, back into neutral etc etc. In my commuting I did a lot of shift work so missed a lot of heavy traffic - if I did a commute at rush hour then I might even consider a CVT!

The electric car excels in this environment. It's not belching out carcinogens and the de facto automatic must make driving a boon. I've had several lifts in a Leaf now and it's a great car - as a second car I'd buy one tomorrow but I am the only driver in our household. Unfortunately there are 2 or 3 trips per year that an EV would struggle with especially with the crap charging network in the UK (Tesla are an honourable exception here).

But I'd still like one!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest1372 on November 27, 2017, 09:48:19 PM
'Royal Dutch Shell has announced it will work with some of the world’s biggest carmakers to offer high-speed charging points for electric vehicles in 10 European countries.  The points to be installed in partnership with Ionity involve high-powered chargers capable of topping-up an electric car in five to eight minutes — up to three times faster than is currently possible.  An average of six fast-charging points will be installed at each of the sites....  Each charging point will have a capacity of 350 kilowatts, compared with today’s industry standard of 50kW.

Shell last month agreed to buy NewMotion, Europe’s largest electric charging points operator with a network of 80,000 sites.'


https://www.ft.com/content/9e879ee6-d121-11e7-b781-794ce08b24dc
--
TG
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest5079 on November 28, 2017, 09:47:55 AM
This am on Radio 4, discussion re space weather forecasting. Of course the question was is it important? I admit my thoughts a well.  It seems it is extremely important. Some years back Canada suffered problems caused by a magnetic pulse in the atmosphere. We experienced one some years back. As I understand it, the Sun is the culprit. Observers of the Sun watch for solar flares and if one is directly pointed at Earth we have a problem. So far it seems we are escaping BUT one of the problems are that these flares cause magnetic pulses and they have the capability to take out satellite navigation. OOPS being a Luddite I think I will stick to my conventional car and a printed map. OR will all the computer gizmos on the Honda be affected. Will driverless cars have a fail safe???
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 28, 2017, 05:32:26 PM
Just watched a YouTube video by a guy who calls his channel EV Opinion. He was musing about the fact that mainstream car makers were still developing new petrol engines and will, clearly, want a return on these. Nissan are no different in this respect than many other car makers. I drove a new Civic last month as a loaner - all new 1.0 litre engine.

I then saw an advert for a 4 year old Nissan Leaf - just under £7,000 - big mileage but still decent battery health. Ideal town car was my immediate thought.

In short I think there is still a fair bit of life left in the ICE. 23 years until we have to go all electric and that's a long time. I've also been mulling over the Mk3 Jazz and it sums it all up for me. Where EVs need to be is £15,000 (ish) for a supermini, 250 miles in the worst possible conditions and easily chargeable on longer trips. I think we are still some way from that.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 01, 2017, 07:08:46 AM
Tesla has its Mega battery up and running in South Australia, well within the 100 days Elon Musk said they would do it by (or it would be free of charge). It uses the same technology used for Tesla cars.
What is important is the fact it is charged from a wind farm, not by solar, which Australia is big on.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-42190358 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-42190358)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on December 01, 2017, 11:07:37 AM
Just on batteries and range I came across an item on google the other day. I'd post a link but can't find it at the moment. The guy has devised a test to reveal the maximum range of the cars in the worst conditions. This involves 90% motorway at 68 mph in low temperatures with the climate control set to 22 degrees (motorway driving being the worst conditions for an EV).

The Nissan Leaf 24 will do 57 miles in these conditions - the Nissan Leaf 30 will do 78 miles.

The guy is on the right lines. Anybody who has followed EV news on YouTube or various forums will see people clad in arctic gear, peering through gaps in a misted windscreen and driving at 50 mph on the motorway.

I want no part of that but, more generally, I find worst case scenarios far more helpful than any official figures on mpg for petrol cars or range for EVs.

Here are my findings for my Mk2 1.4 Ex looking back over records kept on fuelly.com

Urban driving in cold wet conditions and heavyish traffic(max distance 4 miles return) - 35 mpg.
Motorway driving in rainy conditions at 70 mph with some steep gradients - 47 mpg.

I can work with those figures and improve them. The NEDC figures are pure fantasy.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 01, 2017, 01:35:00 PM
Just on batteries and range I came across an item on google the other day. I'd post a link but can't find it at the moment. The guy has devised a test to reveal the maximum range of the cars in the worst conditions. This involves 90% motorway at 68 mph in low temperatures with the climate control set to 22 degrees (motorway driving being the worst conditions for an EV).

The Nissan Leaf 24 will do 57 miles in these conditions - the Nissan Leaf 30 will do 78 miles.

The guy is on the right lines. Anybody who has followed EV news on YouTube or various forums will see people clad in arctic gear, peering through gaps in a misted windscreen and driving at 50 mph on the motorway.

I want no part of that but, more generally, I find worst case scenarios far more helpful than any official figures on mpg for petrol cars or range for EVs.

Here are my findings for my Mk2 1.4 Ex looking back over records kept on fuelly.com

Urban driving in cold wet conditions and heavyish traffic(max distance 4 miles return) - 35 mpg.
Motorway driving in rainy conditions at 70 mph with some steep gradients - 47 mpg.

I can work with those figures and improve them. The NEDC figures are pure fantasy.

You are right, this is the kind of information that should be made more available, not the 'absolute best case scenario' of driving everywhere in bright, warm sunshine at 50mph with no hills.

Nissan claims 155 miles range from 30Kw battery,  so only 50% of that range achieved - that is a massive difference from claimed range.... 

Here is 'piston heads' discussion..  https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=247&t=1656779
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest5079 on December 01, 2017, 03:30:20 PM
Because the RAC and AA were trying it on I finally bought my breakdown insurance off Gem. Yesterday, a magazine dropped through the letter box from GEM. In side is an article on three vehicles. A Renault Zoe, a Mitsubishi Outllander PHEV and a Toyota Prius. Comparisons were done. The writer states that the official NEDC figures give the Zoe with the ZE 40 battery a range of 250 miles on one charge. However Renault  qualify with 186 miles in Summer and 124 miles in Winter.It seems the batteries don't like cold weather. The writer had problems with accessing charging points. One was blocked by motorists who couldn't find anywhere else to park?????????????? One point of issue was the claim that electricity could be bought at 16p KWh. The other two of course are not EV's and the Mitsubishi only had a range of 22miles so on battery alone at £43,000 is a lot of money for a vehicle that still depends on the ICE. They thought it a great vehicle.
The last the Prius was a betweener but it doesn't have electric power alone and at nearly £30000 is a lot of money. Ironically the Zoe which is what started all this was well liked.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on December 01, 2017, 03:45:05 PM
In November I sold my HRV and replaced it with a Toyota Rav4 Hybrid. This has a 2.5 litre petrol engine. It goes hardly anywhere on pure electric, other than far enough off my estate at 0630 that I don't wake anyone up.

I have no illusions as to getting high MPG figures, but it does approach the efficiency of my Diesel HRV in some situations, particularly on my stop start commute into Leeds, involving some motorway driving too.

Bottom line - I am happy I don't drive a diesel anymore and my larger 4x4 replacement is not much more thirsty and runs on slightly cheaper fuel.

There is no EV on the planet that could meet my needs right now.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on December 01, 2017, 08:32:21 PM
I think hybrids have got a bit lost in all the discussion around EVs. For many people they make excellent sense, less tailpipe emissions in heavy traffic or at lights etc but the ability to do decent distances.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on December 01, 2017, 10:19:13 PM
Tesla has its Mega battery up and running in South Australia, well within the 100 days Elon Musk said they would do it by (or it would be free of charge). It uses the same technology used for Tesla cars.
What is important is the fact it is charged from a wind farm, not by solar, which Australia is big on.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-42190358 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-42190358)

They're building a 49MW battery a few miles up the road from me, part of a 200MW system over several sites.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest5079 on December 02, 2017, 11:19:49 AM
I was really surprised at an item in the GEM magazine over hacking into car computer systems.
In 2015 hackers got to a Chrysler Jeep and in the 12 mths Chrysler spent fixing the problem the hackers uprated their attack and got through where Chrysler had not anticipated.  Tesla were hacked by 3 Chinese hackers over 12 miles from the car, Tesla claim to have fixed it. A security expert with IBM discovered he could still access and unlock his old car even after undertaking a full factory reset and wiping all of his personal information from the car's computer, by logging into his smartphone app re enabled all the data and there was nothing the manufacturer could do. The data was eventually erased. Nissan's head of development 'even if a team could engineer an autonomous car to deal with 99% of the sort problematic scenarios that currently flummox them the remaining 1% would be, by their definition, even more complicated and difficult to navigate. Some scenarios, he posits, are so complex that only a human brain will be able to navigate their way through.'
I hope the writer Carlton Boyce will forgive some of my paraphrasing but it is a long article.
So at the end of the day, cars will still need a driver and those that have raised the security problems of keyless entry, it seems are only seeing the beginning of problems with data in car computers whether powered by ICE or Electricity. It seems it doesn't even have to be an autonomous vehicle as car computer hacking is becoming a very big problem.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 02, 2017, 07:00:07 PM
Just watched "Guy Martin v The Robot Car" on Channel 4 catch up. Brilliant. But there again, I enjoy everything he does. He just comes across as a great guy. Worth a watch, if you are so inclined.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 03, 2017, 06:04:16 PM
Just watched "Guy Martin v The Robot Car" on Channel 4 catch up. Brilliant. But there again, I enjoy everything he does. He just comes across as a great guy. Worth a watch, if you are so inclined.

Unfortunately Guy will be remembered as the best rider never to win the TT - he admitted himself that he does not have the attention span for a race that length,  but he has also had some awful bad luck when he was in a position to win that robbed him of victory.  Nowadays he seem to be doing OK as a TV personality..... (which may be a longer career, and less dangerous).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 03, 2017, 06:13:11 PM
I was really surprised at an item in the GEM magazine over hacking into car computer systems.

 It seems it doesn't even have to be an autonomous vehicle as car computer hacking is becoming a very big problem.

Any equipment that runs on software and needs to use internet or phone network (or any wireless system) will never be secure -- it is a fact of life,  it is an arms race between programmers and hackers,  and the hackers always seem to be one step ahead - there is undoubtedly more money to be made from hacking than from programming, so hackers have more incentive to do a good job.

It will be fun to see autonomous vehicles being hacked and driving themselves down to the docks and parking themselves neatly in shipping containers ready to have their memory wiped and shipped abroad LOL - and bank robbers (doing it the old fashioned way LOL) won't even need a getaway driver any more.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on December 03, 2017, 07:49:09 PM
I was really surprised at an item in the GEM magazine over hacking into car computer systems.

 It seems it doesn't even have to be an autonomous vehicle as car computer hacking is becoming a very big problem.

 

It will be fun to see autonomous vehicles being hacked and driving themselves down to the docks and parking themselves neatly in shipping containers ready to have their memory wiped and shipped abroad LOL - and bank robbers (doing it the old fashioned way LOL) won't even need a getaway driver any more.

Now my wife is as technophobe as they come but, sometimes, it takes people from outside the bubble, as it were, to ask the pertinent questions. As she says if you can control your EV from your smart phone then someone else can! The hacking thing is important and answers are not forthcoming. I'm all for progress but questions do need asking.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on December 03, 2017, 08:38:14 PM
If we had autonomous cars, the North Koreans could immobilise a country without launching a rocket of firing a shot.  Given the patent and obvious inability of car makers to make secure cars, it's going to be easy for terrorists to do a lot of damage at little personal risk.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 03, 2017, 09:06:00 PM
If we had autonomous cars, the North Koreans could immobilise a country without launching a rocket of firing a shot.  Given the patent and obvious inability of car makers to make secure cars, it's going to be easy for terrorists to do a lot of damage at little personal risk.

Agreed,  with ever increasing reliance on software, WiFi, internet and cell phones we are sleepwalking into a situation where nothing will be secure.  Everything is accessible to people who do not have our best interests at heart, at the click of a mouse button.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on December 04, 2017, 08:30:35 AM
Everything is accessible to people who do not have our best interests at heart

And not just people, remember Skynet?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on December 04, 2017, 11:55:45 AM
Everything is accessible to people who do not have our best interests at heart

And not just people, remember Skynet?

Arnie is too old now to save us  ;D
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 04, 2017, 12:24:17 PM
http://www.carbuyer.co.uk/tips-and-advice/160649/electric-car-battery-life-explained

Interesting article on EV batteries.

One statement is particularly interesting 'it is a bad idea to keep battery fully charged because the change in battery chemistry damages the battery'.   Article indicates that 50 % charged seems to be the best condition (which may be why the software will only allow 50% of capacity of new battery to be used (never letting battery charge or discharge too much),  gradually allowing more capacity to be used as battery ages to maintain range) - but once more of the capacity is allowed to be accessed there is a downward spiral of capacity.

WTF !  It is like saying of an ICE vehicle 'don't keep your fuel tank more than 50% full as it will damage the tank and reduce capacity'.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on December 04, 2017, 12:39:43 PM
If capacity cannot be used, it is not capacity...

So are makers quoting ranges based on usable capacity or total capacity?  If the latter, they are going to screw consumer expectations with predictable consequences.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 04, 2017, 01:18:35 PM
If capacity cannot be used, it is not capacity...

So are makers quoting ranges based on usable capacity or total capacity?  If the latter, they are going to screw consumer expectations with predictable consequences.

They are quoting range based on usable capacity, on a warm summers day, never going over 50mph and no hills (NEDC figures).

Problem is BEV is carting around a heavier battery than it should to allow for drop in capacity caused by charge / discharge cycles,  once some extra capacity is made available as battery ages (to maintain range), the rate of degradation / loss of capacity increases more rapidly,  the more capacity is used the more the battery degrades in a vicious downward spiral.

Quentin Wilson was on daily politics show today warning politicians not to hype up autonomous cars too much, as in his opinion (he talks to motor industry a lot) level five is 'at least' 20 years away.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 04, 2017, 01:51:25 PM
level five is 'at least' 20 years away.
I watched his piece and I was amazed how "Pro" self driving cars he was! And as for 20 years time. I remember 20 years ago quite clearly. It was only yesterday!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 04, 2017, 02:25:02 PM
Watched the latest episode of Fully Charged and there was some interesting stuff discussed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z61wL27eDRw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z61wL27eDRw)
Norway has now reached a point with EV ownership where it is profitable for businesses to install charging points. So the charging network is expanding very quickly, without government subsidy. Currently, EVs are 46.7% of new car purchases. Diesel cars have fallen from 92% of new cars, to 21%.
They were also talking about the EV sharing scheme that runs in Paris. Autolib has dedicated pick up and drop of charging points. You can either use their App to find the nearest vehicle or pre-book. You can also pre-book a drop of point, so that there is not a car there already, when you arrive. The cars are always charged as you have to plug in to the charger to stop your hire, and if the car is not sufficiently charged it cannot be used and is shown as such on their system.
Another interesting point was the “What3Words” global addressing system. This has been developed to give a discrete three word address to every spot on the earth’s surface. Each 3m x 3m spot has been given a three word reference (words chosen at random from a 40,000 word list). There are 57 trillion of these addresses. Mercedes Benz is using the system, and it will be available on their cars from next year. So instead of putting a postcode into your Sat Nav (or autonomous vehicle) you will just give it a three word command. play.chop.glee finds me.

https://what3words.com/2017/09/mercedes-benz-introduces-worlds-first-car-3-word-address-voice-navigation-system/ (https://what3words.com/2017/09/mercedes-benz-introduces-worlds-first-car-3-word-address-voice-navigation-system/)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on December 04, 2017, 02:49:26 PM
If capacity cannot be used, it is not capacity...

So are makers quoting ranges based on usable capacity or total capacity?  If the latter, they are going to screw consumer expectations with predictable consequences.

In my reading round EVs I gather that Nissan Leaf's do not use all their capacity - there is a built in margin of error - so your 24 kwh Leaf might have 21 useable kwh (stand to be corrected on this but think I'm right).

On top of this Nissan recommend keeping the charge in the 20% to 80% range most of the time. Occasional full charges are not a problem as long as the car is used straight away.

Certainly the claimed 124 miles for the 24 kwh Leaf and the 155 miles for the 30kwh Leaf (based on NEDC figures) are, to all intents and purposes, fantasy not to say fiction. 80 and 110 much more like it and much less than this if you throw in cold wet weather, climate control and normal motorway speeds.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on December 04, 2017, 03:01:31 PM
So system designed so everyone has to learn another address for each location.. That's bound to succeed - in confusing people.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 04, 2017, 03:04:41 PM
It is much simpler than an OS reference, and covers the entire world (including oceans).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on December 04, 2017, 03:30:37 PM
Just seen the first PCP deal on a new 40kwh Leaf. £5,000 down and £295 per month with a £10,000 plus final payment. Whatever else it is it isn't cheap motoring.

Nissan have been very clever. They phased out the old car and left a gap of 6 months before you can buy a new one. There will be a lot of pent up demand.

It looks a nice car though.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 04, 2017, 08:03:05 PM

Norway has now reached a point with EV ownership where it is profitable for businesses to install charging points. So the charging network is expanding very quickly, without government subsidy. Currently, EVs are 46.7% of new car purchases. Diesel cars have fallen from 92% of new cars, to 21%.

By far the largest exports of Norway are oil and gas, everything else is minimal, they will really see a truly massive hole in their economy if people from other countries stop using these products and go EV.  But since when has that stopped a virtue signalling socialist democrat / centre left government from going ahead with a 'lets not just shoot ourselves in the one foot, when we can do both feet' scheme !!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on December 04, 2017, 09:44:12 PM
Just on pricing, the new Leaf is not a cheap car. Nissan still make an awful lot of ICE cars - there's a new, or at least facelifted, Qashqai out for example. Honda are still bringing out new engines like the 1.0 turbo unit in the new Civic. With that investment in the ICE (always remembering that 2040 is the key date here) it would not be in their interest to effectively undercut their own products. I wonder if this is why we are not seeing cars that would directly compete, in terms of purchase price, with an ICE. Nobody is bringing out an EV for the price of a Fiesta for example despite the fact that batteries are said to be cheaper and the mechanicals of an EV are much simpler than that of an ICE.

No doubt that day will come but I do wonder if the big boys will want a gradual switch to EVs rather than a wholesale one.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on December 04, 2017, 09:48:39 PM

Norway has now reached a point with EV ownership where it is profitable for businesses to install charging points. So the charging network is expanding very quickly, without government subsidy. Currently, EVs are 46.7% of new car purchases. Diesel cars have fallen from 92% of new cars, to 21%.

By far the largest exports of Norway are oil and gas, everything else is minimal, they will really see a truly massive hole in their economy if people from other countries stop using these products and go EV.  But since when has that stopped a virtue signalling socialist democrat / centre left government from going ahead with a 'lets not just shoot ourselves in the one foot, when we can do both feet' scheme !!

In the September 2017 elections a coalition government came to power. The centre right not the centre left are in power at the moment. The lefties and the greens are in a minority.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_parliamentary_election,_2017
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 04, 2017, 09:54:17 PM
By far the largest exports of Norway are oil and gas, everything else is minimal, they will really see a truly massive hole in their economy if people from other countries stop using these products and go EV.  But since when has that stopped a virtue signalling socialist democrat / centre left government from going ahead with a 'lets not just shoot ourselves in the one foot, when we can do both feet' scheme !!
Which was pretty much what the Norwegian relating the fact said! Mind you, Norway has been putting their oil revenue into a fund, not spending it on aircraft carriers, nuclear armed subs and aid to India (among many deserving cases!!).
I think the first cheap, Fiesta type EV, will come from an independent. Tesla, Lucid and the like are into luxury cars, but eventually someone (most likely one of the Chinese companies), will start selling a cheap (by EV standards) small car.
I was surprised to see that Waymo (another possible manufacturer) has covered 3.5 Million miles in their autonomous test vehicles.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 04, 2017, 10:45:44 PM
Norway are one of the bad boys of NATO, countries like Poland, Greece and Estonia contribute more. Maybe Norway should spend money on aircraft carriers and nuclear subs instead of EV, what with Norway being so adjacent to Russia.  USA has said it will no longer protect countries who outsource their defence to NATO (USA) and don't contribute enough military spending, which covers most of EU countries.

Waymo need to cover a billion miles or multiple thereof, under all conditions without major accident to prove viability of Autonomous system.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on December 05, 2017, 10:26:52 AM
Just going back to the price of EVs. The Nissan car closest to the Leaf in size is the Pulsar. This is available for £15 k or £185 per month for the base model (offer from Bristol Street Motors). New EVs are nowhere near the same ball park and you have to be pretty dedicated to the green agenda to throw literally shed loads of cash away on something that will depreciate heavily as well.

The other thing is that Nissan and Co might find it hard to scale up production. I can see EVs being a niche purchase for some time - certainly as new - second hand they start to make some sense if you can live with the range.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 05, 2017, 12:46:29 PM
New EVs are nowhere near the same ball park and you have to be pretty dedicated to the green agenda to throw literally shed loads of cash away on something that will depreciate heavily as well.

Even worse when poorer taxpayer subsidise rich Tesla and EV buyers - surely that situation cannot continue.

This is interesting article,,

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/will-electric-vehicles-really-put-an-end-to-gas-cars-2017-11-27

Quote from linked article--

The biggest obstacle for electric vehicles’ wide adoption is their failure to address an actual problem from the driver’s point of view. Electric vehicles have less range, lower residual value, higher cost—and this includes fuel cost—slow charging time, and are adversely impacted by cold or hot weather, among other issues. In 1917, electric vehicles represented 38% of the U.S. car fleet; there is a reason why they are at 1% today. Internal-combustion cars offer a more-viable transportation option.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 06, 2017, 10:07:38 AM
I see that electric black cabs are finally appearing on London's streets. They are considerably more expensive to buy than a conventional black cab, but hopefully will recoup that extra cost.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42221375 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42221375)
Nissan plans to test self driving taxis on the streets of Japan starting in March. Also Japanese robotics maker ZMP is working with a Tokyo taxi operator to develop self-driving taxis for the 2020 Tokyo Olympics.
And Waymo, owned by Google parent company Alphabet, is planning to test autonomous cars with no human safety driver!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-42238112 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-42238112)

As an aside, I dreamt last night, I was crossing Antarctica in a Tesla Model S. I had a team of guys laying the charging cable as we went. They cut a groove in the ice and laid the cable, before back-filling the groove with water. Every time I stopped to make camp they would install a charging socket. The car was kept in a heated bubble each night, to protect the battery.
I wonder if Elon Musk would care to sponsor me to do the trip for real ?!?!?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest5079 on December 06, 2017, 11:26:33 AM
Two questions:   It is stated that EV's are better than ICE powered vehicles as maintenance is less. Surely if you take the ICE out and replace it with the unit that powers an EV the vehicle still has the rest of the moving parts. So how will it last longer?  I am sure Culzean made the point about the modern ICE outlasting the body so why will an EV's body last longer.
The second question is. why is it in all of the arguments about how good, how reliable how much cheaper to run, EV's will be, why does no one ever mention the amount of electricity that is going to be required.
HM Government is involved in building a new Nuclear Power Station at some horrendous cost to the taxpayer and as I understand it Hinckley Point is merely going to make up the shortfall due to the decommissioning of our old power stations. Even with Hinckley Point were are still going to be electricity deficient and that's only for the current needs. Canada is completing a new Hydro system which is merely to cover today' s  requirements. It is all very well to quote China but unlike democracies the Communist Party just takes what it wants. I understand that at the moment all the unwanted ( poor people) are being dispossessed in Bejing so that 'better' housing can be built. Not for the poor because they are all having to return to the provinces. So they will build many EV's and just take what they need to build them and flood the democratic world. If my information is correct, Australia courted the Chinese and did many deals BUT now the Chinese are pulling back from the Australian supplies and whole Townships are suffering.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 06, 2017, 01:27:00 PM
It is all very well to quote China but unlike democracies the Communist Party just takes what it wants. I understand that at the moment all the unwanted ( poor people) are being dispossessed in Bejing so that 'better' housing can be built. Not for the poor because they are all having to return to the provinces. So they will build many EV's and just take what they need to build them and flood the democratic world. If my information is correct, Australia courted the Chinese and did many deals BUT now the Chinese are pulling back from the Australian supplies and whole Townships are suffering.


China is still basically a communist state that has taken on the best bits of capitalism but still keeps the powers of a communist dictatorship.  The west has created a monster by transferring technology to China to get an i-Phone built more cheaply etc. etc.  As auntyneddy says, if Beijing wants to knock down peoples houses where families have lived for generations and built apartments for yuppies,  then that is what they do - if they want to poison whole towns and villages,  well that s what they do as well, flood historic towns and farms to build a dam, easy peasy.  China will build up an EV industry by prohibiting normal cars after a certain date,  again they can do that and anyone who complains will probably quietly disappear - never to be seen again.

North Korea is playing USA and Japan against China at the moment,  but China needs to realise that being a member of UN also carries responsibility to act in the interests of all members, not just their own expansionist agenda.  Probably better for the west to take China to task now rather than let them destabilise the whole region,  a ban on Chinese goods would be a good start as I doubt the west sells much to China,  so China has much more to lose in any trade war - Trump is dead right about bringing companies and jobs back from China to USA and easier loans for American companies to help them do just that. 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 06, 2017, 01:40:33 PM
Oops. Sorry. I thought I had posted in the Electric car thread, not the World Politics thread.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on December 06, 2017, 03:28:02 PM
On providing the power needed for a huge fleet of EVs - well yes, it is certainly an issue. A couple of things spring to mind.

1) I think I'm right in thinking that one of the issues of the current grid is the peaks and troughs of demand. Add in renewables and you get peaks and troughs of at least some of the supply. EVs charging at night, as they mostly would, might flatten out that particular trough.

2) Related to the first, our grid is pretty inflexible - there is talk of a smart grid.

3) There is also some work being done on using EVs as a sort of back up system with them donating power to the grid at times and drawing it from the grid at others. A back of an envelope idea I heard was this - EV comes home late afternoon early evening - it's still got some charge - that goes into the grid and, at night, when people are in bed, it takes power back.

4) Tesla power walls and similar technologies might mean greater ability to store renewable energy.

All very complex - the road to complete EVdom is not exactly straightforward which is why the change will be evolutionary.

One thing that would be a complete disaster would be for the Chinese to build more coal power stations to power their fleet of EVs. If that happens we are absolutely no better off.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest4871 on December 06, 2017, 03:45:17 PM
One thing that would be a complete disaster would be for the Chinese to build more coal power stations to power their fleet of EVs. If that happens we are absolutely no better off.

I am not too sure about nuclear either.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 06, 2017, 03:50:49 PM
There is no doubt about it, charging infrastructure is the biggest hurdle EVs face. If all cars were suddenly replaced with EVs, the supply of electricity would be an issue, but I feel that that won't happen as uptake will be slow and there will be legislation to prevent charging at times of peak usage. Even without legislation, current charger systems use off peak by default. Perhaps, in a time to come, there will be a much bigger difference between prices for peak and off peak electricity. This could reduce unnecessary waste of electricity at peak times (lights that are not required in daytime etc). Also, as low energy lighting and equipment becomes more common place, demand from these quarters won't be so high.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 06, 2017, 03:55:04 PM
I am not too sure about nuclear either.
The more I read about nuclear power the more it worries me. Not just the risk of a nuclear accident but decommissioning costs, always picked up by the tax payer, will bankrupt countries (if they are not already so far in hock as it is).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest1372 on December 06, 2017, 04:09:12 PM
I am not too sure about nuclear either.
The more I read about nuclear power the more it worries me. Not just the risk of a nuclear accident but decommissioning costs, always picked up by the tax payer, will bankrupt countries (if they are not already so far in hock as it is).
It won't only be Hinckley, but Bradwell-B (https://bradwellb.co.uk/) looks like a nailed on certainty by the same French / Chinese group.
--
TG
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on December 06, 2017, 04:54:27 PM
Forgive me if I'm repeating myself here but, in the excitement about EVs, the role of hybrids has taken a bit of a back seat. I was looking at the Yaris Hybrid. It seems to be the ideal town car. Which reckoned that they even beat the official figures in the urban test getting over 100 mpg. They run for short bursts on electric only power, especially on moving off so make a major contribution to reducing pollution at pavement level.

On the motorway - not so good - you are carrying around a battery and an electric motor and Which only squeezed 45 mpg at motorway speeds.

But for me, mostly town with occasional longer trips, ideal.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest5079 on December 07, 2017, 09:04:57 AM
Unfortunately world politics run our lives. We as the man in the street have no control over our destiny other than, in Britain's case change or keep the government of the day at an election. China has such a grip over the rest of the world in trade. EV's will need electricity and Britain has entered into an agreement with China and France to build a nuclear power station with another probable. So to power an EV politics has come into the equation, whether we like it or not.
It is also almost impossible to ascertain what country producte sold under old and well trusted brand names are made in, almost certainly China. My Brother sends me info from Canada, latest one is about Triumph motorcycles. The production of which is shared between Thailand and Britain. So by buying a Triumph motorcycles we would be involved in some form of political issue.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest5079 on December 07, 2017, 09:12:43 AM
Just opened an Email re two gentlemen removing a newish car from outside the owners home. No key needed nor did they need to be anywhere near the owners key.
West Midlands police have recommended the use of a Thatcham type approved anti theft device such as a steering lock. Remember the 70's? I parked my police Metro in a public car park. When I came back went to a white Metro not paying attention and unlocked it. NOT my metro. Oh dear embarrassment. Locked it and tried not to look too obvious. Is this what is going to happen with these latest ideas of key less entry.
Not sure if this is an EV/Autonomous vehicle question or just a general one affecting MK3 models and others with key less entry
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 07, 2017, 09:47:50 AM
Just opened an Email re two gentlemen removing a newish car from outside the owners home. No key needed nor did they need to be anywhere near the owners key.
West Midlands police have recommended the use of a Thatcham type approved anti theft device such as a steering lock. Remember the 70's? I parked my police Metro in a public car park. When I came back went to a white Metro not paying attention and unlocked it. NOT my metro. Oh dear embarrassment. Locked it and tried not to look too obvious. Is this what is going to happen with these latest ideas of key less entry.
Not sure if this is an EV/Autonomous vehicle question or just a general one affecting MK3 models and others with key less entry

Modern cars can either be started and stolen with a key and chip (probably the most secure) via OBD port or if keyless remotely via a couple of electronic boxes.  This I am afraid is the future of vehicles whether ICE, EV or Autonomous.  We have been lured by 'convenience' by all sorts of slick adverts, 'control your home from your phone',  'summon your car via a phone app', - but anything that works on wireless, is connected to phone network or internet is never going to be secure - my first Honda had an infrared remote, much more secure than a wireless one (which can be intercepted and cloned), but not as 'convenient' because you had to point it a area above interior rear view mirror, not convenient enough for many people,  but pretty secure.

Autonomous cars will become magnets for Hackers, as peteo48 rightly says.  I can imagine the car stopping suddenly and the large info screen in the vehicle flashing up a message 'your operating system has been encrypted, to continue your journey you can pay via your debit or credit card the sum of £5,000 via your phone'.

What is convenient for the lawful owner normally turns out to be convenient for people who would also like to posses or make money from the vehicle as well.  The law of unintended consequences strikes again.... (normally a case of designers not thinking things through).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on December 10, 2017, 05:46:51 PM
So, today , when it's cold and power demand is rising, renewable energy contributes a stonking 13% of total demand...
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on December 10, 2017, 06:50:33 PM
So, today , when it's cold and power demand is rising, renewable energy contributes a stonking 13% of total demand...
That's not a bad total considering the conditions. A bit of snow on my solar panels meant they produced precisely zero watt-hours today. The snow slid off the top part of the panels but then piled up on the roof which isn't so slippery so the bottom part of the panels remained covered. However, commercial solar farms shouldn't suffer the same problem if the snow can slide onto the ground below.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 10, 2017, 07:17:49 PM
So, today , when it's cold and power demand is rising, renewable energy contributes a stonking 13% of total demand...
That's not a bad total considering the conditions. A bit of snow on my solar panels meant they produced precisely zero watt-hours today. The snow slid off the top part of the panels but then piled up on the roof which isn't so slippery so the bottom part of the panels remained covered. However, commercial solar farms shouldn't suffer the same problem if the snow can slide onto the ground below.

Miniscule amount of solar today,  it only has to be cloudy let alone snow on panels to severely reduce output.   Icing on wind turbine blades can also be a problem. 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 11, 2017, 09:29:15 AM
So, today , when it's cold and power demand is rising, renewable energy contributes a stonking 13% of total demand...

I am very impressed today, wind just over 8% and solar not even got out of bed yet,  still snoozing while nation energy demand nudges into orange section.  Come on boys,  you need to pull your weight,  Gas, coal and nuclear running flat out and importing electricity from pretty much every neighbouring country...........  my meter will be happy it doesn't have to sort out green electrons from the dirty ones today.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on December 11, 2017, 02:24:39 PM
Invest in Green Energy - and double up by investing in non Green energy to cater for the 50% of the time Green does not work

Policy of muppets.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 11, 2017, 04:13:37 PM
What would you say to a 2, 4 or 5 seater EV, up to 300 km range (22kWh battery), from €14,900? And Swedish to boot. Due on the shelves next year.

https://www.uniti.earth/order/ (https://www.uniti.earth/order/)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 11, 2017, 05:04:19 PM
Invest in Green Energy - and double up by investing in non Green energy to cater for the 50% of the time Green does not work

Policy of muppets.

It is well known in energy industry that for every renewable source it needs 100% backup from reliable source (coal, gas, nuclear)  so what exactly is the point ?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on December 11, 2017, 06:19:44 PM
It is well known in energy industry that for every renewable source it needs 100% backup from reliable source (coal, gas, nuclear)  so what exactly is the point ?

Not every renewable. I will never understand why there isn't more effort put into tidal turbines.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on December 12, 2017, 10:18:04 AM
What would you say to a 2, 4 or 5 seater EV, up to 300 km range (22kWh battery), from €14,900? And Swedish to boot. Due on the shelves next year.

https://www.uniti.earth/order/ (https://www.uniti.earth/order/)




I quote from the ad "Up to 300km range (22kWh battery)"

1km to 25km on a cold day falls within that ad.

Meaningless claptrap.

I quote from the ad " From 14.900€ "

100,000 Euros falls within the ad.

More meaningless claptrap.

Next they will tell us "costs from 0.0001 Euro per Km to run"
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 12, 2017, 10:19:57 AM
It is well known in energy industry that for every renewable source it needs 100% backup from reliable source (coal, gas, nuclear)  so what exactly is the point ?

Not every renewable. I will never understand why there isn't more effort put into tidal turbines.

Trouble is tidal flow has 12.5 hour cycle and peaks move every day, so although tidal power is more predictable than wind and solar it will rarely match daily peaks in power requirements - so then again storage is required,  which puts the cost up - also tidal is expensive to build and maintenance is difficult and expensive - maybe answers the question why there is not more tidal being built - solar and wind are relatively cheap, and in my book the saying about 'you get what you pay for' applies LOL
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 12, 2017, 10:22:18 AM
What would you say to a 2, 4 or 5 seater EV, up to 300 km range (22kWh battery), from €14,900? And Swedish to boot. Due on the shelves next year.

https://www.uniti.earth/order/ (https://www.uniti.earth/order/)




I quote from the ad "Up to 300km range (22kWh battery)"

1km to 25km on a cold day falls within that ad.

Meaningless claptrap.

I quote from the ad " From 14.900€ "

100,000 Euros falls within the ad.

More meaningless claptrap.

Next they will tell us "costs from 0.0001 Euro per Km to run"

'Doing a Tesla' - they are hyping up to get advanced sales - looks like car designed by Ikea + Lego  (wonder if it comes in a kit you have to assemble yourself).  Wonder where you put your shopping?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on December 12, 2017, 10:39:07 AM
Invest in Green Energy - and double up by investing in non Green energy to cater for the 50% of the time Green does not work

Policy of muppets.

It is well known in energy industry that for every renewable source it needs 100% backup from reliable source (coal, gas, nuclear)  so what exactly is the point ?

Because one day there will be no coal, gas or oil.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 12, 2017, 10:53:42 AM
Invest in Green Energy - and double up by investing in non Green energy to cater for the 50% of the time Green does not work

Policy of muppets.

It is well known in energy industry that for every renewable source it needs 100% backup from reliable source (coal, gas, nuclear)  so what exactly is the point ?

Because one day there will be no coal, gas or oil.

There is still loads of fossil fuel,  enough to last humans until overpopulation, disease (we blew antibiotics by giving them to battery farm animals - may not get another chance) and land degradation marks the end of our time on Earth,  about another 100 years   :-X

The Sahara desert used to be lush and green until humans moved in with their domesticated animals and overused / overgrazed the fragile land - that is the future of most of the land on Earth
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on December 12, 2017, 12:33:33 PM
Trouble is tidal flow has 12.5 hour cycle and peaks move every day, so although tidal power is more predictable than wind and solar it will rarely match daily peaks in power requirements

That would only be relevant if you had all your turbines in one spot - tides and tidal flows peak at different times around the UK, and these peaks are spread evenly throughout that 12.5 hour cycle. Additionally, bear in mind that maximum tidal flow occurs at twice the frequency of the tides, so maximum flow occurs effectively at half that period.

There  is an immense amount of energy in tidal flows, and a network of tidal turbines could provide continuous base load electricity with suitable infrastructure - that's exactly where wind and solar fall down.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 12, 2017, 12:53:56 PM
A network of tidal turbines could provide continuous base load electricity with suitable infrastructure.
That is what they are currently doing in Orkney.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 12, 2017, 12:55:36 PM
The Sahara desert used to be lush and green until humans moved in with their domesticated animals and overused / overgrazed the fragile land - that is the future of most of the land on Earth
At least we'll no hae far to go to the beach.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on December 12, 2017, 01:47:10 PM
That is what they are currently doing in Orkney.

I've seen the test rigs up on Eday which feed into the "Surf'n'Turf" project to hydrogen power the internal ferries whilst in dock, it's a small but very impressive demonstration of the various technologies.

The latest floating turbine being tested is really impressive - this single device has been able to reliably produce 7% of Orkney's total electricity needs, and over 25% for short periods.

I still think that tidal power offers the best long term solution, with improved storage technology for peak usage. They are currently building 200MW of battery storage into the grid, 49MW is being built just up the road from me, but I think something more effective will be required in the long term.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest5079 on December 12, 2017, 02:01:59 PM
I am certain I saw on the dreaded box an item re tidal power involving a tower with a collar that rose up and down with the tides. This would not be affected by high  or low tides as it is dependent on the rise and fall of the sea as opposed to tidal flow in harbour entrances. One can only suppose it hit problems with situations when high winds produced too much rise and fall.
As to fossil fuels I am certain many moons ago, it was stated that the UK is sitting on 400 yrs supply of coal. Clean emissions were promised but all seems forgotten as the 'pundits' have moved on to the next brilliant idea to solve the planets energy supplies. It is cheaper to pay countries like the US to rip it out of the ground without any thoughts of reinstatement.
What is terrifying was watching Blue Planet 2 on Beeb. Plastic that wonder product and is now public enemy number one, killing sea creatures at some alarming rate, because homo sapien hasn't got the nouse to make sure he cleans up after himself. Just chuck it down. Yes the world will collapse if we the ones with the brain don't wake up.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on December 12, 2017, 02:24:00 PM
I think whatever your view on fossil fuels versus renewables it makes sense to eek them (fossil fuels) out even if you do think they are the bees knees. Renewables can help with this.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 12, 2017, 03:09:13 PM
I am certain I saw on the dreaded box an item re tidal power involving a tower with a collar that rose up and down with the tides. This would not be affected by high  or low tides as it is dependent on the rise and fall of the sea as opposed to tidal flow in harbour entrances.

I think that is called wavepower rather than tidal power.   Tidal flows result from the moon and the rotation of the Earth (the pull of moons gravity cause a 'hump' of water to travel around the Earth),  wavepower (swell) is the result of wind causing 'ripples' on the surface of oceans.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 12, 2017, 03:59:42 PM
MeyGen, in the Pentland Firth, is the big one here in Scotland.

https://tidalenergytoday.com/tag/meygen/ (https://tidalenergytoday.com/tag/meygen/)

It is a joint effort between Tidal Power Scotland Limited and Scottish Enterprise.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on December 12, 2017, 06:39:04 PM
Power in Scotland is little use in South England # due to transmission losses.. and the potential for tidal flow power in England is rather limited..

# majority of population..and relevant if all vehicles were powered by electricity...
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on December 12, 2017, 07:45:03 PM
This is the 2MW turbine I was talking about earlier

http://www.scotrenewables.com/technology-development/sr2000


Power in Scotland is little use in South England # due to transmission losses.. and the potential for tidal flow power in England is rather limited.

Other countries transmit power over greater distances, it's all about having the right infrastructure to support it, as I said earlier. Here in the UK, we will soon be building a 1400MW, 400 mile electricity interconnector between Peterhead and Norway. Around the South of the UK, there are many potentially significant tidal power (not wave) sites in the Irish Sea, the South West and on the South coast, and there will be many other sites with improved technology.

We may be some time away from a significant contribution from tidal power, but I still think it will be a big part of the future. They estimate that we have 50% of Europe's tidal energy potential around the UK shores.

The main reason everyone has gone big for solar and wind is because the technology is mature, and it's easy and cheap to install capacity. The drawbacks are the obvious intermittent nature, though storage and grid connections over greater distances can solve some of the problems - there has to be wind somewhere.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest1372 on December 12, 2017, 09:34:20 PM
The amount of energy inherent in moving 1m^3 of water 1m along is pretty high compared to wind, the pull on my boat mooring is pretty strong nearly all the time - it's only static very briefly before the tide turns and it's racing past again but the biggest issue with anything in contact with seawater is corrosion and contamination (barnacles!).  Although I'm in favour I fear the local oyster farms would not be happy with a tidal barrage across the river.  My version would involve flooding / draining riverside basins, but that would upset the farmers / landowners.
--
TG
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 12, 2017, 10:08:54 PM
The amount of energy inherent in moving 1m^3 of water 1m along is pretty high compared to wind, the pull on my boat mooring is pretty strong nearly all the time - it's only static very briefly before the tide turns and it's racing past again but the biggest issue with anything in contact with seawater is corrosion and contamination (barnacles!).  Although I'm in favour I fear the local oyster farms would not be happy with a tidal barrage across the river.  My version would involve flooding / draining riverside basins, but that would upset the farmers / landowners.
--
TG

water is about 800 x denser than air -
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 12, 2017, 10:51:37 PM
the biggest issue with anything in contact with seawater is corrosion and contamination (barnacles!).
The units they use up here are free standing, and the turbines just jack up out of the water for servicing.

(http://c.orkney.com/assets/files/1931/openhydro_open_centre_turbine_mike_roper-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 12, 2017, 10:53:29 PM
Top Gear test of the Tesla Model S. Surprised how positive they were about it!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHhZ9jk-DrU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHhZ9jk-DrU)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 15, 2017, 02:16:31 PM

+1

Where are the Brexit supporters who did any sums except those which showed we would save "£18B" a year by leaving. None of them told us there would be a charge to leave  - latest estimate £40B.

There are lots of people stupid enough to believe what politicians say : reality suggests a healthy dose of scepticism couple with a demand to show the evidence for any claim is far more sensible .

a bit off topic, but just got to share this......(we really need a joke of the day thread on this site).

Brexit explained.

Dave Davis is at the golf club returning his locker key when Mr Barnier, the membership secretary sees him.

"Hello Mr Davis", says Mr Barnier. "I'm sorry to hear you are no longer renewing your club membership, if you would like to come to my office we can settle your account”.

"I have settled my bar bill." says Mr Davis.


"Ah yes Mr Davis", says Mr Barnier, "but there are other matters that need settlement.”

In Mr Barniers office -
Mr Davis explains that he has settled his bar bill so wonders what else he can possibly owe the Golf Club?

"Well Mr Davis" begins Mr Barnier, "you did agree to buy one of our Club Jackets”.
"Yes" agrees Mr Davis "I did agree to buy a jacket but I haven't received it yet". "As soon as you supply the jacket I will send you a cheque for the full amount”.

"That will not be possible" explains Mr Barnier. "As you are no longer a club member you will not be entitled to buy one of our jackets"!

"But you still want me to pay for it" exclaims Mr Davis.
"Yes" says Mr Barnier, "That will be £500 for the jacket. There is also your bar bill".
"But I've already settled my bar bill" says Mr Davis. "Yes" says Mr Barnier, "but as you can appreciate, we need to place our orders from the Brewery in advance to ensure our bar is properly stocked". "You regularly used to spend at least £50 a week in the bar so we have placed orders with the brewery accordingly for the coming year. You therefore owe us £2600 for the

year".
"Will you still allow me to have these drinks?" asks Mr Davis. "No of course not Mr Davis". "You are no longer a club member!" says Mr Barnier. "Next is your restaurant bill" continues Mr Barnier. "In the same manner we have to make arrangements in advance with our catering suppliers". "Your average restaurant bill was in the order of £300 a month, so we'll require payment of £3600 for the next year". "I don't suppose you'll be letting me have these meals either" asks Mr Davis. "No, of course not" says an irritated Mr Barnier, "you are no longer a club member!”

"Then of course" Mr Barnier continues, "there are repairs to the clubhouse roof".
"Clubhouse roof" exclaims Mr Davis, "What's that got to do with me?"
"Well it still needs to be repaired and the builders are coming in next week", your share of the bill is £2000”.

"I see" says Mr Davis, "anything else?".
"Now you mention it" says Mr Barnier, "there is Fred the Barman's pension". "We would like you to pay £5 a week towards Fred's pension when he retires next month". "He's not well you know so I doubt we'll need to ask you for payment for longer than about five years, so £1300 should do it”.

"This brings your total bill to £10,000" says Mr Barnier.

"Let me get this straight" says Mr Davis, "you want me to pay £500 for a jacket you won't let me have, £2600 for beverages you won't let me drink and £3600 for food you won't let me eat, all under a roof I won't be allowed under and not served by a bloke who's going to retire next month!”

"Yes, it's all perfectly clear and quite reasonable" says Mr Barnier.

"P off!" says Mr Davis
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 15, 2017, 09:32:16 PM
Tesla posted US$620,000,000 loss for 2017 third quarter. This is on top of first quarter loss of $400,000,000  and second quarter loss of $397,000,000 ....Not bad for a company that does not make many vehicles.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimcollins/2017/10/03/teslas-core-business-is-bleeding-cash-and-the-model-3-is-not-speeding-to-the-rescue/#39af9abc4695

GM and Ford doing well......
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 16, 2017, 11:28:35 AM
Just watched "Fully Charged" first proper review of the new Nissan Leaf V2.0, and it looks excellent. Looks like a Jazz/Civic cross! And the Leaf Nismo hot hatch could be the dogs doo dahs.

Here is the link to the video. Not recommended for "Daily Mail" readers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOJyiKy0MOQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOJyiKy0MOQ)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on December 16, 2017, 12:43:05 PM
Not recommended for "Daily Mail" readers.

 ;D
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 16, 2017, 04:04:55 PM
Nissan Leaf V2.0 Nismo.

(https://blog.caranddriver.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Nissan-Leaf-NISMO-concept-102-1-626x383.jpg)
(https://blog.caranddriver.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Nissan-Leaf-NISMO-concept-104-626x383.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on December 16, 2017, 06:08:21 PM
Good Fully Charged video on the new Leaf Jocko. I have heard that real world range of 200 might be a tad optimistic - it would require careful driving - but I've also heard that no compromise 150 (near zero temps, climate control set to 22 degrees, 70 mph) will be easily do-able. A no compromise 250 likely on the 2019 model.

Done an extra lotto ticket tonight! ;D
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest1372 on December 16, 2017, 06:35:54 PM
That Leaf is a bit Civic front & Prius rear....

Went to a new Lidl today and they have a charging bay sensibly placed in the middle of the car park.  Serves up to 6 bays (3 each side) from 3 outlets.  Sensible not to put it by the door where random cars will block it, plus not against a wall so both sides can reach it.  Just a single Renault Zoe on charge from the ecar (https://ecarclub.co.uk/vehicles/) (Europcar) pay as you go fleet.  Not sure if one type of plug is more popular than others but the different leads had ratings of 43, 46 & 46kW.  That seems to give you a 25% charge during a 30 minute shop.
--
TG
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on December 17, 2017, 10:56:02 AM
It's surprising how many public charging points are popping up, but some of them are in some pretty obscure places.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on December 26, 2017, 12:41:59 PM

Just prodding to see if this thread has any life in it lol.

Excellent video from Aussie Petrol Head John Cadogan. Warning - bad language and insults used liberally. What I like about Cadogan is he is as scathing about Climate Change Deniers as he is about the green campaigners. As he says - man made global warming is there like Mount Everest is there and it's the biggest problem we face. Coal being, in Australia, a massive contributor and he also derides people who think we can have clean coal - we can't.

But he has a real go at Tesla and other electric car buyers who seem to think that EVs are some sort of panacea. An entertaining watch but prepared to be offended if you are either a man made climate change denier OR a green.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on December 26, 2017, 01:03:58 PM
If Tesla made "normal" cars they would be bust > Quality is lousy..
See https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=tesla+reliability

Tesla are doing their best to lose a fortune without Musk sorting out basic issues other car makers have sorted decades ago. Even Renault in their bad period 2003-8 were not as bad..

As far as Climate Change arguments are concerned, 20,000 years ago, where I live was covered in 0.5miles of ice. 15 years ago we had 1 -2 meter snowdrifts in winter outside our house. Now we get 10-20cms if we are lucky. I quite understand man having an impact... if we do get the forecast 2-30 years of Solar Dimming in my lifetime, most Climate Change enthusiasts will end up being hung.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 26, 2017, 03:23:55 PM
If MMGW helps Earth avoid another ice age or even mini-ice age like the one that existed from about 1400 to 1850 then I will be happy.  Hands up all who want UK and northern Europe covered in ice a few hundred feet deep - a glacier ploughing across you garden - No takers ?  that does not surprise me.   The Earth has been warming since about 1850,  maybe it will start to cool down soon and that will please the MMGW disciples.  If we do start another ice age it will take more than a few wind turbines and solar panels to keep us warm and we may even have to start burning coal and oil again - shock-horror.  If our atmosphere did not contain any greenhouse gases the planet would be frozen solid and we would not be here.

As far as Tesla is concerned they should leave making cars to the experts, the cut-throat world of car making is no place for a woolly headed idealist - but like most people like him Musk can waste all the money that gullible investors and states keep throwing at him and will hide the truth until suddenly Tesla files for Chapter 11 and the money has long gone. 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on December 26, 2017, 04:39:48 PM
I don't think anybody disputes that CO2 is necessary to keep the planet from freezing. I don't think anybody disputes that CO2 levels have been higher in the past.

But the current level of man made global warming is exactly that - man made and we have never experienced levels of CO2 like they are today in the history of modern humanity.

The idea of constantly strip mining the earth and setting fire to those products like coal and oil is unsustainable. This stuff will run out. Why not prepare for a future where we don't need to do this? Fossil fuels have served us well but we need to move on.

 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: MartinJG on December 26, 2017, 07:13:52 PM
This stuff will run out. Why not prepare for a future where we don't need to do this? Fossil fuels have served us well but we need to move on.

Not sure it will run out actually. Basic economics suggest that we will use up the fuel that is easy to access (onshore oil for example) and cost effective and I suspect this will go on for a little longer than we might expect. Much of that oil is in the middle east.  A quote from Sheikh Yamani in 2000 puts things in perspective. "Thirty years from now there will be a huge amount of oil - and no buyers. Oil will be left in the ground. The Stone Age came to an end, not because we had a lack of stones, and the oil age will come to an end not because we have a lack of oil." They are already planning for that with the pending/part sale of Aramco, not least, I suspect, to make way for solar energy 'farms' on a grand scale.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 26, 2017, 08:18:06 PM
Saudi Arabia are aggressively trying to swing their economy away from dependence on oil sales. They can see the writing on the wall.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on January 01, 2018, 10:53:39 AM
Comment from Autocar article Nov 2017 - seems that 2018 will be an interesting year for Tesla.

Over the past 12 months, Tesla has been burning money at a rate of about $8,000 a minute (or $480,000 an hour). It is blowing through more than $1 billion a quarter. At this rate Tesla is unlikely to last another 10 months or a year. Tesla will be required to raise at least $2 billion in fresh capital by mid-2018. Is that achieveable? Who knows?

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-04-12/former-gm-vice-chair-trashes-tesla-musk-great-salesman-theyre-doomed-its-going-fail
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 01, 2018, 11:34:41 AM
Elon Musk has announced the Model Y and a Pickup truck as well. Must be hoping the pre-order deposits keep the company afloat!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: MartinJG on January 01, 2018, 12:22:43 PM
Comment from Autocar article Nov 2017 - seems that 2018 will be an interesting year for Tesla.

Over the past 12 months, Tesla has been burning money at a rate of about $8,000 a minute (or $480,000 an hour). It is blowing through more than $1 billion a quarter. At this rate Tesla is unlikely to last another 10 months or a year. Tesla will be required to raise at least $2 billion in fresh capital by mid-2018. Is that achieveable? Who knows?

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-04-12/former-gm-vice-chair-trashes-tesla-musk-great-salesman-theyre-doomed-its-going-fail

I agree with the overall sentiment. Tesla is largely being funded by 'funny money' care of the digital printing presses of the central banks and political idealogical lackeys around the world. Some might even call it a Ponzi Scheme with a wider read across. Who mentioned Twitter/Facebook etc? What is so special about Apple other than the fact that if you like white then you pay for it. Amazon is a bit different but nevertheless, in my view, faces potential logistical problems with a business model that relies on economies of scale and wafer thin margins, so thin in fact there is a risk they might just snap. Back to Tesla. For some reason, I keep thinking of DeLorean Cars back in the bad old days. Can't think why. An example of government intervention subsidies, bureacratic bungling and flunkey economics, the chief beneficiary being Mr DeLorean himself. What a surprise. Even more surprising is the fact that history can be guaranteed to repeat itself one way or another. Let's face it, Tesla is really all about pushing the limits on blanks cheques. Not really a well worn business model. If there is an upside, it is that they have endeavoured to fast forward a technology that will one day be a reality. Question is, if it bites the dust, is there anything of value to the big boys with mass manufacturing/distribution/franchising advantages who must be watching with interest.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 01, 2018, 01:13:47 PM
Tesla has shown people what they want. If they fall, someone (big manufacturer or otherwise), will step in to fill the need.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on January 01, 2018, 01:54:25 PM
Yeah, Tesla has all the hallmarks of a ponzi scheme ala Enron etc. Like a man with more than one credit card who keeps switching the borrowing around to keep card companies happy, juggling all the time, or trying to keep all the plates spinning on their poles. He manages to get state and federal funding and keeps them happy with regular publicity of exiting new things coming along that rely on massive step changes in technology that just are not happening anytime soon.   

Using state funding to keep other investors happy, once one plate falls they all come crashing down - you can bet Musk has enough money spirited away to be OK when chickens come home to roost, but many people including tax payers will be left well out of pocket..
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on January 01, 2018, 02:00:24 PM
Tesla has shown people what they want. If they fall, someone (big manufacturer or otherwise), will step in to fill the need.

Chinese company will buy up,  except their economy going bad too... Chinese people borrowing and spending money they don't have - that was never part of the great party plan - they were supposed to stay poor and work like slaves for the plan to work.........but nobody counted on them having western style aspirations..
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: MartinJG on January 01, 2018, 02:44:29 PM
Tesla has shown people what they want. If they fall, someone (big manufacturer or otherwise), will step in to fill the need.

Chinese company will buy up,  except their economy going bad too... Chinese people borrowing and spending money they don't have - that was never part of the great party plan - they were supposed to stay poor and work like slaves for the plan to work.........but nobody counted on them having western style aspirations..

Yes. China has been the sweat shop of the world. It is now moving up a gear and will begin to dominate technological production in much the same way the Japanese developed. It seems to me that the most valuable part of Tesla could well end up being goodwill in the form of its 'brand value'. The battery technology is still the stumbling block. Meantime, it seems sensible to encourage EV's (especially in urban areas) for one logical reason. To my knowledge, most power stations run at 'tick over' overnight when there is less demand which means they are less efficient and therefore less profitable with much of the potential transferable energy going up in smoke. Hence attempts to get folk to use storage heaters etc. However, as things stand, EV's could conceivably solve this problem in the shorter term with overnight charging which helps to spread the load over 24 hours. Better for all while we continue to rely on conventional power stations.

On the Chinese, I always reckon there are two sides to absolutely everything most notably illustrated with the law of physics and encapsulated in Newton's third law ('for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction'). It seems that opposites play a fundamental part of nature. The imbalance is where many a fortune and failure accrues. The Chinese have proven themselves to be industrious and inherently 'capitalistic' in their pursuits but the flip side of the coin, their Achilles' Heal, is their addiction to gambling.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 01, 2018, 03:22:55 PM
their addiction to gambling.
Not a bad thing in an entrepreneurial economy.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on January 01, 2018, 04:40:40 PM
their addiction to gambling.
Not a bad thing in an entrepreneurial economy.

This is actually China's biggest problem, and may well upset their plans for world domination..

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/24/grey-wall-china-rudong-town-frontline-looming-ageing-crisis
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: MartinJG on January 01, 2018, 05:04:43 PM
their addiction to gambling.
Not a bad thing in an entrepreneurial economy.

True but contradictory nevertheless. I have always regarded it as a voluntary tax. I know of an accountant, who, by all accounts was well regarded and thoroughly professional. He had the bug and lost a lot over time. Odd that someone conversant with numbers should be so vulnerable. Knew he was wrong but just couldn't walk away. Tough for his family though.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest1372 on January 01, 2018, 05:13:32 PM
Chinese people borrowing and spending money they don't have - that was never part of the great party plan - they were supposed to stay poor and work like slaves for the plan to work.........but nobody counted on them having western style aspirations..
That's quite inaccurate, the mid-term plan has been to create a middle class to generate local demand for goods and services and reduce reliance on exports, and to devolve wealth generation and investment to this new middle class.  If you ever work with the Chinese you'll find out it's an incredibly vibrant and positive 'can do' atmosphere, continuous improvement and the speed of design iteration is mind blowing.  The Daily Mail viewpoint of 'they just steal our IP' is just plain wrong.
--
TG
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on January 01, 2018, 05:13:56 PM
Meantime, it seems sensible to encourage EV's (especially in urban areas) for one logical reason. To my knowledge, most power stations run at 'tick over' overnight when there is less demand which means they are less efficient and therefore less profitable with much of the potential transferable energy going up in smoke. Hence attempts to get folk to use storage heaters etc. However, as things stand, EV's could conceivably solve this problem in the shorter term with overnight charging which helps to spread the load over 24 hours. Better for all while we continue to rely on conventional power stations.
The propoportion of the electricity generated by these base load power stations (nuclear and traditional thermal) is steadily shrinking. As I type this it is less than 1/4 of the demand (see http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/ (http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/)). In fact currently wind contributes nearly as much as nuclear so there could be a power surplus during some weather conditions but it can't be relied on. Too much over-night battery charging will also cause problems for the pumped storage hydro schemes which rely on the cheap night-time electricity to fill their reservoirs.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on January 01, 2018, 05:26:25 PM
Chinese people borrowing and spending money they don't have - that was never part of the great party plan - they were supposed to stay poor and work like slaves for the plan to work.........but nobody counted on them having western style aspirations..
That's quite inaccurate, the mid-term plan has been to create a middle class to generate local demand for goods and services and reduce reliance on exports, and to devolve wealth generation and investment to this new middle class.  If you ever work with the Chinese you'll find out it's an incredibly vibrant and positive 'can do' atmosphere, continuous improvement and the speed of design iteration is mind blowing.  The Daily Mail viewpoint of 'they just steal our IP' is just plain wrong.
--
TG

The only way to create a good strong economy is to export as much as you can (goods and services) and import as little as you can,  the UK's current policy of building houses (many materials imported) and encouraging consumers to get into debt only to spend that money on imported goods is a house of cards.  Up until now China has had record growth up to now by cheap labour and few imports,  they have been gifted technology by the west looking for a cheap, low regulation economy - our company had press tools made in China,  nowhere near quality of western press tools either in material or workmanship, but cheap and cheerful - and our engineers visited production plants in China only to be horrified by people sitting on the press beds passing components between tools by hand as the press went up and down (that would be automated in the west),  no guarding or anything like it in sight. 

With Trump in USA bringing factories back from China, the good times are over - from now on it will be a hard slog, and Chinese population is rapidly aging, not a good omen for future growth.

Many economists doubt the veracity of growth figures coming out of China, they are still basically a communist state where everything is tightly controlled - be good to see election results if they ever have any 'free and fair' elections.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: MartinJG on January 01, 2018, 07:54:12 PM
Chinese people borrowing and spending money they don't have - that was never part of the great party plan - they were supposed to stay poor and work like slaves for the plan to work.........but nobody counted on them having western style aspirations..
That's quite inaccurate, the mid-term plan has been to create a middle class to generate local demand for goods and services and reduce reliance on exports, and to devolve wealth generation and investment to this new middle class.  If you ever work with the Chinese you'll find out it's an incredibly vibrant and positive 'can do' atmosphere, continuous improvement and the speed of design iteration is mind blowing.  The Daily Mail viewpoint of 'they just steal our IP' is just plain wrong.
--
TG

The only way to create a good strong economy is to export as much as you can (goods and services) and import as little as you can,  the UK's current policy of building houses (many materials imported) and encouraging consumers to get into debt only to spend that money on imported goods is a house of cards.  Up until now China has had record growth up to now by cheap labour and few imports,  they have been gifted technology by the west looking for a cheap, low regulation economy - our company had press tools made in China,  nowhere near quality of western press tools either in material or workmanship, but cheap and cheerful - and our engineers visited production plants in China only to be horrified by people sitting on the press beds passing components between tools by hand as the press went up and down (that would be automated in the west),  no guarding or anything like it in sight. 

With Trump in USA bringing factories back from China, the good times are over - from now on it will be a hard slog, and Chinese population is rapidly aging, not a good omen for future growth.

Many economists doubt the veracity of growth figures coming out of China, they are still basically a communist state where everything is tightly controlled - be good to see election results if they ever have any 'free and fair' elections.

I am with you there. China is a command economy run by an oligarchy of party officials. Great if the decisions and agendas are genuine, well motivated and reasonable. Not so great if they are not. Caveat Emptor. For me, China seems quite straightforward. The old party faithful (Maoism) have merely hijacked capitalism for their own ends, and those of the people, of course, as long as they behave. Oddly enough, there are clear signs in the west of a similar policy albeit at the other end of the spectrum under the guise of crony capitalism. Either way, it matters little as the game plan is the same. In the words of the Who in their brilliant track,  Won't get fooled again,  'The parting on the left is now parting on the right...Meet the new boss, same as the old boss'. Says it all really! That reminds me, I must try out a few CD's on the Jazz, if I can work out how to use it.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 09, 2018, 06:19:49 AM
Something for everyone on the latest tech news, courtesey of the BBC.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-42614281 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-42614281)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/technology-42599199/ces-2018-first-look-at-futuristic-byton-smart-car (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/technology-42599199/ces-2018-first-look-at-futuristic-byton-smart-car)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 10, 2018, 10:03:39 AM
Just been watching a piece on "Fully Charged", from the Tokyo Motor Show, in Honda's Concept cars.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pi2wrqAlK5Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pi2wrqAlK5Q)
Their Urban EV is to go into production for Europe, in 2019, and is supposedly going to be largely unchanged from the Concept car. I think it looks like a cross between a 205 and an early Golf.  There are only sketchy details on batteries and range, but what was interesting was the statement that from 2025 ALL Honda's car production will be EV or Hybrid.

(https://www.motoringresearch.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/03_Tokyo_Concepts.jpg)

Their sports car looks like the old Toyota 2000 GT.
(https://images.hgmsites.net/hug/honda-sports-ev-concept-2017-tokyo-motor-show_100630279_h.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on January 10, 2018, 10:37:14 AM
It's interesting that, until now, Honda have been keeping their powder dry on the EV scene. I suspect they want to get it dead right before going ahead. Shame there is no indication, yet, as to range.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 10, 2018, 11:18:08 AM
He said 150 miles, for the Urban, was a figure that was mentioned, but if they are not starting to build them until 2019, battery technology could take another leap forward by then.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest4871 on January 10, 2018, 03:28:37 PM
2019! That's less than 12 months time!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on January 10, 2018, 04:26:49 PM
Battery technology has been leaping forward since they started making them (scientists always trying to reduce weight and improve specific energy storage) ... what is needed is a step change in battery chemistry.

Interesting article on economics of BEV (or not).  lots of other interesting articles on the site as well.

http://energypost.eu/15698-2/


Looking at gridwatch it appears solar and wind pretty much stayed in bed today, come on guys you have had a lot of money spent on you,  the least you can do is help the reliables out.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on January 10, 2018, 05:12:21 PM
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2130231-uk-government-subsidises-coal-sector-with-356-million-a-year/

Nice to see coal working for its subsidy then.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on January 10, 2018, 06:31:17 PM
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2130231-uk-government-subsidises-coal-sector-with-356-million-a-year/

Nice to see coal working for its subsidy then.

A lot of coal subsidy is paid by EU to compensate for communities destroyed by phasing out coal and it is no longer economic to mine but still required because renewables are so unreliable (every renewable source needs 100% backup from coal or nuclear ) I love people who claim their supplier only supplies from renewable sources, but if you still had power today when wind and solar virtually absent that cannot be true and if you insist on only using renewable power your supply should have been turned off today.

The perfect test for renewables is a couple of days of cloudy windless cold weather,  all I can say is thank goodness we still have coal and nuclear, or NHS would be even more busy in winter dealing with frostbite and hypothermia.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on January 10, 2018, 07:45:44 PM
A lot of coal subsidy is paid by EU to compensate for communities destroyed by phasing out coal and it is no longer economic to mine

EU money has certainly gone into ex-mining areas in the past, but coal does not receive a direct subsidy as such in the UK. Most of the coal used in the UK coal fired stations comes from outside of the EU, Columbia, USA, and Russia. If coal fired stations were being used as they were intended, i.e. as base load generation, they would still be the cheapest form of electricity generation at current commercial coal prices.

The reason coal fired generators are being overpaid, you can call it a subsidy if you like, is because they are bidding for lucrative winter back-up capacity contracts, the next of which in this February for 2022. The one nearest me missed out on 2020/21 auctions, but is bidding again for 2022. If they fail to secure a contract, I would think it would be closed by 2020 - they have a derogation on emissions until then, and to operate beyond this date they will have to spend money on new plant, or reduce output. They all have to close by 2025, regardless.

These coal power plants are now operating in a manner they were never designed to, i.e. providing short term capacity at peak times. I don't have to check gridwatch to confirm this, I can see and hear it from my kitchen window... at this time of year, they ramp up from low fire at tea time, and the air breakers disconnect from the national grid in the very early hours. I've lived here for 18 years, and it was not that long ago that this 2GW station basically ran flat out, 24/7 for 50 weeks of the year.

This new routine is destroying the boilers, I know people who work on the outages there... they are spending as little as possible and running the plant into the ground. I'm afraid coal fired generation is on it's last legs in the UK.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 10, 2018, 08:40:50 PM
So anyway. What do you think of the future Honda output?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: MartinJG on January 10, 2018, 11:02:13 PM

Reference to the Golf Mk1 lookalike. Very similar. I still think the MK1 is the best looking and designed Golf, if not car of its generation. It is no wonder they sold so many of them. Breath of fresh air, inside and out, although I believe you had to pay extra for a radio in those days.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on January 10, 2018, 11:19:47 PM
So anyway. What do you think of the future Honda output?

Reminds me of a Mini Clubman, 1980 vintage.

(http://www.carthrottle.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/IMG_1649-2.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 11, 2018, 06:10:38 AM
Very similar front end.
How many of the current forum members will stick with Honda, if all they sell are EVs and Hybrids? Who knows, they may even include some fuel cell technology in their EV range.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on January 11, 2018, 01:42:39 PM
https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/emissions/are-electric-cars-actually-worse-for-the-environment/

This is quite interesting from the RAC about the environmental impacts of EVs. Quite a balanced article I thought. From my own point of view, being a very low mileage driver, the fact that it takes twice as much energy to manufacture an EV means I would likely never reach an environmental break even point.

That leaves me with 2 reasons to buy one. 1) They are an interesting gadget. 2) The running costs would be lower.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 11, 2018, 07:30:46 PM
Interesting article. Another thing to remember is that the pollution caused by burning fossil fuels is not the whole of it. There is a all the pollution due to getting it out of the ground and then refining it. As EVs blossom fossil fuels will start to be used less and the overall pollution associated with them will decrease. And I know hydrocarbons are required to manufacture plastics and such, but perhaps the way the wind is blowing, the demand for them may also decrease too.
As an aside, and in that vein, Scotland is to ban the manufacture and sale of plastic cotton buds.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-42640680 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-42640680)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on January 11, 2018, 08:04:44 PM
The things people flush down the toilet blows my mind, why would you flush cotton buds away, also some toilet wipes are made from almost cloth, certainly not the cellulose of normal bog-roll.   When we lived in Aussie they had big problems with pollution on beaches (one of the worst was Bondi ) and had a campaign showing a toilet pan and a dustbin and the simple message was  'do not confuse these two' . 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on January 11, 2018, 09:50:48 PM
Very similar front end.
How many of the current forum members will stick with Honda, if all they sell are EVs and Hybrids? Who knows, they may even include some fuel cell technology in their EV range.
Hybrids can come in many flavours largely influenced by battery capacity and motor/generator rating (and hence extra cost). I still like the IMA approach used in the Mk 2 Jazz hybrid but that implementation didn't provide a big improvement to fuel economy due to a relative heavy but low capacity battery. However, it appears that Honda is currently using a 7 speed dual clutch gearbox in the current Jazz hybrid https://www.carbay.ph/car-news/2018-honda-jazzfit-revealed-in-japan-21164881 (https://www.carbay.ph/car-news/2018-honda-jazzfit-revealed-in-japan-21164881).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest5079 on January 15, 2018, 09:39:48 AM
Yesterday, I came across an advert for two S/H Renault Zoe's from a Renault dealer. One was a 15 plate and one a 65 plate.  The 15 plate had done 13700 miles and was asking circa £8000 and the 65 plate had done 16500 miles and was £7,750. Now, I then looked at the Renault web site. New, the cheapest was £18000 plus after Government subsidy. So given the age of these two vehicles it seems a fairly steep depreciation given the quest for EV's. Now, the price of £18000 for the cheapest model was dependent on the leasing of batteries. 6,000 miles per annum for the more powerful battery was £69 per month. Renault claim that the distance available from batteries was from 239Km to 402Km. I think that's 150 - 250 miles.
Now, this am on the subject of Autonomous vehicles, was a Lady offering a prize for submissions on road infrastructure and the autonomous vehicle, re roundabouts traffic lights etc. Given HM Government cannot even afford to maintain our existing road system who is going to pay for the road system to be built to accommodate these vehicles?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 15, 2018, 03:07:03 PM
I see Ford has just announced it is to boost its investment in electric vehicles to £8bn in the next five years, more than doubling a previous commitment. The car maker would have 40 hybrid and fully electric vehicles in its range by 2022.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-42689637 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-42689637)
Interesting aside is the last part of the announcement where they say "The US firm also unveiled a more fuel-efficient version of its Ranger pick-up truck, the Ranger 2019. The SUV will have a 2.3-litre EcoBoost engine, 10-speed auto transmission and automatic emergency braking."
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: MartinJG on January 15, 2018, 05:19:33 PM
I see Ford has just announced it is to boost its investment in electric vehicles to £8bn in the next five years, more than doubling a previous commitment. The car maker would have 40 hybrid and fully electric vehicles in its range by 2022.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-42689637 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-42689637)
Interesting aside is the last part of the announcement where they say "The US firm also unveiled a more fuel-efficient version of its Ranger pick-up truck, the Ranger 2019. The SUV will have a 2.3-litre EcoBoost engine, 10-speed auto transmission and automatic emergency braking."

Yes, I can see they will probably need that 10 speed gearbox for their 60MPH speed limit.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 16, 2018, 10:13:18 AM
A brilliant "Fully Charged" giving a view of the future uptake of electric cars.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9k7k3Mzknm8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9k7k3Mzknm8)
One for the sceptics among you.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 19, 2018, 07:49:21 AM
Just watched the latest "Fully Charged" where Robert is driven in the Jaguar I-PACE and I could not get over how much quieter it appears to be, compared with videos of the Tesla. And that is with motor whine engineered to give the sensation of speed. Something called NVH.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest5079 on January 20, 2018, 11:15:32 AM
In July last year I started this all off with the tales of a Zoe from our Hairdresser. Yesterday, we had our haircut and
seeing no Zoe outside I asked if it had gone. It was our hairdressers husband that wanted it. She only said yes it has gone with a smile on her face.
On the way home saw a Tesla. I had seen the car around before but kept forgetting to look up the Tesla badge. On the Wikipedia page was an 'ad' for a Tesla supercharger locally. I only looked as I thought it meant someone had literally made a supercharger for the Tesla.  I have seen the car in Launceston and the Tesla supercharging point is a Lifton a few miles away.
Does the Tesla need a special charging point? I only ask because there appeared to be several charging bays.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on January 20, 2018, 12:40:15 PM
In July last year I started this all off with the tales of a Zoe from our Hairdresser. Yesterday, we had our haircut and
seeing no Zoe outside I asked if it had gone. It was our hairdressers husband that wanted it. She only said yes it has gone with a smile on her face.
On the way home saw a Tesla. I had seen the car around before but kept forgetting to look up the Tesla badge. On the Wikipedia page was an 'ad' for a Tesla supercharger locally. I only looked as I thought it meant someone had literally made a supercharger for the Tesla.  I have seen the car in Launceston and the Tesla supercharging point is a Lifton a few miles away.
Does the Tesla need a special charging point? I only ask because there appeared to be several charging bays.

Tesla use their own plugs and chargers,  like early days of mobile phones when every charger had a different voltage and plug and when you changed phone you needed a new charger, only recently standardised on mini and micro USB and 5volts LOL.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 20, 2018, 01:41:39 PM
A Tesla can be charged from a home installed charger, a rapid "Supercharger", and even from a domestic 13A plug, though a full charge that way takes an age!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on January 20, 2018, 01:54:51 PM
Tesla have got it sussed re charging though. Loads of chargers at each location and no faffing about with Apps. Ecotricity have only just announced that faffing with Apps will be phased out this year on their chargers but what idiot decided to use Apps in the first place. Credit or Debit card - job done.

But the EV industry, collectively, haven't made it easy for EV owners apart from Tesla. The conspiracy theorist in me wonders if this is to slow down uptake as they have so much invested in ICE cars. You've only got to go on YouTube to see people, in the pouring rain - fiddling about with Apps and cards - comic cuts indeed.

Whilst on the conspiracy theory front - is this why Nissan haven't gone straight to the 60 kwh battery which would give a real world range of 250 miles - they want the uptake to be phased as they start to run down investment in ICE plants.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest1372 on January 20, 2018, 07:14:15 PM
It's surprising there isn't more conformity driven by IEC standards (and SAE & IEEE), but maybe commercial pressures are forcing the issue. 
Maybe we need an EU directive?

IEC: "Their collective achievement overcame some significant hurdles..... the use of a diverse range of plugs, connectors, voltage levels and frequencies.  Addressing such global challenges, IEC International Standard for EV d.c. fast charging systems comprises the three preferred systems and their associated plugs and connectors: CATARC, COMBO1 and 2, and CHAdeMO."

I'm not sure of the market share vs performance of these three main hookup types?
--
TG

http://www.iec.ch/newslog/2014/nr1014.htm
http://www.sae.org/standardsdev/vehicleelectrification.htm
http://standards.ieee.org/findstds/standard/2030.1.1-2015.html
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest5079 on January 21, 2018, 08:08:05 AM
The charging points in Lifton are in a residential area and given the number, it would suggest either there are several Tesslas in the Launceston area or the installer anticipates a large uptake of Teslas!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on January 21, 2018, 12:01:42 PM
The charging points in Lifton are in a residential area and given the number, it would suggest either there are several Tesslas in the Launceston area or the installer anticipates a large uptake of Teslas!

Up till now Tesla have been supplying a very, very expensive premium car and still haemorrhaging money at about $1billion a quarter - they are having massive problems upscaling production for a cheaper lower margin model 3.  I don't know how much of their losses is due to rolling out their charger network but maybe someone will buy the network when Tesla files for chapter 11.

With more and more competitors models appearing in the lower cost EV market (but still expensive compared to ICE) from mainstream car makers who can run a car making business effectively Tesla shares do not look like a very promising bet.  People from silicon valley,  used to making massive profits from very few employees will never get their head around manufacturing,  especially cars, which is a low margin high risk business.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/tesla-model-3-issues-causing-dangerous-cash-problem-2017-11?r=US&IR=T

Tesla 'Spacex' rocket division also getting a bad name for 'losing' very expensive satellites - where competitors may be pricier but have a brilliant track record.   No good being cheaper if you then lose billion dollar payloads.

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2018/01/curious-case-of-elon-musks-disappearing-satellite-spacex-zuma

https://www.forbes.com/sites/lorenthompson/2018/01/15/doubts-about-spacex-reliability-persist-as-astronaut-missions-approach/#500ddbf83305

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on January 21, 2018, 12:32:57 PM
There is a bit of an anomaly on BEV ownership,  If you lease the battery it is probably already costing you more than most people spend on fuel in  month, if you buy the battery you could end up with a very expensive bill or a very expensive ornament that you can't sell because battery is FUBAR.   The BEV is expensive anyway and the value drops like a lead balloon once you have bought one so where is the saving ?

Battery vehicles may make sense for business users because costs are skewed by lower benefit in kind taxes and tax breaks on buying EV etc etc but for private users doing lowish mileage the fuel cost savings are not there if you lease the battery,  and low residuals (high depreciation) on BEV mean lease costs are higher than they should be.

I guess governments are enticing people to buy BEV by subsidies on purchase price, allowing them into cities and towns with no emissions charges and zero road tax.  We all know governments will not suffer the lower tax income for long so I guess when a 'critical mass' of people have been lured in the various charges will go up.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 01, 2018, 05:00:07 PM
Some interesting videos, from the Energy Saving Trust, about owning and running an electric car. (Energy Saving Trust is an independent, not-for-profit organisation funded by the government and the private sector.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8GK2B8RftM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8GK2B8RftM)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kVPpxAiwCU&t=108s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kVPpxAiwCU&t=108s)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpPvL3MaVo0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpPvL3MaVo0)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_8lBikCF3Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_8lBikCF3Q)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 03, 2018, 09:04:29 AM
Saw a TV advert for the new Nissan Leaf last night. Very impressive advertising. May well boost sales to the non petrolheads out there. Look out for it on the box.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 04, 2018, 02:43:05 PM
I received a brochure from Suzuki for the new Swift (I had dabbled with the idea of a Suzuki before getting the Jazz).

(https://www.netcarshow.com/Suzuki-Swift-2018-1600-03.jpg)

I said to my wife that it looked quite smart, and her comment was it was not a patch on the new Nissan they advertised on the telly the other evening. The new 2018 Leaf!
It certainly will appeal to a wider audience than the the old Leaf.

(https://icdn-3.motor1.com/images/mgl/yY0EG/s1/2018-nissan-leaf-render.jpg)

Personally I think it looks closer to the new Jazz.

(https://i.ndtvimg.com/i/2017-08/2018-honda-jazz-facelift-face_827x510_61502711947.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: VicW on February 04, 2018, 07:23:00 PM
I have just read a road test of a new Renault Zoe EV. The big battery version costs £26,000 after the government grant.
A new,basic, Jazz with no extras, plain colour and CVT costs £15,000.
You can buy a hell of a lot of petrol for £11,000.
That's about 11 years petrol by my consumption allowing for no road tax..
Oh yes I forgot, I would be saving the world!

Vic.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 04, 2018, 07:35:10 PM
How about a Bollinger B1, planned to be available in Right Hand Drive, in the UK in 3 or 4 years? It is what the early Land Rover was, only electric. Looks very exciting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dav55oUJ-w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dav55oUJ-w)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 04, 2018, 08:00:16 PM
I have just read a road test of a new Renault Zoe EV. The big battery version costs £26,000 after the government grant.
New Nissan Leaf starts at £21,900, and that is with the 40 kWh battery. As well as no petrol (still have to pay for electricity), and no road tax, the cost of servicing is minimal. Even if you get your car serviced by Nissan (who would be so extravagant) it is £50 less than for a petrol minor service and £70 less than for a major petrol service.
The Nissan battery has an eight year/100,000 mile battery capacity warranty.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on February 05, 2018, 10:34:05 AM
Even if you get your car serviced by Nissan (who would be so extravagant) it is £50 less than for a petrol minor service and £70 less than for a major petrol service.

What exactly do they service on an electric vehicle? I imagine the worksheet will consist of a page full of check this, that and the other... and they don't bother with most of them on conventional cars, just tick the boxes.

Perhaps it has to go in to change the pollen filter.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on February 05, 2018, 10:41:03 AM
Even if you get your car serviced by Nissan (who would be so extravagant) it is £50 less than for a petrol minor service and £70 less than for a major petrol service.

What exactly do they service on an electric vehicle? I imagine the worksheet will consist of a page full of check this, that and the other... and they don't bother with most of them on conventional cars, just tick the boxes.

Perhaps it has to go in to change the pollen filter.

They do what dealers normally do for a service - stamp the book, valet the car and give it back to you,  its far cheaper to use a car wash.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on February 05, 2018, 12:05:17 PM
I think Culzean has a point. There is literally nothing to do and yet my mate tells me he pays £99 for a small service and £199 for a big one on his Nissan Leaf. Brake fluid change is the only thing they do on the big one.

OK - go to a main dealer on a Jazz and you'll pay £165 for the small service and £265 for the big one but there is stuff to do!

Have an MOT done and they'll do a check list safety check for nothing. I guess the service charges for EVs are to preserve revenue streams and very little else.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 05, 2018, 12:09:23 PM
From what I have read an EV service comprises a pollen filter change and a cursory brake check (though with regen braking and the new "single pedal" operation brakes are good for over 100,000 miles. Perhaps it is to check the brakes have not seized up!).
Latest figures from the SMMT, released today, show that "Sales of alternatively fuelled vehicles, including electric and hybrid vehicles, saw a rise of 34.8% to almost 120,000.". Sales of EVs is up 25%, according to BBC news broadcast at 11:30, but not published on the BBC web site.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42571828 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42571828)

http://www.nextgreencar.com/electric-cars/statistics/ (http://www.nextgreencar.com/electric-cars/statistics/)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on February 05, 2018, 12:45:41 PM
On costs I think it is still the case that you need to do a lot of miles to recoup the price premium. They make a great deal of sense for somebody who does a daily commute by car if it's an appreciable distance.

Where I started to cool on EVs was when I looked at my annual mileage of 3,000 (ish). This costs me around £30 per month along with £10 Road Tax. Then there is the range thing and this is where it gets quite frustrating. 95% of my journeys are 10 miles or less. I'd probably only need to charge up once a week. The problem comes with a few journeys that are virtually undoable in an EV with limited range - there are no chargers on the way. There are another couple of trips that are doable but squeaky bum time in terms of range.

Had a good long think and this is what would tempt me - 200 miles range at 70 mph on a wet motorway on a cold day with climate control set to 21 degrees and a purchase price - new - of no more than £15,000. We will get there but, until we do, I'm out.

If I had 2 cars - I'd have an older EV in a heartbeat as one of the two but I am the only driver in our household.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on February 05, 2018, 01:31:56 PM
On costs I think it is still the case that you need to do a lot of miles to recoup the price premium. They make a great deal of sense for somebody who does a daily commute by car if it's an appreciable distance.

Where I started to cool on EVs was when I looked at my annual mileage of 3,000 (ish). This costs me around £30 per month along with £10 Road Tax. Then there is the range thing and this is where it gets quite frustrating. 95% of my journeys are 10 miles or less. I'd probably only need to charge up once a week. The problem comes with a few journeys that are virtually undoable in an EV with limited range - there are no chargers on the way. There are another couple of trips that are doable but squeaky bum time in terms of range.

Had a good long think and this is what would tempt me - 200 miles range at 70 mph on a wet motorway on a cold day with climate control set to 21 degrees and a purchase price - new - of no more than £15,000. We will get there but, until we do, I'm out.

If I had 2 cars - I'd have an older EV in a heartbeat as one of the two but I am the only driver in our household.

Don't forget the battery lease charge - an extra £70+ a month to add to running costs.  The thing about BEV is they are good if you do a lot of regular short to medium local mileage / commuting - but you have to do a few miles to get the premium price / high depreciation and battery lease cost back. Will be interesting to see what happens if EV incentives are removed by government in UK - which may be as early as March this year.

Sales of EV may be up, but from a very low base, they have been available for about 8 years now and plug-in hybrids make up a good proportion of sales (mainly due to benefit in kind tax relief - which is what skewed diesel sales for a while).  As we know mot plug in hybrids like Mitsubishi Outlander  are a bit pants for business use as they get 15 to 20 miles on full battery and then 25 to 30 mpg and have to lug the 500Kg battery around (same as 6 or 7 passengers) even though it is empty (funny thing about batteries they don't get lighter as they discharge).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 05, 2018, 01:37:42 PM
200 miles range at 70 mph on a wet motorway on a cold day with climate control set to 21 degrees and a purchase price - new - of no more than £15,000.
That would be a definite for me. No questions asked. They reckon 2 years to reach that price point, and range is not that far away even now. The next increase in battery size should see that. That will happen as the battery prices continue to fall. It is only the fact they try and keep the price down by fitting small batteries that limits the range to the extent they do.
Regarding leasing a battery. Why anyone would be daft enough to do that is beyond me. The new Leaf comes "battery bought". I think only Renault lease the batteries now. That was an early years thing.

https://www.gogreenautos.co.uk/buyers-guide/battery-lease-explained (https://www.gogreenautos.co.uk/buyers-guide/battery-lease-explained)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest1372 on February 05, 2018, 01:47:10 PM
10000 miles or less p.a. makes no sense in an EV, the energy and CO2 used to build the thing will exceed any savings in use.  Now if they would park 4 of them on every street and we all subscribed to the service, they could send them off for recycling/replacement at 4 or 5 years old and 100k+ miles. I'm quite used to Enterprise dropping cars off the day before I need them but would prefer the convenience of self service. Mind you, I'd do more Uber in London.
--
TG
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on February 05, 2018, 02:16:00 PM
Jocko is right about the battery lease thing - it's becoming old hat although you do need to check the lease thing if you are buying second hand. Dealers not that great at specifying in their adverts. Some don't even specify if, in the case of a Leaf, it is 24 or 30 kwh - a crucial difference because the 30 kwh gives another 25 miles of range and that can be crucial for some customers.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on February 06, 2018, 04:07:11 PM
Buying an electric car now is like buying a petrol car in 1910. Within the next 10-15 years there will be HUGE advances in battery technology and efficiency making today's offerings look teh rubbish they are.

NEVER ever be a among the first users of new technology... See mobile phones of 20 years ago, and modern intelligent TVs versus offerings of 1999. See also the humble home vacuum..
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on February 06, 2018, 05:13:27 PM
Definitely penalties involved in being an early adopter.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 07, 2018, 09:38:57 AM
So we now have an electric car in space.

(https://d1bdhkmqqz901h.cloudfront.net/980x735/smart/http://s3.amazonaws.com/new-smedia/04387a77b7ab42a3ae8a45f4fb092f33/d09b44dadd5b4282a670941bfa16e9a4.jpg)

Elon Musk's Falcon Heavy rocket was a huge success and launched his Tesla Roadster into space. Say what you like about the man, he is a showman. P. T. Barnum for the 21st century. Always thought Musk was an American until now. He is actually South African, born and raised in Pretoria.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/elon-musks-spacex-falcon-heavy-incredible-footage-shows-rocket-soar-past-earth-a3759976.html (https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/elon-musks-spacex-falcon-heavy-incredible-footage-shows-rocket-soar-past-earth-a3759976.html)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on February 07, 2018, 09:42:44 AM
Pity Musks rockets are no good for their main job of launching ultra-expensive satellites.  The Russians still seem to build the best rockets (and most effective surface to air missiles unfortunately).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 07, 2018, 09:57:27 AM
Pity Musks rockets are no good for their main job of launching ultra-expensive satellites.
Where did you get that idea from? Was it the Daily Mail? This was their first launch of an experimental rocket. NASA would have used a concrete block as an expendable payload simulator. He used an old Tesla Roadster.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-42969020 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-42969020)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on February 07, 2018, 10:24:58 AM
Pity Musks rockets are no good for their main job of launching ultra-expensive satellites.
Where did you get that idea from? Was it the Daily Mail? This was their first launch of an experimental rocket. NASA would have used a concrete block as an expendable payload simulator. He used an old Tesla Roadster.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-42969020 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-42969020)

Not more space junk.....


http://money.cnn.com/2018/01/09/technology/spacex-zuma-spacecraft-lost/index.html

Value of Zuma spy satellite is US$Billions,  hope his insurance is up to date............... and its not the first failure. 

India seems to be doing very well with successful launches.

The cost of failure for a private company can be crippling, and with Tesla not doing well either - chapter 11 here we come.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 07, 2018, 10:29:28 AM
And has nobody else lost any satellites, over the years?

http://spacenews.com/soyuz-satellites-feared-lost-in-launch-failure/ (http://spacenews.com/soyuz-satellites-feared-lost-in-launch-failure/)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on February 08, 2018, 02:15:04 PM
Not more space junk.....

Not really, will be on it's way to the asteroid belt soon, so won't be cluttering up the space around Earth for too much longer.

I don't see how anyone can fail to find the technology demonstrated in the launch this week as anything but inspirational. Seeing the two side boosters landing side by side in almost perfect synchronisation was just phenomenal.

And now you can follow your favourite electric space car live...
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest5079 on February 08, 2018, 02:52:14 PM
Where  does the car charge up?   Perhaps there will be even more junk put into space with a system of charging points all the way????? Flippancy will get me nowhere. At least the satellite owners didn't lose any money.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on February 10, 2018, 04:04:23 PM
https://www.wired.com/story/tesla-model-3-production-problems-elon-musk-feb-2018/

Tesla continues to burn money faster than its Spacex heavy lifter burns kerosene.....

Quote from above article ...  "For now, though, it's all Model 3. Because it turns out car production isn't rocket science. It's much harder".

Here is an interesting comparison of Apollo Saturn V rocket and Falcon Heavy – And the Saturn 5 was built with slide rules at a time when silicon valley did not exist.  https://newatlas.com/falcon-heavy-saturn-v/53090/

The amazing Voyager 1 and 2 launched 40 years ago keep up their amazing journey. https://newatlas.com/voyager-1-thrusters-fired/52452/

Compilation of Spacex failures to date  https://newatlas.com/spacex-blooper-video/51356/
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 10, 2018, 04:32:25 PM
This is a lot more interesting than whether rockets produced by a government are batter than rockets produced by a commercial company.

https://www.wired.com/story/tesla-autopilot-why-crash-radar/?mbid=BottomRelatedStories (https://www.wired.com/story/tesla-autopilot-why-crash-radar/?mbid=BottomRelatedStories)

So it is not just Teslas that crash into stationary objects. Any car with Adaptive Cruise Control can!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on February 10, 2018, 05:19:12 PM

https://www.wired.com/story/tesla-autopilot-why-crash-radar/?mbid=BottomRelatedStories (https://www.wired.com/story/tesla-autopilot-why-crash-radar/?mbid=BottomRelatedStories)

So it is not just Teslas that crash into stationary objects. Any car with Adaptive Cruise Control can!

Yep - even a stupid human would not do that (unless they were on the phone or watching a video) - "programmed to ignore stationary objects otherwise it would not work at all" - that is a damning statement that makes you wonder it self-driving cars will ever be safe.

At the bottom of article in link is another link to 'autonomous cars have entered the trough of disillusionment ' where the real problems of replacing us dumb humans are showing up.

https://www.wired.com/story/self-driving-cars-challenges/?mbid=BottomRelatedStories
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 10, 2018, 07:02:26 PM
Forget about self driving cars. Reactive Cruise Control is currently available on a whole range of cars including Honda Civics and CR-Vs.

http://owners.honda.com/vehicles/information/2018/CR-V/features/Adaptive-Cruise-Control (http://owners.honda.com/vehicles/information/2018/CR-V/features/Adaptive-Cruise-Control)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 12, 2018, 12:59:37 PM
Just been watching the latest "Fully Charged", featuring the new electric TX black cab. Brilliant. It is a Range Extender EV. Petrol engine is not connected to wheels, only used to charge the battery. It has a range of 400 miles with 80 miles full EV. Battery will charge to 80% in 25 minutes so they can be plugged in while the cabbie has his break.
Cost to buy is £55599, almost twice the cost of a conventional TX, but a conventional TX4 costs £166 per week on a four year lease while the electric TX5 costs £177. And the electric cab costs £100 per week less to run plus it only needs serviced every 25,000 miles, which for the London cab is about every 12 month (conventional cab is about every 6 months).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOxnJQP2_0E (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOxnJQP2_0E)

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/98450/new-tx-electric-london-taxi-priced-at-55599 (http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/98450/new-tx-electric-london-taxi-priced-at-55599)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 13, 2018, 01:03:29 PM
Interesting video of Jeremy Clarkson reviewing the Tesla Model X. He seems to enjoy it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Cdyuq5IC3k&t=506s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Cdyuq5IC3k&t=506s)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on February 17, 2018, 09:38:46 AM
This BBC article this morning neatly describes why I cannot buy an EV anytime soon, no matter how much I might want to (and yes, I think I might be very tempted because my pattern of vehicle use would suit an EV):
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42944523

In my (roughly) 100m of street, there are 27 terraced properties, none of which has off-street parking. Each has at least one (and sometimes more) vehicles, plus commuters & shoppers, so the street has constant nose-to-tail parking on both sides. Often you can't even park in the street, never mind within charging distance of your own house. It's a conservation area so the council are unlikely to agree to roadside charging points, and there are just 3 street lights. Even if a limited number of chargers could be installed (eg at the street lights), we would need a culture change so that people did not block them when they don't need them, and noting the current disregard for yellow line restrictions that simply isn't going to happen. So it's just not a practical option. It'll be interesting to see what happens as the crunch point of 2040 approaches, but maybe it won't matter to me by then.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on February 17, 2018, 10:38:08 AM
Just adding to what Colin has said above I have turned my back on EVs - despite being very interested - for a number of reasons. The key one was when I got my son-in-law (qualified electrician) to look at the feasibility of installing a charge point. We have off road parking but no garage and no vehicular access to the main entrance to the property (the "front" door being at the side). He came up with a number of options all of which had problems. One was to simply put the charger just outside the "front" door and charge with a 25 foot cable (these are available for around £150). This would run up the middle of the drive causing a trip hazard. The better option was to dig up half the front garden creating a new parking space - the charger would then go on the front wall of the property supplied by an armoured cable.

I was losing the will to live at this point but I then went to an event at a local Nissan dealers where the new Leaf was being demonstrated. 235 miles? Forget that but a genuine 150 easily attainable. If that car, or something better, was in my price range, it opens up the possibility of just using fast chargers. I'd need to charge once a fortnight. This is doable.

So range is still the issue as is the infrastructure. These will both improve greatly but, for now, I'm out.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on February 17, 2018, 12:01:49 PM
I drove into our local town the other evening and parked on main carpark.  There were 4 charging bays marked with blue lines and a prominent charger next to them - three of the bays were occupied by normal ICE cars - and this isn't the first time I have seen blue charging bays with normal cars parked in them (and surprisingly not large BMW or Audi SUV's).

I don't know who polices the spaces or if local council just installed them to tick a box on their 'green' policy and then forgot about them,  but I would be well pissed of if I had a BEV (ha ha) and could not charge it. There is no 'charge' for parking during the evening / night so no parking wardens around, so possibly people feel safe to park in the spots between 6PM and 8AM.

Also if charging points are installed on normal town / city street (mostly already overcrowded with cars) It does not take much imagination to guess that no-one is going to get up during the night to mover their car and allow someone else to use the charger so it will be able to handle one car a night,  and if and ICE car needs a spot during the day they will use the charging bay - and if someone is charging their car in the day and does not have a spot to move to they will leave their car in the bay even after it is charged.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 17, 2018, 02:33:25 PM
I don't think there is currently any point in owning an EV unless you have your own off street parking. I will be moving to a house with a drive, soon, and will buy my Nissan Leaf then. My intention is to run an armoured cable, underground, and bring it up to a new post installed beside the drive. No need for a long charging cable, no trip hazard.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on February 17, 2018, 02:57:24 PM
I don't think there is currently any point in owning an EV unless you have your own off street parking. I will be moving to a house with a drive, soon, and will buy my Nissan Leaf then. My intention is to run an armoured cable, underground, and bring it up to a new post installed beside the drive. No need for a long charging cable, no trip hazard.

yes - my son in law did mention the post method. Involves a lot of disruption though and a more expensive option unless you can do the spade (no pun intended) work yourself.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on February 17, 2018, 06:20:32 PM
... I have turned my back on EVs ... The key [reason] was ... the feasibility of installing a charge point.
I don't think there is currently any point in owning an EV unless you have your own off street parking.
And there's the rub. The BBC article suggests nearly a third of car owners will not have anywhere to charge an EV if they buy one. There is no easy answer to that problem, and I certainly do not see any public or private suppliers contemplating the kind of infrastructure project that will sustain the current level of car ownership as we approach 2040. You would need to fit every single public and supermarket car park space with a charger, and even that will only scratch the surface of the problem. We are pinning our hopes on some kind of breakthrough in battery and charging technology that will make it all possible, but that's always been "just around the corner".

Without your own private charging facility, the sheer hassle of having to use a limited number of public chargers is going to make car ownership more trouble than it's worth for a very large number of people. Maybe that's not a bad thing because it'll reduce the number of vehicles clogging up our streets, but it's going to have an adverse impact on Joe Public's ability to travel for work and leisure.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 17, 2018, 06:42:05 PM
Without your own private charging facility, the sheer hassle of having to use a limited number of public chargers is going to make car ownership more trouble than it's worth for a very large number of people. Maybe that's not a bad thing because it'll reduce the number of vehicles clogging up our streets, but it's going to have an adverse impact on Joe Public's ability to travel for work and leisure.
That is where autonomous cars, turning up at a phone call, will make travel easier.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on February 17, 2018, 11:36:24 PM
That is where autonomous cars, turning up at a phone call, will make travel easier.
And where are they going to charge themselves ?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on February 18, 2018, 09:30:32 AM
I think what all this shows is that we are some way from EVs being suitable for everybody. In my extensive research (which has resulted in me buying another Jazz!) I think I have drawn the following conclusions:

1) EVs ideal as second car if you have suitable off road parking.
2) Long range EVs - like Teslas - suitable as main car if you are near one of their superchargers. They install 10 at a time.
3) Charging infrastructure is a major issue. There are many many journeys you can do which are in charge point deserts. I did 2 last year and I'm doing another one later today (although I could charge up at our friends' house).
4) Ideal as urban car but if you live in an urban environment you may well have no off road parking.

The new Nissan Leaf 40 kwh would actually suit my needs WITHOUT a home charging point but they are a long way out of my budget at the moment.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 18, 2018, 09:45:56 AM
That is where autonomous cars, turning up at a phone call, will make travel easier.
And where are they going to charge themselves ?
The business plan I have read is that, like buses, they go back to the company's depot. There they will be charged, cleaned and sent back out again. The London Black Cab TX5 recharges to 80% on 25 minutes.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on February 18, 2018, 11:40:17 AM
That is where autonomous cars, turning up at a phone call, will make travel easier.
And where are they going to charge themselves ?
The business plan I have read is that, like buses, they go back to the company's depot. There they will be charged, cleaned and sent back out again. The London Black Cab TX5 recharges to 80% on 25 minutes.
Let’s get real here by looking at some numbers.

I live in the city of Bath, which has a population of around 95000 (Ref 1). According to the RAC Foundation we own 526 vehicles per 1000 of population (Ref 2, latest figure I can find). So that’s 49970 vehicles. The BBC (link earlier in the thread) suggests 1/3 of those don’t have off-street charging, so that’s 16657 vehicles.

Now, how many of those can be replaced by auto-Ubers ? That’s tricky, clearly it’s not going to be 1:1, but the calculation needs to make assumptions about how many will be needed simultaneously (eg everyone needing to go to work during the rush hour), plus some will always be charging back at the depot. I’m going to assume we’ll only need 20% of 16657, which is 3331 auto-Ubers but you can pick your own number if you think that’s not realistic.

That is one huge out of town depot which has to be within a reasonable distance of the city. To put that into perspective, Bath has 3 P&R sites totalling around 2500 spaces. The Council recently failed in an attempt to build a fourth due to a combination of there being no suitable site and very strong local opposition. So what chance of a massive auto-Uber depot ? And before anyone points out that you could convert the existing P&Rs to auto-Uber depots, those are heavily used by people travelling in from elsewhere so there’s not enough room for them to also accommodate auto-Uber’s for residents.

Whilst I’ve used a particular city as an example, it’s going to be similar elsewhere. And let’s not forget that a large auto-Uber network will actually increase congestion (albeit not local pollution) because of the need for the extra journeys to/from the depot and from job to job.

So sorry, I just don’t think an auto-Uber system is going to provide the solution.

References
(1) Wikipedia: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath,_Somerset
(2) RAC Foundation: https://www.racfoundation.org/assets/rac_foundation/content/downloadables/car%20ownership%20rates%20by%20local%20authority%20-%20december%202012.pdf
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest4871 on February 18, 2018, 11:47:18 AM
Plus, of course, more people would want to use them and more often.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 18, 2018, 12:26:11 PM
I live in the city of Bath, which has a population of around 95000 (Ref 1). According to the RAC Foundation we own 526 vehicles per 1000 of population (Ref 2, latest figure I can find). So that’s 49970 vehicles. The BBC (link earlier in the thread) suggests 1/3 of those don’t have off-street charging, so that’s 16657 vehicles.
These numbers are assuming every vehicle in Bath is an EV. That won't happen for a very, very long time. Autonomous Uber style vehicles will gradually take up the slack, especially when ICE vehicles are no longer sold. And as for congestion, autonomous vehicles will supposedly run close together and at a far higher traffic density. It is going to happen, how the infrastructure copes is anyone's guess, but EVs are taking over, irrespective of your wishes, VW has announced they will be selling 20 EV models, worldwide, by 2025.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on February 18, 2018, 02:18:03 PM
I live in the city of Bath, which has a population of around 95000 (Ref 1). According to the RAC Foundation we own 526 vehicles per 1000 of population (Ref 2, latest figure I can find). So that’s 49970 vehicles. The BBC (link earlier in the thread) suggests 1/3 of those don’t have off-street charging, so that’s 16657 vehicles.
These numbers are assuming every vehicle in Bath is an EV. That won't happen for a very, very long time. Autonomous Uber style vehicles will gradually take up the slack, especially when ICE vehicles are no longer sold. And as for congestion, autonomous vehicles will supposedly run close together and at a far higher traffic density. It is going to happen, how the infrastructure copes is anyone's guess, but EVs are taking over, irrespective of your wishes, VW has announced they will be selling 20 EV models, worldwide, by 2025.

You have to add AV running around empty to the traffic flow and also more people becoming commuters due to commute becoming easier,  the laws of unintended consequences apply here.....
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 18, 2018, 02:32:28 PM
I have posted this link before, but for all you AV enthusiasts, and AV naysayers, it is well worth a watch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BWJcpesr6A&t=18s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BWJcpesr6A&t=18s)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on February 18, 2018, 03:08:38 PM
Proper safe AV will be so expensive with LIDAR and all the other crap fitted that no-one will be able to afford them.  I guess just like aircraft if there is an accident that is fault of auto-system all similar cars will be 'grounded' until it is sorted.  Add this to hackers playing grand theft auto with real cars and who knows where it will end..
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 18, 2018, 03:34:08 PM
LIDAR is getting cheaper by the day. Solid state LIDAR will be fitted to AVs of the future.
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/01/driving-around-without-a-driver-lidar-technology-explained/ (https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/01/driving-around-without-a-driver-lidar-technology-explained/)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on February 18, 2018, 05:57:47 PM
I live in the city of Bath, which has a population of around 95000 (Ref 1). According to the RAC Foundation we own 526 vehicles per 1000 of population (Ref 2, latest figure I can find). So that’s 49970 vehicles. The BBC (link earlier in the thread) suggests 1/3 of those don’t have off-street charging, so that’s 16657 vehicles.
These numbers are assuming every vehicle in Bath is an EV...
That’s true, but you were the one suggesting that auto-Uber’s would take over when 1/3 of current car owners have to give up their wheels because they can no longer charge them. So I’m looking at the end point of that process. I used a fudge factor of 20%, you’re welcome to use something else, but however you cut it you end up with needing a very large fleet of auto-Uber’s and an unfeasibly large charging depot somewhere ... which was the whole point of looking at some numbers. That depot can’t be built in the city centre (there’s no room, land is too expensive), it has to be out of town in the areas where - surprise, surprise - the houses have off road parking/charging so those folks will be very vocal about having this facility plonked on them. So I don’t see how this concept of having a big fleet that quietly goes off to <somewhere tbd> when it’s not needed can possibly be viable. I’d love to be proved wrong, but I just don’t see it.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 18, 2018, 06:12:20 PM
Might I suggest one of the many industrial estates would fill the bill. There are dozens of them round here. And what about all the inner city brownfield sites (maybe not Bath, but most other places have them).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on February 18, 2018, 06:26:12 PM
LIDAR is getting cheaper by the day. Solid state LIDAR will be fitted to AVs of the future.
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/01/driving-around-without-a-driver-lidar-technology-explained/ (https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/01/driving-around-without-a-driver-lidar-technology-explained/)

Problem with LIDAR is it is rendered fairly useless by rain, fog or snow as too many false reflections.  Another problem is the power of the laser, even  0.25watt lasers carry a warning not to look into them and LIDAR needs more power than it presently has if range is going to be improved (at present LIDAR is not suitable for speeds over 50mph because of range issues) higher power lasers will be illegal due to damage to human eyes.

Radar is better in rain, fog and snow but still has issues, and has low resolution. 

A lot of this stuff is still in 'tomorrows world' territory and the last 2% of AV  is going to be much harder than the first 98%.   Us humans are awesome if only we can be trusted to pay attention.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 18, 2018, 06:43:58 PM
https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/29/16705674/velodyne-lidar-128-autonomous-vehicles-driverless-cars (https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/29/16705674/velodyne-lidar-128-autonomous-vehicles-driverless-cars)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on February 19, 2018, 02:35:15 PM
The thing is, you can't solve tomorrow's problems with today's thinking. For example...


I could go on. As fun as this conversation is, it is today's thinking projected 20-40 years out. 40 years ago the number of cars on the road, and miles driven, was a fraction what it is now. 40 years befoore that, car ownership was a kind of luxury, and 40 years before that, cars were powered by steam.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest4871 on February 19, 2018, 03:13:51 PM
40 years before that, cars were powered by steam.

.....and (120 years ago) most other forms of transport were fully bio degradeable or powered by wind.....
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on February 19, 2018, 04:20:34 PM
The thing is, you can't solve tomorrow's problems with today's thinking. For example...

  • - we are assuming that batteries will persist and fuel cells won't become feasible
  • - that large numbers will still want to own a car, even if half the other cars might be self driving
  • - that we will all travel to work like we do now
  • - what if pourable battery fuel, or hot swap batteries, could be incorporated into future designs
  • - what if virtual reality reaches a point where travel, except for tourism and visiting relatives, will become an anachronism

I could go on. As fun as this conversation is, it is today's thinking projected 20-40 years out. 40 years ago the number of cars on the road, and miles driven, was a fraction what it is now. 40 years befoore that, car ownership was a kind of luxury, and 40 years before that, cars were powered by steam.

It was widely touted when internet started that there would be a lot of people who need not turn up for work every day and traffic jams would be history.  The reality is that pretty much everyone still goes to work and traffic has been made much worse by people buying most things on the internet and courier vans making up probably 30% of traffic. 

Air and a lot of business travel was to be made history by video conferencing - air and business travel has increased exponentially. 

As for people not wanting to own a car - we will have to wait and see,  learning to drive and getting a car was a rite of passage for young people and gave independence to go anywhere at anytime,  don't know it that is changing due to high insurance costs,  but I would guess the majority of people will still want personal transport.

Fuel cells still better than batteries if you can find a cheap source of hydrogen (or maybe a methane fuel cell).

Getting car makers to standardize on batteries is like trying to herd cats if not harder.

We relied on wind for powering ships up until just over 100 years ago and voyages were long with disease and shipwreck taking many lives - all that was in the past when we could harness steam and diesel, everything became much more safe, much faster and reliable and goods became cheaper - now we are trying to use wind power again,  we never learn...........
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on February 19, 2018, 08:31:32 PM
As for people not wanting to own a car - we will have to wait and see ...  but I would guess the majority of people will still want personal transport.
Alternatives to personal transport ownership have existed for over 150 years. First the Hansom Cab, through taxis , minicabs, rental cars, Car Clubs, and latterly Uber. Autonomous Uber’s are merely the future incarnation of that with the human replaced by a robot. They all have their role to fill but yet a large majority of people have preferred the comfort, convenience and flexibility of owning their own. I don’t see that desire changing anytime soon. The difference, as we move towards 2040, is that many people will be forced to give up their wheels because they don’t have anywhere to charge an EV. Joe Public probably won’t like that when he realises it’s going to become much more difficult to travel for work or leisure.

Fuel cells still better than batteries if you can find a cheap source of hydrogen (or maybe a methane fuel cell).
Personally, I agree. H2 has its problems, but it is more flexible for the end user because it doesn’t have the charging or range issues of a pure EV or the local pollution issues of a petrol or diesel hybrid. What if the money going into battery development went into building H2 filling stations, and we invested the kind of dosh that currently goes towards building oil refineries into large-scale electrolysis plants instead ? You could even conceive of having a home electrolyser in the garage (if you have one) powered by your solar panels if you wanted. Fantasy mode <off> !
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 19, 2018, 08:54:21 PM
As for people not wanting to own a car - we will have to wait and see,  learning to drive and getting a car was a rite of passage for young people and gave independence to go anywhere at anytime,  don't know it that is changing due to high insurance costs,  but I would guess the majority of people will still want personal transport.
I have two grandsons who have no inclination to learn to drive or own a car. My daughter and her husband offered to buy their provisional, pay for lessons and their test, and both declined They like partying and prefer to bus out and taxi back. Perhaps in the future they may change their minds, especially when marriage and kids come along, but I had my licence for my 17th birthday and had been driving on a local disused airfield for a couple of years before that!
Quote
They all have their role to fill but yet a large majority of people have preferred the comfort, convenience and flexibility of owning their own. I don’t see that desire changing anytime soon.
The single biggest thing may well be cost. If autonomous ride sharing is cheap enough (they reckon it can be done cheaper than current subsidised bus fares) then people may be happy to change. Only time will tell. Personally I like having my own car, but the future may well change even my opinion.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on February 20, 2018, 08:25:21 AM
The single biggest thing may well be cost. If autonomous ride sharing is cheap enough (they reckon it can be done cheaper than current subsidised bus fares) then people may be happy to change.
Sorry, but the laws of economics just don’t work like that. It may be technically possible to run an auto-Uber service cheaper than buses, but anyone setting up such a system is going to do it in order to make money and they will charge what the market will bear in order to maximise their return. And if a large part of that market has no choice (because they can’t own an EV), why should they set the charges at a low level ? Aha, you say, there’ll be competition between multiple providers. Whilst you may start off with competition in any particular area, the history of deregulated bus services suggests that the competitors merge or get taken over so you end up with one big provider who basically charges what they want.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on February 20, 2018, 08:56:26 AM
Well clearly I am bucking a trend. From being someone who was in the office 5.5 days a week, I am now able to work from home two to three days a week, which is purely down to the internet and remote working technologies.

My two sons both steadfastly refuse to have cars. The eldest learned to drive and did drive until he moved to London. Now his Jazz is parked on my drive here in Yorkshire and does 5 miles a month. He does not need a car in London.

My younger son is the reason I still keep the Jazz. I have said I will pay for him to learn to drive and his running costs for the car, as it is now a family asset. He is totally not interested as he can get by with buses, rides and taxis here and there.

I really do get that car manufacturers will not agree on a standard interchangeable battery though. That would take regulation and the enforcement of a 'formula' for autonomous self charging city cars.

I guess my real point is that whatever is the right solution for a city, this solution will not work in a rural environment, where journeys may be fewer in number but much greater in duration and complexity.

It seems to me that the real answer is in fuel cells and not batteries. This solution would seem to support urban and non urban vehicle types and journey patterns. It feels that the vehicle manufacturers have gone for batteries because of short term benefits and avoided the heavy continuing research that would inevitably result in a practical fuel cell solution, eventually.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest5079 on February 20, 2018, 09:29:44 AM
Just received a video about a Range Rover Sport  Hybrid and it's completion of what was called impossible. In China is  Tieanmen mountain at the top is the gate to heaven.  It has a road that has 99 bends and then there are 999 steps to climb. Land Rover in their wisdom thought it might do as a publicity thingy but everyone shook their heads. Well after completing the 99 bends on the mountain road it then tackled the 999 steps. It did it. Looking at the video at a guess I would think the steps rise at an angle of 45 degrees. There were safety wires but allegedly did not help. One slip and it would be a case of packing the Range Rover back to UK in a small cardboard box, wouldn't have done the driver much good either.
The video is: http:/www.flixxy.com/range-rover-climbs-999-steps-to-the-gate-of-heaven.html
it is 6mins plus long
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 20, 2018, 10:08:24 AM
Link, as written, doesn't work, but this does.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=39&v=EUwzWHD3Htg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=39&v=EUwzWHD3Htg)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 20, 2018, 10:40:45 AM
Watched the video. That's amazing. Safety wires just there to stop it if it ran back.

In a not too dissimilar vein, here is the Tesla challenge on Pikes Peak.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmWSnvWsV2s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmWSnvWsV2s)
and the actual run.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5t4DNvbNqs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5t4DNvbNqs)

Notice they have the charging ports on the roof!

And the Electric GT racing supposedly starts this year http://www.electricgt.co/ (http://www.electricgt.co/)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on February 20, 2018, 11:33:11 AM
Well clearly I am bucking a trend. From being someone who was in the office 5.5 days a week, I am now able to work from home two to three days a week, which is purely down to the internet and remote working technologies.

My two sons both steadfastly refuse to have cars. The eldest learned to drive and did drive until he moved to London. Now his Jazz is parked on my drive here in Yorkshire and does 5 miles a month. He does not need a car in London.

My younger son is the reason I still keep the Jazz. I have said I will pay for him to learn to drive and his running costs for the car, as it is now a family asset. He is totally not interested as he can get by with buses, rides and taxis here and there.



Very interesting and very relevant. For most of us learning to drive and getting a car was a rite of passage. It still is for some but increasingly less so and the percentage of youngsters learning to drive has fallen sharply. Increasingly they live in an on-line world. Not only that but many would rather spend the money on travel to far distant lands. Many kids today are incredibly well travelled. They also don't have the irrational hang ups many of us have about taxis and prefer to head off into town in a taxi where they can have a drink if so inclined.

On top of that, the model of car ownership is changing. PCP and leasing are growing all the time. My daughter, for example, has turned her back on the responsibilities of ownership and does 2 year leases.

It's these generations that will embrace a new world where car ownership might even be seen as slightly odd.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on February 20, 2018, 11:45:36 AM
Well clearly I am bucking a trend. From being someone who was in the office 5.5 days a week, I am now able to work from home two to three days a week, which is purely down to the internet and remote working technologies.

My two sons both steadfastly refuse to have cars. The eldest learned to drive and did drive until he moved to London. Now his Jazz is parked on my drive here in Yorkshire and does 5 miles a month. He does not need a car in London.

My younger son is the reason I still keep the Jazz. I have said I will pay for him to learn to drive and his running costs for the car, as it is now a family asset. He is totally not interested as he can get by with buses, rides and taxis here and there.



Very interesting and very relevant. For most of us learning to drive and getting a car was a rite of passage. It still is for some but increasingly less so and the percentage of youngsters learning to drive has fallen sharply. Increasingly they live in an on-line world. Not only that but many would rather spend the money on travel to far distant lands. Many kids today are incredibly well travelled. They also don't have the irrational hang ups many of us have about taxis and prefer to head off into town in a taxi where they can have a drink if so inclined.

On top of that, the model of car ownership is changing. PCP and leasing are growing all the time. My daughter, for example, has turned her back on the responsibilities of ownership and does 2 year leases.

It's these generations that will embrace a new world where car ownership might even be seen as slightly odd.

Exactly. We assume everyone will be like us and the truth is, they might not be. And changing factors in car design, parking, leasing, travel requirements, make it really hard to predict what problems vehicles of the future will address.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest5079 on February 21, 2018, 12:21:29 PM
I did wonder if the link would work as it was bounced back from Canada, thank you Jocko for finding one that worked. Still and amazing feat!!!!
As an aside a Tesla passed me on the A30 last Monday in thick fog. Is it battery capacity that meant it has only one rear fog light? I wish I could convert my nearside rear light cluster to accept a rear fog bulb.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest1372 on February 21, 2018, 12:36:16 PM
.... a Tesla passed me on the A30 last Monday in thick fog. Is it battery capacity that meant it has only one rear fog light? I wish I could convert my nearside rear light cluster to accept a rear fog bulb.
A single fog light on the offside is used to prevent confusion with brake lights. Type approval from UNece regs governs it's position, intensity etc.
--
TG
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 21, 2018, 01:54:35 PM
Some cars are fitted with two. My Volvo had one but its siblings, with a better spec, had two. I noticed that all the electrics were there. The actual light cluster has a knock out in place to stop another bulb being fitted so I "knocked it out" and ended up with two.
Actually, having one, to differentiate it from brake lights would be fine - if half the country were not driving round with only one brake light working!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 22, 2018, 09:51:08 AM
I see Tesla's Cloud Computing was hacked.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-43140005 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-43140005)
They went in to use it for currency mining, but they had access to the cars. According to Tesla, it was only the engineering vehicles that they had access to, but you would expect them to say that.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on February 22, 2018, 10:19:17 AM
Autonomous vehicle are going to be interesting when their system is hacked into...(not "if")
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest5079 on February 22, 2018, 05:51:14 PM
I really do have a problem with these people that come up with such ideas as one fog light to stop them being confused with brake lights. The object of rear fog lights is visibility. I can't see how that can be confused with brake lights even if they are the same wattage as the fog lights because if brake lights are applied there will be an increase in brightness. Besides fog lights should only be used in reduced visibilty.
Monday visibility down to between 50/100 metres. Red van passed me NO lights at all on the rear, the idiot was driving on his DRL's.  Red really shows up in fog!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, probably the worst colour. Usual crop of side lights etc.
Another matter taught to me, is wipers. We were taught to use wipers in fog to disperse the moisture off the screen.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest5079 on February 24, 2018, 12:25:40 PM
Last evening on channel 37  Quest, where they have been running a series of How it's made: Dream Cars.
At 6.30 pm I pricked my ears up when I heard Teslar S. So for 30 mins I watched intently.  It appears Teslar make most of it in house BUT what did surprise me was when the commentator said the motor was a 3 phase AC electric motor. Now obviously I am back in the dark ages as I though battery power is DC. Well after the motor was built they then constructed an Inverter to convert to DC. My limited knowledge of inverters was that they consumed energy. They then constructed to drive unit which did not appear much bigger than the rear axle assembly fitted  Jags. E type etc. The battery another surprise was fitted with cooling to stop overheating presumably to permit fast charging. It is a pancake and fits under the floor of the car for access. Car was mostly alloy with steel bulkheads. The commentator claimed it had a range of 300 miles and wasn't very slow in the 0 to 60  stakes.
I can see why they cost what they do.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on February 24, 2018, 02:11:43 PM
Solid state inverters are very, very efficient and an induction motor has benefits that it does not not need a commutator and its associated brushes, which are high wear items. 3 phase induction motors are well proven in industry but without a variable frequency inverter are basically single fixed speed units.

older inverters tended to use square wave instead of sine wave as it is easier to generate but modern electronics are much cleverer and can make shapes approaching a proper sine wave like the one supplied from national grid.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 24, 2018, 02:57:55 PM
We used lots of Variable speed 3Ø motors and they were extremely reliable and exceptionally low maintenance. DC motors, on the other hand, were the bane of our life with hours of maintenance work ever year.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 25, 2018, 08:33:39 AM
This morning my AVG directed me to this article, of especial interest to the EV sceptics.
https://www.the-parallax.com/2017/12/08/car-hacks-enigma-interviews-2/?utm_source=parallax&utm_medium=toaster-infoad&utm_campaign=q12018 (https://www.the-parallax.com/2017/12/08/car-hacks-enigma-interviews-2/?utm_source=parallax&utm_medium=toaster-infoad&utm_campaign=q12018)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 27, 2018, 09:50:59 AM
I see CO2 emissions are up due to the dive in diesel sales and upsurge in SUVs. Sooner we get EVs the better.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43204734 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43204734)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on February 27, 2018, 10:20:11 AM
Today's battery technology is just a step along the way...

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/feb/26/energy-storage-supercapacitors-electric-car-batteries-charging-times
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on February 27, 2018, 10:32:46 AM
Big problem with capacitors of any kind (which store electrons / electricity rather than a chemical reaction) is that as they discharge the terminal voltage drops rapidly, this is unlike a battery where the voltage stays pretty constant until they are almost fully discharged. When talking about batteries and capacitors you have to differentiate between energy and power.

https://www.tecategroup.com/ultracapacitors-supercapacitors/ultracapacitor-FAQ.php

in the section comparing batteries with capacitors these people have used the old trick of making the vertical axis of their 'graph' non linear (in fact it is a logarithmic scale) which makes the 'energy density' of capacitor seem better than it is.

So called 'super-capacitors' are good at delivering a lot of current for a short time.  so can help a battery,  but they are not so good when they get discharged at a longer rate, and capacitors are not good at holding a charge for longer periods,  it just leaks away.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on February 27, 2018, 12:03:39 PM
Even with current technology, it's not difficult to convert a discharge curve from a supercapacitor into steady DC with minimal losses.

The rate of storage technology development is bound to increase, particularly now there's greater appetite for it - necessity is the mother of invention. However, it may take many years for a single, effective technology to emerge.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on February 27, 2018, 12:15:22 PM
Even with current technology, it's not difficult to convert a discharge curve from a supercapacitor into steady DC with minimal losses.

The rate of storage technology development is bound to increase, particularly now there's greater appetite for it - necessity is the mother of invention. However, it may take many years for a single, effective technology to emerge.

If you look at the capacitor manufactures site in link capacitors are great at power storage but absolute crap at energy density - its not easy to get voltage when there isn't any there.  Capacitors in series (they have such a low voltage per capacitor they have to be connected in series to get anything) also have the nasty habit of getting unbalanced charges, to cure this they have to get a resistor connected in parallel to equalise the voltage across each capacitor)  - but that same resistor is a discharge path for the capacitor - this has always been a problem with capacitors.  They are good for regenerative braking (they can absorb a charge very quickly) and good for very short term boosting (they can release a charge very quickly) - but different characteristics to a battery altogether.

More 'tomorrows World' stuff from EV makers,  fingers crossed that something happens lads. If hype could be translated into actual power we would have 500 mile range from a battery / capacitor the size of a matchbox which would charge up in 20 nano-seconds.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on February 27, 2018, 02:11:09 PM
If you look at the capacitor manufactures site in link capacitors are great at power storage but absolute crap at energy density

The teams at Bristol and Surrey Universities reckon the polymer they are developing will be 50% more energy dense than lithium-ion. My point is that after years of slow progress in battery technology, efforts are being made to actively look for new technologies & materials.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 27, 2018, 03:07:40 PM
A quantum leap in technology is a quantum leap, because it is a breakthrough, not just the evolution of a technology. A jump most people were not expecting. Supercapacitors may well be that for energy storage.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest4871 on February 27, 2018, 05:15:12 PM
A quantum leap in technology is a quantum leap, because it is a breakthrough, not just the evolution of a technology. A jump most people were not expecting.

I was reading at the weekend that 30% of the cars in the US were electric until Henry Ford arrived with his Model T.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 27, 2018, 06:17:18 PM
News today from Germany. After a landmark court ruling, cities are going to be allowed to ban older diesels, like London's Toxicity charge. Add to that the fact that Geely has just bought 9.7% of Daimler, the owner of Mercedes Benz. Geely is hugely into EVs and already owns Volvo and London Taxi company.
EVs are going to be big in Germany.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 01, 2018, 07:26:06 AM
I see Dyson are trying to recruit another 300 engineers as it pushes to have an EV by 2020.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43236619 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43236619)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on March 01, 2018, 09:15:36 AM
I see Dyson are trying to recruit another 300 engineers as it pushes to have an EV by 2020.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43236619 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43236619)

Anyone remember Clive Sinclair (Sir) and his C5 - I am getting Deja-vu all over again.......
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 01, 2018, 09:34:13 AM
Anyone remember Clive Sinclair (Sir) and his C5 - I am getting Deja-vu all over again.......
I feel a bit like that myself!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on March 01, 2018, 12:28:33 PM
I have come to the conclusion that research into electric cars is not very imaginative. For me, there should be three streams of work...

1. Power storage and delivery, i.e. batteries, capacitors, fuel cells, hybrids of these
2. Motive power, i.e. the future of motors
3. Car design, i.e. stop thinking about how to fit batteries and motors into existing car shapes designed for engines up front, fuel tanks underneath and drive shafts up the middle. Think imaginatively about how new technology could encourage different designs, and not just bland cubes on wheels.

Dyson is seen as some kind of design guru but he has basically reused age-old centrifuge designs to create cleaners which are filthy to empty and hand driers which blow contaminated air drawn from the public toilets onto your hands at high speeds. I wonder how inventive their car designs will be.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on March 01, 2018, 01:50:20 PM
I have come to the conclusion that research into electric cars is not very imaginative. For me, there should be three streams of work...

1. Power storage and delivery, i.e. batteries, capacitors, fuel cells, hybrids of these
2. Motive power, i.e. the future of motors
3. Car design, i.e. stop thinking about how to fit batteries and motors into existing car shapes designed for engines up front, fuel tanks underneath and drive shafts up the middle. Think imaginatively about how new technology could encourage different designs, and not just bland cubes on wheels.


I wonder if the conservatism in design is a marketing thing? If it looks like a conventional car, an EV might sell better especially to people who might be put off or scared by a radical design? A lot of the advertising seems to stress how easy the transition can be.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 01, 2018, 03:13:03 PM
I have come to the conclusion that research into electric cars is not very imaginative. For me, there should be three streams of work...

1. Power storage and delivery, i.e. batteries, capacitors, fuel cells, hybrids of these
2. Motive power, i.e. the future of motors
3. Car design, i.e. stop thinking about how to fit batteries and motors into existing car shapes designed for engines up front, fuel tanks underneath and drive shafts up the middle. Think imaginatively about how new technology could encourage different designs, and not just bland cubes on wheels.
1. Research along these lines is what is happening at the moment, not only for cars but for other technologies.
2. Electric motors are such mature technology and all the research has been done. At 97% efficiency there is not a great deal to be gained by further research.
3. Pretty much the same goes for cars. What we have now is the result of over 100 years of research. As for EVs, the battery is the heaviest component so physics define it should be as low as possible for stability. A wheel at each corner makes the best ride and driving experience. Electric motors are best fitted to the wheels so that places them. An efficient and aerodynamic shape that can comfortably accommodate the requisite number of passengers is pretty much what we have at present.

What would you want in a body shape?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on March 01, 2018, 03:43:28 PM
Perhaps I should have been clearer. Of course I know that research is happening on power storage and delivery I mean that perhaps car manufacturers are not best placed to lead the research on item 1. as their needs are driven by the desire to reuse existing motor vehicle designs.

So combining 1. and 3. it might make sense to say, have a switchable battery bay allowing on demand electric cars to run 24x7 by returning to a pod switching station. This works against the model of individual car ownership though and is not really in the interest of manufacturers.

As for your comments Jocko on electric motors, maybe the current design of motor is super efficient, but what else could be added to the mix and what about different types of propulsion? Might seem daft but what about rail gun style linear motors adding motive power to compatible vehicles on long hills on motorways, for example. Integrated with on board power and kinetic energy recovery it could make a significant difference to vehicle range.

Why are electric motors best fitted to the wheels? Why not make them the wheels? I have a friend who is a professor at Warwick and they are looking into exactly that.

I think Henry Ford's famous quote on innovation - "If I had asked my customers what they wanted, they would have said 'faster horses'" has been forgotten. I think the car manufacturers are the ones now designing faster horses and somebody else may well come up with the new answer for renewable forms of transport.

And as I said earlier, car manufacturers are looking for the best design of all round vehicle, when what might be needed is a better form of urban transport supplemented by traditional petroleum powered vehicles for extra urban, long distance and specialist uses.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on March 01, 2018, 04:00:55 PM
Perhaps I should have been clearer. Of course I know that research is happening on power storage and delivery I mean that perhaps car manufacturers are not best placed to lead the research on item 1. as their needs are driven by the desire to reuse existing motor vehicle designs.

So combining 1. and 3. it might make sense to say, have a switchable battery bay allowing on demand electric cars to run 24x7 by returning to a pod switching station. This works against the model of individual car ownership though and is not really in the interest of manufacturers.

As for your comments Jocko on electric motors, maybe the current design of motor is super efficient, but what else could be added to the mix and what about different types of propulsion? Might seem daft but what about rail gun style linear motors adding motive power to compatible vehicles on long hills on motorways, for example. Integrated with on board power and kinetic energy recovery it could make a significant difference to vehicle range.

Why are electric motors best fitted to the wheels? Why not make them the wheels? I have a friend who is a professor at Warwick and they are looking into exactly that.

I think Henry Ford's famous quote on innovation - "If I had asked my customers what they wanted, they would have said 'faster horses'" has been forgotten. I think the car manufacturers are the ones now designing faster horses and somebody else may well come up with the new answer for renewable forms of transport.

And as I said earlier, car manufacturers are looking for the best design of all round vehicle, when what might be needed is a better form of urban transport supplemented by traditional petroleum powered vehicles for extra urban, long distance and specialist uses.

Traditional car makers have massive R&D and huge technical and manufacturing capability (ask silicon valley and Tesla - who were 'gonna kick Detroits A55 ! ) - they will come up with the most pragmatic real world solutions that people will want to buy,  they may not be interested in selling mega-expensive specialist vehicles to a few companies like Uber,  they want mass market and economies of scale.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on March 01, 2018, 09:19:21 PM
The folly of using natural gas to generate electricity is now obvious - it was on the news tonight that a few days into a cold snap UK is getting short of gas - the very same gas most people rely on to heat homes and businesses - I did notice on gridwatch yesterday that gas powered electricity was way down from where it usually is, nuclear and coal flat out, solar was loafing again and wind was at about 20% - the highest I have seen it for a while. If the wind drops we could get power outages.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 01, 2018, 09:40:54 PM
Wind could easily be higher than it usually is, but it is easier to shut down a wind turbine than a gas or coal fired station. When the BBC News reported it, earlier in the evening, wind was highest at 27%. At the moment its 25.7%, second to coal at 27.8%
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 02, 2018, 07:15:26 AM
So that is the new Jaguar i-Pace officially available and able to be ordered for July delivery. At £64K for the base model it should limit sales of the Tesla Model S. It is way too pricey for the common man, but there is a huge market for cars in that price range. Seemingly it will be built in Austria! Does that tell you anything?

https://www.jaguar.co.uk/jaguar-range/i-pace/index.html?gclid=Cj0KCQiA5t7UBRDaARIsAOreQtgGH5etSwYvx5kKJZU8vzegvCPiUTeyN-KXruSwN1v165Ej_xsZppQaAlUAEALw_wcB (https://www.jaguar.co.uk/jaguar-range/i-pace/index.html?gclid=Cj0KCQiA5t7UBRDaARIsAOreQtgGH5etSwYvx5kKJZU8vzegvCPiUTeyN-KXruSwN1v165Ej_xsZppQaAlUAEALw_wcB)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on March 02, 2018, 09:08:38 AM
Traditional car makers have massive R&D and huge technical and manufacturing capability (ask silicon valley and Tesla - who were 'gonna kick Detroits A55 ! ) - they will come up with the most pragmatic real world solutions that people will want to buy,  they may not be interested in selling mega-expensive specialist vehicles to a few companies like Uber,  they want mass market and economies of scale.
I think you made my point better than I did. They will force the market down their route, which favours things they find easy to sell, which are not necessarily the best for the environment and sustainability. It's a bit like the huge drug companies who only develop drugs to treat the profitable illnesses.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on March 02, 2018, 09:10:37 AM
So that is the new Jaguar i-Pace officially available and able to be ordered for July delivery. At £64K for the base model it should limit sales of the Tesla Model S. It is way too pricey for the common man, but there is a huge market for cars in that price range. Seemingly it will be built in Austria! Does that tell you anything?

https://www.jaguar.co.uk/jaguar-range/i-pace/index.html?gclid=Cj0KCQiA5t7UBRDaARIsAOreQtgGH5etSwYvx5kKJZU8vzegvCPiUTeyN-KXruSwN1v165Ej_xsZppQaAlUAEALw_wcB (https://www.jaguar.co.uk/jaguar-range/i-pace/index.html?gclid=Cj0KCQiA5t7UBRDaARIsAOreQtgGH5etSwYvx5kKJZU8vzegvCPiUTeyN-KXruSwN1v165Ej_xsZppQaAlUAEALw_wcB)

I wonder who is liable when some pedestrian walking along looking at their phone trips over the kerbside charging cable and gets hurt, perhaps even denting the precious Jaguar? I really don't see a future in kerbside charging.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 02, 2018, 09:43:31 AM
I really don't see a future in kerbside charging.
Wireless charging and Inductive charging is the future for kerbside charging.
This type of thing:
https://www.pluglesspower.com/ (https://www.pluglesspower.com/)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on March 02, 2018, 10:08:58 AM
I think the other thing, alongside induction charging, will be vastly increased range. For example it would be feasible for me to use a rapid charger not far from where I live and, given my mileage, a recharge every 2 or 3 weeks would do me. It's why I decided not to go down the EV route now. The new 40 kwh Leaf will do me fine but it might be a couple of years before they reach my price bracket.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on March 02, 2018, 11:03:38 AM
Traditional car makers have massive R&D and huge technical and manufacturing capability (ask silicon valley and Tesla - who were 'gonna kick Detroits A55 ! ) - they will come up with the most pragmatic real world solutions that people will want to buy,  they may not be interested in selling mega-expensive specialist vehicles to a few companies like Uber,  they want mass market and economies of scale.
I think you made my point better than I did. They will force the market down their route, which favours things they find easy to sell, which are not necessarily the best for the environment and sustainability. It's a bit like the huge drug companies who only develop drugs to treat the profitable illnesses.

Can't blame the drug companies,  they are not charities and will not spend the £Billions it needs to bring new drugs to market if only 100 people in the world suffer from a condition.  Drug companies would rather develop a new indigestion tablet or antihistamine than a drug to cure a rear genetic blood disorder that is so rare a case comes up once a year.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on March 02, 2018, 11:12:07 AM
I really don't see a future in kerbside charging.
Wireless charging and Inductive charging is the future for kerbside charging.
This type of thing:
https://www.pluglesspower.com/ (https://www.pluglesspower.com/)

Air gaps are notoriously inefficient pathways for induction of electricity,  that is why transformers and motors have laminated iron cores.  What happens if poor old Joe Bloggs with his pacemaker walks past the car,  he could well end up as Joe Doe.  We used to have to put large 'no pacemaker' labels on outside of  equipment that was inside an earthed steel cabinet that was inside another earthed steel cabinet due to elf and safety  concerns about stray fields - and the higher the frequency the greater the danger. 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on March 02, 2018, 11:27:45 AM
So that is the new Jaguar i-Pace officially available and able to be ordered for July delivery. At £64K for the base model it should limit sales of the Tesla Model S. It is way too pricey for the common man, but there is a huge market for cars in that price range. Seemingly it will be built in Austria! Does that tell you anything?

https://www.jaguar.co.uk/jaguar-range/i-pace/index.html?gclid=Cj0KCQiA5t7UBRDaARIsAOreQtgGH5etSwYvx5kKJZU8vzegvCPiUTeyN-KXruSwN1v165Ej_xsZppQaAlUAEALw_wcB (https://www.jaguar.co.uk/jaguar-range/i-pace/index.html?gclid=Cj0KCQiA5t7UBRDaARIsAOreQtgGH5etSwYvx5kKJZU8vzegvCPiUTeyN-KXruSwN1v165Ej_xsZppQaAlUAEALw_wcB)

Funny how BEV makers always choose to say things like ' can get to 80% charge in 60 minutes on 50KW charger'  ( the last 20% of the charge will probably take another 2 hours ),  but they expect people to extrapolate that if 80% takes 60 minutes 100% will take another 12 to 15 minutes  :o

The world of automotive makers is probably one of the most global there is, when trade unions were strong car makers used to split production of models between countries in case of labour troubles in one they could carry on in the others.

After that it was realised that people are more likely buy a car if it is made in their country and provided jobs  (except us Brits who are so promiscuous in our buying habits that we don't really care where stuff comes from anymore ).  Honda was really the first Jap company to build a car factory in the USA, they have built more since and they have been rewarded by high brand loyalty from American buyers since. 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on March 02, 2018, 11:38:05 AM
Air gaps are notoriously inefficient pathways for induction of electricity,  that is why transformers and motors have laminated iron cores.  What happens if poor old Joe Bloggs with his pacemaker walks past the car,  he could well end up as Joe Doe.  We used to have to put large 'no pacemaker' labels on outside of  equipment that was inside an earthed steel cabinet that was inside another earthed steel cabinet due to elf and safety  concerns about stray fields - and the higher the frequency the greater the danger.
I get the impression that inductive charging for phones hasn't been a big success when people realised it was quite slow. The induction charging for toothbrushes works because (i) people don't mind it being slow and (ii) it keeps the electrics sealed away from water water and other muck. Even if a vehicle is parked over a charging pad then there will be an airgap of several inches unless a coil on the vehicle drops down to touch the charging pad.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on March 02, 2018, 11:51:48 AM
Agree with culzean on this one, induction charging really is a none starter.

I think you are more likely to see a robotised automatic connection, a bit like an automatic cow milking machine.  ;)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 02, 2018, 01:00:13 PM
Agree with culzean on this one, induction charging really is a none starter.
Maybe, but all the major manufacturers are looking at it. Even the Rolls Royce prototype EV uses Inductive charging. They are also researching inductive charging of moving vehicles!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on March 02, 2018, 01:12:24 PM
Agree with culzean on this one, induction charging really is a none starter.
Maybe, but all the major manufacturers are looking at it. Even the Rolls Royce prototype EV uses Inductive charging. They are also researching inductive charging of moving vehicles!

A lot of these schemes mean big investments and changes to roads, which IMHO will also have to happen before autonomous cars become feasible - these are added costs no one wants to talk about.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on March 02, 2018, 01:16:59 PM
I think you are more likely to see a robotised automatic connection, a bit like an automatic cow milking machine.  ;)

Now there's an idea. We could run a car on milk.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on March 03, 2018, 02:33:57 PM
Read a readers letter in the paper this morning. Imagine being stuck for 24 hours in a snow drift in an EV on low battery. At least with an ICE you can switch it on and off and generate a bit of heat.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on March 05, 2018, 06:35:45 AM
Read a readers letter in the paper this morning. Imagine being stuck for 24 hours in a snow drift in an EV on low battery. At least with an ICE you can switch it on and off and generate a bit of heat.

AND when you are eventually freed, your battery is so low on charge and so cold, your effective range is 500 meters..   Easily solved by mobile charging at £100 per charge (or more)...
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 05, 2018, 06:45:40 AM
At least with an ICE you can switch it on and off and generate a bit of heat.
Unless of course you are one of those clowns who go out, when snow is forecast, with a few cupfuls in the bottom of your tank!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on March 05, 2018, 09:33:53 AM
At least with an ICE you can switch it on and off and generate a bit of heat.
Unless of course you are one of those clowns who go out, when snow is forecast, with a few cupfuls in the bottom of your tank!

Indeed, more than a few of those about!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on March 05, 2018, 10:22:39 AM
At least with an ICE you can switch it on and off and generate a bit of heat.
Unless of course you are one of those clowns who go out, when snow is forecast, with a few cupfuls in the bottom of your tank!

Indeed, more than a few of those about!

The first thing I did when the bad weather was forecast was to go out and top the tanks up on our cars,  they never really get below half empty anyway but extra weight can help traction especially on Jazz and Civic where tank is nearer the front wheels than the back.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on March 05, 2018, 12:35:18 PM
I start to get jittery when the miles to go indicator gets down to below 100. Thinking about that, I guess I really need an EV with 250 miles range. I'd be charging up once it got down to 100!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on March 06, 2018, 10:29:01 AM
Interesting article about supercapacitors http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43285885 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43285885) and their potential role for supplementing the main battery in stop-start driving conditions.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 06, 2018, 11:49:54 AM
Quite a few hypermilers already use super capacitors. Saves on alternator use. Charge them back up like you would a hybrid.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on March 06, 2018, 12:19:02 PM
Something for your next winter Jocko

https://electrek.co/2018/03/03/tesla-inspired-taiga-electric-snowmobile/
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 06, 2018, 01:40:44 PM
Now this is the interesting bit:

"As for the range, the TS2 can travel 100 km (62 miles) on a single charge. Charging can be done in about 2 hours through level 2 charging with an onboard charger and the company says that it will also offer a DC fast-charging option for 80% charge in 20 minutes.
While the range might not seem like much, it’s actually quite impressive when you consider that Taiga claims the vehicle will maintain this range even at -30 Celsius."

My bold italics.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on March 06, 2018, 01:49:59 PM
Now this is the interesting bit:

"As for the range, the TS2 can travel 100 km (62 miles) on a single charge. Charging can be done in about 2 hours through level 2 charging with an onboard charger and the company says that it will also offer a DC fast-charging option for 80% charge in 20 minutes.
While the range might not seem like much, it’s actually quite impressive when you consider that Taiga claims the vehicle will maintain this range even at -30 Celsius."

My bold italics.

Amazing . Does that claim include using the heater? If not, it's just bull excrement as no-one in their right minds would travel at -30C and not use the heater.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on March 06, 2018, 01:52:59 PM
Now this is the interesting bit:

"As for the range, the TS2 can travel 100 km (62 miles) on a single charge. Charging can be done in about 2 hours through level 2 charging with an onboard charger and the company says that it will also offer a DC fast-charging option for 80% charge in 20 minutes.
While the range might not seem like much, it’s actually quite impressive when you consider that Taiga claims the vehicle will maintain this range even at -30 Celsius."

My bold italics.

Amazing . Does that claim include using the heater? If not, it's just bull excrement as no-one in their right minds would travel at -30C and not use the heater.

For those that want heating there is an optional stove that you can tow behind that will burn logs and dried polar bear or reindeer pooh. I guess you would have to take some dogs along as well as a source of propulsion.  I bet any one driving that machine would be dressed up like an Eskimo anyway.

$15,000 is a truly premium price for a snowmobile when you can get them from $5,000 to $10,000. 

Can't even carry spare fuel either, do they provide a mobile wind turbine that you can tow behind as well for emergency charging.  Out in the wild is the last place you want to run out of power,  this vehicle looks like more of an urban fun transport for city tree huggers ( question, do tree huggers know the meaning of fun, discuss ).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 06, 2018, 03:38:01 PM
Amazing . Does that claim include using the heater? If not, it's just bull excrement as no-one in their right minds would travel at -30C and not use the heater.
(https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2018/03/dsc00212-e1520093570531.jpg?quality=82&strip=all)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on March 07, 2018, 11:40:39 AM
Slightly off topic, but this made me chuckle

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/mar/06/california-self-driving-cars-attacked
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 07, 2018, 01:15:09 PM
Looks like there may be a need for petrochemicals when AVs become the norm.

(https://imgsvrcars-a.akamaihd.net/images/2015/11/SACarSecurity/large/flamethrower-anti-hijack.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on March 07, 2018, 03:21:27 PM
That looks like a South African anti-carjacking device,  just hit the big button on the dashboard and 'whhoomphh' - people rarely stopped for red traffic lights in certain areas..... 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 07, 2018, 03:55:54 PM
That looks like a South African anti-carjacking device
That is exactly what it is.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest5079 on March 09, 2018, 09:26:45 AM
I doubt that I shall be able to afford an electric car. By the time they are within the reach of the many, my licence will be revoked due to age!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!( My last eye test, after Christmas showed 20/20 with glasses) Nevertheless as I am a wrinkly some one will perceive me to be a danger.
Now I have had my moan:  This am local TV. A man on Dartmoor has devised a method of powering an electric car by his electrolyte and aluminium. The plan is the batteries will be exchanged rather than charged and a provisional
distance is 1500 miles. He states as aluminium is cheap?? and plentiful it will make the system achievable. Perhaps he hasn't heard Mr Trumps idea of surcharges on aluminium
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 09, 2018, 09:31:48 AM
Is that the same guy who came up with the pills you dissolved in water, for running a petrol engined car?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on March 09, 2018, 01:10:09 PM
I doubt that I shall be able to afford an electric car. By the time they are within the reach of the many, my licence will be revoked due to age!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!( My last eye test, after Christmas showed 20/20 with glasses) Nevertheless as I am a wrinkly some one will perceive me to be a danger.


I might be in the same boat. Paid just under £13,000 for my Jazz and that's comfortably the most I've ever paid for a car. It's going to be quite a few years before the higher range EVs (apart from the Zoe which I don't like) get into my price bracket. I'm a bit sad because the Nissan Leaf is a great drive especially in the urban environment.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 09, 2018, 02:14:20 PM
I am hoping, sometime shortly, to make my final ever car purchase. All things going to plan it will be a new Nissan Leaf (unless an EV that is better and cheaper comes along). That is my current view of the future.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on March 09, 2018, 05:19:12 PM
I've driven the outgoing Leaf but not the new one. I have seen the new one at our local Nissan dealers and was very impressed with fit and finish, comfort and everything else. A genuine 150 miles and much better acceleration. The old Leaf was very quick off the lights. I think this new one will see off most boy racers (up to 40 anyway) if that's your thing.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on March 09, 2018, 06:00:21 PM
I think this new one will see off most boy racers (up to 40 anyway)

Is that 40mph, or 40 years old?  ;D
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on March 09, 2018, 10:56:04 PM
I think this new one will see off most boy racers (up to 40 anyway)

Is that 40mph, or 40 years old?  ;D

40 miles! Ha ha.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest5079 on March 10, 2018, 11:11:36 AM
I have no idea whether or not it is the same person who invented a pill to add to water.
It was reported on Breakfast BBC local news and whilst he was talking behind him was a drinks can two wires and a small fan.
One can only be a cynic about so much. I am not a chemist BUT given what can be done with chemicals these days, I feel we have to have a certain amount of trust.
Whilst on the subject of chemicals and what they can do Salisbury!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on March 10, 2018, 10:34:02 PM
Said to be arriving next year from Honda https://www.theverge.com/2018/3/6/17084606/honda-urban-ev-concept-geneva-motor-show-2018 (https://www.theverge.com/2018/3/6/17084606/honda-urban-ev-concept-geneva-motor-show-2018).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 11, 2018, 09:30:43 AM
That's the one I posted the pictures of, back in January, when "Fully Charged" did their piece on it. Doesn't float my boat looks wise.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: RichardA on March 15, 2018, 08:45:47 PM
Love the new Jaguar i-Pace, looks fantastic and the tech sounds really promising:

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 15, 2018, 09:03:08 PM
Love the new Jaguar i-Pace, looks fantastic and the tech sounds really promising:
If I had the money, that's the one I'd have. Kicks the Tesla Model X into touch.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 16, 2018, 12:47:40 PM
Porsche have released a press statement saying they are investing €6bn  in "electrification" by 2022.

Porsche is also doubling its expenditure on trends for the future, with a commitment to
invest over six billion euro in electromobility by 2022. The money will be spent on
derivatives of the Mission E, hybridisation and electrification of the current model
range, as well as on developing a charging infrastructure and smart mobility.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 18, 2018, 09:38:35 AM
The latest edition of "Fully Charged" was, among other things, talking about the installation off 350 kW charging stations. Initially 400 charging stations are being installed across Europe (there is one at South Minns Service Station) and these can charge a vehicle from 0 - 80% in 15 minutes. It uses a CCS connector. This is the system that Porsche are talking about in the previous post.
They had spoken to spokesman for the National Grid who says their system can cope perfectly adequately with these systems. The charging station has a 1 MW underground battery pack, which is constantly trickle charged, and when a vehicle charges from it it dumps what is required in the 15 - 20 minutes.
Found this bit on the type of charger we are talking about.
https://nextgencharging.com/?gclid=CjwKCAjwnLjVBRAdEiwAKSGPIxPWmRFgoHRnF-FpZJfKlPo4-aGHpa58uk6Cwk_zD6A-RaTzIKlTCRoC2TAQAvD_BwE (https://nextgencharging.com/?gclid=CjwKCAjwnLjVBRAdEiwAKSGPIxPWmRFgoHRnF-FpZJfKlPo4-aGHpa58uk6Cwk_zD6A-RaTzIKlTCRoC2TAQAvD_BwE)


Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on March 18, 2018, 12:40:53 PM
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-03-16/how-long-will-world-leaders-last

'More hype than sales'  seems to cover it,  people buy PHEV for tax reasons,  but no big interest in BEV.

'Tesla is a cult' also rings true.

The only thing that will get people interested in pure EV is legislation,  not fuel economy or saving the planet.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 18, 2018, 01:07:49 PM
The only thing that will get people interested in pure EV is legislation
No. Cost will get people flocking to BEV. Once it becomes cheaper to buy and run pure EVs the consumers will flock to change over. The same thing happened with mobile phones. My first mobile phone was expensive to buy, expensive to run, and the infrastructure was poor. At the time the consensus was, "they will never take off". Now you cannot go anywhere in the world without the common people using their mobile phones. Landlines are old hat and becoming more so. Just as ICE will.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on March 18, 2018, 03:24:11 PM
The only thing that will get people interested in pure EV is legislation
No. Cost will get people flocking to BEV. Once it becomes cheaper to buy and run pure EVs the consumers will flock to change over. The same thing happened with mobile phones. My first mobile phone was expensive to buy, expensive to run, and the infrastructure was poor. At the time the consensus was, "they will never take off". Now you cannot go anywhere in the world without the common people using their mobile phones. Landlines are old hat and becoming more so. Just as ICE will.

comparing a car to a phone is like comparing, well an apple to an orange...

No-one passed legislation that you could not have a landline after a certain date and if you did not buy a cell phone it meant that you could no longer have a phone....

Congestion charge will persuade some city dwellers / commuters to buy BEV.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on March 18, 2018, 05:21:58 PM
This one is for Culzean - "Is Tesla a cult?" by Aussie motoring journalist John Cadogan.

Cadogan believes 100% in man made climate change but EVs not the answer. Indeed he thinks they are worse for the environment. Not saying I agree with him but it's a thought provoking watch.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 18, 2018, 06:33:01 PM
No-one passed legislation that you could not have a landline after a certain date and if you did not buy a cell phone it meant that you could no longer have a phone....
So what you are saying is the UK won't change over to EVs until 2040. I doubt I'll be here to see it, but I bet that ICE vehicles will be in the minority before 2030.

Regarding your argument regarding cell phones, by your reckoning they should have taken even longer to take over as there was no legislation driving the change!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on March 18, 2018, 07:29:30 PM
No-one passed legislation that you could not have a landline after a certain date and if you did not buy a cell phone it meant that you could no longer have a phone....
So what you are saying is the UK won't change over to EVs until 2040. I doubt I'll be here to see it, but I bet that ICE vehicles will be in the minority before 2030.

Regarding your argument regarding cell phones, by your reckoning they should have taken even longer to take over as there was no legislation driving the change!

Of course cell phones would get popular and everyone would want one, simply because of their convenience - I had a company Motorola clamshell style phone in Australia in early 90's - one of the first that was not the size of a housebrick, and have not been without one since, but for myself and majority of people I talk to there is no big rush to get a battery EV.   A mobile phone was unique, a BEV is not because there are many other ways of getting around. Many business users get PHEV in preference to BEV and by their own admissions never charge the battery, they just get them for tax and congestion charge purposes which saves them more than lower fuel costs.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 18, 2018, 09:39:30 PM
Yes, but when they are cheaper to buy, and run than a conventional car, which will happen, we will all want one. Even you. And that will happen long before ICE is phased out here in the UK, in 2040.
Even India has set a date of 2030 to phase out ICE.
I think that by 2030 you would be hard pressed to by a new conventional car, even if you wanted one.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on March 18, 2018, 10:18:07 PM
I thought 2040 was the deadline for ICE-only? The market share of battery-only will steadily increase as costs come down and range increases but many people will still want the unlimited range provided by a hybrid arrangement. I was disappointed by my Jazz hybrid as it provided only around 10% improvement in fuel economy compared to the normal Mk 2 Jazz but 20% improvement should be easy to achieve by combining an Atkinson cycle engine with a more battery and motor generator capacity (some manufacturers have got here already). Providing the capability for mains top-up of the battery will help reduce emissions a bit further although, as noted above, many vehicle users might not be inclined/able to use the facility. However, I don't want a very big battery as I want somewhere to put the spare wheel (something that the Mk 2 Jazz hybrid lacked).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on March 18, 2018, 10:35:39 PM
The only thing that will get people interested in pure EV is legislation
No. Cost will get people flocking to BEV. Once it becomes cheaper to buy and run pure EVs the consumers will flock to change over. The same thing happened with mobile phones. My first mobile phone was expensive to buy, expensive to run, and the infrastructure was poor. At the time the consensus was, "they will never take off". Now you cannot go anywhere in the world without the common people using their mobile phones. Landlines are old hat and becoming more so. Just as ICE will.

I think there will be a tipping point - we are not there yet - but it will come. My concern is that the demand for lithium ion batteries, and their solid state successors, might delay prices coming down.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 19, 2018, 06:54:08 AM
I thought 2040 was the deadline for ICE-only?
Correct. Range is an issue for pure EV at the moment, but by 2040 changes in battery technology and charging will pretty much put an EV on par with fossil fuel powered vehicles. As demand for fossil fuels drops, and it will, costs of fossil fuels will rise. I know electricity prices will rise too, but once the crossover point is reached, where the cost of buying and running a pure EV is less than that of ICE and Hybrid vehicles, there will be no stopping the change. And as you said yourself, you are disappointed with the fuel economy with your hybrid. I think hybrids will gradually be replaced with range extender EVs, and by 2040 those and pure EV will have cornered the market. The big motor manufacturers are not investing billions in EV technology for the good of the planet. They can see the writing on the wall for fossil fuels, as can Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on March 19, 2018, 08:04:08 AM
... once the crossover point is reached, where the cost of buying and running a pure EV is less than that of ICE and Hybrid vehicles, there will be no stopping the change.
Arguments based simply on cost of BEV vs ICE ignore quite a significant elephant in the room, which is the convenience of ICEs. If Joe Public was genuinely only concerned with cost, then he wouldn’t want or need to own a car at all. But he’s prepared to pay the premium to own one simply because of the freedom to travel and the convenience that it brings. But BEVs are impossibly inconvenient for the large part of the motoring population that doesn’t (and never will) have easy access to convenient charging facilities. We might get some enlightened councils installing a few token on-street charging points, or a few auto-Uber networks in some urban areas, but those will barely scratch the surface of the problem. Pure BEVs are simply inconvenient, and none of the proposals currently on the horizon will fix that.
(BTW I’m not anti-BEV, I really would like to own one because it would suit my driving pattern, but it’s simply not practical)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 19, 2018, 08:28:17 AM
but it’s simply not practical
And at the moment, I agree. But a lot will happen in the next 20 years to change that. I can envisage being able to go to a charging station and fill up in 5-10 minutes, to give you 400 miles range. Call me overly optimistic if you like, I prefer to think of myself as far-sighted.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 19, 2018, 08:30:43 AM
Honda themselves seem to have a view similar to my own.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 19, 2018, 08:41:50 AM
And this video I posted previously.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on March 19, 2018, 08:44:56 AM
but it’s simply not practical
And at the moment, I agree. But a lot will happen in the next 20 years to change that. I can envisage being able to go to a charging station and fill up in 5-10 minutes, to give you 400 miles range. Call me overly optimistic if you like, I prefer to think of myself as far-sighted.

No, I think that's got to come.

We are already happy to spend 5 minutes, or sometimes longer, filling up with petrol and standing in a queue to pay for it, and we are already using 30 minute rapid chargers for EVs. At the moment, they encourage you to go and have a coffee, but 20 minute charge battery systems are in the pipeline, and it's inevitable that further progress will be made in this area.

There may well even be a leap of technology that solves this problem altogether.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on March 19, 2018, 09:47:08 AM
Sorry guys, none of these comments really tackle the convenience issue I'm trying to get across.

15-20 minutes charging time ? Well, it's certainly better than exists at present, but is still easily 4-5 times slower, and gives less range, than an ICE. That's just 3 or 4 cars per hour per charge point, vs however many a fuel pump can cope with (10 ? 15 ?). And everyone has to be altruistic enough to move their vehicle off the charging point when it's full, which seems unlikely given the kind of behaviours you see today.

The Fully-Charged video, whilst interesting, doesn't even recognise "Lack of convenience" as an obstacle to EV take-up, never mind propose a solution.

At the moment, it all looks a bit like the cartoon ...
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on March 19, 2018, 09:55:29 AM
Anyone who seriously believes fossil fuels are dead for production of energy did not watch Grid Stats for the past two weeks. EVERY stand by generator connected top the grid was flat out as well the coal and nuclear stations.
 http://gridwatch.co.uk/

There was minimal solar power and wind did not work well due to high winds...  Renewables work when the conditions are right. Cold freezing winter days with no sun and high winds are when your need most power: and renewables don't work. And when people go on about renewables providing more than 50% of power in summer, it's pure propaganda for the ignorant masses.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on March 19, 2018, 10:14:46 AM
Anyone who seriously believes fossil fuels are dead for production of energy did not watch Grid Stats for the past two weeks. EVERY stand by generator connected top the grid was flat out as well the coal and nuclear stations.
 http://gridwatch.co.uk/

There was minimal solar power and wind did not work well due to high winds...  Renewables work when the conditions are right. Cold freezing winter days with no sun and high winds are when your need most power: and renewables don't work. And when people go on about renewables providing more than 50% of power in summer, it's pure propaganda for the ignorant masses.

+1

Renewables may work in summer when we do not need the power LOL

What worries me (mainly about the mindset of the people who decided it), is that we are using valuable gas to back up renewables,  gas can be burnt to provide heat in a domestic boiler at over 90% efficiency,  when you use it to generate electricity and use that to provide heat it is no-where near as efficient,  we nearly ran out of gas in cold spell before christmas.

Everyone should know that renewables are unreliable and need 100% backup from other sources.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 19, 2018, 10:19:15 AM
There was minimal solar power and wind did not work well due to high winds.
So how come. last week, when the Beast from the East was upon us, wind power was up there at the top most of the time? Having said that, I did not suggest fossil fuels was dead for production of energy, just won't be up there for powering automobiles.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on March 19, 2018, 10:28:50 AM
Here's another supercapacitor technology trying to emerge from the research stage http://www.rolls-royce.com/media/press-releases/yr-2018/19-03-2018-rr-links-up-with-uk-based-superdielectrics.aspx (http://www.rolls-royce.com/media/press-releases/yr-2018/19-03-2018-rr-links-up-with-uk-based-superdielectrics.aspx). If that can give me at least a couple of hundred miles and no more than 10 minutes to top up then I can think electric. After all, my Austin A35 struggled to manage 200 miles between refills.

As for reliable renewable energy during the winter half of the year, we have got to either think of tidal / wave energy or doing some serious hydropower development with those who want renewable power and don't want new storage reservoirs told to get back in their box.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on March 19, 2018, 10:33:05 AM
but it’s simply not practical
And at the moment, I agree. But a lot will happen in the next 20 years to change that. I can envisage being able to go to a charging station and fill up in 5-10 minutes, to give you 400 miles range. Call me overly optimistic if you like, I prefer to think of myself as far-sighted.

No, I think that's got to come.

We are already happy to spend 5 minutes, or sometimes longer, filling up with petrol and standing in a queue to pay for it, and we are already using 30 minute rapid chargers for EVs. At the moment, they encourage you to go and have a coffee, but 20 minute charge battery systems are in the pipeline, and it's inevitable that further progress will be made in this area.

There may well even be a leap of technology that solves this problem altogether.

So you are saying there will not be a queue to use chargers - a bit of wishful thinking here I suspect.  I have already seen ICE cars parking in battery charging bays locally as well - but it is understandable as they are not used for charging,  I did notice cobwebs around the charging plugs.

We have just been on a whizz around Anglesey and North wales,  best part of 400 miles and didn't have to worry about filling up, in an EV my range anxiety would have been working overtime on those cold, wet mountainous roads.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on March 19, 2018, 11:42:24 AM
15-20 minutes charging time ? Well, it's certainly better than exists at present, but is still easily 4-5 times slower, and gives less range, than an ICE. That's just 3 or 4 cars per hour per charge point, vs however many a fuel pump can cope with (10 ? 15 ?).

I think everyone appreciates that 15-20 minute charging is not going to replace petrol/diesel refuelling, but that's where we are now. My point is that looking at the progress that has been made in this area, we are not so far away from the charging times required.

Furthermore, I don't think the cars per pump argument is really valid. My usual place to refill is a smallish Morrison's petrol station on a plot remote to the store, because it's convenient for me. There are 8 pumps in total, 4 of which are 'pay at pump'. If the site was levelled and replaced with a parking arrangement similar to a supermarket car park, each with it's own charging point and payment device, I would think you could fit in 20 spaces. That said, there are still major obstacles to be addressed - how you would get the amount of energy required to that point is another matter entirely.

So you are saying there will not be a queue to use chargers - a bit of wishful thinking here I suspect.

The other thing to bear in mind is that few people can currently refill their cars with petrol at home, so the demand for charging points should, in theory, be less with EVs - and significantly less outside of city areas. I certainly wouldn't need to use a public recharging point for daily use, it's very rare indeed that I travel further than the range covered by the newest generation of EVs... in fact a first generation Leaf would probably be fine for 90+% of my motoring miles.

We have just been on a whizz around Anglesey and North wales,  best part of 400 miles and didn't have to worry about filling up, in an EV my range anxiety would have been working overtime on those cold, wet mountainous roads.

Again, this is about how things are now. The EV market is still in its infancy, and until there is significant take up, infrastructure will not be developed to accommodate vehicles which do not exist.

Incidentally, a quick look on zapmap shows that even in Anglesey and North Wales, there is reasonable coverage of fast and rapid charging points, so with a bit of planning, or perhaps the app on your 'phone, nobody should need to be completely stuck.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on March 19, 2018, 12:57:50 PM
Sorry guys, none of these comments really tackle the convenience issue I'm trying to get across.

15-20 minutes charging time ? Well, it's certainly better than exists at present, but is still easily 4-5 times slower, and gives less range, than an ICE. That's just 3 or 4 cars per hour per charge point, vs however many a fuel pump can cope with (10 ? 15 ?). And everyone has to be altruistic enough to move their vehicle off the charging point when it's full, which seems unlikely given the kind of behaviours you see today.

The Fully-Charged video, whilst interesting, doesn't even recognise "Lack of convenience" as an obstacle to EV take-up, never mind propose a solution.

At the moment, it all looks a bit like the cartoon ...

I'm interested in EVs - I'd like one if the price and everything else is right but Colin makes a very good point here. There is, amongst the EV community, a tendency to make light of the convenience issues. One guy I follow on YouTube made the classic EV Evangelist comment on one of his recent videos - words to the effect of "One thing I love about EVs is not having the inconvenience of having to go to the petrol station - I just plug in at night and then I know I have enough range for the next day." Later, in the same video, he can't get a charger to work and is on the phone to the provider. In another video, he drives from Dorset to Manchester and the journey back is a bit of a nightmare. At one point his wife hisses "I'm getting seriously pissed off!"

I had an "inconvenient" trip to the petrol station this morning. Pulled up - chose pay at pump - 5 mins later I'm pulling out of the station with 396 miles to next fuel up showing. No stupid and pointless Apps - just my debit card.

This is where the "cult" accusation gains traction. It's an unwillingness, by some, to face up to the fact that EVs are often inconvenient. They must be because the chap in question has an ICE car as back up!!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on March 19, 2018, 01:12:06 PM
Here's another supercapacitor technology trying to emerge from the research stage http://www.rolls-royce.com/media/press-releases/yr-2018/19-03-2018-rr-links-up-with-uk-based-superdielectrics.aspx (http://www.rolls-royce.com/media/press-releases/yr-2018/19-03-2018-rr-links-up-with-uk-based-superdielectrics.aspx). If that can give me at least a couple of hundred miles and no more than 10 minutes to top up then I can think electric. After all, my Austin A35 struggled to manage 200 miles between refills.

As for reliable renewable energy during the winter half of the year, we have got to either think of tidal / wave energy or doing some serious hydropower development with those who want renewable power and don't want new storage reservoirs told to get back in their box.

https://www.tecategroup.com/ultracapacitors-supercapacitors/ultracapacitor-FAQ.php

Even the best ultracapacitors at the moment have energy density (Wh/kg) of around 1/10th of even a lead acid battery.  They are good for absorbing and releasing short pulses of energy but because they store an electrical charge rather than a chemical reaction their energy density is cr4p.    They may make a useful addition to a battery as a storage for regenerated power but as a power storage medium on their own they are not suitable for electric vehicles,  and I don't think the basic physics of storing an electrical charge directly is going to change magically with all the new dielectric materials being proposed.   Bear in mind that the energy storage of capacitors is made to look better in the graphs on website in link because graphs are on a logarithmic (base 10) scale.   
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on March 19, 2018, 01:18:15 PM
This is where the "cult" accusation gains traction. It's an unwillingness, by some, to face up to the fact that EVs are often inconvenient. They must be because the chap in question has an ICE car as back up!!

Just like renewables need conventional fuel generation to back them up, BEV need an ICE vehicle, there is a pattern emerging here.......
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on March 19, 2018, 01:57:52 PM
Furthermore, I don't think the cars per pump argument is really valid. My usual place to refill is a smallish Morrison's petrol station on a plot remote to the store, because it's convenient for me. There are 8 pumps in total, 4 of which are 'pay at pump'. If the site was levelled and replaced with a parking arrangement similar to a supermarket car park, each with it's own charging point and payment device, I would think you could fit in 20 spaces.
Let's look at that. 8 pumps at a filling station, let's say 5 minutes to fill up, that's 96 fill-ups per hour giving each car a range of (say) 300-400 miles. Replace that with 20 charging points, let's say 15 minutes per car, that's 80 "fill-ups" per hour: that's 17% poorer throughput. Moreover, range per fill-up is going to be less (depending on which crystal ball you're looking in) so cars will have to return more frequently. That will drive demand for more capacity, not less as will result from this plan: 'nuff said.

The other thing to bear in mind is that few people can currently refill their cars with petrol at home, so the demand for charging points should, in theory, be less with EVs - and significantly less outside of city areas. I certainly wouldn't need to use a public recharging point for daily use, it's very rare indeed that I travel further than the range covered by the newest generation of EVs... in fact a first generation Leaf would probably be fine for 90+% of my motoring miles.
My point is not about those people fortunate enough to have off-road parking and able to install their own charging points. I'm referring to the (roughly) 1/3 of the motoring population who live in urban areas, in terraced houses, flats, or other accommodation without dedicated parking. If these folks are to be converted to EVs, they need access to convenient charging facilities and there is simply no plan for that at present.

Like you, I could probably get by with a Leaf, but I couldn't contemplate one because I have nowhere to charge it, plus I really don't like the idea of it not necessarily being "ready to go" when I need it without first having queued at a charge point for X hours. That's a bit of a bummer when the school's just closed because of the weather, or elderly parent has just been admitted to hospital, or any other scenario in which Joe Public currently has instant transport but may not in future.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on March 19, 2018, 02:35:50 PM
Let's look at that. 8 pumps at a filling station, let's say 5 minutes to fill up, that's 96 fill-ups per hour giving each car a range of (say) 300-400 miles. Replace that with 20 charging points, let's say 15 minutes per car, that's 80 "fill-ups" per hour: that's 17% poorer throughput. Moreover, range per fill-up is going to be less (depending on which crystal ball you're looking in) so cars will have to return more frequently. That will drive demand for more capacity, not less as will result from this plan: 'nuff said.

My point is not about those people fortunate enough to have off-road parking and able to install their own charging points. I'm referring to the (roughly) 1/3 of the motoring population who live in urban areas, in terraced houses, flats, or other accommodation without dedicated parking. If these folks are to be converted to EVs, they need access to convenient charging facilities and there is simply no plan for that at present.

Like you, I could probably get by with a Leaf, but I couldn't contemplate one because I have nowhere to charge it, plus I really don't like the idea of it not necessarily being "ready to go" when I need it without first having queued at a charge point for X hours. That's a bit of a bummer when the school's just closed because of the weather, or elderly parent has just been admitted to hospital, or any other scenario in which Joe Public currently has instant transport but may not in future.

20 chargers of 350Kw charging 80cars and hour is also 28MWh of power required (or 7MW of instantaneous power, sustainable  for 15 minutes).    The 'trickle charge a 1MWh battery from the local power and it reduces demand' only works when charging points are not frequently used,  the 1MWh battery often quoted would be flat in 2  minutes if all chargers in use, then you would have to reduce charging to the trickle that the local power cables could provide. 

There is mooted a system to use BEV batteries as mass storage for the grid, you tell them when you need the car and they take power from your battery to top up the grid,  and hopefully put it back before you are 'scheduled' to need the car, would be a PITA if you needed an 'unscheduled' use of the car.   A bit like 'we are going to drain the fuel tank of your ICE vehicle to borrow the power,  but don't worry we will put the fuel back in before you are 'scheduled' to use it again' - we have had more than a few power cuts in our area recently, just have to hope power is on long enough to put a few miles in the battery.

As you say, people are not addressing the convenience aspect of BEV hardly at all,  the cult people of the 'brave new BEV world' are putting up with all sorts of inconvenience and hoops to run their cars, some will admit it,  but most will not. 

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on March 19, 2018, 03:35:14 PM
I could get by with a 24 kwh Nissan Leaf most of the time. I could even get by with a long distance holiday in the UK by hiring an ICE car but it's those other issues.

1) I have off road parking but the current configuration of the property entails a trip hazard.
2) I will not compromise on comfort. The heating must be on and air con when required.
3) I am not a fast driver these days but I would not want to crawl along the motorway at 50 mph.
4) I do, about 5 times a year, journeys of over 100 miles into "charge deserts" - and there are many such deserts. Check out much of Yorkshire, most of Wales and nearly all of the Peak District.

If I had 2 cars, I'd have a Leaf. If I have only an EV it needs to be in the "no compromise" 200 mile range for me AND they need to be much much cheaper. We need an EV for Ford Fiesta money with 200 genuine mile range for mass adoption to ensue. When/if we get there, the tipping point will have arrived but I don't see much sign of it yet.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on March 19, 2018, 03:44:10 PM
Just following on from the Ford Fiesta money argument I was making above. The new Leaf is a pretty capable car and very well equipped. Loads of tech including Pro Pilot.

Why don't Nissan put a battery in the Micra and flog it for, say, £16,000? Cut back on some of the tech.

I may be being cynical here but are manufacturers trying to keep EVs in a niche? If you check out some of the stories behind people trying to get hold of the VW "E" Golf, you'll find that you get little encouragement from the dealer network and very low production numbers to keep supply scarce.

I suspect the industry doesn't want mass adoption yet.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 19, 2018, 04:02:42 PM
I suspect the industry doesn't want mass adoption yet.
The car industry certainly does not want mass adoption yet. They want to phase it in as older models are phased out. As we have discussed elsewhere on this thread, electrification of an existing model is not a great way to go. The car makers want to start from scratch with their EVs, as Nissan did with the Leaf. I bet when the replacement for the Micra comes out, it is an EV first and foremost.
Regarding the charging network, it is in its infancy at the moment. When they start building charging stations, with 20 350 kW bays, they will be connected to the grid by suitable cabling to satisfy their need. It may be that they will have underground storage for 50 of the 1 MW battery packs. New supermarkets may install battery packs under their car parks, with charging points that cover every bay. They may install PV arrays in their roofs, to supplement the supply. As the say, "Necessity is the mother of invention".
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on March 19, 2018, 04:30:52 PM
Let's look at that. 8 pumps at a filling station, let's say 5 minutes to fill up, that's 96 fill-ups per hour giving each car a range of (say) 300-400 miles. Replace that with 20 charging points, let's say 15 minutes per car, that's 80 "fill-ups" per hour: that's 17% poorer throughput. Moreover, range per fill-up is going to be less (depending on which crystal ball you're looking in) so cars will have to return more frequently. That will drive demand for more capacity, not less as will result from this plan: 'nuff said.

My point is not about those people fortunate enough to have off-road parking and able to install their own charging points. I'm referring to the (roughly) 1/3 of the motoring population who live in urban areas, in terraced houses, flats, or other accommodation without dedicated parking. If these folks are to be converted to EVs, they need access to convenient charging facilities and there is simply no plan for that at present.

Like you, I could probably get by with a Leaf, but I couldn't contemplate one because I have nowhere to charge it, plus I really don't like the idea of it not necessarily being "ready to go" when I need it without first having queued at a charge point for X hours. That's a bit of a bummer when the school's just closed because of the weather, or elderly parent has just been admitted to hospital, or any other scenario in which Joe Public currently has instant transport but may not in future.

20 chargers of 350Kw charging 80cars and hour is also 28MWh of power required (or 7MW of instantaneous power, sustainable  for 15 minutes).    The 'trickle charge a 1MWh battery from the local power and it reduces demand' only works when charging points are not frequently used,  the 1MWh battery often quoted would be flat in 2  minutes if all chargers in use, then you would have to reduce charging to the trickle that the local power cables could provide. 

There is mooted a system to use BEV batteries as mass storage for the grid, you tell them when you need the car and they take power from your battery to top up the grid,  and hopefully put it back before you are 'scheduled' to need the car, would be a PITA if you needed an 'unscheduled' use of the car.   A bit like 'we are going to drain the fuel tank of your ICE vehicle to borrow the power,  but don't worry we will put the fuel back in before you are 'scheduled' to use it again' - we have had more than a few power cuts in our area recently, just have to hope power is on long enough to put a few miles in the battery.

As you say, people are not addressing the convenience aspect of BEV hardly at all,  the cult people of the 'brave new BEV world' are putting up with all sorts of inconvenience and hoops to run their cars, some will admit it,  but most will not.

That system of using EVs as a storage network for the grid will never work unless:
1. there is an incentive for the owners to connect up their car when they get home, tell it when they need it next and suffer potential car outage.

Hassle without return will lead to saying " we need the car everyday "...
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on March 19, 2018, 04:40:52 PM
I suspect the industry doesn't want mass adoption yet.
The car industry certainly does not want mass adoption yet. They want to phase it in as older models are phased out. As we have discussed elsewhere on this thread, electrification of an existing model is not a great way to go. The car makers want to start from scratch with their EVs, as Nissan did with the Leaf. I bet when the replacement for the Micra comes out, it is an EV first and foremost.
Regarding the charging network, it is in its infancy at the moment. When they start building charging stations, with 20 350 kW bays, they will be connected to the grid by suitable cabling to satisfy their need. It may be that they will have underground storage for 50 of the 1 MW battery packs. New supermarkets may install battery packs under their car parks, with charging points that cover every bay. They may install PV arrays in their roofs, to supplement the supply. As the say, "Necessity is the mother of invention".

We are talking a lot of capital investment there with 50 x 1MWh batteries and charge points,  plus the cabling to get grid power to the site, who is going to pay for it ?  Even with a cost of Li-Ion batteries of £100 KWh (which is not available yet)  it is still £5 million for batteries alone.  Will people still expect to get power for the same price they get it from their meter at home ?  People are not going to be happy when the cost of charging their car approaches the cost of filling an ICE car with fuel. 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 19, 2018, 04:47:08 PM
That system of using EVs as a storage network for the grid will never work unless:
1. there is an incentive for the owners to connect up their car when they get home, tell it when they need it next and suffer potential car outage.

Hassle without return will lead to saying " we need the car everyday "...
The idea of this seems to be that you come home from work, allow the grid to use what energy you have left in the car, getting paid peak evening rates, then at night you recharge it at the low rate.
Or what you do is run your own home on the energy you have stored in the car and recharge overnight. Either way it takes some of the peak load of the grid's generating capacity. Either way you need manage the charge to leave you enough for emergencies.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 19, 2018, 04:54:09 PM
We are talking a lot of capital investment there with 50 x 1MW batteries and charge points,  plus the cabling to get grid power to the site, who is going to pay for it ?  Will people still expect to get power for the same price they get it from their meter at home ?  People are not going to be happy when the cost of charging their car approaches the cost of filling an ICE car with fuel.
Huge investment will be required, just as huge investment is currently required for a large supermarket filling station. Those who stand to gain from it will pay for it. Private equity funds, big business, Russian Mafia, anyone who is looking to invest money for a good return. I would be happy to pay 80% of the cost of petrol to charge my car at work, supermarket, or multi storey car park. People drive miles to save 2 or 3 pence per litre!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on March 19, 2018, 06:58:53 PM
Let's look at that. 8 pumps at a filling station, let's say 5 minutes to fill up, that's 96 fill-ups per hour giving each car a range of (say) 300-400 miles. Replace that with 20 charging points, let's say 15 minutes per car, that's 80 "fill-ups" per hour: that's 17% poorer throughput.

That, and many of the other arguments against EVs, completely ignore my point earlier that the technology and infrastructure are both in their infancy, and that further progress will be required. I did say that -

I think everyone appreciates that 15-20 minute charging is not going to replace petrol/diesel refuelling, but that's where we are now. My point is that looking at the progress that has been made in this area, we are not so far away from the charging times required.


My point is not about those people fortunate enough to have off-road parking and able to install their own charging points. I'm referring to the (roughly) 1/3 of the motoring population who live in urban areas, in terraced houses, flats, or other accommodation without dedicated parking.

If 1/3 of the motoring population had nowhere to fit a home charging point, then the other 2/3 could feasibly fit one. If half of these people didn't need to use the public charging points, then even your 17% reduction in throughput could be easily accommodated.

Of course all these figures are hypothetical back-of-a-fag-packet calculations, but all I am saying is that advances will make things possible which are not today. It will remain a niche market for years yet, but EVs are coming, make no mistake.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on March 19, 2018, 07:57:35 PM
... the technology and infrastructure are both in their infancy, and that further progress will be required...
... I am saying ... that advances will make things possible which are not today....
Amen to that, and I don't disagree. The problem for me is that I can see the various incremental improvements that are currently anticipated, but (in my personal view) those aren't enough. What I can't see are realistic and practical routes towards the quantum changes that will have to happen in the engineering, the infrastructure, and the culture  in order to allow EVs to approach the convenience and user-friendliness of today's ICE cars. Those developments may appear on Powerpoint slides but the reality is somewhat different. We're in "And then a miracle happened" territory. Until we can see how to achieve those things, and the investment happens in order to implement whatever the solutions turn out to be, EVs are simply not attractive or practical enough for a very large fraction of the motoring public. Which is a real shame.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on March 19, 2018, 08:19:06 PM

Amen to that, and I don't disagree. The problem for me is that I can see the various incremental improvements that are currently anticipated, but (in my personal view) those aren't enough. What I can't see are realistic and practical routes towards the quantum changes that will have to happen in the engineering, the infrastructure, and the culture  in order to allow EVs to approach the convenience and user-friendliness of today's ICE cars.

I flip flopped like mad before my recent car purchase (another Jazz). That bit of what Colin says above nails it for me. There isn't a quantum leap in any area as far as I can see. The new Leaf is an incremental change (good though it is) but it's not a long distance business car yet. The charging network looks impressive if you collapse the maps on zap-map but zoom in and the vast areas of the country with literally no infrastructure at all comes into view. The amount of work to fill these charge deserts is immense and you have to sympathise with potential investors who will want to see many more EVs on the road before they put in charging stations in, say, the middle of the Peak District or Lincolnshire or Wales.

In fact only a major shove from government will do the job. In very simple terms there need to be as many rapid, not fast, but rapid chargers as there are petrol pumps.

It's why the 2040 date is about right. It's going to take a long time. I reckon the tipping point may be 10 years away yet.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on March 19, 2018, 08:47:14 PM
I agree with the sentiments above.

I said earlier, EVs are coming...

...but there are many years of life left in the combustion engine car market yet, and probably more developments to come in hybrid technology too. I thought that hydrogen fuel cells might have made more of an impression, with hydrogen being used as a medium to store surplus electricity, but it seems infrastructure is going the way of pure EV.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on March 21, 2018, 10:22:38 PM
Ooops!


Jonathan Porterfield is an EV evangelist. Looks like Nissan have screwed up big time with the new Leaf as the charge rate slows right down after the first charge. Indeed, on a long journey you might even be better with an old Leaf.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on March 27, 2018, 03:01:47 PM

Well Jocko absent so someone has to post stuff from fully charged......

Here is a video of the most useless electric bike you will ever see, call it 'son of Sinclair C5' - too slow to go on proper roads (would be a moving roadblock, worse even than a normal cyclist because it is wider),  too wide to cut through traffic like a proper e-bike,  sitting down pedalling so as battery runs out you cannot even stand on the pedals,  you have to find a parking space rather than just chain it to something,  can't take it on a train or ferry.

What were the designers thinking about ?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest5079 on March 28, 2018, 10:21:33 AM
I am sorry to post with half a story BUT it seems there was a survey amongst the employees in the car industry and a large number stated they would never buy an electric car. Perhaps this is job protection but it is surprising never the less. One would assume they have been told that they would be building them after the ICE is banned.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on March 28, 2018, 12:34:34 PM
I am sorry to post with half a story BUT it seems there was a survey amongst the employees in the car industry and a large number stated they would never buy an electric car. Perhaps this is job protection but it is surprising never the less. One would assume they have been told that they would be building them after the ICE is banned.

I can see why they might want to give BEV / autonomous cars a miss....  Tesla share prices take another hit.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-tesla-fire-20180327-story.html

quotes from another article

With traffic seemingly easing a bit, I let the autopilot take over again, then decide to flip the right-turn signal, testing Tesla’s “automatic lane change” feature. As the car ahead of me in the middle lane brakes, the Model S brakes gently and eases into the right lane … and then keeps bearing to the right, edging ever closer to the concrete wall that marks the freeway’s far right boundary. In an instant, my faith falters, and I grab the wheel and jerk it away from the barrier. Phew. In retrospect, that may not have been necessary. At that point on the West Side Highway, the road lacks painted boundaries, which the autopilot system typically relies on for lane-keeping. Instead, the highway is bounded only by concrete barriers. To a human, it’s obvious what the concrete signifies. Not so for a computer vision system that is still in its infancy and hasn’t been specifically trained to recognize walls as such.
  :o

In practice, however, Tesla’s autopilot doesn’t just complement the efforts of the human drivers who use it—it alters their behavior. It strengthens the temptation to check your email while stuck in traffic. It might even be the thing that convinces a drunk person at a party to go ahead and try to drive home.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on March 28, 2018, 01:45:10 PM
I am sorry to post with half a story BUT it seems there was a survey amongst the employees in the car industry and a large number stated they would never buy an electric car. Perhaps this is job protection but it is surprising never the less. One would assume they have been told that they would be building them after the ICE is banned.
The item in question was attributed to the Institute for the Motor Industry (IMI), which has this on its website:
https://www.theimi.org.uk/news/drivers-blame-absent-charging-points-and-lack-information-not-switching-electric
It appears to have been a survey of the general public, not industry professionals.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest5079 on March 29, 2018, 09:50:03 AM
The item I heard and only listened to at the end, inferred it was the actual car workers. However that point has now been clarified.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on April 04, 2018, 06:53:28 PM
Tesla share price lowest in seven years, company still burning through a billion dollars a quarter.  Tesla announce recall of over 123,000 model S due to power steering fault.

With Tesla the wheels could come off at any time (and they do).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on April 04, 2018, 09:11:48 PM
Tesla announce recall of over 123,000 model S due to power steering fault.
I have been watching for something on this thread and sure enough, here it is. I just have to bite. The failure is a failure of bolts on the power steering as supplied by Bosch. Bosch will be footing the bill. Any other vehicle fitted with the same Bosch part are also at risk. Blaming Tesla is like blaming Honda for the failure of the airbags supplied by Takata. The recall was made, voluntarily, by Tesla. Their recall record is better than most car makers.

https://qz.com/1243140/teslas-recall-record-is-better-than-most-major-car-companies/ (https://qz.com/1243140/teslas-recall-record-is-better-than-most-major-car-companies/)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on April 04, 2018, 09:34:57 PM
Just reeling in now ......
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on April 17, 2018, 03:57:53 PM
I read that Tesla has stopped production of the Model 3.
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/magazines/panache/tesla-temporarily-stops-model-3-production-line/articleshow/63793221.cms (https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/magazines/panache/tesla-temporarily-stops-model-3-production-line/articleshow/63793221.cms)
Either a wise move or the beginning of the end!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on April 18, 2018, 10:37:20 PM
According to this report, Tesla are gearing up for 7 day 24 hours operations.

https://electrek.co/2018/04/17/tesla-model-3-production-goal-6000-units-per-week/

Interesting times ahead...
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on April 19, 2018, 03:14:08 PM
As Tesla never meet their goals and divert attention for the persistent failures  by issuing press releases, I would take ANYTHING Tesla announce announce after a another high profile failure as bull excrement to divert attention.. (it seems to work)

Last time is was an electric lorry..etc..
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JohnAlways on April 20, 2018, 09:15:01 AM
This morning in Gloucestershire thick fog. My Jazz dipped headlights, intermittent wipers and no I didn't use rear fog as a Nissan Leaf was close behind. I saw 3 Nissan Leafs in the 17 mile journey, none had lights on apart from the daytime running lights so no rear lights. The leaf following me had an invisible driver, he did one wipe in 10 miles (that I could see) and disappeared from view behind the buildup of moisture on his windscreen. I confess I was unnerved, the only saving grace was the front car in a series of about 10 (convoy) was only doing about 30mph. I understand battery saving but these EV drivers are acting in a very irresponsible manner not using lights in fog.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on April 20, 2018, 03:19:12 PM
This morning in Gloucestershire thick fog. My Jazz dipped headlights, intermittent wipers and no I didn't use rear fog as a Nissan Leaf was close behind. I saw 3 Nissan Leafs in the 17 mile journey, none had lights on apart from the daytime running lights so no rear lights. The leaf following me had an invisible driver, he did one wipe in 10 miles (that I could see) and disappeared from view behind the buildup of moisture on his windscreen. I confess I was unnerved, the only saving grace was the front car in a series of about 10 (convoy) was only doing about 30mph. I understand battery saving but these EV drivers are acting in a very irresponsible manner not using lights in fog.

I have noticed a few Nissan Leaf driving around slowly (slowest was 35 in 60 limit main road, slower than the average tractor these days),  can't say I have noticed lack of lights though I have never seen one in fog (most people don't see things in fog, maybe I should look harder when it is foggy ).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on May 02, 2018, 07:58:47 AM
Looks like Tesla is about to follow Gibson, if the money men are betting against them.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43966754 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43966754)
I will be sad to see them go. They have driven expectations of what an electric car can deliver.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on May 02, 2018, 08:54:58 AM
They have driven expectations of what an electric car can deliver.
That's a debatable point. They have hyped customer expectations through slick PR but been unable to deliver on those promises, and that's what's creating the doom & gloom. I hope they survive too because - if the hype is even halfway correct - the products do seem to be promising. But having a good product is not enough: they, and any successor companies, have to meet their promises of delivery or else the fickle customers will simply go elsewhere. I might rephrase your comment to "They have driven expectations of what a car company can't deliver."
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on May 02, 2018, 09:09:55 AM
You have totally grabbed the wrong end of the stick. What I am saying is Tesla has shown that an EV does not have to be a slow "milk float" with a 40 mile range. It is down to Tesla that cars like the Jaguar I-PACE have come along, instead of a stream of TWIZY lookalikes. Tesla has forced the likes of Mercedes Benz and VAG to take EVs seriously.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on May 02, 2018, 09:20:44 AM
You have totally grabbed the wrong end of the stick. What I am saying is Tesla has shown that an EV does not have to be a slow "milk float" with a 40 mile range. It is down to Tesla that cars like the Jaguar I-PACE have come along, instead of a stream of TWIZY lookalikes. Tesla has forced the likes of Mercedes Benz and VAG to take EVs seriously.
I'm not completely disagreeing with you ! Just putting a slightly different point of view about the topic (which is what a discussion should be all about). The bottom line - which applies to the other companies you mention as well as Tesla - is that:
... having a good product is not enough: they, and any successor companies, have to meet their promises of delivery or else the fickle customers will simply go elsewhere.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on May 02, 2018, 09:53:44 AM
They have driven expectations of what an electric car can deliver.
That's a debatable point. They have hyped customer expectations through slick PR but been unable to deliver on those promises, and that's what's creating the doom & gloom. I hope they survive too because - if the hype is even halfway correct - the products do seem to be promising. But having a good product is not enough: they, and any successor companies, have to meet their promises of delivery or else the fickle customers will simply go elsewhere. I might rephrase your comment to "They have driven expectations of what a car company can't deliver."

Tesla quality has a long way to go, up until now they have been supported by EV evangelists and rich people who wanted a new toy to play with. Their foray into mainstream 'affordable' EV has been a disaster so far, and could well bring down the company. No company on earth can burn a billion dollars a quarter and hope to survive, hype will not save the company any more when they are not delivering quality cars (or not even delivering cars).   They have more and more competitors coming on stream, well respected and established companies like VW, Mercedes, Volvo and jaguar who are building products that the wheels don't fall off and General build quality is very high.  I am afraid Teslas time is passed, you will find examples in years to come in museums. Nice try Mr Musk, better luck with your rockets.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on May 02, 2018, 09:27:59 PM
Tesla has just announced another humongous loss for Q1 of 2018. Not looking good for them at all.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on May 05, 2018, 10:02:07 PM
Say what you like about it, impractical though it is, but this is an AMAZING piece of engineering.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on May 09, 2018, 07:06:53 AM
For those of you waiting on the big players getting in on the action, Mercedes Benz will be releasing this next year. Unveiling in September this year.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on May 16, 2018, 04:18:59 PM
A good read.
(https://speakev.com/attachments/img_20180516_111437634-jpg.94633/)

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/tesla/model-3/first-drives/tesla-model-3-2018-review (https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/tesla/model-3/first-drives/tesla-model-3-2018-review)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on May 20, 2018, 02:24:39 PM
Interesting, free, book to be found here.
http://www.jeffvehicles.com/free-book (http://www.jeffvehicles.com/free-book)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on June 08, 2018, 10:12:49 PM
The new Jaguar I-PACE looks the dog's doodahs. An expensive motor, but very desirable. They seem to have got the package just right.
I watched a segment on Formula E on the BBC News tonight, and they were saying how the lessons learned from the race car has driven development of the road car. Just as has happened during the first 120 years of motor racing.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on June 13, 2018, 06:43:22 AM
Tesla announced a 9% reduction in salaried employees. About 3,000 jobs to go. Elon Musk is having to realise the world of "real" economics.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on June 13, 2018, 04:17:55 PM
He needs a lot more cash...so this is  - I suspect - the prelude to another fund raising..Still only producing 60% of his forecast 5,000 a week...
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on June 13, 2018, 05:34:17 PM
Build quality of model 3 ( well every Tesla really) is really bad, the honeymoon is over and now too many competitors producing quality cars for anyone to buy a Tesla that is not well built.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on June 13, 2018, 05:39:06 PM
Build quality of model 3 ( well every Tesla really) is really bad, the honeymoon is over and now too many competitors producing quality cars for anyone to buy a Tesla that is not well built.

Interesting the build quality thing. On YouTube there is a couple called James and Kate. Early adopters and they now have a Tesla model S having started with a 24 kwh Nissan Leaf. They have done tests on the new Nissan Leaf and James indicated he might even prefer it to his Tesla. Build quality on Teslas does seem to be an issue.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on June 29, 2018, 10:38:21 AM
Buyers still not too impressed by EV, their sales are dropping year on year while PHEV are rising (mainly I feel due to company car effect, where users get better tax incentives and can go into congestion charging zones,  but many users never charge the battery and lug the 500Kg+ deadweight around, but who cares because your company is paying the fuel costs anyway LOL).

https://www.racfoundation.org/media-centre/pure-ev-sales-in-reverse
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on June 29, 2018, 11:22:03 AM
A lot probably to do with the fact that the Nissan Leaf, the best selling BEV here in the UK was being updated, and they are on a long back order. The VW e-Golf is similar.
BP have just bought Chargemaster, the UK's largest provider of charging, and intends installing rapid chargers in all 1200 filling stations.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on June 30, 2018, 09:32:38 PM
This report https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44575399 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44575399) won't help the sales of EVs.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on June 30, 2018, 10:33:09 PM
The Mk 2 Leaf problem is a known issue, which affects the second or third charge, on a long trip.  EV forums believe that the next iteration, with the 60kW battery, will have battery cooling, the lack of which seems to be the issue.
The range issue is the same with all EVs. It depends on the weather and how it is driven. Like manufacturer's mpg figures, they are all a figment of some marketing man's imagination.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on July 01, 2018, 07:21:55 AM
The Mk 2 Leaf problem is a known issue, which affects the second or third charge, on a long trip.  EV forums believe that the next iteration, with the 60kW battery, will have battery cooling, the lack of which seems to be the issue.
The range issue is the same with all EVs. It depends on the weather and how it is driven. Like manufacturer's mpg figures, they are all a figment of some marketing man's imagination.
The point of the BBC story was not just that these faults exist, it was also that Nissan are misleading purchasers with their statements about range and ease of recharging. That is not going to advance the cause of EVs.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 01, 2018, 08:57:34 AM
it was also that Nissan are misleading purchasers with their statements about range and ease of recharging. That is not going to advance the cause of EVs.
Manufacturers have been lying to customer since the days of Henry Ford. The range figures for the Nissan, like all other cars, are on tests that customers seldom, if ever, can repeat. The 1.0 Ecoboost Fiesta is quoted at 65.7 mpg, but customers struggle to achieve 40 mpg. The Leaf 2 now advertises "RANGE (WLTP COMBINED CYCLE) 168 miles". The charging issue is another matter.
As an aside, Ford advertising call their car an "Echoboost" not "Eecoboost". Is Ford marketing finding that Eco is a dirty word in the world of petrolheads?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on July 01, 2018, 03:04:24 PM
The cracks are showing in the hype when faced with real life, same with autonomous vehicles. Factor in the 'lead balloon' depreciation of all except the luxury end of pure EV  to date and can you wonder why they are selling about as fast as DIY leg amputation kits. 

Government soon act to increase sales of EV by banning everything else from city congestion / emissions zones, and through company vehicle tax regimes.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 01, 2018, 04:41:33 PM
Love them or hate them, they are the future, and most of us here (assuming we are not all old farts like myself) will be owning and driving one in the not too distant future. The big manufacturers are getting in on the act, the oil companies are investing, and governments are buying in too. Like Canute, be will have to yield before the wave.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on July 02, 2018, 07:43:18 AM
Love them or hate them, they are the future, and most of us here (assuming we are not all old farts like myself) will be owning and driving one in the not too distant future. The big manufacturers are getting in on the act, the oil companies are investing, and governments are buying in too. Like Canute, be will have to yield before the wave.
I’d love to believe you, really, because electric does bring benefits (although not as many as some would have you believe). But you have to take a hefty dose of reality with the hype. Despite what the EV-angelists would have you believe, there are still far too many practical problems that have to be resolved before EVs break into the mainstream. Realistically, you can only have one if you have somewhere to charge it, and if your pattern of use suits the range shortcomings. That excludes a very large proportion of the motoring public even taking into account that “big oil” is getting into the business. There may be a miracle sometime in the next 20 years that resolves those issues and makes them practical, but at present there are only incremental improvements on the horizon not the quantum change to technology and infrastructure that’s needed. The promise is there but the reality isn’t.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on July 02, 2018, 09:00:23 AM
Love them or hate them, they are the future, and most of us here (assuming we are not all old farts like myself) will be owning and driving one in the not too distant future. The big manufacturers are getting in on the act, the oil companies are investing, and governments are buying in too. Like Canute, be will have to yield before the wave.

Electric cars have been around for ever, since around the 1850's - there were fleets of electric taxis running around both London and New York in around 1897.  For something that has been around for over 100 years funny they never caught on and became popular.  Big oil is getting in on charging stations just as a side bet (as any business would).  We will not seen the demise of oil for a long time yet, it will be governments with punative taxes that forces people into EV,  not because buyers want them, a virtual communist dictatorship like China can ban ICE cars outright to bolster their EV industry,  but western democracies have to tread more carefully and in the end it will be down to buyers choice and taxation regime.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 02, 2018, 09:46:17 AM
Realistically, you can only have one if you have somewhere to charge it
That is what I will do, but talking to owners on Speak EV I was amazed how many have no charging at home and use public chargers as their sole method of charging.

Quote
Electric cars have been around for ever, since around the 1850's - there were fleets of electric taxis running around both London and New York in around 1897.  For something that has been around for over 100 years funny they never caught on and became popular.
Not really, considering the technology is only beginning to catch up with the idea. With a top speed of 10 mph and a range of 20-30 miles they were not an attractive option.

Quote
in the end it will be down to buyers choice
Are you saying that when they end up cheaper to buy, 400 mile range, fuel at the equivalent of 0 - £2/gallon, full charge in 10 minutes, minor service at 25K and big service at 50K, punters are not going to flock to by them?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on July 02, 2018, 10:08:48 AM
Are you saying that when they end up cheaper to buy, 400 mile range, fuel at the equivalent of 0 - £2/gallon, full charge in 10 minutes, minor service at 25K and big service at 50K, punters are not going to flock to by them?

The cost of Nissan Leaf will have to rise to fit battery cooling which is obviously required because if they don't the charging problems will continue and also higher battery temps will degrade batteries,  when cooling is fitted weight will increase.  The rest is pure hype and speculation, which the EV industry 'spin doctors' have been putting around.  The main problem with EV is that if the technology continues to improve who is going to commit to buying a car that will be out of date in a year or less and be replaced by something with longer range, more gadgets, shorter charging etc. Until the industry standardises and can convince punters that any improvements can be backwardly compatible with their car the market for pure EV will be confined to EV-angelists. 

No sign of the quantum leap in battery technology that everyone has been talking about for at least the last 30 years+, and probably for the next few decades as well.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 02, 2018, 10:18:05 AM
No sign of the quantum leap in battery technology that everyone has been talking about for at least the last 30 years+, and probably for the next few decades as well.
Solid state batteries batteries have been developed. "The technology also promises lower costs, although manufacturing the batteries at the scale required for the auto industry is not viable at present.". But the auto industry are investing heavily as this report says.
https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1116625_japanese-automakers-partner-on-solid-state-batteries-in-ev-race (https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1116625_japanese-automakers-partner-on-solid-state-batteries-in-ev-race)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 03, 2018, 07:19:32 AM
Tesla has finally managed to reach its target of 5,000 Model 3's built in a week, but shares slumped as the market questions whether they can maintain that figure.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/tesla-stock-soars-after-hitting-5000-model-3-production-target-and-shooting-for-6000-2018-07-02 (https://www.marketwatch.com/story/tesla-stock-soars-after-hitting-5000-model-3-production-target-and-shooting-for-6000-2018-07-02)

Elsewhere in the news, analysts reckon that EU sales of diesel vehicles will fall to just 5% of new sales by 2030. Already, the fall in new diesel numbers are pushing up emissions.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44687784 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44687784)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on July 03, 2018, 07:39:53 AM
Are you saying that when they end up cheaper to buy, 400 mile range, fuel at the equivalent of 0 - £2/gallon, full charge in 10 minutes, minor service at 25K and big service at 50K, punters are not going to flock to by them?

The cost of Nissan Leaf will have to rise to fit battery cooling which is obviously required because if they don't the charging problems will continue and also higher battery temps will degrade batteries,  when cooling is fitted weight will increase.  The rest is pure hype and speculation, which the EV industry 'spin doctors' have been putting around.  The main problem with EV is that if the technology continues to improve who is going to commit to buying a car that will be out of date in a year or less and be replaced by something with longer range, more gadgets, shorter charging etc. Until the industry standardises and can convince punters that any improvements can be backwardly compatible with their car the market for pure EV will be confined to EV-angelists. 

No sign of the quantum leap in battery technology that everyone has been talking about for at least the last 30 years+, and probably for the next few decades as well.

I think this is a good point. We all know that when we buy a piece of consumer electronics it is out of date before we get it out of its Amazon box but there is a world of difference between a £500 TV and a £23,000 car. The magic figure they need to reach is 200 miles range at 70 mph in the rain and cold with every single electric appliance on full blast.


We don't seem anywhere near that and the "rapidgate" issues around the new Leaf show how far we still have to travel. The capability I mention above needs to be available for a lot less than £20k as well.


I say this with some regret as I would love an EV.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on July 03, 2018, 08:08:26 AM
I watch the EV technology progress in the context of how hybrid technology could benefit. I had a Mk. 2 Jazz hybrid but the low capacity of the relatively heavy battery didn't provide a lot of fuel economy improvement for extra-urban motoring (my main usage). Loss of spare wheel storage was also a negative. I'd like enough battery capacity for up to 20 miles of urban motoring plus an efficient hybrid system for longer journeys including the capability of charging from the mains so I can top-up the battery using solar power or off-peak electricity while not losing the spare wheel storage.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on July 03, 2018, 10:23:34 AM
A PHEV would do me but I absolutely do not need or want a big car. All of them seem to big. I want a Jazz sized PHEV.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 03, 2018, 10:32:42 AM
Even better than a PHEV is the range extender BMW i3 REX. A bit pricey though.

https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-reviews/long-term-tests/bmw/bmw-i3-range-extender-2017-long-term-test-review/ (https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-reviews/long-term-tests/bmw/bmw-i3-range-extender-2017-long-term-test-review/)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on July 03, 2018, 12:49:31 PM
A PHEV would do me but I absolutely do not need or want a big car. All of them seem to big. I want a Jazz sized PHEV.
I wonder how much battery capacity could be achieved by having 4 small packs under the boot floor in the corners outside the spare wheel well. Alternatively, there's plenty of space under the back seat but one would then forego the magic seats.

The Kia Niro is a bit longer than the Jazz (about 4.3m long) but offers both normal hybrid and PHEV versions. The former has the battery under the back seat and space for a full sized spare wheel.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 05, 2018, 12:34:26 PM
Not quite a quantum leap, but an example of how new technology is being used to improve EVs. As a retired electrical engineer I had read about ultra capacitors but never gave a lot of thought to how they could be used. As the engineer for this high tech company explains, they are being used in large electric vehicles already (buses and container cranes are mentioned), to smooth out  peaks and troughs of energy uses. For an electric car they can be used to collect the energy from hard braking then immediately give it back for acceleration (a typical cycle in the use of any motor car). Removing this cycle of events from the battery improves the battery performance, gives longer range, can increase the working life of the battery to twice that currently experienced (imaging an EV battery guaranteed for 250,000 miles), and also affects cooling and such.
Obviously, the large units shown near the end would be too big and heavy for a car, but he reckons they will be incorporated into EV traction systems in 5 or 6 years.
Very interesting technology and a most enlightening video.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 06, 2018, 06:54:25 PM
Saw this on another fuel forum:  "It's likely that the tighter the emissions regulations become, the easier and cheaper it is for car makers to research and develop an EV than make an ICE one pass regs, the fossil fuelled car has already begun to decline."
Seems likely.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on July 07, 2018, 08:55:28 AM
Not quite a quantum leap, but an example of how new technology is being used to improve EVs. As a retired electrical engineer I had read about ultra capacitors but never gave a lot of thought to how they could be used. As the engineer for this high tech company explains, they are being used in large electric vehicles already (buses and container cranes are mentioned), to smooth out  peaks and troughs of energy uses. For an electric car they can be used to collect the energy from hard braking then immediately give it back for acceleration (a typical cycle in the use of any motor car). Removing this cycle of events from the battery improves the battery performance, gives longer range, can increase the working life of the battery to twice that currently experienced (imaging an EV battery guaranteed for 250,000 miles), and also affects cooling and such.
Obviously, the large units shown near the end would be too big and heavy for a car, but he reckons they will be incorporated into EV traction systems in 5 or 6 years.

As I said in an earlier post, capacitors and batteries are not interchangeable but complimentary - a capacitor has low energy density (worse than lead acid batteries) but can accept and release power quickly,  a battery has high energy density but due to its chemical reaction has problems accepting and releasing power quickly.  A capacitor stores an electric charge between two plates ( normally separated by an dry insulator) where a battery stores electricity as a chemical reaction,  the fact that this chemical reaction has to be continually made and reversed is the problem,  it releases heat on both charge and discharge and the chemical reaction 'wears out' as the battery ages (mainly due to problems with anode).  The capacitor develops no real heat on charge and discharge but its charge and discharge characteristics are strange, as they are exponential curves (voltage drops very rapidly to about 50% discharge and then slows down),  rather than the fairly linear and predictable voltage drop  at a batteries terminals as it discharges.

I would guess that the power storage on F1 cars is capacitor rather than battery as there is no need for long term storage and the power is absorbed quickly from regen braking and release quickly for acceleration almost straight away.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on July 07, 2018, 08:59:32 AM
Saw this on another fuel forum:  "It's likely that the tighter the emissions regulations become, the easier and cheaper it is for car makers to research and develop an EV than make an ICE one pass regs, the fossil fuelled car has already begun to decline."
Seems likely.

And the legislators will make sure this happens,  just like they did with Diesel, until a problem with EV turns up......
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 09, 2018, 07:19:29 AM
Some interesting EV info expected to be announced today. Chris Grayling is expected to announce that new-build homes in England are to be required to have  charging points installed and street lighting to include some charging points too.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44759150 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44759150)

There are also some interesting new talk videos on "Fully Charged", from their Fully Charged Live 2018, held at Silverstone at the start of June.
There are bits from a range of contributors, from the National Grid, to CEO of Eco Cars, the countries first major supplier of pre-owned EVs.
Suppliers of charging infrastructure are saying that the EV manufacturers have basically all settled on CCS as there preferred charging option, so it looks like this will become the industry standard.
Pivot Power have applied for planning permission to install their first 50 MW battery storage system, each supplying 100 charging points, with 45 planned to be installed over the next 5 years. Cost will be £1.6 billion.
Eco Cars pointed out that the majority of owners replacing PHEVs are buying full EVs. PHEVs seem to give them the confidence to take the plunge.
The National Grid spokesman said that they have no problem supplying power to the emerging EV market, scoffing at the Daily Mail's "We will require 5 new nuclear power plants". And that despite the fact that one 350 KW charging point requires the same power as a B&Q store, with two the same as an IKEA!
The guy from Ecotricity says that they have been able to install fast chargers at all bar one of the UK's motorway service stations, the one not having grid capacity.

And a video explaining the problems with sustained high power use from a Tesla Model X. Apparently you cannot accelerate up and down to 155 mph over a prolonged period without the powertrain overheating and limiting the power. Yaboo!

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on July 09, 2018, 10:27:00 AM
Some interesting EV info expected to be announced today. Chris Grayling is expected to announce that new-build homes in England are to be required to have  charging points installed and street lighting to include some charging points too.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44759150 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44759150)

Hmmm, maybe a (tiny) step in the right direction. Grayling’s stated intent ...
“The proposals, announced by Transport Secretary Chris Grayling, aim to make it easier to recharge an electric car rather than refuel petrol or diesel vehicles.”
... is right on what’s needed, but the proposals themselves (as reported by the BBC) aren’t exactly going to bring EVs into the mainstream.

There is no actual requirement for new-build homes to have charging points, merely “The need to assess if new homes and offices should be required to install charging points as standard”. In other words, developers just have to think about doing it.

And the lamppost proposal is only for new ones, there’s nothing about retro-fitting or replacing existing. Even if they did retro-fit, the number of cars parked in the average suburban terraced street far outweighs the number of lamp posts.

So this measure alone isn’t going to have a dramatic result, but if it’s simply the opening salvo in a concerted campaign to improve charging infrastructure then maybe more effective steps will follow.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 12, 2018, 08:50:04 AM
Tesla has just signed up to build a new factory in Shanghai with a view to producing 500,000 cars a year, worldwide. China will help with some of the costs. I imagine China will probably be investing big, seeing their desire to be the worlds biggest producers of EVs.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-china/tesla-to-open-plant-in-shanghai-with-annual-capacity-of-500000-cars-local-media-idUSKBN1K01HL (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-china/tesla-to-open-plant-in-shanghai-with-annual-capacity-of-500000-cars-local-media-idUSKBN1K01HL)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on July 12, 2018, 09:37:57 AM
Tesla has just signed up to build a new factory in Shanghai with a view to producing 500,000 cars a year, worldwide. China will help with some of the costs. I imagine China will probably be investing big, seeing their desire to be the worlds biggest producers of EVs.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-china/tesla-to-open-plant-in-shanghai-with-annual-capacity-of-500000-cars-local-media-idUSKBN1K01HL (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-china/tesla-to-open-plant-in-shanghai-with-annual-capacity-of-500000-cars-local-media-idUSKBN1K01HL)

Ha Ha - the Chinese will just steal Tesla technology and make 'Tasle' vehicles LOL.   No such thing as intellectual property protection in China,  it resembles the US wild west a few hundred years ago.  Sure they play lip service to IP protection,  but many companies have found to their cost that US / international laws do not apply in China, and with such a big internal market they don't have to care much about international IP and patents.  Better for Musk to have Tesla cars crash in China than in USA I suppose.  China has a massive problem with its currency and foreign investments at the moment,  they have overstretched themselves and face a collapse of economy, despite keeping a ( state controlled) veneer of being a sound economy,  they are sinking deep into the brown and smelly stuff.

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/economy/article/2131202/financial-risk-facing-china-worse-us-global-crash-former-finance

Any company opening a 'joint venture' company or even having stuff made in China is setting up a competitor for the future. When I lived in Aussie our company used to make and export machinery to China,  but after a few years they stopped buying and remarkably similar equipment to ours appeared in China and for sale throughout Asia,  they are not to be trusted (in business or anything else). The incumbent President of USA has the right idea, to bring production back to USA and stop giving competitors all your secrets. Forget Russia  the next skirmishes will involve China and their growing ambitions,  they are already building fortified islands in the China sea trying to deny freedom of navigation to other nations.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 12, 2018, 10:34:35 AM
They will be our new market after Brexit.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 12, 2018, 06:06:37 PM
It appears that the young will take to electric cars in greater numbers than the old fuddy-duddys.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-44798135 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-44798135)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on July 12, 2018, 08:51:47 PM
It appears that the young will take to electric cars in greater numbers than the old fuddy-duddys.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-44798135 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-44798135)

Funny that surveys of millennials last year said 70% of them would not want an electric vehicle, about the same % as older buyers.

 I do not trust BBC, they are mouth piece of government and in no way unbiased or neutral. They have been heavily criticised for their bias on a lot of things, but they shrug and are unrepentant.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 12, 2018, 09:45:49 PM
The BBC were reporting an AA/Populus poll. Are the AA in the governments pocket too?
Here is another report of the poll.

https://www.businessgreen.com/bg/news/3035756/half-of-young-drivers-would-like-an-electric-car (https://www.businessgreen.com/bg/news/3035756/half-of-young-drivers-would-like-an-electric-car)

Ah! but that is a "Green" publication. They will be biased too. I'll need to wait and see what the Daily Mail says about it.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on July 12, 2018, 10:32:48 PM
It's very difficult to know what to conclude from that sort of survey because it depends on exactly how the question was phrased. If I were asked "Would you like to own an electric car ?" I would probably answer "Yes" so my answer would support the conclusion of that survey. But that's very different to being able to own one, because I know very well that the shortcomings in current technology and infrastructure make it impractical.

I did like the bit about the AA expecting people  to charge their EVs at home, neatly ignoring that that is impossible now and for the foreseeable future for a large fraction of the motoring public
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 13, 2018, 07:01:17 AM
I did like the bit about the AA expecting people  to charge their EVs at home, neatly ignoring that that is impossible now and for the foreseeable future for a large fraction of the motoring public
That is the reason I don't have one now. Once we move to the house with the drive and a powered garage I will swap immediately. However, discussing with local Leaf owners I was surprised to find that most of them do not have home chargers but use public chargers, of which there are many around here. They are to all intent and purpose  free to use in Scotland (ChargePlace) funded by the Scottish government (£20 annual fee).
Mind you, our local hospital did some remodelling, and put a new car park in, primarily for staff. It has a charging station with 4 bays, but has been bagged over, and out of commission since before Christmas! (not ChargePoint but a pay to use system)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on July 13, 2018, 07:44:07 AM
...  discussing with local Leaf owners I was surprised to find that most of them do not have home chargers but use public chargers, of which there are many around here.

There is a world of difference between early adopters, who are prepared to put up with inconvenience for the sake of novelty, and the needs of most of the motoring public. At present I doubt that the demand for the public chargers means those folks have to queue, but the practicality of public chargers when the demand is greater has not yet been demonstrated. Quite apart from the time required, how do you force people to move their cars when they are fully charged ? If we can somehow get to Grayling’s vision of charging an EV being easier than fuelling an ICE then that would be different, but we’re a long way from that nirvana and no clear way of getting there. Nor is moving house in order to have an EV a practical solution for most people.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on July 13, 2018, 11:06:53 AM
You cannot force people to move their cars after charging and some drivers will probably plug in and use the convenient parking spot even though their car does not need charging. Also as ColinB said (and I have said before) no queues at charging points yet, in future to own an EV you will need home charging, street charging points will be bogged and non EV cars will park in them (street parking is at premium in most towns and cities).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 13, 2018, 11:18:29 AM
You cannot force people to move their cars after charging
They will certainly need to unplug after charging, as to leave a car connected after it is charged ramps up the price you pay. However, as you say, people will park there anyway, unless legislation is brought in by the local council to have parking wardens issue tickets for cars not connected to the charger!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 16, 2018, 06:54:27 AM
Saw a piece on the BBC News yesterday, that the British Vehicle Rental & Leasing Association, who's members currently own 1 in 5 of the cars on our roads and 1 in 8 vans, say they are switching to Zero or Low Emission vehicles over the next couple of years. I searched online for a link to this piece but could not find it. Did anyone else see the piece I am referring to?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on July 16, 2018, 07:35:36 AM
Saw a piece on the BBC News yesterday, that the British Vehicle Rental & Leasing Association, who's members currently own 1 in 5 of the cars on our roads and 1 in 8 vans, say they are switching to Zero or Low Emission vehicles over the next couple of years. I searched online for a link to this piece but could not find it. Did anyone else see the piece I am referring to?
it’s always better to look for the source rather than a news site’s interpretation of what was said. The only thing I can see on the BVRLA site that the BBC might be referring to is this:
http://bvrla.co.uk/news/road-zero-strategy-acknowledges-importance-fleets
That really amounts only to a watching brief responding to Grayling’s recent policy statement - which you would expect from such an industry body anyway - rather than any sort of commitment.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on July 16, 2018, 09:34:45 AM
Saw a piece on the BBC News yesterday, that the British Vehicle Rental & Leasing Association, who's members currently own 1 in 5 of the cars on our roads and 1 in 8 vans, say they are switching to Zero or Low Emission vehicles over the next couple of years. I searched online for a link to this piece but could not find it. Did anyone else see the piece I am referring to?
it’s always better to look for the source rather than a news site’s interpretation of what was said. The only thing I can see on the BVRLA site that the BBC might be referring to is this:
http://bvrla.co.uk/news/road-zero-strategy-acknowledges-importance-fleets
That really amounts only to a watching brief responding to Grayling’s recent policy statement - which you would expect from such an industry body anyway - rather than any sort of commitment.

Yeah, reminds me of when they were trying to get company car drivers into diesels as the 'clean alternative' - government policy is driven by 'advisory bodies' (also known as lobbyists) rather than facts.  Government will follow advice of lobbyists and vested interests because no one in government understands engineering or science (they all studied law or economics) - and results are always flawed.   
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 16, 2018, 09:43:00 AM
Thanks, Colin, your link got me to the original press release, but not much there either. Leasing and Rental companies may want to go Zero Emission (big tax incentives), but if their customers want to run diesels then that is what they have to supply.
Of the current crop of ICE vehicles being produced, diesels are actually lower polluters then petrol. They are now fitting particle filters to the exhausts of some petrol cars to clean them up, and the high NOx emissions of the tiny turbo 3 cylinder jobbies is also causing concern. They are not welcome on some markets.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on July 16, 2018, 10:24:19 AM

This is the type of thing that's needed. Dundee setting the pace here.

In the meantime I agree with ColinB's earlier post about early adopters. I was very seriously considering a Nissan Leaf (30 kwh) but it soon became clear that one or two trips were actually impossible and one or two more incredibly inconvenient. There are also too many clips on Youtube of early adopters rocking up at charge points, fiddling about with cards and Apps in the pouring rain and, in some cases, having to get the security man to let them use the service road to the other carriageway.

EVs are still viable if you can stump up £80,000 for a Tesla or they are very useful as a second car but, for now, I'm out. The following needs to be in place before I'll jump.

1) A car capable of 200 miles in the rain on a cold day at 70 mph with every appliance turned up to max.
2) A network of charge points filling in gaps in the current network but, more importantly, a minimum of 10 points at each location to allow for the inherent unreliability of rapid chargers.
3) A sub £20,000 price tag for a car capable of fulfilling the requirements in point 1).

This day will come but I think we are about 5 years off that at the moment.


Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on July 16, 2018, 12:06:48 PM
This is the type of thing that's needed. Dundee setting the pace here.
How do they prevent the charging spaces being blocked ? I visited a small town near me yesterday, free parking on a Sunday and a popular place with car parks full and people circling looking for spaces. There was a block of four spaces near a charging point clearly marked for EVs only, one space occupied by a plugged-in PHEV, the others by ICEVs. Much to the annoyance of the Zoe owner who arrived looking to charge but couldn’t. So at present your average motorist seems inclined to park anywhere he/she sees fit rather than allowing EVs the priority they need. If that attitude can’t be changed, then EV owners will never be able to rely on available public charging facilities.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on July 16, 2018, 12:32:55 PM
My understanding of the Dundee charging park is that it is not a car park. It is a dedicated charging hub. Therefore the situation that can and does apply when chargers are provided in ordinary car parks shouldn't apply here. It seems to work.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on July 16, 2018, 01:23:26 PM
My understanding of the Dundee charging park is that it is not a car park. It is a dedicated charging hub. Therefore the situation that can and does apply when chargers are provided in ordinary car parks shouldn't apply here. It seems to work.
Don’t think that’s the case. Have a look at the video sequence around 3.37, it shows normal parking spaces and something that looks like a non-EV (Renault Scenic ?) parked where it shouldn’t. So it is not a dedicated area, and they do have the problem of spaces being blocked. I suspect it works at present because the demand (both for charging and for normal parking) is low. It remains to be seen if even these impressive facilities will be sufficient if installed in places where parking demand is higher and if EVs are to become mainstream.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 16, 2018, 01:25:24 PM
How do they prevent the charging spaces being blocked ?
Whether it is charging spaces, Disabled spaces, or Mother and child spaces, kn*bheads will still park in them, unless they are given some sort of legal recognition and wardens to ticket errant motorists. I can understand  the frustration of motorists who cannot find a parking space, but some are simply unbelievable.
My local Lidl has Disabled spaces and Mother and Child spaces right outside the door. The car park is only about 30 yards from the furthest away space to the door and  is never above 40% occupied, but I regularly see the lazy and too self opinionated using a marked space instead of parking in a non designated bay. The spaces are in a double row, down the middle of the car park (with another single row down the perimeter of the car park), and I usually park in the space BEHIND the marked space,  then watch the "usual suspects" draw forward into the marked bays.
I saw a good bit of parking today. A fat middle aged woman, on her way to "Curves" the local fitness centre, had 30 yards of space to park in, but pulled right up to the junction to park, to save her walking that little distance extra. Seems she had a fat head, not just a fat @rse.
Rant over.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on July 16, 2018, 03:28:35 PM
So it's human nature that special-purpose parking spaces will always be misused ? But yet we're expected to believe that public charging of EVs is a viable way forward for folks without the possibility of  charging at home ? Bit of an inconsistency there.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on July 16, 2018, 07:57:29 PM
A fat middle aged woman, on her way to "Curves" the local fitness centre, had 30 yards of space to park in, but pulled right up to the junction to park, to save her walking that little distance extra. Seems she had a fat head, not just a fat @rse.
Rant over.

I have seen that on our local shopping centre Gym,  members try to park right outside the door,  they could save themselves gym membership if they walked a bit more and took stairs instead of lift (and ate less,  but lets not go there).  People go to gyms for more than exercise though,  they go to perve and for the company sometimes,  I doubt many gym goers carry on much after mid February and gyms are more than happy to welcome in the 'new years resolution' members as easy money. 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JohnAlways on July 17, 2018, 12:09:25 PM
Hi all
I go to the gym with my wife and have been for two years now. she goes to swim at the pool and I go to the gym and then for a swim. I don't go to perve, because my cancer drugs give me muscle wastage and bone thinning I go to offset the drug effect, retain and build muscle and generally feel better in myself. Not all people go to a gym for the earlier stated reasons. The gym is 4 miles from my house and the entrance to the leisure centre is 100 yds from the car park.
Walking to the gym is not feasible the time I get home from work, I go four times a week, go for walks with my wife two of the non-gym days, run around playing football with my grand kids or swimming or other excursions every Saturday. i also fit in gardening, shopping, looking after three jazz's as well as spending 45 hours a week at work plus travel each day. I'm not going to sit around bemoaning the cancer but get on with life and the gym stops the walls closing in. I might even think about retiring soon as there are lots of household projects I don't get the time to do with working and yes I'm well past retiring.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on July 17, 2018, 01:05:33 PM
Hi all
I go to the gym with my wife and have been for two years now. she goes to swim at the pool and I go to the gym and then for a swim. I don't go to perve, because my cancer drugs give me muscle wastage and bone thinning I go to offset the drug effect, retain and build muscle and generally feel better in myself. Not all people go to a gym for the earlier stated reasons. The gym is 4 miles from my house and the entrance to the leisure centre is 100 yds from the car park.
Walking to the gym is not feasible the time I get home from work, I go four times a week, go for walks with my wife two of the non-gym days, run around playing football with my grand kids or swimming or other excursions every Saturday. i also fit in gardening, shopping, looking after three jazz's as well as spending 45 hours a week at work plus travel each day. I'm not going to sit around bemoaning the cancer but get on with life and the gym stops the walls closing in. I might even think about retiring soon as there are lots of household projects I don't get the time to do with working and yes I'm well past retiring.

Well said John. There's a lot of ignorance around gym users. Some of these 'fat' people may have physical or mental health issues or be on medication that causes them to gain weight. Some can't walk that far unaided but can do really well on a gym machine that provides resistance but low impact. I will admit there are some lazy fattys too but I would caution against generalisation.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 17, 2018, 01:27:21 PM
Curves isn't a gym where people go to exercise. It is a vanity thing, where women who don't want to exercise or diet go to try and get trim. They just stand on a machine and the machine moves them. The only thing that gets trimmed is their bank account!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on July 17, 2018, 01:59:15 PM
Hi all
I go to the gym with my wife and have been for two years now. she goes to swim at the pool and I go to the gym and then for a swim. I don't go to perve, because my cancer drugs give me muscle wastage and bone thinning I go to offset the drug effect, retain and build muscle and generally feel better in myself. Not all people go to a gym for the earlier stated reasons. The gym is 4 miles from my house and the entrance to the leisure centre is 100 yds from the car park.
Walking to the gym is not feasible the time I get home from work, I go four times a week, go for walks with my wife two of the non-gym days, run around playing football with my grand kids or swimming or other excursions every Saturday. i also fit in gardening, shopping, looking after three jazz's as well as spending 45 hours a week at work plus travel each day. I'm not going to sit around bemoaning the cancer but get on with life and the gym stops the walls closing in. I might even think about retiring soon as there are lots of household projects I don't get the time to do with working and yes I'm well past retiring.

Well said John. There's a lot of ignorance around gym users. Some of these 'fat' people may have physical or mental health issues or be on medication that causes them to gain weight. Some can't walk that far unaided but can do really well on a gym machine that provides resistance but low impact. I will admit there are some lazy fattys too but I would caution against generalisation.

I purchased a cross trainer about 15 years ago for around £400,  I use it at home about 4 or 5 times a week - IMHO it is the best overall full body low impact machine you can get.  I doubt I would have got 15 years gym membership for £400 - best money I ever spent,  and I don't have to make a special effort to go anywhere to use it,  whenever I get 20 or 30 minutes free I can top my fitness up.     Many controlled trial have shown that it is better to go flat out a few times a week for say 10 to 20 minutes than to plod away for an hour or more at lower intensity,  it seems it is the peak effort that matters more than the duration.

My wife goes to local council run 'over 55' gym a couple of times a week so I do understand why people go to gym, it is just that it is funny to see them all trying to park closest to the entrance to avoid walking further than they absolutely have to,  so it looks as though their exercise is limited to when they are in the gym and they avoid any 'physical activity' out side the gym,  when using stairs and suchlike 'every day exercise ' does not figure in their thoughts.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on July 17, 2018, 02:37:40 PM
it is just that it is funny to see them all trying to park closest to the entrance to avoid walking further than they absolutely have to,  so it looks as though their exercise is limited to when they are in the gym and they avoid any 'physical activity' out side the gym,  when using stairs and suchlike 'every day exercise ' does not figure in their thoughts.
I do agree with that part. It is really amusing to hear fit young things in the gym or at classes moaning about having to park three streets away!

I lost 4 stone mostly on the cross trainer at my gym and now get most of my exercise running on the hills near my home. It is important to get a mix of activities I think.

So back on the subject, why can't electric vehicles be fitted with pedals and dynamos so the occupants can do their bit to charge up the battery and keep fit at the same time?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on July 17, 2018, 04:11:57 PM
Pretty much everyone I know who has done a lot of running has needed replacement knees and hips in later life. Those endorphins ( runners high) that circulate in your body are just to mask the damage being done to joints in lower body due to impact.  I saw a report many years ago which investigated the whole body fitness of various athletes, and runners and cyclists were way down the list due to the low number of muscles they use,  cross country skiers were the fittest followed by swimmers, because they use pretty much every muscle in their body,  but at low impact to their joints.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 17, 2018, 05:17:17 PM
So back on the subject, why can't electric vehicles be fitted with pedals and dynamos so the occupants can do their bit to charge up the battery and keep fit at the same time?
I have always advocated that for running the TV, so if you want to watch, you pedal.

My daily exercise is going up and down the 48 stairs to my flat, 4 or 5 times a day. Add to that another 14 stairs up to the loo (exercise ever increasing as me and my prostrate get older), and I get a fair work out for an old one.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 17, 2018, 06:08:08 PM
Going fine.

https://www.tesloop.com/blog/2018/7/16/tesloops-tesla-model-s-surpasses-400000-miles-643737-kilometers (https://www.tesloop.com/blog/2018/7/16/tesloops-tesla-model-s-surpasses-400000-miles-643737-kilometers)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 23, 2018, 08:43:47 AM
Watching an episode of Transport Evolved (from March) and it was saying that Beverley Hills has banned the charging of PHEVs at their public chargers. Seemingly PHEVs take a long time to charge their small capacity batteries and they were stopping full EVs from doing a rapid charge. It is not as though a PHEV needs to charge in the street, as, like a conventional hybrid, they can just drive home and use their base charger.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on July 23, 2018, 12:22:04 PM
Watching an episode of Transport Evolved (from March) and it was saying that Beverley Hills has banned the charging of PHEVs at their public chargers. Seemingly PHEVs take a long time to charge their small capacity batteries and they were stopping full EVs from doing a rapid charge. It is not as though a PHEV needs to charge in the street, as, like a conventional hybrid, they can just drive home and use their base charger.

Surely if a PHEV is allowed into a city emissions zone by virtue of its '145 mpg and ultra low emissions' (LOL) then it cannot use its ICE engine within that zone ? Which at average 30mpg while lugging 500kg of battery around is worse than a lot of 'normal' ICE cars, especially hybrids like Prius. So we have a situation where chargers are being used by 'the wrong people' - and so the inevitable contradictions /  problems begin.  I have never seen anyone 'hogging' a petrol or diesel pump at a garage.  Most company car drivers get their PHEV for lower BIK tax, going into congestion zones etc and then never charge the battery anyway, so will future entry by PHEV into congestion zones involve a check that you have enough battery power to complete you journey within the zone without using ICE power ?  It's all getting very complicated.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on July 23, 2018, 06:03:18 PM
So back on the subject, why can't electric vehicles be fitted with pedals and dynamos so the occupants can do their bit to charge up the battery and keep fit at the same time?
I have always advocated that for running the TV, so if you want to watch, you pedal.

My daily exercise is going up and down the 48 stairs to my flat, 4 or 5 times a day. Add to that another 14 stairs up to the loo (exercise ever increasing as me and my prostrate get older), and I get a fair work out for an old one.

I must have being doing something wrong when I ran most days from 1978 to 2013..averaging approx 30 miles a week and taking part in half marathons..My joints are all intact..pity about my brain cells.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 23, 2018, 06:49:42 PM
The golf killed my knees.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 23, 2018, 06:56:29 PM
Tesla look to be in their death throes. I wonder which big motor manufacturer will jump in and snap them up?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-23/tesla-asks-suppliers-for-refunds-to-help-turn-a-profit-wsj-says (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-23/tesla-asks-suppliers-for-refunds-to-help-turn-a-profit-wsj-says)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on July 23, 2018, 07:22:19 PM
Tesla look to be in their death throes. I wonder which big motor manufacturer will jump in and snap them up?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-23/tesla-asks-suppliers-for-refunds-to-help-turn-a-profit-wsj-says (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-23/tesla-asks-suppliers-for-refunds-to-help-turn-a-profit-wsj-says)

Big mouthed silicon valley company that was gonna kick Detroits as5 taken over by GM - I can see the headlines now. In 5 years people will be asking Elon who?

I wonder if TG dumped his TSLA shares in time,  he was so convinced they would make him a millionaire ?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 24, 2018, 07:56:48 AM
Quite an interesting take on the Tesla situation by "Transport Evolved".

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on July 24, 2018, 11:05:55 AM
The golf killed my knees.
Try using a club instead. Much less painful.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on July 24, 2018, 09:39:32 PM
The golf killed my knees.
Yeah, those German hatchbacks can be really cramped ...
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 31, 2018, 12:33:44 PM
Jeremy Clarkson on Tesla. Interesting 90 second video.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 02, 2018, 09:41:58 AM
Tesla's share have jumped 9% despite announcing a loss of $717m for their first quarter.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45037251 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45037251)

This video, from Transport Evolved presenter Nikki Gordon-Bloomfield, gives a well balanced and well judged review of the Tesla Model 3. There is an interesting parts talking about the Munro strip down of a Model 3 and their findings.
Also, the owner of this particular car likened the view from the drivers seat to that of the Honda Fit!

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 08, 2018, 03:48:52 PM
If this goes ahead it could be the best thing to happen to Tesla.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45118393 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45118393)

I was also surprised to see that the Tesla Model 3 is the best selling Mid-sized Premium Saloon in the US, out selling the C Class Merc, Audi A4, BMW 3 Series and Lexus IS.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 08, 2018, 05:28:01 PM
If this goes ahead it could be the best thing to happen to Tesla.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45118393 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45118393)

I was also surprised to see that the Tesla Model 3 is the best selling Mid-sized Premium Saloon in the US, out selling the C Class Merc, Audi A4, BMW 3 Series and Lexus IS.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/elon-musk-could-face-probe-from-regulators-if-plan-to-take-company-private-does-not-go-ahead-a3906171.html

Wonder how Musk would like jail ? 

Selling cars at a loss isn't hard,  BL and Rover did it for a long time.....

https://money.usnews.com/investing/stock-market-news/articles/2018-05-10/tesla-inc-tsla-stock

top 10 most valuable auto companies in the world,  Tesla at #7,  but yet to turn a profit..... how does that work ?  Honda at #5 just behind BMW.  Toyota is top dog by a country mile,  worth more than twice as much as VW.

https://money.usnews.com/investing/slideshows/the-10-most-valuable-auto-companies-in-the-world?int=undefined-rec&slide=2
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 08, 2018, 07:30:02 PM
At the very worst he would have to buy approx 50% of the shares as the rest are secure with himself, Straubel, Deepak Ahuja, and the Saudi fund (who invested knowing what was planned). Most of the shares out there are owned by die-hard Tesla fan boys, who wouldn't sell for love nor money, so the number of shares they would have to pay $420 each for is minimal. It looks like the board are on his side so there is a fair chance it will go ahead.
I don't know if he could still be investigated if the option is put before the board and rejected, or if only nothing more is done about it.
I am sure the Saudi Investment fund is ready to supply as much capital as is necessary and I am sure Elon Musk had everything arranged before tweeting. Doing that was to pull the feet from the short sellers who have lost $3b this month. so far.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 14, 2018, 12:40:58 PM
Could this be the breakthrough in electric vehicles, that the world is waiting on?
Interesting and exciting research happening, here in Scotland.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-45179722 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-45179722)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on August 14, 2018, 03:49:45 PM
Could this be the breakthrough in electric vehicles, that the world is waiting on?
Interesting and exciting research happening, here in Scotland.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-45179722 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-45179722)
Thanks for posting. Very interesting. Effectively pre-charged electrolyte.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 14, 2018, 04:01:18 PM
Maybe it will do more for air travel than road vehicles. I would be interested to see what the ingredients (and waste) is composed of.
I assume the filling station will supply "charged" fluid and the waste will go off for "recharging". It says the batteries are more energy dense than EV batteries, but no mention of how efficient the process is. If it takes a kilowatt to get 100 watts into the battery it won't be much use.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on August 19, 2018, 10:40:21 AM
Effectively pre-charged electrolyte.

That's exactly what it appears to be.

This new development appears to be some advance in the type of electrolyte and/or cell used to increase the energy density.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 19, 2018, 01:52:03 PM
Came across this interesting video on the changes afoot in battery technology.


Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 05, 2018, 10:29:57 AM
Mercedes Benz have released their new EQC EV. Like Jaguar they are going for the SUV market.
Doesn't look as nice as the I-PACE, to my eyes, but I am sure it will appeal to Mercedes Benz buyers.

(https://cnet1.cbsistatic.com/img/zyuDyiUIUQoEA1HGZ3-Khk-pGEs=/1600x900/2018/08/31/3af8644e-c035-4bdd-bdf2-85bf2d55365d/2019-mercedes-benz-eqc-0011.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on September 06, 2018, 09:50:04 AM
Interesting what is defined as an SUV. In the US these are huge vehicles whereas in Europe they are much more modest. In general, I think cars have migrated a lot more to towards sitting upright with legs at a sensible angle, simply to provide interior room, rather than the more reclined designs of the 70s-00s. My first experience was driving a Renault 5 after selling my Triumph Spitfire. And the Jazz itself follows a similar design philosophy.

I don't need a 4x4. Most people  don't. But I do like and appreciate the more upright stance and slightly raised ride height of an SUV. It is also a much easier proposition for me with my bad back. Driving in to Leeds today in my RAV4 with the heated seat on full all the way has been a great aid for me as I am having yet another 'bad back day'.

I am rambling a bit, but what I am coming round to is that the SUV layout may lend itself more to Electric, and certainly to hybrid designs. It allows more room all around the car and under the cabin for batteries and motors. No longer does the motive machinery need to sit in a box at the front (or the back). It can be placed where it is best located for balance - in the middle of the vehicle.

Having said all of this, my RAV4 has the battery pack under the rear seats, which means there is around a four inch step in the middle of the loading area when the seats are folded flat. And this is the reason for my bad back, maneuvering an awkward shaped not flat packed Ikea chair into the car yesterday.

Ironically, the chair is for my bad back, and it would have fitted easily into my Mk.1 Jazz, if only I had chosen to use that yesterday!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 06, 2018, 11:10:51 AM
Richard. I feel for you. I too suffer with my back. When I used to drive the FIAT Ducato for work I always felt it was the ideal driving position, as well as ease of entry and exit.

(https://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NzY4WDEwMjQ=/z/dDIAAOSwjzJa11~x/$_86.JPG)

However, I feel as vehicles get larger congestion just gets worse. and so many SUV drivers think they are even bigger than they are, and refuse to go through gaps I could drive a bus through. It may be, in the future, that once vehicles are mainly electric then Vehicle Excise Duty will be relative to physical size rather than the current emissions based.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on September 06, 2018, 12:33:35 PM
The country roads I travel to beekeeping are single track with passing spaces. Most 4x4s are to wide to pass  unless they go off road - which in some places = deep ditch. Unsurprisingly few are seen on the and the ones that do have drivers who cannot/will not reverse to a passing space  nor go off road to  make way.. which is understandable as most are on summer road tyres which are useless in mud and snow.

A Volvo XC60 was parked outside our local Asda- it took up 1.25 x a parking space...Charge them or road AREA...
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 15, 2018, 11:49:42 AM
MacDonald's, in the Netherlands, are installing EV charging stations in everyone of their restaurant car parks.

https://www.electrive.com/2018/09/12/nl-every-mcdonalds-branch-to-get-a-fast-charging-station/ (https://www.electrive.com/2018/09/12/nl-every-mcdonalds-branch-to-get-a-fast-charging-station/)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on September 15, 2018, 03:48:34 PM
MacDonald's, in the Netherlands, are installing EV charging stations in everyone of their restaurant car parks.

https://www.electrive.com/2018/09/12/nl-every-mcdonalds-branch-to-get-a-fast-charging-station/ (https://www.electrive.com/2018/09/12/nl-every-mcdonalds-branch-to-get-a-fast-charging-station/)

So no more fast food ?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 19, 2018, 10:08:23 AM
The new Audi e-tron. Not signalling at a junction near you, from 2019.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: RichardA on September 19, 2018, 11:03:07 AM
I'm convinced Audi's sweeping indicators are designed to encourage their customers to use their indicators, at least as a means of showing off if nothing else!  ;)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 19, 2018, 11:55:38 AM
I'm convinced Audi's sweeping indicators are designed to encourage their customers to use their indicators, at least as a means of showing off if nothing else!  ;)
You could be right! The e-tron in the video has brake lights which start in the middle and sweeps to the edges. (See 8 minutes in)
Are cameras instead of mirrors legal in UK? Video says it is the plan in Europe. I know cars only needed a mirror, and old vehicles only had in interior mirror. I'll have to check out the regs.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 19, 2018, 11:59:56 AM
Yes, quite legal. Found this:

MOT Test of Mirrors – Visibility (3)
View to the rear
This section is now covered under the new general section ‘Visibility’ (3), which includes Windscreens, and is repeated in the relevant section on this website here.

The Tester will check that all mandatory rear-view mirrors or indirect vision devices provide an adequate view to the rear from the driver’s seat.

Indirect vision cameras may replace mirrors on some vehicles. If such devices are fitted, the camera(s) and the screen will be inspected.

Rear view mirrors and indirect vision devices can be any of the following positions:

an exterior mirror or device that provides a view along the offside of the vehicle
an exterior mirror or device that provides a view along the nearside of the vehicle
an interior mirror or device which provides a view to the rear of the vehicle

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on September 19, 2018, 02:55:18 PM
Cameras have their advantages (eg less likely to be damaged) but one probably needs a backwards-looking cameras on the front corners to cover the blind spot over the driver's shoulder in addition to any camera on the back. However, putting cameras on the vehicle body makes them lower than mirrors and hence more vulnerable to collecting muck. I also wonder how well the sensors can handle a long dose of direct sunshine without quality deterioration.

Going slightly off-topic, but I've often wondered why aircraft don't have backwards-looking nose-mounted cameras so the pilot can see the condition of the engines (eg a fire warning) and wings without having to send someone to look. Such problems are infrequent but the cost would be negligble compared to the cost of the plane.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 19, 2018, 03:12:49 PM
However, putting cameras on the vehicle body makes them lower than mirrors and hence more vulnerable to collecting muck.
If you had a look at the video you would see that the cameras replace the side mirrors. They are smaller and more aerodynamic than door mirrors.
Mind you, the cost of replacing one would be quite sore, and I don't know how I would get on with the display being mounted just below the normal mirror position.
Regarding cost - I imagine if you could afford the car in the first place, the cost of replacing a "mirror" would put you neither up nor down.

(https://www.irishnews.com/picturesarchive/irishnews/irishnews/2018/08/07/231020321-5938783e-7c64-4dbd-803f-2836bc585c0f.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on September 19, 2018, 04:55:37 PM
However, putting cameras on the vehicle body makes them lower than mirrors and hence more vulnerable to collecting muck.
If you had a look at the video you would see that the cameras replace the side mirrors. They are smaller and more aerodynamic than door mirrors.
Mind you, the cost of replacing one would be quite sore, and I don't know how I would get on with the display being mounted just below the normal mirror position.
Regarding cost - I imagine if you could afford the car in the first place, the cost of replacing a "mirror" would put you neither up nor down.

Hope camera lens is heated for winter use, cameras do tend to have lower dynamic range than human eye which may cause sun and lights of following cars to blank out display.  Pity when they now have chance to position display anywhere they want that they didn't give a larger display and mount display higher ( and on dash to be more in normal eye line ) after going to trouble of fitting a camera, but IMHO camera and screen just extra stuff to go wrong.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 19, 2018, 05:03:09 PM
Pity when they now have chance to position display anywhere they want that they didn't give a larger display and mount display higher ( and on dash to be more in normal eye line ) after going to trouble of fitting a camera
I thought the same. The door could be shaped to cover the mirror location, giving a larger screen in a more natural position. Then it dawned on me. Cameras in place of mirrors are illegal in some markets (the USA for instance), so do do that for Europe would require a different door for other locations.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: RichardA on September 20, 2018, 10:24:58 AM
Carwow indepth review of the Jaguar I-Pace:

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 20, 2018, 11:12:48 AM
That will definitely be my first choice when I win the lottery. I have even chosen the colour!

(https://hips.hearstapps.com/amv-prod-cad-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/images/media/51/25-cars-worth-waiting-for-jaguar-i-pace-inline-photo-677393-s-original.jpg?crop=1xw:1xh;center,top&resize=800:*)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 20, 2018, 11:52:18 AM
This is a great video of a car that could do well once it is available in the UK. The Tesla Model 3, and as usual from Jonny Smith, no histrionics.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 01, 2018, 04:46:33 PM
Musks problems continue to mount up - now he has regulators on his case over market manipulation / fraud- and they have a very strong case against him.  Tesla may get snapped up by a proper car maker ( ducks ) as the share price continues to plummet...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45306117

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45679024

share price has rebounded today after Musk stepped down as Chairman,  but still volatile.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 01, 2018, 05:49:36 PM
He still wants to take Tesla private. Maybe, as the share price drops, he will snap up the shares himself. He is the worlds 80th richest man with a personal worth of $20.1 billion. He has also said Tesla is very close to profitability.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 11, 2018, 09:50:55 AM
The thing is the batteries in EV behave the same as the normal lead acid battery in your ICE car, but with other problems. When Lithium based batteries are kept fully charged it damages them ( they normally store some chemistries of lithium batteries at around 40% charged to prevent damage in storage and for longest shelf life, and as far as I am aware non are stored at 100%), if they are allowed to fully discharge you are looking at a brick and the cost of a new battery. The tales of 'batteries lasting 100,000 miles + in Taxis' are a bit misleading as if a battery is used regularly and kept within the top 50% of charge it extends its life ( just like lead acid, lithium batteries are sensitive to DoD, depth of discharge) - in early Tesla cars there were many tales of batteries failing 'bricking' due to car standing and not being used enough.  Tesla fitted cars with GPS tracking and could track the battery state remotely, if their system highlighted a problem they would often go out and take the car away in a closed lorry ( Rolls Royce would also use closed lorries as it was bad publicity to see one of their cars being taken away for repairs) and fix the problem,  but in early days misuse of battery was not covered in the warranty and a new battery was $40,000.

So just like normal ICE car lead acid batteries fail due to low mileage, lack of charging and overcharging, the EV batteries are the same.  Also in hot places the rate of battery charge has to be reduced or it will fatally damage the battery, and in cold places battery output is reduced --- and so it goes...

Car range is also based on traveling at 50 to 55mph as well,  tales of motorway speeds reducing range by 30%.   So a cold, wet day on a motorway is Tesla hell..
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 11, 2018, 11:17:21 AM
Most EVs are software limited, to prevent the batteries full charging or discharging. 100% Is normally less than 90% of the ultimate charge. And fully discharged is well short of damaging discharged.
Charging is controlled to prevent overheating of the battery and the better systems have cooling and heating of the battery as required. It was the control of charging that lead to the Nissan "Chargegate" issues. The Leaf does not have active battery cooling.
Current batteries, and range of EVs, is probably perfectly adequate for the majority of users, as long as you have access to charging, and improving technology (battery and charging) will make that even better.
The likes of myself, who will have at home charging, and seldom do 100 miles in a day, will find current vehicles perfectly adequate, especially as they drop into the "affordable" range.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kenneve on October 11, 2018, 12:35:05 PM
I still think there are currently too many obstacles to keeping an EV on the road.
I still do roughly 10k miles a year, and I'm off to see my daughter in North Lincolnshire on Saturday, a round trip of about 250 miles. Yes, I suppose if the EV had an on-board charger, then I could plug in when I got there, but i guess Elf & Safety would not like mains leads lying around.
What has not been talked about much, is the extra load on the National Grid. They are already close to trouble in extra cold weather, without having 1000's of EVs to contend with, just have a look at the Gridwatch website on a cold frosty morning.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 11, 2018, 12:53:52 PM
Most EVs are software limited, to prevent the batteries full charging or discharging. 100% Is normally less than 90% of the ultimate charge. And fully discharged is well short of damaging discharged.
Charging is controlled to prevent overheating of the battery and the better systems have cooling and heating of the battery as required. It was the control of charging that lead to the Nissan "Chargegate" issues. The Leaf does not have active battery cooling.
Current batteries, and range of EVs, is probably perfectly adequate for the majority of users, as long as you have access to charging, and improving technology (battery and charging) will make that even better.
The likes of myself, who will have at home charging, and seldom do 100 miles in a day, will find current vehicles perfectly adequate, especially as they drop into the "affordable" range.

Nissan have an algorithm that when new the battery only uses 50% of capacity, and as battery ages and capacity drop this % is increased to maintain range. As the % used increases it is a bit of a vicious circle that the more capacity that gets used the quicker the battery chemistry gets gets damaged. I believe Tesla and may be Nissan now have an 'emergency button' that lets people access the bit that does not normally get used, but as battery ages this 'reserve' gets smaller and smaller, and its use can damage battery.  Some second hand EV have batteries damaged by mis-use, the option is leasing the battery but that can cost more than some people spend on fuel every month anyway. There seems to be quite a few used EV for sale considering not that many are sold in real terms, wonder why ?  Nissan claim they did a poll of owners and majority of people would not go back to ICE after driving an EV, but sample size was only about 70, - lies, damned lies and poll results.....

Most of our families live about 40 miles away, a round trip of 80 miles (but very often roadworks and detours ), without top up charging that would be pushing into 'range anxiety' territory on a few small EV, especially in cold weather. We have just come back from Cornwall and that trip in run the mill EV would have needed 3 charge stops each way.  I will let the early adopters who love the novelty take the pain, and when things are sorted I will probably no longer be driving anyway.  Would maybe get a cheap EV as second car to leave on drive as a security device ( so crims thing someone at home) and for shopping, but not as a main car.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 11, 2018, 01:28:45 PM
I still think there are currently too many obstacles to keeping an EV on the road.
I still do roughly 10k miles a year, and I'm off to see my daughter in North Lincolnshire on Saturday, a round trip of about 250 miles. Yes, I suppose if the EV had an on-board charger, then I could plug in when I got there, but i guess Elf & Safety would not like mains leads lying around.
What has not been talked about much, is the extra load on the National Grid. They are already close to trouble in extra cold weather, without having 1000's of EVs to contend with, just have a look at the Gridwatch website on a cold frosty morning.


I seriously considered a Nissan Leaf before I bought my current car. In fact I spent over 6 months chewing it over. I only do a third of the mileage you do but, during the consideration period, 2 or 3 trips came up that involved driving deep into what the EV fans call "charge point deserts." There were another 2 or 3 trips which would have been doable but a bit inconvenient. None of these trips were long enough to justify the hiring of an ICE car.


Oddly the Nissan Leaf is most people's idea of a broadly affordable EV but I have been amazed at how little attention has been given to the latest iteration of the Renault Zoe. 41 kwh battery in a small (Clio size) car and a genuine, no compromise 150 mile minimum range. It would do me but to get one without the battery lease is well north of £20,000 and there are vanishingly few available used.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 11, 2018, 01:50:14 PM
What has not been talked about much, is the extra load on the National Grid. They are already close to trouble in extra cold weather, without having 1000's of EVs to contend with, just have a look at the Gridwatch website on a cold frosty morning.
Everyone seems to worry about this except the National Grid themselves, who tell us there is more than sufficient capacity.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 11, 2018, 01:59:28 PM
Nissan claim they did a poll of owners and majority of people would not go back to ICE after driving an EV, but sample size was only about 70,
Owners who replace PHEVs, for the main part, replace them with BEVs. Again, not a huge sample size. Most PHEV owners feel they can cope with the limited range of a BEV after their experience with the Hybrid vehicle.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 11, 2018, 03:17:50 PM
What has not been talked about much, is the extra load on the National Grid. They are already close to trouble in extra cold weather, without having 1000's of EVs to contend with, just have a look at the Gridwatch website on a cold frosty morning.
Everyone seems to worry about this except the National Grid themselves, who tell us there is more than sufficient capacity.

I've read a bit about this and actually seen a National Grid senior bod interviewed by Robert Llewellyn on his Fully Charged show. The key seems to be that most EV's will be charged at night when demand on the grid is low.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 11, 2018, 03:34:57 PM
Nissan claim they did a poll of owners and majority of people would not go back to ICE after driving an EV, but sample size was only about 70,
Owners who replace PHEVs, for the main part, replace them with BEVs. Again, not a huge sample size. Most PHEV owners feel they can cope with the limited range of a BEV after their experience with the Hybrid vehicle.

PHEV outselling BEV in UK by massive amount,  company cars will be PHEV ( who need a good range and are making use of plug in tax breaks) and BEV will be private purchases.  Sales of new BEV actually down this year after a peak in 2017.  If BEV get too popular there will be queues at limited charging stations. In most things the sales lead the infrastructure, which catches up later due to demand,  but with BEV the infrastructure has to come first before sales will rise. Up till now resale values of BEV have dropped faster than the proverbial lead balloon,  good news for used car buyers  but not original purchaser, and without people buying new there will not be any coming down into used car market.

https://www.businessgreen.com/bg/news-analysis/3028279/is-2018s-electric-vehicle-sales-slump-just-a-bump-in-the-road

https://www.statista.com/statistics/310696/pure-electric-plug-in-cars-registered-in-the-united-kingdom/
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 11, 2018, 03:42:21 PM
I've read a bit about this and actually seen a National Grid senior bod interviewed by Robert Llewellyn on his Fully Charged show. The key seems to be that most EV's will be charged at night when demand on the grid is low.

Lunar panels generating electricity ?  Wind often drops at night as well (when the sun, which drives the wind goes to bed).   

Off peak was OK when fossil fuels powered the power stations and they had to be kept running overnight because it took such a long time to shut them down and start them up that power companies could not do it ( that is where economy 7 came from ).  But now in the winter when you need power the most there is not much solar,  and plenty of cold windless days and nights in the winter.  Many industries run night shifts now as well, and storage heaters are being promoted again as 'clean heating' to replace dirty gas fired domestic boilers LOL.

https://www.fischerfutureheat.com/2017/03/effect-gas-central-heating-has-on-the-environment/
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 11, 2018, 05:12:30 PM
Watched a video today, made by a guy who has had his Tesla Model 3 for 10,000 miles now. His running cost for fuel was just over $200, compared to just under $1400 dollars for the Pontiac G6 he replaced. Maintenance costs were zero.
That will be the biggest thing to get people switching.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on October 11, 2018, 05:42:18 PM
Off peak was OK when fossil fuels powered the power stations and they had to be kept running overnight because it took such a long time to shut them down and start them up that power companies could not do it ( that is where economy 7 came from ).  But now in the winter when you need power the most there is not much solar,  and plenty of cold windless days and nights in the winter.  Many industries run night shifts now as well, and storage heaters are being promoted again as 'clean heating' to replace dirty gas fired domestic boilers LOL.
Nuclear is the main power source which, once started, is best kept running at close to full output until it needs to be shut down for inspection and maintenance. However, nuclear's share of UK's energy pie is shrinking and we might be pushing up daisies before more gets built. Tidal is another near-continouous energy source which the politicians keep backing way from.

You can get a feel for the daily variation in the market price for electricity by looking at the half-hourly rates for the Octopus Agile tariff https://octopus.energy/agile/ which includes a link to 12 months of half-hourly rates. Summer nights tend to be cheapest with winter nights no much lower than the day rates (perhaps the above-mentioned off-peak heating demand).

When I'm next vehicle shopping I'll be examining the PHEV options. Around 30 miles battery range would get me across town and back again with power to spare and avoid the engine firing up for short journeys when it's extra inefficient, particularly in winter, because of the warm-up time. On longer trips the battery would help the petrol engine run at its optimum efficiency.   
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 11, 2018, 05:54:01 PM
Wait till road pricing comes in, governments always have one eye on the revenue stream and when petrol and diesel revenue starts to drop they will introduce road pricing which will ensure that EV users of out-of-town roads contribute the same as they do now in fuels and VED for average miles per annum and people who use city roads will be bled dry.  EV are in a honeymoon period at the moment when governments will wait till a certain number of users are commited before springing their trap.  Uber will not escape either with autonomous taxis as the government will have to raise money to pay the benefits of people they put out of a job.... watch this space.

The government can no longer control fuel prices by raising electricity costs as this will affect every energy user, but they may insist on installation of smart meters that can detect when an EV is being charged.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/26/treasury-tax-electric-cars-vat-fuel-duty
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on October 12, 2018, 01:14:11 PM
What has not been talked about much, is the extra load on the National Grid. They are already close to trouble in extra cold weather, without having 1000's of EVs to contend with, just have a look at the Gridwatch website on a cold frosty morning.
Everyone seems to worry about this except the National Grid themselves, who tell us there is more than sufficient capacity.

Most charging will be done at NIGHT.. Come home after a day's work, plug in and start charging at Off Peak rates 8pm to 6am... Smart Meters will have cheap rates at those hours.. outside them rates rise 50%..( I forecast - nothing like that is in practise but it will be  and Smart Meters no doubt can be used to throttle consumption).

Our Smart Meter is a Mark1 and is as useful as an icecream in a furnace.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 12, 2018, 02:06:46 PM
EV chargers are where the Smart bit comes in. They do not just charge like an old fashioned battery charger, but allow you to programme when and how they will charge and take into account tariffs and such. And they are getting better with every iteration.
I wonder what will happen to the sales of PHEVs now that the government has removed the grant, as of 9th November. I wonder if that had something to do with the peak in sales recently.

Car groups condemn grant cuts for electric and hybrid vehicles (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45831150)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on October 12, 2018, 04:28:10 PM
https://www.carbuyer.co.uk/news/160094/new-honda-urban-ev-2019-prices-specs-and-release-date

Er, no thanks.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 12, 2018, 05:24:19 PM
https://www.carbuyer.co.uk/news/160094/new-honda-urban-ev-2019-prices-specs-and-release-date
That report is from March. I posted video links then. Personally I don't think it looks any worse than the original 205 or early Golf models, nor indeed my Mk 1 Jazz. What was on show was just the concept car, with its silly big wheels  and blue Honda motif. I will be interested to see what the production model looks like.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 12, 2018, 08:04:17 PM
A sobering article about the place of renewables in a reliable, flexible power supply system.

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/611683/the-25-trillion-reason-we-cant-rely-on-batteries-to-clean-up-the-grid/
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on October 12, 2018, 09:00:47 PM
A sobering article about the place of renewables in a reliable, flexible power supply system.

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/611683/the-25-trillion-reason-we-cant-rely-on-batteries-to-clean-up-the-grid/
Thanks - interesting article.

It would be interesting to see if the electricity demand is seasonal due, for example, air conditioning which logically should be highest when there's plenty of solar energy. People will still want air conditioning when the sun goes down but that could be handled with some thermal ballast which gets cooled in the middle of the day when there's surplus solar power. The signal to do that would be lower midday electricity prices during sunny weather. People would also top up the vehicle batteries at that time.

The problem of carrying energy over between seasons isn't easy to solve. Sometimes I wonder if I should heat up the ground under the lawn during the summer and then use if for a ground source heat pump during the winter.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 14, 2018, 10:13:27 AM
People will still want air conditioning when the sun goes down but that could be handled with some thermal ballast which gets cooled in the middle of the day when there's surplus solar power.

When we lived in Sydney a lot of the larger buildings used to do the opposite,  they used surplus nighttime energy to make huge ice blocks and then used them to help the aircon cool the buildings during day.  One thing we did notice about buildings in Australia is that architects had lost the plot.  The older buildings had high ceilings, smaller windows, overhanging roofs (to keep sun off the walls) and ventilation built into ceilings and walls.  The newer buildings had massive areas of glass, no overhanging walls and low ceilings.  The fact is the older buildings did not need aircon and felt cool inside even on the hottest days,  the new buildings needed massive amounts of aircon even in the winter - WTF !
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 14, 2018, 12:49:29 PM
I am amazed at how many Tesla Model S cars I see around Edinburgh and the southern edge of Fife. There is hardly a day goes by I don't see at least one, and sometimes several. They are nearly as common as the Jaguar XF around here, a car very similar in appearance. My wife is getting fed up with me saying "Oh there's another Tesla". There is a sales outlet in Edinburgh, which may account for their popularity. I always find a preponderance of unusual cars in an area that has a dealership for them. We used to have a load of TVRs when the dealership was in Dunfermline.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on October 14, 2018, 12:58:33 PM
One thing we did notice about buildings in Australia is that architects had lost the plot.  The older buildings had high ceilings, smaller windows, overhanging roofs (to keep sun off the walls) and ventilation built into ceilings and walls.  The newer buildings had massive areas of glass, no overhanging walls and low ceilings.  The fact is the older buildings did not need aircon and felt cool inside even on the hottest days,  the new buildings needed massive amounts of aircon even in the winter - WTF !
The first thing I learned when working in the tropics is that windows should only be on the N & S facing walls with sufficient roof overhang or other screening to provide shading. Rooms with windows facing E and W got cooked in either the morning or the afternoon. If the buildings were low then the fix was to plant some trees to provide the shading.
 
This became something I also considered when last house-buying in UK as the house I was moving from had some big west-facing windows resulting in rooms cooking during hot weather.

However, architects tend to create what looks nice and developers are interested in what fits the site without any regard for orientation.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 17, 2018, 10:29:15 AM
Jaguar are seemingly thinking of going all electric. (https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/jaguar-considers-transformation-ev-only-brand)
It is part of the drive to reduce the "Brand" emission levels for themselves and Land Rover.
Interesting short video below.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: SteveOne on October 18, 2018, 10:44:24 AM
69 pages and no mention of FCEVs (Fuel Cell Electric Vehicles) ?
I think this would solve many of the problems - if we coud figure out how to produce them.  They are refuelled similar to a petrol/diesel, so nice and quick.  The taxman can get in on the act. The H2 can be produced by the filling station as and when the electric grid can supply the load. People without driveway parking or garages ( i.e. most car users) can use the technology.
I don't know how reliable the fuel cells are ? or how long they last - but they must be better than producing all those batteries. I think FCEVs are significantly lighter than BEVs - comparable to current gasoline powered cars.
I know the filling stations can be expensive - but would that still be true if they were as common as petrol/diesel/LPG outlets ?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 18, 2018, 05:58:09 PM
69 pages and no mention of FCEVs (Fuel Cell Electric Vehicles) ?
I think this would solve many of the problems - if we coud figure out how to produce them.  They are refuelled similar to a petrol/diesel, so nice and quick.  The taxman can get in on the act. The H2 can be produced by the filling station as and when the electric grid can supply the load. People without driveway parking or garages ( i.e. most car users) can use the technology.
I don't know how reliable the fuel cells are ? or how long they last - but they must be better than producing all those batteries. I think FCEVs are significantly lighter than BEVs - comparable to current gasoline powered cars.
I know the filling stations can be expensive - but would that still be true if they were as common as petrol/diesel/LPG outlets ?

By the time you have used electricity that could be used to charge a BEV directly to make hydrogen (not very efficient) and then have the efficiency (they are pretty efficient but produce a lot of waste heat and run at very high temp) of the fuel cell you have probably not used energy wisely.  Add to that the problem of storing Hydrogen at high pressure at the filling station and  in a vehicle it becomes a bit of a nonsense.   They are lighter than a BEV though,  but fuel cell vehicles have been around for a long time and never caught on ( maybe caught fire though).   Sales of BEV actually peaked in mid 2017 and have been dropping since,  but so have sales of normal vehicles.

The inability for governments to levy tax on electricity used to charge vehicles will mean that GPS tracking and road pricing is inevitable ( at least UK may have their own GPS system by then and not the EU one - they have kicked out a major contributor and their main contractor,  suddenly UK have become 'the enemy' and are not to be trusted LOL).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 18, 2018, 06:00:52 PM
Funny you should have posted about FCEVs, and at the time you did. I found out about this company just this morning, was fascinated by the technology and their business plan, and was about to post link at 10:30 this morning. However I ran out of time for my chauffeuring duties, so decided to leave it until later.
Riversimple: UK based Hydrogen Fuel Cell Eco Car Company (https://www.riversimple.com/)

I have looked at Hydrogen Fuel Cells for vehicles. There is even a Hydrogen Filling Station near by!

I posted a bit on the Electric Aircraft thread, about Loganair planning to to modify an aircraft, powered by electricity, for use in the Orkney islands. I imaging it will be Hydrogen powered, as Orkney has a glut of cheap Hydrogen from the Tidal generation trials. And for an aircraft, HFC makes a lot of sense.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 18, 2018, 06:06:39 PM
UK may have their own GPS system by then and not the EU one
GPS in the UK is currently owned and operated by the US

From the OS web site: GPS (Global Positioning System) is a satellite-based positioning and navigation system owned and operated by the US Department of Defense. Access is free for all users and the service is available 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. GPS is an all weather system that works anywhere in the world. GPS can give an instantaneous, real-time position to within approximately 10m using a single handheld receiver.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 18, 2018, 06:11:19 PM
Add to that the problem of storing Hydrogen at high pressure at the filling station and  in a vehicle it becomes a bit of a nonsense.
Compressed gas is currently stored by industry, all over the UK, and daily transported by trucks, vans and cars, up and down our road system, so I don't think that is a valid reason for not having FCEVs!

Hydrogen Filling Station.
(https://pureenergycentre.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Hydrogen-fueling-station.png)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 18, 2018, 06:42:15 PM
UK may have their own GPS system by then and not the EU one
GPS in the UK is currently owned and operated by the US

From the OS web site: GPS (Global Positioning System) is a satellite-based positioning and navigation system owned and operated by the US Department of Defense. Access is free for all users and the service is available 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. GPS is an all weather system that works anywhere in the world. GPS can give an instantaneous, real-time position to within approximately 10m using a single handheld receiver.

Well aware that we use American satellites at present but EU has plans for their own system that we are already involved in and have contributed well over a billion Euro to, but EU then said UK could no longer access the more secret parts after B..X.T - so UK is looking at building their own system, but Americans say we are more than welcome to continue using their infrastructure, at least we found our who our real friends are  :o
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 18, 2018, 07:07:44 PM
Add to that the problem of storing Hydrogen at high pressure at the filling station and  in a vehicle it becomes a bit of a nonsense.
Compressed gas is currently stored by industry, all over the UK, and daily transported by trucks, vans and cars, up and down our road system, so I don't think that is a valid reason for not having FCEVs!


Hydrogen fuel cell cars have been around for a long time, most motor manufacturers have produced concept cars, and some even leased them to people ( would not sell them ) but they have never been more than a testbed.  Lots more ways of storing hydrogen than as a pressurised gas though https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_storage
but fuel cells run incredibly hot and hydrogen tanks on vehicles could easily explode - there is also energy required to compress hydrogen, normally 10% of the energy contained in the hydrogen.  Specific energy of hydrogen is also a lot less than hydrocarbons, ( as is pretty much everything except plutonium ).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 18, 2018, 09:01:21 PM
You can currently buy the Toyota Mirai here in the UK, but the price puts it in Jaguar I-PACE territory.
Toyota Mirai (https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/toyota/mirai)

Hyundai ix35 was available here but no longer appears to be on sale.
Hyundai ix35 FCEV (https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/hyundai/ix35-fuel-cell)

Honda Clarity FCEV is supposed to be available in the UK very soon. It was supposed to be available, late 2018, but that doesn't look likely! I think we could be lucky to see it in 2019, unless Honda's BEV knocks it into the long grass.
Honda Clarity. (https://www.honda.co.uk/cars/new/coming-soon/clarity-fuel-cell/overview.html)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 19, 2018, 07:20:58 AM
A report, today, by the Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy committee says that the government plans for zero emission cars and vans, planned for 2040, should be brought forward to 2032.
However, Mike Hawes, head of the Society of Motor Manufacturers & Traders (SMMT), said calls to shift to entirely electric-powered cars by 2032 were "unrealistic".
Perhaps the SMMT would like to explain how this would be a problem since most of the worlds motor manufacturing nations have plans in place for zero emissions by 2030 (Germany, Japan, Korea, China and India).
Does the SMMT envisage us importing all the unsold ICE vehicles from these nations or perhaps importing gas guzzlers from the US (perhaps Mike Hawes’ response was written by the Ford and GM participants in the SMMT)?
The Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy committee also said that the government has to get more involved in providing the necessary infrastructure for EVs, reiterating that the UK's charging infrastructure was still inadequate, and gave rise to "range anxiety" - potential buyers of electric vehicles worrying whether they will be able to reach the next charging station. The report said the government had left delivery of charging points to councils and private companies when a "shared approach" was needed. They also called the changes to grants, announced last week, were "perverse".
The original 2040 ban was unclear about hybrids, but the Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy committee says that "zero should mean zero" and called for the government to bring forward "a clear, precise target for new sales of cars and vans to be truly zero emission by 2032".

The report details. (https://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/business-energy-industrial-strategy/news-parliament-2017/electric-vehicles-report-published-17-19/)
BBC’s take on it. (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45899580)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: SteveOne on October 19, 2018, 10:51:21 AM
FCEVs are certainly a more distant reality than BEVs - but I don't think BEVs work for significant numbers of our population; especially  those without access to home charge points. FCEVs may be less efficient, but batteries are short-lived and have high manufacturing costs and are not exactly green.
As Jocko points out, FCEVs can work in most vehicle types including aircraft.  It's also used in buses etc.
My original point was just to widen the discussion from the current BEV dominated discussion.
We need a breakthough in at least one of these technologies if we're to see an end to fossil fuelled cars by 2032.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 19, 2018, 07:41:09 PM
Been looking at e-bikes, seem to have the same problem as e-cars. The range can vary from 10 to 30 miles 'depending on weather and terrain' - at least you can carry a spare battery on an e-bike.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 19, 2018, 08:08:23 PM
Interesting video here on e-bikes.


Some e-bikes can do almost 100 miles on a charge, though I'd rather be waterboarded than sit on a bike for 100 miles!

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/reviews/e-bikes/specialized-vado-turbo-2-0
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on October 19, 2018, 10:25:38 PM
A report, today, by the Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy committee says that the government plans for zero emission cars and vans, planned for 2040, should be brought forward to 2032.
For zero to actually mean zero then the electricity for charging the batteries needs to be generated without producing emissions. Have the politicians considered this minor detail? There's also the energy expended in moving a big lump of battery along the roads. Is this efficient?

Nonetheless, I would personally bring forward the deadline for new petrol or diesel only vehicles to more like 2025. Hybrid technology to keep the engine operating efficiently and cleanly (Which? reports that the Kia Niro hybrid doesn't meet its claimed emissions) and recovers energy when decelerating.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on October 20, 2018, 08:06:40 AM
... Mike Hawes, head of the Society of Motor Manufacturers & Traders (SMMT), said calls to shift to entirely electric-powered cars by 2032 were "unrealistic".
Perhaps the SMMT would like to explain how this would be a problem ...

I suspect you’ve answered your own question in the second half of your comment by referring to the lack of strategy or planning for a public charging infrastructure that meets the mass-market need. SMMT members will be looking at their inability to sell ICEs when the ban comes into force, whilst at the same time people will be reluctant to buy BEVs because they’ll have nowhere to charge them. Inevitably Joe Public will simply hang on to his last-generation ICE for a few years more. Presumably the thinking is that implementing, let alone bringing forward, an ICE ban willl hasten the charging infrastructure but at present there’s no obvious sign of anyone picking up that challenge. So SMMT members will be looking at a big hole in their sales figures in a few years time, which is why they think bringing that forward is “unrealistic”. The other countries you mention may have a more enlightened approach to the charging issue (or a greater proportion of properties with off-road charging potential) that enables them to push ahead quicker.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 20, 2018, 08:43:30 AM
For zero to actually mean zero then the electricity for charging the batteries needs to be generated without producing emissions. Have the politicians considered this minor detail?
Scottish power has already sold off all its conventional power generation capability and will generate all its energy from wind turbines. It is to invest a further £5.2 billion, over the next 4 years, in wind turbines.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kenneve on October 20, 2018, 09:15:42 AM
For zero to actually mean zero then the electricity for charging the batteries needs to be generated without producing emissions. Have the politicians considered this minor detail?
Scottish power has already sold off all its conventional power generation capability and will generate all its energy from wind turbines. It is to invest a further £5.2 billion, over the next 4 years, in wind turbines.

So, on a nice calm day, the lights will go out? or perhaps you will be buying energy from 'Down South'?
I'm sorry, but I just can't see how Scotland will survive on wind power alone.
As I've said before, you only have to look at the Gridwatch website, to see how close, we already get to maximum power generation on a cold winters day, without having to charge 1000's of cars.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 20, 2018, 09:49:33 AM
So, on a nice calm day, the lights will go out? or perhaps you will be buying energy from 'Down South'?
I have no idea either, but they must have some form of plan in place. They have even sold off their hydro schemes. I can only surmise that they are looking ahead to mass storage(!) or such. Mind you, most of Scotland is windy every day, if not everywhere. The only time the turbines stop up here in when there is excess capacity. The wind farms I can see from here have always at least one turbine turning.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on October 20, 2018, 10:11:13 AM
The plan is to invest in mass electricity storage.. but a detailed analysis shows that will not be economic - thinks calm days in winter.. Ditto solar energy.. Some form of standby generation available within a few hours will always be needed.

Large scale storage using lithium is likely to have a short lifespan due battery constraints.  Vanadium batteries are in their infancy but have much longer lifespans and are starting to become available commercially.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 20, 2018, 10:27:23 AM
I have done further reading up on Scottish Power, and their plans are to use the money from the sale to invest in Tidal,Solar and Wind. Tidal is producing a lot of energy, particularly in the North of Scotland, but requires big investment for commercial production. In the interim they will buy from the facilities they have sold (obviously contracted in the sell out deal).
Regarding battery storage, all the BEVs whose batteries wear out, will provide masses of future grid storage. Renault are already big into that. And as all EV decriers keep telling us, the batteries only last a couple of years, in cars!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 20, 2018, 10:31:36 AM
I have done further reading up on Scottish Power, and their plans are to use the money from the sale to invest in Tidal,Solar and Wind. Tidal is producing a lot of energy, particularly in the North of Scotland, but requires big investment for commercial production. In the interim they will buy from the facilities they have sold (obviously contracted in the sell out deal).
Regarding battery storage, all the BEVs whose batteries wear out, will provide masses of future grid storage. Renault are already big into that. And as all EV decriers keep telling us, the batteries only last a couple of years, in cars!

comment from a recent study on renewables...

The SNP like to proclaim their energy independence, and point to the jobs created and income generated for the country. In reality, these are hollow claims.

Very few permanent jobs result from wind power, and most of the money goes to rich landowners and the banks and (mostly foreign owned) who finance and operate the wind farms.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on October 20, 2018, 05:57:05 PM
Scottish power has already sold off all its conventional power generation capability
They have even sold off their hydro schemes.

“Sold off” does not mean these facilities have been decommissioned. This sounds like just an accounting artifice to move these expensive facilities off Scottish Power’s balance sheet (and grab some PR headlines): the generating plants still exist and SP will buy the power from Drax when they need it. So John Ratsey’s point is still valid.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 20, 2018, 06:50:54 PM
]The SNP like to proclaim their energy independence, and point to the jobs created and income generated for the country. In reality, these are hollow claims.

Very few permanent jobs result from wind power, and most of the money goes to rich landowners and the banks and (mostly foreign owned) who finance and operate the wind farms.[/i]
Where did the SNP come into it. Scottish Power is Spanish owned.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 20, 2018, 07:37:27 PM
]The SNP like to proclaim their energy independence, and point to the jobs created and income generated for the country. In reality, these are hollow claims.

Very few permanent jobs result from wind power, and most of the money goes to rich landowners and the banks and (mostly foreign owned) who finance and operate the wind farms.[/i]
Where did the SNP come into it. Scottish Power is Spanish owned.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-15578344

Been SNP policy for many years now to go fully renewable, energy companies are driven by government policy.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kenneve on October 20, 2018, 07:54:15 PM
Have just checked the Gridwatch website at 19.50 hrs. Total UK demand was 33.76Gw of which only 10.9% was wind power. It seems we have long way to go??
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 20, 2018, 08:32:38 PM
Have just checked the Gridwatch website at 19.50 hrs. Total UK demand was 33.76Gw of which only 10.9% was wind power. It seems we have long way to go??

https://stopthesethings.com/2018/09/13/german-wind-power-fails-again-coal-fired-power-prevents-return-to-dark-ages/

https://www.tdworld.com/generation-and-renewables/myth-german-renewable-energy-miracle

Germany has had long experience of renewables and I have seen articles from there that say as long as renewables are a small part of the system they are OK, the problems start when your renewables become a significant part of the power supply, every renewable source needs 100% backup from conventional nuclear or gas. On some very cold but wind less winter days last in UK last year wind was only a few % of total, with coal, nuclear and gas working flat out to supply over 40GW of power ( and importing power as well ).  We also nearly ran out of gas last winter, why we have to use gas for generating electrical power I do not know (except that gas fired stations are cheap to build and quick to come on line), when gas can be used in heating boilers at over 90% efficiency we are using gas to generate electricity to heat homes at a much lower efficiency ).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on October 25, 2018, 10:21:47 AM
General consensus that Tesla may have turned a corner.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45971786

Not so sure myself. Electric propulsion is definitely the future. Plug-in charging is the bit I am very sceptical about. But it seems Tesla may have reached a tipping point for now.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 25, 2018, 10:28:25 AM
General consensus that Tesla may have turned a corner.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45971786

Not so sure myself. Electric propulsion is definitely the future. Plug-in charging is the bit I am very sceptical about. But it seems Tesla may have reached a tipping point for now.

I would not trust Musk as far as I could throw him with one arm tied behind my back !  this may be just another one of his ploys to try and give Tsla some credibility,  maybe borrowed the money off his mate or from Saudi and put it on the black side of the balance sheet to cock a snoot at market regulators and stop the freefall in share price.  Would not be the first time he has tried to meddle with share prices.

The reaction from many analysts is that 'one swallow does not make a summer' and headwinds are coming - the companies first profitable quarter since 2013 may be just a spike due to number of high spec model 3 and other high end models,  the real crunch will be if the cheaper more affordable model 3 variants ( that Tesla has not sold too many of up to now) are profitable or are made at a loss.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/25/heres-what-wall-street-analysts-had-to-say-about-tesla-earnings.html
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on October 25, 2018, 11:57:59 PM
Some interesting comment in the financial world, but the no.5 selling car by volume and no.1 by revenue is not to be sniffed at.

https://electrek.co/2018/10/24/tesla-model-3-best-selling-revenue-gross-margin/?fbclid=IwAR2iWQzw59IJeECniM3IX9brpFCjqYHYf8FYGu-yz5mTyZKj-wIvk-5pCKI

Note the comment at the end, "Exciting times…unless you are a short."
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: MartinJG on October 26, 2018, 12:08:41 AM
Saw this the other day.


Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 26, 2018, 09:33:13 AM
Saw this the other day.

Since cars have been made it has been standard procedure for rival car makers to buy and strip models and see how they are put together ( the car industry is like a goldfish bowl where everyone knows what everyone else is doing and how they are doing it,  and staff move between companies as well ).  This is how Ford knew that Austin were making every Mini at a loss (and they were). Funny that they say suspension is too big and heavy because Tesla are infamous for wheels breaking away and ripping the suspension arms with them.  Maybe it is the extra weight of the battery ?  The other car makers know that these are high end models,  which should have a bigger profit margin than lower end mass produced models.  Tesla has so far ( until last quarter ) failed to make a profit, the profit last quarter was from selling model S and very high spec model 3 cars,  which sell for a premium - when they start making more base model 3 cars (nearer $30k  than $60k) their profit margin will drop.  Car makers know from the number of employees, the way the cars are made and how many parts are in the car how much it cost to make, what they are saying is the body is way too complicated,  too many welds and parts compared to mainstream car makers.  If the body is too rigid (not enough crumple zones) then in the event of a crash the occupants take the force instead of the crumple zones.   Car makers work to pence on each component,  and expect suppliers to DROP their prices year on year and the equipment used to make the parts gets paid for and the company gets better at making parts), All they are saying is that the tech is OK but the labour intensive parts of the car are costing Tesla too much to be competitive at the lower prices they are aiming to sell cars at,  and I believe the US electric car rebate will disappear soon.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 26, 2018, 09:46:06 AM
Some interesting comment in the financial world, but the no.5 selling car by volume and no.1 by revenue is not to be sniffed at.

https://electrek.co/2018/10/24/tesla-model-3-best-selling-revenue-gross-margin/?fbclid=IwAR2iWQzw59IJeECniM3IX9brpFCjqYHYf8FYGu-yz5mTyZKj-wIvk-5pCKI

Note the comment at the end, "Exciting times…unless you are a short."

In the years of its existence Tesla only made a profit last quarter ( that could either be a Musk trick or a blip from selling high end model 3's rather than lower spec cheaper models ).  If you look at the cash they have burnt to get there ( about a £billion a quarter ) then profit may be the wrong word to use over the longer term,  because all those losses have to be paid out before you are truly making a profit.   Anyone can make cars at a loss, the art is to produce cars as cheaply as possible and sell them for as much as the market will stand.  Tesla have had a honeymoon period where the cars had novelty value and they had little competition, now the competitors are many and offering better made products.   Model 3 was supposed to be their saviour as a cheaper model with larger sales potential,  but if they cost nearly as much as a model S to make and sell for $20k to $30K less ' whoops !!  :o  Tesla car sales in its only profitable quarter to date averaged $69,000 per vehicle,  a far cry from the $35,000 model 3 they promised,  looks to me like they are supplying the high end model 3 cars they have reservations and deposits for in preference to supplying any lower spec cars they have deposits for,  skewing their cash flow in the right direction while maybe letting down customers who ordered cheaper models.

https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/tesla-like-blackberry-iphone-came-analyst-201604393.html?guccounter=1

The company still has debts of nearly £10 Billion to pay off before they can truly declare a profit.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/r-tesla-may-post-profit-with-model-3-surge-but-is-it-repeatable-2018-10
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on October 26, 2018, 09:51:03 AM
Saw this the other day.
Intriguing. Some people in my industry (IT and business design) hail Musk as some sort of faultless design guru. Thing is, he is a great visionary, but he is not faultless. His cave rescue submarine was a barmy idea for example and a good pointer at his attention seeking personality.

There are a lot of groundbreaking ideas, design features and manufacturing innovations in the Teslas, particularly the Model 3. But I believe if he swallowed his pride and went to Toyota, partnered up and let them review his design for true mass production, they could build that thing for around half the price at twice the volume, which I think is th point of this video.

Musk and others made their fortune with great ideas, building billion pound businesses and selling them on. I think now they are on the cusp of profitability, it may be a good time for Tesla to sell to or partner with an established manufacturer.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 26, 2018, 10:34:37 AM
Saw this the other day.
Intriguing. Some people in my industry (IT and business design) hail Musk as some sort of faultless design guru. Thing is, he is a great visionary, but he is not faultless. His cave rescue submarine was a barmy idea for example and a good pointer at his attention seeking personality.

There are a lot of groundbreaking ideas, design features and manufacturing innovations in the Teslas, particularly the Model 3. But I believe if he swallowed his pride and went to Toyota, partnered up and let them review his design for true mass production, they could build that thing for around half the price at twice the volume, which I think is th point of this video.

Musk and others made their fortune with great ideas, building billion pound businesses and selling them on. I think now they are on the cusp of profitability, it may be a good time for Tesla to sell to or partner with an established manufacturer.

Problem is an idea like PayPal can be set up and scaled up to massive profits by small offices with very few staff, but to build cars you need lots of people, and a lot of production space - and factory space and staff salaries are the biggest cost to a business.  Of all the 'autonomous' car companies set up out of silicon valley that were going to 'kick Detroits a55' ( I think 11 to begin with ) there are just a few left - this is what happens when silicon valley meets the real world and things cannot be done by software alone.  Tesla has also managed so far to keep its second hand cars within its control and artificially kept prices up,  if second hand prices fall it starts to put pressure on new car prices, how long can they keep all the cars they have made within their control ?   https://evannex.com/blogs/news/tesla-s-used-car-business-is-growing

here is an interesting lesson from history for Musk  https://www.wired.co.uk/article/british-hyperloop-hovertrain-maglev-trains
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: MartinJG on October 28, 2018, 11:23:31 AM
I find it more than surprising that Teflon did not implement conventional assembly techniques where applicable. They must have employed experienced designers and engineers from the outset in order to combine the new with the old. That said, I suspect the battery and motor R&D and implementation are the areas which have created the greatest number of headaches in terms of weight, size and technical nouse.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 28, 2018, 12:15:31 PM

I find it more than surprising that Teflon did not implement conventional assembly techniques where applicable. They must have employed experienced designers and engineers from the outset in order to combine the new with the old. That said, I suspect the battery and motor R&D and implementation are the areas which have created the greatest number of headaches in terms of weight, size and technical nouse.

Elton Musk does not understand car making and has ( because of his massive ego ) overridden the engineers who do know how it should be done. Seems he has his own ideas about making cars and uses movement of molecules as his model.  https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-geekiest-explanation-2014-8?IR=T  also this https://www.inc.com/erik-sherman/elon-musk-is-killing-tesla-heres-why-he-should-be-fired.html

Toyota plant in San Antonio does it right https://seekingalpha.com/article/4002252-toyota-shows-tesla-run-car-factory-texas

They have JIT ( just in time ) deliveries of parts from satellite supplier factories around the main plant, this cuts transport time and costs and minimises inventory, also means if a problem with parts is found you do not have thousands of suspect parts sitting in a warehouse that need sorting / inspecting.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: MartinJG on October 28, 2018, 12:23:02 PM
Something I find interesting is the fact that electric cars do not currently use a ratio gearbox. Direct drive only. I know the reasoning behind this but given the high torque characteristics of an electic motor from standstill which I believe reduces with increased revs (unlike a combustion engine for instance), it seems logical to use a CVT transmission. I know this would mean additional weight and potential friction, but given the performance nature of a motor, surely this would optimise performance and reduce the drain on the battery and therefore increase the range between charges which is currently a problem. Can't help feeling Elton Munch is missing a trick here.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 28, 2018, 12:44:00 PM
Electric motors work on a magnetic rotor ( capable of rotating)  following a rotating magnetic field generated by a wound copper coils in a stator ( stationary ). Most electric  cars use the squirrel cage  motor used for so long as a power source in industry, it has a rotor that needs no electrical contacts as it is a laminated iron with a solid ' cage ' of aluminium conductors - it is an induction motor, so called because the rotating field from the stator ' induces ' currents in the 'cage) and magnetized the rotor without and electrical supply to the rotor.  This lack of moving electrical contacts ( sliprings or brushes ) means motors are very trouble free and reliable.  The problem with induction motors is they develop maximum torque when they are not rotating, as the rotor catches up with the rotating field the amount of 'slippage ' decreases and the torque drops, if the rotor speed ever caught up with the rotating field the torque would drop to zero.  With modern electronics the frequency of the rotating field can be changed to the optimum for every situation ( over a range of RPM depending on motor design limitations ), think of this as ' electrical / electronic CVT ' if you like - no need for a heavy gearbox that would absorb power in the drive train.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: MartinJG on October 28, 2018, 01:27:44 PM

I'm OK with this bit.

Electric motors work on a magnetic rotor ( capable of rotating)  following a rotating magnetic field generated by a wound copper coils in a stator ( stationary ). Most electric  cars use the squirrel cage  motor used for so long as a power source in industry, it has a rotor that needs no electrical contacts as it is a laminated iron with a solid ' cage ' of aluminium conductors - it is an induction motor, so called because the rotating field from the stator ' induces ' currents in the 'cage) and magnetized the rotor without and electrical supply to the rotor.  This lack of moving electrical contacts ( sliprings or brushes ) means motors are very trouble free and reliable.

This is where it gets interesting.

The problem with induction motors is they develop maximum torque when they are not rotating, as the rotor catches up with the rotating field the amount of 'slippage ' decreases and the torque drops, if the rotor speed ever caught up with the rotating field the torque would drop to zero.  With modern electronics the frequency of the rotating field can be changed to the optimum for every situation, think of this as ' electrical / electronic CVT ' if you like - no need for a heavy gearbox that would absorb power in the drive train.

This explains the fall off in performance of an electric versus combustion at higher MPH which was the reason for my thinking along the lines of compensating performance with the use of a CVT. Fair enough. I'll shelve that idea then.

That's my thought for the day.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on October 28, 2018, 05:18:27 PM
Tesla Model 3 doesn’t use an induction motor. It uses an advanced reluctance machine design.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 28, 2018, 05:44:06 PM
Tesla Model 3 doesn’t use an induction motor. It uses an advanced reluctance machine design.

Basically the same rotor as an squirrel cage induction motor inasmuch as it does not use permanent magnets ( which are expensive ) but the stator induces magnetism in the rotor just the same. Switched reluctance motors use salient poles on the rotor ( stick out like gear teeth ) and it works like a stepper motor, which does not rely on slippage to develop torque but pulls the rotor around in a series of definite steps. All the clever stuff is in the electronics which supply the square wave pulses, electronics is cheap and lightweight compared to permanent magnets. I would like to know if this motor is capable of acting as a generator as well though, as this kind of motor normally not suitable for regenerative purposes like a wound rotor or permanent magnet motor.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switched_reluctance_motor
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on October 28, 2018, 08:38:37 PM
From what I have read, it does regenerate power from braking in the Tesla design but not right down to zero mph like the other Tesla motors.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 28, 2018, 09:03:21 PM
All the carmakers are  avoiding using rare earth permanent magnets because the Chinese have control of the raw materials and they are rare and expensive.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on October 28, 2018, 10:00:10 PM
Most of what I have been reading is drawn together here..

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/03/11/tesla-model-3-motor-in-depth/

Small amounts of rare earth are used to smooth out the performance of the new motor design.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 29, 2018, 08:33:34 AM
Most of what I have been reading is drawn together here..

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/03/11/tesla-model-3-motor-in-depth/

Small amounts of rare earth are used to smooth out the performance of the new motor design.

Good article, the problem with switched reluctance motors has always been 'torque ripple' or cogging,  where the output especially at lower speeds is 'lumpy' as the rotor gets tugged around from one magnetic field to the next. The small permanent magnets in the stator seem to cure that, other motor designs used permanent magnets in the rotor,  which left them open to becoming loose or even breaking up as the rotor spun.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on October 29, 2018, 11:56:38 AM
The small permanent magnets in the stator seem to cure that, other motor designs used permanent magnets in the rotor,  which left them open to becoming loose or even breaking up as the rotor spun.

I think this design was only possible with the rare earth magnets and also with the modern regulating electronics.

I think Musk is a great innovator, but he really needs strong engineers and production designers around him to modify his 'reality distortion field', in the same way wthat Steve Jobs had Steve Wozniak to moderate him.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 14, 2018, 02:18:49 PM
Oops,  another Tesla fire, the list of spontaneously combusting Tesla cars mounts .. was it the collapsing of the suspension that triggered the problem (maybe the weak suspension was the reason why the Tesla was written off and put in the junkyard,  or had the owner parked it there because they couldn't find a charger ? )

https://electrek.co/2018/09/10/tesla-vehicle-fire-junkyard/
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 15, 2018, 09:07:54 AM
All is not what it seems in the murky world of BEV. Latest bombshell is that on Nissan Leaf fast charge can only be used a certain number of times in a journey - then the car says 'no' and switches over to slow charge ( hint - fast charging damages the battery a bit every time you use it).  It is a bit like having an ICE car that slows down the fuel filling to a snails pace after the first fill up of the day and your have to spend an hour or two at the service station pump trickling fuel in.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44575399

Another problem, ( extract from article in link)

"But Mr Pitcairn was also disappointed by the range of the new Leaf, which he bought specifically for long journeys.

His marketing brochure claimed the car could do 235 miles on a single charge.

But having bought the car, he found the range was actually 155 miles.
"
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on November 15, 2018, 12:08:19 PM
And while it's in slow charge mode it's hogging one of the charging points.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jeangenie on November 16, 2018, 06:05:34 PM
Just found this thread. Haven’t read it all but had a trawl through the recent stuff. Quite interesting reading.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 16, 2018, 09:38:55 PM
Some good stuff on YouTube Jeangenie. A guy whose channel is called EV Opinion is worth a look in. He has lived with a 24 kwh Nissan Leaf for 3 years. Another channel is "James and Kate" - check some of their earlier stuff including a journey from Leicestershire to Orkney in late 2015.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on November 17, 2018, 09:24:20 AM
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/volkswagen-greenlights-sub-£18000-electric-people’s-car (https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/volkswagen-greenlights-sub-£18000-electric-people’s-car)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 25, 2018, 10:52:39 AM
More on the expected Honda EV

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/honda/100575/first-honda-urban-ev-production-car-spy-shots-emerge

Looks like first / second generation Honda Civic..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Honda_Civic
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on January 21, 2019, 02:48:50 PM
About 18 months ago I was seriously considering buying an EV - almost certainly a Nissan Leaf - but the range issues were what put me off. I had had a handful of journeys - about 3 or 4 - in 2017 which would have been difficult in an EV. At the time the slightly higher range Nissan Leaf with a 30 kwh battery pack was out of my range.

I had a bit of a debate with a few people on SpeakEV in which I argued that it would only be a year or so before the 30 kwh Leaf became much more affordable. Several posters disagreed with me saying that demand was outstripping supply and that prices would at best stabilise and possibly even increase.

Hadn't looked at the market for some time but last week I did. A big franchise in the North West is Chorley Group. A year ago they had a steady supply - at any one time - of about 30 Leafs. This is now down to less than 10 and often lower than that. Not only that but prices have firmed up. So much so that a pal of mine has just sold his 24 kwh Nissan Leaf - which he has had for 2 years - for only £500 less than he paid for it and he has put 20,000 miles on the clock. Similar stories are common. Our local Nissan dealer tells me that they have a waiting list for second hand Leafs and that he hasn't had one is stock for 3 months.

I think the old heavy depreciation thing, which was certainly true, is now a thing of the past. Probably explains why Nissan are talking about £40,000 for their next generation Leaf with a 60 kwh battery and a plus 200 mile range. They can charge what they like. I guess EV's will be a niche product for a few years yet.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 21, 2019, 03:00:24 PM
Found this video on the new 60 kwh battery pack a little disturbing. Wonder if Nissan has learnt anything from "Chargegate"?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on January 26, 2019, 03:29:15 PM
Saw this on TV today.  -- A man well ahead of his time.
"The "Witkar", or white car, was the world's first electric car-sharing scheme.

It was the brainchild of Dutch visionary, Luud Schimmelpennink, who came up with the innovative idea to tackle pollution on the streets of his native Amsterdam.

The first "Witkar" took to the roads in 1974, but it was way ahead of its time. "

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/stories-46277058/witkar-the-world-s-first-electric-car-sharing-scheme

When I looked it up on the internet I also found this. A scheme due to be introduced in London.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/new-bluecity-electric-car-sharing-scheme-launch-february

Does anybody know anything about this or has it been abandoned?

Seems like a great idea to me or are we too attached to the idea of owning our own piece of shiny/rusting metal?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 26, 2019, 07:02:01 PM
The scheme they had in Paris wasn't success.

https://www.thelocal.fr/20180623/paris-autolib-slams-brakes-on-electric-car-sharing-scheme (https://www.thelocal.fr/20180623/paris-autolib-slams-brakes-on-electric-car-sharing-scheme)

Yesterday I was at a Fife Council office complex and was cheered to see the facilities for EV charging. The staff car park had a huge area for EV charging, which was not too surprising as they have a fleet of Leaf cars and e-NV200 vans. The visitors car park was the surprise though. It had a large area for visitors charging their EVs, the biggest I've seen anywhere.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on January 27, 2019, 12:17:17 PM
Scotland ahead of the game here. Big area for charging EVs in central Dundee which locals say means that if you live in or near the city centre and don't have off road parking, an EV is still a viable proposition.


More generally though, and further to my post above, the charging situation isn't getting better fast enough. You get areas stuffed with rapid chargers - in Warrington, at the Gemini Retail Park there are 2 at M&S and 4 at IKEA next door. There's another one at a Nissan dealership and several slower chargers at leisure centres and the like.


So all well and good if you live in or near a big town or city but I went on to zap-map and the huge charge point desert that is the Peak district is still a chargepoint dessert. Same with huge areas of Wales and I gather Lincolnshire is pretty poor as well.


What people are latching on to though is that a short range EV makes an excellent second car.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on January 27, 2019, 09:46:48 PM
What people are latching on to though is that a short range EV makes an excellent second car.
Which, I assume, is the market the Honda Urban EV https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=10817.0 (https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=10817.0) will be aiming for.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on January 28, 2019, 11:32:26 AM
What people are latching on to though is that a short range EV makes an excellent second car.
Which, I assume, is the market the Honda Urban EV https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=10817.0 (https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=10817.0) will be aiming for.

I would guess that most second cars will not be purchased new though, a second car will most likely be second hand, and I guess not many people will buy a short range BEV brand new,  so selling short range cars from new to get them into used car market may be the problem.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 28, 2019, 11:51:55 AM
I would guess that most second cars will not be purchased new though, a second car will most likely be second hand, and I guess not many people will buy a short range BEV brand new,  so selling short range cars from new to get them into used car market may be the problem.
I have to agree with this. People buying a second car, and opting for a brand new EV, are well up the rich list!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on January 28, 2019, 12:06:50 PM
I would guess that most second cars will not be purchased new though, a second car will most likely be second hand, and I guess not many people will buy a short range BEV brand new,  so selling short range cars from new to get them into used car market may be the problem.
I have to agree with this. People buying a second car, and opting for a brand new EV, are well up the rich list!

Good points. I think the relative buoyancy of the market for used Nissan Leaf's proves this. A sharp belt of initial depreciation has been followed by a period of almost zero depreciation for second hand cars. The demand for EVs is there but not at current NEW prices.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on January 29, 2019, 09:56:59 AM
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/105755/evs-could-be-the-same-price-as-petrol-and-diesel-cars-in-two-years-time
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 31, 2019, 07:07:11 AM
Tesla has posted its second quarter in profit, albeit at a reduced profit. That should improve now that sales of the Model 3 in the EU and China are about to commence.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47062146 (https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47062146)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 15, 2019, 08:38:24 AM
All electric and hybrid electric pickups could go a long way to aiding EV uptake in the US. GM, in particular, are keen on the idea. Rivian is an ideal way of outsourcing some of their research.
https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-rivian-electric-amazon-com-gm-exclusi/amazon-gm-in-talks-to-invest-in-electric-pickup-truck-maker-rivian-sources-idUKKCN1Q12PV (https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-rivian-electric-amazon-com-gm-exclusi/amazon-gm-in-talks-to-invest-in-electric-pickup-truck-maker-rivian-sources-idUKKCN1Q12PV)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 19, 2019, 09:20:16 AM
Honda's statement of 19th February 2019.

Honda has today announced it will restructure its global manufacturing network. This restructure comes as Honda accelerates its commitment to electrified cars, in response to the unprecedented changes in the global automotive industry. The significant challenges of electrification will see Honda revise its global manufacturing operations, and focus activity in regions where it expects to have high production volumes.

As a result, Honda of the UK Manufacturing Ltd. has today informed employees of its proposal to close its Swindon vehicle manufacturing plant in the UK in 2021, at the end of the current model’s production lifecycle. The plant currently produces 150,000 cars per year, and employs approximately 3,500 people. Consultation activity will begin today with potentially affected employees.

The global restructure will also involve Honda’s automobile operations in Turkey. Honda Turkiye A.S. currently produces 38,000 units per year. The company will cease manufacturing current Civic sedan model in 2021 and intends to continue its business operations. Honda Turkiye A.S. will continue to hold constructive dialogue with Turkish stakeholders during this period.

Katsushi Inoue, Chief Officer for European Regional Operations, Honda Motor Co., Ltd., and President, Honda Motor Europe said; “In light of the unprecedented changes that are affecting our industry, it is vital that we accelerate our electrification strategy and restructure our global operations accordingly. As a result, we have had to take this difficult decision to consult our workforce on how we might prepare our manufacturing network for the future. This has not been taken lightly and we deeply regret how unsettling today’s announcement will be for our people.”
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 01, 2019, 08:17:37 AM
Tesla are dropping the spec and the price of their Model 3 to a price, in the US, of £26,400. They will only be sold online by special order, the same as the Audi e tron. Wonder where Honda's EV will fit with that price point?

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47410636 (https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47410636)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 04, 2019, 03:04:46 PM
Seat el-Born, due for the market in 2020 and built on the Volkswagen MEB platform. Looks good.

(https://car-images.bauersecure.com/pagefiles/86643/1040x585/seat_elborn_050.jpg)
(https://car-images.bauersecure.com/pagefiles/86643/1040x0/seat_elborn_055.jpg?scale=down)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on March 04, 2019, 07:50:28 PM
If you told me that was a Mark 4 Jazz I would have believed you.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 04, 2019, 08:15:30 PM
If you told me that was a Mark 4 Jazz I would have believed you.
I agree. I was thrown by the Model 3 front treatment.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on March 04, 2019, 08:44:44 PM
If you told me that was a Mark 4 Jazz I would have believed you.

Looks a bit more like a Fiesta to me
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 04, 2019, 08:50:03 PM
You put the numbers into the computer and they tend to come up with the same result. Minor trim touches are what makes the difference.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 05, 2019, 07:01:13 AM
The worlds most powerful road legal production car has been announced at the Geneva Motor Show. The electric Pininfarina Battista produces the equivalent of 1900 bhp (around 1500 KW I would imagine), and does 0-62mph in less than two seconds, 186mph in less than 12 seconds, has a top speed of more than 250mph, and does 280 miles on one charge.
Wonder how long before some superstar wraps one round a city centre lamp post? Or how long it takes some journo to point out that you don't get 280 miles while trying out its performance??

(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/133E3/production/_105891887_automobili_pininfarina_battista_gims_2019-01155.jpg)

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47418405 (https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47418405)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on March 05, 2019, 09:20:12 AM
What a perfect alternative to HS2. Put it on rails, add a pantergraph and Bob's your uncle!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 05, 2019, 09:24:34 AM
They could give us all one and it would still work out cheaper!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on March 05, 2019, 09:27:24 AM
I have been saying this for years Jocko. Obviously it is sarcasm. But it would be cheaper to build a dedicated hypercar lane down the M1 and supply a fleet of self driving Bugatti Veyrons and these things, for the nutters who absolutely have to get to London 20 minutes earlier than the rest of us.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on March 05, 2019, 09:31:02 AM
The worlds most powerful road legal production car has been announced at the Geneva Motor Show. The electric Pininfarina Battista produces the equivalent of 1900 bhp (around 1500 KW I would imagine), and does 0-62mph in less than two seconds, 186mph in less than 12 seconds, has a top speed of more than 250mph, and does 280 miles on one charge.
Wonder how long before some superstar wraps one round a city centre lamp post? Or how long it takes some journo to point out that you don't get 280 miles while trying out its performance??


Wonder if they drive these at 50mph in the test to come up with a 280 mile range ?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on March 05, 2019, 09:50:17 AM
Saw a YouTube video a year or so back by an EV enthusiast and he reckoned that two thirds of the claimed range was a good working figure. So a 30 kwh Nissan Leaf claims 155 but 105 is a good working figure for what you'll get in real life. My mate who has a 24 kwh Nissan Leaf disputes this but then he does drive at 55 mph on the motorway and wears arctic gear in the winter rather than use the heater!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on March 05, 2019, 10:11:53 AM
Saw a YouTube video a year or so back by an EV enthusiast and he reckoned that two thirds of the claimed range was a good working figure. So a 30 kwh Nissan Leaf claims 155 but 105 is a good working figure for what you'll get in real life. My mate who has a 24 kwh Nissan Leaf disputes this but then he does drive at 55 mph on the motorway and wears arctic gear in the winter rather than use the heater!

That fits in with the guy who waited to buy the new 2018 Leaf because of its promised 235mile range but he never got more than 150 miles to a charge,  and to add insult to injury he found that you could only use rapid charge once a day ( ? the car itself decided that it would not accept rapid charge and reduced charge rate,  apparently this is to protect the battery ) so rather than the promised 60 minute or so wait at charger he was there for 3 hours mid-journey - It was all over the newspapers - last I heard he was suing Nissan...

I would be miffed if I stopped on the motorway to fill my car up and found that the car had decided I could only put petrol in through a 0.5mm diameter hole 'to protect the fuel tank' LOL
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 05, 2019, 10:27:27 AM
Wonder if they drive these at 50mph in the test to come up with a 280 mile range ?
I would imaging it would be the Worldwide harmonised light-duty vehicle test procedure, same as all the rest.

http://wltpfacts.eu/what-is-wltp-how-will-it-work/ (http://wltpfacts.eu/what-is-wltp-how-will-it-work/)

Watching a video on the Jaguar I-PACE and it conditions the cabin temperature and heated seats for you, while it is drawing power from the mains, so you at least start out with a warm car. What you do after that is your choice.

Nissan shot themselves in the feet (both of them) with the Chargegate fiasco.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on March 05, 2019, 11:26:20 AM
Some real life ranges for BEV, Tesla come out pretty badly.

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-6337871/New-test-reveals-far-electric-cars-REALLY-travel-charge.html

What will replace fuel and VAT revenue loss, one suggestion is 3000 miles a year free and then you get charged, mileage monitored by an onboard gizmo, there will soon be places spring up to 'reset your gizmo' for a small fee ....

( a bit like the 'mileage correction' services you can get for vehicles now )

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-6319671/The-Government-turn-road-pricing-replace-28bn-lost-fuel-duty-revenue.html
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 05, 2019, 03:26:06 PM
NEDC was always grossly over optimistic and Tesla S 75D was old technology with the small battery and dual motors. In fact it is no longer offered new. The latest, new tech vehicles, offer much better  range. Miles/kWh is a better indication of efficiency, which shows how rubbish the S 75D is.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on March 05, 2019, 03:35:27 PM
NEDC was always grossly over optimistic and Tesla S 75D was old technology with the small battery and dual motors. In fact it is no longer offered new. The latest, new tech vehicles, offer much better  range. Miles/kWh is a better indication of efficiency, which shows how rubbish the S 75D is.

BEV ranges are still short compared to ICE vehicles,  so the fact that owners are reporting on average only getting 70% or less of claimed range is a big deal. I know the figures on ICE vehicles are a bit suspect for some makes but most manage to get around 85 / 90% of claimed MPG.  The other big deal is battery management,  the reason Nissan will not allow fast charges may be down to battery temperature - but as we know installing battery cooling will add size, weight and cost to already expensive vehicles....
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 05, 2019, 05:07:18 PM
Almost all BEVs have battery temperature management and can both heat and cool the battery as required. Compared with battery weight the cooling system is minimal. Nissan went the cheap route, though The new 60kWh Leaf has overcome the charging issue though it still does not have a liquid cooled battery yet. I believe the battery type will change sometime soon and the new one will be controlled.
The majority of private BEV owners only ever have to charge their cars at home so range is not an issue, but the range will have to increase dramatically before fleet owners start to change willingly.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on March 06, 2019, 08:18:21 AM
Almost all BEVs have battery temperature management and can both heat and cool the battery as required. Compared with battery weight the cooling system is minimal. Nissan went the cheap route, though The new 60kWh Leaf has overcome the charging issue though it still does not have a liquid cooled battery yet. I believe the battery type will change sometime soon and the new one will be controlled.
The majority of private BEV owners only ever have to charge their cars at home so range is not an issue, but the range will have to increase dramatically before fleet owners start to change willingly.

There is no mystery to me why BEV are not taking off - the tech still being developed to an everyday usable state.  Who in their right mind is going to splash out loadsa money on a vehicle only to find in six months it has been superseded by something that is more sorted and in all probability cheaper, while the value of your existing one just dropped like a lead balloon.  Long live the early adopters who are willing to suffer just because they want to be 'first'.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 06, 2019, 09:33:51 AM
My next car, when the Jazz goes to scrapyard heaven, will definitely be electric. For my use patterns and electric vehicle ticks all the boxes, and I feel that the technology is far enough advanced for my needs. Second hand prices for a 2011 Leaf start around £6K, not much dearer than a Jazz around that year.
The furthest I have ever driven "down South", in over 50 years driving, is a couple of days stay in York. 230 miles. If I had to do that, or longer, again, I would just hire a wee car for a couple of days.
Mind you, the way I am going my next BEV could be one of these!

(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0016/1546/2502/products/Elite_20Traveller_204_201__18706.1484672039_1024x1024.jpg?v=1538067015)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on March 06, 2019, 09:46:19 AM
I would still like to know how the roadside services like AA, RAC etc. deal with BEV with flat battery.  Do they have to tow it to nearest suitable charge point, hook up a mobile generator ?  With petrol or diesel they can carry jerrycan of fuel and get it going without moving it. Maybe they will invest in battery wagons capable of adding enough charge to get vehicle to a charger, or BEV car drivers will carry a long extension lead and knock on peoples doors asking if they can plug it in.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 06, 2019, 10:04:22 AM
Found this from 2014.
https://leasing.com/car-leasing-news/rac-to-charge-to-the-rescue-of-stranded-ev-drivers/ (https://leasing.com/car-leasing-news/rac-to-charge-to-the-rescue-of-stranded-ev-drivers/)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on March 06, 2019, 11:27:42 AM
So an ICE powered van, with ICE powered generator ( or was that a 'universal voltage battery / inverter setup) comes to rescue of  stranded BEV,  priceless.

I would expect an electric van to turn up and erect a solar panel or wind turbine or if close to a local stream a water turbine to charge up the battery.  BEV drivers could always carry a can of electrons in the boot, or maybe a spare battery to give them some extra range.  Normally if an ICE car runs out of fuel through a total numpty driving it, the normal remedy is to cadge a lift to a local service station, buy a plastic can and top fuel tank up and drive to local station to fill up properly,  ( unless it is a Diesel, do you still need to get the AA to come and refill the system if you run out of fuel ? )

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/08/electric-cars-wont-get-us-very-far-because-they-cant/
few years old but still relevant.

Truth is that if government took their big chunk of tax off the cost of petrol it would hardly make economic sense to own a BEV, they are normally double the cost to buy of an ICE car, and without subsidy hardly any would have been sold.

The green bit does not even ring true any more,  particularly now we know that wind farms and solar need pretty much 100% backup capacity from other .'non-green'  ( conventional) forms of generation if we are to maintain a reliable electricity supply).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on March 06, 2019, 01:14:28 PM
Well, if we followed your line of logic and applied it retrospectively, we would still be transporting things and ourselves using the horse and cart,  ;D.

I think in general we need to push ourselves along a little bit with a challenge. You used the Kennedy speech about going to the moon recently to inspire us to face up to the hard challenges.

Getting electric propulsion and storage technology efficient and effective for personal transportation will take a long time and will probably only be solved when other things come into play too, such as improved public transport, a shift in the ownership model and societal changes in travel needs.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on March 06, 2019, 01:27:07 PM
Found this from 2014.
https://leasing.com/car-leasing-news/rac-to-charge-to-the-rescue-of-stranded-ev-drivers/ (https://leasing.com/car-leasing-news/rac-to-charge-to-the-rescue-of-stranded-ev-drivers/)

I think that service was soon discontinued.

AutoAid recover you to the nearest suitable charging point, I would think most recovery operators would do the same.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest4871 on March 06, 2019, 02:42:43 PM
Well, if we followed your line of logic and applied it retrospectively, we would still be transporting things and ourselves using the horse and cart,  ;D.

There is some case for the horse and cart. Environmentally friendly and about the same speeds as today. Faster sometimes.

Don't be completely taken in by the environmental benefits of EV. The energy (pollution) has to be produced somewhere just not in the cars. EV is a wonderful way for car manufacturers to meet their environmental targets by shifting the problem elsewhere. And don't forget the environmental consequences of batteries.

This all seems to be a case of robbing Peter to pay Paul.

I do hope EV does not follow the same route as governments enthusiasm for diesel and the disaster that is and obviously was going to be.

Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of time for EV but they are not the universal panacea they might be made out to be.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 06, 2019, 03:49:40 PM
All else considered, here in the UK it is more environmentally friendly to produce electricity in bulk, transport it over the grid, then charge your EV, compared to running fossil fuel powered vehicles. CO2 emissions from energy supply has fallen 57% from 1990 to 2017 whereas CO2 from transport has only fallen 1%.

Seems now that all the motoring organisations just tow/trailer you to the nearest operational charge point.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on March 06, 2019, 04:03:22 PM
I'm surprised more effort didn't go into hydrogen fuel cell technology, but I guess the same reluctance to invest in infrastructure exists as it does with EV charging.

It seems sensible to use a fuel source which can be made, in part at least, with excess renewable electricity - as they are doing on a small scale on Eday and Shapinsay up in Orkney.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on March 06, 2019, 04:29:09 PM
All else considered, here in the UK it is more environmentally friendly to produce electricity in bulk, transport it over the grid, then charge your EV, compared to running fossil fuel powered vehicles. CO2 emissions from energy supply has fallen 57% from 1990 to 2017 whereas CO2 from transport has only fallen 1%.

Seems now that all the motoring organisations just tow/trailer you to the nearest operational charge point.

They are using an awful lot of gas to generate power theses days ( as back-up for unreliable renewables )   seems household gas boilers are not green, but gas used to generate power is fine..

We had a lot of new nuclear power stations in the pipeline that as usual got bogged down in planning or got half built and then problems over money. Chinese economy has tanked so I guess Chinese part of the nuclear power station in Somerset is doomed, and the French are unlikely to carry on single handed.  I really miss the times when we could make our own stuff in the UK, even the new Queensferry bridge was mainly made in China and Spain.

Makes more sense to tow BEV than to invest in specialised van and charging equipment.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on March 07, 2019, 07:52:17 AM
There is some case for the horse and cart. Environmentally friendly and about the same speeds as today. Faster sometimes.
I recall reading that the urban streets were filthy when horse-drawn transport was predominant. Horses produce their own form of pollution!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on March 07, 2019, 08:20:31 AM
There is some case for the horse and cart. Environmentally friendly and about the same speeds as today. Faster sometimes.
I recall reading that the urban streets were filthy when horse-drawn transport was predominant. Horses produce their own form of pollution!

Correct, there is nothing environmentally-friendly about large-scale horse-based transport:
https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofBritain/Great-Horse-Manure-Crisis-of-1894/
Invention of the ICE is generally credited with saving us from that apocalypse!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 07, 2019, 08:23:30 AM
When I was a lad we had a horse drawn baker's cart come round. Every time it stopped it would leave a deposit. Our next door neighbour, an avid rose grower, would nip out with a shovel and pail, to collect the manure for his blooms. The reason for the horse drawn cart was the driver had been with the Co-op for about 50 years, couldn't drive, and until he retired (or the horse pegged it) they carried on with the horse drawn deliveries. They then replaced it with an electric mobile shop! As kids we used to hop on the back between stops.

Like this but red.

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/112/285103477_7951e8dc07_z.jpg?zz=1)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 08, 2019, 06:52:04 AM
It was reported on this morning's news that the only bright light in worldwide car sales, is that sales of EVs are rising whereas sales of diesel and petrol powered cars are falling.
It was also reported that Tesla has won more than $520 million in loans from Chinese banks to build its first overseas car plant near Shanghai, the first foreign automaker to wholly own a factory in China.
The Giga factory is set for completion in May (only started building in January!), with cars and batteries being produced before the year end. The factory will build Model 3's for the Chinese market.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on March 08, 2019, 10:15:21 AM
Well, if we followed your line of logic and applied it retrospectively, we would still be transporting things and ourselves using the horse and cart,  ;D.

There is some case for the horse and cart. Environmentally friendly and about the same speeds as today. Faster sometimes.

Don't be completely taken in by the environmental benefits of EV. The energy (pollution) has to be produced somewhere just not in the cars. EV is a wonderful way for car manufacturers to meet their environmental targets by shifting the problem elsewhere. And don't forget the environmental consequences of batteries.

This all seems to be a case of robbing Peter to pay Paul.

I do hope EV does not follow the same route as governments enthusiasm for diesel and the disaster that is and obviously was going to be.

Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of time for EV but they are not the universal panacea they might be made out to be.

A horse and cart environmentally friendly?
Well yes IF the owner fits a poop bag and the disposal system for hi nitrogen waste is efficient AND there is enough land to grow hay on for millions of horses..and enough new stabling....which will all have to be city based.
That will prevent vegans living in cities - unless they walk to work.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest4871 on March 08, 2019, 11:24:48 AM
It just needs a little effort ;)!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on March 08, 2019, 01:40:57 PM
What a bunch of 'neigh' sayers!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest7494 on March 08, 2019, 04:03:54 PM
When a totally electric car will do 450 miles on a charge with the same use all year round and will recharge with the ease with which I refuel with petrol and will cost the same to buy, then I might consider one.

Vic.

 my sentiments precisely, so on that basis, I do not think I will last long enough to become electrified.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 08, 2019, 04:28:15 PM
CEO of Volkswagen was talking from the Geneva Motor Show and he said that anyone satisfied with 500 km range will find it very difficult to choose an ICE over a BEV, by the end of 2020. Running costs will only be a fraction of a conventional car with maintenance costs only a half. He is obviously expecting prices to drop dramatically too.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on March 08, 2019, 04:42:41 PM
CEO of Volkswagen was talking from the Geneva Motor Show and he said that anyone satisfied with 500 km range will find it very difficult to choose an ICE over a BEV, by the end of 2020. Running costs will only be a fraction of a conventional car with maintenance costs only a half. He is obviously expecting prices to drop dramatically too.

Running costs will not be lower for long, there is a big hole left in treasury funds by the lack of fuel duty, watch this space for governments clever ideas for making up the shortfall from its favourite milch cows, the motorists...
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 08, 2019, 05:43:19 PM
Fuel costs will go up but maintenance costs will fall as the work for garages will start to tail off. The way round the fuel costs is solar panels and battery storage, at your house. Could be one of the benefits of global warming!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on March 08, 2019, 05:58:29 PM
Fuel costs will go up but maintenance costs will fall as the work for garages will start to tail off. The way round the fuel costs is solar panels and battery storage, at your house. Could be one of the benefits of global warming!

they do say one of the effects of global warming is more cloud cover  :o
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 08, 2019, 06:45:35 PM
Maybe, maybe not.

https://www.giss.nasa.gov/research/briefs/delgenio_03/ (https://www.giss.nasa.gov/research/briefs/delgenio_03/)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: RichardA on March 12, 2019, 04:04:43 PM
Jag i-Pace voted European Car of the Year.

Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: VicW on March 12, 2019, 04:13:41 PM
How do fully electric cars get power assistance for their brakes?

Vic.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 12, 2019, 04:44:29 PM
"Prior to September 2014, the brake boosters in Tesla vehicles used vacuum, as in many other cars. After that, they switched to an electrical design. Since the cars don’t have combustion engines, ultimately even the vacuum was created as a result of electrical activity, so regardless of which brake booster is used, there is electricity used to decrease the force needed on the brake pedal. The electricity is not needed since the car would stop without it, but it makes it easier to drive. Ultimately, more electricity is generated stopping the car than is used to make it possible to stop the car without as much force on the brake pedal."
They also have regenerative braking so pads can be softer and less assist is required.

Your question has intrigued me though, so I will research the subject for my own edification!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 12, 2019, 04:47:18 PM
Here is an interesting bit on the Nissan Leaf's brakes.

http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/wiki/brakes-abs/ (http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/wiki/brakes-abs/)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on March 12, 2019, 06:12:43 PM
One thing I know about induction motors is that you can stop them dead if you put DC on the stator windings instead after AC ( sine wave or square wave AC) - it is called 'plug braking' and is used for safety to stop machine tools if they need to stop very quickly ( like someones hand or hair is caught in a rotating part ).  Mind you if you tried it on an electric cars the drive shafts would probably snap like carrots..

Just for comparison the Nissan Leaf weighs about 1550kg compared to about 1020kg for a Honda Jazz.  So I guess the Leaf needs all the help it can get to stop.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 15, 2019, 07:48:18 AM
Tesla have announced their new Model Y, with 300 mile range (EPA estimate).

https://www.tesla.com/modely (https://www.tesla.com/modely)

(https://edge.slashgear.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/tesla-model-x.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on March 15, 2019, 07:52:32 AM
Tesla have announced their new Model Y, with 300 mile range (EPA estimate).

200 mile real world range then,  they are getting there slowly...
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 15, 2019, 02:13:33 PM
Stagecoach are introducing new hybrid buses on my local service. I will have to look out for them. The brand new double deck buses are low floor easy-access and fully equipped with leather seats, seatbelts, free wi-fi, USB charging points and contactless payment facilities. And 19 reg!

https://www.fifetoday.co.uk/news/new-electric-buses-added-to-key-fife-service-1-4890160 (https://www.fifetoday.co.uk/news/new-electric-buses-added-to-key-fife-service-1-4890160)

(https://images-e.jpimedia.uk/imagefetch/w_700,f_auto,ar_3:2,q_auto:low,c_fill/if_h_lte_200,c_mfit,h_201/https://www.fifetoday.co.uk/webimage/1.4890159.1552656016!/image/image.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 16, 2019, 06:48:22 PM
Saw one of my hybrid buses today. The only deckers Stagecoach let me drive had 1,000,000 miles plus, and counting!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on March 16, 2019, 10:35:05 PM
Stagecoach are well behind the curve if they’ve only just started using these buses. First Bus have been using hybrids with similar bells and whistles in Bristol & Bath for some years now. Latest wheeze in Bristol is buses that automatically switch to battery-only in the Air Quality Management Areas:
https://www.firstgroup.com/bristol-bath-and-west/routes-and-maps/electricity

First are not doing this out of any sense of altruism, they’re being forced to innovate by measures like the Clean Air Zone planned for next year in Bath which would add £100/day to the operating costs of any non-compliant buses:
https://www.bathnes.gov.uk/bath-breathes-2021-overview/overview-scheme
Bristol is looking at something similar but has yet to decide. Expect more of this sort of thing in major cities.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 17, 2019, 08:38:29 AM
Stagecoach have been using "green" buses for a while. This is the first of them appearing on my local route.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on March 17, 2019, 08:44:11 AM
Sydney ( Aus ) were using gas powered buses and taxis when we were living there in the 1980's and 90's and had been using them for quite a while before that.  Problem with the taxis though was that gas tank took up a lot of space in the boot where your suitcases etc. needed it.  I don't know if taxis switched from petrol to gas when they went into city or if the gas tank would not fit into original fuel tank space.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 17, 2019, 09:59:49 AM
(https://krisdedecker.typepad.com/.a/6a00e0099229e888330147e4413c14970b-500wi)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on March 17, 2019, 11:04:56 AM
If we're getting into that sort of exotica ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bio_bus

Not sure if it's deployment on the "No.2 route", it's registration number, and the graphics on the side of it, helped or hindered public acceptance, but at least someone had a sense of humour. That particular vehicle is no more, but it looks like it's legacy lives on:
https://www.bristol247.com/lifestyle/environment/bristol-launches-bio-gas-bus/
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on March 18, 2019, 10:02:15 AM
Honest John has a horror story with a Nissan Cashcow ...
"Nervous brake-down
My son has a new Qashqai with manual transmission (3 weeks old) and on the motorway this week had a problem with the cruise control. It was set at 70mph and, as traffic slowed in front, he applied the brake but the cruise control did not disengage. He ended up causing damage to another car and some scrape damage to his own. The cruise control was still active on the hard shoulder. Can you help? Have you had any reports of problems with cruise control? Also, on the same journey, as he tried to join the motorway with the road completely clear in front, the car automatically did an emergency stop. The car is being repaired this week and then Nissan will test the cruise control. Any advice for him?

KP, Walsall "

https://tinyurl.com/y4jo53us

What price fully automated car reliability? :P
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 18, 2019, 10:26:27 AM
Any advice for him?
Reject it and tell them he wants his money back.

This is more a post for Autonomous cars thread than Electric cars.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on April 04, 2019, 10:11:04 AM
75% of pre-orders for the new Peugeot 208 are for all electric versions of the car. It just demonstrates the demand and desire for pure electric versions of mainstream cars.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on April 04, 2019, 10:31:38 AM
Well we knew it would happen,  government was not going to let all that motorist revenue slip through their fingers.. they have to get money to waste on stupid things from somewhere - pretty much wipes out the savings people buying BEV were hoping to make..

It was obvious that people will be lured to BEV and then the cost of running them will be made up to about the same as running an ICE car by greedy government schemes.

The next step will be to increase road pricing depending on battery size, vehicle weight etc. etc...........

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/news/motoring-news/new-fuel-tax-annual-road-toll/?utm_source=email&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=CHUB_MEMSIN_A_W1_2019-04-03_160446_10175229&cid=eml-email-CHUB_MEMSIN_A_W1_2019-04-03_160446_10175229-Drive_NL_MEMB_1st_Feature
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on April 04, 2019, 02:22:12 PM
I don't mind paying for miles driven if the taxation comes off the petrol. That way I can go back to a big, luxury car. The reason I ditched the Volvo was primarily petrol costs.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on April 05, 2019, 07:07:45 AM
A report today says that electric car uptake is now outstripping public charging facilities, with councils falling behind on supplying infrastructure. Mind you, if they cannot afford to empty the bins how are the supposed to supply and maintain charging points.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47696839 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47696839)

Central Scotland seems to do quite well, but the North West of Scotland is poorly catered for. Mind you, you can go 50 miles between filling stations up there, and then pay through the nose for what petrol there is!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on April 18, 2019, 07:23:17 AM
Saw a bit on the news regarding the Rivian BEV SUV and pick up, due on sale next year. The BBC World News were looking at it at the LA Auto Show. Looks impressive.

(https://cdn2.autoexpress.co.uk/sites/autoexpressuk/files/2018/11/image-from-ios-5_0.jpg)
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/deJGPiLhamU/maxresdefault.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on April 18, 2019, 08:34:46 AM
With the aeodynamics of a brick which won't help the range! However, better to waste electricity (provided carbon-free generation) than wasting carbon-based fuel.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on April 18, 2019, 09:40:56 AM
The US are daft on their "trucks", so it could go down a storm.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on April 23, 2019, 09:58:08 AM
I see Tesla are sending a team to investigate why a Model S suddenly caught fire and exploded in a Shanghai car park. Teslas getting nearly as bad as Kias and Hyundais.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48009163 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48009163)

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on May 21, 2019, 11:27:00 AM
https://www.driving.co.uk/news/one-in-10-drivers-think-electric-cars-cant-be-used-in-rain/
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on May 21, 2019, 11:36:20 AM
https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/know-how/can-electric-cars-tow/

Seems that BEV car makers not keen to get their vehicles approved for towing,  the range will be badly affected and that is something they don't want people to know - so if you tow a caravan on the motorway in the rain with a Tesla X maybe the range comes down to about 100 miles ??
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on May 21, 2019, 11:58:58 AM
I'm all for that. Get some of the bl**dy caravans of Scotland's roads!

A report on the news this morning said that only one in four people would buy an electric car in the next 5 years.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48340202 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48340202)
This was after a trial where they were given an electric, plug in hybrid, and ICE car to drive for four days each vehicle.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest7494 on May 21, 2019, 02:16:19 PM
I'm all for that. Get some of the bl**dy caravans of Scotland's roads!

A report on the news this morning said that only one in four people would buy an electric car in the next 5 years.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48340202 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48340202)
This was after a trial where they were given an electric, plug in hybrid, and ICE car to drive for four days each vehicle.



I'm all for that. Get some of the bl**dy caravans of Scotland's roads

Hi Jocko, some of those caravans could be attempting an escape  down South.?.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on May 21, 2019, 02:30:15 PM
Self driving caravans are the answer. You set your caravan off on it's own on a direct route on the low road to your next campsite, leaving you to take the high road round the North Coast 500 without having to worry about narrow roads and tricky reversing.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on May 21, 2019, 03:46:38 PM
Self driving caravans are the answer. You set your caravan off on it's own on a direct route on the low road to your next campsite, leaving you to take the high road round the North Coast 500 without having to worry about narrow roads and tricky reversing.
I'm afraid there is only one road.   :-[
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on May 21, 2019, 04:16:23 PM
My son-in-law had a job where he had to travel to places around the west highlands. The head office used to quiz him as to why it took him over 2 hours to do the 75 miles from Fort William, to Plockton, in a big van. Even driving at 60 it should only take 1 hr 15 !!!!!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on June 04, 2019, 10:01:11 AM

A genuine 250 mile EV. Looks they are getting there but still out of my price range.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on June 04, 2019, 10:39:13 AM
Hmmm, still £37K - slightly less than Tesla model 3 but I bet the Kia build quality is in a different ( higher ) league than the Tesla - this is the kind of competition that is going to threaten Tesla.  If I had to choose between this and Model 3 it would be the Kia,  over 4 miles per KWh is outstanding economy, and although Tesla claim 4 miles per KWh for model 3 I somehow struggle to believe them..
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest4871 on June 04, 2019, 12:23:28 PM
European Automobile Manufacturer’ Association quote the EU car fleet at 257 million at the end of 2018.

McKinsey suggest, conservatively, approximately 120 m EVs will be on the roads of China, USA and EU by 2030.

ACEA puts per capita ownership in EU at 587 per 1,000 people compared with 173 in China.

If it settled at half the EU rate that would equate to 407 million cars in China, a figure 47% above the total number of vehicles presently on US roads.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on June 04, 2019, 01:43:49 PM
My son-in-law works for Bear Scotland, who maintain the trunk roads in North East and North West Scotland. They have a mammoth fleet of vehicles, from company cars to snowploughs and snow blowers. John's job is to maintain and repair vehicles in his area.
On Saturday, he informed me that Bear Scotland has announced, that by 2020, 10% of it's fleet will be electric. He believes it will be a mix of BEV and Hybrid vehicles.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on June 04, 2019, 04:05:11 PM


If it settled at half the EU rate that would equate to 407 million cars in China, a figure 47% above the total number of vehicles presently on US roads.

China has a massive demographics problem with older citizens, population has been running on empty since the one child policy introduced about 40 years ago. So a large part of Chinese population either too old to drive or too old to learn to drive ( and many too poor to even think of owning a car ). So do not be surprised if car ownership does not grow much.  Also their double digit economic growth is a thing of the past, only possible when you start from a low base.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on June 04, 2019, 10:26:59 PM
https://www.arnoldclark.com/new-cars/renault/zoe/80kw-dynamique-nav-r110-40kwh-22kwch-5dr-auto/0/ref/blk_zut8mpzy3b595dvx

Now this is getting there in terms of price and range.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on June 05, 2019, 08:51:45 AM
Getting there but the independent review on that page, gives a real world range of 186 miles. Combine that with a ten hour 'fast charge' and you can see why there will still be resistance to this technology for a little while yet.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on June 05, 2019, 09:35:30 AM
I agree Richard although the 40kwh Zoe would almost certainly suit my needs as they stand. Still some way to go before they become genuinely mainstream.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on June 05, 2019, 09:53:54 AM
Getting there but the independent review on that page, gives a real world range of 186 miles. Combine that with a ten hour 'fast charge' and you can see why there will still be resistance to this technology for a little while yet.
I have to agree, but thousands of motorists, like myself, are never away from home for 186 miles at a time. The furthest I have ever done, during my ownership of the Jazz, is 180 miles, but that was a real exception, going for a run for the sake of going for a run. Obviously with a range limit, I would have trimmed that a little. And my car is always parked at home for AT LEAST 10 hours per night. So for me, we are there!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on June 05, 2019, 12:16:17 PM
Getting there but the independent review on that page, gives a real world range of 186 miles. Combine that with a ten hour 'fast charge' and you can see why there will still be resistance to this technology for a little while yet.
I have to agree, but thousands of motorists, like myself, are never away from home for 186 miles at a time. The furthest I have ever done, during my ownership of the Jazz, is 180 miles, but that was a real exception, going for a run for the sake of going for a run. Obviously with a range limit, I would have trimmed that a little. And my car is always parked at home for AT LEAST 10 hours per night. So for me, we are there!

The frustrating thing for me Jocko is that, in a typical week, a 24kwh Nissan Leaf would do me. Indeed for any UK holidays I would simply hire a petrol car. It's a relatively small number of longer journeys that kybosh it for me. Some friends we see about 5 times a year are a 120 mile round trip away. Some other friends quite literally live in a charge point desert (High Peak in the Peak District) and it's an 80 mile round trip.

It's frustrating because I want to own an EV before my driving days are up.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on June 05, 2019, 05:05:02 PM
The Zoe would happily cope with those trips.

https://www.arnoldclark.com/new-cars/renault/zoe/80kw-dynamique-nav-r110-40kwh-22kwch-5dr-auto/0/ref/blk_zut8mpzy3b595dvx (https://www.arnoldclark.com/new-cars/renault/zoe/80kw-dynamique-nav-r110-40kwh-22kwch-5dr-auto/0/ref/blk_zut8mpzy3b595dvx)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on June 05, 2019, 06:41:48 PM
The Zoe would happily cope with those trips.

https://www.arnoldclark.com/new-cars/renault/zoe/80kw-dynamique-nav-r110-40kwh-22kwch-5dr-auto/0/ref/blk_zut8mpzy3b595dvx (https://www.arnoldclark.com/new-cars/renault/zoe/80kw-dynamique-nav-r110-40kwh-22kwch-5dr-auto/0/ref/blk_zut8mpzy3b595dvx)

https://www.whatcar.com/news/renault-zoe-long-term-test-review/n16067

quote from whatcar long term test

Official range 250 miles
Real-world range 160 miles (summer);
130 miles (winter)

So less than 65% range in summer and just over 50% in winter

That 250 mile range must have been on a warm day going round a flat track at steady 50mph with aircon turned off.

ICE car makers make claims for fuel consumption and if they are more than 10% out people complain.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on June 09, 2019, 12:53:50 PM
See the electric bikes at this year's TT made a great impression.
TT Zero standing start lap was Michael Rutter – 121.909mph / 18 minutes 34 seconds. Significantly, however, in a straight line Rutter could show exactly how far all-electric technology has come after coming through the Sulby speed traps at 176mph, which is faster than the Supersport bikes from earlier in the day.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on June 09, 2019, 12:59:05 PM
See the electric bikes at this year's TT made a great impression.
TT Zero standing start lap was Michael Rutter – 121.909mph / 18 minutes 34 seconds. Significantly, however, in a straight line Rutter could show exactly how far all-electric technology has come after coming through the Sulby speed traps at 176mph, which is faster than the Supersport bikes from earlier in the day.

Problem is that TT Zero is only one lap ( 37.5 miles ), where ICE bikes do 6 laps --- range is a problem once again.  Supersport bikes only 600cc as well.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on June 09, 2019, 01:15:11 PM
I'll grant you that, but the ICE bikes have to refuel every two laps. The do not do 6 laps on one tankful.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on June 09, 2019, 02:46:13 PM
I'll grant you that, but the ICE bikes have to refuel every two laps. The do not do 6 laps on one tankful.

Well when the electric bikes can do six laps with 2 pitstops we may be getting somewhere.... battery bikes still nearly 100 kg heavier than ICE bikes thought.

Maybe need to have much, much, much etc. longer pit stops to allow for recharging - spectators would go to pub during first pit stop and probably stay there !  The bike with fastest charge would then win.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on June 11, 2019, 09:19:13 AM
Maybe need to have much, much, much etc. longer pit stops to allow for recharging - spectators would go to pub during first pit stop and probably stay there !  The bike with fastest charge would then win.

Why? Surely they would just swap the battery out, could be made quicker than refuelling a conventional 'bike.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on June 11, 2019, 10:29:19 AM
Maybe need to have much, much, much etc. longer pit stops to allow for recharging - spectators would go to pub during first pit stop and probably stay there !  The bike with fastest charge would then win.

Why? Surely they would just swap the battery out, could be made quicker than refuelling a conventional 'bike.

I have seen no feasible plans to have standardised quick change batteries on any other vehicles ( industrial fork lift trucks and milk floats have have them for decades ). Sure they could do it in special situations like motorsport but that is not happening in production vehicles.  I guess it will be a long time before we see it in production vehicles, we still don't have swappable batteries in smart phones, many are that integrated into the phone it takes microsurgery to replace them.

It is not in car makers interest to make older EV batteries up-gradable or to make them quick change because this would mean people would hang onto older models longer and sales would be hit. Many people upgrade their car to a new model for longer range or better performance.  The logistics of having different manufacturers batteries available at all the places they are needed ( motorway services etc) is mind boggling and nobody wants to swap a battery that has been well looked after for one with unknown history.

The 80% figure in vehicle batteries is important because the algorithms that protect the battery don't like the top 20% and bottom 30% of battery to be used when new to protect the battery from damage.  As the battery ages these areas are encroached upon to maintain range in an aging battery, and I believe some vehicles may show zero range at 30% charge remaining but an 'emergency' button will let car continue driving to reach a charging station.. 

https://transportevolved.com/2016/02/16/five-reasons-battery-upgrades-for-electric-cars-arent-usually-offered-and-why-you-shouldnt-expect-one/
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on June 11, 2019, 04:54:24 PM
Sure they could do it in special situations like motorsport
Which is exactly what we are talking about here.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on June 12, 2019, 09:48:20 AM
Way back in 2002 I took my family to Florida and whilst visiting EPCOT we came across a presentation of the GM EV concept nicknamed the skateboard. This was essentially the essence of an electric vehicle without a body on top. Inspired by the original design of the Mercedes A Class it was a flat sliver containing all the battery and electronics required for an EV with electric motors in the wheels.

It seemed to me to be a great concept. It would allow you to drive up to a particular location, detach your 'cabin' from the chassis and attach to a new fully charged chassis and continue on your journey. Alternatively, for car manufacturers, it would allow them to supply different 'cabins' dependent on what the user needs - a two seater sports, an SUV, an estate car etc. I don't say owner as ownership as a concept would be irrelevant in this model.

Essentially, Tesla have taken this concept and used it to create their own EV architecture.

Now imagine these EV chassis as being autonomous, self contained and completely interchangeable, perhaps within brand and overall vehicle size. Suddenly, you have an EV ecosystem. Maybe you drive a Ford compact EV. This would allow you to choose from say a City Car, 2 seater or small family MPV as you needed, and exchange chassis at an interchange station. Or maybe you have a Jaguar large EV, allowing you to choose a large family saloon, large MPV or commercial van chassis.

http://evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=286

This Forbes article is a good read, giving some history and some images of the things I have been discussing here.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/samabuelsamid/2016/05/23/the-father-of-the-skateboard-chassis-dr-chris-borroni-bird/#52e6abbf7b30
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on June 25, 2019, 12:00:54 PM
https://qz.com/1295679/why-the-solar-revolution-is-in-grave-danger-and-how-it-can-be-saved/

Interesting article about two different futures for renewable power.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on June 25, 2019, 01:30:19 PM
Did anyone see this week's "Top Gear"? The Stig took the Tesla Model 3 round their test track and put it well up the leader board, equal with the ASTON MARTIN DB11 V12 and above the BMW M3 4DR DCT, PORSCHE CAYMAN GTS and  JAGUAR F-TYPE R COUPE. So much for stories of disappointing performance and handling.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on June 25, 2019, 02:35:31 PM
Well Elon Musk's Tesla Roadster is currently doing over 12,000 mph on it's approach to Mars.

https://www.whereisroadster.com
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on June 28, 2019, 09:52:56 AM
(https://venturebeat.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/2391-b4d7644c4739d11a54ce27cc178bafe4.jpg?fit=1975%2C1251&strip=all)

This is an interesting car, the prototype of which has just done it's first drive. Built by the startup company in the Netherlands, that has won the Solar Challenge, it will be available to lottery winners in 2021 (the first ones will cost €150,000).
It is a luxury car, built for efficiency. It will have a 800 km (500 miles) range at best and a minimum of 400 km (248 miles) in the worst winter conditions, at high speed and with full heating and air conditioning. The battery is 2/3rds the size as that of a Tesla. It has in wheel motors (they have managed to get the unsprung weight to almost that of a conventional wheel and tyre). The solar panels will give 10,000 km (6,200 miles) per year (to users in the Netherlands. Less as you go significantly North and much more in sunnier climes). It can also be rapid charged from all the standard chargers as well as domestic mains.
Not a car for the masses or early adopters but a look at the way technology is moving.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on June 30, 2019, 09:15:07 AM
More EU nonsense.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48815968 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48815968)
I find that modern car engines tend to be quiet anyway, that tyre noise is a bigger giveaway than the engine.
And drivers can switch it off? Seems regulation for regulations sake.
Mind you. I did read about one woman who had been knocked down by twice, by the same electric car, at exactly the same spot. Think she deserved it the second time?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on June 30, 2019, 09:38:15 AM
More EU nonsense.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48815968 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48815968)
I find that modern car engines tend to be quiet anyway, that tyre noise is a bigger giveaway than the engine.
And drivers can switch it off? Seems regulation for regulations sake.

Seems reasonable to me under 12mph, there can be zero tyre noise on good surfaces. Electric cars, and indeed hybrids, are spookily quiet when pulling away.

Agree though about the general quietness of cars these days, you can hardly tell the Jazz is running at tick over... until you pull away, trying to avoid stalling.  ;D  Other car is a diesel, and even that can sneak up on meandering cyclists on country lanes.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on June 30, 2019, 09:54:54 AM
More EU nonsense.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48815968 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48815968)
I find that modern car engines tend to be quiet anyway, that tyre noise is a bigger giveaway than the engine.
And drivers can switch it off? Seems regulation for regulations sake.

Seems reasonable to me under 12mph, there can be zero tyre noise on good surfaces. Electric cars, and indeed hybrids, are spookily quiet when pulling away.

Agree though about the general quietness of cars these days, you can hardly tell the Jazz is running at tick over... until you pull away, trying to avoid stalling.  ;D  Other car is a diesel, and even that can sneak up on meandering cyclists on country lanes.

It's a good few years ago now - at least 10 - when I nearly met my maker under the wheels of a Toyota Prius in Tesco's car park. There does need to be an audible warning.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on June 30, 2019, 10:41:51 AM
Nice of you could re-programme the sound, like sat navs. "Reversing I am", or "Feck off, feck off, feck off".
Wonder if this will open the door for reversing warnings for cars, currently illegal in the UK.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on June 30, 2019, 10:13:51 PM
Nice of you could re-programme the sound, like sat navs. "Reversing I am", or "Feck off, feck off, feck off".

Not sure if it will be allowed by the legislation, but there was some talk of a user selectable sound. I don't think it would be in the realms of fantasy for someone to hack the software...
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on June 30, 2019, 10:21:00 PM
I think it's a good idea and should also apply to the electric vehicles which use footpaths. I'd like a steam engine chuffing noise.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 01, 2019, 08:45:56 AM
there was some talk of a user selectable sound.
A Twizy with a burbling V8 !
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on July 01, 2019, 08:55:55 AM
So any quiet vehicle travelling below 12mph needs a 'pedestrian safety noise' - does that include mobility scooters and bicycles ?  this could open a real can of worms. Some normal ICE cars are very quiet at low speeds as well. 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on July 01, 2019, 10:05:36 AM
So any quiet vehicle travelling below 12mph needs a 'pedestrian safety noise' - does that include mobility scooters and bicycles ?

To be honest, some mobility scooter users are downright dangerous. There was a 'hit and run' incident in the pedestrian part of the local town the other week where someone was quite seriously injured, and about a month or so ago, I witnessed one in Aldi where a fellow on a large, fast mobility scooter went flying through the checkout, totally out of control, barrelling this poor old woman over. To be honest, I thought he was going through the plate glass window! The speed needs restricting on some of these things, and the way some folk use them, I think there is an argument for some sort of audible warning.

As for cyclists, and most mobility scooter users, visibility is not restricted in the same way as a car, and a diligent user should spot even a small child. In any case a bicycle reversing over you is not going to do quite the same damage as a ton or more of electric car.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on July 01, 2019, 10:09:55 AM
So any quiet vehicle travelling below 12mph needs a 'pedestrian safety noise' - does that include mobility scooters and bicycles ?

To be honest, some mobility scooter users are downright dangerous. There was a 'hit and run' incident in the pedestrian part of the local town the other week where someone was quite seriously injured, and about a month or so ago, I witnessed one in Aldi where a fellow on a large, fast mobility scooter went flying through the checkout, totally out of control, barrelling this poor old woman over. To be honest, I thought he was going through the plate glass window! The speed needs restricting on some of these things, they are downright dangerous, and the way some folk use them, I think there is an argument for some sort of audible warning.

As for cyclists, and most mobility scooter users, visibility is not restricted in the same way as a car, and a diligent user should spot even a small child. In any case a bicycle reversing over you is not going to do quite the same damage as a ton or more of electric car.

I've seen some insane mobility scooter driving as well. In Boots Opticians (oh the irony) some old geezer (older than me anyway) reversed into me and just shot off when I tried to remonstrate. In Sainsburys - only yesterday - some maniac was driving his scooter at high speeds - you could hear the electric motor accelerating - I'd go for for speed limiters on these things.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 01, 2019, 10:16:21 AM
My wife was getting home from hospital yesterday, and as I pushed her along the corridor, in a wheel chair, I met a lady on a mobility scooter coming the other way. I stopped, she smiled, turned sharp left, and accelerated head on into the wall! Glad I didn't meet her in the car park when she was in her car.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on July 01, 2019, 10:34:24 AM
This bloke in Aldi was on a scooter that only just fitted through the till aisle, I think he caught the throttle on the side of the other till and got it jammed full on, he was just a blur. I felt so sorry for this little old woman, she was knocked over like a skittle and had to be helped up onto a chair. I heard her say she had just had a new knee! She didn't want any fuss, and went home after a sit down, despite offers of help - I saw her limping over the carpark.

All the silly bugger on the scooter could say was "it got stuck". I think I would have been on the floor, "send for an ambulance!".
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on July 01, 2019, 02:15:01 PM
I agree about kamikaze mobility scooter drivers / riders,  especially inside shopping malls and shops.  Mind you were in Morecambe last week having a stroll along the fairly wide promenade and the number and speed of bikes along there sharing it with pedestrians but whizzing up behind you and through gaps between pedestrians was alarming, and no bell to warn you, as usual the full lycra wearing tour de France wannabes were the worst offenders..
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on July 01, 2019, 03:21:08 PM
Cyclists on pavements.

Don't get me started  >:( >:( >:(
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on July 01, 2019, 03:47:04 PM
I agree about kamikaze mobility scooter drivers / riders,  especially inside shopping malls and shops.  Mind you were in Morecambe last week having a stroll along the fairly wide promenade and the number and speed of bikes along there sharing it with pedestrians but whizzing up behind you and through gaps between pedestrians was alarming, and no bell to warn you, as usual the full lycra wearing tour de France wannabes were the worst offenders..

Cyclists on pavements.

Don't get me started  >:( >:( >:(


To be fair, the cyclists are actually committing an offence by cycling on pavements/pedestrian areas, but mobility scooters seem to be a grey area - they certainly seem to think they have every right on pavements, and on roads for that matter. I just think they should be restricted to pedestrian speeds.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinS on July 01, 2019, 05:17:11 PM
I just think they should be restricted to pedestrian speeds.
+1
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on July 01, 2019, 07:23:51 PM
Maybe mobility scooters should be fitted with emergency automatic braking ( but there would probably be a shopping bag or blanket blocking the sensors ) - or at least a transponder that limits the speed when they go through doorways into shops and public buildings until they come out again.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on July 01, 2019, 11:23:01 PM
There are speed limits for these scooters, what I can't understand is why they allow the sale of scooters which can go 20+mph?

The limit for class 2 scooters, intended for pavement use, is 4 mph. For the bigger class 3 scooters, intended for use on the pavement and road, the limit is 8mph. Class 3 scooters have to be registered with the DVLA, I wonder how many of them actually are?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 02, 2019, 07:43:22 AM
I think all scooters should require Public Liability insurance, with a sticker displayed to show they are insured. Plus a test before they can be used.  Like CBT for a bike.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 02, 2019, 09:51:44 AM
Fully Charged has had a first drive in the Honda e, and he seemed rather impressed. What he really loved were the camera mirrors, which he raved about, and the turning circle, which is about half that of a London black cab! He was also impressed with the acceleration, even in normal mode (it has Normal and Sport modes), and the one pedal operation.
Video is 12 minutes long and worth a watch.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on July 03, 2019, 09:01:15 AM
I agree about kamikaze mobility scooter drivers / riders,  especially inside shopping malls and shops.  Mind you were in Morecambe last week having a stroll along the fairly wide promenade and the number and speed of bikes along there sharing it with pedestrians but whizzing up behind you and through gaps between pedestrians was alarming, and no bell to warn you, as usual the full lycra wearing tour de France wannabes were the worst offenders..

Cyclists on pavements.

Don't get me started  >:( >:( >:(


To be fair, the cyclists are actually committing an offence by cycling on pavements/pedestrian areas, but mobility scooters seem to be a grey area - they certainly seem to think they have every right on pavements, and on roads for that matter. I just think they should be restricted to pedestrian speeds.

In Morecambe, the cycle lane is on the Promenade, so not illegal, but stupid design. It is about time we:

- created properly designated cycle lanes that can't be blocked by parked cars and clearly separate cyclists from pedestrians and cars.
- made parking across a pavement or cycle lane illegal

Where I live, the Cycle Route 66 passes through the Pennines by using a variety of means, one of the most common being the canal towpaths. As a runner, cyclists approaching me from behind are a real menace. Once I was leading a small group of runners and a bike came up behind, silently. I never run with headphones in, so I heard him and shouted 'BIKE' to warn my colleagues.

He said 'sorry, I fell a while back and my bell broke'.
I said 'did your voice break too?'

On the canal towpath the priority is pedestrians first (which includes runners), then bikes. But cyclists seem to forget that. Cyclists must give way to pedestrians. However, pedestrians need to be realistic and not unreasonably block the cyclists.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on July 03, 2019, 11:55:39 AM
On the canal towpath the priority is pedestrians first (which includes runners), then bikes. But cyclists seem to forget that. Cyclists must give way to pedestrians. However, pedestrians need to be realistic and not unreasonably block the cyclists.

When I was an apprentice one of the other Appies used to go jogging along local canals with his mate, one day two lads on bikes rode towards them side by side and showed no sign of giving way - he stood his ground ( he was a big lad ) and as they refused to dismount and started getting lippy and told him to move out the way he pulled them off their bikes and threw the bikes into canal.  These days he may have got stabbed, but I think those pair were so shocked they didn't know what to do.

Cyclists seem oblivious to the rules of the road and think non of it applies to them, including speed limits, not riding across pedestrian crossings and obeying traffic lights. 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: springswood on July 03, 2019, 05:59:38 PM
I often use that towpath on route 66 near Saltaire. A few months ago signs appeared reminding pedestrians, cyclists and dog walkers to be considerate and courteous. Seem to have worked remarkably well.

Getting nearer to topic I once saw en electric boat there. Spooky, it was so quiet.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 04, 2019, 12:45:05 PM
Looking at prices of used Tesla Model s and you can buy a 5 year old. low mileage (42,000 miles), SE85 for £34,000. It comes with free Supercharging for life, and an 8 year warranty on battery and drive unit.
A lot of car for the money. A Honda e would have to slot in lower than that price.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 04, 2019, 02:16:40 PM
Shock horror: 'Grave concern' as sales of low emission cars fall. Sales of low emission vehicles have fallen for the first time in over two years. "hybrid electric vehicle sales were down 4.7%" however TOTAL NEW CAR SALES were down 4.9%. Does that not mean that in a falling market, hybrid electric vehicles did better than conventional cars?
Registrations of battery electric vehicles are up over 60% this year compared to the same period in 2018.
To me this says car sales are struggling but battery and hybrid cars are struggling less than most. Or maybe I am just biased?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 04, 2019, 03:05:24 PM
Renault have just announced prices for the new 50 kWh Zoe, but more importantly they are dropping the entry level 22 kWh and are now supplying the 40 kWh for the price of the deleted 22 kWh Zoe. Battery packs can be leased or bought outright. It is still expensive compared with comparable ICE cars but the prices are coming down.
It will certainly put pressure on Honda and the price of the upcoming Honda e
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: MartinJG on July 04, 2019, 03:08:16 PM
Shock horror: 'Grave concern' as sales of low emission cars fall. Sales of low emission vehicles have fallen for the first time in over two years. "hybrid electric vehicle sales were down 4.7%" however TOTAL NEW CAR SALES were down 4.9%. Does that not mean that in a falling market, hybrid electric vehicles did better than conventional cars?
Registrations of battery electric vehicles are up over 60% this year compared to the same period in 2018.
To me this says car sales are struggling but battery and hybrid cars are struggling less than most. Or maybe I am just biased?

Or maybe you are blessed with a little more common sense than the journo who scribbled the missive, allowing for the routine sensationalism.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: MartinJG on July 04, 2019, 03:11:30 PM
Renault have just announced prices for the new 50 kWh Zoe, but more importantly they are dropping the entry level 22 kWh and are now supplying the 40 kWh for the price of the deleted 22 kWh Zoe. Battery packs can be leased or bought outright. It is still expensive compared with comparable ICE cars but the prices are coming down.
It will certainly put pressure on Honda and the price of the upcoming Honda e

Hopefully enough pressure for them to see sense and replace that 'cool' retro seventies formica dashboard.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 04, 2019, 03:42:38 PM
According to Car magazine it actually feels like wood! Another thing I didn't realise until I read the Car report was it is a 5 door, albeit only 4 seats. Mind you, I have never had more than 4 in my Jazz and that was only on my test drive.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 05, 2019, 07:22:43 AM
Jaguar will today announce an enormous investment in electric car production at their Castle Bromwich plant, securing jobs for the future.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48875406 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48875406)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on July 05, 2019, 02:30:22 PM
Jaguar will today announce an enormous investment in electric car production at their Castle Bromwich plant, securing jobs for the future.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48875406 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48875406)

Are the 2,700 jobs saved seperate to the 4,500 job losses already announced and 1,500 lost last year, or are 2,700 of those 4,500 jobs being saved? The report isn't clear.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on July 05, 2019, 06:00:16 PM
The JLR announcement has to be good news. More generally, and given the uncertainty around Brexit, I'm surprised the Government is cutting subsidies on EVs. I'd be ramping them up and making the UK the most attractive place for new investment in Electric and other alternatively powered vehicles.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 09, 2019, 08:29:12 AM
The government finally getting off its backside and investing £40m into improving the infrastructure for electric vehicles. In Norway, where the government has got heavily involved, sales of electric vehicles have reached almost 60% of new car sales.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48913028 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48913028)
https://www.energylivenews.com/2019/04/02/evs-made-up-almost-60-of-norways-new-car-sales-in-march/ (https://www.energylivenews.com/2019/04/02/evs-made-up-almost-60-of-norways-new-car-sales-in-march/)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 12, 2019, 01:42:36 PM
That is Ford and VW's long awaiting collaboration announcement for electric and self-driving cars.
VW are investing £2.1bn in Ford's self driving unit.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48965315 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48965315)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on July 21, 2019, 03:57:49 PM
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/advice/everything-need-know-lithium-ion-batteries-car-makers-forgot/

This is interesting and confirms what I suspected with BEV batteries, the vehicle software normally limits the charge envelope of the battery ( stops it fully charging or discharging ) to an area 80% charged ( leaving out the top 20% )  and 30% discharged ( not wanting you to use the bottom 30% ) - as the battery ages / degrades the software increases this envelope to maintain range.  And that fast charging regularly will damage the battery.  Charging the battery to 100% and leaving it on the driveway also damages the battery...  The truth will out,  but as the article says the car makers do not want you to know some things.

Maybe one of the things about having interchangeable batteries for quick turnaround is that the vehicle will not know the state of charge, state of health or age of the changed battery - each battery may need a memory chip containing the batteries history so that the vehicle can interrogate it and adjust parameters to suit.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 21, 2019, 04:21:27 PM
Nothing new there. The Tesla used by Tesloop, which used non stop Supercharging, had the battery replaced at 194,000 miles and 324,000 miles. This is being Supercharged multiple times per day and to 95 - 100% (not recommended by Tesla.

https://electrek.co/2018/07/17/tesla-model-s-holds-up-400000-miles-3-years/ (https://electrek.co/2018/07/17/tesla-model-s-holds-up-400000-miles-3-years/)

This car has now gone on to do over 400,000 miles.

https://www.tesloop.com/blog/2019/2/6/tesloops-high-mileage-teslas (https://www.tesloop.com/blog/2019/2/6/tesloops-high-mileage-teslas)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 29, 2019, 08:34:28 PM
Just saw the new Volkswagen electric car advert on telly tonight.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on July 30, 2019, 09:04:12 AM
Just saw the new Volkswagen electric car advert on telly tonight.


Me too, I think the bus will be popular. Expensive, but popular.

The European manufacturers will need to get moving sharpish, before the trickle of Chinese built EVs turns into a flood. The MG ZS EV might have its faults, but if you sign up for one now, it's a lot of EV for £21,495.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on July 30, 2019, 04:45:27 PM
Just saw the new Volkswagen electric car advert on telly tonight.


Me too, I think the bus will be popular. Expensive, but popular.

The European manufacturers will need to get moving sharpish, before the trickle of Chinese built EVs turns into a flood. The MG ZS EV might have its faults, but if you sign up for one now, it's a lot of EV for £21,495.


Witha claimed range of 163 miles. I am 100% disinterested.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on July 30, 2019, 04:51:57 PM
Witha claimed range of 163 miles. I am 100% disinterested.

To be fair, range is better than the Honda, and it's a bigger vehicle for a lot less money.

I don't think it's too bad for a first effort, we are only at the beginning of EVs coming in near petrol/diesel car prices.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on July 30, 2019, 08:38:37 PM
Witha claimed range of 163 miles. I am 100% disinterested.
According to this review https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/road-tests/mg/mg-zs-ev-2019-road-test/? (https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/road-tests/mg/mg-zs-ev-2019-road-test/?) the range increases for town driving which suggests that the 163 mile nominal range could be stretched by avoiding higher speeds (the same may apply to the Honda e). It's almost tempting to get one at the entry price although it lacks a few useful features (eg electric folding mirrors) which I've got used to having. I've decided that an EV range of a bit over 200 miles would be enough for me as that's the maximum I tend to drive in one day. More battery = higher cost but also means more weight being lugged around.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 30, 2019, 08:58:14 PM
Sounds good provided it doesn't rust away.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on July 30, 2019, 09:09:35 PM
Sounds good provided it doesn't rust away.

If they're made with the same boron steel everything else is made of these days, they won't rust. Can't weld the bloody stuff anyway!

I know these Chinese MGs aren't going to be everybody's cup of tea, but it just shows how things are going. The Chinese are coming, and they are gearing up big for battery and EV production.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 30, 2019, 09:13:15 PM
Though Boron Steel was only used in specific parts.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on July 30, 2019, 09:17:10 PM
Though Boron Steel was only used in specific parts.

It's being used for bodyshells and panels now, and even things like exhausts - they can make them so much thinner and lighter. I know that because we tried to weld up a hole in one!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on July 30, 2019, 09:27:58 PM
Though Boron Steel was only used in specific parts.

High strength steels very common in vehicle bodies now,  it is surprising how much weight you save by going down a gauge on steel. I worked on latest jaguar car bodies,  a mixture of aluminium and high strength BH zinc coated steel ( BH is bake hardening) the steels get full hardness and strength when painted bodies go through ovens. Problem is the steels harden more slowly at room temperature and approaching 6 months after the sheet is made it is impossible to press into shape because it has hardened so much it just cracks and splits and springs back from pressed shape,  during final processing at steel mill they actually print the date it was made along the strip like a best before or use by date, most presses now fed with pre cut blanks so blanks had date on as well.  Very difficult to weld, instead of nut normally welded to steel panels clinched nuts are used, and aluminium bits joined with self piercing rivets and high tech adhesives.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 31, 2019, 01:39:32 PM
Just watched last night's "Revolutions: Ideas that changed the world. The Car."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000775k/revolutions-the-ideas-that-changed-the-world-series-1-2-the-car (https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000775k/revolutions-the-ideas-that-changed-the-world-series-1-2-the-car)
A fascinating programme for anyone interested in the motor car, but with interesting facts around electric cars.
It explains how, when ICE cars first came on the scene there was no infrastructure and problems in refuelling(!) but problems with pollution (horse manure), helped its uptake. In 1900, 30% of motor vehicles were electric.
There was an interesting section on Graphene batteries, the real future of electric power storage. When they are scaled up from the current laboratory experiments, they could provide all the answers to electric cars. Basically, the car body will be manufactured from Graphene (lighter and stronger than steel) and this will be the battery. A Graphene battery can be charged as quickly as a petrol tank can be filled (no idea how they will transfer that much energy that quickly).

But as I said, an interesting programme for anyone with interest in the envelopment of the car as a means of transport (did you know the invention of the axle was more important than the wheel itself?).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on July 31, 2019, 02:04:03 PM
I saw that as well Jocko. As you say it looks as if lithium ion batteries will be a "bridging" form of automotive power.

I liked the section on horse manure in New York!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 31, 2019, 02:15:32 PM
I could not believe there was about 1500 tons A DAY, deposited on New York streets, back in 1900. That's a lot of roses!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on August 01, 2019, 06:28:14 AM
Sounds good provided it doesn't rust away.

Halve all quoted ranges in winter
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 01, 2019, 06:35:02 AM
Halve all quoted ranges in winter
What winter? This past winter, here in Fife, has been little colder than out normal summer. Perhaps the EV manufacturers have factored climate change into their calculations!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on August 01, 2019, 09:54:08 AM
I don't you need to halve the range of your EV in winter. My pal has had his 24 kwh Leaf for 3 years now. Admittedly he drives like a granny on tranquilisers but he gets 90 in summer and that goes down to around 70 in really cold weather. Actually he reckons heavy rain is also a big factor in reducing range.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on August 01, 2019, 11:36:52 AM
Halve all quoted ranges in winter
What winter? This past winter, here in Fife, has been little colder than out normal summer. Perhaps the EV manufacturers have factored climate change into their calculations!

Some of us live at altitude  and not near the sea..so get colder winters than those on the coast
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on August 01, 2019, 12:45:50 PM
Halve all quoted ranges in winter
What winter? This past winter, here in Fife, has been little colder than out normal summer. Perhaps the EV manufacturers have factored climate change into their calculations!

Some of us live at altitude  and not near the sea..so get colder winters than those on the coast

Yes - good point - to be fair my pal lives in a flat area (Cheshire Plain as do I) and this must be a factor. Also really rubbish winter weather is quite rare round these parts - even after the beast from the east there wasn't enough snow in our back garden for a decent snowball fight ;D
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on August 01, 2019, 07:16:52 PM
Regarding the effect of winter see long-term tests such as https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/kia/e-niro/106587/kia-e-niro-long-term-test-review (https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/kia/e-niro/106587/kia-e-niro-long-term-test-review). I deduce no more than a 20% hit on the mileage. Unlike an internal combustion engine a battery vehicle is not guzzling extra fuel until it warms up. The extra power drain is caused by accessories and, sensibly, these are power efficient (eg a heat pump instead of direct electric heating) although I don't see LED headlights as standard on all the EVs (the standard testing might not include having the headlights on during part of the cycle).

There's another long-term test at https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/hyundai/kona/105381/hyundai-kona-electric-premium-se-long-term-test-review .
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on August 01, 2019, 09:28:02 PM
Driving styles are crucial I feel but then they are for mpg on an ICE car. When I was actively considering an EV (an itch I still have to be honest) I read reams and reams of stuff including forums on speak.ev.com. Typical exchange might be somebody wondering if a 24 kwh Nissan Leaf would do a 50 mile round trip commute in really bad weather. The variations people came up with were staggering you wondered if they were talking about the same car.

I also read a book by a guy called Michael Boxwell about his Nissan Leaf. This contained some real life tests done on a Mk1 (2011 to 2013) and a Mk2 (2013 - 2017). Very useful reading. What they don't like is 70 mph on the motorway!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 01, 2019, 10:07:56 PM
I'd love to see what range I could get from an electric car. I'll have to ask Jeangenie. She has the new, bigger, Leaf now. I wonder if she would lend it to me for a day!  ::)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on August 02, 2019, 10:22:15 AM
I'd love to see what range I could get from an electric car. I'll have to ask Jeangenie. She has the new, bigger, Leaf now. I wonder if she would lend it to me for a day!  ::)

Yes - I'd be interested to see what you can get. My pal gets very good range from his 2014 Nissan Leaf and I've been in the car with him a few times. He makes good use of the regen braking by lifting off in good time before he has to stop. On the motorway he tends to travel at HGV speed. He doesn't tailgate or draft as such though. He loves 50 mph speed limits!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 02, 2019, 11:46:11 AM
I got picked up by a Leaf taxi this morning (quite a load in Kirkcaldy), and I was quizzing the driver. He said 95% of his driving is in town, and he finds only a marginal difference between summer and winter range. He has had it for three winters now and absolutely loves it. An overnight charge lasts him a whole day's driving (about 100 miles, give or take). He says there has been no deterioration in the battery in the time he has had it. He was wondering about getting the bigger version, but his current "cab" does everything he needs, with virtually no maintenance costs.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on August 02, 2019, 12:14:53 PM
More and more taxi firms are using EVs. There's one in Cornwall - C and C Taxis - and they post regularly on Facebook. Last year they "retired" one of their first Leafs called "Wizzy" if memory serves. It had done over 150,000 and had only lost 2 capacity bars.

In the USA, battery degradation is a much bigger issue on the Leaf especially in hot states because there is no active battery temperature management as there is, say, on a Tesla. The UK's climate seems to suit the Nissan Leaf.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 02, 2019, 12:15:54 PM
I got picked up by a Leaf taxi this morning (quite a load in Kirkcaldy), and I was quizzing the driver. He said 95% of his driving is in town, and he finds only a marginal difference between summer and winter range. He has had it for three winters now and absolutely loves it. An overnight charge lasts him a whole day's driving (about 100 miles, give or take). He says there has been no deterioration in the battery in the time he has had it. He was wondering about getting the bigger version, but his current "cab" does everything he needs, with virtually no maintenance costs.

When battery is new the Nissan algorithm initially restricts amount of battery ( when system accepts it is fully charged at 80% and fully discharged at 30% ) that is used, as the battery goes through more charge and discharge cycles the envelope is increased - this is to allow for expected battery deterioration and maintain range.  This is why an emergency reserve is available because 'empty is not really empty, there is still power in there that you do not have access to in normal usage, because regularly fully discharging the battery damages it ( as fully charging it does ). 100 miles a day for a taxi does not seem much, normal taxis owned by some company normally run at least two shifts a day, sometimes more.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 02, 2019, 01:03:22 PM
100 miles a day for a taxi does not seem much, normal taxis owned by some company normally run at least two shifts a day, sometimes more.
We are a small town, not a large city. An owner driver can run an electric taxi. An organisation such as the Police, who run their vehicles 24/7, couldn't. Fife council and NHS Fife both have large fleets of EVs as well.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on August 02, 2019, 03:00:31 PM
C and C taxis in Cornwall have their own rapid chargers I gather. I know when they retired "Wizzy" they said it had been rapid charged many times.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 07, 2019, 10:22:29 AM
The past couple of days I have been overtaken by a BMW i8 (it may possible have been the same one). What is strange is to see what, for all intent and purpose, is a Supercar, on such skinny tyres. The cannot be much wider than my Jazz.

Just looked them up. The widest tyre fitted to the i8 are 215.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 07, 2019, 07:15:12 PM
Email from Honda with the announcement: We’ll be creating hybrid and battery electric cars to achieve 100% of European sales electrified by 2025; underlining our commitment to lowering emissions for a cleaner future. The countdown has started and we look forward to exciting times ahead.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 09, 2019, 01:36:08 PM
New Peugeot e-208 looks like a well specced and reasonably priced package. Only ever owned one Peugeot. Would never have another!

https://www.zap-map.com/pricing-revealed-for-electric-peugeot-208/ (https://www.zap-map.com/pricing-revealed-for-electric-peugeot-208/)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on August 09, 2019, 02:36:29 PM
Just a little snippet on EVs in general and the Nissan Leaf in particular. It looks like tentative steps are being made towards a common charging system (or plug!) and it doesn't include Chademo, the system pioneered by the Leaf. It occurs to me that that is another reason for caution in deciding whether to get an EV at this particular point in time. I speak as somebody who bought a Betamax VCR!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 09, 2019, 03:40:09 PM
Just a little snippet on EVs in general and the Nissan Leaf in particular. It looks like tentative steps are being made towards a common charging system (or plug!) and it doesn't include Chademo, the system pioneered by the Leaf. It occurs to me that that is another reason for caution in deciding whether to get an EV at this particular point in time. I speak as somebody who bought a Betamax VCR!

Well Betamax was technically well ahead of VHS and IIRC the sound was separate channel and much easier to edit ( the production companies loved betamax and pretty much every professional camera was beta ), but didn't Sony limit the tapes to an hour or something silly like that.  In comparison  VHS was cheap and nasty and just about OK for playing back on a cheaper VHS player, sadly a case of JVC managing to get a critical mass of equipment out into public domain, so JVC won the marketing but just like microsoft with computers - they are not the best....  Didn't Philips also have system called V2000.

Early adopters do get the pain but some just like to be in the forefront, every company starts off with their own systems and try to convince people it will become the standard ( remember the bewildering amount of different phone connectors early on until it basically came down to micro-USB connector ) -  it is not only the BEV connector that needs standardizing but also the voltage and whether AC or DC.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on August 09, 2019, 05:17:06 PM
Good points. I have to say my Betamax VCR was pretty decent and better than the VHS one I eventually bought to replace it because the selection of films in my local video store was so poor.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on August 09, 2019, 05:42:50 PM
Well Betamax was technically well ahead of VHS and IIRC the sound was separate channel and much easier to edit ( the production companies loved betamax and pretty much every professional camera was beta ), but didn't Sony limit the tapes to an hour or something silly like that.  In comparison  VHS was cheap and nasty and just about OK for playing back on a cheaper VHS player, sadly a case of JVC managing to get a critical mass of equipment out into public domain, so JVC won the marketing but just like microsoft with computers - they are not the best....  Didn't Philips also have system called V2000.

Philips also had the first cassette system - the N1500 VCR system.

As you say, Sony dropped a clanger with the 1 hour recording at standard speed, but that was only on the US standard models - UK PAL standard Betamax could do 3½ hours on the later L-830 tapes. Sony's other major boob was their reluctance to license the system to any other manufacturer, while JVC was encouraging as many manufacturers as possible to use their system. By the time Sony relented and allowed other manufacturers in, it was too late.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 17, 2019, 04:48:21 PM
Didn't realise that the Scottish Government will give an interest free loan of up to £35,000, repayable over 6 years, for buying an EV, subject to certain conditions (you don't already have an EV, you are buying a new car, etc).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on August 17, 2019, 06:41:45 PM
I'm not in Scotland so not eligible for that offer but I'm slowly convincing myself that my next set of wheels will be an EV with a nominal range of 300 miles ONO (ie enough for 200 miles in adverse conditions in winter with the battery no longer at its prime). While a PHEV would probably better fit my usage pattern it would need to have a setting for me to tell it when I'm only doing a local trip so only use the battery.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on August 17, 2019, 10:39:05 PM
I'm not in Scotland so not eligible for that offer but I'm slowly convincing myself that my next set of wheels will be an EV with a nominal range of 300 miles ONO (ie enough for 200 miles in adverse conditions in winter with the battery no longer at its prime). While a PHEV would probably better fit my usage pattern it would need to have a setting for me to tell it when I'm only doing a local trip so only use the battery.

I assumed (although I don't actually know) that a PHEV would use battery only until it went flat at which point the ICE would kick in.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on August 18, 2019, 10:20:25 AM
I'm not in Scotland so not eligible for that offer but I'm slowly convincing myself that my next set of wheels will be an EV with a nominal range of 300 miles ONO (ie enough for 200 miles in adverse conditions in winter with the battery no longer at its prime). While a PHEV would probably better fit my usage pattern it would need to have a setting for me to tell it when I'm only doing a local trip so only use the battery.

I assumed (although I don't actually know) that a PHEV would use battery only until it went flat at which point the ICE would kick in.

My assumption (also completely uneducated) is that there is an infinite number of ways designers could choose to combine the power outputs of two prime movers (combustion and electric) in a hybrid car. At one extreme you could have a car that is basically an EV but also carries a generator to charge the battery when it runs down; at the other you could have an ICE car that also has a battery and motor to provide a power boost when you need it. Both are hybrids but work very differently. Manufacturers will choose their own optimum designs somewhere between those extremes to suit their perceptions of what the customer wants, and it’s highly likely they’ll all be different.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 18, 2019, 02:58:01 PM
From Wiki:

Modes of operation
A plug-in hybrid operates in charge-depleting and charge-sustaining modes. Combinations of these two modes are termed blended mode or mixed-mode. These vehicles can be designed to drive for an extended range in all-electric mode, either at low speeds only or at all speeds. These modes manage the vehicle's battery discharge strategy, and their use has a direct effect on the size and type of battery required:[104]

Charge-depleting mode allows a fully charged PHEV to operate exclusively (or depending on the vehicle, almost exclusively, except during hard acceleration) on electric power until its battery state of charge is depleted to a predetermined level, at which time the vehicle's internal combustion engine or fuel cell will be engaged. This period is the vehicle's all-electric range. This is the only mode that a battery electric vehicle can operate in, hence their limited range.[105]

Mixed mode describes a trip using a combination of multiple modes. For example, a car may begin a trip in low speed charge-depleting mode, then enter onto a freeway and operate in blended mode. The driver might exit the freeway and drive without the internal combustion engine until all-electric range is exhausted. The vehicle can revert to a charge sustaining-mode until the final destination is reached. This contrasts with a charge-depleting trip which would be driven within the limits of a PHEV's all-electric range.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on August 30, 2019, 11:08:03 AM
New Polarplus charging point popped up in local town centre car park, two spaces marked out in green. Contactless card payment. There are a few others around town, but this is the most overt - you wouldn't find the others without zapmap.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EClkAkOXsAYRQmc.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 06, 2019, 05:20:22 PM
I was over to the south of Edinburgh today and I saw 4 new 69 plate cars. Three of them were electric.
Two Nissan Leafs (should that be Leaves?) and a Tesla Model S.
There are a lot of Teslas in the Edinburgh area. I suppose it is an affluent area, with many rich business men able to afford the £1000/month lease or the £80+K purchase price.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on September 19, 2019, 08:23:53 PM
Cheap second car?

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on September 28, 2019, 04:52:39 PM
https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/299166-cops-abandon-high-speed-chase-when-their-tesla-battery-runs-down

This is why I am surprised emergency services even consider using BEV in their present state of evolution.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 28, 2019, 04:58:51 PM
You cannot blame the car because the kn*bheads put it out on the road without first charging it. ICE Police cars have run out of petrol before. And Police helicopters regularly have to call off a pursuit when they run out of fuel.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on September 28, 2019, 05:51:38 PM
You cannot blame the car because the kn*bheads put it out on the road without first charging it. ICE Police cars have run out of petrol before. And Police helicopters regularly have to call off a pursuit when they run out of fuel.

Truth is though that you can fill up an ICE car in a few minutes if fuel low, not so with a BEV - and considering the number of ICE emergency vehicles compared to BEV  then some of them are bound to run out of fuel now and then.  Emergency vehicles are used 24/7/365 with little time for charging.   To be of any use ( other than a box ticking exercise ) they need at least removeable battery packs like fork lift trucks get in industry,  then they can charge one while using another.  Another thing is that a Police ICE vehicle will get at least 500 miles per tank, compared with <200 for BEV ( as proven in real life driving ).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 28, 2019, 06:40:55 PM
Yes, I agree with all that. Someday they will work as we all want. Meantime it may require two to do the job of one. One working, one on charge. It is still the way transport is heading, like it or not.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on September 28, 2019, 07:46:48 PM
Yes, I agree with all that. Someday they will work as we all want. Meantime it may require two to do the job of one. One working, one on charge. It is still the way transport is heading, like it or not.

Surely to have one working and one charging as a 'spare' completely negates the much vaunted economic benefits of BEV, not to mention needing a lot more space, and even  the best case scenario of having twice as many batteries than vehicles is using up precious rare metal resources and proliferating noxious metal available to pollute the planet.  Given the present very high cost of BEV compared to their ICE equivalent and the cost of supplying enough power to the grid and charging points in accessible places is beginning to make the whole thing seem costly and unworkable.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 28, 2019, 08:33:54 PM
The prices are coming down all the time and they reckon the price if a BEV will fall below that of an equivalent ICE in two years time. Battery and charging technology is improving as well. Governments around the world are starting to favour electric vehicles, and, despite the difficulties, early adopters are sticking with them and enjoying the experience.
Dundee is the BEV capitol of Scotland, and a feature on the Scottish News last week was speaking to a Dundee taxi firm which now has 140 BEVs in their fleet. The owner drives a Tesla. Electric vehicles are the future. We can welcome it or be dragged kicking or screaming into it. There is no avoiding it.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on September 29, 2019, 02:44:49 PM
https://www.whatcar.com/news/electric-vehicle-charging-%E2%80%93-what-does-it-really-cost/n16833

Beware that charging costs are rising, ( as we all knew they would as more BEV were in use and people were committed ) as well as variable charging costs from charge point companies I reckon the government has a 'price per mile' running cost for vehicles in their database that is pretty much fixed,  and as BEV get more common they will levy tax on charging just like they do on fuel now - otherwise road pricing will ensure that cars are not too cheap to run - the last few years have been a honeymoon period for early adopters,  from here on in 'the only way is up'....
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 29, 2019, 02:48:24 PM
Interesting graph.

(https://news.files.bbci.co.uk/include/extra/shorthand/assets/news/DmZ6C9zSsR/assets/z3Gf36j5Ma/car-landscape-optimised.gif)

Most charging points in Scotland are free to use, so the only way the prices will go are up.

https://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/scotland/businesses-organisations/transport/electric-vehicles-chargeplace-scotland (https://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/scotland/businesses-organisations/transport/electric-vehicles-chargeplace-scotland)

https://chargeplacescotland.org/ (https://chargeplacescotland.org/)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 29, 2019, 03:02:42 PM
Vauxhall Corsa-e looks nice. Mind you the top model will set you back almost £34K.

https://www.vauxhall.co.uk/cars/new-corsa-e/overview.html?ppc=GOOGLE_700000001931902_71700000053265006_58700005125832113_p44982205953&_vsrefdom=mca&gclid=Cj0KCQjwrMHsBRCIARIsAFgSeI2OZqdSy3DwqIz9feKBQrwt3pi5aF7GlHWREYi0Om35zLuAa5wxWuMaAr52EALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds (https://www.vauxhall.co.uk/cars/new-corsa-e/overview.html?ppc=GOOGLE_700000001931902_71700000053265006_58700005125832113_p44982205953&_vsrefdom=mca&gclid=Cj0KCQjwrMHsBRCIARIsAFgSeI2OZqdSy3DwqIz9feKBQrwt3pi5aF7GlHWREYi0Om35zLuAa5wxWuMaAr52EALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on September 29, 2019, 06:14:15 PM
https://www.whatcar.com/news/electric-vehicle-charging-%E2%80%93-what-does-it-really-cost/n16833

Beware that charging costs are rising, ( as we all knew they would as more BEV were in use and people were committed ) as well as variable charging costs from charge point companies I reckon the government has a 'price per mile' running cost for vehicles in their database that is pretty much fixed,  and as BEV get more common they will levy tax on charging just like they do on fuel now - otherwise road pricing will ensure that cars are not too cheap to run - the last few years have been a honeymoon period for early adopters,  from here on in 'the only way is up'....

If charhing from home, tehy woudl require a smart meter to tell them usage is for vehicle recharging..
We have a smart meter - it does not work with our current supplier and the whole UK installations is a shambles..overbudget and still installing Mark1 meters unreadbale by many suppliers...
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest4871 on September 29, 2019, 06:59:38 PM
Vauxhall Corsa-e looks nice. Mind you the top model will set you back almost £34K.

https://www.vauxhall.co.uk/cars/new-corsa-e/overview.html?ppc=GOOGLE_700000001931902_71700000053265006_58700005125832113_p44982205953&_vsrefdom=mca&gclid=Cj0KCQjwrMHsBRCIARIsAFgSeI2OZqdSy3DwqIz9feKBQrwt3pi5aF7GlHWREYi0Om35zLuAa5wxWuMaAr52EALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds (https://www.vauxhall.co.uk/cars/new-corsa-e/overview.html?ppc=GOOGLE_700000001931902_71700000053265006_58700005125832113_p44982205953&_vsrefdom=mca&gclid=Cj0KCQjwrMHsBRCIARIsAFgSeI2OZqdSy3DwqIz9feKBQrwt3pi5aF7GlHWREYi0Om35zLuAa5wxWuMaAr52EALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds)

A silent car accelerating in 2.8 seconds to 30 mph scares me witless.  :o
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kenneve on September 29, 2019, 09:15:16 PM
Something that hasn't really been discussed is the time taken to charge the battery.
A lot has been said about fast charging, perhaps in as little as 1/2 hour, but this can only be done at dedicated external chargers, like those situated in motorway services et al.

Fast charging is simply not possible at home, since the average domestic property has an incoming current limit of 100 amps, or 25 Kw

I'm not exactly sure what the capacity of the average EV battery is, but I guess a lot more than 25Kw, hence it could take perhaps several hours to fully charge, even assuming no power was used elsewhere in the house.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on September 29, 2019, 10:27:16 PM
If charhing from home, tehy woudl require a smart meter to tell them usage is for vehicle recharging..
We have a smart meter - it does not work with our current supplier and the whole UK installations is a shambles..overbudget and still installing Mark1 meters unreadbale by many suppliers...

Even if your smart meter was working, there's no way it can tell what you're using the electricity for. The breakdowns they give you for usage are based on average usage patterns.


I'm not exactly sure what the capacity of the average EV battery is, but I guess a lot more than 25Kw, hence it could take perhaps several hours to fully charge, even assuming no power was used elsewhere in the house.

The best strategy for home charging has to be overnight on economy 7.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 29, 2019, 11:02:33 PM
The best strategy for home charging has to be overnight on economy 7.
Without a doubt. I don't imagine many BEV owners, with home charging facilities, would do anything other than a slow overnight charge.
Kenneve: The Corsa has a 50 kWh battery. It says, "Use a home wallbox (7kW) and you can get a full charge in 7.5 hours.". What it doesn't say is, many EVs allow you to set a timer so that the heating comes on after the charge is finished, so the car can be lovely and warm before you get in it. From the house mains.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on September 30, 2019, 08:26:35 AM
It will be so easy for government to mandate that all EV get a chip fitted that will communicate with smart meter ( which will also become mandatory if you want to charge an EV at home ) and hike the rate for charging,  or maybe all electricity users will have to pay more to subsidise EV users ( which will be a travesty ) - road pricing would seem to be the most straightforward way for government to keep getting money from their favourite cash-cow, the motorist.

Electricity has now become a 'fuel' for propelling cars and other vehicles and as such they will find a way to put a levy / tax on it.

The other thing is that economy 7 was introduced because conventional power stations could not just be turned on and off and had to be kept running when there was little demand at night so it made sense to encourage people to use power at night for things like storage heaters, washing etc.,  but with the advent of gas turbine powered stations, solar and wind ( wind normally drops at night ) - this means economy 7 will undoubtedly be phased out as there is no economic sense to continue with it - especially if the night time demand rockets due to BEV owners using power.....
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 30, 2019, 08:35:51 AM
I am sure they will. If the tax is on the electricity then you need to fit solar panels and battery storage. If it is road pricing then that is fair and something I have advocated for a number of years. Or they may load petrol and diesel, as they have done tobacco and get money from the less well off who cannot afford a BEV, as the government does with every other tax and incentive.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on September 30, 2019, 09:20:15 AM
It will be so easy for government to mandate that all EV get a chip fitted that will communicate with smart meter ( which will also become mandatory if you want to charge an EV at home ) and hike the rate for charging

Whilst that would be technically feasible, I would think the ease with which it could be defeated would make it a non starter. It would also require the replacement of every smart meter currently in use. The ones we have now are not really that 'smart', their function is primarily to relay metering data back to the supplier.

I agree though, Government is not going to let go of tax revenue currently levied on road fuels.
.

with the advent of gas turbine powered stations, solar and wind ( wind normally drops at night ) - this means economy 7 will undoubtedly be phased out as there is no economic sense to continue with it.

That's not strictly true. Whilst wind does indeed peak (on average) in the afternoon at ground level, at higher levels (200m) it peaks between midnight and sunrise.

At 80m, the height of most large scale turbines, wind speed is spread more or less evenly throughout the 24 hours.

https://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/full/10.1175/JCLI-D-13-00286.1
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on September 30, 2019, 09:54:59 AM
https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/renewable-energy-meets-power-grid-operations/

The grid has always been complicated,  but at least there were reliable sources of power connected to it that could guarantee supply,  when renewables were a small part of the supply it didn't really matter if they were producing or not,  but with more and more renewables being used and more and more reliable power stations decommissioned, and a exponential rise in demand to charge EV the whole thing is getting scary....

Here is a quote from an American site discussing power generation needed for evolving BEV usage in USA.

I clearly have less respect for Tesla, for at the grid level they've done little to ease our pain. At least in North America In order of concern:

1) THE GRID ISN'T AS CLEAN AS EVERYBODY SAYS. To use California as example, which claims to have "half" it's energy coming from renewables (what they leave out is that this is only for brief periods on certain sunny days), the truth about California is much harsher- due to years of drought and a trend toward closure of all the extant nuclear plants, California relies heavily on fossil fuels at night... and all you guys seem to want to "charge at night when power costs less". The reality is that some nights CA exceeds 80% fossil fuel on the grid. Night grid carbon is UP substantially in the last 15 years... and it will continue to climb as nuclear units close and CA builds massive new natural gas power plants.


And the "hard to predict" isn"t just an understatement, but also the system is currently rigged in favor of renewables. When that math is used for a new solar plant it nullifies the calculation that justified building a conventional plant 40 years ago. That's in part why nuclear plants are closing and low capital cost fossil fuel (natural gas) plants are growing; their math is less affected by that slanted and unstable playing field. But at some point, whether policy makers choose to deal with it or not, that tilted playing field will start affecting solar. At that point, someone will build a new solar plant that causes other solar plants to have to curtail production on their best days. That's when solar implementation hits the ceiling.


Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinS on September 30, 2019, 10:41:25 AM
To use California as example, which claims to have "half" it's energy coming from renewables (what they leave out is that this is only for brief periods on certain sunny days), the truth about California is much harsher- due to years of drought and a trend toward closure of all the extant nuclear plants, California relies heavily on fossil fuels at night... and all you guys seem to want to "charge at night when power costs less". The reality is that some nights CA exceeds 80% fossil fuel on the grid. Night grid carbon is UP substantially in the last 15 years... and it will continue to climb as nuclear units close and CA builds massive new natural gas power plants.
Pretty irrelevant now as President Trump will have them all back on coal powered generation soon :o
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on September 30, 2019, 12:01:29 PM
To use California as example, which claims to have "half" it's energy coming from renewables (what they leave out is that this is only for brief periods on certain sunny days), the truth about California is much harsher- due to years of drought and a trend toward closure of all the extant nuclear plants, California relies heavily on fossil fuels at night... and all you guys seem to want to "charge at night when power costs less". The reality is that some nights CA exceeds 80% fossil fuel on the grid. Night grid carbon is UP substantially in the last 15 years... and it will continue to climb as nuclear units close and CA builds massive new natural gas power plants.
Pretty irrelevant now as President Trump will have them all back on coal powered generation soon :o


US exeprience is irreleavant. We pay green energy producers to produce when not needed and non green to produce when not needed as backup..
If we did not, no-one would invest and we would have no power at night...

I use Gridwatch and on cold winless days there is near zero solar wnd wind power...
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on September 30, 2019, 12:33:16 PM
US exeprience is irreleavant. We pay green energy producers to produce when not needed and non green to produce when not needed as backup..
If we did not, no-one would invest and we would have no power at night...

I use Gridwatch and on cold winless days there is near zero solar wnd wind power...

I agree about gridwatch and the absence of renewables when you need them most  :o

That explains why USA has some of the cheapest electrical power ( half the price of UK ) and UK some of the most expensive... all the most expensive countries are in Europe - is this a coincidence ?  The USA article does say that suppliers are paid to not produce ( although at a lower rate ) and renewables still make money because of subsidies, but it can be hard on conventional generators who supply the base demand, remember the very lucrative 'feed in' tariffs offered to households with solar panels a few years ago - that was expensive for taxpayers and end users ( who at the end of the day have to pay the bills ).

https://www.statista.com/statistics/263492/electricity-prices-in-selected-countries/
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 30, 2019, 02:33:56 PM
Tidal is the way it is heading, particularly here in Scotland, with more and bigger prototype units, aided by government funding, being connected to the grid.
And Scotland currently has enough wind power capacity to power two Scotlands.

https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/scotland-wind-power-on-shore-renewable-energy-climate-change-uk-a9013066.html (https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/scotland-wind-power-on-shore-renewable-energy-climate-change-uk-a9013066.html)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on September 30, 2019, 04:26:57 PM
To use California as example, which claims to have "half" it's energy coming from renewables (what they leave out is that this is only for brief periods on certain sunny days), the truth about California is much harsher- due to years of drought and a trend toward closure of all the extant nuclear plants, California relies heavily on fossil fuels at night... and all you guys seem to want to "charge at night when power costs less". The reality is that some nights CA exceeds 80% fossil fuel on the grid. Night grid carbon is UP substantially in the last 15 years... and it will continue to climb as nuclear units close and CA builds massive new natural gas power plants.
Pretty irrelevant now as President Trump will have them all back on coal powered generation soon :o
As often the case, he didn't do his homework before making the utterance. I was recently reading that in the windier states the cost of wind energy is making it very competitive while there's also plenty of natural gas which is more efficient (in combined cycle plants) and cleaner.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on October 04, 2019, 05:21:25 PM


Whilst that would be technically feasible, I would think the ease with which it could be defeated would make it a non starter. It would also require the replacement of every smart meter currently in use. The ones we have now are not really that 'smart', their function is primarily to relay metering data back to the supplier.


We're gonna need  a  smarter Smart Meter.

https://iberdrola.ft.com/smart-meters-will-help-electric-vehicles-move-into-the-mainstream?utm_source=FB&utm_medium=publishers_financial&utm_content=static&fbclid=IwAR1f3W64HOEsBgS_BO7kcBIi24Lpws_OicObxkcSihKAZ4GglyHJHwyVHfU
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 04, 2019, 05:38:44 PM


Whilst that would be technically feasible, I would think the ease with which it could be defeated would make it a non starter. It would also require the replacement of every smart meter currently in use. The ones we have now are not really that 'smart', their function is primarily to relay metering data back to the supplier.


We're gonna need  a  smarter Smart Meter.

https://iberdrola.ft.com/smart-meters-will-help-electric-vehicles-move-into-the-mainstream?utm_source=FB&utm_medium=publishers_financial&utm_content=static&fbclid=IwAR1f3W64HOEsBgS_BO7kcBIi24Lpws_OicObxkcSihKAZ4GglyHJHwyVHfU

Quote from article above...

However, while V2G looks promising from the network point of view, it’s not clear that car owners will be so keen. “I am sceptical,” says Peter Mock from ICCT. “The downside of charging and discharging batteries all the time is that it runs them down more quickly, which outweighs the advantage of selling the power. Stopping cars charging at peak time would work, though, if prices can be structured in such a way to encourage consumers to change their behaviour.”

It used to be that once a meter was installed it would be in place working reliably for decades,  now because of the dumb way the smart meters have been rolled out I can see you having to get a new meter installed every few years to catch up with all the features they want to use... ( bit like they expect you to get a new phone every couple of years ) I can also see smart meter being used to remotely stop water being heated and cars being charged to control the load on the grid.   And what about the base load nuclear stations we are going to need to back up the variable unreliable renewables, last I heard they were all on hold, half built and not getting finished any time soon...

As you can see from slightly earlier in this thread, California which claims to be the greenest place on Earth has lots of sun and wind and claim to get a large part of their power from renewables,  but once the sun goes down they get 80% of their power from gas fired power stations - and if BEV ever fully take off there they will really have a power problem.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on October 04, 2019, 08:23:45 PM

As you can see from slightly earlier in this thread, California which claims to be the greenest place on Earth has lots of sun and wind and claim to get a large part of their power from renewables,  but once the sun goes down they get 80% of their power from gas fired power stations - and if BEV ever fully take off there they will really have a power problem.

We're gonna need a bigger battery.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 10, 2019, 05:57:02 PM
Dyson has dropped their electric car project stating it was not commercially viable. I would imagine Lucid, Bollinger and several others are finding the same, but just don't have the business acumen to jump ship, as Sir James Dyson has done.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50004184 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50004184)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 10, 2019, 07:07:56 PM
I wonder why Dyson even considered making an electric car after watching Tesla burn cash - and with players like VW JLR and the big boys who have been making cars for ever and can't make it profitable yet.  Stick to moving air around Mr Dyson, at least the big car boys won't be making vacuum cleaners and hand dryers anytime soon.....
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on October 11, 2019, 08:45:00 AM
He probably didn't anticipate the speed at which the main vehicle manufacturers have jumped onto the EV waggon. However, Dyson might recover some of the R&D money by licencing of its EV-related patents.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 17, 2019, 07:04:15 PM
That is Uniti UK taking orders for their Uniti One all electric city car. Starting from £15,100 up to £23,845 for the top model, which with its bigger battery has 180 mile range, 10 minutes for a 60 mile charge, and includes heated seats, air con and LED lighting. It is only a small 3 seater, but most city journeys are driver only so it will fill a niche. Designed in Sweden they are to be built in the UK. Available next year.
I would have one.

(https://www.autocar.co.uk/sites/autocar.co.uk/files/styles/gallery_slide/public/images/car-reviews/first-drives/legacy/uniti-one-3-colour-palette.jpg?itok=PGbl-HND)

https://www.uniti.earth/uk/uniti-one/ (https://www.uniti.earth/uk/uniti-one/)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on October 18, 2019, 08:36:37 AM
I looked through the specs and +£750 for LED headlights is excessively greedy. I wouldn't expect any EV to be offered with halogen lights given that these are an unnecessary drain on the batttery and I wonder if the heater is a simple electric heater or a more expensive but much more energy efficient heat pump. I also don't like the choice of three shades of tarmac grey but, for urban commuters, shoppers and the school run this is a functional and relatively affordable EV.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on October 18, 2019, 11:45:16 AM
I'd still go for one of the cheap Renault City K-ZE things, if the £8k price translated to something similar in the UK... though I know that won't happen.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 18, 2019, 01:46:37 PM
I'd go for a tiny 2 seat EV to sit alongside the Jazz. If I had a lawn I'd park it on that!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 18, 2019, 01:57:44 PM
I'd still go for one of the cheap Renault City K-ZE things, if the £8k price translated to something similar in the UK... though I know that won't happen.
Nearest Chinese equivalent, here in the UK, is the MG ZS EV, at £21,995.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 18, 2019, 02:22:51 PM
Just received an email fro Honda prompting me to order my Honda e. In the blurb is this piece:

"Electric range figures may not reflect real life driving results, which will depend upon a number of factors including the starting charge of the battery, accessories fitted (post-registration), variations in weather, driving styles and vehicle load. Power, emissions, fuel consumption and range data are preliminary data only and may not reflect the official (or final) figures for the production vehicle. This data is provided for information only and you should not rely on it for comparability or other purposes."
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on October 18, 2019, 03:16:43 PM
I'd still go for one of the cheap Renault City K-ZE things, if the £8k price translated to something similar in the UK... though I know that won't happen.
Nearest Chinese equivalent, here in the UK, is the MG ZS EV, at £21,995.

The MG is much more of a real family car, and bigger than the Renault. The Chinese Renault is a bare bones EV with limited range and top speed, but looks okay to me as a daily driver around town - especially at that price.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 20, 2019, 03:58:08 PM
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7592485/Father-eight-invents-electric-car-battery-drivers-1-500-miles-without-charging-it.html

Hydrogen / aluminium fuel cell
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 20, 2019, 04:13:17 PM
Sounds great. If it is successful the motor industry will sh!t a brick. Wonder how much a change would cost. And whether the driver will be able to change it or need a technician to do it.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 20, 2019, 04:19:27 PM
Funny only the Mail has the story. Aluminium - Air cells are not new. It would appear that the secret here is a new electrolyte.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium%E2%80%93air_battery (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium%E2%80%93air_battery)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 22, 2019, 09:23:33 AM
It would appear the government are looking at green, or green tagged number plates, for electric cars, with a view to allowing cheaper parking, bus lane use, and other incentives for motorists to change to electric vehicles. Hope they are better policed than the current dodgy number plates or we will all be getting green ones!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50122268 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50122268)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on October 22, 2019, 09:39:22 AM
Don't buy an Audi EV if this long term test is typical:
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/audi/e-tron/long-term-reviews/audi-e-tron-55-quattro-2019-long-term-review
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 22, 2019, 09:56:11 AM
It is hardly a damming report of the EV aspects. The adaptive cruise control issue seems to relate to other Audis, not just EVs. And Those four days of E-tron deprivation made me realise just how much I prefer driving EVs these days – especially one as comfortable and refined as the big Audi. While I’ll never turn down a chance to drive something particularly exciting, such as a Porsche 911 GT3, most conventionally powered cars feel like dinosaurs in comparison with the E-tron. says a lot from a guy who drives cars for a living.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on October 22, 2019, 10:12:15 AM
Don't buy an Audi EV if this long term test is typical:
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/audi/e-tron/long-term-reviews/audi-e-tron-55-quattro-2019-long-term-review

I tend to buy cars which are out of warranty, and the complexity of some of these modern vehicles, both ICE and electric, is seriously scary. Couple that with the current VAG reliability problems, and you're in trouble.

I wonder what all this technological advancement will mean for longer term residuals. Imagine battling these sorts of issues as these cars get to 5-10 years old, some of those warranty claims in the review will have been seriously expensive.

I might have ended up on the bus... if they hadn't cut the service we have down to zero.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 22, 2019, 10:28:01 AM
I seriously think that the 'repair' of EV will come down to the replacement of big chunks rather than component level repairs.  'Sorry mate' your inverter is FUBAR,  need to replace it, that will be £10,000 please' - 'sorry mate the regen module has failed,  £8,000 please'.... ' you need a replacement battery, we have some repaired ones that have had the known bad cells replaced but there could still be some cells in there that may fail soon'...  If we are lucky we will get some money back for the old parts - like a service exchange scheme, but don't hold your breath. 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on October 22, 2019, 11:13:10 AM
The good news: lots of EVs will be broken for parts...

Prius hybrid inverters on ebay  £120 to £250...
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on October 22, 2019, 02:03:24 PM
it's not just the cost of parts, replacing (and re-programming) parts is sometimes a technological feat in itself these days. Without the required diagnostic tools, you are completely dead in the water.

It reminds of one of the first times I came across this issue with a Renault hand brake motor which has to be programmed to the car. It's only one time programmable, so mechanically good used parts were useless. Now, we can replace the surface mount eprom inside the box with a new eprom programmed with blank coded firmware, but what a palaver.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on October 23, 2019, 07:55:47 AM
Don't buy an Audi EV if this long term test is typical:
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/audi/e-tron/long-term-reviews/audi-e-tron-55-quattro-2019-long-term-review

I tend to buy cars which are out of warranty, and the complexity of some of these modern vehicles, both ICE and electric, is seriously scary. Couple that with the current VAG reliability problems, and you're in trouble.

I wonder what all this technological advancement will mean for longer term residuals. Imagine battling these sorts of issues as these cars get to 5-10 years old, some of those warranty claims in the review will have been seriously expensive.

I might have ended up on the bus... if they hadn't cut the service we have down to zero.

The future is leasing and short term rental. It’s a way off though and the journey from here to there is not an easy one. I must admit, as my car has two years of its 5 year warranty remaining, I am wondering what’s next. The first test will be Toyota’s response to my TPMS valve spontaneously breaking in half giving me an instant flat. I see this as a warranty replacement. Simple. If they see it as a £100 spare then we may be parting ways earlier than 8 had planned.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 23, 2019, 08:15:43 AM
Government is looking at making Leasing less attractive to dealers and preventing the motorist getting ripped off. Wonder just what the future of private leasing is.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 24, 2019, 07:32:04 AM
Tesla stock jumps on a surprise quarterly profit. This seems to be down to manufacturing at its Shanghai factory being ahead of schedule.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-results/tesla-posts-surprise-quarterly-profit-on-record-deliveries-shares-jump-idUSKBN1X22MZ (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-results/tesla-posts-surprise-quarterly-profit-on-record-deliveries-shares-jump-idUSKBN1X22MZ)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50159963 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50159963)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 24, 2019, 11:28:03 AM
Couple of snippets I've seen recently.

1) An article in the business section of the "i" arguing that China was making huge strides in the development of EVs and battery production. The author predicted that the effects of this, long term, might be more significant than Brexit. Seemed to think that UK and European car production may end in time.

2) Government proposals to issue EVs with green number plates which would allow them access to bus lanes and free parking in certain places.

Oh, and to round things off, just seen an electric ambulance in Warrington. Probably more of a paramedic vehicle - based on the BMW EV (the i3 I think).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 24, 2019, 11:38:25 AM
China is so committed to EVs and EV production that I am sure they will become the dominant manufacturing base for the future. I don't really fancy a Chinese made car, but 40 years ago I wouldn't have considered a Japanese made car.
And lets face it, Dacia cars sell well here!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 24, 2019, 04:19:42 PM
Who says electric cars are not for everyone?

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on October 24, 2019, 07:03:44 PM
I don't really fancy a Chinese made car

I would have thought the same, but it's too late now!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on October 25, 2019, 02:16:59 PM
One of my oldest friends is a Professor at the University of Warwick, specialising in power electronics. For some years now he has been working across the motor industry on the power systems required by electric vehicles.

A while back I asked him why you couldn't put electric motors in the wheels and then retrofit these to existing vehicles and replace the engine and gearbox with a battery array. He told me that was already being worked on.

Well here we go... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49958457

So now we have a vehicle with vastly improved battery storage, advanced power electronics and in wheel motors. It needs no drive shafts so the wheels can rotate around a pivot and the car can drive sideways or rotate on the spot.

It is this 'perfect storm' of technological advances that needs to be matched by similarly creative thinking in ownership models, charging point availability, autonomous capability and taxation.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 25, 2019, 04:34:11 PM
I don't really fancy a Chinese made car

I would have thought the same, but it's too late now!

Their cars may be OK but their human rights, trouble making around the globe, and their attitude to Taiwan kinda put me off Chinese stuff.. If I see 'Made in PRC' or 'made in China' on the packaging it goes back on the shelf.  but sometimes it is printed so small as to be almost invisible - and very often the name on the packaging is a well known UK or global company.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on October 25, 2019, 05:10:32 PM
A while back I asked him why you couldn't put electric motors in the wheels and then retrofit these to existing vehicles and replace the engine and gearbox with a battery array. He told me that was already being worked on.
I've often wondered why hybrids and EVs don't have low power motors as a traction aid in the two wheels which aren't normally driven. Even 2HP per wheel would help get / keep a vehicle moving in mud/snow/ice but avoids creating a lot of extra unsprung weight which impairs the ride quality.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 25, 2019, 05:24:25 PM
In-wheel motors are exceptionally expensive at present but that will soon change as the technology and manufacturing improvements bring the price down.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on October 25, 2019, 05:46:14 PM
I don't really fancy a Chinese made car

I would have thought the same, but it's too late now!

Their cars may be OK but their human rights, trouble making around the globe, and their attitude to Taiwan kinda put me off Chinese stuff.

I was a bit surprised to see "Honda Motor China" on the VIN plate, to be fair. I never bought a Chinese car on purpose.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on October 26, 2019, 03:12:25 AM
In-wheel motors are exceptionally expensive at present but that will soon change as the technology and manufacturing improvements bring the price down.
I guess the BBC could have just written this instead of the whole article I linked to &#128521;&#129300;&#128077;
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on October 26, 2019, 03:14:41 AM
A while back I asked him why you couldn't put electric motors in the wheels and then retrofit these to existing vehicles and replace the engine and gearbox with a battery array. He told me that was already being worked on.
I've often wondered why hybrids and EVs don't have low power motors as a traction aid in the two wheels which aren't normally driven. Even 2HP per wheel would help get / keep a vehicle moving in mud/snow/ice but avoids creating a lot of extra unsprung weight which impairs the ride quality.

My RAV4 Hybrid has almost exactly that. As well as the high power motor on the front axle, a lower power electric motor drives just the rear wheels as and when needed, making it All Wheel Drive.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on October 26, 2019, 04:28:08 PM
My RAV4 Hybrid has almost exactly that. As well as the high power motor on the front axle, a lower power electric motor drives just the rear wheels as and when needed, making it All Wheel Drive.
I'm suggesting going one step further and replace the central motor and the shaft linking linking it to the wheels by an even smaller motor in each hub. That should free up more space for people, baggage and, maybe, batteries.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on October 26, 2019, 04:53:44 PM
My RAV4 Hybrid has almost exactly that. As well as the high power motor on the front axle, a lower power electric motor drives just the rear wheels as and when needed, making it All Wheel Drive.
I'm suggesting going one step further and replace the central motor and the shaft linking linking it to the wheels by an even smaller motor in each hub. That should free up more space for people, baggage and, maybe, batteries.
Ah, well in that case you should read the BBC news story I linked to earlier, which describes exactly that.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 01, 2019, 04:50:39 PM
An Edinburgh firm has just taken delivery of the UK's first electric mobile crane.

(https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/images-e.jpimedia.uk/imagefetch/http://www.scotsman.com/webimage/Prestige.Item.1.81251537!image/image.jpg?crop=982:524,smart&width=640)

It is a hybrid, but can be driven into a city under electric power, then run off the mains. Great idea.

https://www.spieringscranes.com/en/kranen/sk487-at3/ (https://www.spieringscranes.com/en/kranen/sk487-at3/)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 01, 2019, 08:11:33 PM
Brilliant video.


It has an 85 kWh battery which gives a 30 km range at 50 kph
It has greater power and torque driven off the battery than by its John Deere diesel engine.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: 123Drive! on November 01, 2019, 10:11:28 PM
China is so committed to EVs and EV production that I am sure they will become the dominant manufacturing base for the future. I don't really fancy a Chinese made car, but 40 years ago I wouldn't have considered a Japanese made car.
And lets face it, Dacia cars sell well here!

My sister just brought the MG ZS EV. Great value. Let's hope the Chinese can bring the price down for EV. It's always nice to see another country bringing in something good value to keep prices intact. Japanese did it in the 80's, Korean in the 90's and Romanian in 2010. China makes many goods now so I think they can make cars alright.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 01, 2019, 11:35:23 PM
I am sure they will if they put their minds to it.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 18, 2019, 04:17:28 PM
Ford have announced their all electric car, the Mustang Mach E (more than a passing resemblance to the Tesla Model 3).

Ford
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/F387/production/_109734326_bf719441-85d2-4e17-89d1-90f62e4028aa.jpg)

Tesla
(https://electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2018/07/Model-3-Performance-Red-Turn-e1540375321258.jpg?quality=82&strip=all&w=1600)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-50460241 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-50460241)

https://www.ford.co.uk/cars/mustang-mach-e (https://www.ford.co.uk/cars/mustang-mach-e)

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on November 19, 2019, 08:36:07 AM
Since when did a Mustang look like a family car. They should call it the Dobbin.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 22, 2019, 10:40:42 AM
See the new Tesla "truck" (pick up for us with a command of the English language), is straight out of Mad Max!

(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/FDA0/production/_109782946_whatsubject.jpg)

It had an embarrassing launch which has been well published.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-50513294 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-50513294)

Probably, as it was a launch vehicle, the "bulletproof" glass was only fitted to one side, and some media guy thought it would look better facing the other side on stage!

At a starting price of $40,000 it will probably sell in its homeland.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on November 22, 2019, 06:25:04 PM
Not very aerodynamic (and hence more expensive to run), but that might not worry potential purchasers. There also looks to be limited headroom in the back seat which might be of greater concern.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 24, 2019, 12:49:54 PM
See the Tesla truck has almost 150,000 orders already, despite the window issue.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50536200 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50536200)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 24, 2019, 01:04:28 PM
There also looks to be limited headroom in the back seat which might be of greater concern.
I have been watching other videos of this, and it is huge! Typical Yank truck, Headroom in the front is 2ft+ so I imagine there is tons of headroom in the rear.

(https://www.automobilemag.com/uploads/sites/11/2019/11/Tesla-Cybertruck-Electric-Pickup-Truck-Interior-Rear-Seats.jpg?fit=around%7C480:270)

And aero concerns:
It almost looks like a deliberate, suicidal attempt to trigger boundary separation—a potential drag-raising catastrophe for limited-energy EVs. And an odd 180 turn from the Model X and Y, which have such delicately arched profiles precisely to avoid drag-raising trip wires like this.
Tesla might have erased the problem with active suction to bend the boundary-layer downward just aft of that peak. Gordon Murray's McLaren F1 used this trick, and SpaceX has plenty of expertise in active measures to manipulate airflow around its re-entering Falcon 9 first stages. However, with the bed cover deployed, the angle of its vast descending surface is evidently shallow enough for the flow to naturally reattach. The benefit being that it harvests a useful fraction of the air pressure that blocky, open-bed trucks almost entirely forfeit. Actually, the tougher aerodynamic trick has been coaxing the temperamental flow around those sharp A-pillars.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on December 19, 2019, 01:41:05 PM
https://www.vwfsfleet.co.uk/electric-vs-petrol-car-advisor/

This "tool" appeared on my Facebook page. It asks a number of questions and then determines if an EV is the right car for you.

I did it and it said that a petrol car was best for my circumstances. Obviously it's geared to VW's current crop of EVs. My pal did it (he has an EV) and it said he was suitable for an EV.

Comparing notes the difference between us was that he had access to an ICE car for longer trips (I wouldn't) and he does a bigger mileage - 12,000 per annum as opposed to my 3,000 (and that's max). The savings for me would be not worth having. That said, if I lived in the London Congestion Zone...................
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 19, 2019, 02:33:57 PM
For me it says EV - Yes, PHEV - Yes, Diesel - No, Petrol - Maybe.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 28, 2019, 11:23:17 PM
I was talking to Jeangenie this morning and she is loving her new Leaf, She has done almost 15,000 miles with it, and all she has had to pay for is screen wash fluid. She is able to charge it, for free, at her work, and has never needed to use her home charger. She says it is a joy to drive. She says that once you get used to the one pedal operation you hardly ever need to touch the brake pedal at all.
I asked her what range she gets but she has no idea. It has never been so low that she has felt concerned.
Her husband is enjoying the Type R, but he too is impressed with the EV and intends replacing the Type R with an EV of some sort. A Tesla is his current first choice, but he realises that a lot will change over the next two years so he will see what is out there in 2022, when the Type R is due to be replaced.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on December 29, 2019, 11:35:56 AM
Other half is finally coming round to the idea of electric, I think she is half regretting not looking for a used Leaf instead of the Jazz. The range of a used battery would easily cope with the vast majority of our local driving, and could have been charged at home on economy 7.

We always have the big diesel for longer journeys.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on December 29, 2019, 01:10:36 PM
The EV thing is an itch with me that won't go away. I keep coming back to it. We are now on the 29th of December and I last refuelled on the 3rd. In the intervening 26 days I have done 79 miles in total. The longest trip I did was a 16 mile round trip to a garden centre (not to buy gardening stuff!)

Clearly, even an old Nissan Leaf with a degraded battery would cover all the trips in the last month. I then started looking at longer trips I have done this year.

1) 800 miles on a week's holiday in Scotland.
2) A 110 mile return trip to Abergele in North Wales.
3) 5 seventy mile round trips to a sporting venue.

Taking 1) first. I might have hired an ICE car for this. 2) This is just outside the range of any EV I could buy. 3) These would be in range assuming a 30 Kwh car - a Leaf for example.

I've more or less decided I would not use the laughably inadequate public charging network in any circumstance having seen my mate fiddle with this and with regular checks on zap-map which show that around 50% of chargers are broken at any one time. You simply can't rely on it. OK, most times you'll be OK but my Leaf driving pal has admitted, under fierce interrogation, that he has had to be "flatbedded" as EV users say when stranded in Snowdonia.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on December 29, 2019, 02:13:54 PM
Clearly, even an old Nissan Leaf with a degraded battery would cover all the trips in the last month. I then started looking at longer trips I have done this year.

I agree. The shorter range EVs are just not practical for journeys greater than a single charge. The bigger EVs, like the Tesla with their vastly superior range and network of motorway superchargers, is a different matter with a bit of light forethought.

As a second car, an EV works really well. As a main vehicle, we're some way away yet.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 29, 2019, 04:17:29 PM
Once I move over to Danderhall (where I will have a home charger). my longest trip will be 70 miles in a day. So once the move is made, an EV is on the cards.
Peteo48: a PHEV would be the car for you.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 30, 2019, 07:32:08 AM
That's Tesla delivered its first 'Made in China' cars. Only a year after starting to build the factory. Amazing what you can get done when "Health and Safety" are not requiring a method statement for every thing you do.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 30, 2019, 09:46:44 AM
That's Tesla delivered its first 'Made in China' cars. Only a year after starting to build the factory. Amazing what you can get done when "Health and Safety" are not requiring a method statement for every thing you do.

Yup, western countries have shot themselves in the foot on the productivity front ( and I am sure they did a RAMs risk assessment method statement ) - and all that paperwork adds to cost of western goods......
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 30, 2019, 09:37:13 PM
https://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/article/electric_vehicle_ev

Article about EV batteries and lower down in the article it says ' actual range is normally 65% of claimed range' - also shows how the system initially ( with new battery ) limits the amount of charge and discharge to preserve battery life ( limited to area from 30% to 80% charged ),  and as the battery ages it has to allow higher charge and lower discharge levels to maintain range,  but at the cost of degrading the battery more quickly... so it is a bit of a vicious circle as battery ages, the older it gets the quicker the degradation happens - and regular fast charging kills the batteries.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 10, 2020, 07:59:15 AM
That is First Glasgow introduced its first two all electric buses on commercial routes.

(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/17A2F/production/_110451869_bus1.jpg)

Glasgow used electric trolley buses up until 1967.

(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/E1D7/production/_110451875_trolley.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on January 10, 2020, 08:43:07 AM
Glasgow used electric trolley buses up until 1967.

(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/E1D7/production/_110451875_trolley.jpg)

Look almost identical to the later Rotherham Corporation trolleybuses, although they also had a lot of single deckers with enormous pantographs.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on January 11, 2020, 09:41:37 PM
Bring back the trolleybuses https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-51034523 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-51034523)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 19, 2020, 11:33:38 AM
Watched a superb Fully Charged video this morning. It is the first in a series about choosing, driving and living with an Electric car. My wife watched it and found it very informative. I started getting the "Can we get one?" questions.
It is a bit sexist, as it is a woman presenter choosing the car (and despite being a BAFTA presenter she has an annoying habit of looking at the main camera), but well worth a look.
It is the first in a series of six but unfortunately we will have to wait until the second in the series is uploaded.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on January 19, 2020, 08:48:02 PM
My desire to own an EV just won't go away. One thing that drives me mad is that I could easily manage with a car with a range of 50 to 60 miles apart from these odd trips. I'm basing my entire motoring life on the fact that a few times a year I might have to do 100 miles. My mate, who has a 2014 Leaf, went down to South Wales last year and he just hired an ICE car for a week.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on January 19, 2020, 08:58:02 PM
BEV make a good second car,  but at a price that is more than most peoples first car costs - let early adopters take the pain and low residuals and for the market to sort itself out and come up with sensible offerings at a reasonable price. Better still wait for the 'battery revolution' that has been just around the corner for many years,  and have a battery weighing 50Kg with a range of 500 miles....

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 19, 2020, 10:11:16 PM
let early adopters take the pain and low residuals
That's the problem with used BEVs, they hold their prices better than ICE cars so are not a great used car prospect.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on January 20, 2020, 10:31:12 AM
On the price of used EVs what Jocko says is generally true although the first generation Leafs have edged down a bit since the new 40 kwh battery came out. The 30 kwh battery version remained stubbornly high in the used market but it is possible to get a decent one for about £13,000 now - still pretty high.

I did see a 24 kwh Leaf for £5,000 a few weeks ago on Autotrader. It was high mileage and had lost 2 capacity bars which equates to about a 21% reduction in range. Ideal second car.

The last journey I did that required a decent range was our holiday in Scotland in September last year. Discounting that because I'd happily hire an ICE car for a UK holiday, my last trip that was outside the range of a 24kwh or 30 kwh Leaf was a trip to Abergele in North Wales last August.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on January 20, 2020, 12:48:07 PM
I've watched a few Leafs go through on Copart recently with minimal damage. That's where my next car will be coming from, so long as I can plan ahead and not end up with another 'distress purchase'.  ::)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 23, 2020, 01:21:48 PM
Tesla has displaced Volkswagen as the world's second most valuable carmaker, after a dramatic rise in share price pushed its market value to more than $100bn (£76.1bn). It is now only behind Toyota in value.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51214824 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51214824)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on January 23, 2020, 06:51:05 PM
https://www.fool.com/investing/2019/02/11/tesla-stock-upgraded-what-you-need-to-know.aspx

Different take on valuation of tsla shares, apparently since 2010 tsla have never paid a dividend, and shares can be valued or downvalued on a whim of one financial institution -  tesla autopilot has been involved in quite a few accidents, so how they can say tesla has a commanding lead in autonomous car tech is beyond me, they refused to use lidar and other companies are closing in on them fast, plus tesla have laid off quite a few workers, which will affect their production and delivery schedules.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 23, 2020, 08:06:36 PM
A link to a piece which is almost a year old.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on January 23, 2020, 08:49:38 PM
A link to a piece which is almost a year old.

If you scroll down you will see update 22 jan 2020 but may need to be subscriber to see full article
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 23, 2020, 09:07:10 PM
Right enough. That's the bit that says how well Tesla is doing now.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on January 27, 2020, 10:46:46 AM
On EV's looks like my youngest might get an old Nissan Leaf. She's 38 and, although she had driving lessons years ago she never took a test. She has a 6 mile commute to work and everywhere she goes is within 10 miles. We've talked about car swaps on the odd occasion she needs to go further afield so I might get to drive an EV without owning one. She'll obviously only qualify for an automatic only driving licence but there is a driving school near here with a couple of EVs (Zoe's I think).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 27, 2020, 11:00:19 AM
I was on at my wife to learn to drive on the automatics I had. My thoughts were she could get a restricted licence and once she was happy driving, she could upgrade to a manual. She never got past the application form stage.
She had taken lessons when much younger, but never got as far as the test. I kept warning her that it would be "shut eye with a bang" once I go and she has to bus everywhere. Anyway, she has left it a bit late now so will need to keep her bus pass to hand!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on January 27, 2020, 11:26:00 AM
I was on at my wife to learn to drive on the automatics I had. My thoughts were she could get a restricted licence and once she was happy driving, she could upgrade to a manual. She never got past the application form stage.
She had taken lessons when much younger, but never got as far as the test.

Mother-in-law is well into her 70s and is learning to drive an auto again. She failed her first and only manual test on something silly decades ago, then gave up. She's now been forced to have another go at it, as the father-in-law, who did all the driving, is now disabled after a brain haemorrage and they are pretty stuck without a car where they are.

So, it can be done, but to be honest, I think she's got some bottle to take it on - I'm not sure I would like to be learning in today's traffic.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: RichardA on January 27, 2020, 01:52:59 PM


I don't really fancy a Chinese made car

If your Jazz was 18 months/2 yrs newer it would have been Chinese made.

Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 27, 2020, 10:24:28 PM
Part 2 of Maddie's adventures with her new EV (and even if you are not interested in an electric cars, Maddie is delightful).

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on January 28, 2020, 12:26:53 PM
Yes, I think I'm in love with Maddie as well.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 02, 2020, 01:02:59 PM
Part 3 available now.


I have been having a look round for local chargers as I am considering going EV sooner than later. The local multi storey, about 200 yards from me, has chargers free to use (your parking fee covers the cost). Through the week it costs £2.20 for two hours, which is a reasonable price for a top up, but I was in the car park today and the Sunday price is £1.10 for three hours. None of the chargers were in use today (yes, they were all working), but even if it meant getting there before the shops open, it is still no hardship. I reckon a three hour charge, on a Sunday morning, would probably cover my weekly mileage. Going to have a look at a 64 plate Nissan Leaf, for sale locally. 35,000 miles and £9,300.
It is a black Tekna 24 kWh.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 03, 2020, 01:52:08 PM
Went and had a good look at the Leaf and took it for a test drive. It is a beautiful little car (not that little compared to the Jazz) with all the bells and whistles. It even has heated leather seats. I checked everything worked and did the usual due diligence, checking service history (only had one so far but it is due another shortly), good tyres and the same all round (obviously been replaced fairly recently).
Drives beautifully. Quick off the mark, but once you get up there it is like driving any other car. Car is immaculate. Black, with black interior and diamond-cut alloys. Paid particular attention to the wheels and they are in good nick. Taking my other half to see it Wednesday afternoon. The salesman said he will charge it fully and I can go for a prolonged test run. I'll keep you informed.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on February 03, 2020, 02:39:13 PM
comparison of 24Kwh vs 30Kwh Nissan Leaf

https://pushevs.com/2016/01/13/nissan-leaf-24-kwh-vs-30-kwh/
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 03, 2020, 02:52:47 PM
I read all that last night but the price difference between a 24kWh and a 30kWh is huge. It adds about 25% more to the price.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on February 03, 2020, 03:09:36 PM
Some earlier Leaf had problems with rapid and abnormal tyre wear,  replacing the whole rear axle was the only fix. Also the tyres for Leaf are pretty pricey - especially with 17" rims.

https://www.speakev.com/threads/tyres-for-leaf-costs.29417/
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 03, 2020, 04:02:00 PM
It has 16" rims. Kwik Fit are currently selling Yokohama BluEarth, the same make I have on the Jazz, for £60.50 a pop.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on February 03, 2020, 09:51:08 PM
The Tekna is a nice spec. My mate has a 24 kwh Tekna from 2014 and it's luxurious especially with the heated seats and steering wheel plus the ability to switch it on from your phone so the car is nice and toasty and de-iced when you get in (with home charging you can do this on the house electricity).

He reckons he can get a 100 miles out of his 24 kwh in the summer and a reliable 80 plus in the winter. I'm sure Jocko would match these figures with his economy skills.

I have heard, from more than one source, that the 24 kwh battery is a bit more robust than the 30 kwh with tales that the latter has lost capacity more quickly. Worth looking on SpeakEV for more details.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 04, 2020, 08:37:06 AM
I see the government have announced that they are bringing the cut off date for selling diesel, petrol and hybrid cars forward to 2035. 15 years. It's not that far away. I remember 15 years ago. It was yesterday!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-51366123 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-51366123)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on February 04, 2020, 09:58:52 AM
Yes - I have almost certainly just bought my last ever ICE car. At my advanced age it's a matter of whether I will need another vehicle but one thing has changed for me. My son in law - an electrician - looked at where our consumer unit was located and it's behind our front door which happens to be at the side of our bungalow. There is a 30 foot distance from it to the front of the house. He recommended that an armoured cable be run along the side of the property so that the charging unit can be located on the front wall. To avoid a trip hazard, he recommended paving over part of the front garden so the car could be driven up to the wall where the charger was mounted.

Which is a roundabout way of saying that I have changed from someone who would want to do all their charging at home to someone who would prefer to charge up commercially at, say a supermarket, and get 200 to 300 miles whilst I did my shopping.

It will be interesting to see how quickly car manufacturers start to phase out the ICE. I can't imagine them wanting to be making any ICE car more than 5 years before the ban. Will ICE cars become worthless? You can see why the ownership model, already declining, may well have truly had its day.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on February 04, 2020, 11:51:59 AM
The rest of the world will keep butying IC cars.. It's only the EU.. The US could not give a....
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kenneve on February 04, 2020, 12:29:10 PM
One thing that seems to have been forgotten in the discussion, is where is all the additional electricity required for these chargers going to come from?
If you look on the Gridwatch website, you will see that on some particularly cold winter days, we are already getting close to maximum grid capacity.
Can you imagine the chaos that would ensue, having 1000s of electric cars vying for power, you may well be limited to night-time use only, when demand is lower.
It takes years to build a power station and the government is not even thinking about this issue at the moment.

Also, most houses have a limited power input capacity of around 25Kw, my house is only 15 Kw (ie 60amp main fuse)
Nobody will be fast charging from a domestic supply!
Whilst i applaud the concept of electric cars, i don't think the long term affects have yet been thought out.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on February 04, 2020, 02:19:05 PM
Subststions distribute electricity to households:


"In the UK a typical urban or suburban low-voltage substation would normally be rated between 150 kVA and 1 MVA and supply a whole neighbourhood of a few hundred houses. Transformers are typically sized on an average load of 1 to 2 kW per household, and the service fuses and cable is sized to allow any one property to draw a peak load of perhaps ten times this. For industrial customers, 3-phase 690 / 400 volt is also available, or may be generated locally.[19] Large industrial customers have their own transformer(s) with an input from 11 kV to 220 kV."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_power_distribution#220%E2%80%93240_volt_systems

A 65kw charger is   going to mess up the calculations above..

There are approximately 230,000 primary substations in the UK     http://www.emfs.info/sources/substations/


They are not going to be easy to upgrade.. Let alone the cabling to and from them...  With 15 years to 2035, to upgrade them all would means  15,000  upgraded every year if we started now and if they all needed to be upgraded..

Then there are 349,000 pole-mounted 11 kV/400 V transformers (same link as last)..


The numbers are staggering...
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on February 04, 2020, 02:33:00 PM
Whilst I am normally supportive of "green" measures, it is also the case that there is a drive to eventually outlaw gas central heating boilers and replace, in part at least, with electrically powered heat pumps.

We are going to need a lot of electrons and a lot of battery storage. Is there a "joined up" strategy in existence?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on February 04, 2020, 02:41:59 PM
Whilst I am normally supportive of "green" measures, it is also the case that there is a drive to eventually outlaw gas central heating boilers and replace, in part at least, with electrically powered heat pumps.

We are going to need a lot of electrons and a lot of battery storage. Is there a "joined up" strategy in existence?

Of course there is a joined up strategy.
Smart electric meters wil stop you charging anything if demand is too much.
Problems solved..
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 04, 2020, 02:59:49 PM
My intention is a 7.2 kW home charger. My shower is 8.5 kW. I assume that the Smart charger will switch off before the shower is switched on.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on February 04, 2020, 03:07:21 PM
Of course there is a joined up strategy.
Smart electric meters wil stop you charging anything if demand is too much.
Problems solved..

Not with the current generation of meters, there's only one output. They can disconnect you remotely, but they would have to turn the lot off. They might be able to dissuade you with a peak tariff, but I can't see how they can stop you charging when you want.


My intention is a 7.2 kW home charger. My shower is 8.5 kW. I assume that the Smart charger will switch off before the shower is switched on.

How will it know when you want a shower?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on February 04, 2020, 03:08:33 PM
You can't solve new problems with old thinking.

Or so they say.

An EV carries it's power around in batteries which need to be refilled.

A trolley bus or train gets its power from a powered cable or rail.

An EV of the future will need to work on some combination of interchangeable batteries, charged 'fuels', regenerative charging, stationary power points, powered pickups along major routes, fuel cells and other forms of on board charging (Mr Fusion?).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on February 04, 2020, 03:10:06 PM
How will it know when you want a shower?
Easy. Is it a Bank Holiday?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on February 04, 2020, 03:19:44 PM
How will it know when you want a shower?
Easy. Is it a Bank Holiday?

Birthday!  :P
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on February 04, 2020, 03:28:44 PM
Looks like cancelling HS2 and spending the £500 billion it will eventually cost on improving our electrical infrastructure - what is happening with our nuclear power station building plan,  seems we can afford a large white elephant but not nuclear power to run all these electron guzzling vehicles we are supposed to be buying !
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on February 04, 2020, 03:37:48 PM
My Nissan Leaf driving pal has another pal who I met recently. He is an EV sceptic. He's completely signed up to reducing CO2 and other emmissions but makes the point that if we have 30 million EVs we will still have the traffic congestion, we will still have emissions from brakes and tyres (particulates) and we will have energy intensive car and battery production plus, possibly, a longer reliance on fossil fuels for power generation.

I don't think that invalidates an individual choice to go EV when the time comes but, long term, we probably need to get to a place where the car is part of a number of ways of getting about but not the main one. That must mean more and better public transport, encouragement of cycling and walking and so on. 

The future may well be shared autonomous EVs but I don't think I'll be around to see that.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on February 04, 2020, 03:56:56 PM

I don't think that invalidates an individual choice to go EV when the time comes but, long term, we probably need to get to a place where the car is part of a number of ways of getting about but not the main one. That must mean more and better public transport, encouragement of cycling and walking and so on. 

Yes, we're too fixated on cars. The problem is there's still a lot of money to be made from manufacturing them and oil  and now batteries to power them.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on February 04, 2020, 04:37:31 PM
I don't think that invalidates an individual choice to go EV when the time comes but, long term, we probably need to get to a place where the car is part of a number of ways of getting about but not the main one. That must mean more and better public transport, encouragement of cycling and walking and so on. 

I agree. I think I've said on here before that I'm a big believer in an extensive and heavily subsidised public transport system - more like the common European model, where publicly operated railways are a fraction of the cost here.

I'd love to be able to use trains, but you just can't afford it. The village's railway station was closed back in 1959, but we don't even have a bus service now that's been scrapped too.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on February 04, 2020, 04:45:14 PM
Public transport in UK is a disgrace,  getting rid of guards on trains, no conductor on a bus and most UK stations have no staff ( ours certainly doesn't,  when you arrive there in the dark it is empty,  if I were a woman I would not be happy arriving there on my own,  bad enough for a bloke ).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 04, 2020, 05:03:59 PM
How will it know when you want a shower?
I assume it will sense the instant the load starts to increase and shut down then. Or maybe it will be smart enough to know when I'm on a promise (wish I was that smart).

Perhaps the new Rolls Royce mini nuclear power stations will be the answer to future electricity.

Autonomous taxis will be the future of personalized transport.

My stepdaughter has lived and worked in New Zealand, Hong Kong, mainland China and Chile, and she cannot believe how expensive and disjointed UK public transport is in comparison to these other countries. She now lives and works in London and she says at least there they have a fairly joined-up system with the benefit of the ubiquitous "Oyster" card.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on February 04, 2020, 05:07:05 PM
2035 is 15 years away and not, IMO, an ambitious target. Car manufacturers are already moving quickly down the EV road. It's the vans and lorries which need to catch up. Hydrogen fuel cell powered vehicles are already in production on a small scale but are expensive.

China is investing heavily in electric vehicles. However, at the same time the country is currently building over 100GW of addtional coal fired power stations so there's no benefit (more likely a disbenefit) in terms of CO2 production and the current objective appears to be reduction in pollution in the urban centres.

Regarding the problem of power needed for charging, the vast majority of drivers don't do 200 miles/day on a regular basis. This majority can make do with lower powered chargers for their daily requirements but will also need access to more powerful charging when they make longer trips. Assuming 4 miles/kWh, 50 miles/day and 90% charging efficiency, the daily charging is about 14kWh. This can be achieved using a relatively modest charger (eg 3.5kW for 4 hours). Nonetheless, 10 million vehicles all drawing 3.5kW at the same time is 35GW but that could be easily spread over twice the hours during the night. However, increasing night time demand will eliminate the currently available cheap electricity. Hydrogen production will probably also need electricity but there's potential for storage to minimise power demand when it's scarce.

A related issue is that sooner or later government has to change the taxation system to compensate for the revenue lost as vehicle sales reduce. Road pricing is the obvious solution and this may have the side-effect of encouraging people to travel fewer miles. Ultimately, less travel is what will help the planet. We need to get the politicians to ensure closer proximity between homes and jobs.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on February 04, 2020, 05:50:53 PM
Good post John.

Very quick "fag packet" calculation based on UK average mileage per annum of 8,000 miles shows that an older Nissan Leaf would need charging 2 or 3 times a week at the absolute outside and, the newer 200 plus mile EVs about once a week.

So the nightmare scenario of 30 million EVs all plugging in at teatime simply will not happen. Clearly there are capacity issues but they may be exaggerated.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 04, 2020, 06:26:32 PM
Fully Charged spoke to a heid yin from the National Grid a while back and he was quite confident that the grid would cope with no issues. I'll try and find the video.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kenneve on February 04, 2020, 06:45:27 PM
If you look at the Gridwatch website right now, 18,25 hrs GMT you will see that UK power demand is 45.7 Gw approaching the orange band on the meter, certainly not much leeway for the additional consumption of millions of electric cars.
Even in the dead of night, it rarely drops to less that about 30 Gw, so where is the additional 35 Gw that John talks about going to come from?

To confirm my earlier comment about household power capacity, just have look at the main supply fuse in your house.
I doubt very it will be much more than 100 amps rating or 25 Kw.

Don’t get me wrong, I applaud the move to electric cars, I’m just concerned about how we are going to charge then, without the almost inevitable power cuts.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on February 04, 2020, 07:17:59 PM


Don’t get me wrong, I applaud the move to electric cars, I’m just concerned about how we are going to charge then, without the almost inevitable power cuts.
Some information in these two articles

https://www.current-news.co.uk/news/bev-sales-on-track-to-top-national-grid-projections-1
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 04, 2020, 08:50:43 PM
I doubt very it will be much more than 100 amps rating or 25 Kw.
A home charger is a maximum of 7.2 kW - same as an electric shower. Anything higher than that (Fast Chargers and Rapid Chargers) are industrial installations and not for home use.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest4871 on February 04, 2020, 09:49:55 PM
If you look at the Gridwatch website right now, 18,25 hrs GMT you will see that UK power demand is 45.7 Gw approaching the orange band on the meter, certainly not much leeway for the additional consumption of millions of electric cars.
Even in the dead of night, it rarely drops to less that about 30 Gw, so where is the additional 35 Gw that John talks about going to come from?

To confirm my earlier comment about household power capacity, just have look at the main supply fuse in your house.
I doubt very it will be much more than 100 amps rating or 25 Kw.

Don’t get me wrong, I applaud the move to electric cars, I’m just concerned about how we are going to charge then, without the almost inevitable power cuts.

Not forgetting that by 2035 we may well also need electric power generation to run up to 18 250 mph electric trains per hour between London and Birmingham. I hope  someone has thought this through.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on February 05, 2020, 09:56:47 AM
I doubt very it will be much more than 100 amps rating or 25 Kw.
A home charger is a maximum of 7.2 kW - same as an electric shower. Anything higher than that (Fast Chargers and Rapid Chargers) are industrial installations and not for home use.

Few people shower for more than 15 minutes.
A 7KW charger will take over 3 hours to charge a 24KW depleted battery.


The KEY is the length of time in use...

Today Gridwatch show 40GW  + demand and renewables generate 19% (vs normal 30-40$). Low wind /solar...


Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 05, 2020, 10:09:58 AM
I doubt very it will be much more than 100 amps rating or 25 Kw.
A home charger is a maximum of 7.2 kW - same as an electric shower. Anything higher than that (Fast Chargers and Rapid Chargers) are industrial installations and not for home use.

Few people shower for more than 15 minutes.
A 7KW charger will take over 3 hours to charge a 24KW depleted battery.


The KEY is the length of time in use...
No. We are talking instantaneous figures here. As regards the capacity of the house electrical system it is not wired to allow you to use the shower for 15 minutes then the wiring overheats. My wiring will allow me to run the shower 24/7 so it doesn't matter whether it is the shower that is running or the EV charger.
It is only the grid capacity where the total amount of energy could become an issue. And there will have to be some solution worked out to accommodate that.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 05, 2020, 10:11:19 AM
Looking forward to our lengthy test drive this afternoon. Pity, it is a rather grey day.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on February 05, 2020, 03:21:01 PM
I doubt very it will be much more than 100 amps rating or 25 Kw.
A home charger is a maximum of 7.2 kW - same as an electric shower. Anything higher than that (Fast Chargers and Rapid Chargers) are industrial installations and not for home use.

Few people shower for more than 15 minutes.
A 7KW charger will take over 3 hours to charge a 24KW depleted battery.


The KEY is the length of time in use...
No. We are talking instantaneous figures here. As regards the capacity of the house electrical system it is not wired to allow you to use the shower for 15 minutes then the wiring overheats. My wiring will allow me to run the shower 24/7 so it doesn't matter whether it is the shower that is running or the EV charger.
It is only the grid capacity where the total amount of energy could become an issue. And there will have to be some solution worked out to accommodate that.

Our house was rewired in 1977. The circuit for the electric showers is 40Amp wiring... 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 05, 2020, 03:25:49 PM
Our house was rewired in 1977. The circuit for the electric showers is 40Amp wiring...
10 kW.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 05, 2020, 03:28:19 PM
Took my good lady for her test run today and she loved the car. The battery was fully charged so I decided to do my usual Saturday run. I had read on another forum that it is more efficient to use the heated seats, rather than the cabin heater so this was what we did. We hadn’t gone far before we were too warm so switched them off. I had asked the salesman about the regen settings (he had to look up the handbook) so I used maximum regen where I would have used Deceleration Fuel Cut Off and minimum regen where I normally coast. I got as far as the Gogar roundabout when I chickened out. I still had plenty of range left but “Range anxiety” kicked in and I started to worry about the battery going flat before I completed the journey. I had no idea where to find a public charger had I needed one. I went round the Gogar roundabout and returned home.
The trip was very enjoyable and Madge was ready to buy the car there and then but I am not sure. The round trip to Mum’s is 80 miles and when I got back to dealer’s I still had enough range left, but yesterday I did the same trip, but earlier in the day, and sat for three miles in queueing traffic (12 mpg on ScanGauge). I am concerned that the 24 kWh battery may not be sufficient for a winter return trip in traffic. I could always connect it up at Mum’s, using the 13A charging cable but a couple of hours on that probably wouldn’t make much difference. I’ll have to give this some thought and a bit more research.
Once we move over to Danderhall the car would be great. With no more than 20 miles motoring (if that) in a day and a 7.2 kW home charger I would be made. I will either search for a 30 kWh Leaf or hang off until we make the move. The Jazz is MOT’d until June so still a bit time to make my mind up.

(https://i.imgur.com/N1Qtd9k.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on February 05, 2020, 03:48:41 PM
I still had plenty of range left but “Range anxiety” kicked in and I started to worry about the battery going flat before I completed the journey.

pretty much every BEV car test / review I have read has mentioned 'range anxiety' - something you don't get with ICE because the fuel gauge is actually measuring a real substance and not 'electrickery', using coulomb counting the margin of error is still quite large,  so the battery gauge  is described as a 'guessometer' - a few even described the battery as a 'rubber bucket' where you never really knew how much range was actually left ---
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 05, 2020, 04:23:54 PM
I get range anxiety as soon as my low fuel light comes on. I go to the first garage I come to. If I had the car and drove it for a few trips to get an idea of what range I could expect I would be much happier.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on February 05, 2020, 05:02:57 PM
I think range anxiety is a thing although my pal dismisses it (he has a 24 kwh Leaf). My issue is the occasional need to do longer trips into areas where there is no charging infrastructure. You often hear it said that there are now more public charging points than there are petrol stations. Technically it is true but the average filling station will have ten pumps and will only take 5 minutes to fill your car so the comparison is meaningless.

The Tekna Leaf is a lovely car though. If you never did more than, say 50 miles, it would be ideal because you could drive it without compromising on heat, air con and speed. As a second car - a no brainer.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on February 05, 2020, 05:48:22 PM
Even in the dead of night, it rarely drops to less that about 30 Gw, so where is the additional 35 Gw that John talks about going to come from?
The 35 GW was everyone charging for the same 4 hour period. Spread it over 8 hours (11pm to 7am) and the requirement is less formidable. Nonetheless, we need several more big nuclear power stations (or the equivalent output in Small Modular Reactors) as the sun won't be shining and the wind might not be blowing when everyone wants to charge their vehicles. If the SMRs are deemed safe enough to be placed in urban areas then the waste heat can be used to replace all the gas being burned by the central heating boilers.

I am concerned that the 24 kWh battery may not be sufficient for a winter return trip in traffic. I could always connect it up at Mum’s, using the 13A charging cable but a couple of hours on that probably wouldn’t make much difference. I’ll have to give this some thought and a bit more research.
13A = 3kW so potentially 6kWh in 2 hours (more likely 5.5 kWh usable charge). That's almost the difference between the 24 and 30kWh versions of the Leaf and 4 miles/kWh an extra 22 miles. Nonetheless, you might be struggling if the battery loses some capacity but if you are planning to move and reduce the maximum journey distance then that's not a show-stopper. I would trust a battery gauge more than a normal fuel gauge.

Apart from going a bit more slowly and turning the heating off, there's probably not as much scope to stretch the mileage by careful driving as the energy potentially wasted in braking should be put back into the battery.  An EV should handle queuing traffic much better than an IC engine as the bursts of power to move the vehicle forwards are largely recovered when stopping. An IC hybrid is also more efficient in such conditions than a non-hybrid. Do EVs have LED lights by default? A pair of 60W halogen bulbs is a significant power drain (particularly in queuing traffic).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on February 05, 2020, 06:16:54 PM
I would trust a battery gauge more than a normal fuel gauge.

 Do EVs have LED lights by default? A pair of 60W halogen bulbs is a significant power drain (particularly in queuing traffic).

https://mpoweruk.com/soc.htm

There is a reason the SOC indicator is often called a guessometer,  methods of working out state of charge or battery health are very tricky and not as accurate as people may think.  Using battery terminal voltage may work quite well for a lead acid battery where battery terminal voltage is fairly closely related to state of charge, but for lithium chemistries that does not work so coulomb counting is used, which tries to measure what goes in and what comes out but as battery ages its capacity gets less, so this has to be factored into the algorithm,  and anything that interrupts the measuring can result in large errors.  One source of error is self discharge of battery which can give a higher reading for SOC than actual is the case.  Also keeping Li-Ion battery chemistry in a high state of charge damages it.

I had a good example of coulomb counting going wrong on my electric razor recently when I replaced the Li-ION battery.  I had checked the new battery voltage before installation and it was pretty much fully charged at 3.75volts - but after installation the shaver would not run,  I had to unsolder battery again, connect a bulb across to discharge to 2.85 volts and then reconnect,  after reconnecting the battery I then recharged it and the shaver ran OK and has done so ever since - the fact that the coulomb counting device was not happy meant it stopped the shaver running even with a fully charged battery simply because it had lost track of the battery charge / discharge history.   I had no idea how much charge was in the battery after I discharged it,  which means that the error is now fixed in the coulomb counter, it may say battery is empty and stop razor running when battery is still 30% full for all I know....


I would have thought LED lights all round would be absolutely essential on battery powered cars due to drain of filament lights.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 05, 2020, 06:21:08 PM
The Tekna has LED headlights but I don't think the lesser models do. They do have LED running lights, front and rear. I am currently looking at insurance costs as buying it as a second car is not that silly an idea. With no Road Tax, it is only the insurance costs and what I use in electricity I need to payout. And when I use the Leaf I won't be burning fuel in the Jazz. It is not as if I need to sell the Jazz to fund the purchase. The Jazz may be going to the great scrapyard in the sky, come its next MOT!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 05, 2020, 06:50:59 PM
AA quoted £307 for insurance but I will phone my insurer since I am adding a second car. A second car won't be that cheap.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on February 05, 2020, 09:29:30 PM
Of course the important thing Jocko is that you stay around this forum so we can follow your next adventures. We'd miss you if you went.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 05, 2020, 10:11:47 PM
If I still have the Jazz as well, I will still be eligible for the forum!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: springswood on February 06, 2020, 07:42:43 AM
Quote
The Jazz may be going to the great scrapyard in the sky, come its next MOT!

I do hope not. But perhaps you could donate it to medical science, see where your amazing fuel economy comes from  ;D.

Also I second what's been said about a couple of hours 3kw charge makes a difference and how one of the big plusses of BEVs is that crawling in traffic doesn't waste juice.

What I wondered is how good is the interior space in the Leaf?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 06, 2020, 10:13:26 AM
What I wondered is how good is the interior space in the Leaf?
It doesn't have the wonderful magic seats of the Jazz but it is quite roomy (it is a size up from the Jazz). The taxi company, here in Kirkcaldy, seems to find them roomy enough. For 99.9% of my motoring, I only need two front seats, and they were comfortable and roomy enough. The boot is a bit small but all I normally need is room for shopping. I seldom ever have to carry cases and my golfing days are long past.

(https://i.imgur.com/xNHJU1G.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/EuIzfGN.jpg)

Insuring it as a second car looks a bit iffy. You can only have NCB on one of the cars you insure. My wife doesn't drive so we cannot split them. That may well be the fly in the ointment regarding having it as a second car.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on February 06, 2020, 11:30:57 AM
So now the government is saying that after a certain date new houses cannot be fitted with gas boilers for heating and hot water.  Not every place is suitable for ground source heatpumps which are the most efficient alternative at around 3.5kw return on 1 kw used to drive the pump,  airsource heatpumps ( reverse cycle airconditioning ) are next with 2 to 2.5kw per 1 Kw of electricity used.  Both these systems have a fairly low flow temperature of around 40degC, which is not really high enough for heating water properly and probably more suited to underfloor heating than conventional convector radiators.  The capital cost of both these systems is high,  with ground source being very high.

So the government banning other sorts of energy is placing more and more and more emphasis on electrical power,  but we are not building any nuclear reactors for reliable base power supply, and keep putting money into unreliable solar and wind.  Using gas to produce electrical power is not near as efficient as burning gas in an efficient condensing gas boiler in your house or building.

With all this extra electricity required I am sure the greenies who want it are gonna have apoplexy when new pylons start appearing on the countryside.  but the fact is that underground cables for very high voltages are prohibitively expensive compared to pylons and need more maintenance - we are going to need those Rolls-Royce local nuclear stations for sure.  It was Edison who wanted to use DC and have a power station in every town ( distributing DC could not be done over any distance back then ) and Tesla who said AC was better ( and he was 100% correct ) because it was easy to raise the voltage with transformers to enable high voltage / low current transmission ( power = volts x amps,  so for any given power as the voltage rises the current drops enabling smaller cables to be used ).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 06, 2020, 11:36:54 AM
So what would you suggest to stop us burning fossil fuels? Or do you not think that burning fossil fuels is an issue?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest4871 on February 06, 2020, 03:16:15 PM
So what would you suggest to stop us burning fossil fuels? Or do you not think that burning fossil fuels is an issue?

The problem seems to be, by not burning fossil fuels or wood, we are effectively banning fire. Fire has supported the human race for some (let's say) 300,000 years.

Not burning fossil fuels is only a temporary solution anyway as population growth continues unrestrained.

More benefit would probably accrue from population control, reduction in the huge waste we all now generate and heavy restrictions on consumerism and natural resource utilisation - none of which will be politically or economically popular.

Focusing on fossil fuels is probably missing the real problem. And, until you can persuade the US to cooperate, it is probably pointless. We don't know it would work anyway. Scientists used to think the earth was flat and diesel was a good thing and all things nuclear were very bad for humankind.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on February 06, 2020, 06:45:23 PM
I write  as Renewables are producing 12% of our power and nuclear 13%...Coal is 7%  (Gridwatch)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on February 06, 2020, 07:44:47 PM
https://life.spectator.co.uk/articles/why-motoring-could-soon-be-the-preserve-of-the-wealthy/
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on February 06, 2020, 08:48:46 PM
It was Edison who wanted to use DC and have a power station in every town ( distributing DC could not be done over any distance back then ) and Tesla who said AC was better ( and he was 100% correct ) because it was easy to raise the voltage with transformers to enable high voltage / low current transmission ( power = volts x amps,  so for any given power as the voltage rises the current drops enabling smaller cables to be used ).
However, the long distance power system interconnectors are high voltage (500kV or more) DC to avoid the AC induction losses (there's also the advantage that the AC grids at each end don't have to be synchronised) and the reduction in losses over a long distance more than offset the cost of conversion at each end.

So what would you suggest to stop us burning fossil fuels? Or do you not think that burning fossil fuels is an issue?
Wood fires aren't fossil fuel although they still produce CO2 and other unwanted emissions. Otherwise we'll all have to wrap up during the colder months.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on February 06, 2020, 09:19:00 PM
The high voltage cable connections have to be D.C. as you say to avoid inductive losses, but the pylon system still AC.  Undersea and underground high voltage cables are really expensive due to inverters required and cables have to pressurised oil filled to make sure no water gets in. D.C. is horrible really, as once an arc starts there is nothing to stop it, where AC goes through zero volts every half cycle before reversing polarity, so arcs tend to be self quenching.  Edisons idea to use D.C. meant high current at low voltage which would have limited the distance it could travel,  Tesla used transformers to raise and lower voltages for efficient transmission. 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 07, 2020, 08:04:41 AM
My better half came up with a great idea last night. Since we will be moving to my mother-in-law’s house shortly (she is going to require live-in care), why not get a charge point installed there now. That way I can charge the car while we are visiting, which will resolve my range anxiety. After all, I will have to use a public charger here anyway, as I live at the top of a block of flats.
The installation should be straightforward as I will be mounting it immediately on the outside of the wall with the meter and distribution board. Prices for a charger, without the OLEV grant, start around £600-£700, but it appears you can get an OLEV grant for a used car, which brings the price down to £300 for a quality charger.
I will have to do further research.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on February 07, 2020, 08:51:05 AM
Plan puts Glasgow on route to be UK’s first net-zero city by 2030.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/environment/plan-puts-glasgow-on-route-to-be-uk-s-first-net-zero-city-by-2030-1-5087167
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on February 07, 2020, 11:17:40 AM
Scotland definitely ahead of the game in making it easier to own an EV. The charge point issue is a biggie for people living in flats and terraced houses. Even in our situation, where we have off road parking but the consumer unit is a long way from the parking space, we have issues with extra installation costs, trip hazards etc etc unless we put it on the front of the house - possible but requiring an armoured cable down the side of the bungalow and, ideally, removing part of the front garden so any EV could be parked in front of the charger.

This is where the default position, in time, won't, for many people, be home charging but visits to a public charger. When 300 miles becomes the norm in range terms this won't be that onerous a task.

The destination charging thing that Jock is talking about will definitely make a low range EV suitable for him.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on February 07, 2020, 03:11:24 PM
Scotland definitely ahead of the game in making it easier to own an EV.
And in generation of renewable energy which is why Boris Johnson wants to take ownership of COP 26 away from " that bloody Wee Jimmy Krankie woman.”
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18214159.cop26-row-boris-johnson-called-nicola-sturgeon-that-bloody-wee-jimmy-krankie-woman/

 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on February 07, 2020, 06:33:29 PM
The high voltage cable connections have to be D.C. as you say to avoid inductive losses, but the pylon system still AC. 
Here's a 500kV DC overhead line which I've seen with my own eyes. I had to look twice and think hard to realise what was different - only two main conductors.

There are plenty more - China has one at 1100kV.  :o :o
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 07, 2020, 08:16:09 PM
I have given up the idea of buying the Leaf - for the present at least. Today my wife was undergoing chemo, then she had an appointment at the Cancer Unit at the Western General. The chemo took a long time so we had missed the Edinburgh appointment but the Vic had phoned the Western and we were told as long as we were there by 5 pm we would be okay. However, we didn't get there until just before 5 and they said we were too late, but they had arranged for us to go to the Royal Infirmary, on the other side of the city. We did, and everything went well. The problem was, if I had had the Leaf I would not have had enough charge to get home. There are no EV charge points at the RIE (it is near impossible to get parked at all) and to have to go and charge someplace else, after my wife had had a harrowing 9 hour day was not an option. I think I will hang fire and try and get a Kona or a Nero, once the secondhand costs drop into my price range. And it was such a lovely car and a nice price.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on February 07, 2020, 08:21:43 PM
Glad your wife's treatment went OK.
There are more important things in life than cars.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 07, 2020, 08:31:32 PM
Glad your wife's treatment went OK.
Thanks. She has three more chemo sessions (once a week) then a three-week break, then three weeks, five days a week of Radiotherapy at the Western.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: DAN@ADRIAN FLUX on February 07, 2020, 09:07:23 PM
The Tekna has LED headlights but I don't think the lesser models do. They do have LED running lights, front and rear. I am currently looking at insurance costs as buying it as a second car is not that silly an idea. With no Road Tax, it is only the insurance costs and what I use in electricity I need to payout. And when I use the Leaf I won't be burning fuel in the Jazz. It is not as if I need to sell the Jazz to fund the purchase. The Jazz may be going to the great scrapyard in the sky, come its next MOT!
Hi.
If you need any help with insurance at all then please feel free to drop me a line.
Regards,
Dan.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on February 07, 2020, 09:26:28 PM
Best wishes to your wife Jocko. Think you've made the right decision at this time.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 08, 2020, 10:05:02 AM
Thanks.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on February 08, 2020, 10:01:51 PM
Ditto the above Jocko, give her my very best wishes.

I just found out an old friend, whom I haven't seen for a while, has been going through the mangle too. He had his last dose of chemo a few weeks ago, and they seem very hopeful that that's the end of it.

As for the Jazz, sometimes it's better the devil you know, and all that. I understand that temptation to swap gets stronger as the miles clock up, but you never know, it just might surprise you come MOT time. It would be a shame not to get another 100,000 out of that gearbox!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 12, 2020, 03:43:57 PM
The UK's planned ban on sales of new petrol, diesel or hybrid cars could start as early as 2032, Transport Secretary Grant Shapps has said.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on February 13, 2020, 10:55:51 AM
What will be interesting is to see when manufacturers themselves start phasing the ICE and Hybrid cars out of their ranges. I wonder if it will be possible to buy a new ICE much after 2030 anyway?

Before settling for another Jazz I did a lot of research and thinking and I have decided that the criteria I need are a guaranteed 150 miles range at 70 mph in mid winter with climate control and every accessory on full blast.

The 50 khw Renault Zoe will do this but £26,000 a bit of a stretch. My next car will, absolutely, be an EV. I hope Honda have something more credible than the Honda E on the table by then.

Will used ICE prices crash through the floor (you will still be able to drive them just not buy new) or will there be a robust market for people who just don't want to have an EV at any price?

At what point do the big oil companies come to the party and start closing petrol stations and replacing with EV charging hubs? Might owning an ICE then become as inconvenient as an EV is for many people at the present?

Lots of imponderables but I suspect we will see a tipping point by, say, the mid 2020s.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on February 13, 2020, 11:14:57 AM
Most garages will probably decrease number of pumps while increasing EV charge points - I you buy an ICE car in 2030 it will easily last till 2050 - and there are a lot of classic and vintage cars around that still need fuel.  Maybe hydrogen will replace petrol and diesel so garages will sell that as well.  We still need to pump and refine crude to get all the other things we need from petroleum, and the military will still run their kit on petrol products ( and if anyone complains about emissions from a F-35 or F-16 they will just get targeted with a well place missile ) so it ain't gonna go away anytime soon.

just imagine air-to-air refueling of an electric military plane ' if you can stay hooked up for 3 hours we can give you another 100 miles LOL ). Also 'our military planes can't carry weapons any more because they can only just take off with the weight of the batteries'..
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on February 13, 2020, 02:03:32 PM
Battery powered missiles would be interesting. Saving the planet whilst killing people at the same time.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on February 13, 2020, 03:04:19 PM


just imagine air-to-air refueling of an electric military plane ' if you can stay hooked up for 3 hours we can give you another 100 miles LOL ). Also 'our military planes can't carry weapons any more because they can only just take off with the weight of the batteries'..

But Boris is promising electric planes.


   " There will be a dawn of a new age of electric vehicles, not just cars or bicycles but electric planes.

    Electric planes. It's happening already. Made possible with battery technology being developed now in the UK."

https://www.indy100.com/article/boris-johnson-manchester-speech-invented-new-bus-watch-video-9023321
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on February 13, 2020, 03:30:30 PM


just imagine air-to-air refueling of an electric military plane ' if you can stay hooked up for 3 hours we can give you another 100 miles LOL ). Also 'our military planes can't carry weapons any more because they can only just take off with the weight of the batteries'..

But Boris is promising electric planes.


   " There will be a dawn of a new age of electric vehicles, not just cars or bicycles but electric planes.

    Electric planes. It's happening already. Made possible with battery technology being developed now in the UK."

https://www.indy100.com/article/boris-johnson-manchester-speech-invented-new-bus-watch-video-9023321


This is what the silly fool will be rambling about, they're looking at them for the 5-10 minute hops to and from Orkney's North Isles -

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/air-transport/2019-11-20/uk-backs-hybrid-electric-re-engining-britten-norman-islander


This is the best bit,

"I know a lot about buses, believe me. I love buses, I helped to invent a new type of bus."
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 13, 2020, 04:50:18 PM
Might owning an ICE then become as inconvenient as an EV is for many people at the present?
The town I stayed in for the first 57 years of my life has no filling station. The nearest is a 12-mile round trip. When petrol cost 4/4d a gallon it had 5.  It does, however, have a charging station!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on February 13, 2020, 04:57:13 PM


But Boris is promising electric planes.


   " There will be a dawn of a new age of electric vehicles, not just cars or bicycles but electric planes.

    Electric planes. It's happening already. Made possible with battery technology being developed now in the UK."

https://www.indy100.com/article/boris-johnson-manchester-speech-invented-new-bus-watch-video-9023321


This will what the silly fool will be rambling about, they're looking at them for the 5-10 minute hops to and from Orkney's North Isles -

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/air-transport/2019-11-20/uk-backs-hybrid-electric-re-engining-britten-norman-islander

Yep that's them. Not even electric but hybrid and only for very short flights

This is the best bit,

"I know a lot about buses, believe me. I love buses, I helped to invent a new type of bus."

The diesel ones with no opening windows on the top deck and the free jump-on jump-off platform at the back.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/boris-buses-back-door-boarding-ban-to-stop-fare-dodgers-a4331146.html
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/sadiq-khan-axes-new-routemasters-on-london-streets-in-costcutting-drive-a3430836.html


Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 13, 2020, 07:13:27 PM
Ford Europe are lobbying for a rethink on the 2032-35 date for banning the sale of ICE and Hybrid cars.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51485912 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51485912)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on February 14, 2020, 09:54:28 AM
I looked at the National Grid's plan to charge electric cars.

https://www.nationalgrid.com/document/125116/download

"Recommendation 1
..... Driving the Transition’, we believe the Government should prioritise the
rollout of a ‘national network of ultra-rapid EV chargers’.
Recommendation 2
.....
Vehicle Act, the Government should designate, in 2019,
which MSA sites should be part of a minimal viable network
of ultra-rapid chargers, to ensure there is adequate time to
deliver the required electricity network infrastructure, and
ensure EV targets are achieved
"



That was before the target was brought forward...
And the 2019 date has not bene met..

So lots of words: and NO action..


BBB  (Bullshit baffles brains)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on February 17, 2020, 06:27:44 AM
https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/news/motoring-news/80mph-motorway-speed-limit-could-be-on-the-way-thanks-to-electric-cars/

I cannot think of a vehicle less likely to do 80+ on a motorway ( but we all know people will take it as a signal that they can now do 90 or 100 MPH - because people do 80  now and police turn a blind eye ).

Every test and review of BEV that I have read says the same thing, the range plummets to about 60% when you take a BEV onto the motorway at 70mph, add in cold weather and a wet road and you are now down to maybe 50%.... And as the RAC says,  70mph is about safety,  cars may be better but drivers certainly aren't...

So will we have a line of BEV in inside lane doing 50 because the driver has galloping range anxiety and the other lanes doing 90 ? Add lorries into the mix (still overtaking another lorry at 1mph ) and I cannot think of a more dangerous scenario.

Is this the governments cack-handed way of promoting BEV with the promise of increase in speed limit carrot ?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 17, 2020, 09:33:40 AM
Tesla has been ordered to temporarily halt preparations for a car factory in Germany after environmentalists won a court injunction on Sunday.
They had been clearing forest land near Berlin, ahead of building its first European car and battery plant.
The court emphasised the injunction was temporary and subject to further hearings, probably this week.
Protesters say the factory is a threat to local wildlife and water supplies.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 17, 2020, 11:26:42 AM
I just got round to watching last weeks "Top Gear". Chris Harris was testing the BEV Porsche Taycan Turbo S (yes "Turbo". Porsche now say "Turbo" means "Fast"). He was thrilled to bits with it. It costs an arm and a leg. And a kidney.
It is a four-door, four-seater, four-wheel drive, with 761 PS, 0-62 mph in 2.8 seconds (same as the Ariel Atom) and a 250-mile range. Just gone straight to the top of my "Lottery List".

(https://images.hgmsites.net/hug/2020-porsche-taycan_100714579_h.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 26, 2020, 10:25:05 AM
Government should either re-introduce the annual fuel duty rises and/or add an emissions surcharge on the annual VED to motivate the worst of the fuel guzzlers / polluters to get off the road.
Fuel duty rises would cripple me at the moment. We are forced into doing high mileages due to family circumstances and a sizeable rise in petrol prices would really knock my finances, living on a fixed income. Especially since my wife is unable to work at the moment.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on February 26, 2020, 01:04:48 PM
Government should either re-introduce the annual fuel duty rises and/or add an emissions surcharge on the annual VED to motivate the worst of the fuel guzzlers / polluters to get off the road.
Fuel duty rises would cripple me at the moment. We are forced into doing high mileages due to family circumstances and a sizeable rise in petrol prices would really knock my finances, living on a fixed income. Especially since my wife is unable to work at the moment.

Farm workers and other rural workers tend to drive older cars as their jobs are not well paid...but a car is essential to get to shops /work  - few rural bus services..

Taxing them out of their transport will have obvious effects .. most of them bad.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: VicW on March 01, 2020, 04:44:50 PM
If the money was there my next car would be a BEV. My mileage usage and journey lengths make one a viable proposition and I have a driveway/garage for ease of charging.
My short list is the Peugeot E208 or the new Honda-e. There is a basic Skoda that only charges off a normal 3-pin socket but that is what I would use anyway as I would charge the car overnight on the Economy7 cheap rate.
Servicing should be cheaper with no oil, filters, coolant but still a pollen filter of course.

Vic.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 01, 2020, 06:20:04 PM
There is a grant for installing a charge point so it is not worth not getting one. Charging from a 3-pin plug is doable but takes a long long time. The E208 would take about 17 hours for a full charge from a 13A socket.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: VicW on March 01, 2020, 07:20:05 PM
Thanks for that response Jocko. For my kind of current, no pun intended, car use the battery would never need a full charge, it would be on charge every night for seven hours which is the Economy7 lower price electricity allowance.
If there is a grant for a charging point obviously I would look into that.
In passing I think that as the government gets less and less from fuel duty they will make that up by introducing/ increasing the road fund licence on BEV's .

Vic.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 01, 2020, 07:34:58 PM
It is called an OLEV grant and it is up to £500. The car does not need to be new. And if you have two BEVs you can get the grant for two chargers.
Once BEVs start to come to the fore there will be some form of taxation. Hope they do it on size and/or mileage.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on April 21, 2020, 01:29:23 PM
Sitting here at the hospital and for the second day watched (actually "listened") to one of the NHS Nissan electric vans go by. It has a device stuck on the front of the bonnet which emits a "space ship" sort of noise. I know electric vehicles now emit sound at low speed, but this one is just plain weird!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on April 21, 2020, 06:12:53 PM
Sitting here at the hospital and for the second day watched (actually "listened") to one of the NHS Nissan electric vans go by. It has a device stuck on the front of the bonnet which emits a "space ship" sort of noise. I know electric vehicles now emit sound at low speed, but this one is just plain weird!

I think it's user-selectable on some of them, driver might be a Star Trek fan.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on May 06, 2020, 01:21:51 PM
It is hard to figure whats happening in Musks brain...

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/grimes-elon-musk-baby-x-ea-a-12-meaning-name-a9500831.html
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on May 06, 2020, 02:13:13 PM
The man should be certified.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on May 06, 2020, 09:50:11 PM
The man should be certified.

He's certainly not constrained by conventional thought.

I call him bold, but bonkers.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on May 07, 2020, 01:29:49 PM
It is hard to figure whats happening in Musks brain...

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/grimes-elon-musk-baby-x-ea-a-12-meaning-name-a9500831.html

Looks to me that the choice of name might have come from his partner.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on May 27, 2020, 04:31:46 PM
France going all out to have EVs drive the return of car manufacture and purchasing.

https://time.com/5842884/france-8-billion-electric-car-industry/ (https://time.com/5842884/france-8-billion-electric-car-industry/)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on May 27, 2020, 06:07:55 PM
France going all out to have EVs drive the return of car manufacture and purchasing.

https://time.com/5842884/france-8-billion-electric-car-industry/ (https://time.com/5842884/france-8-billion-electric-car-industry/)

Wasn't it Einstein that said, “In the middle of difficulty lies opportunity.”
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on May 27, 2020, 07:46:25 PM
UK getting battery mega factory

https://thedriven.io/2020/05/25/two-uk-battery-startups-eye-4-billion-ev-battery-gigafactory/
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on June 08, 2020, 04:51:42 PM
Contemporary Amperex Technology are ready to manufacture a 2 million kilometre/16 year battery. It was previously reported that the battery was co-developed with Tesla.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on June 08, 2020, 06:12:50 PM
Another scrappage scheme could make the EVs more affordable https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/uk-government-launch-new-car-scrappage-scheme but will it help those who haven't got a very old car but would like to move to newer technology?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on June 08, 2020, 07:53:01 PM
Very few people who make use of the scrappage schemes can buy a new EV. Those that can afford an EV may buy a banger from the auction and scrap that if the programme pays enough.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on June 08, 2020, 08:25:11 PM
Very few people who make use of the scrappage schemes can buy a new EV. Those that can afford an EV may buy a banger from the auction and scrap that if the programme pays enough.

IIRC scrappage scheme rules are you have to own the vehicle for a while before you can trade it in, normally between 3 and 6 months depending on which company you are dealing with.  As with normal cars,  fuel costs normally only comes in to equation if you cover a decent number of annual miles, which is why I could never understand school run moms buying Diesel cars,  obviously were not worried about the effect of NOx and particulates on their kids health...

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on June 08, 2020, 08:30:32 PM
Another scrappage scheme could make the EVs more affordable https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/uk-government-launch-new-car-scrappage-scheme but will it help those who haven't got a very old car but would like to move to newer technology?

Hmmm, doesn't quite make sense to me. Autocar seem optimistic that the scheme will include buying new hybrids because the EV market is still too small to make a pure-EV scheme worthwhile (because without the charging infrastructure, pure EVs are not practical for a large part of the motoring public) ... but why would the government want to encourage people to buy hybrids that're going to be banned in 12 years time? If that ban is to improve air quality and reduce carbon emissions, surely they'd want to phase out combustion engines as early as possible, not encourage people to buy them? Still, if it does include hybrids, £6k off a Mk4 Jazz would make it almost affordable after all.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on June 08, 2020, 10:52:39 PM
...but why would the government want to encourage people to buy hybrids that're going to be banned in 12 years time?

Are they? Wasn’t aware of that.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on June 08, 2020, 11:07:09 PM
They won't be banned, just not able to buy a new one.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on June 09, 2020, 05:16:21 AM
...but why would the government want to encourage people to buy hybrids that're going to be banned in 12 years time?

Are they? Wasn’t aware of that.

Oops, sorry, loose phrasing. Jocko is correct, it’s the sale of new hybrids that will be banned. This forms part of HMG’s plan to reduce carbon emissions. Doesn’t really change the point I was trying to make though, which is why would they encourage the take-up of something they want to get rid of?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on June 09, 2020, 09:19:07 AM
...but why would the government want to encourage people to buy hybrids that're going to be banned in 12 years time?

Are they? Wasn’t aware of that.

Oops, sorry, loose phrasing. Jocko is correct, it’s the sale of new hybrids that will be banned. This forms part of HMG’s plan to reduce carbon emissions. Doesn’t really change the point I was trying to make though, which is why would they encourage the take-up of something they want to get rid of?

Well actually, I hadn't picked up on the word 'banned', it was the fact that Hybrids will also be included with petrol and diesel engined cars that I missed. I thought hybrids would be on sale for a bit longer.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on June 09, 2020, 09:26:10 AM
Ah, so it was the news earlier this year where Hybrids were added to the list that I missed. Although from the article I link to here they are not consistently mentioned.

I have to say, as a driver of a hybrid, I think they do provide a good bridge to the world of fully electric but also allow you to cling on to perhaps outmoded ideas of what a car should be. What I mean by that is, for example, by buying my RAV4 hybrid I was able to cling on to me perceived need for a largish 4x4 whilst achieving much greater fuel consumption than a petrol version would and avoiding the nasties of a diesel. However, I should have probably faced up to the fact that I probably no longer need that type of vehicle. And also that the Toyota Hybrid system in my car is first or second generation and nothing like as efficient as their current models and the new Honda system.

I am seriously weighing up a new Jazz for next year and the hybrid only choice just makes things simpler and more attractive, although they can be very weird to drive. The complete lack of connection between engine noise and speed/acceleration really takes some getting used to.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-51366123
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on June 09, 2020, 09:30:30 AM
I see MG have confirmed plans to sell a 500km / 300+ miles range ZS, initially in India, by 2022...

https://insideevs.com/news/427054/mg-motor-500-km-range-zs-2022/
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 02, 2020, 01:17:34 PM
Saw a comment by a Spanish guy that the domestic power supply capacity in a lot of older Spanish dwellings is very low,  something like 3.3KW hardly enough for a UK kettle and not enough for an electric shower.  Then I found this article, where it can be upgraded to 5.5KW - hardly enough to charge an electric vehicle though.   I know article is a few years old,  but the other statistic is that 2/3 of Spanish people live in a flat / apartment.   https://tonysparksinspain.blogspot.com/2013/04/how-to-upgrade-electricity-supply.html
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 14, 2020, 03:39:40 PM
Looks like we have a functioning graphene battery.... charges faster,  runs cooler, has a much greater charge / discharge lifetime.  All from a few atoms of graphene included in regular lithium batteries. No increase in capacity at the moment although Samsung are working on a battery with 30% bigger capacity for same physical size for their phones. Tesla also working on EV batteries.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on September 03, 2020, 03:06:16 PM
Program on ITV tonight at 7-30pm 'are we ready for electric cars'... 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on September 04, 2020, 08:54:06 AM
Watched the ITV 'Tonight' program 'Are we ready for electric cars ' referred to in previous post this morning ( recorded ). The couple who were testing the car found it was taking roughly twice the time to do longer journeys than in a ICE car, and too many apps on chargers ( all worked differently ) some chargers were not working.  One of the main gripes is the sheer purchase cost of BEV - whether they save you money in the long run is also moot, typical cost of one journey was about £11 in petrol car, £9.50 in a diesel and just under £6 in a BEV,  ( but that was using home charging ) - all they said was 'cost would increase using charging points' without giving a typical figure  which is very telling,  as it may have been close to diesel journey cost....  The government will not give up the money from motorists and look out for road pricing or tax on electricity used to charge vehicles, 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on September 04, 2020, 09:39:30 AM
Last year I did a little thinking about getting a BEV. I discovered that while charging at home on a suitable tarriff (eg Octopus Go - 5p/kWh between 00:30 and 04:30) would give a running cost much cheaper than petrol or diesel the typical rate for using a public charger is 30p/kWh. At 4 miles per kWh this works out at 7.5p/mile. That's about the same as my Crosstar sets me back in petrol at £1.15 per litre. My conclusion was that while a BEV makes sense as a second car for the local trips (provided it can be charged at home on a cheap tariff) on longer journeys the higher vehicle cost isn't offset by a much lower running cost.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on September 04, 2020, 09:55:17 AM
Also a factoid in the program that you cannot tow an electric car as it damages the motors / electronic - so being as rescue services cannot charge the car you will need a proper truck to get the whole car on - damn.. any savings I might have made have just been wiped out by exorbitant cost of the rescue truck.  Maybe BEV car makers need to allow user to access the bottom part of battery that does not normally get used - but then again quite a few people will use that as 'normal' - so will not only still get stranded but damage the battery in the process.

I also have a picture in my mind that won't go away of the huge queues at charging areas on motorway services when BEV become more numerous, because motorways really knock the range back on BEV at normal speeds ( down to about 60% of claimed range ).   Seems to me BEV are better in urban areas with stop-go traffic but for longer journeys .... the jury is still out.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on September 04, 2020, 10:04:06 AM
I quoted this somewhere else but Which reckon only 14% of their members are thinking of a BEV for their next vehicle. This is interesting because that particular demographic which, on average, lashes out £31,000 on a new car, is probably more likely to go for  a BEV than the population at large.

There are still a lot of obstacles to overcome. Range is still an issue as is the ludicrous reliance on apps by many providers (that's changing but it's still a turn off). The roughly 30% of the population with no access to off street parking is another.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on September 04, 2020, 10:11:40 AM
If you want to tow anything, BEV is a bad choice

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/a30121167/electric-car-towing-range/
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on September 04, 2020, 01:26:32 PM
My wife relies on me to fill her Yaris with diesel.....(She NEVER checks the fuel level)
which makes me think..
how many people are going to forget to recharge their battery overnight ?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 04, 2020, 06:05:59 PM
Also a factoid in the program that you cannot tow an electric car as it damages the motors / electronic - so being as rescue services cannot charge the car you will need a proper truck to get the whole car on
Most recovery services just lift the driven wheels and that is all that a BEV requires. Unless it is 4x4.
Same likely to apply to any hybrid.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 04, 2020, 06:13:22 PM
Seemingly the majority of PHEV owners swap to a BEV for their next car.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on September 05, 2020, 09:40:41 AM
Seemingly the majority of PHEV owners swap to a BEV for their next car.

A lot of business users have been using PHEV in the past just for the tax breaks and being able to go into emission zones,  most never charged the battery. Now they will have to go full electric for tax and low emission zones, they are doing it for their bank account, not the planet  :o
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on September 05, 2020, 10:10:58 AM
I've heard that as well. I think it was my brother who told me - he had been into his local BMW dealer and was looking at a PHEV and he was told many business owners never charge the battery just taking the tax break. It was almost as if they were saying don't worry about the hassle of charging - you will never have to do it.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: VicW on September 06, 2020, 03:21:49 PM
For those interested in electric cars, I suppose we all need to be, there is an interesting report in this months copy of 'Top Gear' Magazine. It is a comparison between the Honda E, the Mini Cooper EV and the Peugeot E208.
The Honda E comes out on top.

Vic.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on September 07, 2020, 10:21:20 AM
The Honda E has had a very good reception from EV fans. It's range is quite limited but Honda are unapologetic saying that the E is a city car. It won't be long before they bring out a longer range car. By 2022 they won't sell anything that isn't either a hybrid or an EV.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on September 07, 2020, 12:14:37 PM
Program on ITV tonight at 7-30pm 'are we ready for electric cars'...
Got round to watching this yesterday. Partly because the presenter used to do the corporate TV channel for my employer back in the 1990s and I worked with her a couple of times.

On topic though, I wasn't sure about their choice of the couple to do test drives. Driving to London is not really a typical journey for me. If I was going that far, there would have to be a reason for me to have a car at my destination for me to drive it. Would use the train.

For me, the profile of an electric car needs to cover mostly local and cross county journeys (although Yorkshire is rather large) of around 100 miles total. But occasionally, and often with little planning, a day trip could involve a 200 mile round trip with some driving around at the destination. Range anxiety is going to creep in for me on that sort of trip.

Very rarely, say once a year, we might do a road trip. If that was to the Highlands then I would not really want to do that until charging infrastructure is much improved. Bit in this scenario, hiring a car could be an option. The days of having one car which can do every possible type of journey are probably over now, and I would never want more than one car for my personal use.

I think either reliable, trustable ranges of 300 miles or so, and/or a charging infrastructure which is widespread, functional, simple and rapid, are things which will define the tipping point for me.

I think we are close. Within 5 years maybe. But my next car will be a hybrid and probably leased on a fairly short term.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on September 07, 2020, 12:38:33 PM
The problem with BEV up to now has been the double whammy of high initial cost and massive depreciation ( good news for brave second hand buyers ) - according to this link hybrids are cheaper to buy new and retain a really good part of their value.

https://www.drivingelectric.com/your-questions-answered/624/electric-car-depreciation-will-electric-vehicles-lose-their-value
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TnTkr on September 07, 2020, 12:45:49 PM
Within the foreseeable development BEV will not work for me, at least not for the primary car. I regularly make 400 mile, sometimes even 600 mile one day trips without possibility to charge the batteries either due to the stops being too short or in off-grid areas.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 07, 2020, 01:27:18 PM
There are huge parts of the world where that will remain the case for decades. if not longer.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on September 08, 2020, 10:40:53 AM
Indeed. Especially sparsely populated areas where the charging infrastructure will not be cost effective. Russia, Australian outback, parts of Canada and the USA etc etc.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 08, 2020, 11:38:44 AM
And Finland.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TnTkr on September 08, 2020, 02:38:20 PM
And Finland.
:D ..and Sweden and Norway too.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on September 08, 2020, 08:30:50 PM
Hydrogen + fuel cell is the solution for longer range. The hydrogen can be produced when there's surplus electricity from wind, solar, ... and stored. It seems to work best with an on-vehicle battery as the fuel cell can then be sized to suit the average power requirement and the battery handles the fluctuations. And refuelling is quick.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TnTkr on September 09, 2020, 06:29:20 AM
Hydrogen + fuel cell is the solution for longer range. The hydrogen can be produced when there's surplus electricity from wind, solar, ... and stored. It seems to work best with an on-vehicle battery as the fuel cell can then be sized to suit the average power requirement and the battery handles the fluctuations. And refuelling is quick.
I agree. Hydrogen fuel cell seems technologically most feasible already now. Much more feasible than ICE PHEV, which is an overly complicated and expensive solution for converting fuel to electricity. The infrastructure for filling needs a lot investments, but there is an chicken-egg-problem. It's hard to sell cars it there is no places to fill the tank and no-one wants to start building the infrastructure if there are no customers.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on September 09, 2020, 09:31:36 AM
Hydrogen + fuel cell is the solution for longer range. The hydrogen can be produced when there's surplus electricity from wind, solar, ... and stored. It seems to work best with an on-vehicle battery as the fuel cell can then be sized to suit the average power requirement and the battery handles the fluctuations. And refuelling is quick.
I agree. Hydrogen fuel cell seems technologically most feasible already now. Much more feasible than ICE PHEV, which is an overly complicated and expensive solution for converting fuel to electricity. The infrastructure for filling needs a lot investments, but there is an chicken-egg-problem. It's hard to sell cars it there is no places to fill the tank and no-one wants to start building the infrastructure if there are no customers.

Hydrogen probably more applicable to buses and lorries than to cars, they can get pretty much normal range,  and limiting it to specific vehicles would cut down the number of filling places required,  There are already hydrogen powered commuter trains and buses in use.  Problem with using battery powered heavier vehicles is the sheer weight of the batteries means less payload can be carried,  and of course thermal management of such large batteries.

Metallic hydrogen really would be a game changer
https://www.nasa.gov/offices/oct/early_stage_innovation/niac/silvera_metallic_hydrogen.html
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TnTkr on September 09, 2020, 10:43:22 AM
Hydrogen probably more applicable to buses and lorries than to cars, they can get pretty much normal range,  and limiting it to specific vehicles would cut down the number of filling places required,  There are already hydrogen powered commuter trains and buses in use.
Are these buses you are referring to really using hydrogen in fuel cell to produce electricity for electric motors or burning hydrogen in internal combustion engine?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on September 09, 2020, 11:01:07 AM
My cousin's late husband spent his entire career in the motor industry. He was a mechanical engineer by training and had worked at Bedford trucks in Luton amongst others. He was a keen petrol head and after retirement kept in touch with the industry. I remember him telling me that many in the car industry saw BEVs as a transitional form of propulsion to get to zero emissions from transport. In the longer term something else would come in.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on September 09, 2020, 01:08:58 PM
I remember him telling me that many in the car industry saw BEVs as a transitional form of propulsion to get to zero emissions from transport. In the longer term something else would come in.
Agreed. I posted this in the 'Insane MPG' thread...

I think petrol and diesel are like VHS and Betamax.
Hydrogen Fuel Cell is probably Laser Disk.
Hybrid and PHEV is maybe DVD
BEV is probably BluRay.

What we are waiting for is the Netflix of motive power sources.
I think it will be in the form of pump-refillable tanks of ion loaded electric 'fuel' or some type of wonder battery.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on September 09, 2020, 01:44:48 PM
Hydrogen probably more applicable to buses and lorries than to cars, they can get pretty much normal range,  and limiting it to specific vehicles would cut down the number of filling places required,  There are already hydrogen powered commuter trains and buses in use.
Are these buses you are referring to really using hydrogen in fuel cell to produce electricity for electric motors or burning hydrogen in internal combustion engine?

Does it matter ? Either way only product is water.....

( will try to post links if I can find the articles again ).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48698532

https://www.smmt.co.uk/2017/11/birmingham-trial-20-hydrogen-buses/
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TnTkr on September 09, 2020, 04:30:05 PM
Are these buses you are referring to really using hydrogen in fuel cell to produce electricity for electric motors or burning hydrogen in internal combustion engine?

Does it matter ? Either way only product is water.....
Actually I think it matters a lot. Compared to hydrogen internal combustion engine, the fuel cell plug-in hybrid electric drive has minimal noice, vibration, it has remarkably better efficiency in converting fuel to electricity and it can improve total efficiency with regenerative deceleration, it has less weight and much less moving parts, need for lubrication and cooling, plus all the benefits of plug-in.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on September 09, 2020, 08:19:37 PM
Anyone have any thoughts on this?

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/sep/09/petrol-and-diesel-cars-could-cost-up-to-1500-more-under-proposals
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on September 09, 2020, 08:24:34 PM
Anyone have any thoughts on this?

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/sep/09/petrol-and-diesel-cars-could-cost-up-to-1500-more-under-proposals

A badly thought out scheme like that would mean people would hang on to their older more polluting vehicles for longer, I know I would.. I am beginning to think Shapps has lost it...
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on September 09, 2020, 09:10:37 PM
The Law of Unintended Consequences


Forcing petrol stations to include electric chargers?   Some will close..it is not that profitable..

Written by out of touch morons..
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 09, 2020, 09:50:02 PM
A badly thought out scheme like that would mean people would hang on to their older more polluting vehicles for longer, I know I would.
People who buy new cars wouldn't. Most want their new car so much that £1500 would make no difference. That is obvious when you look at the tax on new SUVs and the like. New car buyers are different from motorist like you and me, that think about the depreciation and would buy a two or three-year-old car over a new one.
If the £1500 was a tax on all car sales, new or secondhand (like a motoring Stamp Duty), then I would agree with you. We would hold onto our old cars longer.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on September 10, 2020, 05:28:22 AM
Electric only cars are only any good for local journeys where you can return home and recharge overnight.

Also, don't believe the mileage in brochures. A friend has a Jag iPace and the only way he can get the published 225 miles is to drive with everything off, headlights, wipers, radio, aircon, etc. In a normal week with standard usage he's only getting 150 to 175 miles depending on time of day and weather.

He also has to park 2 miles from his office and get a bus as there are no charging points.

When/if electric is forced then how will drivers find a charging point without a queue for the min half hour charge to do another 50 miles or so.

It's a joke.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 10, 2020, 06:59:20 AM
Like all cars EV's return range figures depending on how they are driven. My last ten top-ups with my Mk1 averaged 60.2 mpg and my average for the past four years is the figure beside my avatar. I bet there are very few Mk1's out there getting near that figure. The same is true for EV's. I'd love to see what sort of range I could manage with my driving style.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TnTkr on September 10, 2020, 08:25:12 AM
Actually I think it matters a lot. Compared to hydrogen internal combustion engine, the fuel cell plug-in hybrid electric drive has minimal noice, vibration, it has remarkably better efficiency in converting fuel to electricity and it can improve total efficiency with regenerative deceleration, it has less weight and much less moving parts, need for lubrication and cooling, plus all the benefits of plug-in.

I was writing this rather quickly on a coffee break with my smartphone. Now I'd like to further open the benefits of this HFCPHEV (just invented a handy acronym for Hydrogen Fuel Cell Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle) compared to hydrogen fuelled piston engine and conventional drivetrain. As I see it.

- Electric drive gives nice smooth torque from start to top speed without gear changes.
- Plug-in enables using possibly cheaper mains electricity or even solar electricity directly from the panels without any taxes and third party business profits.
- Better efficiency enables smaller tanks or longer range and reduces operating costs.
- Fuel cells can be placed without limitations of the mechanical driveline, which allows optimizing the internal space.
- Fuel cells require much less volume and weigh less than piston engine with auxiliaries. This enables improved volume and weight efficiency in the car. --> Smaller cars require less space on road and parking.
- With a clean fuel like hydrogen the fuel cells need maintenance next to nothing.
- When production rates increase, fuel cells should be much cheaper than piston engines with all needed auxiliaries.
- Less noise and vibration is good both for the neighborhood and for the passengers.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on September 10, 2020, 08:36:21 AM
Don't know about the handy acronym. ::)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TnTkr on September 10, 2020, 08:43:42 AM
Don't know about the handy acronym. ::)
;D Indeed! That was a lousy attempt to be funny. I work in such sector, which is overly saturated with acronyms, of which no-one can get any idea without the list of acronyms.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on September 10, 2020, 09:51:51 AM
How about Full Electric Clean Keep Off Fossil Fuels.

Handily abbreviates to FECKOFF
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on September 10, 2020, 09:57:37 AM
Anyone have any thoughts on this?

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/sep/09/petrol-and-diesel-cars-could-cost-up-to-1500-more-under-proposals
Right idea but wrong way of implementing it. The surcharge for fossil fuels (if there need to be one) should be based on usage, not initial purchase of the vehicle. Otherwise people will not be incentivised to eventually replace their existing vehicle. So slap more on fuel tax, VED and insurance if you have to. This proposal will just result in an ever ageing and increasingly more polluting fleet of fossil fuel vehicles.

And by the way, BEVs charged from the grid are fossil fuelled to a large degree. Even Drax power station, which burns wood pellets which aren't fossil originated, gets those pellets from the USA where they are then shipped by diesel powered boats and trains to the power plant.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on September 11, 2020, 02:10:28 PM
Actually I think it matters a lot. Compared to hydrogen internal combustion engine, the fuel cell plug-in hybrid electric drive has minimal noice, vibration, it has remarkably better efficiency in converting fuel to electricity and it can improve total efficiency with regenerative deceleration, it has less weight and much less moving parts, need for lubrication and cooling, plus all the benefits of plug-in.

I was writing this rather quickly on a coffee break with my smartphone. Now I'd like to further open the benefits of this HFCPHEV (just invented a handy acronym for Hydrogen Fuel Cell Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle) compared to hydrogen fuelled piston engine and conventional drivetrain. As I see it.

- Electric drive gives nice smooth torque from start to top speed without gear changes.
- Plug-in enables using possibly cheaper mains electricity or even solar electricity directly from the panels without any taxes and third party business profits.
- Better efficiency enables smaller tanks or longer range and reduces operating costs.
- Fuel cells can be placed without limitations of the mechanical driveline, which allows optimizing the internal space.
- Fuel cells require much less volume and weigh less than piston engine with auxiliaries. This enables improved volume and weight efficiency in the car. --> Smaller cars require less space on road and parking.
- With a clean fuel like hydrogen the fuel cells need maintenance next to nothing.
- When production rates increase, fuel cells should be much cheaper than piston engines with all needed auxiliaries.
- Less noise and vibration is good both for the neighborhood and for the passengers.
And I would add that, if combined with a battery, a fuel cell can be sized to suit the average power requirement (plus a margin) rather then the maximum power requirement, as the battery can help meet any demand for extra power (similar to what the Mk. 4 Jazz) plus take advantage of regeneration when accelerating.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/sep/09/petrol-and-diesel-cars-could-cost-up-to-1500-more-under-proposals
Right idea but wrong way of implementing it. The surcharge for fossil fuels (if there need to be one) should be based on usage, not initial purchase of the vehicle. Otherwise people will not be incentivised to eventually replace their existing vehicle. So slap more on fuel tax, VED and insurance if you have to. This proposal will just result in an ever ageing and increasingly more polluting fleet of fossil fuel vehicles.
I totally agree. The strategy should be to encourage less use of fossil fuels by pushing up the cost. Higher fuel costs might also encourage drivers to moderate their speed. Money raised from higher fuel taxes could then be used to subsidise hybrid or battery vans of which there are currently few but, judging by the number of vans on the roads, usually in a hurry, they must represent more than their fair share of emissions. If the government wants a reason to hike the fuel taxes then I would call it the "air quality levy" and whack twice as much on diesel as on petrol.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on September 14, 2020, 01:22:06 PM
Like all cars EV's return range figures depending on how they are driven. My last ten top-ups with my Mk1 averaged 60.2 mpg and my average for the past four years is the figure beside my avatar. I bet there are very few Mk1's out there getting near that figure. The same is true for EV's. I'd love to see what sort of range I could manage with my driving style.

I think that's right. My pal gets up to 100 miles on his 24 kwh Leaf in the summer. He spends a lot of his time behind lorries on the motorway but, more generally, adopts a conservative driving style.

Just got back from 3 nights in Pickering, North Yorkshire. At the White Swan Inn where we stayed they had 2 Tesla charge points and one for other EVs with Chademo and/or Type 2 chargers. This was only a small hotel so top marks to them.

From home to Pickering was 115 miles. On the Saturday we did about 35 miles visiting Castle Howard. This whole trip would have been comfortably "doable" in, say, the new Renault Zoe with its 50 kwh battery with one overnight charge.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on September 18, 2020, 08:58:44 PM
This explains why batteries are still 'rubber buckets' with inaccuracies  in charging and discharging that can be cumulative, and the battery level indicator can not be seen as a ' fuel gauge' in the sense we are used to with ICE.

https://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/article/inner_workings_of_a_smart_battery
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 19, 2020, 07:35:22 PM
Auto Express has chosen the Tesla Model 3 as the best Electric car for 2020.

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/tesla/model-3/104187/tesla-model-3-best-electric-cars (https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/tesla/model-3/104187/tesla-model-3-best-electric-cars)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 01, 2020, 10:15:03 PM
Good Honda e video.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 02, 2020, 08:11:43 AM
West Midlands trialing battery powered ambulances, claimed range just over 100 miles (in BEV speak that means 70 ) and over 4 hours to recharge,  so if someone critically ill and needs to go to a specialist hospital guess what - probably gonna have to call for a good old diesel if hospital is more than about 30 miles.... I wonder if the ambulance has a back-up Honda generator to keep all the life support stuff going when battery goes flat,  and ambulances have to be kept warm as well - where is that power coming from.. Would like to know how much it cost compared to a normal ICE ambulance. Who are the relatives going to sue when the first patient dies, the ambulance maker, the local authority, the health trust or the crew for not keeping the battery charged ?   I would have thought emergency vehicles would be exempt from emission zone regs... after all they are such a small % of journeys.

https://www.commercialfleet.org/news/van-news/2020/10/01/west-midlands-to-trial-vcs-s-new-electric-ambulance

https://www.commercialfleet.org/news/van-news/2020/10/01/west-midlands-to-trial-vcs-s-new-electric-ambulance
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on October 02, 2020, 09:01:34 AM
Tesla ...... hmmm ....

Quote
Tesla worst for reliability in American driver survey
Other American brands came out top

ELECTRIC car company Tesla has ranked last for reliability in American survey of more than 87,000 buyers and lessees of new cars.

The J.D. Power US Initial Quality Study, which gauges problems encountered in the first three months of ownership, included Tesla for the first time in 2020. It was separated from the other brands, however, as the Elon Musk-founded firm reportedly wouldn’t allow its customers to be surveyed in 15 of America’s 50 states, meaning that it didn’t meet the study’s ranking eligibility criteria.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 02, 2020, 09:18:59 AM
Tesla ...... hmmm ....

Quote
Tesla worst for reliability in American driver survey
Other American brands came out top

ELECTRIC car company Tesla has ranked last for reliability in American survey of more than 87,000 buyers and lessees of new cars.

The J.D. Power US Initial Quality Study, which gauges problems encountered in the first three months of ownership, included Tesla for the first time in 2020. It was separated from the other brands, however, as the Elon Musk-founded firm reportedly wouldn’t allow its customers to be surveyed in 15 of America’s 50 states, meaning that it didn’t meet the study’s ranking eligibility criteria.

Does not surprise me in the least Tesla build quality is pants,  that is what happens when a software guy tries to build cars.  With software they are used to releasing beta versions and then fixing them up with patches as the problems show up,  may not be such a great business model with cars.  My only surprise is that more people have not been killed in Tesla cars - if Ralph Nader was around now he would have a field day with Tesla.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on October 02, 2020, 09:49:45 AM
Tesla ...... hmmm ....
Which? is also damning about Tesla's reliability but the problems seem to be with build quality and components such as malfunctioning door handles with the underlying powertrain very reliable. As for software, Tesla delivers updates over-the-air which is a big step ahead of the other manufacturers.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on October 02, 2020, 10:50:57 AM
Updates over the air

I wonder if it's clever enough to only update when the car is stationary, see where I'm coming from :)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on October 02, 2020, 11:20:03 AM
Updates over the air

I wonder if it's clever enough to only update when the car is stationary, see where I'm coming from :)
A very good point but I think the vehicle knows when it's parked at home in the middle of the night. The update can be downloaded at any time but I assume that it won't get applied unless the vehicle is parked. It might prompt for an OK from the owner - the answer is most likely here somewhere https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/ . I've got a Tesla Powerwall Battery which does its updating during the night - typically takes about 10 minutes during which period it's offline.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on October 02, 2020, 11:24:13 AM
West Midlands trialing battery powered ambulances, claimed range just over 100 miles (in BEV speak that means 70 ) and over 4 hours to recharge,  so if someone critically ill and needs to go to a specialist hospital guess what - probably gonna have to call for a good old diesel if hospital is more than about 30 miles.... I wonder if the ambulance has a back-up Honda generator to keep all the life support stuff going when battery goes flat,  and ambulances have to be kept warm as well - where is that power coming from.
This would seem to me to be another vehicle which could best use a hybrid fuel cell + battery system so it becomes a self-charging hybrid with the option of plug-in when at base. 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on October 02, 2020, 12:50:50 PM
Hybrids aren’t necessarily a universal panacea. The company that runs the buses here in Bath introduced hybrids a couple of years ago to much fanfare, but earlier this year the MD went on record to say they didn’t live up to the promise:
https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/news/somerset-news/bath-needs-transport-revolution-electric-4350090
Excerpt:
We had hybrid electric buses in Bath. They are completely unequal to the task. They had to be withdrawn and reengineered. The hills couldn’t be conquered by them.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on October 02, 2020, 01:45:48 PM
Hybrids aren’t necessarily a universal panacea. The company that runs the buses here in Bath introduced hybrids a couple of years ago to much fanfare, but earlier this year the MD went on record to say they didn’t live up to the promise:
https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/news/somerset-news/bath-needs-transport-revolution-electric-4350090
Excerpt:
We had hybrid electric buses in Bath. They are completely unequal to the task. They had to be withdrawn and reengineered. The hills couldn’t be conquered by them.

That is surely a damming indictment of the selection process?
I would have thought real life testing of at least one hybrid would have been needed.. especially knowing the hills in Bath.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on October 02, 2020, 03:49:14 PM
That is interesting about the hills. I live near the top of a long hill and it is very hilly wherever I go within 5 or 10 miles from home. The weedy battery in my car is really only designed to go for a mile or so on the flat and even out progress the rest of the time. On any significant hill it is petrol all the way and this engine is not built for efficiency I believe as the mpg I get on hills is atrocious. Conversely, the battery can only capture so much charge on a long downhill before it gets full and then all that potential energy is wasted. One of the reasons I would like to go for a PHEV next time as I think it would cope better.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on October 02, 2020, 10:39:07 PM
However, there's a difference between the engine not having enough power to get up the hills if the battery is low and the engine not being at peak efficiency when having to work hard. Whoever chose the hybrid buses for Bath should know that the city centre is in the bottom of a valley with hills to north and south. Those buses would probably be happy in Swindon where the hills are more modest.

Manufacturers probably design for what they think is the best balance between performance and cost based on average conditions. Doubling the battery capacity, for example, might only increase the overall efficiency by 10% in average usage but give a much bigger benefit in hilly terrain.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on October 03, 2020, 06:54:11 AM
That is interesting about the hills. I live near the top of a long hill and it is very hilly wherever I go within 5 or 10 miles from home. The weedy battery in my car is really only designed to go for a mile or so on the flat and even out progress the rest of the time. On any significant hill it is petrol all the way and this engine is not built for efficiency I believe as the mpg I get on hills is atrocious. Conversely, the battery can only capture so much charge on a long downhill before it gets full and then all that potential energy is wasted. One of the reasons I would like to go for a PHEV next time as I think it would cope better.

Same issues here. I live 25% up a very long hill - over 1 mile long  and 150meters height rise..
Test drove a Prius years ago and found similar issues with fuel consumption as the battery recharges only for 1 mile...
When the engine was cold and the battery discharged, fuel consumption going up the hill was less than 20mpg..  (My Jazz is similar)..

And regenerative braking stops working after 0.5miles or so when the battery is full.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 03, 2020, 08:04:57 AM
However, there's a difference between the engine not having enough power to get up the hills if the battery is low and the engine not being at peak efficiency when having to work hard. Whoever chose the hybrid buses for Bath should know that the city centre is in the bottom of a valley with hills to north and south. Those buses would probably be happy in Swindon where the hills are more modest.

Manufacturers probably design for what they think is the best balance between performance and cost based on average conditions. Doubling the battery capacity, for example, might only increase the overall efficiency by 10% in average usage but give a much bigger benefit in hilly terrain.

Problem with batteries they are heavy - and in commercial vehicles you have to be careful that the battery weight does not impact the payload you can carry - even the Outlander PHEV carries about 350 to 400kg batteries around - good for about 18miles from fully charged ( I know 2 people who had them as company cars,  but they rarely charged the battery anyway,  and were happy with the 30mpg  they normally got due to company paying for fuel while they pocketed the BIK ).   With batteries they don't get lighter as they discharge,  unlike an ICE fuel tank, which does, and for a lot more range is still a lot lighter when full due to high energy content of petroleum based fuels ).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on October 07, 2020, 06:27:26 AM
Read this article about the e Peugeot 208

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/peugeot/peugeot-e-208-long-term-test-car-finally-convince-electric-way/

Full of gushing praise.
Then compare the official range (217 miles) , what she actually achieves (160miles) and think what will happen in winter..


And wonder why she gushes so much...

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 07, 2020, 06:56:22 AM
And wonder why she gushes so much...
A lot depends on what you use your car for. 160 miles and half that in winter would ably fit my electric car requirements. If I were up and down the country, doing lots of miles every day, I'd have a diesel.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on October 07, 2020, 07:46:58 AM
I need a car with a 170 mile range  -in winter..

Not often

But I go to Kilmarnock to see brother every year  or so  . Stay overnight   approx 400 mile round trip

And I go to a Bee show in March and come back laden with cheap equipment 160 mile round day trip. Showground with no charging facilities and 10,000 other show visitors so even if there were facilities they would be swamped.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 07, 2020, 08:37:03 AM
My plan, when/if I get an electric car, is to hire a car for the odd times I need long-range. I cannot think, these days when that would be, but the need may arise. I had a mate who worked in town, liked the pub, shopped local, didn't own a car and hired a car every year for his summer hols in Wales. Made great financial sense.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on October 07, 2020, 08:47:27 AM
I need a car with a 170 mile range  -in winter.
Maybe the Kia e-Niro which claims 282 miles would meet your requirements https://www.kia.com/uk/new-cars/e-niro/ ?

I noticed when looking through the September 2020 SMMT sales data that MG had more than doubled their sales compared to the previous year https://www.smmt.co.uk/vehicle-data/car-registrations/. I wonder if this vehicle https://www.whatcar.com/mg-motor-uk/zs-ev/hatchback/review/n20171 is selling well as it's competitively priced.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: springswood on October 09, 2020, 08:42:47 AM
I think hiring an ICE car when needed makes a lot of sense. Now our kid has moved to Portugal he hires one when he comes to visit. He always seems to find amazing deals on-line.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on October 09, 2020, 08:52:45 PM
The problem I have with some rental cars is that they have got the lights and wipers control stalks the wrong way round compared to what I'm used to and this results in an intention to indicate to turn results in the wipers operating, or vice-versa.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest4871 on October 09, 2020, 09:29:07 PM
The problem I have with some rental cars is that they have got the lights and wipers control stalks the wrong way round compared to what I'm used to and this results in an intention to indicate to turn results in the wipers operating, or vice-versa.

So much is standardised on different manufacturers cars now, I cannot understand why they cannot agree on which side the stalkers should be  :(  . Even different Japanese manufacturers put them on different sides.  ::)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 09, 2020, 10:35:53 PM
It's 30 years since I have driven a vehicle with the stalks opposite to what is on the Jazz.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: equaliser on October 09, 2020, 10:46:29 PM
The problem I have with some rental cars is that they have got the lights and wipers control stalks the wrong way round compared to what I'm used to and this results in an intention to indicate to turn results in the wipers operating, or vice-versa.

John, can I ask when you last hired a car in the UK? I haven't seen any cars with this problem in 30 years. Japanese and Korean cars from the 80s were the last to have the stalk controls switched.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on October 10, 2020, 04:42:23 PM
John, can I ask when you last hired a car in the UK? I haven't seen any cars with this problem in 30 years. Japanese and Korean cars from the 80s were the last to have the stalk controls switched.
It's a long while since I rented a vehicle in the UK but last year I drove a Toyota Corolla in New Zealand for a week and that had the stalks switched.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 10, 2020, 06:10:00 PM
It must be designed that way for NZ as the UK models are the same as the Jazz as page 191 of the manual shows.

https://www.toyota.com/t3Portal/document/om-s/OM02535U/pdf/OM02535U.pdf (https://www.toyota.com/t3Portal/document/om-s/OM02535U/pdf/OM02535U.pdf)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest4871 on October 10, 2020, 07:11:14 PM
In the last twenty years (I can't remember before that) I have had four cars two on one side, two on the other. And now both my current cars, both Japanese, have the stalks on opposite sides.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 12, 2020, 04:55:12 PM
Midlothian Council is introducing charges for it's, till now, free charging points. Dearest will be Rapid chargers at  30p/kW which works out about £6/100 miles. Fast and Slow chargers will be about half that price.

https://www.midlothianadvertiser.co.uk/news/people/rising-costs-spark-end-free-midlothian-council-electric-vehicle-charging-points-3000750 (https://www.midlothianadvertiser.co.uk/news/people/rising-costs-spark-end-free-midlothian-council-electric-vehicle-charging-points-3000750)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 12, 2020, 08:54:01 PM
There has been a honeymoon period for BEV, but no way will the councils and government continue to subsidize them, especially when income from road tax, fuel duty etc starts to dry up.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 18, 2020, 10:48:22 AM
According to UK grid portal since Thursday the UK ( in a period of medium demand ) has had to rely over 85% on Gas, nuclear and biomass and French nuclear via channel cable.  Looks like the expensive ornamental fans on sticks failed completely ( despite the government keep telling us UK is the 'wind capital of the world' - more like the hot air capital ).  Germany still generating from coal,  in fact recently commissioned lignite ( dirty brown coal ) power stations.  What would have happened if weather had been colder like it was a few years ago when we almost ran out of gas and Russians embarrassed us by sending us a gas tanker and demand was over 49GW.  Fans on sticks should be consigned to garden ornaments, solar panels are OK for garden fairy lights but if we intend to be a self powered industrial country we need a stable power supply that does not depend on the whims of nature. If UK was a sailing ship,  for the past 4 days we have been becalmed in the doldrums.  Germany has it right,  they protect their power supply and industry by building massive 'conventional' backup capacity for the 'whim of nature' renewables,  in the UK we spend billions on renewables and cross our fingers - and no plan B.

see attached PDF
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 18, 2020, 11:48:06 AM
The problem with wind turbines is we don't have storage. That is what we should be spending money on. The hundred-odd turbines around me have been going great guns the past few days. Perhaps it is time Scotland severed connection with England in more ways than one.  ;D
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 18, 2020, 12:21:23 PM
The problem with wind turbines is we don't have storage. That is what we should be spending money on. The hundred-odd turbines around me have been going great guns the past few days. Perhaps it is time Scotland severed connection with England in more ways than one.  ;D

4 days of storage capacity is a big ask - especially in winter when demand can be >40GW

As I have said before with nuclear you build the capacity you want and maybe a spare power station to allow others to be off-line for upgrades or maintenance.  With renewables you build 10x the capacity you need in the hope that in bad times you may get something near the capacity you need,  but in reasonable or good times you are paying people NOT to produce anything. 

( PS Scotland has a much bigger economic deficit than Greece,  who are the basket case of Europe,  also do not have a currency off their own... you cut off the southward supply of electricity, we cut off the northward flow of money and a hard border at Gretna - and decide who you will sell all this excess electrical power to without moving it over English soil - I have been reading rumours that places like Orkney and Shetland have had enough of SNP and want to be separate from Scotland -  and Boris can give them an Indyref ). 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on October 28, 2020, 08:44:17 PM
As I might have already noted here or elsewhere, the surplus erratic wind energy could be used for generating hydrogen, which we'll most likely be using as a fuel (transport and heating) and that hydrogen can be stored and transported by pipelines. I recall that Boris is dreaming of wind turbines off the Outer Hebrides where he thinks the wind is always blowing. I don't know if that's true as I haven't been there.

However, that leaves us with the problem of where to get carbon-free electricity when the wind isn't blowing or the sun shining. Wave and tidal energy are much more reliable and we have plenty of access to it. However, this seems to be too invisible to excite the politicians. That leaves nuclear as the only option but there seems to be a lot of foot-dragging as it isn't cheap. However, if the need to create backup for unreliable renewable energy is charged against those unreliable sources then the costing would look different.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 28, 2020, 09:09:12 PM
Outer Hebrides. Not a lot of trees. Why not? Too windy.

(https://i1.wp.com/wildatartscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/the-many-lochs-of-north-uist-ms-e1546939714287.jpg?resize=1818%2C702&ssl=1)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on October 28, 2020, 11:53:30 PM
There is a great deal of wind throughout the Highlands and west of Scotland, and indeed the the west of Ireland, and is largely uninterrupted throughout the autumn and winter. Wind turbines in these areas can produce 3 times the annual output of similar turbines further south.

As I might have already noted here or elsewhere, the surplus erratic wind energy could be used for generating hydrogen, which we'll most likely be using as a fuel (transport and heating) and that hydrogen can be stored and transported by pipelines.

That hydrogen can also be turned back into electricity on demand. This is already being done in a small scale in Orkney, where surplus wind power generated hydrogen is used to power ferries while in dock, as well as powering a fleet of council vans and school heating systems.

Tidal turbines are another technology being developed and trialled up there. Whilst there are many difficulties to be overcome, the amount of energy that could be harnessed is immense - and the moon is definitely not intermittent.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on October 29, 2020, 11:52:16 AM
Tidal turbines are another technology being developed and trialled up there. Whilst there are many difficulties to be overcome, the amount of energy that could be harnessed is immense - and the moon is definitely not intermittent.
The Orkney trial is called tidal https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-45246445 but is an unusual situation where it is possible to extract energy from a mass flow of water without having to impound it and may be difficult to replicate on a very large scale. Normally, tidal energy uses the twice daily (approx) change in water levels, eg the Severn barrage or Swansea bay lagoon proposals which has been feasible for years (eg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rance_Tidal_Power_Station ) but upsets the environmental lobby. Capturing wave energy seems somewhat more difficult https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_Hub but more encouragement by gov't could give it a shove in the right direction.

However,
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on October 29, 2020, 04:53:03 PM
Tidal turbines are another technology being developed and trialled up there. Whilst there are many difficulties to be overcome, the amount of energy that could be harnessed is immense - and the moon is definitely not intermittent.
The Orkney trial is called tidal https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-45246445 but is an unusual situation where it is possible to extract energy from a mass flow of water without having to impound it and may be difficult to replicate on a very large scale

Lots of other tidal flows between islands off the west coast.
The island races, involving sailing and running up the highest mountain on each are won not so much by the speed of the runners as by the skill of the sailors in interpreting the tidal charts.(or so my sailor friends tell me)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 03, 2020, 10:59:30 PM
A reliable source of clean energy,  better than fans on sticks....

https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2020/10/21/21515461/renewable-energy-geothermal-egs-ags-supercritical?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 06, 2020, 07:05:07 PM
Unreliable renewables,  who would have thought it....

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/gone-with-the-wind-why-electricity-shortages-are-becoming-the-norm?utm_medium=email&utm_source=CampaignMonitor_Editorial&utm_campaign=BLND%20%2020201106%20%20House%20Ads%20%20SM+CID_9bd4e395f3ba153f2ab24fdc183eba8c
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on November 06, 2020, 07:33:59 PM
I watch Gridwatch and strangely when it is overcast and the sun does not shine, renewables fall from 50% of output to 20odd %...

We have 39 Gas powered stations and they are producing 50% of demand. They will be closed when we are carbon neutral..
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 06, 2020, 08:40:44 PM
I watch Gridwatch and strangely when it is overcast and the sun does not shine, renewables fall from 50% of output to 20odd %...

We have 39 Gas powered stations and they are producing 50% of demand. They will be closed when we are carbon neutral..

Are candles carbon neutral ?

You can't run a country using fans on sticks for your power supply......
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: springswood on November 07, 2020, 07:41:31 AM
We might be better applying some creativity to this rather than just cold water.

Like storing energy in liquified air.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-54841528 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-54841528)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 07, 2020, 10:53:39 AM
Saw the tail end of a programme about the National Grid a night or two ago. They were talking about the Drax power station in Yorkshire. It's moving or has moved to using biomass and the programme indicated that there were no plans to close it.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on November 07, 2020, 11:48:03 AM
Saw the tail end of a programme about the National Grid a night or two ago. They were talking about the Drax power station in Yorkshire. It's moving or has moved to using biomass and the programme indicated that there were no plans to close it.

Drax have been converting to imported biomass for many years, and will stop burning coal altogether next year.

Many coal fired stations have been burning some proportion of biomass, the one near me was burning all sorts of wierd and wonderful things before it closed last year. Olive pressings was fairly regular, they burned them overnight and brown spots appeared on cars - they flat denied it, but we knew people that worked on the haulage... and you could smell it!

Willow and elephant grass is also grown locally for electricity generation.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on November 07, 2020, 12:11:37 PM
I've got my doubts about biomass too.
Renewable yes. Carbon neutral. I doubt it.
The argument for biomass is that replacement trees absorb carbon dioxide but trees grow slowly and wood can be burned quickly. Are the trees even replaced? They could be being cleared for building or agriculture

I think a lot of the wood comes in the form of pellets from USA. The wood is supposed to be scraps of waste wood but I suspect that much of it could be put to better use.
Transporting pellets from USA is hardly environmentally friendly either.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/environmentalaccounts/articles/aburningissuebiomassisthebiggestsourceofrenewableenergyconsumedintheuk/2019-08-30
Edit Changed link
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on November 07, 2020, 12:18:44 PM

Many coal fired stations have been burning some proportion of biomass, the one near me was burning all sorts of wierd and wonderful things before it closed last year.
Before it shut the Longannet power station was experimenting  with burning dried sewage.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 07, 2020, 02:22:18 PM
BOC and other gas companies have been making liquid air for a long, long time.

https://www.thegreenage.co.uk/tech/liquid-air-storage/``
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on November 07, 2020, 03:20:08 PM
Yep, the Biomass (wood) pellets for Drax come into Liverpool and are then loaded onto specially designated goods train which take the 'cheap route' through Rochdale and Calderdale to get to Drax, rather than the express line through Manchester and Huddersfield where they might risk delaying an airport express!

Before Lockdown 1.0, when I was commuting on the Calderdale line to Leeds, at 0630, my train would often be delayed by one of these Drax trains coming through. Far easier to stop a two coach commuter train than long goods train. You could smell the wood though, it was unmistakable and strangely evocative.

Quite eerie, standing on the platform at Sowerby Bridge as this train approached from the dark, pulling a minimum of 20 wagons of biomass. By the time the diesel engine had gone through and half a dozen wagons had passed, you could no longer hear the engine so wagon after wagon would go past very quietly and disappear again off into the gloom.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 07, 2020, 04:36:16 PM
Before it shut the Longannet power station was experimenting  with burning dried sewage.
That sounds a load of sh*t to me.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 07, 2020, 04:38:56 PM
BOC and other gas companies have been making liquid air for a long, long time.
Yes, but not to store energy.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on November 08, 2020, 11:32:33 AM
Transporting pellets from USA is hardly environmentally friendly either.

I agree, importing raw materials to burn from the the other side of the world has to be costly, both monetary and environmental.

Not only that, some of the sources of these pellets are somewhat murky, with some traced back to illegal logging being mixed in with certified sources. Some say that the vast size of the certified trade is encouraging illegal deforestation.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 14, 2020, 01:12:41 PM
The sale of new petrol and diesel cars will be banned within a decade, Boris Johnson is set to announce next week as part of a broader package of green initiatives.
In February, Mr Johnson announced that the existing ban on selling new petrol or diesel cars would be brought forward from 2040 to 2035.
Now the prime minister is expected to move the date forward to 2030 in an attempt to jump-start the market for electric cars in the UK and push Britain towards its climate goal, according to industry and Whitehall figures.
However, the government is expected to keep the less stringent date of 2035 for the phase-out of the sale of hybrid cars that plug in to charge.

Full article here: https://www.ft.com/content/5e9af60b-774b-4a72-8d06-d34b5192ffb4 (https://www.ft.com/content/5e9af60b-774b-4a72-8d06-d34b5192ffb4)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on November 14, 2020, 02:22:42 PM
This change from petrol/diesel will be another disaster.

How long will petrol/diesel still be available.

There are about 40 million cars curently so that's quite a few charging points needed to cater for even half that. Best of luck if you live and park along a long victorian terrace with no driveways.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 14, 2020, 06:23:24 PM
Looks like people being forced into BEV despite the fact that they are very expensive compared to normal ICE or hybrid. Charging infrastructure and power supply in UK still not up to supplying BEV charging requirements and government dragging their feet on building a good reliable base load supply with nuclear.  They will end up building coal fired power station like Germany and China.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on November 14, 2020, 06:44:38 PM
Looks like people being forced into BEV despite the fact that they are very expensive compared to normal ICE or hybrid. Charging infrastructure and power supply in UK still not up to supplying BEV charging requirements and government dragging their feet on building a good reliable base load supply with nuclear.  They will end up building coal fired power station like Germany and China.

Err 

No
Why do you think Smart Meters are being installed?

Forget the marketing fluff.

It's so when demand exceeds supply ,they can switch consumers off.

(they have admitted it. Sort of)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: springswood on November 15, 2020, 11:51:06 AM
I got the impression new nuclear stations are not getting built because they're fundamentally uneconomic. Multi billion pound projects keep falling through. It seems no one wants to take the financial risk.

The economics of renewables is very different. Capital costs are low and running costs virtually zero. So overcapacity and storage is feasible.

I'm not sure exactly why but something about Honda's decision to pull out of F1 engine supply brought it home to me that internal combustion engines are an obsolete technology. I think we're in a position similar to steam in the early 20th century. Early ICE cars weren't that great an alternative to steam transport in many ways. And the infrastructure needed to supplant it dwarfs that for electric transport. A petrol engine is starting to feel like an absurdly complex and inefficient way to power a car.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 15, 2020, 12:35:07 PM
This change from petrol/diesel will be another disaster.

How long will petrol/diesel still be available.

There are about 40 million cars curently so that's quite a few charging points needed to cater for even half that. Best of luck if you live and park along a long victorian terrace with no driveways.

It's a very good point - there sometimes seems to be an assumption that everybody has off road parking. I think what we will see, in time, is a bit of a mixed economy with a lot of charging at public charging stations being the norm for many people - this will be less onerous when range increases.

It will be interesting to see where we are in 5 years time.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on November 15, 2020, 12:49:48 PM
Here's something different. What about metal powders for energy storage and a renewable/recyclable fuel?

https://newatlas.com/energy/bavarian-brewery-carbon-free-renewable-iron-fuel
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on November 15, 2020, 01:02:14 PM
I think we're in a position similar to steam in the early 20th century. Early ICE cars weren't that great an alternative to steam transport in many ways. And the infrastructure needed to supplant it dwarfs that for electric transport. A petrol engine is starting to feel like an absurdly complex and inefficient way to power a car.

Yep. Back to the drawing board. Electric motors at each corner
https://insideevs.com/features/427978/electric-car-design-inspired-skateboard/
https://thegreencarguy.com/selling-their-skateboard-platform-is-new-goal-of-some-ev-makers/
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 15, 2020, 01:59:32 PM
Rolls Royce is talking about building 20 "local" nuclear power stations over the next few years. These are just modules that are built then delivered to site.

In future, I think the bulk of charging stations will be supermarket car parks. Every bay will be a charging point installed by the supermarket. Cost to the customer will be minimal (possibly even free). Much of the energy will be supplied by solar cells on the building roof with huge battery storage to maximise the use of the solar energy and to level out demand on the grid
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on November 15, 2020, 02:24:18 PM
Here's something different. What about metal powders for energy storage and a renewable/recyclable fuel?

https://newatlas.com/energy/bavarian-brewery-carbon-free-renewable-iron-fuel

Doesn't seem thermodynamically sound to me.
You get out the energy by combining the iron and the oxygen but if you want your iron back you've got to supply it with just as much energy (electrical) and then some.
If you don't reclaim the iron it means you are going to use up iron, which is a valuable raw material and could be put to better use.
Maybe I'm missing something.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on November 15, 2020, 02:37:37 PM
You get out the energy by combining the iron and the oxygen but if you want your iron back you've got to supply it with just as much energy (electrical) and then some.

If you have a surplus of energy from renewables, it's a method of storing that energy in a stable medium than could even be transported in bulk to where it's required.

We are currently dumping wind energy when demand is low and generation high. Wind power is very cheap, but it costs the national grid enormous sums to force generators to stop producing - we should explore all possible storage methods if we are serious about reducing carbon emissions.

They seem to think the process is 80% efficient, which seems a reasonable start, and the oxidation of metals produces zero carbon.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on November 15, 2020, 02:54:51 PM
You get out the energy by combining the iron and the oxygen but if you want your iron back you've got to supply it with just as much energy (electrical) and then some.

If you have a surplus of energy from renewables, it's a method of storing that energy in a stable medium than could even be transported in bulk to where it's required.

We are currently dumping wind energy when demand is low and generation high. Wind power is very cheap, but it costs the national grid enormous sums to force generators to stop producing - we should explore all possible storage methods if we are serious about reducing carbon emissions.

They seem to think the process is 80% efficient, which seems a reasonable start, and the oxidation of metals produces zero carbon.

I don't see that you can reduce the iron oxide to iron again without wasting vast amounts of energy.
At present iron oxide is reduced to iron by smelting using carbon as a reducing agent and resulting in massive pollution.
Aluminium oxide is reduced to aluminium electrically but it requires vast amounts of energy to melt the aluminium oxide as well as to electrolise the oxide.
Again it would be necessary to raise the iron oxide to a very high temperature to melt and  electrolyse it.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 15, 2020, 03:02:58 PM
Maybe I'm missing something.
How I read it is, yes it needs as much or more energy to turn it back into iron, but as long as the electricity is wind/solar, and gathered when there is a surplus of wind/solar energy then you are carbon-free. Burning the iron powder is done when you need heat energy, and the conversion is done at a suitable time when wind/solar energy is available.
If you were using it for heating a house, you could burn the iron powder in winter and reconstitute it in summer possibly using solar energy.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on November 15, 2020, 03:06:44 PM
Maybe I'm missing something.
How I read it is, yes it needs as much or more energy to turn it back into iron, but as long as the electricity is wind/solar, and gathered when there is a surplus of wind/solar energy then you are carbon-free. Burning the iron powder is done when you need heat energy, and the conversion is done at a suitable time when wind/solar energy is available.
If you were using it for heating a house, you could burn the iron powder in winter and reconstitute it in summer possibly using solar energy.
You are going to need a lot more energy to change the iron oxide to iron than you get by burning the iron
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10800-017-1143-5
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on November 15, 2020, 03:17:15 PM
Maybe I'm missing something.
How I read it is, yes it needs as much or more energy to turn it back into iron, but as long as the electricity is wind/solar, and gathered when there is a surplus of wind/solar energy then you are carbon-free. Burning the iron powder is done when you need heat energy, and the conversion is done at a suitable time when wind/solar energy is available.
If you were using it for heating a house, you could burn the iron powder in winter and reconstitute it in summer possibly using solar energy.

Exactly the point.

It's the same reason for converting surplus wind energy to hydrogen, instead of dumping - energy is consumed compressing the gas, but in periods of surplus, you would otherwise be effectively throwing the electricity away. Of course it costs energy to convert the electricity into fuel, but as the grid currently has to pay a penalty to disconnect wind farms from the grid, the electricity is effectively cheaper than free.

The big advantage with such materials is that they are stable for long periods and easily stored or transported.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 15, 2020, 03:18:20 PM
But if it is available and going to waste otherwise, then it is win, win even if it takes ten times the energy.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on November 15, 2020, 03:25:17 PM
Maybe I'm missing something.
How I read it is, yes it needs as much or more energy to turn it back into iron, but as long as the electricity is wind/solar, and gathered when there is a surplus of wind/solar energy then you are carbon-free. Burning the iron powder is done when you need heat energy, and the conversion is done at a suitable time when wind/solar energy is available.
If you were using it for heating a house, you could burn the iron powder in winter and reconstitute it in summer possibly using solar energy.

Exactly the point.

It's the same reason for converting surplus wind energy to hydrogen, instead of dumping - energy is consumed compressing the gas, but in periods of surplus, you would otherwise be effectively throwing the electricity away. Of course it costs energy to convert the electricity into fuel, but as the grid currently has to pay a penalty to disconnect wind farms from the grid, the electricity is effectively cheaper than free.

The big advantage with such materials is that they are stable for long periods and easily stored or transported.
That's true but how do you go about converting iron oxide to iron?   (Going the other way is easy)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on November 15, 2020, 03:34:41 PM
That's true but how do you go about converting iron oxide to iron?

That's for the boffins to work out.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0360128518300327

I just thought it was a different angle to the big problem, which is filling the gaps with intermittent generation methods.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on November 15, 2020, 03:41:48 PM

That's true but how do you go about converting iron oxide to iron?

That's for the boffins to work out.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0360128518300327

I just thought it was a different angle to the big problem, which is filling the gaps with intermittent generation methods.
I assume there must be something in it since they've gone as far as using it on a small industrial scale but I can't see it as sustainable.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on November 15, 2020, 04:48:42 PM
As for discontinuing petrol and diesel vehicle sales from 2030, I understand that this only is for non-hybrid vehicles. Hybrid vehicles can continue to be sold until 2035. One way or another there will still be ICE vehicles on the road until 2050 so the transition to BEVs isn't quite so hurried as the 2030 headline suggests.

Why do you think Smart Meters are being installed?

It's so when demand exceeds supply ,they can switch consumers off.

(they have admitted it. Sort of)
I've had a smart meter for several years and there's no way it could cut off my electricity as it doesn't include any switching capability. The main advantage of the smart meter is that the consumption is reported in half hour time steps so it's easy to change from a flat rate tariff to one which charges acording to the time of day and hence scarcity / abundance of cheaper power. I use the Octopus Go tariff https://octopus.energy/go/ (https://octopus.energy/go/) which costs 5p/kWh between 00.30 and 04.30. It doesn't need a separate meter like the old-fashioned Economy 7 but just uses the smart meter half hourly data. Smart metering and time-of-usage tariffs are one way to spread the peak demand on generation by making it easy and providing incentives to use electricity when it's cheaper.

However, we will also be herded towards electrically-powered heat pumps in order to reduce gas consumption so heating is likely to add to the morning and evening electricity peaks during cold weather. It''s easy to defer the car charging until the middle of the night but coming home from work and sitting in a cold house while waiting for the electricity price to drop won't be popular.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on November 15, 2020, 04:59:09 PM
With all these cars and heating charging overnight will overnight no longer be 'off peak'
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on November 15, 2020, 05:06:30 PM
I've had a smart meter for several years and there's no way it could cut off my electricity as it doesn't include any switching capability.

A moot point in this context, but smart meters do indeed have the capability to disconnect you by remote, but only for the purposes of cutting you off for unpaid bills, etc.. Once you have one fitted, they no longer need to enter your premises to do that.

They don't however, as some people are led to believe, have any way of knowing what circuits are using what electricity, they just guess from average household usage. Nor can they disconnect individual circuits of course.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on November 15, 2020, 05:10:35 PM
With all these cars and heating charging overnight will overnight no longer be 'off peak'

The difference in consumer peak and off-peak costs have been steadily reducing for years. About 20 years ago, off-peak E7 electricity cost less than 20% of the cost of peak electricity, it is now around 50%.

The new off peak will be in summer time afternoons when solar generation is at it's maximum,
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest4871 on November 15, 2020, 07:40:37 PM

Exactly the point.

It's the same reason for converting surplus wind energy to hydrogen, instead of dumping - energy is consumed compressing the gas, but in periods of surplus, you would otherwise be effectively throwing the electricity away. Of course it costs energy to convert the electricity into fuel, but as the grid currently has to pay a penalty to disconnect wind farms from the grid, the electricity is effectively cheaper than free.

The big advantage with such materials is that they are stable for long periods and easily stored or transported.

This is exactly what BP are doing in Germany.

"Oil supermajor BP (BP.) has signed a deal with the Danish power group Ørstead (DEN:ØRSTED) to develop a hydrogen project in Germany. The companies are planning a 50 megawatt facility that would use renewable energy from a wind farm in the North Sea. The hydrogen electrolyser, which splits water into hydrogen and oxygen, is still at the design stage. A final investment decision will come in 2022 and, if positive, operations will kick off in 2024. BP has said that it will grow its current renewable investment from around $500m (£377m) a year to $5bn a year by 2030. "

https://www.investorschronicle.co.uk/shares/2020/11/10/bp-announces-hydrogen-deal-after-vaccine-boost/
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on November 16, 2020, 12:38:31 PM
This is exactly what BP are doing in Germany.

"Oil supermajor BP (BP.) has signed a deal with the Danish power group Ørstead (DEN:ØRSTED) to develop a hydrogen project in Germany. The companies are planning a 50 megawatt facility that would use renewable energy from a wind farm in the North Sea. The hydrogen electrolyser, which splits water into hydrogen and oxygen, is still at the design stage...

There is already a conversion plant operating up in Orkney, albeit smaller scale, converting surplus energy to hydrogen - which is subsequently mainly used to run school heating and for producing electricity to maintain the inter-island ferry fleet while in dock.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on November 16, 2020, 12:40:10 PM
Here we go...

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/uk-government-considers-road-pricing-cover-ev-tax-shortfall

https://news.sky.com/story/road-pricing-sunak-eyes-40bn-tax-threat-from-electric-vehicle-drive-12133772
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on November 16, 2020, 01:23:08 PM
This is exactly what BP are doing in Germany.

"Oil supermajor BP (BP.) has signed a deal with the Danish power group Ørstead (DEN:ØRSTED) to develop a hydrogen project in Germany. The companies are planning a 50 megawatt facility that would use renewable energy from a wind farm in the North Sea. The hydrogen electrolyser, which splits water into hydrogen and oxygen, is still at the design stage...

There is already a conversion plant operating up in Orkney, albeit smaller scale, converting surplus energy to hydrogen - which is subsequently mainly used to run school heating and for producing electricity to maintain the inter-island ferry fleet while in dock.
[/quote]

The Orkney plant is using a new 1.8MW vanadium # battery to iron out the peaks and troughs in tidal energy production  .

# Produced by Invinity  Energy Systems plc
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: VicW on November 16, 2020, 02:31:17 PM
Here we go...

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/uk-government-considers-road-pricing-cover-ev-tax-shortfall

https://news.sky.com/story/road-pricing-sunak-eyes-40bn-tax-threat-from-electric-vehicle-drive-12133772

So our Chancellor finally realises the bleeding obvious but suggests setting up a new department to collect said tax which will cost money to run. It hasn't occurred to him to use the existing tax collecting agencies that cover road fund licence, fuel tax and VAT.

Vic.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on November 16, 2020, 03:04:42 PM
The Orkney plant is using a new 1.8MW vanadium # battery to iron out the peaks and troughs in tidal energy production  .

# Produced by Invinity  Energy Systems plc

Not yet it isn't, the flow battery is another part of the tidal test rig project which should come on stream next year.

https://www.current-news.co.uk/news/tidal-flow-batteries-and-green-hydrogen-combined-in-world-first-1-8m-orkney-project

The hydrolyser has been operating for a few years, producing hydrogen which is transported to the other islands by lorry tanker.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on November 16, 2020, 04:43:38 PM
So our Chancellor finally realises the bleeding obvious but suggests setting up a new department to collect said tax which will cost money to run. It hasn't occurred to him to use the existing tax collecting agencies that cover road fund licence, fuel tax and VAT.

Vic.

One thing for certain, with things as they are, it won't be revenue neutral.

I can see these costs being in addition to the existing duties for us poor ICE vehicle drivers.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on November 16, 2020, 05:02:55 PM
Firms agree Scotland to England renewable energy 'superhighway'

They've stolen our oil. Now they're going to steal our leccy  :o 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/nov/16/firms-agree-scotland-to-england-renewable-energy-superhighway
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on November 16, 2020, 06:36:24 PM
Firms agree Scotland to England renewable energy 'superhighway'

They've stolen our oil. Now they're going to steal our wind and waves.  :o 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/nov/16/firms-agree-scotland-to-england-renewable-energy-superhighway

Don't worry Jim, when independence comes, you'll be able to sell it to us... and add a bit on to make up for the oil.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 16, 2020, 06:48:26 PM
We'll sell you water too.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on November 16, 2020, 08:13:09 PM
We'll sell you water too.

We've got plenty of that already, and it's only November  :(
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on November 16, 2020, 11:26:14 PM


Don't worry Jim, when independence comes, you'll be able to sell it to us... and add a bit on to make up for the oil.

Will fit switch to cut off in event of non-payment.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 17, 2020, 06:52:51 AM
I see Tesla will join the S&P 500 in December, edging out J P Morgan Chase.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on November 18, 2020, 11:49:16 AM
Jings.  A ten point plan. If only they could harness hot air.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2260042-uk-10-point-climate-plan-bans-new-petrol-and-diesel-car-sales-by-2030/?utm_campaign=onesignal&utm_medium=alert&utm_source=editorial
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on November 18, 2020, 02:37:27 PM
I see that they propose to allow plug-in hybrids (which people often omit to plug in) until 2035 but, it appears, the self-charging hybrids won't be allowed. Given that the latter provide, for most users, a 20% or more improvement in fuel economy they are an attractive intermediate solution.

There still seems to be a big hole in the electricity generation capacity on a dull and calm winter's day until such time that there is sufficient new nuclear capacity to provide for such events. Then, given that nuclear is best left running except for the periodic inspection and maintenance, it's likely to result in a load of excess wind capacity on the days when the wind is blowing.

Of course, the other use for all those EVs with big batteries is to act as electricity storage. A fully-charged large EV battery could supply basic houseold needs for several days (although the heat pumps will change the energy requirement). It just needs to car manufacturers to build in a 230V socket for taking power from the car.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 18, 2020, 02:48:08 PM
230V socket for taking power from the car.
The Honda e has just such a thing.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 18, 2020, 02:56:50 PM
Rolls Royce plan to build up to 16 mini-nuclear plants over the next five years. Each plant would produce 440 megawatts of electricity.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-54703204 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-54703204)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on November 18, 2020, 04:55:56 PM
I see that they propose to allow plug-in hybrids (which people often omit to plug in) until 2035 but, it appears, the self-charging hybrids won't be allowed. 

The bizarre thing about this is that PHEVs are not particularly environmentally friendly, see this: www.bbc.com/news/amp/science-environment-54170207
One reason is that they are rarely plugged in, so most of the time they lug heavy batteries around unnecessarily. And when they do get plugged in, they p*ss off EV owners for taking a charging station that they don't really need.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on November 18, 2020, 05:40:56 PM
Rolls Royce plan to build up to 16 mini-nuclear plants over the next five years. Each plant would produce 440 megawatts of electricity.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-54703204 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-54703204)
The important words in that article are "The consortium says the first of these modular plants could be up and running in 10 years, after that it will be able to build and install two a year.".  ie we'll be lucky to see the first one producing electricity by 2030.

Also to note: "Six of the UK's seven nuclear reactor sites are due to go offline by 2030 and the remaining one, Sizewell B, is due to be decommissioned in 2035." However, Hinkley Point C might be producing electricity by 2025 but the builders don't seem to have a published completion date https://www.edfenergy.com/energy/nuclear-new-build-projects/hinkley-point-c/about (https://www.edfenergy.com/energy/nuclear-new-build-projects/hinkley-point-c/about) .
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kenneve on November 18, 2020, 06:52:53 PM
16 mini nuclear plants at 440 Mw each, equals around 7 Gw (today’s nuclear output was 5.85 Gw according to Gridwatch) which will just about cover the nuclear capacity that we are to lose in the next few years. So, where is all the extra capacity going to from, to power all these cars.
I foresee power cuts galore, not that I personally will still be around to experience them!!
It seems to these are more Government proposals that haven’t been thought through.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest4871 on November 18, 2020, 07:22:01 PM
If my arithmetic is "approximately" correct:

 "£582 million in grants for buying electric cars" = £15 - £20 per each car on the roads today.  ???

Yes, it does seem that these are more Government proposals that really haven’t been properly thought through.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 18, 2020, 07:41:03 PM
So, where is all the extra capacity going to from, to power all these cars.
According to the National Grid, we have sufficient generating capacity. Obviously, everyone will not be able to plug their EV in at 6 pm on a January evening, but with Smart Metering and Smart Chargers, they reckon it will not be an issue.

https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/5-myths-about-electric-vehicles-busted (https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/5-myths-about-electric-vehicles-busted)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on November 18, 2020, 08:33:44 PM
According to the National Grid, we have sufficient generating capacity. Obviously, everyone will not be able to plug their EV in at 6 pm on a January evening, but with Smart Metering and Smart Chargers, they reckon it will not be an issue.

https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/5-myths-about-electric-vehicles-busted (https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/5-myths-about-electric-vehicles-busted)
But what about all the electrically-powered heat pumps to be used to warm our homes? Many of those will be turned on to coincide with the evening peak. 5 million homes each using 2kW (potentially 6 to 8 kW of heat) is 10GW of electricity. Using hydrogen (generated when there is spare wind-generated electricity) instead of gas for heating would avoid this extra load on the electricity generation.

However, if people are happy to live near the nuclear reactors then these will have a lot of spare heat at a temperature suitable for house warming. The heat is free once all the pipework has been paid for.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 18, 2020, 08:57:22 PM
2 kW would certainly be less than I use at present, trying to heat my flat. And heat pumps in every home will take considerably longer than everyone driving EVs. New homes may be built with them, but the uptake among homeowners will be extremely slow. Unless gas boilers are made illegal to fit the price will be exorbitant for most people. An air-source heat pump for a detached house costs between £8,000 and £16,000, supplied and fitted. For families like mine, who live in a block of flats, only communal heating would be practical. There is not a lot of heat available from a window box.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on November 19, 2020, 08:52:03 AM
It all sounds great but is it any more likely than the 200000 affordable homes, 40 hospitals, assorted bridges, high speed railway, World- beating track and trace systems, oven ready deals that he has previously promised.
It looks to me like another grandiose, vague, uncosted, blue sky idea from the adolescent mind of our prime minister designed to fill the pockets of his consultant chums and look good for COP26.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on November 19, 2020, 11:21:07 AM
It all sounds great but is it any more likely than the 200000 affordable homes, 40 hospitals, assorted bridges, high speed railway, World- beating track and trace systems, oven ready deals that he has previously promised.
It looks to me like another grandiose, vague, uncosted, blue sky idea from the adolescent mind of our prime minister designed to fill the pockets of his consultant chums and look good for COP26.

He has to  have a Brexit deal first..

So No deal means big food price increases meaning unhappy voters.
And A Deal means many unhappy MPs.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 19, 2020, 01:27:32 PM
This is not a Brexit thread. This is Electric cars.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on November 19, 2020, 02:32:56 PM
This is not a Brexit thread.

As tempting as it may be, I think we'd better steer away from that topic.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on November 19, 2020, 02:37:45 PM
This is not a Brexit thread. This is Electric cars.

Apologies
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 19, 2020, 08:30:54 PM
We don't want Richard deleting it!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on November 20, 2020, 05:20:20 AM
I'm also intrigued about what method they are going to introduce for the proposed road pricing when fuel duty dries up. GPS, CCTV, both of which can and will be cheated.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 20, 2020, 07:02:03 AM
If the hackers can hack the Pope's Instagram account they will have no problem hacking a black box.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55011152 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55011152)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinS on November 20, 2020, 07:50:32 AM
I'm also intrigued about what method they are going to introduce for the proposed road pricing when fuel duty dries up. GPS, CCTV, both of which can and will be cheated.

Interesting.  Just renewed my road fund which is now over twice my yearly petrol costs.  Last time I filled the car was March.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 20, 2020, 08:15:36 AM
Wow. I pay about £1,300 a year on petrol. I fair whack out of my pension.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on November 20, 2020, 09:18:40 AM
Once we are all electric a cheaper model for the Gov than tracking would be to go back to square 1 and just charge a flat fair road fund licence fee.

Maybe hybrids a bit more and petrol/diesel a bit more again.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 20, 2020, 09:47:57 AM
I'd happily pay twice what I do in Road Tax than I do now if I didn't have to pay tax on the fuel I buy. The benefit of putting the tax on fuel is that those that do the most miles pay the most tax. Maybe they should stick it on alcohol instead. Not on Ethanol but Vodka and Whisky, wine and beer.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinS on November 20, 2020, 10:19:50 AM
Wow. I pay about £1,300 a year on petrol. I fair whack out of my pension.

Before "working from home" I was doing about the same as you Jocko and the vast majority was business mileage for which I could claim.  Based on that I purchased the car :(.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 20, 2020, 12:05:55 PM
That's why I got the Jazz. The Volvo was using twice as much, which was okay before I retired.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on November 20, 2020, 03:07:20 PM
I'm also intrigued about what method they are going to introduce for the proposed road pricing when fuel duty dries up. GPS, CCTV, both of which can and will be cheated.
Odometer reading at MOT?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on November 20, 2020, 03:44:08 PM
No tax for the first three years, then if you change your car every three years .......
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on November 20, 2020, 05:08:18 PM
Odometer reading at MOT?

Seems the obvious answer, but you can imagine illicit 'mileage correction' services becoming a bit more popular. Another answer is a system of tolling on trunk roads, similar to France - piling traffic onto minor roads...

Whatever system they come up with, some drivers will try to avoid paying.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on November 20, 2020, 06:01:58 PM
No tax for the first three years, then if you change your car every three years .......
Yearly check then.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 20, 2020, 07:11:29 PM
My brother was telling me he is thinking of replacing his BMW 320d with a BMW i3. It is perfect, or his motoring needs and he has off-road parking in a huge drive.
He said he noticed the neighbour across the road had a loaner Porsche Cayenne, Not unusual as they drop one off every time they take her one away for servicing but today a local electrical company installed a Tesla charge point in their drive. Hence, he thinks the Cayenne must be off for sale. She is an SUV fan, so he reckons he will be seeing a Model X in the drive soon.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on November 21, 2020, 04:24:53 AM
'Tesla charge point'

Are they going down the same route as MK1 smart meters that only work with 1 company hence trying to persuade you not to switch.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 21, 2020, 10:11:48 AM
This couple has a Lotus Elise and a Porsche Cayenne, both with matching personal plates. If they decide to go for another marque I don't think replacing the Tesla charge point with something else will be more than pocket change. However, I believe it is a type 2 connector so you can use it for a variety of electric vehicles.
I know you can get an adaptor to charge the Leaf from Tesla Destination charge points.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on November 23, 2020, 09:55:08 AM
We'll sell you water too.
They'll just take that too
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18890231.pipe-dream-ministers-block-boris-johnson-inspired-bid-export-scots-water-england/

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on November 23, 2020, 12:26:33 PM
But what about all the electrically-powered heat pumps to be used to warm our homes? Many of those will be turned on to coincide with the evening peak.
I don't think this is how heat pumps work is it? You can't just turn them on and have instant heat in the average domestic setup. You need to have a brand new, fully insulated and energy efficient home. The heat pump then has much less work to do running all the time to maintain a constant temperature, rather than having to work hard to raise the temperature from ambient to comfortable twice a day. That's why they will never be retrofitted into most homes. Electric (or possibly hydrogen) boilers are the proposal to replace (North Sea/Russian) gas, as I understand it.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on November 23, 2020, 01:16:48 PM
But what about all the electrically-powered heat pumps to be used to warm our homes? Many of those will be turned on to coincide with the evening peak.
I don't think this is how heat pumps work is it? You can't just turn them on and have instant heat in the average domestic setup. You need to have a brand new, fully insulated and energy efficient home. The heat pump then has much less work to do running all the time to maintain a constant temperature, rather than having to work hard to raise the temperature from ambient to comfortable twice a day. That's why they will never be retrofitted into most homes. Electric (or possibly hydrogen) boilers are the proposal to replace (North Sea/Russian) gas, as I understand it.

It depends how they have been installed, and there is lots of retrofitting going on.

If they are retrofitted to a wet radiator system, i.e gas boiler replacement by a high temperature heat pump, they tend to be used in a similar way to the gas boilers - i.e. switched on when the heat is required.

A retrofitted air-air system, which blows warm air into the house, also tends to be used on demand.

If they are fitted as part of a new build, they are more commonly installed as part of an wet underfloor system. This type of system works on much lower water temperatures, and this makes the heat pumps far more efficient. As you say, these tend to be on all the time, maintaining a largely constant temperature. They also commonly bias towards off peak electricity, the slab acting as a thermal mass, or big storage heater.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on November 23, 2020, 02:06:47 PM
I don't think this is how heat pumps work is it?
Thanks for the clarification. I have not kept current on this for a while. I knew large scale implementations (e..g. Castle Howard) work differently, but I thought most domestic stuff was as part of new build.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on November 23, 2020, 02:38:43 PM
There seems to be a push for retrofitting, especially now they have these high output temperature heat pumps which can directly replace a gas boiler.  Hot water has be from a cylinder though, with a immersion heater booster to prevent legionella... or provided by a instantaneous hot water boiler.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on November 23, 2020, 03:15:29 PM
There seems to be a push for retrofitting, especially now they have these high output temperature heat pumps which can directly replace a gas boiler.  Hot water has be from a cylinder though, with a immersion heater booster to prevent legionella... or provided by a instantaneous hot water boiler.
A bit similar to the electric cars and the need for suitable home charging, the heat pumps will be more suitable for those who can afford the money for the initial installation and the space to allow a corner of a paddock to be dug up for the pipework.
I was speaking to the plumber, while he was servicing my boiler, and he reckoned that the noise in an urban or suburban environment when air to air heat exchangers were fitted would be horrendous.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on November 23, 2020, 03:19:27 PM
I know we are getting off subject now, although it has some relevance in touching on the availability of electrical capacity to charge up car batteries, but the whole idea of pumping hot water around a house seems a little daft to me these days. I have a couple of portable oil filled radiators which I use to boost the heating in the coldest parts of the house on the coldest days. I have seriously considered installing heating based on these given they can be individually controlled by timers and thermostats and controlled by any home automation system to provide truly agile, focussed heating where needed.

Can the heat pump just be used to generate local electrical power, perhaps supplemented by solar and subtle wind turbines to create truly local power into the grid, rather than converting each property, if indeed that is even possible? In my home town there is a huge empty gasworks site, situated by a regularly fast flowing river, which could probably be repurposed, especially given it is already a brownfield site.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on November 23, 2020, 04:56:53 PM
Can the heat pump just be used to generate local electrical power, perhaps supplemented by solar and subtle wind turbines to create truly local power into the grid, rather than converting each property, if indeed that is even possible?

A heat pump does exactly what it says - it uses a refrigerant gas to transfer heat from one circuit (usually outside) to another circuit (usually inside). That heat can be sourced from the air or below ground, and is transferred to a wet central heating system inside, or a blown air heat exchanger. The Castle Howard installation is a ground source heat pump, with the primary circuit submerged in the lake, and the output of the heat pump connected to a traditional wet radiator heating system inside.

A heat pump cannot be used to generate electricity. There are some geothermal installations generating electricity, but that's a different thing altogether.

The advantage of the heat pump over distributed electric heaters is that the heat pump can achieve over 500% efficiency in a low temperature system, that is you can get over 5KW of heat output for 1KW of electricity input.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on November 23, 2020, 05:51:13 PM
Carrying on off-topic, there's a lot of heat pump info at https://www.vaillant.co.uk/homeowners/products/renewables-solutions/all-products/ (https://www.vaillant.co.uk/homeowners/products/renewables-solutions/all-products/). I'm considering investigating the hybrid air source heat pump which works alongside a conventional boiler. The heat pump does the work during moderately cold conditions with the boiler taking over when it's very cold and the heat pump ceases to be adequately efficient.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on November 24, 2020, 05:13:27 AM
Wonder how that would link into/replace my Johnson & Starley warm air system.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 24, 2020, 07:00:22 AM
This thread is for electric cars. If this subject is going to run would someone like to start a Heat Pump thread?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 24, 2020, 08:30:37 PM
Found this, purely by chance. Replacing a faulty battery module in a 2011 Nissan Leaf.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 25, 2020, 07:13:37 AM
I see Elon Musk is now the second richest man on the planet. Huge jump in wealth since Tesla was admitted into the S&P 500.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on November 25, 2020, 07:38:23 AM
He needs to get on top of the Tesla reliability issues. They frequently come bottom, or close to, in owner surveys.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 25, 2020, 08:52:27 AM
Their problems seem to be more build quality and finish than reliability. Still selling like hotcakes, there are a wheen of Model S's around here.
Think back to the early days of Kia and Hyundai and look at them now.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on November 25, 2020, 09:25:29 AM
I see Elon Musk is now the second richest man on the planet. Huge jump in wealth since Tesla was admitted into the S&P 500.

As the saying goes, "he who dares..." and all that.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 25, 2020, 12:37:23 PM
Just referring to Jocko's post above about replacing a faulty battery module, the same You Tube channel - James and Kate - has another video where they put an additional battery in the car to increase range. It comes with a kit including uprated suspension parts to cope with the extra weight.

It now looks as if a decent after market industry is growing up for EV batteries. The old adage (mostly untrue btw) that after so many years an EV would just be scrap is being consigned to history.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 26, 2020, 09:27:32 AM
Watched an interesting video of a degradation test on a 7-year-old Tesla Model S. It is a P85, one of the first 6 Model S's in Norway. After 7 years the battery has only lost 5% and will still return 275 miles on a charge. The guy says that the degradation is a bit like the depreciation of a car. It is high in the early years and reduces as the battery ages. He reckons that after 20 years, the battery would still have 90% capacity.


Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on November 26, 2020, 10:16:27 AM
Watched an interesting video of a degradation test on a 7-year-old Tesla Model S. It is a P85, one of the first 6 Model S's in Norway. After 7 years the battery has only lost 5% and will still return 275 miles on a charge. The guy says that the degradation is a bit like the depreciation of a car. It is high in the early years and reduces as the battery ages. He reckons that after 20 years, the battery would still have 90% capacity.

I think they have been genuinely surprised by the longevity of the batteries, particularly those cars with proper battery cooling systems.

I can see a healthy market in battery pack reconditioning developing, just like engine and gearbox reconditioning specialists exist now for ICE vehicles. You can already go to a specialist and have all the faulty cells replaced to extend the life of failing packs.

Once the supply of new batteries is in full flow, you might even add to that the availability of aftermarket replacement battery packs.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 26, 2020, 10:21:22 AM
I replaced the battery for my Dyson vacuum, and the new one, same size, has about 1.5 times the capacity. Same will happen with EV batteries.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on November 26, 2020, 10:28:01 AM
I replaced the battery for my Dyson vacuum, and the new one, same size, has about 1.5 times the capacity. Same will happen with EV batteries.

Indeed, and what I forgot to add above is that once a healthy reconditioner/replacement market exists, the prices should come down.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on November 26, 2020, 11:14:04 AM
Yes, a friend replaced an 8 year old Prius battery pack for a few hundred quid.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: springswood on November 26, 2020, 11:36:44 AM
That's encouraging Kremmen (captain?) I'd like to go hybrid but my only option would be a Prius with interplanetary mileage &#128522;
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on November 26, 2020, 12:20:16 PM
That's encouraging Kremmen (captain?) I'd like to go hybrid but my only option would be a Prius with interplanetary mileage &#38;#128522;

I've never been a fan of the hybrid route. Like you, I tend to buy older cars, and while Japanese vehicles are generally the most reliable out there, hybrids are complex. Nice when they are new and under warranty, but I see a lot of danger from an older hybrid.

When I finally make the jump from internal combustion, I will probably try to go full electric - the drivetrain is far less complicated.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on November 26, 2020, 12:28:39 PM
I've just double checked with him. I was a bit out.

He paid £1250 for it, old chassis but new cells. His old pack was 13 years old and with a 15 year expected life he changed it early. Took him 1 hour, not bad as he'd never done it before.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on November 26, 2020, 12:40:55 PM
That's encouraging Kremmen (captain?) I'd like to go hybrid but my only option would be a Prius with interplanetary mileage &#38;#38;#128522;

I've never been a fan of the hybrid route. Like you, I tend to buy older cars, and while Japanese vehicles are generally the most reliable out there, hybrids are complex. Nice when they are new and under warranty, but I see a lot of danger from an older hybrid.

When I finally make the jump from internal combustion, I will probably try to go full electric - the drivetrain is far less complicated.

Likewise.
I feel that with a hybrid you are effectively carrying two power sources  and all the complicated electronics to switch between them.
Too much to go wrong.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on November 26, 2020, 12:47:16 PM
Don't say that, I'm looking at a CrossStar next year :)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 26, 2020, 01:02:42 PM
Just on hybrids I understand the complexity/reliability issues but Toyota seem to have got this form of power delivery sussed. Their hybrids do very well on reliability surveys.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on November 26, 2020, 02:01:19 PM
Don't say that, I'm looking at a CrossStar next year :)

Yours will be nice and shiny with a warranty ;)

Just on hybrids I understand the complexity/reliability issues but Toyota seem to have got this form of power delivery sussed. Their hybrids do very well on reliability surveys.

I think most of these reliability surveys get their data from warranty claims on new fleet cars. I'm not saying that Toyotas hybrids are going to be any more unreliable than any other car, just that the added complexity of a hybrid is going to increase the chances of a problem which could get expensive, or even beyond economic repair.

The electronics in a BEV are going to be no less complex that a hybrid, but mechanically, BEVs have the simplest drivetrain of all. I like things I can repair myself, while I'm still able to. I'm no duck egg when it comes to mechanical things, but I am more comfortable with all things electrical and electronic - it'll be like going back 30 years when I worked on electric forklifts!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on November 26, 2020, 02:16:47 PM
Don't say that, I'm looking at a CrossStar next year :)

Yours will be nice and shiny with a warranty ;)

Just on hybrids I understand the complexity/reliability issues but Toyota seem to have got this form of power delivery sussed. Their hybrids do very well on reliability surveys.

I think most of these reliability surveys get their data from warranty claims on new fleet cars. I'm not saying that Toyotas hybrids are going to be any more unreliable than any other car, just that the added complexity of a hybrid is going to increase the chances of a problem which could get expensive, or even beyond economic repair.

My main car is a Toyota Rav4 Hybrid. So far (and I am touching wood as I type) it has been 100% reliable as far as the hybrid powertrain is concerned. However, it is a little stone age as the current model has a much more refined unit. For example, mine has a 2.5l petrol engine and two electric drive motors, one for each axle. It is hugely complicated with 2 separate electric circuits, a standard 12v battery and then the 48v cells, which steal boot space and require ventilation in the rear seats. The newer system is much more like the Honda architecture I believe.

I would love to jump to BEV but range anxiety is an issue for me at the moment.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on November 26, 2020, 02:49:32 PM
I would love to jump to BEV but range anxiety is an issue for me at the moment.

I think that will come with time, as will a decent charging infrastucture.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on November 26, 2020, 03:00:14 PM
I would love to jump to BEV but range anxiety is an issue for me at the moment.

I think that will come with time, as will a decent charging infrastucture.
Yes. It's chicken and egg.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on November 26, 2020, 03:52:48 PM
I would love to jump to BEV but range anxiety is an issue for me at the moment.

I think that will come with time, as will a decent charging infrastucture.
Yes. It's chicken and egg.
Well I am the chicken and the egg has not hatched yet for sure.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 26, 2020, 04:56:17 PM
For me we are not there yet - close - but not there. I bought, new, one of the last Mk3 Jazzes in January this year. It was heavily discounted but even allowing for that, the jump to, say a 50kwh Renault Zoe was nearly £8000 even allowing for the government grant. The Zoe would do me range wise but not price and the lower running costs are not really significant for me as a very low mileage driver.

I looked at a 40 kwh Nissan Leaf with a journey we make about 5 times a year in mind. It's 120 miles round trip. There are charging stations around the destination but zap-map shows them to be frequently out of order. Driving at motorway speeds with the climate control on, the Leaf would struggle. I have an acquaintance who has a 40 kwh Leaf and he says that the best range he has got was 147 miles and he said the last few miles were "squeaky bum time."

On the chicken and egg argument, a low mileage EV would do me, even allowing for these 120 mile round trips, if the charging infrastructure was decent. It isn't so it wouldn't.

If I need a new car (I'm 72 so do the maths as they say) I will get an EV but only when a 200 mile one can be had for the price of a Jazz AND/OR when the infrastructure improves. I think by the mid 2020s we'll be there.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on November 26, 2020, 07:00:52 PM
If I need a new car (I'm 72 so do the maths as they say) I will get an EV but only when a 200 mile one can be had for the price of a Jazz AND/OR when the infrastructure improves. I think by the mid 2020s we'll be there.

I think it will be sooner than that.

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/mg/mg5/62129/mg-5-ev-review
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 26, 2020, 07:36:13 PM
It is a lovely car—all the benefits of Chinese technology. I would opt for the Excite. It doesn't have roof rails, keyless entry or rain-sensing wipers. All the things I wouldn't want.

I was amazed to see that, although the WLTP range is 214 miles, the City range is 276 miles. And all from a 52.5kWh battery which can charge from a 7kW charger in 8.5 hours and from a CCS charger, to 80%, in 50 minutes.
And all for only £1,110 more than a Crosstar.

(https://mg.co.uk/images/mg5ev/configurator/excite/front/red.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on November 26, 2020, 08:22:58 PM
I was amazed to see that, although the WLTP range is 214 miles, the City range is 276 miles. And all from a 52.5kWh battery which can charge from a 7kW charger in 8.5 hours and from a CCS charger, to 80%, in 50 minutes.
And all for only £1,110 more than a Crosstar.

...and don't forget the 7 year warranty. Robert Llewellyn liked it, apart from the odd rough edge.


Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on November 27, 2020, 04:50:36 AM
Take the manufacturers range with a pinch of salt and wait for owner reviews.

Friend has a Jag iPace. Manufacturer said 225 but he says 175. He reckons the 225 is only achievable on certain days when no heating or aircon, wipers and he doesn't use the audio, etc.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 27, 2020, 07:18:54 AM
Take the manufacturers range with a pinch of salt and wait for owner reviews.
That's the same as any car: EV or petrol. My sister-in-law has a Ford Focus 1.0L Ecoboost and she has never been near Fords figures for fuel-efficiency. On the other hand, I could probably get much nearer to Jaguar's iPace figures with my driving style.
The thing about WLTP figures is all cars are tested in similar conditions so, though you cannot use them for accurate assessment of range you can use them to compare one model/marque to another.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on November 27, 2020, 09:49:09 AM
Take the manufacturers range with a pinch of salt and wait for owner reviews.
That's the same as any car: EV or petrol.

I agree, many of the fuel economy figures quoted for modern petrol and diesel cars are complete fantasy. Just look at the ranges of mpg reported on Honest John's Real MPG, particularly those small petrol turbos

https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/real-mpg/
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on November 27, 2020, 10:57:46 AM
I ignore HJ's mpg figures.

Unless the method  of calculating mpg is defined, your will get those who look at the car display after a motorway run and say 55mpg.. ignoring the 30mpg around town.

Brim to brim over months (or better still years) and a spreadsheet or Fuelly is believable. The rest are junk..

Being OCD I have records going back over decades :o :o
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 27, 2020, 11:09:49 AM
Take the manufacturers range with a pinch of salt and wait for owner reviews.

Friend has a Jag iPace. Manufacturer said 225 but he says 175. He reckons the 225 is only achievable on certain days when no heating or aircon, wipers and he doesn't use the audio, etc.

Yes. To be fair though the WLTP figures are a huge improvement on the old NEDC figures. One of the issues with EVs seems to be that adverse conditions seem to have a bigger proportional impact than they would on the mpg figures of an ICE car. I say seem, I don't know if that is actually the case but the fall off in range in cold wet weather with all features on (wipers, heat, aircon/climate control) is dramatic. It's why the acquaintance with the 40 kwh Leaf admits he often drives with the climate control off and at low speeds.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on November 27, 2020, 01:39:59 PM
I ignore HJ's mpg figures.

You have to go on something when you choose a new car, and these days, the manufacturer's figures are wildly optimistic in many cases.

Most of the cars I've had in the past have comfortably achieved the average figures given by the manufacturers back then, for my mix of driving. I think some of the figures quoted by the new measurements are unachievable, going on anecdotal evidence from other owners.

My main car is supposed to average 62.8mpg, but I can only get close to that on a long steady run. The best I can get with mixed rural driving is around 54-55mpg, and that's on the fibometer. Other drivers of the same car get similar or less.

Don't get me wrong, I still think it's remarkable for a car that weighs the best part of 2 ton, but I don't think the manufacturer's figures are plausible.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on November 27, 2020, 01:55:18 PM
Same here, I have a very light right foot and look/think ahead to avoid unnecessary braking. I'm currently achieving just over 50mpg with my 1.8 slushbox Civic.

At my last service, 6 years/22k miles, my original brake pads were reported at 80% left. Still on original tyres as well with loads of meat left..

When I worked I changed my car every 3 years at about 30k and never paid out for tyres or brake pads..
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 27, 2020, 05:02:41 PM
I still have the brake pads that were on the car when I bought it, 44,500 miles ago. And they were not new then.

The more I research the MG5, the more I like it. Robert Llewellyn likes it too but says that the more you drive it, the more you find it's little "foibles". Like not a big enough area for fitting a UK number plate. However, he says none of that affects the use and practicality of the car.

"People" look at it and say, but it is a "Chinese" car. As I said earlier, the same was said about the Kia and Hyundai.
And when Japanese cars started to be sold in the UK, they were all labelled "Jap crap". Don't hear that description these days.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on November 27, 2020, 06:17:38 PM
The more I research the MG5, the more I like it. Robert Llewellyn likes it too but says that the more you drive it, the more you find it's little "foibles". Like not a big enough area for fitting a UK number plate. However, he says none of that affects the use and practicality of the car.

Once they start shifting volume, I don't think it will take the Chinese long to iron the wrinkles out.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Westy36 on November 29, 2020, 12:35:13 PM
This article I read today highlights some real world problems with using an electric car.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2020/nov/28/electric-cars-porsche-charging-network (https://www.theguardian.com/money/2020/nov/28/electric-cars-porsche-charging-network)

I dont think I'll be buying one anytime soon.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 29, 2020, 01:32:40 PM
I have had plenty encouragement fro local EV drivers that the charging network around here is good and you do not need a home charger, but I plan to charge at home which will do all my motoring needs. Infrastructure is what is holding up the sale of EVs here in the UK. Perhaps the popularity of Teslas is down to the preponderance of dedicated charger.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on November 29, 2020, 01:52:31 PM
With very few electric cars around the network may seem good. I've noticed at my local Tesco that they have 1 charging point with 4 outlets.

I've only ever seen 1 car plugged in at a time so any arriving EV drivers, up to 3 more, would also consider charging whilst shopping easy.

Move forward a few years towards 2030 and unless Tesco install charging points all over the carpark, possible, then there could be queues and moans.

When Tesco had it installed, about 50 yards from the store, they dug a trench and laid a substantial cable from the main electric room. I wonder what upgrade the electric room would need to power say 100 cars, although the car park must have nearly 1000 spaces and what about the cable running into the room from the national grid ?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on November 29, 2020, 10:54:16 PM
This article I read today highlights some real world problems with using an electric car.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2020/nov/28/electric-cars-porsche-charging-network (https://www.theguardian.com/money/2020/nov/28/electric-cars-porsche-charging-network)

I dont this I'll be buying one anytime soon.
It's the 30p/kWh cost (when the charger works) which has put me off as that is in the same range as the petrol bill and the major part of my annual mileage is in longer trips. However, an EV makes more sense for those with a shortish daily commute for which the battery can be topped up using cheap overnight electricity.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 30, 2020, 06:59:11 AM
30p/kW is the top price and tends to be motorway service stations. I never buy petrol at motorway service stations as it costs an arm and a leg there. If I need petrol on a motorway trip (very seldom), I normally come off, stop at a local supermarket then rejoin the motorway.
John: Do you buy the bulk of your petrol at motorway service stations or your local filling station?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on November 30, 2020, 07:25:50 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/JbhZnwZ.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on November 30, 2020, 08:40:38 AM
John: Do you buy the bulk of your petrol at motorway service stations or your local filling station?
I've never bought fuel at a motorway service station in recent memory.

However, I think if you research EV charging costs then the 30p/kWh is quite common for commercially managed chargers wherever they are. See, for example, https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/electric/how-much-ev-charging-and-running-cost/ . Of course, if there's ever enough of these chargers that the market will get competitive then prices will drop and perhaps also reflect the time-of-day price fluctuations of the real electricity market.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on December 01, 2020, 04:15:47 PM
This could be a rumour I stumbled upon:

Quote
Electric car batteries need lithium and cobalt. The cobalt comes from the Congo often using child labour. China gets 73% of the Congo cobalt.

After 7 years, electric car battery capacity is ~60%. 95% of batteries end up as toxic waste often polluting water.

If true how green are electric cars.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on December 01, 2020, 04:33:18 PM
This could be a rumour I stumbled upon:

Quote
Electric car batteries need lithium and cobalt. The cobalt comes from the Congo often using child labour. China gets 73% of the Congo cobalt.

After 7 years, electric car battery capacity is ~60%. 95% of batteries end up as toxic waste often polluting water.

If true how green are electric cars.

Absolute bull excrement

Battery life on Toyota Prius: Guarantee was 10 years now 15.

Lithium is recycled.

"What percentage of electric car batteries are recycled?
In either case, the batteries that power electric cars can be recycled. In the case of the older-technology lead-acid batteries, 96 percent of the materials in the battery -- including the nasty lead -- is recovered. To compare, only 38 percent of the material in glass bottles is recovered in the recycling process."
https://tinyurl.com/y5sgoemb

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on December 01, 2020, 06:00:00 PM
This could be a rumour I stumbled upon:

Quote
Electric car batteries need lithium and cobalt. The cobalt comes from the Congo often using child labour. China gets 73% of the Congo cobalt.

After 7 years, electric car battery capacity is ~60%. 95% of batteries end up as toxic waste often polluting water.

If true how green are electric cars.
Think it might have been the "Big Oil" companies that started that rumour.
https://www.drivingelectric.com/your-questions-answered/840/how-recyclable-are-batteries-electric-cars

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on December 02, 2020, 01:49:00 PM
It makes you wonder how all these stories get traction.

Hmmm...

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/dec/02/aston-martin-pr-firm-anti-electric-vehicle-study
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on December 02, 2020, 02:43:40 PM
I just posted it out of interest and whilst it wasn't sent to me as a rumour I decided to post it as one as some of it doesn't sound right.

The one bit I find interesting is that whilst Prius batteries do indeed last up to 15 years they aren't in use all the time. I wonder if pure EV batteries have a shorter life ?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on December 02, 2020, 03:01:24 PM
Good article from which covering degradation as well as lifetime.

https://www.which.co.uk/news/2020/10/electric-car-battery-life-how-concerned-should-you-be-about-degradation/

Also interesting

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Killed_the_Electric_Car%3F#:~:text=Who%20Killed%20the%20Electric%20Car%3F%20is%20a%202006,specifically%20the%20General%20Motors%20EV1%20of%20the%20mid-1990s.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=who+killed+the+electric+car&&view=detail&mid=CDCB9A1BBED2DB20AA34CDCB9A1BBED2DB20AA34&&FORM=VDRVRV

Edit Added last two links
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on December 02, 2020, 03:12:58 PM
whilst Prius batteries do indeed last up to 15 years they aren't in use all the time

They are. They are constantly in the charge/discharge cycle. In fact they are used more than the engine, which is oftentimes switched off whereas the battery is always on duty receiving or sending charge. Whilst my RAV4 isn't a Prius it uses the exact same technology, and the energy use display tells me what is happening.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on December 02, 2020, 04:31:31 PM
Fair enough, thanks
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on December 05, 2020, 07:48:21 PM
The more I research the MG5, the more I like it.

Some great scrappage offers from MG now, up to £8000 off list price (including the plug-in grant).

https://mg.co.uk/offers-finance/trade-up-plugin/

£7000 off the MG 5 EV Excite, making it £20,495

Plus the possibility of up to 6 year 0% loans in Scotland, just for you Jocko!

https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/grants-and-loans/electric-vehicle-loan/
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 05, 2020, 07:54:17 PM
I am seriously looking at the MG.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on December 05, 2020, 08:54:01 PM
There's some cheap pre-registered cars out there too.

MG 5 are too new, but I've seen ZS EV under £19K.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 06, 2020, 10:16:12 AM
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/u-k-power-prices-jump-153739655.html


Anyone with their eyes on the ball and not blinkered by the greenies saw this coming ages ago. We ran out of gas a few years ago ( the Russians were laughing when they sent UK a tanker full of gas ) because we are burning it in power stations by the megalitre instead of using if more efficiently for local heat in gas boilers

Only a matter of time before we have rolling blackouts in UK, all because our politicians are incapable of understanding anything but eroding our liberties with draconian laws and fiddling their expenses...

Having to rely on France for nuclear generated power in the ultimate irony, several times for periods of 4 days or more in the last few months solar and wind have contributed a tiny dribble of power to our grid while everything else runs flat out to keep our lights on. Would be so funny if HS2 could not run due to lack of power when the money would have been better spent of proper power stations. I read an article by the German professor who used to run German grid, he said 'for every renewable you have to build 100% conventional generating backup' - which is why Germans continued to build coal burning power stations, and why they are one of the worlds largest industrial economies....

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 06, 2020, 11:12:55 AM
Good to see you back, culzean. Beginning to wonder if you had caught the lurgy.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on December 06, 2020, 02:22:41 PM
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/u-k-power-prices-jump-153739655.html


Anyone with their eyes on the ball and not blinkered by the greenies saw this coming ages ago. We ran out of gas a few years ago ( the Russians were laughing when they sent UK a tanker full of gas ) because we are burning it in power stations by the megalitre instead of using if more efficiently for local heat in gas boilers

Only a matter of time before we have rolling blackouts in UK, all because our politicians are incapable of understanding anything but eroding our liberties with draconian laws and fiddling their expenses...

Having to rely on France for nuclear generated power in the ultimate irony, several times for periods of 4 days or more in the last few months solar and wind have contributed a tiny dribble of power to our grid while everything else runs flat out to keep our lights on. Would be so funny if HS2 could not run due to lack of power when the money would have been better spent of proper power stations. I read an article by the German professor who used to run German grid, he said 'for every renewable you have to build 100% conventional generating backup' - which is why Germans continued to build coal burning power stations, and why they are one of the worlds largest industrial economies....

Welcome back.

Gridwatch today - no sun , no sun showed France at 3GW and renewables at <15%..  Gas fired Power stations flat out.

I know electricity storage is possible using vanadium batteris but storing GWs of electricity is beyond any technology today

Ensure your Smart Meter does not work  (ours is  a Mark 1 and does not) so no-one can switch you off.

Just imagine: weather like now, and a power cut. OAPs die  due to hypothermia. That is what we will come to.
Meanwhile Boris goes on about windpower.. he should know all about hot air.  (apologies : not political I promise).

As for recharging at night when there is no wind...!


Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on December 06, 2020, 09:32:40 PM
I attch the Gridwatch graph for today up to 9pm with the power source data for 17:20 which looks to be the peak. The sun had gone to bed (not that it had shone much today) and the 24GW of wind generating capacity was producing 0.383GW leaving everything to work hard. And this is a Sunday without much commercial / industrial consumption. Wait and see what happens if the wind is on holiday on a weekday.

I know that 50 years ago the first step in demand management was voltage reduction. Our supply is 230V +6% / -10% and a 10% drop in voltage will reduce demand by more than 10% https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltage_optimisation. 

Several new pumped storage schemes such as https://www.scottishconstructionnow.com/article/scotland-s-largest-hydro-project-approved-by-ministers (1.5GW for up to 24 hours) will help balance supply and demand. However, they aren't commercially viable until the government puts a tax on wind generation so there's money available to pay for the backup storage. There's been too much emphasis on making wind generation profitable.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on December 07, 2020, 05:00:21 AM
I'm sure I read somewhere that we were considering building a number of small nuclear plants round the country. Could they be up and running by 2030.

I also wonder about the ease of replacing the millions of domestic gas boilers. I wonder how disruptive that would be in each home.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on December 07, 2020, 08:03:50 AM
I'm sure I read somewhere that we were considering building a number of small nuclear plants round the country. Could they be up and running by 2030.

That’ll be the Small Modular Reactor (SMR) concept being pushed by Rolls Royce:
https://www.rolls-royce.com/products-and-services/nuclear/small-modular-reactors.aspx#/
The pitch seems to be they can make nuclear power cheaper by building smaller power stations using a production-line principle rather than the kind of mega one-off builds like that in progress at Hinkley Point. The brochure says each SMR will generate between 220 & 440MW, which means you’d need between 8 & 15 SMRs to replace Hinkley Point C. Would that be cheaper? Plus certain aspects of nuclear power don’t scale with plant size, such as the difficulty of finding enough sites and the costs of ensuring safety and security. Good luck to them, but it looks like an uphill struggle to me.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on December 07, 2020, 08:22:06 AM
I'm sure I read somewhere that we were considering building a number of small nuclear plants round the country. Could they be up and running by 2030.

I also wonder about the ease of replacing the millions of domestic gas boilers. I wonder how disruptive that would be in each home.

Nucs produced by Rolls Royce.
None ordered.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 07, 2020, 08:24:38 AM
such as the difficulty of finding enough sites
From what I have read about them they propose siting them near major conurbations to supply power to cities without major extensions to the grid. When you think about it, they were happy to put nuclear submarines with their reactors just a few miles from Edinburgh and Glasgow. Oh, but that is in Scotland, my mistake.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on December 07, 2020, 10:16:33 AM
Not good news from Toyota

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/dec/07/toyota-will-not-invest-in-electric-cars-in-uk-until-at-least-2034
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on December 07, 2020, 10:24:32 AM
Not good news from Toyota

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/dec/07/toyota-will-not-invest-in-electric-cars-in-uk-until-at-least-2034
Politics alert  :o
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on December 07, 2020, 11:07:41 AM
Politics alert  :o

I nearly didn't post it, but I was more curious about the indication that they would continue building new hybrid models... thus saving the Deeside engine plant.

I'll happily delete it if it bothers anyone.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on December 07, 2020, 11:32:22 AM
I nearly didn't post it, but I was more curious about the indication that they would continue building new hybrid models... thus saving the Deeside engine plant.

I'll happily delete it if it bothers anyone.
Not for me. My tongue was in my cheek. In fact I was nearly going to post a link earlier this morning.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on December 07, 2020, 11:46:29 AM
If Boz and Toyota continue then surely they can't produce Hybrids between 2030 and 2035 ?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on December 07, 2020, 12:07:18 PM
Here comes the future

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/dec/07/uk-first-all-electric-car-charging-forecourt-opens-in-essex

Quote
The forecourts will offer super-fast wifi, and stand alongside a range of “Best of British” shops including WH Smith and Boots as well as Costa Coffee and the Post Office. Some will offer business meeting pods, a children’s play centre and a “wellbeing area” with exercise bikes that generate electricity.

Now that's enterprising!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 07, 2020, 12:13:47 PM
When you think about all the Peloton bikes and the gyms with exercise bikes and steppers, rowing machines etc., we should be recovering all that energy in the form of electricity.  :D
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on December 07, 2020, 12:16:54 PM
When you think about all the Peloton bikes and the gyms with exercise bikes and steppers, rowing machines etc., we should be recovering all that energy in the form of electricity.  :D

Quick, patent that idea...  ;D
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on December 07, 2020, 12:40:20 PM
Peleton, pedalling away like mad and not getting anywhere  :D
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on December 07, 2020, 01:19:27 PM
One of their *very nice and no doubt expensive) ads starts with a man doing yoga...
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on December 07, 2020, 02:06:53 PM
From what I have read about them they propose siting them near major conurbations to supply power to cities without major extensions to the grid.
Putting the power stations close to urban areas provides potential to use the waste heat (and a steam turbine is no more than 40% efficient) for heating of buildings. Some big plumbing would need to be installed but it's one way to stop is freezing during winter without adding more carbon to the atmosphere. District heating systems are common in many countries.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on December 07, 2020, 02:10:04 PM
When you think about all the Peloton bikes and the gyms with exercise bikes and steppers, rowing machines etc., we should be recovering all that energy in the form of electricity.  :D
Why not cut out the energy conversions and have more people walking and cycling?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on December 07, 2020, 02:13:49 PM

Putting the power stations close to urban areas provides potential to use the waste heat (and a steam turbine is no more than 40% efficient) for heating of buildings. Some big plumbing would need to be installed but it's one way to stop is freezing during winter without adding more carbon to the atmosphere. District heating systems are common in many countries.
Every time I drive past Grangemouth with all the steam and blazing lights from the refinery and other chemical plants I think the same thing.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 07, 2020, 04:38:27 PM
The worst thing around here is Mossmorran with its flare blazing for days at a time. On a cloudy night, I can read in bed by its light - and I am in Kirkcaldy.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on December 07, 2020, 04:51:08 PM
I lived by the side of a coal fired station for twenty years until it closed, the steam belching out of the cooling towers create their own microclimate in the area. Unlike other countries, communal heating systems from these sorts of heat producing industries is rare here. When they have been attempted, they often prove unreliable and are eventually scrapped.

The closest they got here were a substantial array of heat and CO2 fed greenhouses, which fell into disrepair and were eventually abandoned.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on December 07, 2020, 04:57:37 PM
such as the difficulty of finding enough sites
From what I have read about them they propose siting them near major conurbations to supply power to cities without major extensions to the grid. When you think about it, they were happy to put nuclear submarines with their reactors just a few miles from Edinburgh and Glasgow. Oh, but that is in Scotland, my mistake.
Clearly forgetting about Devonport (which is much closer to the centre of a city than either of the Scottish nuclear submarine facilities) and Chatham (before they closed it).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on December 07, 2020, 05:05:14 PM
[
Putting the power stations close to urban areas provides potential to use the waste heat ...

The problem with putting permanent nuclear installations near urban areas is nothing to do with nuclear safety (the UK nuclear regulatory processes for both civil and military reactors are pretty good these days). The problem is public acceptance. No amount of poring over safety cases and the like will convince Joe Public to accept a reactor next door. So RR will definitely have a problem finding somewhere to put their SMRs.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 07, 2020, 06:56:29 PM
Clearly forgetting about Devonport (which is much closer to the centre of a city than either of the Scottish nuclear submarine facilities) and Chatham (before they closed it).
But they are not near Westminster so they don't count either.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on December 07, 2020, 07:08:23 PM
[
Putting the power stations close to urban areas provides potential to use the waste heat ...

The problem with putting permanent nuclear installations near urban areas is nothing to do with nuclear safety (the UK nuclear regulatory processes for both civil and military reactors are pretty good these days). The problem is public acceptance.

...and cooling water.

That's why they are not built on rivers in the UK, only coastal and on large reservoirs of water. They cannot guarantee supply of cooling water.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on December 07, 2020, 10:28:03 PM
Clearly forgetting about Devonport (which is much closer to the centre of a city than either of the Scottish nuclear submarine facilities) and Chatham (before they closed it).
But they are not near Westminster so they don't count either.
I'm not really clear why distance from Westminster is obsessing you, because nuclear safety standards are concerned with safety of the general public irrespective of who and where they are.
But how about this one (8 km as the crow flies from Westminster) ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JASON_reactor
"... JASON was one of very few reactors operating within a major population centre ..."
Or this one (6.3 km):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Queen_Mary_University_of_London#Nuclear_reactor
Doubt that anyone'd have the nerve (or get permission) to do anything like those now!

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 08, 2020, 07:17:19 AM
I'm not really clear why distance from Westminster is obsessing you,!
You would have to be a Scot to understand that. Westminster has shafted Scotland from time immemorial. To many Scots and me Westminster is Them, the Man, doesn't matter who is in power.
As far as nuclear power stations go, I couldn't give a sh*t where they build one. There is one line of sight from me. I worked at Dounreay for a spell back in the 60s, so I don't worry about it.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on December 08, 2020, 10:08:24 AM
I'm not really clear why distance from Westminster is obsessing you,!
You would have to be a Scot to understand that. Westminster has shafted Scotland from time immemorial. To many Scots and me Westminster is Them, the Man, doesn't matter who is in power.

I feel the same as a Yorkshireman! ;D
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on December 08, 2020, 11:00:33 AM
Every time I drive past Grangemouth with all the steam and blazing lights from the refinery and other chemical plants I think the same thing.
For many years the most profitable power station in Britain as Spondon H which was build to provide heat to a chemical plant next door http://www.strayoffthepath.co.uk/spondon-h-power-station.html .
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on December 08, 2020, 11:57:47 AM
You would have to be a Scot to understand that. Westminster has shafted Scotland from time immemorial. To many Scots and me Westminster is Them, the Man, doesn't matter who is in power.

OK, I see where you're coming from now. I was just trying to comment on the difficulties of siting new nuclear power plants anywhere near urban concentrations. I'd guess there are many people in other regions of the UK that would have similar views to yours about our central government, but opening that can of worms here would would probably get this thread closed down. So can we get back to the thread topic, electric cars, and it's spin-off, how the UK grid will cope with them?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on December 08, 2020, 12:12:17 PM
Every time I drive past Grangemouth with all the steam and blazing lights from the refinery and other chemical plants I think the same thing.
For many years the most profitable power station in Britain as Spondon H which was build to provide heat to a chemical plant next door http://www.strayoffthepath.co.uk/spondon-h-power-station.html .
Back in the 1960s when I worked for BP as a student there used to be a power station on site but as far as I know it was just to provide power for the refinery.
There were plans to build a power station at Kinneil terminal in 2016 which were abandoned in 2017.
There are at present plans to build a power station incorporating carbon capture and hydrogen generation but this seems to be based on importation of shale oil gas from the US. so  IMHO not exactly environmentally friendly.

https://www.falkirkherald.co.uk/business/2500-jobs-ps25-billion-carbon-capture-plant-grangemouth-3003382
https://www.ineos.com/inch-magazine/articles/issue-15/grangemouth-to-build-a-new-power-station/
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on December 08, 2020, 12:19:36 PM
I am getting the feeling that electric cars and the power to charge them is the Gov putting the cart before the horse.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on December 08, 2020, 12:32:46 PM
I am getting the feeling that electric cars and the power to charge them is the Gov putting the cart before the horse.

As Jim's said before, it's a chicken and egg job. It'll come as demand grows, home charging will drive adoption for a few years at least.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 08, 2020, 12:40:51 PM
Once it becomes in the supermarket's interest to provide charging points, they will be in a rush to install them. Then one of the big four will offer free charging to customers then they will all be going down that route.
When I lived in Gourock, the Tesco in Greenock town centre offered free parking for customers (others had to pay). A current receipt was the proof you were a customer. They were the busiest supermarket in the town centre.
Here in Kirkcaldy Asda did away with the £1 for a trolley. Within a month every supermarket except Aldi and Lidl did the same.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on December 08, 2020, 01:21:33 PM
Before the £1 round here they were all over the car park, damaged, in the canal, etc and people took them home. The trolley people had a long job.

With the £1 there's always plenty available near the store entrance and they roll properly.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 08, 2020, 01:38:26 PM
Asda has the fancy ones that if you try to leave the car park, the brake is applied. The furthest the trolley man has to go is the sensor cable.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on December 08, 2020, 02:13:45 PM
We had those, there was a red line on the floor, the trolley detected it and locked.

The kids arrived overnight and pushed every trolley over the red line so they all had to be unlocked.

Kids 1  Tesco 0
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on December 08, 2020, 02:15:19 PM
Asda has the fancy ones that if you try to leave the car park, the brake is applied. The furthest the trolley man has to go is the sensor cable.

Not in  Stole on Trent  sorry Stoke on Trent.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: 748rich on December 08, 2020, 03:13:00 PM
Jazz passed MOT yesterday  :) Same advisories as last year repeated. Uneven wear to front tyres (edges). As only 3000 miles since last year (due to lockdown) I thought 5mm of tread was acceptable and so it was.
Just a couple of comments to add to the thread regarding electric cars.
Hybrid cars in the summer. Electric motor runs for approx 2 miles before engine starts. Hybrid cars in winter. As soon as you switch on the engine starts to warm the cabin. (Toyota Yaris 2018 model). Fuel consumption nowhere near the 85mpg suggested by the manufacturer.
Have a look on youtube (We drove these new electric cars until they DIED!)
Stay safe everybody.
Richard.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on December 08, 2020, 04:46:08 PM
Nice video
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on December 08, 2020, 11:21:46 PM
Not good news from Toyota

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/dec/07/toyota-will-not-invest-in-electric-cars-in-uk-until-at-least-2034
Nor from Land Rover

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/dec/08/ineos-boss-opts-to-build-british-heir-to-land-rover-defender-in-france

Or Honda
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55230469

Latest update. Just saw the Honda news on tele this morning.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: MartinJG on December 08, 2020, 11:43:33 PM
I am getting the feeling that electric cars and the power to charge them is the Gov putting the cart before the horse.

I think that is being rather polite.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on December 09, 2020, 07:09:49 AM
I think you are being unkind.
Wind power IS the way to go.
What can go wrong?

Err  I have looked a lot at Gridwatch a lot the past 3 weeks.
Solar and windpower falling from 40% of demand in summer to less than 20% at times...21% as I write.
What we need is all those nuclear power plants that are on order.
Err.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on December 09, 2020, 08:48:37 AM
I wonder how long it would take for RR to get them up and running.

Wind & Solar is seasonal and time of day as mentioned. With the upcoming reliance on electric they need to 'extract their digit' as my wife would say.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 09, 2020, 09:30:35 AM
Not good news from Toyota

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/dec/07/toyota-will-not-invest-in-electric-cars-in-uk-until-at-least-2034
Nor from Land Rover

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/dec/08/ineos-boss-opts-to-build-british-heir-to-land-rover-defender-in-france

Or Honda
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55230469

Latest update. Just saw the Honda news on tele this morning.

Port delays caused by businesses panic buying - just like the muppets did with bogroll and pasta and anything in a tin at start of lockdowns -

And the Defender clone is nothing to do with  Land Rover,  it is a copy, maybe he can't build it in UK due to Land Rover suing him.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on December 09, 2020, 09:33:03 AM
I wonder how long it would take for RR to get them up and running.

I wouldn't think it would take long, given their experience building small reactors over the last 50-odd years.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 09, 2020, 09:34:40 AM
Wind 7% and solar 0% this morning on UK gridwatch - it really is past a joke that we need to build 200x the wind capacity we need to get a decent amount of power on a bad day and on a good day 90% of the wind power has to be kept off the grid but the windfarms still have to be paid to produce nothing.... we should have hidden the keys to the asylum a bit better.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 09, 2020, 09:38:49 AM
From Rolls Royce: Take just 5 years from the start of construction to the
generation of the first electricity. Be up and running by 2028


https://www.rolls-royce.com/~/media/Files/R/Rolls-Royce/documents/customers/nuclear/smr-brochure-july-2017.pdf (https://www.rolls-royce.com/~/media/Files/R/Rolls-Royce/documents/customers/nuclear/smr-brochure-july-2017.pdf)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on December 09, 2020, 09:50:26 AM
It will be interesting to see how they intend to mitigate the risks from these SMRs in areas where nuclear installations are not currently constructed.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Westy36 on December 09, 2020, 10:16:33 AM
...and cooling water.

That's why they are not built on rivers in the UK, only coastal and on large reservoirs of water. They cannot guarantee supply of cooling water.

We took a tour of Sizewell B in 2016. It was very interesting, and free.  :) I recall the guide proudly stating that sea water was used for cooling and that half of marine life survived! He wasn't impressed by my pointing out that therefore half dies........not the positive spin EDF wanted to put on it.

In the Guardian yesterday, a lengthy article about lithium and the environmental damage in sourcing it.
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/dec/08/the-curse-of-white-oil-electric-vehicles-dirty-secret-lithium (https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/dec/08/the-curse-of-white-oil-electric-vehicles-dirty-secret-lithium)
Towards the end of the article, is some interesting work being done in recovering lithium from used batteries.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinS on December 09, 2020, 10:44:08 AM
I started my working life as an apprentice and later in the design offices of the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority (UKAEA) and I felt perfectly safe.  I was getting irradiated more sat in front of our CRT television at home than I was at work.

At that time we were at the forefront of reactor development and were putting 100mW into the grid by way of demonstrating that we could.  It was public misinformation that stopped us from developing our own power stations as people didn't want them on their doorsteps.  So what do we do but buy electricity from French nuclear power stations, also on our doorsteps.

Ironic isn't it?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on December 09, 2020, 11:34:35 AM

Port delays caused by businesses panic buying - just like the muppets did with bogroll and pasta and anything in a tin at start of lockdowns -


Sign of things to come?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: MartinJG on December 09, 2020, 11:35:23 AM
I wonder how long it would take for RR to get them up and running.

Wind & Solar is seasonal and time of day as mentioned. With the upcoming reliance on electric they need to 'extract their digit' as my wife would say.

Or their heads.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: MartinJG on December 09, 2020, 11:42:39 AM
I started my working life as an apprentice and later in the design offices of the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority (UKAEA) and I felt perfectly safe.  I was getting irradiated more sat in front of our CRT television at home than I was at work.

At that time we were at the forefront of reactor development and were putting 100mW into the grid by way of demonstrating that we could.  It was public misinformation that stopped us from developing our own power stations as people didn't want them on their doorsteps.  So what do we do but buy electricity from French nuclear power stations, also on our doorsteps.

Ironic isn't it?

Always reminds me of the Billy Connolly joke about X rays. 'Why do they tell you everything will be just fine and then leave the room and close the 12" lead lined door behind them'....
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on December 09, 2020, 11:48:57 AM
I'm still waiting for my Mr. Fusion. Seems like Back to the Future 2 got the timeline slightly wrong, although Nike did make self tying laces for 2015 I believe.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on December 09, 2020, 01:18:32 PM

Port delays caused by businesses panic buying - just like the muppets did with bogroll and pasta and anything in a tin at start of lockdowns -


Sign of things to come?

Err unlikely.
US ports are the same. Not enough empty containers, not enough ships, world trade affected by Covid.

https://www.cips.org/supply-management/news/2020/november/-the-perfect-storm-hits-supply-chains-with-300-freight-increase-/

and
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2020/12/09/uss-busiest-port-runs-space-global-shipping-chaos-mounts/
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinS on December 09, 2020, 01:54:46 PM
I started my working life as an apprentice and later in the design offices of the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority (UKAEA) and I felt perfectly safe.  I was getting irradiated more sat in front of our CRT television at home than I was at work.

At that time we were at the forefront of reactor development and were putting 100mW into the grid by way of demonstrating that we could.  It was public misinformation that stopped us from developing our own power stations as people didn't want them on their doorsteps.  So what do we do but buy electricity from French nuclear power stations, also on our doorsteps.

Ironic isn't it?

Always reminds me of the Billy Connolly joke about X rays. 'Why do they tell you everything will be just fine and then leave the room and close the 12" lead lined door behind them'....

And that just about sums up my point.

You can easily take a burst from one x-ray.  The radiologist would not survive the 100 bursts a day 5 days a week.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on December 09, 2020, 02:12:55 PM

Port delays caused by businesses panic buying - just like the muppets did with bogroll and pasta and anything in a tin at start of lockdowns -


Sign of things to come?

Err unlikely.
US ports are the same. Not enough empty containers, not enough ships, world trade affected by Covid.

https://www.cips.org/supply-management/news/2020/november/-the-perfect-storm-hits-supply-chains-with-300-freight-increase-/

and
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2020/12/09/uss-busiest-port-runs-space-global-shipping-chaos-mounts/
Just didn't want to mention the b word.
If this is a perfect storm without it ..........?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on December 09, 2020, 03:45:16 PM

Port delays caused by businesses panic buying - just like the muppets did with bogroll and pasta and anything in a tin at start of lockdowns -


Sign of things to come?

Err unlikely.
US ports are the same. Not enough empty containers, not enough ships, world trade affected by Covid.

https://www.cips.org/supply-management/news/2020/november/-the-perfect-storm-hits-supply-chains-with-300-freight-increase-/

and
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2020/12/09/uss-busiest-port-runs-space-global-shipping-chaos-mounts/
Just didn't want to mention the b word.
If this is a perfect storm without it ..........?

There is a lot of Pre B .....buying and stockpiling . Tesco are - non perishable food. I am sure others are.

"Expect a month or so of disruption" and then some normality is what I am reading. Well as smooth running depends upon untested Government software to handle processing of documentation and    transaction volumes at least five times current levels.. and that assumption may be optimistic.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on December 09, 2020, 03:48:02 PM
I wonder how the real cost of the charging compares with petrol? A 100kWh battery would cost £15 to £20 to fully charge at current domestic tariffs. Free / subsidised charging will disappear as the number of electric vehicles increases.

Hybrid has a lot of potential as (i) there's the recovery of energy lost to braking and (ii) it allows the engine to spend more of its time operating under the most efficient conditions. Honda's Mk 2 Jazz hybrid was a bit half baked as both the battery (a heavy lead acid lump) and motor/generator were of limited capacity. A hybrid version of the Mk 3 Jazz is sold in some parts of the world but not here.

The motor battery (as opposed to the traditional car battery) was NIMH at first , then Lithium post 2011.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on December 09, 2020, 04:50:28 PM


"Expect a month or so of disruption" and then some normality is what I am reading. Well as smooth running depends upon untested Government software to handle processing of documentation and    transaction volumes at least five times current levels.. and that assumption may be optimistic.

Just a tad optimistic. :o :o

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/scheme-to-hire-50000-brexit-customs-officers-is-funding-staff-poaching/27/10/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/no-deal-brexit-what-happens-b1768233.html?utm_source=taboola&utm_medium=Feed

Latest edit Added 2nd link
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on December 10, 2020, 10:23:23 PM
Just watched episode 3 of an interesting programme on BBC Alba called An Lan (Tide) about the tide, and those who earn their living working with it. It is narrated in Gaelic with English subtitles, but worth a watch.

There's a bit about the Surf & Turf operation in Orkney at about 46 minutes in, and tidal energy in general.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m00052k0/an-lantide-series-1-3-a-beartachadh-an-lainharnessing-the-tide

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on December 11, 2020, 07:22:42 AM
More bad news for Wales.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/dec/11/car-battery-firm-scraps-plan-to-build-uks-first-gigafactory-in-wales

See also
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/may/20/uk-first-car-battery-gigafactory-amte-power-britishvolt
For background
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 11, 2020, 09:51:40 AM
More bad news for Wales.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/dec/11/car-battery-firm-scraps-plan-to-build-uks-first-gigafactory-in-wales

See also
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/may/20/uk-first-car-battery-gigafactory-amte-power-britishvolt
For background

Wales is a devolved government,  investors may not feel money well spent if they want to be independent soon - far safer to build in England.  Same for Scotland,  they will probably miss out on similar investment because of all the machinations of the SNP.. Next submarine base will be in Portsmouth, next navy ships built in Tyneside or Portsmouth as well, I believe the EU call it 'cherry picking' when you want your cake and eat it' - investors need certainty when they are spending loadsa' money.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Westy36 on December 11, 2020, 10:00:05 AM
Just watched episode 3 of an interesting programme on BBC Alba called An Lan (Tide) about the tide, and those who earn their living working with it. It is narrated in Gaelic with English subtitles, but worth a watch.

There's a bit about the Surf & Turf operation in Orkney at about 46 minutes in, and tidal energy in general.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m00052k0/an-lantide-series-1-3-a-beartachadh-an-lainharnessing-the-tide

What happened to the project to harness the massive tidal energy of the Bristol channel?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on December 11, 2020, 11:00:58 AM
What happened to the project to harness the massive tidal energy of the Bristol channel?

Plenty of info available if you search for it, eg here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severn_Barrage

Looks like the benefits simply don't outweigh the problems and disbenefits. Latest full-stop seems to be:
"However the Hafren Power plan collapsed after it was rejected by three independent committees of MPs and by the Government. On 14 January 2014 it was announced that the Chairman and Chief Executive of Hafren Power had resigned, putting an end to the Severn Barrage project."
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on December 11, 2020, 11:46:50 AM


Wales is a devolved government,  investors may not feel money well spent if they want to be independent soon - far safer to build in England.  Same for Scotland,  they will probably miss out on similar investment because of all the machinations of the SNP.
If Scotland and Wales are ignored in parliament and receive no investment, it is only going to increase the desire for independence.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 12, 2020, 10:53:23 AM


Wales is a devolved government,  investors may not feel money well spent if they want to be independent soon - far safer to build in England.  Same for Scotland,  they will probably miss out on similar investment because of all the machinations of the SNP.
If Scotland and Wales are ignored in parliament and receive no investment, it is only going to increase the desire for independence.

Next indyref should include English voters,  then Scotland would get a massive majority to leave the Westminster they hate and they would be controlled by Brussels .. as a really small fish in a big pond - and a hard border at Carlisle  -  Out of the frying pan into the fire springs to mind.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on December 12, 2020, 12:38:43 PM


Wales is a devolved government,  investors may not feel money well spent if they want to be independent soon - far safer to build in England.  Same for Scotland,  they will probably miss out on similar investment because of all the machinations of the SNP.
If Scotland and Wales are ignored in parliament and receive no investment, it is only going to increase the desire for independence.

Next indyref should include English voters,  then Scotland would get a massive majority to leave the Westminster they hate and they would be controlled by Brussels .. as a really small fish in a big pond - and a hard border at Carlisle  -  Out of the frying pan into the fire springs to mind.
Sorry.
English (and some Scottish) voters have done enough harm already.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on December 12, 2020, 03:58:57 PM
Anyway back on topic.
Wind and solar are intermittent and need to be backed up or, even better, stored for when input is insufficient.
Finding a suitable storage medium is now the big problem.
Sorry about going off topic.

Here are a few more ideas in this series of videos.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=The+Future+Of+Energy+Storage+Beyond+Lithium+Ion&docid=608050215758726709&mid=FE0C2805990216694F1EFE0C2805990216694F1E&view=detail&FORM=VIRE

Hydrogen as a storage medium.

https://www.carbonbrief.org/in-depth-qa-does-the-world-need-hydrogen-to-solve-climate-change?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB

Latest edit added hydrogen link.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 16, 2020, 07:05:55 AM
Volkswagen Zwickau car plant, which is now building EVs only, is powered solely by Wind, Solar and massive battery storage. It runs 7 days a week, 52 weeks of the year. If they can do it, so can the rest of us.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 16, 2020, 08:58:57 AM
Volkswagen Zwickau car plant, which is now building EVs only, is powered solely by Wind, Solar and massive battery storage. It runs 7 days a week, 52 weeks of the year. If they can do it, so can the rest of us.

Powering one factory for propaganda purposes ( look how green we are etc.....) and powering a whole country that needs 45GW+ without even charging BEV are two different things...
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on December 16, 2020, 11:36:28 AM
Volkswagen Zwickau car plant, which is now building EVs only, is powered solely by Wind, Solar and massive battery storage. It runs 7 days a week, 52 weeks of the year. If they can do it, so can the rest of us.

Powering one factory for propaganda purposes ( look how green we are etc.....) and powering a whole country that needs 45GW+ without even charging BEV are two different things...

It is am impressive call to arms though. We think of supplying renewable energy on a National scale and maybe we should think about it more locally.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Westy36 on December 16, 2020, 11:44:22 AM
Volkswagen Zwickau car plant, which is now building EVs only, is powered solely by Wind, Solar and massive battery storage. It runs 7 days a week, 52 weeks of the year. If they can do it, so can the rest of us.

Interesting, that is the plant that used to make the Trabant.  :) Look how quickly things change, from 2 stoke Trabbi to ID4 EV.


Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 17, 2020, 08:59:12 PM
Was directed to this site, the EV Database. This gives figures for electric vehicles available here in the UK. It gives a much more realistic range figure than the WLTP figures.

https://ev-database.uk/#sort:path~type~order=.rank~number~desc|range-slider-range:prev~next=0~600|range-slider-bijtelling:prev~next=0~600|range-slider-acceleration:prev~next=2~23|range-slider-fastcharge:prev~next=0~1000|range-slider-lease:prev~next=150~2500|range-slider-topspeed:prev~next=60~260|paging:currentPage=0|paging:number=9 (https://ev-database.uk/#sort:path~type~order=.rank~number~desc|range-slider-range:prev~next=0~600|range-slider-bijtelling:prev~next=0~600|range-slider-acceleration:prev~next=2~23|range-slider-fastcharge:prev~next=0~1000|range-slider-lease:prev~next=150~2500|range-slider-topspeed:prev~next=60~260|paging:currentPage=0|paging:number=9)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 18, 2020, 07:04:38 PM
Interesting data I came across today.

Scotland generated enough electricity from renewable sources last year (2019 - my brackets) to meet the equivalent of 90.1% of its total electricity consumption, according to latest figures.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on December 22, 2020, 12:25:16 PM
Now it's the turn of Apple to build an EV

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-autos-exclusive-idUSKBN28V2PY
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 22, 2020, 12:42:22 PM
The exciting bit in that link is:
Central to Apple’s strategy is a new battery design that could “radically” reduce the cost of batteries and increase the vehicle’s range, according to a third person who has seen Apple’s battery design.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Westy36 on December 22, 2020, 05:10:12 PM
The van market very is important. Some news here about Vauxhall and BT Fleet with the Vivaro-e.

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-9068679/Vauxhall-talks-producing-electric-vans-Britain.html (https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-9068679/Vauxhall-talks-producing-electric-vans-Britain.html)

In cities, this would make so much sense.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 22, 2020, 05:45:13 PM
NHS Fife has a fleet of Nissan e-NV200 vans. NHS Lothian also has a few. Fife Council has a range of electric cars and vans too.

(https://chargemap.s3.amazonaws.com/charging_pool_photos/url/840x560/86103/fife-council_71302.jpeg)
(https://photos.plugshare.com/photos/520913.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on December 22, 2020, 06:03:37 PM
If they can do their job without running out of puff then it makes sense.

I only ever see Openreach vans parked up so no problem :D
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on December 23, 2020, 09:33:00 AM
A little update on the Honda E. Ian Sampson, one of the earlier EV Vloggers, is doing a sponsored thing with a Honda E - he did a range test in bad weather the other day - 81 miles max. Not good.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Westy36 on December 23, 2020, 01:16:53 PM
NHS Fife has a fleet of Nissan e-NV200 vans. NHS Lothian also has a few. Fife Council has a range of electric cars and vans too.

Fantastic. They are ahead of the game there.  :D I don't think any of our councils round here have got EV's yet

Re the Honda E - Bob Flavin recent review "Honda E Living with the little electric car is harder than you think"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYb-vs_q7mw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYb-vs_q7mw)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on December 23, 2020, 03:23:32 PM
I've looked at those NV200 vans, there's someone near me got one. The range on those isn't fantastic.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 23, 2020, 04:42:59 PM
When I was a white van man, I never did more than 100 miles in a shift. For that type of work, they are great.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 28, 2020, 11:29:26 AM
See attached gridwatch uk PDF

Wind gone on holidays again,  taken solar with it - grid getting more from undersea cables ( probably nuclear ) than from wind and solar combined.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 28, 2020, 11:41:28 AM
Don't see what that has to do with electric cars.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 28, 2020, 12:28:29 PM
Don't see what that has to do with electric cars.

It has no relevance if electric cars do not need electricity to run.......

Just showing how precarious our electrical supply has become due to unreliable renewables and no grid storage.  Not a particularly high demand today either at 35GW
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 28, 2020, 01:12:52 PM
National Grid says they will have no problems supplying power for electric cars. The must-have plans in place to mitigate circumstances.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on December 28, 2020, 02:23:36 PM
Don't see what that has to do with electric cars.

It has no relevance if electric cars do not need electricity to run.......

I always find the electricity supply argument against electric vehicles a bit odd when we import the vast majority of our crude oil as well as finished petroleum products from other countries anyway. At least we make the wind and solar power here without reliance upon imported fuels.

I don't think anyone is denying that current infrastructure will have to change, if we are serious about reducing carbon emissions. Renewable and waste energy will need expansion into more reliable sources and storage methods in the medium-long term, as well as additional nuclear base load.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 28, 2020, 02:44:46 PM
National Grid says they will have no problems supplying power for electric cars. The must-have plans in place to mitigate circumstances.

Is there a magic electricity tree as well as the well known magic money tree ?

The Grid nor anyone else can control the weather.. and that is what renewables rely on.

Will the choice be to turn off the heating in the house or charge the car battery ?

PS - just checked gridwatch  site and wind and solar combined are less than 4% of
power going to grid.

Good job a lot of industry on shutdown or demand would be higher still.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on December 28, 2020, 03:07:39 PM
The Grid nor anyone else can control the weather.. and that is what renewables rely on.

Not all of them, and storage is not dependent upon weather either.

Will the choice be to turn off the heating in the house or charge the car battery ?

UK energy consumption for heating had been reducing steadily from around 2000-2010, due to energy conservation measures taken in the past, though it has flattened off since then. I think they see energy saving measures playing a big part in reducing future demand, but that is going to need significantly greater commitment from government... and that seems to have evaporated.

Energy demand from industry is a third of what it was 50 years ago.

In any case, it's not all bad news

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/dec/28/storm-bella-helps-uk-record-wind-power-generation-boxing-day
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TiJazz on December 28, 2020, 05:50:35 PM
On the topic of the E, I test drove one as a possible replacement for my (at the time) Model 3. The E is a great little car, but the range is simply unacceptable for the price.

I also believe the Advance should be priced at the current base model price, and the base model should be ~£24k.

Unfortunately, Honda dealers aren’t being incentivised to sell them and there are no discounts on offer as they’re all made to order.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Westy36 on December 28, 2020, 06:53:32 PM
PS - just checked gridwatch  site and wind and solar combined are less than 4% of
power going to grid.

Good job a lot of industry on shutdown or demand would be higher still.

On Boxing day more than of Great Britains electricity came from wind turbines.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/dec/28/storm-bella-helps-uk-record-wind-power-generation-boxing-day (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/dec/28/storm-bella-helps-uk-record-wind-power-generation-boxing-day)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on December 28, 2020, 07:05:10 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/dec/28/storm-bella-helps-uk-record-wind-power-generation-boxing-day (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/dec/28/storm-bella-helps-uk-record-wind-power-generation-boxing-day)

I plopped that into my earlier post, as I said then, it's not all bad news.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Westy36 on December 28, 2020, 07:23:04 PM
Ooops. Sorry sparky Paul ! Attention to detail lacking.  :D

I recall last year we had several weeks with days of 40+ mph gusts. I own an older house that doesnt have the best roof, so always keep an eye on the wind. Last year we had many storms of the size of the recent storm Bella, so the electricity generated must have been substantial.

I remember reading last year about the Uk being coal free for a long time!

https://www.ecotricity.co.uk/news/news-archive/2020/67-days-coal-free-a-major-milestone-on-the-journey-to-a-greener-britain (https://www.ecotricity.co.uk/news/news-archive/2020/67-days-coal-free-a-major-milestone-on-the-journey-to-a-greener-britain)

The electricity to power cars has to come from somewhere, so if it can be produced without coal, that is a big benefit for the environment.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 28, 2020, 08:03:04 PM
As I posted a couple of weeks ago:

Scotland generated enough electricity from renewable sources last year (2019 - my brackets) to meet the equivalent of 90.1% of its total electricity consumption, according to latest figures.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on December 28, 2020, 08:27:33 PM
Ooops. Sorry sparky Paul ! Attention to detail lacking.  :D

Don't worry, I was only three quarters of an hour in front of you  ;)

It can take me that long to write a post sometimes, especially when I'm cooking...

I remember reading last year about the Uk being coal free for a long time!

It won't be long before coal generation is gone permanently.

As I posted a couple of weeks ago:

Scotland generated enough electricity from renewable sources last year (2019 - my brackets) to meet the equivalent of 90.1% of its total electricity consumption, according to latest figures.

I would love to see a significant proportion of generation come from tidal in Scotland. Someone in the industry told me that the Pentland Firth could supply a majority of Scotland's energy needs if it was effectively harnessed.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on December 28, 2020, 08:36:49 PM
UK energy consumption for heating had been reducing steadily from around 2000-2010, due to energy conservation measures taken in the past, though it has flattened off since then.
However, if we all convert to using heat pumps, as gov't is currently trying to encourage in order to reduce the gas consumption then the electricity demand is likely to increase. 10 million homes using 2kW for heating is another 20GW load on the grid. A substantial proportion of that heating is likely to be turned on at about 5pm thus adding to the early evening peak electricity demand. However, while powering the heat pumps will require extra generating capacity, it won't conflict with charging of EVs which can be done during periods of low electricity demand.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 28, 2020, 08:40:54 PM
I'd love to be able to heat my home on 2 kW of electricity. There are many homes like mine using 6 to 8 kW and still freezing. We have a heated over blanket to try and keep warm, but usually give up and just go to our bed. My wife is away to bed already. It is that cold.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TiJazz on December 28, 2020, 08:52:39 PM
Have you tried an air con/heat pump system?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on December 28, 2020, 09:07:21 PM
Have you tried an air con/heat pump system?

Good suggestion, you can get freestanding portable units which double up as an air conditioner in summer. They are not as efficient as a fixed split circuit air-source system, but can still give out around 3KW of heat for around 1-1.5KW of input.

Might be worth considering, but they do make a little noise.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TiJazz on December 28, 2020, 09:21:28 PM
I’ve had both portable single units and properly installed split systems - if you can get one installed, it’s a thousand times quieter than a portable. Even the outdoor unit barely makes any noise, and the property is a constant temperature all year round with little impact on energy bills.

It’s a ton more efficient than electric panel heaters, and more consistent than central heating.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on December 29, 2020, 05:33:56 AM
After I move, hopefully 2022, I will get a proper split system installed. As said, portable units are very noisy and if you don't seal round the vent hose it partially defeats the object as hot air streams in.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 29, 2020, 07:33:23 AM
Have you tried an air con/heat pump system?
I live in a rented, furnished flat, so I have to make do with what I have.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 29, 2020, 09:36:55 AM
As I posted a couple of weeks ago:

Scotland generated enough electricity from renewable sources last year (2019 - my brackets) to meet the equivalent of 90.1% of its total electricity consumption, according to latest figures.

Its not constant though - and it needs to be at times when it is useable. 

Look at this to show how variable renewables really are.

https://gridwatch.co.uk/renewables/percent/
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 29, 2020, 09:44:31 AM
I’ve had both portable single units and properly installed split systems - if you can get one installed, it’s a thousand times quieter than a portable. Even the outdoor unit barely makes any noise, and the property is a constant temperature all year round with little impact on energy bills.

It’s a ton more efficient than electric panel heaters, and more consistent than central heating.

The efficiency of converting electricity into heat with heatpumps reduces as ambient temperature drops.  To match gas on cost the conversion factor needs to be >5 ( electricity is on average about 5x the cost of gas - and a good boiler is over 90% efficient at converting gas energy to heat ).  There is also the initial cost of the installation to take into account ( payback period ), and maintenance costs. Seems that airsource heatpumps deliver most when you need it least, ground source are better,  but expensive and not available for everyone.

https://aspirationenergy.com/how-low-ambient-temperature-can-affect-your-heat-pump-performance/
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on December 29, 2020, 09:56:38 AM
The efficiency of converting electricity into heat with heatpumps reduces as ambient temperature drops.  To match gas on cost the conversion factor needs to be >5 ( electricity is on average about 5x the cost of gas - and a good boiler is over 90% efficient at converting gas energy to heat ).

There's this wide assumption that everyone has access to mains gas. There's no domestic mains gas near me for miles, ironically there is a gas fired power station.

Jocko's problem is that he's stuck with what he's got. He could use a portable heat pump with very minimal adaptations, any hole in an outside wall can be pressed into service with a bit of duct tape.

It's shameful that people are expected to live in a home that they cannot afford to heat.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 29, 2020, 10:21:41 AM
It's shameful that people are expected to live in a home that they cannot afford to heat.
Thats us OAPs up and down the country.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on December 29, 2020, 11:17:42 AM
It's shameful that people are expected to live in a home that they cannot afford to heat.
Thats us OAPs up and down the country.

My parents have faired okay in their council house, it's been well insulated and has modern gas central heating. It's always toasty warm as they feel the cold, certainly more than I do.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Westy36 on December 29, 2020, 11:47:49 AM
Folk on pre-paid meters pay more for their energy too. Sometime households with the lowest incomes pay the most for their energy. That should not be allowed.

Oh, and how come we have to pay 5% VAT on energy? If there are a lot more cars charging at home, will the fuel tax loss be balanced by an increase in energy VAT?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Westy36 on December 29, 2020, 12:05:10 PM
As I posted a couple of weeks ago:

Scotland generated enough electricity from renewable sources last year (2019 - my brackets) to meet the equivalent of 90.1% of its total electricity consumption, according to latest figures.

Its not constant though - and it needs to be at times when it is useable. 

Look at this to show how variable renewables really are.

https://gridwatch.co.uk/renewables/percent/

Scotland is doing very well with renewables. All those hills and mountains with wind turbines I suppose. :)

Culzean - The gridwatch website is interesting. Thanks for the link.  :) It would appear we lean heavily on Gas Turbine at the moment. Apparently we import upto 50% of this gas.

https://www.ecotricity.co.uk/our-green-energy/energy-independence/an-energy-independent-britain (https://www.ecotricity.co.uk/our-green-energy/energy-independence/an-energy-independent-britain)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 29, 2020, 12:38:45 PM
I would imagine that the greener option, locally for the UK, is to import the generated electricity via cable rather than import the gas and generate electricity. Makes no difference to the world though.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on December 29, 2020, 12:46:58 PM
As I posted a couple of weeks ago:

Scotland generated enough electricity from renewable sources last year (2019 - my brackets) to meet the equivalent of 90.1% of its total electricity consumption, according to latest figures.

Its not constant though - and it needs to be at times when it is useable. 

Look at this to show how variable renewables really are.

https://gridwatch.co.uk/renewables/percent/

Scotland is doing very well with renewables. All those hills and mountains with wind turbines I suppose. :)

Culzean - The gridwatch website is interesting. Thanks for the link.  :) It would appear we lean heavily on Gas Turbine at the moment. Apparently we import upto 50% of this gas.

https://www.ecotricity.co.uk/our-green-energy/energy-independence/an-energy-independent-britain (https://www.ecotricity.co.uk/our-green-energy/energy-independence/an-energy-independent-britain)

Gas turbines keep the Grid running. Approx. 50% plus of electricity in winter.

NO plans to replace them so we will fail -abysmally - to meet CO2 emissions targets.

And for tidal to work it needs energy storage on a massive scale...  HUGE peaks and troughs.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on December 29, 2020, 12:48:25 PM
Oh, and how come we have to pay 5% VAT on energy?

Because that Gordon Brown fellow reduced it to the minimum 5% in 1997, it had been 8% prior to that. The Conservative government at the time was defeated during the 1995 budget debate on their intention to raise VAT on domestic fuel to 17.5%

Now we are no longer members of the EU, we could now reduce VAT on fuel to zero... as was very vocally promised by Messrs Gove and Johnson back in 2016.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on December 29, 2020, 12:50:01 PM
And for tidal to work it needs energy storage on a massive scale...  HUGE peaks and troughs.

That's the beauty of tidal flows, all the peaks and troughs are at very different times around the coast.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 29, 2020, 12:50:23 PM
I have suggested to our new member that he posts here to get this thread back on "Electric cars" track.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on December 29, 2020, 12:54:05 PM
Yes - a welcome addition to the forum having been down the EV route.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on December 29, 2020, 01:13:05 PM
Here's something else to think about.

Established European, Japanese and US manufacturers are pushing EVs decidedly upmarket, and Chinese brands such as MG are beginning to chip away at western markets with cheaper alternatives. Will they allow Chinese manufacturers to secure a significant slice of this mass market, or will they respond?

Many western auto makers have tie ups with China producers, sharing both technology and production facilities for local markets. Are they hoping to use these arrangements to limit the Chinese expansion into western markets?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 29, 2020, 01:17:53 PM
And for tidal to work it needs energy storage on a massive scale...  HUGE peaks and troughs.

That's the beauty of tidal flows, all the peaks and troughs are at very different times around the coast.

Excerpt below from and article on renewable power, 10GW would be about 25% of the demand today,  and that is if we could block off areas like Severn Estuary ( the biggest source of tidal by far ) and Solway Firth,  which would spell the end for many birds and animals that live there.  As soon a blocking off estuaries is mentioned the environmentalists go into a fit....

The UK’s tidal power resource is estimated to be more than 10 gigawatts (GW), representing about 50% of Europe’s tidal energy capacity.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 29, 2020, 01:18:59 PM
Blah, blah blah blah blah.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 29, 2020, 01:22:04 PM
Watched an interesting YouTube video of a couple of used car dealers looking at and discussing a high mileage Tesla Type 3. Seemingly they sell well despite a high price. Bit amateurish but worth a watch.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on December 29, 2020, 01:55:13 PM
The Tesla S is a fabulous car, but the performance is just mental. Makes a lot of sense as a used buy though, with the use of the supercharger network.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Westy36 on December 29, 2020, 04:30:16 PM
Because that Gordon Brown fellow reduced it to the minimum 5% in 1997, it had been 8% prior to that. The Conservative government at the time was defeated during the 1995 budget debate on their intention to raise VAT on domestic fuel to 17.5%

Now we are no longer members of the EU, we could now reduce VAT on fuel to zero... as was very vocally promised by Messrs Gove and Johnson back in 2016.

Interesting to learn the history. Back in the 90's I had no interest in these things. Very different today mind.

I can see in 10-15 yrs time, when lots of EV's are in use, energy VAT being increased as the revenue from petrol/diesel starts dropping of. There will be a fiscal shortfall to be covered somehow.

I learnt today about "vehicle to grid" V2G trials. So, your EVs battery becoming part of the grid for storage and supply purposes. I don't know a whole lot about EV batteries, but I do understand that charging them up over time reduces their capacity. I don't think I would be happy to have my EV's battery used in such a way. Elon Musk comments https://thedriven.io/2020/09/23/musk-downplays-vehicle-to-grid-technology-it-has-lower-utility-than-you-think/ (https://thedriven.io/2020/09/23/musk-downplays-vehicle-to-grid-technology-it-has-lower-utility-than-you-think/) 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 29, 2020, 06:51:46 PM
Because that Gordon Brown fellow reduced it to the minimum 5% in 1997, it had been 8% prior to that. The Conservative government at the time was defeated during the 1995 budget debate on their intention to raise VAT on domestic fuel to 17.5%

Now we are no longer members of the EU, we could now reduce VAT on fuel to zero... as was very vocally promised by Messrs Gove and Johnson back in 2016.
Y:
Interesting to learn the history. Back in the 90's I had no interest in these things. Very different today mind.

I can see in 10-15 yrs time, when lots of EV's are in use, energy VAT being increased as the revenue from petrol/diesel starts dropping of. There will be a fiscal shortfall to be covered somehow.

I learnt today about "vehicle to grid" V2G trials. So, your EVs battery becoming part of the grid for storage and supply purposes. I don't know a whole lot about EV batteries, but I do understand that charging them up over time reduces their capacity. I don't think I would be happy to have my EV's battery used in such a way. Elon Musk comments https://thedriven.io/2020/09/23/musk-downplays-vehicle-to-grid-technology-it-has-lower-utility-than-you-think/ (https://thedriven.io/2020/09/23/musk-downplays-vehicle-to-grid-technology-it-has-lower-utility-than-you-think/)

Raising VAT on electricity will affect everyone who uses it, it is just not feasible - it will be seen as another poll tax..The revenue raiser will be a chip in the vehicle and road pricing per mile, and rate will depend on whether road is rural or urban.. When enough people have electric cars they may well be included in road tax net... but government will not spring that one just yet, don't want to scare people off..

Using vehicle batteries is another fudge by governments, a cheap way of grid storage, but as you say every charge / discharge cycle uses up battery life.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 29, 2020, 07:03:50 PM
According to the two car dealers, the Tesla downloads are brilliant. The download they discuss allow drivers of the four-wheel-drive versions to set the torque between the front and rear wheels, depending on taste. Not something that the average driver would want to play with but great for the enthusiast. Set it for predominately front wheels, 50:50 or 70% rear wheels, whatever is required.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TiJazz on December 30, 2020, 12:29:00 AM
So here’s my journey from EV to Jazz as promised:

After a couple of years without a car, I chose a Renault Zoe 22kWh when the time came in late 2018. After all, the future was electric right? The Renault dealer said it’d do 90-100 odd miles, and I knew there was a charger at my local gym so I could fill it up once a week.

At this time, my previous car was a manual Fiat 500 - which was trash - so the Zoe blew my mind at first with its smooth drive and toys (a reversing camera and speed limiter!!)

However... It quickly became apparent that total reliance on one single place to fill up my car wasn’t the greatest idea - there was always the worry that the charger would be out of service or there’d be a petrol car parked in the space, so I had to charge at really odd times like early on a Sunday etc.

The bigger issue was that the real world range was about 70 miles, unless I drove very slowly indeed. So I tried that. The problem is that when you drive in the left lane of a dual carriageway at 60mph, people love to pull out on you at junctions. So that wasn’t great.

Thankfully as it turns out, we didn’t really need a car at the time - so we sold up.

Interestingly enough, the gym charger stopped working shortly afterwards and still has not been fixed 18 months later - I would have been screwed had I kept Zoe, as there are no other nearby working chargers (there are a few broken ones).

After a period of renting EVs for various trips (Zoe 40, e Golf, Model S) where we made use of destination charging, my Tesla Model 3 order finally arrived in late 2019 through a subscription service.

Around this time, we moved somewhere with at-home charging. The best electric car on the market and home charging - what could be better?

Many, many things as it turns out. The “vampire drain” with the Tesla was insane. It would consume kWh after kWh for no real reason while parked and plugged in, even with the recommended sleep settings.

Additionally, the car itself was hugely unreliable. Random and total camera/sensor and nav system failures were commonplace, as well as a flaky update process (I once spent an hour on the phone to Tesla trying to get it to update), and occasional random error messages on startup that seemed to appear and disappeared with lunar cycles or something(!)

The home charger also started playing up, sometimes ignoring my RFID card (as apartment charging, it was owned and operated by a third party) and refusing to start a charge.

So now I had an unreliable car and an unreliable charger!

The car finally embarrassed itself once too often by ploughing into a solid object on autopilot, so after a brief call to the subscription company along the lines of “I’m cancelling my subscription, come and collect your heap”, I (literally) walked away and vowed to stay away from Tesla’s.

Another couple of EV rentals and test drives followed - a Zoe ZE50 and Honda E (crazy overpriced!) were the highlights - but mostly we Uber’d places.

Unfortunately it’s now well into 2020... so Uber drivers had started bathing their car interiors in chlorine, then sealing you behind a plastic screen to choke on it - still asking for 5 stars at the end of the trip, of course (assuming you were still alive)!

I figured it was time to buy another car. The MG eZS had impressed me greatly on a test drive, so I duly picked up a pre reg model with a 1 week delivery time.

The MG was a fantastic car - great performance, features, and range for the price.

Unfortunately, the home charger was still sporadically refusing to start a charge.

Despite endless calls and emails, nobody wanted to take responsibility and fix it - so I gave an ultimatum that if things weren’t sorted in a week, I’d “claim” the charger digitally and reconfigure it myself - funnily enough, things then seemed to improve for a while...

But wait, there’s more!

The final straw came when the charger developed a new fault of stopping midway through a charge. A call to the charging company revealed that they no longer had any interest in talking to me (guess they were bored of me asking them to fix it). Building management were as clueless as ever.

So the next day I went to Honda, asked them to slap some number plates on that new Jazz Crosstar they had sitting outside, and collected it a few days later in exchange for the MG.

The Jazz Crosstar is familiar to me - my old man has one - and I’d always said it would be my first choice if I needed a hybrid. The smoothness of electric motor drive, coupled with the reliability of fossil fuel infrastructure and a ~500 mile range, is perfect for today’s world IMO.

I’m also very impressed with the overall quality - whereas with an EV, a lot of the car’s cost is clearly the batteries. For example, the Tesla has the interior and build quality of a sub-£20k car, and the additional £20k of batteries is what makes it £40k. Likewise, the MG is a £12k car with £12k of batteries etc.

With the Jazz, you can tell most of the cost is the car itself, with a few grand of hybrid tech and a £200 battery on top.

In conclusion, I hope to keep the Jazz for a good while! Would I return to EV? In 5-10 years perhaps, when the tech has matured into something robust and reliable.

Tldr:
Despite manufacturer marketing suggesting otherwise, the main barriers to electric car ownership are the same as they were a decade ago - price, range, and availability/reliability of charging.

Also, Tesla’s are rubbish.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 30, 2020, 06:57:40 AM
Your Tesla certainly sounds like it. So other than your Tesla the only fly in the ointment appeared to be third party chargers. I intend to have my own charger in my drive (when I move, hopefully sometime soon). As an OAP, my mileage by then will only be a handful of miles a week (probably even a Granny lead would meet my charging requirements!). From your experience would an EV suit me. I am currently looking at the MG5 EV.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on December 30, 2020, 10:04:44 AM
I'm pretty sure I wouldn't even entertain the idea of an EV if I couldn't charge it at home, from my own electricity supply.

As soon as you start using third party charging networks, the running cost advantages soon evaporate - and that's without the consideration of the inconvenience, and the downright disaster of being stuck at a non-working charger.

However, if you can charge from home and use the range available from there for the vast majority of your driving, as I almost certainly could, then I see no problem. Even if you were forced to use it for a longer journey on occasions, the motorway charging infrastructure is much more accessible, properly maintained and reliable.

Bottom line, I would love an EV for all the day to day running about, it would charge at home on cheap night rate electric, and I'm sure it would fit in with our lifestyle... but we run two cars, and I would keep the big diesel for the long journeys, certainly for now.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on December 30, 2020, 10:23:29 AM
Great summary of your EV experience TiJazz. This is really helpful because it balances out the "best thing since sliced bread" attitude of many, not all, but many EV drivers.

The Tesla reliability issue is most definitely a thing. James and Kate did a video on YouTube where James was complaining at some length about reliability issues to the point that he just wanted rid of the thing. It was a model 3.

I think things will be very different even in 5 years from now. My own situation is frustrating in that even an old Nissan Leaf would do most of my stuff - it's those half dozen or so trips a year where only a guaranteed, no compromise 200 miles range would do. The infrastructure is not even close to being adequate at the moment.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Westy36 on December 30, 2020, 10:29:40 AM
On Autotrader today, there are 400 Tesla examples for sale. A very small number of vehicles, and having read TiJazz review and others, I'm not tempted. I would love a drive in one to experience the acceleration, but I wont be owning one.

Autotrader today did throw up a real world possibility howewver. An MG ZS ev. Brand new with a 7 year warranty for just under £19000.

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/new/202009083466741?onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly%20New&onesearchad=Used&postcode=ip11aa&advertising-location=at_cars&include-delivery-option=on&newCarHasDeal=on&radius=1500&fuel-type=Electric&sort=price-asc&page=1 (https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/new/202009083466741?onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly%20New&onesearchad=Used&postcode=ip11aa&advertising-location=at_cars&include-delivery-option=on&newCarHasDeal=on&radius=1500&fuel-type=Electric&sort=price-asc&page=1)

It's the used marked I will be in when the EV time arrives. Things will need to change a lot. I've just logged into my Manheim Auctions account, and at the moment out of the 8000+ cars they have listed, > 0.5% are electric cars. Mostly Nissan Leaf and Renault Zoe.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on December 30, 2020, 11:09:45 AM
The Tesla model 3 certainly gets some flak for build quality and reliability, but I get the impression that model S owners are much more content on the whole, and you do see cars with big mileages on them. Despite all the problems that customers have with the cars, I still think it's remarkable what Tesla have achieved in such a short space of time. After all, look at some of the rubbish that the big auto makers have churned out over the years, some right lemons.

However, when the Japanese design and build something, we know that they invariably do it well. The Nissan Leaf is really well put together, and on the whole, has been a paragon of reliability - especially when compared to the Tesla. I have this sneaking feeling that the Chinese are coming, and I think the quality will be there too... just look at the Xpeng P7.

Cars like the MG EVs are great value, if you can manage with the slightly restricted range of the current cars, although a new ZS is currently being introduced to other markets with a bigger battery and much better range. I do wonder if China is going to corner the cheaper end of the market, there seems to be a gaping hole being left by the established auto makers, who still seem to see this as a niche market, with companies like Honda building cars with niche appeal.

That's not to say that China will neglect the premium sector. I think Tesla are going to have real problems with companies like Xpeng, unless they get their act together, and soon.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 30, 2020, 11:20:05 AM
MG5 has a quoted range of 214 miles and a city range of 276 miles. From family estate.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on December 30, 2020, 12:42:25 PM
MG5 has a quoted range of 214 miles and a city range of 276 miles. From family estate.

The MG 5 is a great car for the money, you know what a fan I am, but I was really referring more to the MG ZS. I think the official range is 163 miles, and the site you linked to earlier quotes a real life range of 135 miles, and 175 miles for the MG 5.

Now, 135 miles would probably be enough for the vast majority of our daily driving, and I would love one as a daily driver, but I can see it being problematic for the many owners who have access to only one car. If public transport was better, maybe it wouldn't be such an issue, but sub-200 miles range in some weathers just doesn't cut it for many people.

For comparison, my diesel estate car will comfortably do 800 motorway miles on a full tank, 900 if you're very careful.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TiJazz on December 30, 2020, 12:51:18 PM
I would absolutely recommend an MG if you have reliable home charging - that is, a “dumb” 7kw charger or a 3 pin. I wouldn’t touch the flaky “smart” rubbish.

Re the Model S, the rental I had experienced exactly the same sensor suite and nav failures as my Model 3 - and the S was the £90k 100D model!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 30, 2020, 03:00:34 PM
the site you linked to earlier quotes a real life range of 135 miles, and 175 miles for the MG 5.
The EV database has not tested it, and the figure is their estimate. The following pertains to the WLTP figures.

MG5 EV has a WLTP approved combined range of 214 miles in normal day-to-day use. This rises to 276 miles if the car is used solely for urban driving, as confirmed by the WLTP City driving cycle.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 31, 2020, 09:39:00 AM
This is the one for me. And definitely in the Dynamic Red.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on December 31, 2020, 09:50:43 AM
This is the one for me. And definitely in the Dynamic Red.

I think Jocko's hooked  ;D
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TiJazz on December 31, 2020, 02:20:20 PM
If you’re thinking of buying an MG5, wait for the European facelift next year - they’re adding Pilot, a load of active safety stuff and most likely better crumple zones.

The current MG5 is literally a Roewe with UK plates - there’s a reason they won’t put it through NCAP.

Same with the ZS vs the eZS - the eZS has a ton of euro specific safety additions.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Westy36 on January 01, 2021, 11:30:06 AM
Range anxiety is one of the issues for me with EV's, that and the problems with finding a working charger when I need one.

I took this photo yesterday. Surely has to be every Tesla drivers dream.  :D
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: hemming on January 01, 2021, 12:01:53 PM
According to "Which", during 2020, car enquiries/searches on their website were dominated by hybrid and electric vehicles. Apparently those related to petrol and diesel cars did not appear in the top six numerically.
On Parkers site owners' reviews of non current Leafs seem to show an average range of c60 miles which would seem to appeal only to a fairly specific sector of the market (e.g. Jocko, if his move comes off).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TiJazz on January 01, 2021, 01:58:51 PM
@Westy yeah, Tesla removes the range anxiety and charger availability barrier. Unfortunately the cars are expensive and unreliable.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 04, 2021, 01:06:15 PM
I have signed up to the MG5 forum, and I am finding some interesting information.

One guy replaced his Volvo X90 with an MG5 and was impressed with the quality of the MG. Another contributor suggested he would have been cheaper buying a nearly new Volvo X40. He replied that he saves £265/month in fuel (the difference between petrol and electricity). This almost covers his car payments—something I have never considered for high mileage motorists.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on January 04, 2021, 01:50:54 PM
Another contributor suggested he would have been cheaper buying a nearly new Volvo X40. He replied that he saves £265/month in fuel (the difference between petrol and electricity). This almost covers his car payments—something I have never considered for high mileage motorists.

Even for lower mileage owners, the fuel savings must be factored in to ongoing ownership costs. Fuel cost are the single biggest cost of running a vehicle, and there are significant savings to be made if you are organised. Some can even charge at home for free if they have solar panels or wind turbines.

Have you seen the news that there's a cheaper small MG EV that's on the cards Jocko?

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/electric-cars/mg-poised-launch-compact-electric-hatchback
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on January 04, 2021, 03:58:31 PM
Even for lower mileage owners, the fuel savings must be factored in to ongoing ownership costs. Fuel cost are the single biggest cost of running a vehicle, and there are significant savings to be made if you are organised. Some can even charge at home for free if they have solar panels or wind turbines.
Whilst I could charge at home for 5p/kWh using the Octopus Go tariff (but limited to 4 hours at night) what put me off is the typically 30p/kWh rate for using public chargers. Assuming 4 miles per kWh that's 7.5p/mile (not allowing for power losses) which is in the same cost range as I was seeing for my Crosstar during the summer when most of my miles are travelled (ie 70mpg at about £1.15p per litre). More than half my annual miles is on longer trips where I would need to use public chargers. EVs, however, can provide a substantial running cost saving for commuters whose daily journey is well within the vehicles's range and ability to charge using cheap night-time electricity.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on January 04, 2021, 04:30:44 PM
Whilst I could charge at home for 5p/kWh using the Octopus Go tariff (but limited to 4 hours at night) what put me off is the typically 30p/kWh rate for using public chargers.

I agree, public charging can be crippling, although the prices are all over the place. For example, the nearest public chargers to me are in the local town centre car park, at 20p/KWh or 12p if you are a BP Pulse member, or Shell Recharge on the A1 at 39p/KWh  :o

In East Midlands area, I can get a 2 year fixed economy 7 tariff with edf at 6.29p for night units, obviously that's for 7 hours... but the real savings are to be made with their own microgeneration.

EVs, however, can provide a substantial running cost saving for commuters whose daily journey is well within the vehicles's range and ability to charge using cheap night-time electricity.

That's more or less where I fit in, I would say well over 95% of journeys are reasonably local and within the range of a modest EV. Although I did say my other car will do 800+ miles on a tank filling, I make only a few journeys a year where that is in any way useful.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TiJazz on January 04, 2021, 04:31:01 PM
The maths work for high mileage drivers. For folk who do little miles like myself, there isn’t much in it. The Tesla would eat £12 of electricity just sat idle plugged in every month, for example. Petrol cars don’t leak fuel on your driveway.

Even when my home charging became free, it was still so much more convenient to spend five minutes and £40 chucking fuel in the tank than it was to deal with unreliable home charging and having to charge at destination.

Right now, I put fuel in the tank, I’m good for 500 miles (4 months +) and have no hassle.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on January 04, 2021, 06:08:59 PM
Another contributor suggested he would have been cheaper buying a nearly new Volvo X40. He replied that he saves £265/month in fuel (the difference between petrol and electricity). This almost covers his car payments—something I have never considered for high mileage motorists.

Even for lower mileage owners, the fuel savings must be factored in to ongoing ownership costs. Fuel cost are the single biggest cost of running a vehicle, and there are significant savings to be made if you are organised. Some can even charge at home for free if they have solar panels or wind turbines.

Have you seen the news that there's a cheaper small MG EV that's on the cards Jocko?

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/electric-cars/mg-poised-launch-compact-electric-hatchback

Depreciation is often a higher cost especially with a low mileage car bought from new.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 04, 2021, 07:49:24 PM
Have you seen the news that there's a cheaper small MG EV that's on the cards Jocko?
I will certainly look at what MG is offering when I come to buy. I like the range of the MG5. I also like the big car having nearly always owned big cars. Despite my missus and I having driven one and a half times around the equator in the Jazz my wife still pines for our Volvo S40.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Westy36 on January 05, 2021, 04:43:29 PM
Well, according to this, MG's market share is increasing rapidly. No doubt helped by their electric cars. MG are approaching Honda UK market share %.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/features/winners-and-losers-2020-uk-car-market?utm_source=20210105&utm_medium=EMAIL&utm_campaign=&utm_content=ACAR%20ENews%20Bulletin%20-%20SUBS%20AD%20V5%20(TUESDAY)%20(42)::hero_readmore (https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/features/winners-and-losers-2020-uk-car-market?utm_source=20210105&utm_medium=EMAIL&utm_campaign=&utm_content=ACAR%20ENews%20Bulletin%20-%20SUBS%20AD%20V5%20(TUESDAY)%20(42)::hero_readmore)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Westy36 on January 05, 2021, 04:47:13 PM
@Westy yeah, Tesla removes the range anxiety and charger availability barrier. Unfortunately the cars are expensive and unreliable.

Indeed. I had a look on Autotrader at used prices. Even with 6 figure mileages, they are very expensive. Not even close to the amount of money I am prepared to spend on a car.

Re reliability, the aftermarket warranty companies will have some good data in the near future, so we can find out what they really cost.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on January 05, 2021, 04:50:36 PM
Things moving on apace in Norway

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jan/05/electric-cars-record-market-share-norway
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TiJazz on January 05, 2021, 05:47:31 PM
@Westy they go wrong from new, so most likely the car will already have been fixed/returned by later in its life. Either that or the issues appear and disappear with software. They won’t ever see a normal garage - drivetrain and oily bits are fine - the PDI process and software are the questionable part.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on January 05, 2021, 09:26:38 PM
The maths work for high mileage drivers. For folk who do little miles like myself, there isn’t much in it. The Tesla would eat £12 of electricity just sat idle plugged in every month, for example. Petrol cars don’t leak fuel on your driveway.

Even when my home charging became free, it was still so much more convenient to spend five minutes and £40 chucking fuel in the tank than it was to deal with unreliable home charging and having to charge at destination.

Right now, I put fuel in the tank, I’m good for 500 miles (4 months +) and have no hassle.

About where I am. I last refuelled on the 30th of November and, since then, I've done 119 miles. The cost of petrol is borderline insignificant to me. EV's make great sense for high mileage drivers especially if that high mileage consists of shortish trips.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 06, 2021, 09:29:02 AM
My petrol for December cost me £155.34 and this month looks like it will be as bad. The longest journey I make is a round trip of 90 miles.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on January 06, 2021, 10:00:46 AM
About where I am. I last refuelled on the 30th of November and, since then, I've done 119 miles. The cost of petrol is borderline insignificant to me.

Bit like my Dad, he usually chugs up less than 1,000 miles between MOTs.

We are rural though, and you can't avoid racking up the miles. Nearest supermarket is a 20 mile round trip, and school runs (if they ever go back to school) are over 15 miles, sometimes 3 times a day with them both being in 6th form. What public bus service we had was chopped when 'austerity' kicked in. There is a school bus, but it costs more than the petrol when they have to pay full adult fare.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TiJazz on January 06, 2021, 11:22:46 AM
Ocado  ;D
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinS on January 06, 2021, 11:27:43 AM
My petrol for December cost me £155.34 and this month looks like it will be as bad. The longest journey I make is a round trip of 90 miles.
My petrol bill for the whole of 2020 was £332.45 :).  Without coronavirus 2019 cost me £1586.70
 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on January 06, 2021, 01:08:29 PM
My petrol for the whole of 2019 was ~£40. Did just over 900 miles and started out with a full tank

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on January 07, 2021, 10:12:55 AM
My petrol for December cost me £155.34 and this month looks like it will be as bad. The longest journey I make is a round trip of 90 miles.

Compelling case for an EV but I think you have said that before.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 07, 2021, 10:20:19 AM
Compelling case for an EV but I think you have said that before.
I have been speaking to my local MG dealer. Once lockdown is over, I will arrange a test drive, though he is happy for me to have a drive now, as long as I arrange a time beforehand.

(https://i.imgur.com/QK9OWJs.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Westy36 on January 08, 2021, 02:00:51 PM
SMMT Decemeber 2020 figures are in. No1 seller, Tesla 5798 cars. No 4 VW ID 3188 cars.  EV sales are up 186% from last year! Gaining traction it would appear.

https://www.smmt.co.uk/vehicle-data/car-registrations/ (https://www.smmt.co.uk/vehicle-data/car-registrations/)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 12, 2021, 07:06:25 AM
While dropping my wife off at the hospital where she works this morning, one of the NHS Nissan EV vans came in. The driver went away into the hospital to drop off or pick something up and left the van sitting with its headlights on. He obviously doesn't have "range anxiety". I know they are LED lights, but he was still confident the van would have the range for his shift.

As an aside, I see Elon Musk is now the worlds richest man. Not too shabby for a self-made-man.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on January 12, 2021, 07:45:50 AM
If his dosh is in cryptocurrency he could have problems.

Lost 25% and some pundits reckon they could be worthless if the trend continues.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 12, 2021, 08:08:22 AM
Bitcoin is actually up 25% in the last 7 days. My grandson actually holds some Bitcoin. Thinks it is the future.

https://www.skrill.com/en/crypto/live-cryptocurrency-prices/ (https://www.skrill.com/en/crypto/live-cryptocurrency-prices/)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on January 12, 2021, 12:03:41 PM
BBC must have been wrong then and since corrected themselves.

They did say down 25% a day or 2 ago.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest4871 on January 12, 2021, 12:18:37 PM
BBC must have been wrong then and since corrected themselves.

They did say down 25% a day or 2 ago.


You may well be right.

CNBC UPDATED MON, JAN 11 2021 8:53 PM EST

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/11/bitcoin-btc-price-nearly-170-billion-wiped-off-entire-cryptocurrency-market.html

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on January 12, 2021, 12:48:55 PM
BBC must have been wrong then and since corrected themselves.

They did say down 25% a day or 2 ago.


You may well be right.

CNBC UPDATED MON, JAN 11 2021 8:53 PM EST

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/11/bitcoin-btc-price-nearly-170-billion-wiped-off-entire-cryptocurrency-market.html

Interesting article about bitcoin and its lack of any intrinsic value... crypto currency is like buying shares in a company that does not have a product or assets. Has been described as a Ponzi scheme.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonbloomberg/2017/06/26/what-is-bitcoins-elusive-intrinsic-value/?sh=217d5d907194
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on January 12, 2021, 12:55:16 PM
Bitcoin is currently down about 14% from the peak at the end of last week, but that's because of profit taking due to all the warnings over the weekend, and after a massive increase in value - up 100% in the last month, and 500% over the year.

Bitcoin is highly volatile, but terrifies banks and governments all over the world - and they will not give in easily... but I think it will succeed.


Interesting article about bitcoin and its lack of any intrinsic value... crypto currency is like buying shares in a company that does not have a product or assets. Has been described as a Ponzi scheme.

It's the same as paper money. It only has to be universally accepted as currency.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: 123Drive! on January 12, 2021, 03:43:37 PM
A friend bored out of his brains during the Lockdown, he WhatsApp me the prices on drivethedeal. I couldn't believe a VW id3 was only £26k with all the discount. Definitely affordable for most people on a PCP.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Westy36 on January 12, 2021, 04:06:22 PM
There are some good PCP deals around for EV's. If that is how you buy your car, and range isn't an issue, EV has to be an option. The ID3 was Decembers 4th best selling car.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TiJazz on January 12, 2021, 07:19:18 PM
Also riddled with software issues... the old eGolf is a better bet.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Westy36 on January 13, 2021, 10:04:17 AM
Also riddled with software issues... the old eGolf is a better bet.
Braver man than me buying a modern complex VW. They are too happy to let their customers do the testing for them.

https://www.carscoops.com/2021/01/vw-recalls-56000-golf-models-plagued-by-software-issues/ (https://www.carscoops.com/2021/01/vw-recalls-56000-golf-models-plagued-by-software-issues/)

What is it with VW and the environment? Dieselgate..... and now they are causing 56000 cars to be driven to their dealerships and back again, creating a heap of emissions in the process!! >:(
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on January 13, 2021, 11:37:46 AM
Also riddled with software issues... the old eGolf is a better bet.
Braver man than me buying a modern complex VW. They are too happy to let their customers do the testing for them.

https://www.carscoops.com/2021/01/vw-recalls-56000-golf-models-plagued-by-software-issues/ (https://www.carscoops.com/2021/01/vw-recalls-56000-golf-models-plagued-by-software-issues/)

What is it with VW and the environment? Dieselgate..... and now they are causing 56000 cars to be driven to their dealerships and back again, creating a heap of emissions in the process!! >:(

I have heard adverts on radio 'if you had a Mercedes xxxxx made between 20xx and 20xx  you may be owed £thousands in compensation due to their use of illegal emissions software' --- should we be hearing this for VW as well.. ( and others )... looks like the new PPI wave for lawyers...
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 13, 2021, 12:53:54 PM
That and the BA data loss class action.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Westy36 on January 13, 2021, 03:20:40 PM
I have heard adverts on radio 'if you had a Mercedes xxxxx made between 20xx and 20xx  you may be owed £thousands in compensation due to their use of illegal emissions software' --- should we be hearing this for VW as well.. ( and others )... looks like the new PPI wave for lawyers...

There is a group action against VW in the UK. It stands a fair chance of getting people compensation.
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/dieselgate-volkswagen-loses-appeal-over-uk-group-action-lawsuit (https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/dieselgate-volkswagen-loses-appeal-over-uk-group-action-lawsuit)

In the USA, VW just bought the cars back. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/22/business/volkswagen-diesel-vw-tdi-resales.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/22/business/volkswagen-diesel-vw-tdi-resales.html)

In the UK, they continue to be evasive. The EA189 fix is still being carried out on cars, even though VW are aware of EGR & injector problems. They give a 24 month warranty post fix, but after that, you're on your own. Absolute shambles, and they treat Uk customers appallingly.

Google modern VAG: 1.8 TFSi oil consumption & valves, 2.0 TFSi+1.8 timing chain woes, EGR + Injectors on the 1.6 TDi, 1.4 TSi twin turbo, 1.2 + 1.4 TSi early timing chains and the ABS teves scandal. DSG box. Columbus Sat navs. 1.5 TSi kangarooing in 1st ..I could go on..... >:(

My Jazz no badge snobbery, scratchy plastics and none of that lovely VAG build quality feeling. But all of the bits that actualy make a car work and go are where Honda score. What use is a soft touch door capping and cool germanic design when it's broken down?? I'll take the Honda please.  :D
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on January 13, 2021, 03:26:25 PM
My Jazz no badge snobbery, scratchy plastics and none of that lovely VAG build quality feeling. But all of the bits that actualy make a car work and go are where Honda score. What use is a soft touch door capping and cool germanic design when it's broken down?? I'll take the Honda please.  :D

Germans still did not get the hang of lovely dashboards with veneer like British.  There used to be a joke about Skoda cars ( the older models ) -

'get a Skoda with a heated rear window if you can,  it will help keep your hands warm when you are pushing it'.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Westy36 on January 13, 2021, 03:50:41 PM
Germans still did not get the hang of lovely dashboards with veneer like British.  There used to be a joke about Skoda cars ( the older models ) -

'get a Skoda with a heated rear window if you can,  it will help keep your hands warm when you are pushing it'.

Ah the old Skoda jokes. I had a 135 Rapid old Skoda. So much fun. Given the materials Skoda were supplied with and the work force they had, the rear engined Skoda's were good cars. Used to do really well in the rallies too. :D

The Bertone designed Favorit, followed by the Felicia (first car post VAG purchase) started to get Skoda taken more seriously. The MK1 Octavia was the end of the jokes, if not the badge snobbery. I've mentioned my 12yr ownership of a MK1 Octi before so I am very biased. Fan of the brand and even took a factory tour in Mlada Boleslav in 2012.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on January 13, 2021, 04:43:54 PM
Ah the old Skoda jokes.
What do you call a Skoda with a sunroof? A skip.

I very nearly got an Octavia Scout let time around and for a while was wanting a Yeti. Think it was the name that put me off the Yeti in the end.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 13, 2021, 05:02:26 PM
The singer in our band bought a brand new Skoda Rapid (rear engine, Czech, jobbie). He had a 16-mile drive home from the dealership but didn't make it. It broke down. AA man said it was the newest car he had ever been called out to.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on January 13, 2021, 05:08:11 PM
The singer in our band bought a brand new Skoda Rapide (rear engine jobbie). He had a 16 mile drive home from the dealership but didn't make it. It broke down. AA man said it was the newest car he had ever been called out to.
My Freelander was the same. Drove it home. Something fell off and the driver's power window failed. Mixture of minor and major faults meant it was in the dealership 17 times in the 18 months it took me to persuade our Fleet supplier that it was a terrible car.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 13, 2021, 05:17:05 PM
Six months after he got it, Kenny tried to trade it in, against a brand new Ford Orion. The Ford dealer said no thanks, and wouldn't even give him a trade-in price however poor.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on January 13, 2021, 07:53:43 PM
The singer in our band bought a brand new Skoda Rapid (rear engine, Czech, jobbie). He had a 16-mile drive home from the dealership but didn't make it. It broke down. AA man said it was the newest car he had ever been called out to.

Despite all the jokes, they did have a following. There was a small family firm in the town nearest to where I grew up, they had streams of repeat customers and waiting lists for new ones. Like Reliants and Ladas. they were more popular up here in the north, where we know a bargain!  :D

You try buying a 136 Rapid now, they're worth a small fortune!.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Westy36 on January 14, 2021, 04:12:19 PM
Woops, I've done it again. I think I might change my user name to Tangent Ted !!  :D This is supposed to be about electric cars and not my passion for Skoda and my modern VAG rant tendancies!

Oh no SparkyPaul, dont mention Ladas and Reliants! I'm doomed to deviate now....LOL  ;D

With much restraint back to electric cars. A very bad day for Elon

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-55662657 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-55662657)

Can I rant about too much tech in cars now please.!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on January 14, 2021, 04:34:16 PM
Does an electric moped count ?

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/354030/pure-electric-silence-e-moto-moped-launched
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 14, 2021, 05:23:50 PM
With much restraint back to electric cars. A very bad day for Elon
All the things that fail are the things we all go on about being unnecessary. None of the items would affect safety as far as I am concerned but would certainly impact the average Tesla driver.
No demisting. Oh dear. You carry a smelly damp cloth like I used to do!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on January 14, 2021, 05:35:41 PM
A very bad day for Elon

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-55662657 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-55662657)

I doubt he'll be too worried, he was the world's richest man for four days  ;)

Here's a Honda and electric car link... Tesla Swindon?

https://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/19010702.swindon-council-leaders-letter-invites-elon-musk-build-tesla-factory-swindon/

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Westy36 on January 14, 2021, 06:06:56 PM
Does an electric moped count ?
Actualy yes. E bikes are the way forward. Most bikes cover small daily mileages, and being low weight, are perfectly suited to the role. The guy that owns Royal Enfield has bought BSA brand and plans to build E bikes here in the UK. They are the future!  ;)

All the things that fail are the things we all go on about being unnecessary. None of the items would affect safety as far as I am concerned but would certainly impact the average Tesla driver.
No demisting. Oh dear. You carry a smelly damp cloth like I used to do!
Absolutely.  Its the unnecessary gubbins that goes wrong. I was reading today about being able to get your twitter feed and such live on your cars screens! What the flip is that about? Re the damp cloth, they wouldn't have a clue. I've had cars with starting handles, try that on your Tesla when it comes up with a fatal programme error.  :D

I don't think Elon will be worried, but his shareholders will be. Tesla has got to the too big to fail stage with the amount of money involved. The share price vs earnings are just fantasy land. Mind you, what isn't these days.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TiJazz on January 14, 2021, 06:57:43 PM
I had exactly the same issues in my Model 3. In the old S and X, these problems are caused by the solid state memory reaching its max read/write cycles. In the 3 they were caused by wires randomly shorting against bodywork. Build quality issues will always dog Tesla.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 14, 2021, 07:09:50 PM
Build quality issues will always dog Tesla.
Build quality of Japanese cars were rubbish at one time. Their cars and bikes got the tag "Jap crap" for a reason.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on January 14, 2021, 07:36:50 PM
Agreed. In terms of car manufacturers, Tesla is just an infant.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 14, 2021, 08:58:36 PM
Airbnb scheme for home charging stations.

https://co-charger.com/?gclid=Cj0KCQiA9P__BRC0ARIsAEZ6irjzAtZvb2arFOvDMACYDE91fCMFgE3Gje6wZdVXCiFqInrQny3cw4QaAm2MEALw_wcB (https://co-charger.com/?gclid=Cj0KCQiA9P__BRC0ARIsAEZ6irjzAtZvb2arFOvDMACYDE91fCMFgE3Gje6wZdVXCiFqInrQny3cw4QaAm2MEALw_wcB)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on January 14, 2021, 10:05:20 PM
Airbnb scheme for home charging stations.

https://co-charger.com/?gclid=Cj0KCQiA9P__BRC0ARIsAEZ6irjzAtZvb2arFOvDMACYDE91fCMFgE3Gje6wZdVXCiFqInrQny3cw4QaAm2MEALw_wcB (https://co-charger.com/?gclid=Cj0KCQiA9P__BRC0ARIsAEZ6irjzAtZvb2arFOvDMACYDE91fCMFgE3Gje6wZdVXCiFqInrQny3cw4QaAm2MEALw_wcB)
Now this is a potential game changer. Something to break the impasse.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on January 15, 2021, 11:28:28 AM
Another Tesla problem https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-55662657 . Too many essential features integrated into a touchscreen system with a shorter life expectancy than the vehicle.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on January 15, 2021, 11:43:47 AM
With everything built into a central touchscreen and the current law prohibiting 'fiddling' with distracting, eyes off road, phones and satnavs, I wonder how they feel about centre car touchscreen 'fiddling' ?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TiJazz on January 15, 2021, 12:12:45 PM
You don’t operate it while driving. Although there is a lot of critical stuff on there, it’s all things you’d configure before driving such as AP options, headlight angle, climate, auto wipers on/off etc. During driving, you don’t ever need to change config.

ACC speed is a scroll wheel on the steering wheel (although that’s also usually automatic), so is stereo volume IIRC.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on January 15, 2021, 12:18:26 PM
You don’t operate it while driving. Although there is a lot of critical stuff on there, it’s all things you’d configure before driving such as AP options, headlight angle, climate, auto wipers on/off etc. During driving, you don’t ever need to change config.

ACC speed is a scroll wheel on the steering wheel (although that’s also usually automatic), so is stereo volume IIRC.

I would expect pretty comprehensive audio system controls on the steering wheel, but what about heating controls, stuff like that?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TiJazz on January 15, 2021, 01:53:39 PM
Set temp before driving and the “idea” is that you won’t need to change it.

This is of course different in practice for some folk.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on January 15, 2021, 02:55:44 PM
Set temp before driving and the “idea” is that you won’t need to change it.

This is of course different in practice for some folk.

I'm not in the habit of fiddling with the temperature, but I do notch it up or down a degree or two occasionally.

Would you pull over to adjust cabin temperature, or turn on/off windscreen demisting, things like that? I don't think many would, and fiddling with a touch screen can't be conducive to safe driving.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TiJazz on January 15, 2021, 03:55:02 PM
Believe me, the demisting ability of a Tesla is so poor it’s better to just wait until the sun comes out before driving :p
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on January 15, 2021, 04:02:55 PM
Never had the pleasure (or otherwise) of driving a Tesla, but my first experience of fumbling about looking for heater controls on a touch screen was not a happy one - Peugeot.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TiJazz on January 15, 2021, 04:17:18 PM
Don’t waste your time or money until they learn how to build a car and test their software (see my earlier posts!)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 15, 2021, 04:32:18 PM
I see the furore about the roof rails on the MG5 has been sorted out. Initially, the brochure said they were rated at 50 kg then the brochure was changed, and they were for "decoration" only. This caused a bit of an uproar for those that bought the car to carry bikes and the like, but now they have been reinstated as load currying, albeit at a reduced 35 kg.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on January 19, 2021, 04:30:30 PM
100 miles worth of charge in 5 minutes by 2025 with existing charge infrastructure.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jan/19/electric-car-batteries-race-ahead-with-five-minute-charging-times
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on January 19, 2021, 06:09:48 PM
100 miles worth of charge in 5 minutes by 2025 with existing charge infrastructure.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jan/19/electric-car-batteries-race-ahead-with-five-minute-charging-times

 WIth a 50KWH battery, a 5 minute charge at 240V would be a current draw of 2,500 Amps.  Enough to melt all existing copper charging cables...
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on January 19, 2021, 06:44:21 PM
WIth a 50KWH battery, a 5 minute charge at 240V would be a current draw of 2,500 Amps.  Enough to melt all existing copper charging cables...

I think they are only talking about a partial charge, and superchargers are already operating at 480V... but that's still going to have to be bumped up to make this work.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 19, 2021, 07:05:06 PM
I think they are only talking about a partial charge, and superchargers are already operating at 480V... but that's still going to have to be bumped up to make this work.
The batteries can be fully charged in five minutes but this would require much higher-powered chargers than used today. Using available charging infrastructure, StoreDot is aiming to deliver 100 miles of charge to a car battery in five minutes in 2025.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on January 19, 2021, 07:39:50 PM
I think they are only talking about a partial charge, and superchargers are already operating at 480V... but that's still going to have to be bumped up to make this work.
The batteries can be fully charged in five minutes but this would require much higher-powered chargers than used today. Using available charging infrastructure, StoreDot is aiming to deliver 100 miles of charge to a car battery in five minutes in 2025.

What i meant to say, to make the 5 minute full charge work. Certainly technically possible, and of course charging systems don't have to involve cables.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on January 19, 2021, 08:03:56 PM
I think they are only talking about a partial charge, and superchargers are already operating at 480V... but that's still going to have to be bumped up to make this work.
The batteries can be fully charged in five minutes but this would require much higher-powered chargers than used today. Using available charging infrastructure, StoreDot is aiming to deliver 100 miles of charge to a car battery in five minutes in 2025.

What i meant to say, to make the 5 minute full charge work. Certainly technically possible, and of course charging systems don't have to involve cables.

Inductive charging is inefficient with up to 45% extra power being drawn to supply same amount of power as a cable. The two inductive coils need to be as close as possible, and still need to carry same or more current than a cable.  Inductive charging is basically an air cooled transformer - iron cored transformers are very efficient, but not air cored.  Higher frequency helps to improve efficiency of air cored transformer but that means BEV and chargers become even more expensive..
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on January 19, 2021, 08:23:31 PM
Inductive charging is inefficient

Who said anything about inductive charging?  ;)


https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/53025466.pdf

Eventually, I can see some sort of standardised robotic charging connection which connects underneath the car, directly to the battery pack. The danger of human contact with high voltage charging is reduced, the charging cabling in the car is eliminated, and the size of the conductors on the charging infrastructure can be significantly increased.

I've no doubt someone will come up with a solution, necessity is the mother of invention.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on January 19, 2021, 08:43:13 PM
Really helps if you read the article before making assumptions. The company making this battery tech are talking to BP about how to make their tens of thousands of filling stations obsolete.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on January 19, 2021, 08:54:24 PM
As it says, "batteries are the new oil".
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on January 20, 2021, 08:54:40 AM
Many companies are fond of releasing 'breakthroughs' to tempt people to invest in the company,  it works for a while - until it all goes quiet.  They have also used graphene in batteries to allow them to be charged faster.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on January 20, 2021, 12:13:44 PM
Inductive charging is inefficient

Who said anything about inductive charging?  ;)


https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/53025466.pdf

Eventually, I can see some sort of standardised robotic charging connection which connects underneath the car, directly to the battery pack. The danger of human contact with high voltage charging is reduced, the charging cabling in the car is eliminated, and the size of the conductors on the charging infrastructure can be significantly increased.

I've no doubt someone will come up with a solution, necessity is the mother of invention.

My god, a robot needed to charge a vehicle, it is bad enough trying to fine a 'normal' dumb charging station in working order, let alone a more complex and easily vandalised robot one. The expense of fitting a robot et al to charging stations makes the already eyewatering cost of fast charge stations even worse, much more for the scrotes to nick or vandalise as well.  the we still have the outstanding matter of where the electrical power is gonna come from...   Auto drive cars driving themselves to the robot ( running over people pushing bicycles on the way ), not much progress on that just lately according to the deafening silence that has descended on the subject and the diminishing number of people trying to get rid of a human driver.  With the cost of all this tech, stand by to pay well for the privilege of having your car 'valet' charged.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on January 20, 2021, 12:46:02 PM
Inductive charging is inefficient

Who said anything about inductive charging?  ;)


https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/53025466.pdf

Eventually, I can see some sort of standardised robotic charging connection which connects underneath the car, directly to the battery pack. The danger of human contact with high voltage charging is reduced, the charging cabling in the car is eliminated, and the size of the conductors on the charging infrastructure can be significantly increased.

I've no doubt someone will come up with a solution, necessity is the mother of invention.

My god, a robot needed to charge a vehicle, it is bad enough trying to fine a 'normal' dumb charging station in working order, let alone a more complex and easily vandalised robot one. The expense of fitting a robot et al to charging stations makes the already eyewatering cost of fast charge stations even worse, much more for the scrotes to nick or vandalise as well.  the we still have the outstanding matter of where the electrical power is gonna come from...   Auto drive cars driving themselves to the robot ( running over people pushing bicycles on the way ), not much progress on that just lately according to the deafening silence that has descended on the subject and the diminishing number of people trying to get rid of a human driver.  With the cost of all this tech, stand by to pay well for the privilege of having your car 'valet' charged.

What's your solution @Culzean? I see a lot of challenge from you on all the progress discussed here, but I am not clear what your alternative is for the future of personal mobility and travel.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on January 20, 2021, 01:34:32 PM
My god, a robot needed to charge a vehicle, it is bad enough trying to fine a 'normal' dumb charging station in working order, let alone a more complex and easily vandalised robot one.

Of course, I'm not saying that this is the system I'm going to patent and send to BP as the answer, it's just a fag packet example off the top of my head. Far smarter people than me are working on these ideas. However, as you seem very intent on ripping it to pieces, I'll try to address some of your criticisms.

How exactly is someone going to vandalise a charging connection that is enclosed within a steel cover in the floor? Not even the car drivers will ever see it. Surely more difficult to vandalise than a charging cable, or even a pump hose?

When I say robot, I'm certain that you know, with your immense experience of industry, that I don't mean every charger will be equipped with it's own R2-D2. A simple pantograph type device that rises out of the floor, adjusts for the exact position before clamping onto the vehicle's charging port/s, is simple and will not be difficult or expensive to put into practice.

The electricity supply and sourcing is certainly is an issue today, but supply, and local storage and/or generation required will eventually have to be addressed - this is ongoing, and mass charging sites are already becoming operational. Nobody should lose sight of the massive amount of infrastructure that petrol and diesel needs to extract, refine, distribute and store before it can be dispensed into your tank. It doesn't simply sprout out of the ground in the middle of Tesco's car park.

As for cars driving themselves to charging stations and squashing cyclists, I honestly don't know where you got that from.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 20, 2021, 01:35:12 PM
What's your solution @Culzean? I see a lot of challenge from you on all the progress discussed here, but I am not clear what your alternative is for the future of personal mobility and travel.
culzean's solution is petrol and diesel.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on January 20, 2021, 01:57:59 PM
What's your solution @Culzean? I see a lot of challenge from you on all the progress discussed here, but I am not clear what your alternative is for the future of personal mobility and travel.
culzean's solution is petrol and diesel.
Well he's going to need a very persuasive argument to overthrow all of the major political party's strategies.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on January 20, 2021, 02:24:13 PM
culzean's solution is petrol and diesel.
Don't forget the hydrogen option. I see considerable potential to develop the fuel cell technology in conjunction with a hybrid drivechain so the fuel cell can run continuously at modest output with a battery big enough to meet high power demands plus store energy from regenrative braking. The hydrogen can be generated when there's surplus renewable energy and stored.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest4871 on January 20, 2021, 02:47:06 PM
culzean's solution is petrol and diesel.
Don't forget the hydrogen option. I see considerable potential to develop the fuel cell technology in conjunction with a hybrid drivechain so the fuel cell can run continuously at modest output with a battery big enough to meet high power demands plus store energy from regenrative braking. The hydrogen can be generated when there's surplus renewable energy and stored.

Agreed.

I thought the COVID lockdowns are trial runs for an alternative future for personal mobility and travel.  ;)

In normal times, with 95% of personal transport sitting idle and with all that capital being tied up and going nowhere,  I suspect the future is more in the widening distribution of organisations like Zipcar, certainly in urban and suburban environments.

No doubt Rolls Royce will, in due course, be able to reduce the size of their mini nuclear power stations to fit in the boot/ battery compartment of most vehicles.

And, anyway until someone does something about world population growth, all this is pie in the sky!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 20, 2021, 03:28:08 PM
And, anyway until someone does something about world population growth, all this is pie in the sky!
I'll do my bit shortly. I'll pop my clogs.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on January 20, 2021, 04:38:30 PM
In normal times, with 95% of personal transport sitting idle and with all that capital being tied up and going nowhere,  I suspect the future is more in the widening distribution of organisations like Zipcar, certainly in urban and suburban environments.

There's both a question and an answer in there somewhere. People who spend £50,000 plus buying, or £800 a month and upwards leasing a car, aren't doing that just to get to work. Something like you suggest probably is the future, but at present, cars are still a symbol of status parked on the drive.

until someone does something about world population growth, all this is pie in the sky!

...or the oil runs out  ;)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Westy36 on January 20, 2021, 05:31:22 PM
at present, cars are still a symbol of status parked on the drive.
Now people can go status symbolling and virtue signalling all in one with green number plates! Eco snobbery?  :D

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/green-number-plates-get-the-green-light-for-a-zero-emission-future (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/green-number-plates-get-the-green-light-for-a-zero-emission-future)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TiJazz on January 20, 2021, 08:23:14 PM
£800 a month? Even the Model 3 only cost me £600 all-in, what are these people driving?  ;D
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on January 20, 2021, 10:19:36 PM
£800 a month? Even the Model 3 only cost me £600 all-in, what are these people driving?  ;D

A neighbour was paying £800 a month for an Audi TT. They also got stung heavily for excess mileage too when it was handed back.

I'm sure there are dearer cars out there.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TiJazz on January 20, 2021, 10:46:38 PM
If I was paying £800 I’d want an R8 not a TT! &#129315;
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Westy36 on January 21, 2021, 06:19:36 AM

A neighbour was paying £800 a month for an Audi TT. They also got stung heavily for excess mileage too when it was handed back.

I'm sure there are dearer cars out there.

£10k a year to borrow an Audi? It uses the MQB chassis, so in essence is a posh fast 2dr Golf. Very nice, but how much??  ???

Vauxhall have just announced the Combo e. 171 mile range apparently.
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/new-2021-vauxhall-combo-e-arrives-171-mile-range (https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/new-2021-vauxhall-combo-e-arrives-171-mile-range)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on January 21, 2021, 08:39:33 AM
Vauxhall have just announced the Combo e. 171 mile range apparently.
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/new-2021-vauxhall-combo-e-arrives-171-mile-range (https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/new-2021-vauxhall-combo-e-arrives-171-mile-range)
That's a sector which is long overdue for electrification as the majority of vans don't travel the daily distances where the battery range becomes a worry and EVs are ideal for a series of short journeys.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on January 21, 2021, 09:11:47 AM
If I was paying £800 I’d want an R8 not a TT! &#38;#129315;

It was a fairly high spec, as far as I can remember.

A quick flick over the finance examples on the Audi website, a TT RS Vorsprung is £6,665 down, 4 years at £910.02 a month, and £28,306 final payment. Cheapest TT RS is £734 a month and £26K final payment.

10,000 miles p.a., 11p per mile excess charge

Gulp! :o
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Westy36 on January 21, 2021, 01:06:46 PM
A quick flick over the finance examples on the Audi website, a TT RS Vorsprung is £6,665 down, 4 years at £910.02 a month, and £28,306 final payment. Cheapest TT RS is £734 a month and £26K final payment.

10,000 miles p.a., 11p per mile excess charge

Gulp! :o
Gulp indeed. :D Ok, so it's a fast as you like cool car, but that works out at £50,345 to borrow a car for four years! FOUR years £50K? I can get four decades+ motoring out of that budget. 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on January 22, 2021, 02:04:16 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jan/22/electric-vehicles-close-to-tipping-point-of-mass-adoption
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TiJazz on January 22, 2021, 03:53:22 PM
Cost / range / charging issues are still a barrier. These will reduce over time. To accelerate that round require heavy incentives in terms of cost and infrastructure, like Norway.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on January 22, 2021, 04:17:51 PM
Vauxhall are running an interesting scheme, a twist on the charging problem.

Buy a new Corsa-e on PCP, and they are including a free fitted home charger, and including 30,000 miles worth of electricity, equivalent to around £3K worth of petrol. They are also throwing in a 6 month subscription to the Polar charging network.

https://uk.motor1.com/news/459833/vauxhall-corsa-free-charger-electricity/
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TiJazz on January 22, 2021, 05:23:54 PM
It’s a start, but doesn’t change the fact that:
- it’s a £30,000 Corsa(!!)
- lots of folk live in flats / terraces
- Public chargers are often out of service, and rapids are still few and far between
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Westy36 on January 22, 2021, 06:15:09 PM
It’s a start, but doesn’t change the fact that:
- it’s a £30,000 Corsa(!!)
- lots of folk live in flats / terraces
- Public chargers are often out of service, and rapids are still few and far between
Your points regarding at least, what, 60% (guess) don't have their own driveway are very valid. It only works for those of us that have a drive or communal parking with dedicated charging. Charging facilities at work can increase options, mind you, working from home is the covid way these days.

£30k for a Corsa is a fair point, but if you are one of the many 'pay monthly never own' car users, then £330 a month is not that bad. £330 a month, you get a new car, green reg number to tell the whole world your eco EV man/woman and lower running costs.

https://www.vauxhall.co.uk/cars/new-corsa/offers-finance/electric/personal-contract-hire.html (https://www.vauxhall.co.uk/cars/new-corsa/offers-finance/electric/personal-contract-hire.html)

I have never bought my cars on finance, or anything else for that matter, but then again I'm old school. Monthly is how people do things. Monthly rent, monthly i Phone, monthly TV package etc etc. So, £330 a month is about average for a car I suppose.

Lets hope Vauxhall sell loads of Corsa e and Combo e, and the PSA/FCA/Stellantis group keep the brand and jobs in the uk.  :)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on January 22, 2021, 08:40:46 PM
It’s a start, but doesn’t change the fact that:
- it’s a £30,000 Corsa(!!)
- lots of folk live in flats / terraces
- Public chargers are often out of service, and rapids are still few and far between

List price is pretty much irrelevant, I think this deal is only open to those using the PCP scheme - glorified rental. Not for me either, but the majority use these schemes to buy their new cars in the UK.

Obviously, a home charger is not going to suit everybody, but around 60% of UK homes have some sort of off road parking. I presume that the manufacturers would consider that the demographic they are aiming at would be less likely to live in a terraced house.

Not sure about public chargers being "often out of service", my nearest Shell charging forecourt always seems to be fully operational, and the cheaper chargers in the local town car park also seem to be working when I walk past, and usually available.


As I said, it's just an interesting twist, not something that would suck me in.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 22, 2021, 08:58:44 PM
I talked to some EV owners living around Edinburgh, and they reckon the public charging network around here is excellent. Two of them were only able to charge at public chargers, and neither found it an issue. The Scottish government is very much in favour of green policies, perhaps because they have Green support in Holyrood.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on January 22, 2021, 09:21:43 PM
I've been quite surprised by the appearance of charging sites around here, in what is a pretty rural area really.

The Shell site serves a main trunk road, but is really my nearest proper forecourt service station. A couple of years ago, they expanded the site, building several food and coffee outlets and parking on the new bit. When the three car charging bays were installed, it all made sense.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on January 23, 2021, 09:53:06 AM
Obviously, a home charger is not going to suit everybody, but around 60% of UK homes have some sort of off road parking. I presume that the manufacturers would consider that the demographic they are aiming at would be less likely to live in a terraced house.

That’s a bit patronising. Not all terraced houses are impoverished slums ...
https://www.primelocation.com/for-sale/details/55586361?search_identifier=be177e9c91a28ad6e0f24714347ec686
In that particular example, there is no off-street parking, public chargers on the pavements are problematic because of the heritage issues and the vaults underneath are privately-owned, nor are there enough street lights to cater for any significant demand. That’s probably an extreme example, but it can’t be unique in the many areas of towns and cities with heritage architecture and perfectly respectable housing stock.

Whenever I read “real world” accounts of people trying to rely on public chargers, they seem to be laced with comments about them being unavailable or not working properly resulting in significant angst in trying to make even modest journeys. Unless serious money goes into both expanding the network and - critically - making the charge points more resilient, the only people who can realistically use EVs are those with off-street parking and home charging. Which condemns a very  large number of people to having to give up their personal transport in the next ten years or so. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, but doesn’t make it less annoying.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on January 23, 2021, 10:08:56 AM
Obviously, a home charger is not going to suit everybody, but around 60% of UK homes have some sort of off road parking. I presume that the manufacturers would consider that the demographic they are aiming at would be less likely to live in a terraced house.

That’s a bit patronising. Not all terraced houses are impoverished slums ...

Why is it patronising? I think you've grabbed the wrong end of the stick there.

'Demographic' doesn't specifically relate to income, it can be any characteristic of society - and here, I'm talking about drivers and non-drivers. Is someone who buys a terraced house or flat with no parking more or less likely to be a car owner?

Quote
The majority (it’s roughly 60:40) of UK dwellings have off street parking. But it gets better. Those who don’t drive cars are over-represented in the dwellings with no car parking. PWC recently estimated that a stunning 84% of UK drivers have access to off-street parking at home.

https://pod-point.com/electric-car-news/electric-car-no-driveway
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on January 23, 2021, 11:30:50 AM
We will need to get to a situation where public charging is accessible to all. As Jocko says Scotland is moving along those lines ahead of the rest of the UK. On top of that something needs to be done about charge point deserts which make some journeys highly inconvenient if not actually impossible by EV.

We are not there yet so I don't see a "tipping point" occurring imminently but I reckon by 2025 things will look very different. People may not want to be stuck with ICE vehicles as the 2030 ban on new sales comes in, manufacturers may stop making ICE vehicles ahead of the deadline anyway. I think it highly unlikely that you will be able to buy a brand new ICE car in December 2029.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on January 23, 2021, 11:36:58 AM
Obviously, a home charger is not going to suit everybody, but around 60% of UK homes have some sort of off road parking. I presume that the manufacturers would consider that the demographic they are aiming at would be less likely to live in a terraced house.

That’s a bit patronising. Not all terraced houses are impoverished slums ...

Why is it patronising?

Because I read an implication in your comment that people who live in terraced houses (and flats, and other types of older high-density accommodation) were considered second-rate when it comes to EV ownership. If that wasn't intended, then I did indeed get the wrong end of the stick. Fact remains that just about all the terraced housing stock round here (and there's a lot of it in Bath, not just the kind of properties in my tongue-in-cheek link) is rammed nose to tail with parked cars (and they are all residents because of residents-only restrictions), so there are an awful lot of car-owners who live in terraced houses for whom EV ownership will be hugely problematic.

As for the podpoint article, that's interesting but has all kinds of holes in it. Just to take a few:
- The PWC article cited as the source of their stats is not available so can't be checked.
- Workplace charging: this is being actively reduced in a drive to reduce car use, such that new developments are being built with no, or very reduced, parking.
- On street charging: poses all kinds of issues in actually installing the charge points in older streets, some of which I hinted at previously. But there's a social issue with shared charging facilities: if your car finishes charging when you're doing something else (or at 3.00 am), would you go and move it? The current selfish "me first" attitude throughout society suggests many people wouldn't even if it causes hardship for someone else.
- The article misses the reliability issue. Too many 1st person accounts describe malfunctioning chargers when they arrive, so network owners like podpoint and their peers need to put very much more resource into maintaining the infrastructure so that users have a better chance of finding a charge point that's actually working when they need it.
- Security. I'm supposed to leave my expensive EV in a public car park that may be a long way from home whilst it charges? Obviously anyone proposing that has (a) never actually been in one of those car parks overnight (they're very unsafe-feeling places!) and (b) has never suffered the outrage of having a car stolen (you tend to want to keep an eye on it!).
That'll do. I still feel that there are no viable plans to encourage car-owners without off-street parking to make the switch to EVs, even f they might want to (as I do).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TiJazz on January 23, 2021, 01:10:54 PM
Absolutely - although one thing I will say is that nobody is stupid enough to steal a plugged-in EV. Nobody wants to saw through a live 400V cable!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on January 23, 2021, 01:47:22 PM
Because I read an implication in your comment that people who live in terraced houses (and flats, and other types of older high-density accommodation) were considered second-rate when it comes to EV ownership.

Nothing implied at all, you chose to read 'demographic' as meaning poor people.


As for the podpoint article, that's interesting but has all kinds of holes in it.

Obviously, podpoint just want to flog their charging installations. However, I would think it fairly logical to assume that those people who choose to live in a home without parking facilities would be less likely to be drivers.

I think the data comes from here originally, but the link was the best thing I could find that was reasonably digestible.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/6748/2173483.pdf
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 23, 2021, 01:48:43 PM
As most new cars are stolen by stealing the keys or careless left cards for keyless entry by signal relaying the chances of either happening are slim if you live 200 yards from where your car is parked. There is nothing to stop your car being vandalised, but that can happen in your drive. If someone tries to cut the cable, then the damage would be to the charger, not your own cable.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on January 23, 2021, 02:21:45 PM
[However, I would think it fairly logical to assume that those people who choose to live in a home without parking facilities would be less likely to be drivers.

Well, that’s an interesting viewpoint. I chose to live where I do because it is convenient for work, schools, shopping, and social life. And I’m pretty sure that applies to most of the people who live around me. Very few chose to live here because they don’t own a car. But that doesn’t mean I don’t want the convenience of a car, and it’s infuriating that current planning seems hell-bent on taking that convenience away by making EV ownership very difficult. Maybe that’s the aim.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on January 23, 2021, 03:32:41 PM
I chose to live where I do because it is convenient for work, schools, shopping, and social life. And I’m pretty sure that applies to most of the people who live around me.

I choose to live where i do to get away from all those things ;D


Very few chose to live here because they don’t own a car.

That is subtly different to what I'm saying, which is that you would be more likely to consider living somewhere with no parking if you didn't own a car. If you did own a car, then surely living in a home without any parking is going to be less attractive, thus naturally skewing the demographic towards non-drivers. Does that make sense?

The study I linked to bears this out. If you look at the housing survey document, fig. 2.10 on page 39 shows that households owning no cars are twice as likely to have no access to adequate parking.

Quote
Parking was not necessarily an issue for all households because 23% did not have a car. In general, the more cars a household had, the more likely they were to have a garage or other off street parking. About 6% of households had 3 or more cars and 91% of these had a garage or off street parking provision. Around 14% of households with one car and 7% with two cars had no or inadequate street parking

I think everyone must know people who live in town or city and don't even own a car - public transport services their daily needs, and they could hire a car if they need one. However, public transport should be cheap, reliable and comfortable for it to be an effective alternative, and I believe we lost our way many years ago.


...that doesn’t mean I don’t want the convenience of a car, and it’s infuriating that current planning seems hell-bent on taking that convenience away by making EV ownership very difficult. Maybe that’s the aim.

I agree, and I can understand your frustration, but the biggest barriers to home charging are primarily practical considerations. I guess that once fast commercial charging infrastructure is better established, it will become less of a headache, but it will increase the running costs for those who cannot charge at home. The ability to refuel your car while it sits on your drive is a relatively new concept, and unfortunately there's currently no convenient answer for those without those facilities.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on January 25, 2021, 06:09:56 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/EHI9cvY.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TiJazz on January 25, 2021, 01:56:17 PM
A slightly ironic image considering us mk4 owners drive cars that do exactly what is pictured above  :D
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on January 25, 2021, 04:10:28 PM
A slightly ironic image considering us mk4 owners drive cars that do exactly what is pictured above  :D
Except the Mk 4 Jazz doesn't carry a sticker claiming it doesn't use gasoline. ;D
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Westy36 on January 26, 2021, 01:17:40 PM
Another new entry to the van market.  "Peugeot expands electric van range with new e-Partner"

https://www.commercialfleet.org/news/van-news/2021/01/26/peugeot-expands-electric-van-range-with-new-e-partner (https://www.commercialfleet.org/news/van-news/2021/01/26/peugeot-expands-electric-van-range-with-new-e-partner)

Interesting trim level names, "Professional and Asphalt". They clearly have Motorway Maintenance contractors in mind !!  :D :D
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 26, 2021, 08:02:48 PM
Ford has also announced an all electric van for 2022.

https://www.ford.co.uk/future-vehicles/new-e-transit# (https://www.ford.co.uk/future-vehicles/new-e-transit#)

And Amazon's latest TV advert shows their new Mercedes EV vans.

https://cleantechnica.com/2020/08/28/amazon-orders-1800-mercedes-electric-delivery-vans-for-eu-and-uk/ (https://cleantechnica.com/2020/08/28/amazon-orders-1800-mercedes-electric-delivery-vans-for-eu-and-uk/)
https://www.mercedes-benz.co.uk/vans/en/e-sprinter-panel-van (https://www.mercedes-benz.co.uk/vans/en/e-sprinter-panel-van)

(https://cleantechnica.com/files/2020/08/E-Sprinter-via-YouTube-570x279.png)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on February 04, 2021, 03:53:54 PM
i undai ?    i Kia ?

Apple is reportedly nearing a deal to build its autonomous electric car with Hyundai.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/apple-is-reportedly-nearing-a-deal-to-build-its-autonomous-electric-car-with-hyundai/ar-BB1dmTdc

https://9to5mac.com/2021/02/03/cnbc-apple-and-hyundai-nearing-apple-car-deal-first-version-will-not-be-designed-to-have-a-driver/

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on February 04, 2021, 03:58:22 PM
Apple is reportedly nearing a deal to build its autonomous electric car with Hyundai.
Given Apple's recent design strategy to reduce to zero the number of connections on iPhones and iPads, and to reduce the upgradeability to zero, I really hope they don't intend their car strategy to be the same!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on February 04, 2021, 05:16:55 PM
Apple is reportedly nearing a deal to build its autonomous electric car with Hyundai.
Given Apple's recent design strategy to reduce to zero the number of connections on iPhones and iPads, and to reduce the upgradeability to zero, I really hope they don't intend their car strategy to be the same!

Apple cars will be incapable of being upgrades when they are seven years old (and therefore unsafe)  and will be hackable by a 15 year old student.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on February 04, 2021, 05:22:38 PM
Apple is reportedly nearing a deal to build its autonomous electric car with Hyundai.
Given Apple's recent design strategy to reduce to zero the number of connections on iPhones and iPads, and to reduce the upgradeability to zero, I really hope they don't intend their car strategy to be the same!

Apple cars will be incapable of being upgrades when they are seven years old (and therefore unsafe)  and will be hackable by a 15 year old student.

I'm laughing but I'm typing this on a MacBook Pro next to my iPad Pro and my iPhone X. Yes, I am a mug.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Westy36 on February 04, 2021, 05:48:34 PM
Apple cars will also come with unique bolts and fixings in an attempt to stop repairs. Sell like hot cakes though like everything else thay make.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on February 12, 2021, 09:29:18 AM
Ford has also announced an all electric van for 2022.

https://www.ford.co.uk/future-vehicles/new-e-transit# (https://www.ford.co.uk/future-vehicles/new-e-transit#)

And Amazon's latest TV advert shows their new Mercedes EV vans.

https://cleantechnica.com/2020/08/28/amazon-orders-1800-mercedes-electric-delivery-vans-for-eu-and-uk/ (https://cleantechnica.com/2020/08/28/amazon-orders-1800-mercedes-electric-delivery-vans-for-eu-and-uk/)
https://www.mercedes-benz.co.uk/vans/en/e-sprinter-panel-van (https://www.mercedes-benz.co.uk/vans/en/e-sprinter-panel-van)

(https://cleantechnica.com/files/2020/08/E-Sprinter-via-YouTube-570x279.png)

They must be using these vans for (non ) delivery of parcels in our area, parcel not delivered on Tuesday, not delivered on Wednesday,  not delivered Thursday, promised today LOL......If not delivered today I get a refund.   Parcels that come by Royal mail and parcel force arriving fine, early if anything..
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 12, 2021, 09:48:27 AM
Post office not delivering here because of the weather but Amazon is. So too are Hermes. We got a parcel left at our door at the back of ten last night.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on February 12, 2021, 10:04:33 AM
Post office not delivering here because of the weather but Amazon is. So too are Hermes. We got a parcel left at our door at the back of ten last night.

weather here is pretty cold but clear and hardly any snow, if you added up the total weeks snow it would be less than 1 inch.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 12, 2021, 10:08:42 AM
We have had about 8" of snow this week in two dollops. Main roads are finally clear today, but side streets are still hard-packed and icy—currently 3 below, but the milder weather is forecast for next week.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on February 15, 2021, 03:58:43 PM
I see Jaguar will become an electric-only brand from 2025 onwards. By the end of the decade, JLR aims for 100% of Jaguar sales and 60% of Land Rover sales to be fully electric.
Land Rover will continue to offer a range of powertrains, but with a heavy focus on electrification. That will include six pure electric variants in the next five years as part of the existing Range Rover, Discovery and Defender families. The brand's first EV will arrive in 2024.
Launching an electric version of every Land Rover model by 2030 will put the firm in a strong position to meet the UK’s 2030 ban on all but a limited number of non-zero-emissions vehicles. But continuing to offer combustion-engined versions for the foreseeable future will ensure that the brand can continue to offer cars in markets where its products are popular, but EV infrastructure is less developed.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry-news/jaguar-become-all-electric-brand-2025 (https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry-news/jaguar-become-all-electric-brand-2025)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on February 15, 2021, 05:19:52 PM
I see Jaguar will become an electric-only brand from 2025 onwards. By the end of the decade, JLR aims for 100% of Jaguar sales and 60% of Land Rover sales to be fully electric.
Land Rover will continue to offer a range of powertrains, but with a heavy focus on electrification. That will include six pure electric variants in the next five years as part of the existing Range Rover, Discovery and Defender families. The brand's first EV will arrive in 2024.
Launching an electric version of every Land Rover model by 2030 will put the firm in a strong position to meet the UK’s 2030 ban on all but a limited number of non-zero-emissions vehicles. But continuing to offer combustion-engined versions for the foreseeable future will ensure that the brand can continue to offer cars in markets where its products are popular, but EV infrastructure is less developed.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry-news/jaguar-become-all-electric-brand-2025 (https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry-news/jaguar-become-all-electric-brand-2025)

My Brother -in-law working for JLR on design of electric vehicles.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Westy36 on February 15, 2021, 06:24:59 PM
Given how many JLR products are Chelsea tractors and are owned by urban dwellers in areas such as Chelsea, I imagine they will sell very well.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 02, 2021, 06:55:07 AM
Volvo has announced that worldwide, from 2030, they will only manufacture All-Electric cars. They will no longer manufacture ICE cars, even as hybrids.
They also stated:
Volvo will not be investing in cars with hydrogen fuel cells, as it does not think there will be enough demand from customers. There is also a question mark over hydrogen's availability in comparison with charging points for electric cars, a spokesman said.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on March 02, 2021, 08:17:58 AM
Charging point availability and the time required is going to be a massive problem.

They have less than a decade to solve it
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Westy36 on March 02, 2021, 12:36:41 PM
Van news "British Gas orders 2,000 Vauxhall Vivaro-e vans". Got to be good news for UK PLC and inner city air quality. :D

https://greenfleet.net/news/22022021/british-gas-orders-2000-vauxhall-vivaro-e-vans

"Centrica, owner of British Gas, has committed electrify its 12,000 strong operational fleet by 2025, five years earlier than originally planned and will be making further orders with Vauxhall for electric vehicles as soon as they are available. Centrica has also committed to make its 1,500 company cars EV only in the same time frame."

(https://greenfleet.net/sites/default/files/styles/large_retina/public/Screenshot%202021-02-22%20at%2009.23.14.png?itok=bwLh3PHE)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on March 10, 2021, 12:16:26 PM
The announcements by JLR and, now, Ford indicate to me that, like it or not, in terms of brand new cars it will be impossible to buy a conventional ICE car long before the 2030 deadline. The best you will be able to do is buy a PHEV.

The car makers know the writing is on the wall. It's all over for petrol and diesel.

What, I wonder, will this do for residuals of ICE cars? Will they crash and be virtually unsellable or will they rise as people seek to delay going electric for as long as possible?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TiJazz on March 10, 2021, 12:42:21 PM
Unless the infrastructure dramatically changes - through a massive government effort - it won’t happen. The 2030 deadline will be quietly revised to have MHEV as the minimum bar. Can you see Dacia putting a plug socket and 30kWh battery on the Sandero for £7k?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on March 11, 2021, 08:43:50 AM
Hydrogen comes to recue of electricity production?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/03/11/hydrogen-revolution-real-will-change-world/

"This is what is happening today. If you want a futuristic leap, try the new hydrogen paste unveiled by Germany’s Fraunhofer Institute. They have found a way to make the gas safe, portable, and energy-dense. “It stores hydrogen in a chemical form at room temperature and atmospheric pressure,” said project leader Marcus Vogt.

You insert a cartridge of paste into your car. A plunger squirts out a dose and that mixes with water to produce hydrogen for the fuel cell, and runs the vehicle. A single fill potentially has longer mileage than a full tank of petrol."

"“The way we see the future, in 20 to 40 years from now, all the energy that mankind uses will come from wind, solar, and hydro. Forty per cent of this will be used directly to power electric vehicles, heating, light, air conditioning, and cooking. The rest will be used to break down water and produce hydrogen. That will be the source of energy to drive trucks, ships, trains, and industries like steel,” he said.

That sums it up in a nutshell. You move through the gears, first displacing natural gas as a dispatchable back-up for renewables, then reaching cement, fertilizers, chemicals, or heating for buildings. The scissor-action of falling hydrogen prices and rising carbon prices brings one sector after another into range."


Well worth reading.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on March 12, 2021, 08:57:52 AM
Dacia Spring, the europeanised version of the Chinese Renault City K-ZE now on sale in France.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/new-dacia-spring-affordable-ev-launches-france-%E2%82%AC12403
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 12, 2021, 09:29:08 AM
I hope that comes here soon. Limited range but great price. And Dacia has a good reputation here.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kenneve on March 12, 2021, 09:50:26 AM

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/new-dacia-spring-affordable-ev-launches-france-%E2%82%AC12403

No. not for me, performance would be abysmal, compared with the Jazz, with less than half of the HP and Nm available.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on March 12, 2021, 10:00:34 AM
Looks ideal as a city/town runabout and the pricing makes sense (unlike the Honda E)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on March 12, 2021, 11:18:26 AM

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/new-dacia-spring-affordable-ev-launches-france-%E2%82%AC12403

No. not for me, performance would be abysmal, compared with the Jazz, with less than half of the HP and Nm available.

To be fair, it's not meant to be a competitor to the Jazz - it is what it is - a small shopping trolley with limited top speed and range. It's also half the price of a Jazz, and then there's the potentially considerable fuel and tax savings.

I can see a lot of people being able to work with that, especially as a second runabout car. Relatively small battery means easier to charge at home.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 12, 2021, 11:45:21 AM
Great for me. I won't be going EV until I move to Edinburgh's south edge, and once there, 90% of my driving will be in town. And the centre of Edinburgh is all 20 mph limit.
The main factor will be the price it will be here in the UK (assuming it comes here). It will have to be well short of the MG5, which I am currently looking at.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Westy36 on March 12, 2021, 05:01:37 PM
If that Dacia makes it over here, it will be a very common sight I expect. Fantastic value for money for an urban based EV.

PS: Did you see the the new Dacia Sandero won What Car? COTY 2021. Gets great reviews.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TiJazz on March 12, 2021, 05:17:33 PM
I’m guessing the Dacia has a Zoe 40 battery? It’ll still be upwards of £20k over here &#128580;
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on March 12, 2021, 05:53:46 PM
I’m guessing the Dacia has a Zoe 40 battery? It’ll still be upwards of £20k over here &#38;#128580;

26.8kWh battery.

I could make it here if it gets to other RHD markets. No reason why it should be much more expensive here than in EU countries, coming from a factory in China.

Price in France works out at around £14,500 - that drops to £10,500 with the government grant.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TiJazz on March 13, 2021, 12:42:49 PM
A missed opportunity to take the silly used Zoe 40 market down a peg or two then...

The MG eZS costs about £10k in its home market I believe... over here it’s nearer £30k.

In Norway, a Tesla Model 3 is basically free after incentives.

Over here the Dacia won’t be below £20k, with a pre incentive price of £25-26k
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on March 13, 2021, 01:16:02 PM
Over here the Dacia won’t be below £20k, with a pre incentive price of £25-26k

It will never compete at that price. The list price of a Zoe is only £28,795, and the Spring/K-ZE is a very basic (and tiny) car by comparison. You could have bought a MG ZS for £19,995 OTR with the grant just before Xmas, and delivery mileage one for less than that.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 13, 2021, 01:19:45 PM
MG5 is available for around £21K.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on March 13, 2021, 04:13:53 PM
A used (5k miles) Honda E is under £26k..
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Westy36 on March 13, 2021, 04:15:45 PM
The MG5 comes with a stonking warranty too, 7yrs/80k. 0-60 I've just read is under 8, so it'll be quick off the line. A lot of EV for the pound.  ;)

This one is for sale at <£20k brand new.

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/new/202101077734347?model=MG5&postcode=cb22aa&radius=200&onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly%20New&onesearchad=Used&sort=price-asc&include-delivery-option=on&make=MG&advertising-location=at_cars&page=1
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Westy36 on March 13, 2021, 04:21:23 PM
These look near identical to me. Any ideas what they are?

(https://m.atcdn.co.uk/a/media/w1024/a7b157c1638d40178c1ec93549a8d53b.jpg)

(https://m.atcdn.co.uk/a/media/w800h600/2392538ba23c4a70b39768c8d44f9ca8.jpg)

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Westy36 on March 13, 2021, 04:50:39 PM
EV chargers on motorways and major roads will receive major upgrade, including contactless payment.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/electric-cars/gridserve-and-ecotricity-partner-transform-charging-network

(https://www.autocar.co.uk/sites/autocar.co.uk/files/styles/gallery_slide/public/images/car-reviews/first-drives/legacy/gridserve_ecotricity_tieup.jpg?itok=6Q2HAOuj)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on March 13, 2021, 05:04:31 PM
EV chargers on motorways and major roads will receive major upgrade, including contactless payment.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/electric-cars/gridserve-and-ecotricity-partner-transform-charging-network


https://www.whatcar.com/news/electric-vehicle-charging-%E2%80%93-what-does-it-really-cost/n16833
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 13, 2021, 05:13:32 PM
These look near identical to me. Any ideas what they are?
That's the MG5. There is an upgrade to the wheels available which may be the second image.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Westy36 on March 13, 2021, 05:24:49 PM
]That's the MG5. There is an upgrade to the wheels available which may be the second image.

The second image is the Fiat Tipo. I'd really struggle to tell them apart.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 13, 2021, 05:59:54 PM
You are right. I should have spotted the fuel filler cap.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on March 13, 2021, 06:17:35 PM
The second image is the Fiat Tipo. I'd really struggle to tell them apart.

You could put a number of small estates side by side these days and you would be hard pressed to tell them apart.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TiJazz on March 13, 2021, 10:07:44 PM
The current MG5 lacks pretty much any active safety features and hasn’t been NCAP tested.

The MG eZS can be had at a discount, and is a far better choice.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on March 13, 2021, 10:14:30 PM
These look near identical to me. Any ideas what they are?
That's the MG5. There is an upgrade to the wheels available which may be the second image.

Second image is a different car. Look at the panel joins, the crease down the side and the fuel filler cap. Like a lot of cars these days, they are superficially very similar, boringly so. When you look closely you can see quite a few differences. Is it perhaps Kia c apostrophe d?

EDIT: Whoops. Turned the page and more comments. Fiat Tipo it is. Instantly forgettable.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 14, 2021, 11:53:16 AM
The current MG5 lacks pretty much any active safety features and hasn’t been NCAP tested.
Honda Crosstar has not been Euro NCAP tested either. The only model tested was the Honda Jazz, 1.5 Hybrid 'Elegance', LHD.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on March 14, 2021, 12:05:56 PM
Honda Crosstar has not been Euro NCAP tested either. The only model tested was the Honda Jazz, 1.5 Hybrid 'Elegance', LHD.
I think the Jazz test result is considered applicable to the Crosstar as it's essentially the same body with the same safety equipment. the Crosstar is slightly higher with a different shaped front end which could impact pedestrians differently but the theory is that the vehicle should automatically brake. The full test report is at https://cdn.euroncap.com/media/61420/euroncap-2020-honda-jazz-datasheet.pdf .
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TiJazz on March 14, 2021, 05:14:07 PM
Exactly - the Jazz has been tested. The Crosstar is a trim level. The MG5 as a type hasn’t been tested
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on March 15, 2021, 05:54:08 PM
So the latest is that some people are reporting thefts of their electric car charging cables for the metals they contain. Left plugged in outside they can go missing. I think the numbers are low but bound to increase.

Solve that one when a whole street is targeted after 2030.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 15, 2021, 06:01:04 PM
The value of the metal in a cable is not worth the effort. You have to clean strip it (burning gets you a pittance from the metal dealer). But there again, some plooks will steal anything. Once they see what they get for it, they probably won't bother again.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on March 15, 2021, 06:11:48 PM
The value of the metal in a cable is not worth the effort. You have to clean strip it (burning gets you a pittance from the metal dealer). But there again, some plooks will steal anything. Once they see what they get for it, they probably won't bother again.

At £200 a time and quicker than stealing a CAT - a quick snip with bolt cutters will deal with most padlocks.


https://www.businesstelegraph.co.uk/thieves-making-200-a-time-stealing-car-charging-cables-fleetpoint/
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 15, 2021, 07:04:11 PM
£200 is the price of a cable, not the value of scrap copper. For that price, you would have to have about 100 lb of clean copper. The current price of scrap copper is £4.8K to £5K PER TON.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on March 15, 2021, 09:32:17 PM
The cables have a value much higher than scrap value, they will be sold as they are, people may even buy their own cable back....
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on March 16, 2021, 04:14:05 AM
They need to get this published 5 minute charging up and running because converting lampposts is going to be an expensive task and will allow a team of scrotes to 'do' a number of streets in a very short time.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on March 16, 2021, 07:09:29 AM
There are a number of rapid recharge/refill technologies under development. Some involve ways of recharging batteries at incredible speeds. Some involve charged pastes or liquids, others are based on vastly improved hydrogen fuel cell technology. I’m confident that in ten years time we will look back at the current electric car fuelling tech in the same way we look at the World War 2 cars running off gas stored in a bag on the roof. That is, as a short term expedient.

The problem is that the 2030 deadline is based on political expediency and aimed at making our countries and our politicians look good on the world stage. It is driving the too rapid development of immature technologies at a pace which suits commercial interests rather than allowing a true scientific and engineering approach to a global industry transformation.

There is not enough time to develop sustainable elegant solutions so we get short termism in designs. What we are saving in driving headlong to electric will be wasted when we need to shift again to the better solutions and discard all the half way house vehicle and infrastructure designs.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on March 16, 2021, 08:29:15 AM
There are a number of rapid recharge/refill technologies under development. Some involve ways of recharging batteries at incredible speeds. Some involve charged pastes or liquids, others are based on vastly improved hydrogen fuel cell technology. I’m confident that in ten years time we will look back at the current electric car fuelling tech in the same way we look at the World War 2 cars running off gas stored in a bag on the roof. That is, as a short term expedient.

The problem is that the 2030 deadline is based on political expediency and aimed at making our countries and our politicians look good on the world stage. It is driving the too rapid development of immature technologies at a pace which suits commercial interests rather than allowing a true scientific and engineering approach to a global industry transformation.

There is not enough time to develop sustainable elegant solutions so we get short termism in designs. What we are saving in driving headlong to electric will be wasted when we need to shift again to the better solutions and discard all the half way house vehicle and infrastructure designs.

Agree, with the tech changing so quickly you can understand why majority of people do not want to spend eye-watering amounts of their hard earned money on toys that will be out of date before they have finished paying for them. Most will probably go the PCP route so that they don't end up with a worthless vehicle, but the payments will probably reflect the fact that the residuals on BEV are low.   When the government has to use legal force ( as opposed to lethal force ) to make people buy something,  then there is a strong smell of rat in the air.   We have cases of organisations like the Police buying electric vehicles ( box ticked ) that are no good for anything except ferrying flat cap coppers to meetings and lunch, NHS buying electric ambulances with too short a range to be usable - all done with public money.

Attached is a PDF of a complaint to BBC about their obvious overt bias to the Climate change movement ( obviously 'taking the knee' to climate change ),  points made by the BBC are roundly refuted in the letter, using believable sources like NASA and Royal Society.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on March 16, 2021, 09:10:37 AM
Agree, with the tech changing so quickly you can understand why majority of people do not want to spend eye-watering amounts of their hard earned money on toys that will be out of date before they have finished paying for them. Most will probably go the PCP route so that they don't end up with a worthless vehicle, but the payments will probably reflect the fact that the residuals on BEV are low.

I think that most private buyers of vehicles are buying with PCP now anyway, regardless of the fuel.

As for the BBC having bias, they have been acting as a government mouthpiece for some considerable time!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on March 16, 2021, 10:08:32 AM
There are a number of rapid recharge/refill technologies under development. Some involve ways of recharging batteries at incredible speeds. Some involve charged pastes or liquids, others are based on vastly improved hydrogen fuel cell technology. I’m confident that in ten years time we will look back at the current electric car fuelling tech in the same way we look at the World War 2 cars running off gas stored in a bag on the roof. That is, as a short term expedient.


The National Grid and charging systems will not cope with these high speed charging systems. I suspect they will be limited to new build out of town stations with new power cabling.

Hydrogen ? Think electric cars twenty years ago. That is where hydrogen is. Unlike EVs ALL fuelling requires new stations.  So £££££$$$$$$$sssssssss
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on March 16, 2021, 10:46:08 AM


Attached is a PDF of a complaint to BBC about their obvious overt bias to the Climate change movement ( obviously 'taking the knee' to climate change ),  points made by the BBC are roundly refuted in the letter, using believable sources like NASA and Royal Society.

Oh look it's Montford and Lawson again. 8)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Warming_Policy_Foundation
Personnel
In May 2014, the GWPF listed Benny Peiser, a social anthropologist, as the director, and a board of trustees consisting of Lord Lawson (Chairman), Lord Donoughue, Lord Fellowes, Peter R. Forster (the Bishop of Chester), Martin Jacomb, Baroness Nicholson, Sir James Spooner and Lord Turnbull.[23]

Andrew William Montford has been appointed to run an inquiry into the three British Climategate-inquiries for the Global Warming Policy Foundation.[24] His report The Climategate Inquiries was published in September 2010.[25]

In 2014 The Independent described the foundation as "the UK's most prominent source of climate-change denial".
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on March 16, 2021, 10:58:44 AM
Oh look it's Montford and Lawson again. 8)

I didn't even notice it was GWPF again. All my earlier criticism of this body still stands, but I also avoid the BBC as a serious news outlet these days - most of it is distraction.

BTW, how has this sneaked back onto the 'Electric cars' thread?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on March 16, 2021, 11:39:50 AM
Oh look it's Montford and Lawson again. 8)

I didn't even notice it was GWPF again. All my earlier criticism of this body still stands, but I also avoid the BBC as a serious news outlet these days - most of it is distraction.

BTW, how has this sneaked back onto the 'Electric cars' thread?

The problem with the BBC is they give equal credibility to the "think tanks" and  "lobby  groups" with dubious statistics, a fancy letter head, and some Lords of the Realm on board, as they do to the serious scientists with years of work behind them.

Agree. It's got nothing to do with electric cars.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on March 16, 2021, 11:44:17 AM
Oh look it's Montford and Lawson again. 8)

I didn't even notice it was GWPF again. All my earlier criticism of this body still stands, but I also avoid the BBC as a serious news outlet these days - most of it is distraction.

BTW, how has this sneaked back onto the 'Electric cars' thread?

The problem with the BBC is they give equal credibility to the "think tanks" and  "lobby  groups" with dubious statistics, a fancy letter head, and some Lords of the Realm on board, as they do to the serious scientists with years of work behind them.

Agree. It's got nothing to do with electric cars.

The whole reason given for electric vehicles is climate change, if climate change is not real then there is no need for electric vehicles. Does it still have nothing to do with electric cars ?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on March 16, 2021, 11:55:34 AM
There are a number of rapid recharge/refill technologies under development. Some involve ways of recharging batteries at incredible speeds. Some involve charged pastes or liquids, others are based on vastly improved hydrogen fuel cell technology. I’m confident that in ten years time we will look back at the current electric car fuelling tech in the same way we look at the World War 2 cars running off gas stored in a bag on the roof. That is, as a short term expedient.


The National Grid and charging systems will not cope with these high speed charging systems. I suspect they will be limited to new build out of town stations with new power cabling.

Hydrogen ? Think electric cars twenty years ago. That is where hydrogen is. Unlike EVs ALL fuelling requires new stations.  So £££££$$$$$$$sssssssss

I'm not sure you have understood what I was saying. It was meant as a complete piece of thinking so taking the first paragraph on it's own does not reveal my point.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on March 16, 2021, 12:02:33 PM
The whole reason given for electric vehicles is climate change, if climate change is not real then there is no need for electric vehicles. Does it still have nothing to do with electric cars ?

The whole reason? I think you are wrong, it has far more to do with localised pollution than climate change.

After all, it is perfectly possible to run an ICE vehicle on zero carbon fuels if you wish, and those vehicles may still produce pollutants - for example, particulates from biodiesel. It is also perfectly possible to be running an electric car on CO₂ producing fossil fuel electricity.

It's the means by which the energy is produced that you are questioning, and Jocko started the other thread to separate this from the subject of electric cars, as it was taking over the thread.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on March 16, 2021, 12:20:30 PM

The whole reason given for electric vehicles is climate change, if climate change is not real then there is no need for electric vehicles. Does it still have nothing to do with electric cars ?

How much does it take to convince you that climate change, or whatever they are calling it now is real?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on March 16, 2021, 12:38:34 PM

The whole reason given for electric vehicles is climate change, if climate change is not real then there is no need for electric vehicles. Does it still have nothing to do with electric cars ?

How much does it take to convince you that climate change, or whatever they are calling it now is real?

The fact that climate change zealots do not listen to any alternative arguments,  and anyone who proposes a different view is quickly 'canceled' ( like Prof David Bellamy was, his funding withdrawn and ditched by the media channels that had fought over getting him onto their channels before  ).  If a scientist wants plenty of funding and unfettered, unquestioned access to all media the easiest thing is to 'toe the party line'  - its like the emperors new clothes.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on March 16, 2021, 12:45:40 PM
The whole reason given for electric vehicles is climate change, if climate change is not real then there is no need for electric vehicles. Does it still have nothing to do with electric cars ?

The whole reason? I think you are wrong, it has far more to do with localised pollution than climate change.

After all, it is perfectly possible to run an ICE vehicle on zero carbon fuels if you wish, and those vehicles may still produce pollutants - for example, particulates from biodiesel. It is also perfectly possible to be running an electric car on CO₂ producing fossil fuel electricity.

It's the means by which the energy is produced that you are questioning, and Jocko started the other thread to separate this from the subject of electric cars, as it was taking over the thread.

Bio diesel and biofuels in general are the worst thing ever to come out of climate change, thousands of square miles of rainforest burnt and destroyed to plant millions of acres of monocrops that support no wildlife and quickly deplete the fragile soil,  so the soil washed away and thousands of square miles of virgin rainforest have to be destroyed again for more biofuel plants- repeat as many times as needed. Climate change is all smoke and mirrors,  and the 'cure' is very often worse than the so called disease.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on March 16, 2021, 12:52:56 PM
The whole reason given for electric vehicles is climate change, if climate change is not real then there is no need for electric vehicles. Does it still have nothing to do with electric cars ?

The whole reason? I think you are wrong, it has far more to do with localised pollution than climate change.

After all, it is perfectly possible to run an ICE vehicle on zero carbon fuels if you wish, and those vehicles may still produce pollutants - for example, particulates from biodiesel. It is also perfectly possible to be running an electric car on CO₂ producing fossil fuel electricity.

It's the means by which the energy is produced that you are questioning, and Jocko started the other thread to separate this from the subject of electric cars, as it was taking over the thread.

Bio diesel and biofuels in general are the worst thing ever to come out of climate change, thousands of square miles of rainforest burnt and destroyed to plant millions of acres of monocrops that support no wildlife and quickly deplete the fragile soil,  so the soil washed away and thousands of square miles of virgin rainforest have to be destroyed again for more biofuel plants- repeat as many times as needed. Climate change is all smoke and mirrors,  and the 'cure' is very often worse than the so called disease.

This is something I 100% agree with. Total wrong start knee jerk response, driven by big agriculture and governments.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on March 16, 2021, 12:56:55 PM
Yes - climate change is a product of people's imagination and is all lies.

The fact that average temperatures are claimed to be rising and I no longer see 1 meter deep snowdrifts in our garden in winter as I did in the 1980s and 1990 is irrelevant. It's all a product of the writings of nutters . The absence of snow and the record of higher and higher  recorded peak summer temperatures in the UK and round the world is only proof of global cooling.

 8)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on March 16, 2021, 01:02:25 PM
Bio diesel and biofuels in general are the worst thing ever to come out of climate change, thousands of square miles of rainforest burnt and destroyed to plant millions of acres of monocrops that support no wildlife and quickly deplete the fragile soil,  so the soil washed away and thousands of square miles of virgin rainforest have to be destroyed again for more biofuel plants- repeat as many times as needed.

I absolutely concur with you here, but what has that got to do with electric cars?


Climate change is all smoke and mirrors,  and the 'cure' is very often worse than the so called disease.

That's one opinion, fair enough - but on the whole, I would beg to differ. However, it has little or nothing to do with electric vehicles IMHO.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on March 16, 2021, 01:05:43 PM
This is something I 100% agree with. Total wrong start knee jerk response, driven by big agriculture and governments.

Do you really think that "climate change is all smoke and mirrors"?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on March 16, 2021, 01:19:30 PM
This is something I 100% agree with. Total wrong start knee jerk response, driven by big agriculture and governments.

Do you really think that "climate change is all smoke and mirrors"?

No. Sorry. Missed that bit. I was referring to the bio fuels. I believe climate change is real and happening now.

I drive a hybrid car, which is a start but a nod in the right direction. I just think (and I explained in a longer post earlier today) that the jump to batteries has meant we have also jumped to recharging technologies which are not and may never be fit for purpose. And I worry that we are building a whole recharging infrastructure which might be made irrelevant by a better method of distributing electrical charge.

EDIT: Typo. Changed 'work' to 'worry'.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on March 16, 2021, 01:34:55 PM
Steering us back to electric cars,

I drive a hybrid car, which is a start but a nod in the right direction. I just think (and I explained in a longer post earlier today) that the jump to batteries has meant we have also jumped to recharging technologies which are not and may never be fit for purpose. And I work that we are building a whole recharging infrastructure which might be made irrelevant by a better method of distributing electrical charge.

I think that's right, we should be wary of investing heavily into a system which may be rendered obsolete by future developments in energy storage. It's like buying fuel in cans before roadside pumps became the norm.

It's one of the reasons I currently tend to favour home charging. Whilst it limits your daily range, it's unlikely to be rendered obsolete.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on March 16, 2021, 01:48:55 PM
Whilst it limits your daily range, it's unlikely to be rendered obsolete.

And here's the rub. The reason I drive a hybrid and not a full on BEV. There are a number of reasons why I won't consider the jump to full on battery driven vehicles just yet, despite being a climate change believer. Daily range is not the issue for me.

It's the once or twice a month situation where I need to do journeys which would be giving me 'range anxiety' with currently affordable electric only vehicles. And the occasional impulse decision to go to Whitby for the day because it turned out nice again Mrs. I could get there, but could I find somewhere practical and available to recharge so I can drive home again? Public transport is simply a non starter for that kind of journey.

And then there's the 240 mile journey I need to make in September to my holiday booking in Pembrokeshire. Where do I charge there for the week I am there? Again, public transport might get me most of the way but would be impractical for a family holiday whilst there.

So it is about a combination of charging availability, charging rate, affordable on board range, cars available for short term hire on short notice, self driving, self delivering. Integrated public transport journeys. Get me to Swansea then supply me with a locally hired BEV.

There a whole boatload of technologies, business practices, legislation and infrastructure that are all emerging at once, making it a very volatile and scary time to switch from a known and reliable fuel to something else.

EDIT: for clarity.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 16, 2021, 03:21:55 PM
I am going for the MG5 just as soon as circumstances allow.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on March 16, 2021, 03:32:25 PM
It's the once or twice a month situation where I need to do journeys which would be giving me 'range anxiety' with currently affordable electric only vehicles. And the occasional impulse decision to go to Whitby for the day because it turned out nice again Mrs. I could get there, but could I find somewhere practical and available to recharge so I can drive home again? Public transport is simply a non starter for that kind of journey.

And then there's the 240 mile journey I need to make in September to my holiday booking in Pembrokeshire. Where do I charge there for the week I am there? Again, public transport might get me most of the way but would be impractical for a family holiday whilst there.

I absolutely agree. Whilst long journeys can certainly be undertaken in an electric car with a bit of planning, it is short of being completely practical away from major routes, where to be fair, a pretty substantial charging network is developing.

I can't imagine doing a trip to Orkney etc. in anything other than a ICE vehicle at the moment - I never have to stop to fill up, just swap drivers. Yes, charging is available en route, but having to stop 2 or 3 times to refuel, each time for 30 minutes (or more, depending upon the charger type) is just too inconvenient, and then the range anxiety can't be much fun when you're trying to judge the best point to recharge to get the most from each stop.

That said, we run two cars, and the Jazz takes care of all the local running about. It almost never does more than 50-60 miles per day for the vast majority of the time. I can see an electric car being perfect if you only need something for short-medium distances, charged at home from e7 electricity or solar/wind/powerwall. However, if you regularly travel long distances, you would be need to be dedicated to the cause to put up with the current drawbacks.

There a whole boatload of technologies, business practices, legislation and infrastructure that are all emerging at once, making it a very volatile and scary time to switch from a known and reliable fuel to something else.

Everything is changing, and personally I would struggle to commit any serious outlay on a new vehicle - I look no more than a few years ahead at the moment. The diesel I have now will have saved me enough in fuel and road tax, over the car it replaced, to have paid for its purchase price in about 10-12,000 miles. It will owe me nothing really.

One thing is for sure, electric vehicles are the future, in one form or another.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on March 16, 2021, 03:37:07 PM
I am going for the MG5 just as soon as circumstances allow.

I don't blame you, they're a nice enough car. I like the ZS too, and that sort of range would be fine for 99% of the driving we do.

Something smaller and cheaper would be appealing to us as a second car, I'm looking forward to seeing the small electric MG when it arrives. If I can make the fuel savings pay for the car, I would be interested.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 16, 2021, 03:45:31 PM
I am on an MG5 forum, and all the active safety systems it doesn't have are the things the guys on here keep complaining about, such as Lane Keeping assistance. Lots of the guys on the forum have them as company cars, and when they compare them to the cars they have replaced, they are actually quite impressed.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on March 16, 2021, 03:55:54 PM
That said, we run two cars,...
We just run the one car (since I think my son won't be handing back the Jazz now) so it has to cover most of the bases. It's pretty good too. The only reason I am considering changing it is that the kids are gone, my two bigger dogs are now sadly gone so it's just the two of us and a little pooch rattling around in a family car.

I am on an MG5 forum, and all the active safety systems it doesn't have are the things the guys on here keep complaining about, such as Lane Keeping assistance.
That is so amusing. My car has all of those systems and I just let them do their thing but if my next car didn't have them, I would neither be bothered, nor would I do a little dance of joy. They are nice to haves but mostly about marketing.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on March 16, 2021, 04:13:45 PM
I am on an MG5 forum, and all the active safety systems it doesn't have are the things the guys on here keep complaining about, such as Lane Keeping assistance. Lots of the guys on the forum have them as company cars, and when they compare them to the cars they have replaced, they are actually quite impressed.

The restyled front end looks much smarter on the facelift... but when that comes, I can see some pre-registered existing shape bargains to be had.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 16, 2021, 04:22:12 PM
The MG5 guys reckon it will be two years before we see the new shape here, going by past experience of MG.

It has just been confirmed for October 2021. !!!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on March 16, 2021, 04:29:15 PM
The MG5 guys reckon it will be two years before we see the new shape here, going by past experience of MG.

It has just been confirmed for October 2021. !!!

Yes, that's what I saw earlier. Looks rather nice.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 17, 2021, 09:58:21 AM
It would appear that the October 2021 date is for LHD mainland Europe (the MG5 is currently not available in Europe, one of the reasons it has not been submitted for Euro NCAP testing). We are not expecting the RHD variant to be available here until October 2022.

(https://news.mgmotor.eu/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/MG5-ELECTRIC_scaled-1600x900.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on March 17, 2021, 10:39:07 AM
That looks great. Personally though, I need something more upright for my bad back, greater ground clearance for the roads and tracks near me and, ideally, four wheel drive, for the same reasons. I was hoping the Crosstar would have a 4WD option but I can see that is not to be. Perhaps the next HRV might have it, or the Toyota Yaris Cross maybe. Otherwise, my choices are quite limited or I forgo 4WD.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 17, 2021, 11:09:45 AM
Maybe the new MG Marvel R is more for you.

(https://thedriven.io/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/MG_MARVEL_R_03-800x450.jpg)

https://thedriven.io/2021/03/17/mg-unveils-electric-tri-motor-marvel-r-and-mg5-wagon/ (https://thedriven.io/2021/03/17/mg-unveils-electric-tri-motor-marvel-r-and-mg5-wagon/)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on March 17, 2021, 11:24:19 AM
That looks lovely too Jocko, thanks for sharing. Thing is, it's the same size as my RAV4 and my main reason for considering a change is too a smaller car. Someone near me has an early model RAV4 and it struck me how much smaller it is than the current model. I know generally cars get bigger over the years but the difference really struck me. I think a similar thing has happened with the Civic and is happening with the Jazz.

Back in 2013, when I handed back my final company car, a 3rd generation CRV, for a couple of months I drove the 1st gen Honda Jazz I had bought for my eldest son's 21st birthday. I loved it's whole ethos and the small size so much I bought myself a 2nd generation Jazz. Foolishly, I traded it for new HRV soon after that launched and I was never happy with that vehicle. A family death and the need to inherit a 3rd mid sized dog drove me back up to the RAV4, which was back to the same size as my Honda CRV. Now I find myself with just one small dog and we hanker again for a smaller vehicle. That 1st gen Jazz is still in the family though and serving time as a runabout and small van.

The RAV4 has a second, less powerful, electric motor on the rear axle, which gives it 4WD on demand. It is seamless, modest and very useful. It is constantly kicking in when needed, most noticeably on a particular sharp, heavily chambered and very steep bend on the road leading to my village.

I think if Crosstar had launched with a 4WD option, I would be driving one now.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 17, 2021, 01:54:41 PM
I am now one step closer to my MG5 as my wife is now wholeheartedly behind the project. I am thinking of going down the PCP route or whatever the best recommendation is for a private owner. At 73, I am not worried about keeping a car (I am more concerned about not outliving the PCP contract  :-X ). My annual mileage will be minimal.
As of the 5th of April, I will be able to visit my local dealer, whom I have been in contact with today.
I do not know what model to go for, but that will possibly depend more on monthly payments than the nice toys.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: springswood on March 18, 2021, 07:03:11 AM
A bit of honest envy here Jocko. I'm fancying an estate next (dogs) and with a range around 200 miles it seems perfectly feasible as an only car.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on March 18, 2021, 11:00:19 AM
I am now one step closer to my MG5 as my wife is now wholeheartedly behind the project. I am thinking of going down the PCP route or whatever the best recommendation is for a private owner. At 73, I am not worried about keeping a car (I am more concerned about not outliving the PCP contract  :-X ). My annual mileage will be minimal.
As of the 5th of April, I will be able to visit my local dealer, whom I have been in contact with today.
I do not know what model to go for, but that will possibly depend more on monthly payments than the nice toys.

Looking good and keep us posted. Our MG dealer is, quite literally, just round the corner from where I live so if/when I change (probably 2 years away) the temptation to go MG will be overwhelming.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on March 18, 2021, 11:05:39 AM
Seems a bit backwards

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/mar/18/uk-slashes-grants-for-electric-car-buyers-while-increasing-petrol-vehicle-support
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on March 18, 2021, 11:17:10 AM
Looks like it will mostly affect Mr Moneybags buying expensive cars. Unlikely to make much difference to us normal folk.

But yes, it does look like a backward step.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on March 18, 2021, 11:37:29 AM
Seems a bit backwards

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/mar/18/uk-slashes-grants-for-electric-car-buyers-while-increasing-petrol-vehicle-support
Seems weird before COP 26
Looks like it will mostly affect Mr Moneybags buying expensive cars. Unlikely to make much difference to us normal folk.

But yes, it does look like a backward step.

"The maximum grant for electric cars has been reduced to £2,500 with immediate effect on Thursday, from £3,000. The government has also lowered the price cap for cars eligible for the subsidy from £50,000 to £35,000."

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on March 18, 2021, 11:42:04 AM
Well there is the £500 hit for everyone. But subsidising someone buying a £50k car does seem excessive to me. As I understand it, stopping doing this means there is more money in the scheme for the average buyer to get a subsidy on an average type car. I.E. they are looking to eke out a finite amount of money more fairly.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on March 18, 2021, 12:53:02 PM
As I understand it, stopping doing this means there is more money in the scheme for the average buyer to get a subsidy on an average type car. I.E. they are looking to eke out a finite amount of money more fairly.

It looks like they are looking to eke out less money to me. Surely your average buyer will be £500 worse off.

That's before you consider reducing fossil fuel costs in real terms by freezing duty, whilst lifting the electricity price caps.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on March 18, 2021, 02:04:00 PM
Remember though, this is a Tory government. I am not defending them. The timing certainly seems off. Maybe they are going to start subsidising coal powered cars provided the coal comes from the new mine in Cumbria.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on March 18, 2021, 02:16:21 PM
Remember though, this is a Tory government. I am not defending them. The timing certainly seems off. Maybe they are going to start subsidising coal powered cars provided the coal comes from the new mine in Cumbria.
Bring back the Stanley Steamer.
I can just picture JRM in one of these.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TiJazz on March 18, 2021, 04:21:55 PM
Looks like it will mostly affect Mr Moneybags buying expensive cars. Unlikely to make much difference to us normal folk.

But yes, it does look like a backward step.
Not really. As I said elsewhere, the Model 3 is a normal affordable car in the US. Over here it’s artificially expensive through taxes and import costs. The grant took the edge off those, yet it was still overpriced vs the US. We need more grants for £40k cars that are actually £30k in their home market, but are £40k over here due to distance and our own regulations.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on March 18, 2021, 08:19:36 PM
Interesting article about battery life, as usual it is down to temperature and charge rates, and when will the battery reach the point where degradation rate increases dramatically.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/long-electric-car-battery-last-173833772.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cDovL2ZvcnVtcy5zdjY1MC5vcmcvc2hvd3RocmVhZC5waHA_dD0yMzc5NTYmcGFnZT0yNQ&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAGs7CaJo4SlJgoypduJRGn2ngNKHDuP1XNu8aCyZqcnnn4rOWueXerJ9WPmrpAPnTeQCar5f8NIFY9t7CUzXsw6IWDCZ_p9URJt5Vhe7JKtC84DXYn3M-lBYXFKY3LSz6hZSF4h0iJGMo_rP3kzaw7zE2GqyCUzLkA7mIJoCx8Sl
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on March 19, 2021, 04:13:58 PM
Interesting commentary from Tortoise (https://www.tortoisemedia.com/) today about one car-maker’s ambitions:

Batteries included. Within five years normal people may actually be able to afford electric cars. Within ten there won’t be many non-electric ones for sale, and the riddle of who’ll be the next Tesla is now solved. It won’t be another start-up. It’ll be the company that brought you dieselgate.

These are the outlines of a revolution in personal transport that came into focus this week as VW reinvented itself as the world’s biggest electric car maker. It took some smoke and mirrors because most of the million battery-powered cars it plans to sell this year haven’t been built yet. But the markets lapped it up.

In two momentous days for human mobility, VW opened its Wolfsburg HQ to media and investors and:

- bet the farm on producing all the batteries it needs in its own factories;
- tried to end any residual argument about whether the future of cars lies in batteries, hybrids or hydrogen, by promising that economies of scale will bring battery pack costs below the key threshold of $100 per kilowatt-hour;
- put the scandal of under-measuring diesel emissions behind it at last, with a 48-hour share price rally that added more than $50 billion to its value.
Joining VW in a formidable vote for lithium ion that looks set to reconfigure the world’s energy maps are Tesla (of course) but also Daimler, GM, Renault-Nissan, BMW and Ford. Between them they’ve pledged more than $200 billion in investment in EVs.

Still on the fence – besotted with hybrids and unable to shake its fascination with fuel cells – is Toyota, the biggest car brand of them all. But if VW is right, government mandates for phasing out internal combustion altogether could mean it overtakes Toyota soon in sales volume and Tesla in market cap.

Four factors drove VW up the EV on-ramp:

- Dieselgate was existential. The 2015 scandal prompted by US findings that the firm was massaging its emissions data cost it €27 billion in fines and forced new management to rethink the whole brand.
- The cost of EU emissions targets was getting out of hand. The company faced another €1.5 billion in fines for missing them in 2019 alone.
- Timetables for banning internal combustion engines from 2030 were set by at least 17 governments across Europe and the Americas.
- Tesla showed the way. Elon Musk chose the simplicity of batteries over the complexity of hybrids and reimagined the car as a connected device with over-the-air software updates; a smartphone on wheels. The markets rewarded him with a roughly 16-fold share price increase in three years.

By the numbers:

80 – VW’s planned investment in EVs, in billion euros
42, 30, 30, 10, 8 – equivalent numbers for Daimler, BMW, Ford, Renault-Nissan and GM respectively
50 – number of battery-powered models VW plans to bring to market by 2030
4 – number of models Tesla currently sells
0.5 – factor by which VW says it will reduce the cost of its electric powertrains by 2030
6 – number of battery gigafactories it plans to build in Europe
18,000 – number of fast-charging stations it says it will build with partners by 2023
10,000 – number of software engineers it’s hiring
11,500 – number of current staff being offered early or partial retirement

Is this only about VW? No, even though it’s done a grand job of hogging the spotlight this week. See rivals’ EV investments above. Note also i) BMW is competing on purity as well as volume: it wants to produce the greenest car ever when recycling is taken into account, and projects a 20-fold increase in EV sales by 2030; and ii) VW owns Audi, Skoda, Porsche, Bentley and Lamborghini, and they’re all going electric too.

What about the UK? Nissan, BMW, Jaguar and Ford are all gradually converting UK production lines to building mainly or only battery-powered cars. But if one country has picked up Tesla’s gauntlet, it’s Germany. “We don’t have the credentials of a start-up,” says Herbert Diess, the slimline technocrat who runs VW. “We have to prove ourselves.”

If the idea of start-ups having all the credentials suggests the world’s been turned upside down, maybe it has.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on March 20, 2021, 10:23:15 AM
And just to balance VW's unbounded optimism, anyone looking to use the public charging infrastructure for a shiny new EV should take a look at Which?'s conclusions about whether it's fit-for-purpose at present:
https://www.which.co.uk/news/2021/03/5-problems-with-electric-car-charging-and-how-to-fix-them/

The article concentrates on the usability of the existing infrastructure, so doesn't consider issues such as the paucity of charge points and the reliability of the ones that do exist. They conclude "Today’s electric car charging infrastructure is disjointed, complicated and far from user friendly ...". There are more than 30 charging networks across the UK, each with their own variety of pricing structures, payment methods, apps, and smart cards which are not interchangeable. That's a bit like Shell, BP, Sainsburys, etc having specific filler nozzles that only fit certain types of car, and will only allow you to pay with their own bespoke payment cards.

What's more, if you have to rely on the public infrastructure (ie if you can't have home charging) it'll cost you about the same to run an EV as it will an ICE. But that's before HMG has worked out how it's going to implement road pricing to replace the revenue it loses from fuel sales.

So why bother? Oh yes, it's because there won't be new ICE cars in a few years so we'll have to. On balance I suspect that's probably a good thing, but it's just not practical for anyone wanting to make that change early. Hopefully we'll get the eureka moment "And then a miracle happened" that'll fix it all, but at present the omens aren't good.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on March 20, 2021, 11:16:47 AM
There are more than 30 charging networks across the UK, each with their own variety of pricing structures, payment methods, apps, and smart cards which are not interchangeable. That's a bit like Shell, BP, Sainsburys, etc having specific filler nozzles that only fit certain types of car, and will only allow you to pay with their own bespoke payment cards.

Whilst many of the larger commercial operators do have registration scheme for various billing and discounting arrangements, all of the charging sites local to me (Shell, CYC, Instavolt) accept standard contactless bank or credit card payment with no pre-registration. You can just rock up, flash your payment card and plug in.

It's the stand alone units which tend to require pre-registration and an RFID card from the provider. They are usually independent of the site on which they are placed, operated by a third party renting a space on the forecourt or car park for their charging bay. As these machines have no connection to any on site facilities for billing, they usually use their own method of identifying the customer, so they can be billed remotely.

One thing I have noticed is that prices are on the up. Shell (on the A1) have always been the most expensive fuel in the area, essentially they are a motorway services, but they now charge an eye-watering 41p per KWh - it was around 30p the last time I checked, and that wasn't very long ago. The cost is half that in the nearest town.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on March 20, 2021, 11:52:43 AM
This is an interesting reference for those north of the border, ChargePlace Scotland is a very reasonably priced (some free to use) public charging network. Surprisingly good coverage, some of them are in very remote areas indeed - it shows what can be done.

https://chargeplacescotland.org/
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on March 20, 2021, 12:25:33 PM
Some of those public charger costs are horrendous. Which? highlighted that some chargers bill for time plugged in as well as for kWh put into the battery. As batteries get bigger then the ability to do a full charge at home on cheaper overnight electricity reduces. I wonder how many people will get an EV, discover that the running cost is significantly more than with their previous vehicle and then do a U-turn?  In principle, I'm willing to buy an EV once range anxiety issues have been resolved but only if there's a significant saving in the running costs compared with my current vehicle.

The government could give people a strong push in the EV direction by steadily increasing the tax on petrol and diesel which also provides an incentive to dump gas-guzzlers in favour of more economical ICE vehicles and thus help the bottom line on the carbon calcs. However, the current government doesn't seem inclined to do this. They should have added more tax when fuel prices dropped a year ago and people wouldn't have noticed.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: embee on March 20, 2021, 12:25:47 PM
The deal breaker for me right now is that I want/need to be able to tow a small trailer. No small EV is homologated for towing as far as I'm aware. Some bigger hybrids are, but I don't want a big Mitsubishi etc.
I doubt this will change, the demand for towing is miniscule especially in the small car category. I tow with a 1.0L Yaris, it does the job fine as long as you don't want to go up steep hills in a hurry (often can need 2nd gear!  ;D )
By the time I am forced to go EV it's unlikely I'll still want to tow, so that problem will go away.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on March 20, 2021, 12:40:30 PM
A devastating report on the state of play regarding EVs has just been published by "Which" - it paints such a bleak picture of what life with an EV is like that you would have thought it had been sponsored by the oil industry.

A caveat here. If you have home charging and never go more than 100 miles these issues aren't an issue.

"Which" sum things up with this pithy sentence:

"We can't expect people to make the switch to electric cars until there is a simple, accessible, charging infrastructure in place."

Another point made was this:

"Imagine if a major fuel chain such as Esso announced you would no longer be able to pay for your petrol or diesel using cash, credit or debit card at most of its garages."

"Instead you'll need different apps or wireless cards for most other petrol chains and there are more than 30 of them out there.

As consumers we wouldn't stand for this happening on our forecourts. But this is the reality of electric car charging in the UK today."
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on March 20, 2021, 12:49:21 PM
Reminds me of Smart Meters.
Another very expensive shambles.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on March 20, 2021, 01:51:55 PM
This is an interesting reference for those north of the border, ChargePlace Scotland is a very reasonably priced (some free to use) public charging network. Surprisingly good coverage, some of them are in very remote areas indeed - it shows what can be done.

https://chargeplacescotland.org/

It can be done and things will have moved on a lot since 2016 and will improve even more in the next few years.
https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/features/electric_cars__-_realistic_for_climbers_and_hillwalkers-9100
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TiJazz on March 20, 2021, 01:52:01 PM
This is exactly how I explain EVs to people - as long as you have home charging and never exceed the range of the car in a round trip, it’s a good idea.

Or buy a Tesla with access to Superchargers.

Aside from that, stay away.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on March 20, 2021, 02:34:02 PM
Another point made was this:

"Imagine if a major fuel chain such as Esso announced you would no longer be able to pay for your petrol or diesel using cash, credit or debit card at most of its garages."

"Instead you'll need different apps or wireless cards for most other petrol chains and there are more than 30 of them out there.

That's the thing though. In that respect, I think the Which report is completely wrong in suggesting that any major chain will force you to use any of those methods.

As far as I can tell, all the major charging chains operating their own charging sites allow you to roll up and pay by contactless credit or debit card, without any registration, app, or anything like that. Fair enough, I don't think you can pay by cash, but that must be a rapidly diminishing sector. This type of charging site, operated by BP, Shell, etc., will operate in just the same way as existing filling stations.

The problem starts when you try to use one of the many hosted chargers that are scattered about, operated by someone other than the site owner - they all seem to have their own payment systems. However, I don't think it's fair to compare this to the way that petrol and diesel is sold, it's a completely different business model. It's like comparing Tesco with Amazon - you wouldn't expect Amazon to sell you something without registering first, and I'm sure they won't accept cash.

While a petrol station needs considerable planning and capital investment, just about any business can have one of these hosted chargers plonked in their car park and take a rent from it. The reason these third party chargers have popped up is because of the ease by which they can be installed just about anywhere there is access to a reasonable supply.

I see these hosted chargers being worthwhile if one is particularly convenient for you, but I don't really see them as part of a national charging infrastructure. The big players will soon take care of that, as they do now with petrol and diesel.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 20, 2021, 03:08:23 PM
but they now charge an eye-watering 41p per KWh
With EVs returning around 3 to 4 miles kWh at 41p/kWh, that works out at about 10 - 13p/mile. Shell beside me is currently charging £5.77/gallon of bog-standard unleaded (this is a town price, not motorway prices). So unless you get more than 44 mpg, that is no more eye-watering than filling up with Shell, and at 10p/mile, you have to get more than 57.7 mpg for the petrol to be cheaper
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 20, 2021, 03:19:48 PM
The guys on the MG5 forum all seem to get about the country with no problems. Me personally, I would not want to stop 30-40 minutes every 150 - 200 miles, though travelling with my family, you have to do that, even with the Jazz, or face an insurrection.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on March 20, 2021, 03:30:21 PM
but they now charge an eye-watering 41p per KWh
With EVs returning around 3 to 4 miles kWh at 41p/kWh, that works out at about 10 - 13p/mile. Shell beside me is currently charging £5.77/gallon of bog-standard unleaded (this is a town price, not motorway prices). So unless you get more than 44 mpg, that is no more eye-watering than filling up with Shell, and at 10p/mile, you have to get more than 57.7 mpg for the petrol to be cheaper

In the context of the post, I wasn't comparing to petrol or diesel. I consider 41p eye-watering when you compare it to the 20p per kWh you can pay just 5 miles down the road - imagine how much trade a garage would do trying to sell petrol for £12 a gallon.

There's a great deal of scope for reducing your fuel costs with electric cars, especially if you can charge at home for 6-10p per kWh.

Have you seen https://chargeplacescotland.org/ I posted above Jocko?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on March 20, 2021, 03:37:38 PM
Another point made was this:

"Imagine if a major fuel chain such as Esso announced you would no longer be able to pay for your petrol or diesel using cash, credit or debit card at most of its garages."

"Instead you'll need different apps or wireless cards for most other petrol chains and there are more than 30 of them out there.

That's the thing though. In that respect, I think the Which report is completely wrong in suggesting that any major chain will force you to use any of those methods.

As far as I can tell, all the major charging chains operating their own charging sites allow you to roll up and pay by contactless credit or debit card, without any registration, app, or anything like that. Fair enough, I don't think you can pay by cash, but that must be a rapidly diminishing sector. This type of charging site, operated by BP, Shell, etc., will operate in just the same way as existing filling stations.

The problem starts when you try to use one of the many hosted chargers that are scattered about, operated by someone other than the site owner - they all seem to have their own payment systems. However, I don't think it's fair to compare this to the way that petrol and diesel is sold, it's a completely different business model. It's like comparing Tesco with Amazon - you wouldn't expect Amazon to sell you something without registering first, and I'm sure they won't accept cash.

While a petrol station needs considerable planning and capital investment, just about any business can have one of these hosted chargers plonked in their car park and take a rent from it. The reason these third party chargers have popped up is because of the ease by which they can be installed just about anywhere there is access to a reasonable supply.

I see these hosted chargers being worthwhile if one is particularly convenient for you, but I don't really see them as part of a national charging infrastructure. The big players will soon take care of that, as they do now with petrol and diesel.

I agree cash is likely to be less and less of an issue going forward. That said I have checked with one of my EV owning pals and he confirms that he still has to have several apps and RFID cards if going further afield.

Some companies - BP for one - are going down the credit/debit card route but others - like Ecotricity who have a virtual monopoly on the motorway network, do not allow universal access.

This can be fixed but it will need intervention by the state (ideally in conjunction with other countries) to force the issue. It's less than 9 years to the ban and I would argue the charging industry needs a severe kick up the proverbial.

This really isn't rocket science. Incidentally, by 2030, research indicates that the fuel mix of cars on UK roads will be 12 million EVs and 21 million ICE (some hybrid of course). Ideally you would want those numbers reversing. Anecdotal evidence (my neighbour owns a garage) indicates that resistance to going EV will last long after 2030 until and unless universal access and universal charging protocols are adopted.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on March 20, 2021, 03:41:11 PM
The guys on the MG5 forum all seem to get about the country with no problems. Me personally, I would not want to stop 30-40 minutes every 150 - 200 miles, though travelling with my family, you have to do that, even with the Jazz, or face an insurrection.

Of course long distances can be done, and these larger charging sites are being set up so you can park up, plug in and go for a bite to eat and a coffee. The Shell one near me is just like that - I wondered why they were building a KFC, Costa, Subway, etc., and then all the charging points appeared. I don't think that people realise how fast these sites are appearing.

In any case, 350kW CCS charging is coming - a full charge in 8 minutes. This will be the near future, fast charging and a common connection standard.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on March 20, 2021, 03:47:01 PM
I agree progress is being made. My argument is that it is not happening quickly enough and, as far as I can see, no progress has been made towards a universal charging protocol so ALL cars can recharge at ALL charging points.

Incidentally I want to go full EV and agonised long and hard about it when I last changed my car. The situation was dire for some of the longer journeys we make and it's not much better today.

Use the HS2 money I say ;)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on March 20, 2021, 03:54:56 PM
I'm hoping to get a Jazz hybrid later this year and hopefully hang onto it till 2030 ish. My current car is 8 years old, only on 24k and with my low mileage 8 years is easily doable.

The Which? article is interesting and whether the petrol big boys try it on we will see.

I remember when supermarkets started selling petrol, undercutting the big boys who were up in arms. I dread to think what petrol would cost now if it wasn't for the supermarkets.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 20, 2021, 04:00:23 PM
Have you seen https://chargeplacescotland.org/ I posted above Jocko?
I have, thanks. The charging infrastructure here and the prices charged are strong drivers of my urge to go electric. Although I intend to charge at home 99.9% of the time. We are also talking about installing solar panels as the house has a SSW aspect, with no trees, hills or such to block the sun. That way, I can charge up during the day at no electricity cost.
Most UK cars come with Type 2 and CCS charging points, so they are more or less universal. Type 2 can use many Tesla Superchargers but don't get the speed of charge a Tesla would.

(https://www.zap-map.com/engine/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/CCS-Connector-bfb3fefb.jpg)
(https://www.zap-map.com/engine/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/CHAdeMO-Connector-863ec23e.jpg)
(https://www.zap-map.com/engine/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Type-2-Mennekes-Connector-dbd29332.jpg)

CCS
CHAdeMO is the oddball, but adaptors are available.
Type 2 and Tesla.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 20, 2021, 04:08:06 PM
MG5 Dealer service costs.

1st year - £53.40.
2nd year - £132.98.
3rd year - £152,65. (MOT)
4th year - £186.63. (MOT)

I haven't looked into what you get for that, but I know it includes corrosion checks for the bodywork warranty. And of course, it comes with a seven-year warranty
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on March 20, 2021, 04:21:08 PM
I agree cash is likely to be less and less of an issue going forward. That said I have checked with one of my EV owning pals and he confirms that he still has to have several apps and RFID cards if going further afield.

Some companies - BP for one - are going down the credit/debit card route but others - like Ecotricity who have a virtual monopoly on the motorway network, do not allow universal access.

I can only go on the ones near me, and all the sites within ten miles are freely accessible without subscription or pre-registration, except for one - which is one of the hosted units on a small filling station. I live near the A1, and there are very no Ecotricity sites around here at all, Shell & BP seem to be the most common trunk road/motorway sites within 50 miles or so.

This really isn't rocket science. Incidentally, by 2030, research indicates that the fuel mix of cars on UK roads will be 12 million EVs and 21 million ICE (some hybrid of course). Ideally you would want those numbers reversing. Anecdotal evidence (my neighbour owns a garage) indicates that resistance to going EV will last long after 2030 until and unless universal access and universal charging protocols are adopted.

2030 will still see a lot of legacy vehicles on the road, people like me aren't going to be rushing to scrap perfectly good petrol and diesel vehicles. I think we will also see residuals of these vehicles plummeting soon, that's why I have absolutely no intention of ploughing any sort of money into a car for some time. It's a tricky time to be buying. Petrol/diesel is on the way out, and electric is still in the early adopter phase really, without fully matured technology.

I think things will soon change as the big fuel suppliers switch over to recharging sites, and the common standards for charging are already in the pipeline. I think your garage owning neighbour will be surprised by the progress over the next 5 years, and I suspect that there are many drivers of diesel/petrol cars who don't realise how quickly this infrastructure is being built.

I agree progress is being made. My argument is that it is not happening quickly enough and, as far as I can see, no progress has been made towards a universal charging protocol so ALL cars can recharge at ALL charging points.

A universal charging standard is coming, many of the volume manufacturers have signed up to the project, and even Tesla have committed to it.


Really interesting discussion this though!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on March 20, 2021, 04:22:34 PM
MG5 Dealer service costs.

1st year - £53.40.
2nd year - £132.98.
3rd year - £152,65. (MOT)
4th year - £186.63. (MOT)

I haven't looked into what you get for that, but I know it includes corrosion checks for the bodywork warranty. And of course, it comes with a seven-year warranty

They're not going to be doing a lot, are they.

A sheet of 'check this' boxes to tick, but not much actually done apart from greasing the door hinges  ;)

According to this https://mg.co.uk/owners/servicing/#vip-all-new-mg5-ev-2020-on

interval 15K
pollen filter, brake fluid and new key batteries every 30K
coolant replaced every 75K

...and a free 'Morris the bear'

(https://mg.co.uk/m/060e7b/300.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on March 21, 2021, 10:09:52 AM
With EVs returning around 3 to 4 miles kWh at 41p/kWh, that works out at about 10 - 13p/mile. Shell beside me is currently charging £5.77/gallon of bog-standard unleaded (this is a town price, not motorway prices). So unless you get more than 44 mpg, that is no more eye-watering than filling up with Shell, and at 10p/mile, you have to get more than 57.7 mpg for the petrol to be cheaper
Get a hybrid as the half-way solution and the numbers change. I can potter along in my Crosstar and get 70mpg (~8p/mile) and, with the range on a full tank being well over 500 miles, have plenty of options to refuel where it's cheapest. I see potential for the resale value of such vehicles staying good once sale if new ones has been discontinued.

Reminds me of Smart Meters.
Another very expensive shambles.
I agree that the smart meter roll-out has taken somewhat longer than planned but they do have their uses. I'm getting my energy from Octopus and a couple of years ago I applied to switch to their Go tariff (5p/kWh between 00.30 and 04:30 - ideal for charging my Tesla Powerwall battery during the winter half of the years when the solar generation isn't good). Because I've got smart meters the change was effective from midnight on the day of application. The meters automatically send half-hourly consumption data and all that was needed was for the computer to cost the relevant data at a lower rate.

Smart meters can't cut off your power but provide the capability to implement variable pricing according to the time of day (the Octopus Agile tariff does this). It's then up to the user to adjust their consumption pattern to minimise their energy costs.

I see potential for the public EV charging network to behave in a similar pattern with the various apps alerting people that if they want to top up their battery in the middle of a windy, sunny, summer day then it will be cheap but wait until 6pm on a winter day and it will be very expensive.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on March 21, 2021, 10:34:11 AM
Some of the more 'switched on' power companies are using Smart meters ability to vary the rates during the day but when you see the adverts 'get a smart meter and save power' they are a bit misleading. They are referring to the display that shows you that your shower uses 9KW, kettle uses 3KW, tumble dryer 3KW and your toaster 1.5KW etc.  sure the information is there,  but unless people use that info to change their habits they are not gonna save much.  I remember a bloke on a program talking about smart meters years ago, when they were just being rolled out and he said it was a golden opportunity to introduce variable rates for power but that the energy companies did not seem inclined to do that ( and one company recently got fined for still fitting the old MK1 meters that turn dumb when you change supplier ).   Many countries in the world use the actual power lines to your house to transmit and receive info ( PLC ), but not the good old UK, we decided to use cell phone network - or maybe wi-fi.   Australia used a signal down the power lines to turn water heaters on and off to regulate demand way back in the 1980's when we lived there,  I am assuming that smart meters will also eventually have a 'load shedding' capacity due to the vagaries of renewables,  maybe a 'smart distribution board' where some non-critical loads like water heaters can be controlled.  They may also turn car charging on and off LOL...

 https://www.eetimes.com/power-line-communications-for-smart-meter-networks/ 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 21, 2021, 11:20:43 AM
My mother-in-law has a PAYG electricity meter, and we changed to SMART metering so that I could check her balance and top up from home. It worked for the first top-up but not since. I now have to check her balance when I am over, top-up online, then manually enter the huge code it gives me for the payment into the meter. I think her gas meter works as it should.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on March 21, 2021, 11:31:45 AM
We have a mark 1 Smart Meter installed in 2014 iirc. Never worked since we changed suppliers in 2015. All readings manual...
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on March 21, 2021, 12:35:18 PM
We have a mark 1 Smart Meter installed in 2014 iirc. Never worked since we changed suppliers in 2015. All readings manual...

..and that's the problem with the older SMETS1 and ADM smart meters - change supplier, and you may well have to have a new smart meter fitted for it to work. Bear is mind that some suppliers are still fitting these first generation smart meters, and that the consumer is paying for the costs of all these installs through a levy on the bills. Security is also suspect on the older smart meters.

Smart meters can't cut off your power

They certainly can cut off your supply remotely, however UK suppliers have so far agreed not to use the facility. The smart meter contains a contactor (or valve) to do just that.

I am assuming that smart meters will also eventually have a 'load shedding' capacity due to the vagaries of renewables,  maybe a 'smart distribution board' where some non-critical loads like water heaters can be controlled.  They may also turn car charging on and off LOL...

 https://www.eetimes.com/power-line-communications-for-smart-meter-networks/ 

You're absolutely right culzean, it's coming.

Ofgem is currently consulting on a new type of smart meter with multiple outputs which can be switched remotely. The idea is that high power circuits such as car charging will be switched as network capacity allows - the only advantage to the consumer would be access to a cheaper tariff maybe. If this ends up being used primarily for network balancing, and not for tariff advantage, it seems to me that this would be very easily circumvented.

https://www.dcusa.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/DCP-371_Last-resort-arrangements-for-Distributors-to-manage-specific-consumer-connected-devices.pdf

https://smartenergycodecompany.co.uk/modifications/allow-dnos-to-control-electric-vehicle-chargers-connected-to-smart-meter-infrastructure/
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on March 21, 2021, 12:36:54 PM
Some of the more 'switched on' power companies are using Smart meters ability to vary the rates during the day but when you see the adverts 'get a smart meter and save power' they are a bit misleading.
Yes, it's up to the customer to use the extra information to save power with the potential of doing load shifting to reduce cost.

Many countries in the world use the actual power lines to your house to transmit and receive info ( PLC ), but not the good old UK, we decided to use cell phone network - or maybe wi-fi.   Australia used a signal down the power lines to turn water heaters on and off to regulate demand way back in the 1980's when we lived there,  I am assuming that smart meters will also eventually have a 'load shedding' capacity due to the vagaries of renewables,  maybe a 'smart distribution board' where some non-critical loads like water heaters can be controlled.  They may also turn car charging on and off LOL...
Here's an example of current Australian technology https://reneweconomy.com.au/switching-off-rooftop-solar-will-become-a-regular-feature-of-a-renewables-grid/ . It's not the meters themselves that do the switching but the capability built into connected equipment. In addition, I think all recent solar inverters are designed to reduce their output if the mains frequency rises significantly.

We have a mark 1 Smart Meter installed in 2014 iirc. Never worked since we changed suppliers in 2015. All readings manual...
I was fortunate that Octopus could get the data for my Mk 1 meter installed by Ovo. I checked this before switching.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on March 21, 2021, 07:21:37 PM
Back to the electric cars topic...

AutoExpress is saying virtually the same as the Which? report on the public charging infrastructure:
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/opinion/354562/3-word-verdict-uk-public-electric-car-charging-too-bloody-complicated

This also contains a link to a DoT consultation, so there's an opportunity to make your views known to officialdom.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on March 22, 2021, 11:02:34 AM
It tells you everything you need to know about electric vehicles when governments have to pass laws to make people adopt them. If they were affordable and easy to use people would be flocking to get them... but that is clearly not the case.  It is normally market forces that decide whether products are adopted by the public,  not legal force..... the phrase 'build it and they will come' does not seem to apply to BEV.   At the moment BEV are a novelty, and a novelty that is not anywhere near as adaptable as ICE vehicles ( towing etc. )- and come at a price not many can afford for a second car, but the more affordable ones do not as yet  have decent range ( 24KW Leaf anyone ? ), and longer journeys can be fraught with frustration and take noticeably longer than with an ICE.  Any motorway journey at decent speed will see range tumble, and charging costs on motorway are not cheap, they have a captive market.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on March 22, 2021, 11:07:00 AM
Back to the electric cars topic...

AutoExpress is saying virtually the same as the Which? report on the public charging infrastructure:
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/opinion/354562/3-word-verdict-uk-public-electric-car-charging-too-bloody-complicated

This also contains a link to a DoT consultation, so there's an opportunity to make your views known to officialdom.

Yes - I've written to my MP about the issue. On a Facebook Forum I shared details of the Which report and got a response from a chap who chairs a "sustainability forum" in my local area. He has invited me to take part in a discussion about EVs and the issues around charging. He said he is not interested, particularly, in the views of EV drivers because he says they often tend to minimise the difficulties (I guess justifying their decision). They are particularly interested in people who actively considered buying an EV (like me before my present car) but who decided not to.

I suspect it will be a "zoom" discussion so I'll have to get my head round that ;D
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on March 22, 2021, 11:17:00 AM
It tells you everything you need to know about electric vehicles when governments have to pass laws to make people adopt them. If they were affordable and easy to use people would be flocking to get them... but that is clearly not the case.  It is normally market forces that decide whether products are adopted by the public,  not legal force..... the phrase 'build it and they will come' does not seem to apply to BEV.   At the moment BEV are a novelty, and a novelty that is not anywhere near as adaptable as ICE vehicles ( towing etc. )- and come at a price not many can afford for a second car, but the more affordable ones do not as yet  have decent range ( 24KW Leaf anyone ? ), and longer journeys can be fraught with frustration and take noticeably longer than with an ICE.  Any motorway journey at decent speed will see range tumble, and charging costs on motorway are not cheap, they have a captive market.

A lot in that. Anecdotal I know but, amongst my acquaintances, I would say that around 90% are very wary of EVs. My new neighbour, who runs a garage, told me many of his customers have said how worried they are about being forced into buying an EV.

For me it's the laughable state of the charging infrastructure in much of the UK. I identified 6 journeys that we make annually (pre Covid obvs) which would be either very difficult or flat out impossible in any EV I could afford. There is the added issue of ending up with a betamax situation if/when a standard charging plug is adopted. All these issues can be sorted but I detect a lack of urgency which, given the 2030 deadline, is unforgiveable.

It's quite simple really. It should be possible to undertake any journey and be 100% guaranteed that there will be a working charger should you need to recharge on the way.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on March 22, 2021, 11:38:45 AM
I think the connection standards will be sorted out in due course, and in a few years time, you will be able to connect to any charger. Legacy vehicles may eventually need modification, or an adapter of some sort. The biggest problem at the moment is rolling up at a charger, maybe at the wrong end of your battery charge, and finding that you don't have the right subscription/app/card to access the charger.

As part of the Ecotricity/Gridserve service station upgrades, I understand the Government is forcing them to accept contactless card payments on their chargers. I don't really understand why the companies that operate these third party chargers refuse to accept card payments - it can't be a technical issue after all, you can get a contactless card payment machine that fits in the palm of you hand. Perhaps they have worked out that they can save a few pence per transaction by billing remotely.

I agree with the point made earlier, Government intervention may be required to legislate companies to offer some sort of universal access and card payments, and in due course, the new standard connectors.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 22, 2021, 12:07:18 PM
The biggest problem at the moment is rolling up at a charger, maybe at the wrong end of your battery charge, and finding that you don't have the right subscription/app/card to access the charger.
From what I have seen/read, there is usually an automated number to call, and you can set it up, there and then, over the phone, or you can do it online using your phone. And if you don't have a mobile, likely, you don't have an EV.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 22, 2021, 12:14:30 PM
I identified 6 journeys that we make annually (pre Covid obvs) which would be either very difficult or flat out impossible in any EV I could afford.
I have Zap-Map on my phone, and I would be hard-pressed to find a journey in the UK where I could not find a suitable charger. Maybe not in your destination, but certainly within a few miles of it.
Would you care to share one of the impossible ones?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on March 22, 2021, 12:38:38 PM
The biggest problem at the moment is rolling up at a charger, maybe at the wrong end of your battery charge, and finding that you don't have the right subscription/app/card to access the charger.
From what I have seen/read, there is usually an automated number to call, and you can set it up, there and then, over the phone, or you can do it online using your phone. And if you don't have a mobile, likely, you don't have an EV.

You're right, I probably should have said "the fear of".

I think most EV owners would probably be clued up enough to know where to roll up for a charge and where to avoid, and in an emergency, you should be able register on the hoof, as you say. The bigger issue is probably the perception that these difficulties exist, and that gives people an excuse to bash the existing systems.

At the end of the day, any private company offering a service to the public can set up whatever billing or registration arrangements they please - as in my earlier Tesco/Amazon comparison. Unless the government mandates them to accept a particular method of payment, presumably this will continue to be the case.

I identified 6 journeys that we make annually (pre Covid obvs) which would be either very difficult or flat out impossible in any EV I could afford.
I have Zap-Map on my phone, and I would be hard-pressed to find a journey in the UK where I could not find a suitable charger.

I think my long distance journeys could all be done with a reasonable range battery. The most remote is that drive to Orkney, and yes, it would take longer with several stops of 30-40 minutes, but there is no shortage of charging opportunities en route.

Whilst Orkney has no shortage of chargers, the one blot is that the small outer island where we end up has no public charger - although some of the smaller isles do. However, I'm sure I could come to some financial arrangement with the cottage owner to use a granny cable.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 22, 2021, 02:01:40 PM
Interesting piece in today's news. Shetland now has a charger that uses electricity generated solely by the sea.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-56482777 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-56482777)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on March 22, 2021, 02:04:46 PM

Whilst Orkney has no shortage of chargers, the one blot is that the small outer island where we end up has no public charger - although some of the smaller isles do. However, I'm sure I could come to some financial arrangement with the cottage owner to use a granny cable.
There might be by the next time you get there.
If not, as you say, I'm sure somebody would help out.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-56482777

Jocko just beat me to it.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on March 22, 2021, 02:27:43 PM
Whilst Orkney has no shortage of chargers, the one blot is that the small outer island where we end up has no public charger - although some of the smaller isles do. However, I'm sure I could come to some financial arrangement with the cottage owner to use a granny cable.
There might be by the next time you get there.

Certainly by the time I go electric, that might not be for a few years yet.

I know there's a few private EV owners on the island now, it's only 20 sq. miles so range certainly shouldn't be an issue. Even around the whole of Orkney, you can't go too far. Lots the locals have wind turbines too, so free charging most of the time  ;)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on March 22, 2021, 03:09:16 PM
I identified 6 journeys that we make annually (pre Covid obvs) which would be either very difficult or flat out impossible in any EV I could afford.
I have Zap-Map on my phone, and I would be hard-pressed to find a journey in the UK where I could not find a suitable charger. Maybe not in your destination, but certainly within a few miles of it.
Would you care to share one of the impossible ones?

I have just done a recent check on one of my difficult journeys which is to Bamford in the Peak District. Rather embarrassingly I now find that Glossop (which is en route, now boasts 2 chargers open to public use although neither of them is rapid so I will eat humble pie and say that none of my journeys are flat out impossible. That said, most of them would be inconvenient and very difficult if the charger was down. It's still not good enough for me but I'll concede things are improving.

Not sure I would want to do my last trip on holiday to Scotland with an EV - admittedly this was partly in Dumfries and Galloway which is sparsely populated.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on March 22, 2021, 03:52:08 PM
Rather embarrassingly I now find that Glossop (which is en route, now boasts 2 chargers open to public use although neither of them is rapid

Two out of the three sites in Glossop are rapid chargers as far as I can see? It does show one of them as out of service a week ago, but zap-map is full of out of date reports, and issues are often vehicle related, rather than the chargers themselves. This one seems to be a new machine with 'teething troubles'.

Not sure I would want to do my last trip on holiday to Scotland with an EV - admittedly this was partly in Dumfries and Galloway which is sparsely populated.

I don't think that getting there would be a problem - even Dumfries & Galloway is reasonably well catered for.

The problem is when you get to the destination - if there's nowhere to charge, you don't want to be driving miles to find somewhere to charge, then using some of it to get back to where you are staying... the alternative is making arrangements so that you can use the granny cable to charge up at your 'lodgings'.

Where we go, it's not so much of a problem - there's nowhere to drive to!

If EVs do suddenly take off, I do foresee another problem - waits for chargers on the motorway network. Charging bays at motorway services already look quite busy at times, but I don't think that Ecotricity's lack of investment in their systems has helped. It doesn't seem to be such a problem with the more widely distributed smaller charging facilities.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TiJazz on March 22, 2021, 03:57:14 PM
Not a problem with Tesla Superchargers (mostly). The other charging networks need to come up to that standard - essentially a Gridserve at every services.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on March 22, 2021, 04:00:10 PM
Not a problem with Tesla Superchargers (mostly). The other charging networks need to come up to that standard - essentially a Gridserve at every services.

I agree. Hopefully, now that Gridserve are now on board with Ecotricity, the suspect infrastructure should be replaced and things should improve.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on March 22, 2021, 05:14:03 PM
I don't really understand why the companies that operate these third party chargers refuse to accept card payments - it can't be a technical issue after all, you can get a contactless card payment machine that fits in the palm of you hand.
I think it is down to owning the customer relationship. If you have to register with them, you are their customer. If you can pay with any card, you're not. They clearly believe they can extract value from you being a customer of theirs.

In all of this though, it's not the location of the chargers or their state of repair that worries me. It is me rocking up to find two chargers with three cars queuing for each one.

If I get to Whitby, find a charger, plug in. Do I have to wait an hour or two for it to charge? Can I wander into Whitby for a few hours leaving my car plugged in? How does that work?

At the park and ride at Elland Road in Leeds, there are half a dozen chargers. I think drivers get there early, plug in and go to work. They come back eight hours later. What are the chances of using one of those chargers.

Until there is a way of charging a car in the same sort of time it takes to refuel with petrol, this whole project is flawed. I do thin k that will come, but I think the technology will invalidate most current EV car designs and most of the charging network. Hence my post of a few days ago.

https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=9305.msg96233#msg96233

This is all too soon. We need to let the tech catchup. Cars aren't destroying the planet on their own. Behaviour changes could have a bigger impact than a disposable 20 years of waste on current EV designs. This all suits the car makers but not the planet.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on March 22, 2021, 05:48:44 PM
Not a problem with Tesla Superchargers (mostly). The other charging networks need to come up to that standard - essentially a Gridserve at every services.

I agree. Hopefully, now that Gridserve are now on board with Ecotricity, the suspect infrastructure should be replaced and things should improve.

This could be a game changer. Gridserve do have plans for 100 EV "filling stations" like the one off the M25 at Braintree. 36 "pumps" set out like a traditional petrol station with a Costa Coffee, Booths supermarket and WH Smith to keep you occupied whilst you wait for your car to charge.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Westy36 on March 22, 2021, 06:00:30 PM
Cars aren't destroying the planet on their own. Behaviour changes could have a bigger impact than a disposable 20 years of waste on current EV designs. This all suits the car makers but not the planet.
Agreed 100%. Aviation and marine emissions are massive problems that do not seem to be being addressed.

Reverting to a bit of make do and mend, reducing the rampant consumerism trend would be a massive bonus too.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on March 22, 2021, 06:02:57 PM
I think it is down to owning the customer relationship. If you have to register with them, you are their customer. If you can pay with any card, you're not. They clearly believe they can extract value from you being a customer of theirs.

I can see it now, but I suspect it won't last as more universal chargers become available. It's a bit like bank cards - at one time, you had to search out one of your own bank's ATMs, then someone had a bright idea (or was it mandated by government, I cant remember) and now you can shove your card in any of them and get cash.

If I get to Whitby, find a charger, plug in. Do I have to wait an hour or two for it to charge? Can I wander into Whitby for a few hours leaving my car plugged in? How does that work?

I think that's the general idea. Once you start charging, you lock up and walk away for your shopping/coffee/sandwich/whatever. Nobody can interfere with your car, the doors are locked and the charger cable is locked in. You're not expected to stand there watching.

At the park and ride at Elland Road in Leeds, there are half a dozen chargers. I think drivers get there early, plug in and go to work. They come back eight hours later. What are the chances of using one of those chargers.

You probably wouldn't want to, those you find at park & rides are often slow (and often free) chargers specifically for the purpose of parking up and then jumping on the bus. They are obviously going to need more charging points as EV use increases. Most of the fast/rapid chargers charge you a penalty if you overstay.

Until there is a way of charging a car in the same sort of time it takes to refuel with petrol, this whole project is flawed. I do thin k that will come, but I think the technology will invalidate most current EV car designs and most of the charging network. Hence my post of a few days ago.

That is coming, 350kW CCS charging will more or less fix that problem, and is beginning to be rolled out here in the UK. Of course, only new cars will be made to use the new standards, but as I suggested earlier, there will have to be some sort of accommodation for older generation vehicles. I think that a worldwide standard for connectors and 'supercharging' has to be a good thing.

I'm not ignoring the other points, they're all fair criticisms of the systems as they stand now.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TiJazz on March 22, 2021, 09:02:02 PM
@Peteo Braintree is NOWHERE near the M25. It’s a good 40 miles away up the A120. The location makes no sense.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 22, 2021, 09:07:29 PM
25 miles, but still well away from the M25.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on March 22, 2021, 10:57:24 PM
It seems to me that the Braintree site was never intended to serve the M25. You would think that they will have done their homework, perhaps they thought that an initial site like this on the M25 would be overwhelmed - and that would surely not be good PR.

One other thing I noticed recently. I know Tesco are fitting free chargers in their car parks for customers, but Aldi is also getting in on it - a store near mum & dad's now has four free to use (slow) charging bays.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 23, 2021, 06:58:09 AM
Funding has been made available through Scottish Government’s Ultra-Low Emission Bus Scheme for £21.4m for new green buses. 22 double-deckers and 24 single-decker electric buses for Aberdeen, Kilmarnock and Perth, all built in Scotland by leading bus manufacturer ADL, with Perth and Aberdeen infrastructure provided by SSE.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on March 23, 2021, 11:20:11 AM
Sorry about the Braintree misinformation. I actually first saw this on the You Tube channel run by Renault Zoe owner Emma Jackman. She was driving along a motorway when she was talking about it and I assumed, because she is from Essex, she was travelling along the M25.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 24, 2021, 08:32:14 AM
China's biggest carmaker Geely is launching a premium electric car brand it hopes will take on Tesla. Geely said it would develop and manufacture high-end EVs under the Zeekr brand and expected to begin deliveries in the third quarter of 2021. Geely owns the Volvo and Lotus brands. Their Polestar 1 is a highly thought of EV.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on March 24, 2021, 09:20:49 AM
Oops!

https://cardealermagazine.co.uk/publish/land-rover-defender-completely-destroyed-after-major-fire-at-dick-lovett-jaguar-land-rover-dealership/219747
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on March 24, 2021, 09:27:43 AM
China's biggest carmaker Geely is launching a premium electric car brand it hopes will take on Tesla. Geely said it would develop and manufacture high-end EVs under the Zeekr brand and expected to begin deliveries in the third quarter of 2021. Geely owns the Volvo and Lotus brands. Their Polestar 1 is a highly thought of EV.

I don't think the Chinese have any intention of allowing established western car makers to run off with the electric car market. They are gearing up now, designing vehicles, and building battery and vehicle megafactories from scratch, while we are still pontificating. VW seem to be putting a marker down, but they still have their work cut out IMHO.

There's been a lot of consolidation in vehicle manufacturing in the last couple of years, and I suspect there's more to come. Any car manufacturers that don't or cannot turn over to electric soon will be swallowed up.

What's happening with JLR? There were rumours that a sale to Peugeot was almost a done deal in 2019, and then it just went quiet. They are talking about being all EV by 2025, but with vehicles that are purchased by some for their 3½ tonne towing capacity, that looks a tall order.

They will need to do a lot more than "Reimagine".

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/jaguar-land-rover-reimagined-all-big-questions-answered
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 24, 2021, 10:04:34 AM
Oops!
The Defender SE is an MHEV which means you cannot plug it in and charge it. It says it was being charged from a battery charger. Was it the drivetrain battery they were charging or the 12v vehicle battery? I would imagine that the dealers have some facility for charging the drivetrain battery that an owner wouldn't.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 24, 2021, 10:14:18 AM
but with vehicles that are purchased by some for their 3½ tonne towing capacity, that looks a tall order.
Tesla Cybertruck. 7,500+ lbs towing capacity. Supposed to be available here this year and US prices from $40,000 (24/3/21 - £29,150)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on March 24, 2021, 10:57:47 AM
but with vehicles that are purchased by some for their 3½ tonne towing capacity, that looks a tall order.
Tesla Cybertruck. 7,500+ lbs towing capacity. Supposed to be available here this year and US prices from $40,000 (24/3/21 - £29,150)

Yes, but the thing isn't anywhere near to being in production yet. There is zero chance of it being here in the UK this year, or probably next. Do you think that JLR will be able to produce a full range of similar vehices in four years time?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on March 24, 2021, 11:11:57 AM
Interesting comparisons on towing here. (I must admit I haven't watched either of the two videos through yet)
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=electric+car+vs+petrol+towing+utube&docid=608023479929667624&mid=B49F16B3E54C2B0BA5A7B49F16B3E54C2B0BA5A7&view=detail&FORM=VIRE


https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=electric+car+vs+petrol+towing+utube&&view=detail&mid=32741981891A2373BBB932741981891A2373BBB9&&FORM=VRDGAR&ru=%2Fvideos%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Delectric%2Bcar%2Bvs%2Bpetrol%2Btowing%2Butube%26%26FORM%3DVDVVXX
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on March 24, 2021, 11:25:48 AM
One of my oldest friends is Professor Phil Mawby from the University of Warwick. He is deeply involved in power electronics for vehicles and is doing projects specifically for JLR and BMW in this field. We chat about this at times but he gives few details and nothing I am allowed to share. However he is really confident about the technology.

The thing is, his technology sits between the battery (or power source) and the motors, or in the motors themselves. So where I still have my doubts is around getting the power into the vehicle and storing it.

https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/sci/wmg/mediacentre/wmgnews/?newsItem=8a1785d8785a72c801785f4c607c2685
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on March 24, 2021, 11:44:15 AM
It says it was being charged from a battery charger. Was it the drivetrain battery they were charging or the 12v vehicle battery?

I don't know, but it didn't do it any good!  ;D
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on March 24, 2021, 11:53:31 AM
So where I still have my doubts is around getting the power into the vehicle and storing it.

Yes, that's fair comment. I've said before that we are still very much in an 'early adopter' phase of this technology, and all I would add is that, at the rate things are being developed, 2030 leaves opportunities for some major advances yet.

Thanks for the linky, some interesting articles on there.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Westy36 on March 24, 2021, 02:26:23 PM
Seems a bit backwards

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/mar/18/uk-slashes-grants-for-electric-car-buyers-while-increasing-petrol-vehicle-support

Vauxhall have lowered some list prices to ensure their cars still qualify for the grant.

https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/manufacturer-news/2021/03/24/vauxhall-cuts-ev-prices-to-fit-plug-in-grant?utm_campaign=24_03_2021_FN_daily_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_content=FN%20-%20Newsletter%20-%20Daily&utm_source=adestra&utm_term=Vauxhall%20cuts%20EV%20prices%20to%20fit%20plug-in%20grant&gutid=6581

Begs the question, just how over inflated are current EV prices? For example the entry level Corsa is £15k, the Corsa E starts at £21500.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on March 24, 2021, 02:31:41 PM
Begs the question, just how over inflated are current EV prices? For example the entry level Corsa is £15k, the Corsa E starts at £21500.

Citroen have done the same with the top trim e-C4.

I'm sure there's plenty of price scalping going on, supply is barely keeping pace with demand.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 24, 2021, 03:31:57 PM
There is zero chance of it being here in the UK this year, or probably next.
According to Tesla UK, who are taking orders now, they expect the RHD version to be available here in 2021 and the "cheap" single motor RWD by the end of 2022.

https://www.tesla.com/en_gb/cybertruck/design#battery (https://www.tesla.com/en_gb/cybertruck/design#battery)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on March 24, 2021, 04:42:50 PM
There is zero chance of it being here in the UK this year, or probably next.
According to Tesla UK, who are taking orders now, they expect the RHD version to be available here in 2021 and the "cheap" single motor RWD by the end of 2022.

Quote
You will be able to complete your configuration as production nears in late 2021.

I'm pretty sure that doesn't mean that they expect it to be available here in 2021... they haven't even built the factory yet! ;)

You know me, I'm as optimistic as the next man when it comes to electric cars, I can't see it happening this side of 2022. I'm not sure that Musk's comments towards the end of last year sounded particularly promising either.

Quote
Speaking during a Q&A session at Tesla's annual Battery Day conference, Musk said that while orders for the Cybertruck are "gigantic" at well over half a million, and he predicted production capacity to be "at least 250,000 to 300,000 a year, maybe more", he also indicated the vehicle may well not make it past regulators outside the United States.

"We are designing the Cybertruck to meet the American spec," Musk said, "because if you try to design a car to meet the superset of all global requirements, it basically, you can’t make the cybertruck, it’s impossible."

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/tesla/cybertruck/96447/tesla-cybertruck-unlikely-come-uk-smaller-version-could
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TiJazz on March 24, 2021, 04:59:10 PM
Tesla delisted the Cybertruck from the UK site a while ago. We will eventually get a European truck thing, but that’s a long way off.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on April 13, 2021, 01:34:06 PM
This is the car that is going to replace the Tesla Model S for premium EV buyers.

(https://i.imgur.com/cof6RkX.jpg)

Here is a rather poorly presented (in my opinion) Fully Charged video of the first production vehicle in the UK.
I want one—only about £100K more than for the MG5.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on April 13, 2021, 02:29:21 PM
Whilst on my daily run yesterday, there was a bit more traffic around than usual. I particularly noticed the stink coming from an old diesel Corsa. Later on, three generic delivery vans and two pick up trucks from an organic soil provider passed me, all diesel, all completely no odour detectable to me. And I was running, breathing deeply and I am asthmatic.

So what is my point?

Banning ALL ICE vehicles in one go is too ambitious. There is a whole class of poorly maintained, generally older and privately owned diesel vehicles which are terrible for the environment. Get them off the roads ASAP. Newer, properly maintained and professionally driven diesel vehicles may not be the heart of the problem.

Disregarding rail freight and prioritising it rail for inter city public transport over freight seems crazy in a world where human journeys suddenly seem a lot less necessary, certainly in the world of business. Redesign HS2 as a clean freight delivery mechanism to hubs and take another look at road freight.

As far as I can see, banning the ICE is seen as some sort of magic bullet but like any bullet, it is only targeting a single problem. There is a much wider picture to look at which needs a multi-level nuanced approach.

Start by banning small engined diesel cars over a certain age.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on April 13, 2021, 03:51:34 PM
Whilst on my daily run yesterday, there was a bit more traffic around than usual. I particularly noticed the stink coming from an old diesel Corsa. Later on, three generic delivery vans and two pick up trucks from an organic soil provider passed me, all diesel, all completely no odour detectable to me. And I was running, breathing deeply and I am asthmatic.

So what is my point?

Banning ALL ICE vehicles in one go is too ambitious. There is a whole class of poorly maintained, generally older and privately owned diesel vehicles which are terrible for the environment. Get them off the roads ASAP. Newer, properly maintained and professionally driven diesel vehicles may not be the heart of the problem.

Disregarding rail freight and prioritising it rail for inter city public transport over freight seems crazy in a world where human journeys suddenly seem a lot less necessary, certainly in the world of business. Redesign HS2 as a clean freight delivery mechanism to hubs and take another look at road freight.

As far as I can see, banning the ICE is seen as some sort of magic bullet but like any bullet, it is only targeting a single problem. There is a much wider picture to look at which needs a multi-level nuanced approach.

Start by banning small engined diesel cars over a certain age.

Governments have to bring in draconian measures to make sure car makers have reason to invest in making electric cars, otherwise as I have said before, BEV are too expensive to interest  lot of people, and still have range problem.  Some makers seem to be looking at hydrogen as a cleaner alternative to existing ICE - without the range problems of BEV, but once again it will come down to hydrogen infrastructure, cost of vehicle and cost of fuel. Due to its intermittent nature wind is really more useful for producing hydrogen - look at UK gridwatch and wind has had no real presence on the grid since last Friday,  and today at one point was down to 0.2GW ( 0.5% ).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on April 13, 2021, 04:30:15 PM
There is a whole class of poorly maintained, generally older and privately owned diesel vehicles which are terrible for the environment. Get them off the roads ASAP. Newer, properly maintained and professionally driven diesel vehicles may not be the heart of the problem.

Start by banning small engined diesel cars over a certain age.
I would create the "air quality levy" as a supplement to the annual VED. Perhaps zero for Euro 6 emissions compliant and progressively increasing as the vehicle become further from the current best with diesel hit much harder than petrol. The amount of this levy would be selected to provide a strong incentive to change. Some of those smaller diesels have got very low annual VED which is an incentive to keep them so the rules have to get re-worked.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on April 13, 2021, 04:36:49 PM
Due to its intermittent nature wind is really more useful for producing hydrogen - look at UK gridwatch and wind has had no real presence on the grid since last Friday,  and today at one point was down to 0.2GW ( 0.5% ).
At other times wnd can supply an excess.
That's why development of storage - either in batteries or hydrogen or in some other form is so important
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TiJazz on April 13, 2021, 07:07:11 PM
Disregarding rail freight and prioritising it rail for inter city public transport over freight seems crazy in a world where human journeys suddenly seem a lot less necessary, certainly in the world of business. Redesign HS2 as a clean freight delivery mechanism to hubs and take another look at road freight.

HS2 will move the high speed intercity off the WCML, thus creating additional capacity for freight :)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on April 13, 2021, 08:15:44 PM
This is the car that is going to replace the Tesla Model S for premium EV buyers.
What no one has acknowledged is what a wonderful EV, the new Mercedes Benz EQS is, albeit at a premium price. 400 miles from a charge (EV Database), 250-mile Cold weather: 'worst-case' based on -10°C and use of heating.  200kW charge rate, where available, and 22kW home charging with a suitable supply.
It may be well beyond our purse, but it is no dearer than the Tesla  Model S Plaid and cheaper than the Plaid+. Personally, I'd opt for the EQS. You can only dream. Someone has to win the Euromillions.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on April 13, 2021, 10:18:29 PM
It may be well beyond our purse, but it is no dearer than the Tesla  Model S Plaid and cheaper than the Plaid+. Personally, I'd opt for the EQS. You can only dream. Someone has to win the Euromillions.
But will either fit in your garage? I want the range without having a big vehicle while still having the Jazz's internal space. Am I being too demanding?

And a 22kW home charge would blow most people's main fuse - it's the better part of 100A.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on April 14, 2021, 07:01:55 AM
When I can afford the EQS, it will easily fit in my 10-car garage. My house will also have a 3Ø supply and battery storage from my huge bank of solar panels and a generous wind turbine.   ;D

Seemingly, most houses in Germany have a supply suitable for 22kW chargers.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Westy36 on April 14, 2021, 08:55:52 AM
Banning ALL ICE vehicles in one go is too ambitious. 

As far as I can see, banning the ICE is seen as some sort of magic bullet but like any bullet, it is only targeting a single problem. There is a much wider picture to look at which needs a multi-level nuanced approach.

Start by banning small engined diesel cars over a certain age.
The car is such an easy target. Legislate to ban ICE is ill conceived. There are far worse sources of damage to our planet. Shipping for example, have you seen the stuff those cruise liners and container boats burn? Aviation, 'cheap' flights and such. Primani disposable clothing... etc etc. The car ain't great, but come on, it's just the easiest target.

Only yesterday on Radio 4, I briefly overheard reference to a Nature article and the damage caused by a common fishing method called bottom trawling. Apparently it causes potentially irreversible erosion of the sea floor and could reduce the ocean’s ability to bury carbon.

In other news, the Ford Mustang Mach-E is a prime example of the depressing future for cars. Not only will it be receiving wireless software tweaks, which sounds terrifying, it comes with an interior that looks like this:

(https://www.autocar.co.uk/sites/autocar.co.uk/files/styles/body-image/public/3_mustang_e.jpg?itok=OMibYXyf)
 :(
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on April 14, 2021, 09:25:18 AM
EQS dash.

(https://mbworld.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Mercedes-Dash-1-e1610147981654.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on April 14, 2021, 03:15:45 PM
Will the regulators catch up and require that all important controls can be operated without looking? Perhaps not since they seem to be in the pay of the car industry but the safety rating could be include whether core functions of a vehicle can be used without taking eyes off the road. Otherwise the indicator stalk will be replaced by a process of selecting the appropriate screen and then touching the appropriate indicator symbol. etc...

Honda tried moving to touch panels for the heating and ventilation controls but have now reverted to proper knobs and buttons in response to user feedback. They probably realise that it's better for road safety but wouldn't want to publicly say as much at that would imply that they have previously changed to something that was less safe.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on April 15, 2021, 08:23:18 AM
Interesting look ahead. Tesla plans a small, cheaper car for the middle of the decade.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Westy36 on April 15, 2021, 11:39:41 AM
The dash of the Merc gives me shudders. Call me a luddite, but I like a car to have dials, buttons and as much manualy operated stuff as possible!

Apple will be a very big player when they get into gear. According to this, they are close to finding that elusive partner: https://www.techradar.com/news/apple-could-be-turning-to-an-old-rival-for-its-apple-car

Press photos always make cars look brilliant, but it's easier to get a true impression of a car with regular dealer pics. Our local MG dealer has the MG5 in a lovely colour and a whopping saving. Check out the photos: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/233961557505


Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on April 15, 2021, 01:58:18 PM
The dash of the Merc gives me shudders. Call me a luddite, but I like a car to have dials, buttons and as much manualy operated stuff as possible!

Far too many distractions in vehicles, and all the 'aids' just make people lazy and inattentive. 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: springswood on April 15, 2021, 03:35:43 PM
I thought the EQS looked stunning. Admittedly Robert Llewellyn was so excited he was barely articulate but it's a thing of beauty and has genuinely great range. I was worried when he kept saying it will be expensive. Perhaps it comes from watching Top Gear but £100-120k doesn't seem bonkers. It's roughly the price of an S class. Aside from the fact that does about 32 mpg I know which is special.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on April 16, 2021, 02:21:16 PM
EQS dash.

(https://mbworld.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Mercedes-Dash-1-e1610147981654.jpg)

Certainly a very different approach to Tesla.
I had to take my wife to the dentist this morning and while waiting outside there was aTesla parked alongside me.
It looked as if the dashboard was just plain black plastic with a flat screen tele sticking out of the middle.

https://www.parkers.co.uk/tesla/model-3/review/interior/

Think I prefer a walnut fascia with dials, switches and knobs to either.

The roads were hoaching --- like rush hour at 12 o'clock. First day of removal of travel restrictions in Scotland.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on April 17, 2021, 05:48:50 PM
Enter the dragon.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesmorris/2021/01/09/chinese-electric-vehicles-to-look-out-for-in-2021/


How they compare

Xpeng P7
Guangzhou-based Xpeng is considering launching its P7 premium saloon in Europe, with downloadable updates to self-driving software.
Price 229,900 yuan in China (£25,600) Range 439 miles (according to the relatively lenient NEDC standard)

Nio ET7
A very large battery gives Nio’s saloon a long range and fast acceleration – 3.9 seconds to 62mph – as it goes up against Tesla’s Model S.
Price 448,000 yuan (£50,000) Range 621 miles (NEDC)

BYD Tang EV600
Formerly a plug-in hybrid, the battery version of the Tang SUV will be on sale in Norway this year.
Price 260,000 yuan (£28,900); Range 373 miles (NEDC)

 Nio’s big selling point is that its batteries can be swapped in minutes by robots – removing the threat of range anxiety for drivers of electric vehicles.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/apr/17/chinese-firms-prepare-to-charge-into-europes-electric-car-market
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TiJazz on April 17, 2021, 11:52:05 PM
Brits won’t touch these until they’ve proven themselves for years and a dealer network is in place. Look how long it took Kia and Hyundai to gain a foothold. MG has taken off quicker, but has largely been given a free pass because of the badge.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on April 19, 2021, 05:20:50 PM
Oh dear......

https://www.motorbiscuit.com/recall-hyundai-900-million-electric-battery-problem/
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on April 19, 2021, 08:29:23 PM
Two new entrants for the Darwin Awards 2021:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-56799749 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-56799749)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: swhull on April 19, 2021, 08:34:49 PM
Elon Musk must be proud...
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on April 19, 2021, 08:59:49 PM
Oh dear......

https://www.motorbiscuit.com/recall-hyundai-900-million-electric-battery-problem/
How accessible is the battery? Battery cell replacement isn't easy to do on a Tesla:
Perhaps Hyundai have made the battery easier to access.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on April 20, 2021, 09:49:57 AM
Elon Musk must be proud...

Well if Tesla autopilot needs lane markings to work it would rarely work round by us... and what about heavy rain and snow.   There have been crashes where lines in road disappeared and Teslas have gone into crash barriers while 'looking for the lines'..  Tesla Autopilot seems no better than a fancy cruise control,  the difference is that cruise control works.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on April 20, 2021, 09:54:57 AM
Oh dear......

https://www.motorbiscuit.com/recall-hyundai-900-million-electric-battery-problem/
How accessible is the battery? Battery cell replacement isn't easy to do on a Tesla:
Perhaps Hyundai have made the battery easier to access.

Imagine swapping out that Tesla battery at a 'battery change station' the sheer weight and size make that possibility remote,  the battery is a major part of the car.  Never mind,  a 100KW/Hr battery the size of a shoe box is in the pipeline.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TiJazz on April 20, 2021, 12:07:07 PM
Elon Musk must be proud...

Well if Tesla autopilot needs lane markings to work it would rarely work round by us... and what about heavy rain and snow.   There have been crashes where lines in road disappeared and Teslas have gone into crash barriers while 'looking for the lines'..  Tesla Autopilot seems no better than a fancy cruise control,  the difference is that cruise control works.
It doesn’t necessarily need lane lines, it can deduce drivable surfaces through road edges, path prediction based on surrounding traffic and a few other factors. The difference between Tesla AP and other systems is that the Tesla is allowed to make these educated guesses about what is drivable surface, whereas other manufacturers are more risk averse and their system just triggers a disengage in the absence of clear markings.

Of course sometimes Tesla does guess wrongly. It also has a tendency to center in the road instead of having an affinity for the left edge, which is an issue on wider two-way roads with no central markings.

Spatial awareness in non motorway settings is also lacking - although Autosteer is certified for use away from controlled-access roads as a beta product, in my 6 months with a Model 3, it managed to plough through two solid objects.

So I sent it back on a truck with bits hanging off it, and decided to wait until reliability was a bit better!

Ps. As for ACC, like most ACC on the market, Tesla ACC is basically flawless. The Honda performs just as well with edge cases such as cut ins, merge outs and stationary traffic.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on April 20, 2021, 02:44:44 PM
Ps. As for ACC, like most ACC on the market, Tesla ACC is basically flawless. The Honda performs just as well with edge cases such as cut ins, merge outs and stationary traffic.

Massive difference between adaptive cruise control and autonomous control of the vehicle - it really is a matter of life or death.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TiJazz on April 20, 2021, 06:06:12 PM
Yep - Tesla’s kill their fair share of people. A result of testing safety critical beta software in a live environment.

ACC as a mature tech has saved more lives than it cost in the early days - the same will be true of AP one day.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on April 20, 2021, 06:37:21 PM
Yep - Tesla’s kill their fair share of people. A result of testing safety critical beta software in a live environment.

ACC as a mature tech has saved more lives than it cost in the early days - the same will be true of AP one day.

Too many gimmicks in cars,  they just make drivers less attentive - a car is hardly a jet fighter where certain auto functions can take a load off the pilot in a battle environment, driving a car within the speed limit and at a safe distance from vehicle in front is easy-peasy if you are paying attention.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on April 28, 2021, 02:07:53 PM
The latest betting on Formula E is which cars will finish the race - Racing drivers with range anxiety is a new one.

extract from an article....

'I didn’t make it down to Valencia, Spain, for the weekend Formula E electric car grand prix. Long trips are more or less out of the question now in my Kona electric car, since Hyundai crippled the range of the battery pack to stop the car from bursting into flames.
Not that I missed much. On the first day five teams were disqualified for having consumed too much energy, three cars came to a stop on the track, and others limped to the finish as best they could. Formula E superstar Jean-Éric Vergne completed the last lap at an a average speed of just under 20 mph. Slower than my horse. On Sunday, the Grande Finale, most of those who had finally qualified ran out of battery charge without finishing. Jean-Éric Vergne even went as far as to blame the long stretches of straight road on the circuit, saying that electric vehicles simply weren't cut out for this sort of acceleration: 'I'm not sure that we should have gone to Valencia for racing because it doesn't look good.'
Organisers nevertheless proclaimed the event a great success.

Formula E is supposed to shine a spotlight on electric motoring as governments everywhere are encouraging motorists to abandon petrol and diesel for the joys of electrons. And this it appears to have done. A spotlight albeit unwittingly revealing. Formula E’s Covid-delayed 2021 season appears thus far to have been a farce from start to finish.'




Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on April 28, 2021, 02:19:19 PM
The same thing happens in F1 if they don't manage their fuel correctly. Mind you, Formula E is the most boring motor sport ever invented.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TiJazz on April 28, 2021, 07:37:58 PM
It’s different in person, they just do an awful job of televising it.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Westy36 on April 29, 2021, 07:28:06 AM
they just do an awful job of televising it.
Same with the WRC. I like rallying, but sadly the coverage on network TV is unwatchable. Too much time dedicated to graphics and interviews, with a few seconds of cars in the middle. 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: springswood on April 29, 2021, 07:37:38 AM
Same for extreme e. They never completely explained how it works, plus the BBC didn't have the rights to show the final which was a let down.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: embee on April 29, 2021, 10:38:14 AM
Same for extreme e. ...
Was that the one in the desert? I watched a bit, thinking it might be good. All you could see was one car and a huge plume of dust, hidden inside which were a couple of other cars who had zero visibility and hence no possibility of competing. Something of a farce, back to the drawing board (CAD screen) for that one.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on April 29, 2021, 10:55:47 AM
The same thing happens in F1 if they don't manage their fuel correctly. Mind you, Formula E is the most boring motor sport ever invented.

It's just Like F1..

But without the noise.

So you can get to sleep properly when you watch it. 8)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on April 29, 2021, 11:20:58 AM
f1 has real tracks, not back lanes round some city centre. I saw all the Extreme E including the final on BBC. Premise is good. Just no one considered that racing in sand would create dust. Rest of season could be good.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TiJazz on April 29, 2021, 12:09:13 PM
Formula E don’t have big enough batteries for real tracks - that, and their top speed is much lower so it’d look super dull.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on April 29, 2021, 02:39:37 PM
I am not talking about f1 tracks, but tracks like Knockhill, Brands Hatch, etc, which they use for Touring Cars would be much better than the Scalextric tracks they use at present.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on April 30, 2021, 06:57:34 PM
MGs new concept sports car.

(https://news.mgmotor.eu/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/MG-Cyberster-Concept-1600x900.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on May 03, 2021, 02:49:19 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/YTUcFcp.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TiJazz on May 03, 2021, 05:10:40 PM
Yes, half the point of EV is to reduce local emissions and improve air quality in our cities and towns...
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on May 03, 2021, 05:12:22 PM
and improve air quality in our cities and towns...
It certainly does - especially if you import your electricity from France.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on May 03, 2021, 05:24:58 PM
70% of France's electricity comes from nuclear.

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/energy-electricity-cross-channel-link-france-uk-power-turbines-environment-co2-153853961.html
Edit Added link
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on May 03, 2021, 05:50:02 PM
Hurrah,  3 cheers - the wind is back on UK grid after its 3 week holiday - now we can stop burning gas like it was going out of fashion.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: E27006 on May 03, 2021, 05:50:19 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/YTUcFcp.jpg)

it is not a fair like-for-like comparison between a power station and a fossil fuelled car. In an Oilwell to Wheel analysis, the crude may have travelled thousands of miles by sea, the crude will have been processed in an energy-hungry  refinery and transported to a petrol station, the car will do a poor job of neutralising the exhaust gases using the cut-price DPF and Nox trap.
The power station and distribution network will be carefully managed for energy efficiency and there will be extensive treatment systems in the chimney of the station to tackle  polluting gases
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on May 04, 2021, 05:41:06 PM
This afternoon I stumbled across a very useful video by a firm of electricians in Cambridge. They went through a list of things that needed to be in place with your home electrics before an installation of an EV could take place. To cut a long story short, our set up would need a couple of upgrades at least one of which would involve the taking out of a kitchen cupboard.

The other issue I have is the 10 metre distance between our consumer unit and where the charger would be mounted.

None of these issues are insuperable in themselves but the £350 grant wouldn't even come close to covering the installation of a home charger.

Why do I raise this? Well I think people need to do their homework BEFORE buying an EV - the installation of a charger may not be straightforward especially in a post war but not very modern property like ours. Had a brief discussion with my electrician son-in-law and he thought a minimum of £1500 would be required and more likely £2,000.

This had me thinking, given my age and the small annual mileage I do, getting an EV might be something I never actually do or, indeed, need to do.

Hard on the heels of that I listened to a podcast with Robert Llewellyn talking to Fiona Howarth, a big wig at Octopus energy. Work is already ongoing on a vehicle to grid infrastructure (only a small project at present). The basic idea is that, to avoid pressure on the grid at busy times, you plug your car in and your domestic energy derives from whatever charge is in the battery. The car gets charged at night whilst demands on the grid are minimal. Octopus already have an "agile" tariff which selects the cheapest time to charge your car.

We live in interesting times. I won't be part of the EV revolution but it's going to be a huge change.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on May 04, 2021, 06:32:58 PM
Hard on the heels of that I listened to a podcast with Robert Llewellyn talking to Fiona Howarth, a big wig at Octopus energy. Work is already ongoing on a vehicle to grid infrastructure (only a small project at present). The basic idea is that, to avoid pressure on the grid at busy times, you plug your car in and your domestic energy derives from whatever charge is in the battery. The car gets charged at night whilst demands on the grid are minimal. Octopus already have an "agile" tariff which selects the cheapest time to charge your car.
This is definitely workable. I have a Tesla Powerwall battery (13 kWh capacity) which, during the winter half of the year when there isn't much sunshine, charges from the mains between 00.30 and 04.30 using the Octopus Go EV charging tariff at 5p/kWh. The battery can then supply our power needs for the rest of the time at an effective cost of 6p/kWh after allowing for power conversion losses.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on May 04, 2021, 07:11:33 PM

Why do I raise this? Well I think people need to do their homework BEFORE buying an EV - the installation of a charger may not be straightforward especially in a post war but not very modern property like ours. Had a brief discussion with my electrician son-in-law and he thought a minimum of £1500 would be required and more likely £2,000.

This had me thinking, given my age and the small annual mileage I do, getting an EV might be something I never actually do or, indeed, need to do.


You need to do a 'payback period' check on expensive items really.   Double glazing,  how much energy does it save and how much does it cost, if you already have double glazing then fitting newer stuff will not save much, if you have single glazing then replacing it with double glazing will save you a bit, but payback is still 20 years + by which time you will probably need it replacing.  For an 'all electric house'  they reckon around £20,000 on a ground source heatpump (fairly reliable up to 4 to 5 KW of heat for every KW consumed, pretty independent of ambient temperature but heavily dependent on the ground under your house, some areas not suitable ) and up to £10,000 for airsource heatpump which give 1.5 to 3 KW of heat for every 1KW consumed - at 5deg C ambient 1.5x and at 30degC + ambient 3x - so the less you need the heat the more you get, if you have got reverse cycle at least you can cool the house I guess  :o  So payback periods are pretty long,  and then there is maintenance to pay for.  Makes a 92% efficient gas boiler at less than £2000 and 5 to 6 pence a KWh seem like a snip.

Just like you, a BEV would save me peanuts with the mileage I do nowadays, and the upfront costs are way too much.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on May 04, 2021, 07:27:48 PM
Currently looking at a Nissan Leaf near me.

(https://m.atcdn.co.uk/a/media/w800h600/dcd7b37145134581a032d001f74d99a5.jpg)

The battery is on lease £82/month or £2150 to buy. £5995.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TiJazz on May 04, 2021, 11:19:46 PM
Battery lease LEAFs shouldn’t exist any more - didn’t Nissan buy them out?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on May 05, 2021, 08:31:59 AM
didn’t Nissan buy them out?
Obviously not this one.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: hemming on May 05, 2021, 09:37:39 AM
Jocko - with regular 70 miles each way trips envisaged in the future I would be very interested to hear the results of your research and conclusions, particularly on range.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on May 05, 2021, 10:02:01 AM
I think these older Leafs are excellent second cars or even first cars if you never do more than, say, a 50 mile round trip. My issue has always been around 6 trips a year into charge point deserts.

I would charge one of these on a 3 pin plug using what they call the "granny" cable if I bought one given the extensive  upgrade required to my domestic electrics. In the video I quote above the electrician gave a decent explanation as to why you should go for a dedicated charge point which was all to do with the load you put on the system given that charging an electric car from a domestic socket is the equivalent of having an electric fire on. That would be easily manageable by only charging when other power hungry appliances were off. This would obviously be sub optimal for someone who did anything other than my very modest annual mileage.

But I'll be sticking with ICE or possibly hybrid for the rest of my driving career. A pity because I do actually fancy an EV as an interesting toy!

On EV batteries more generally there is a firm in Cheltenham that will upgrade the battery in older Leafs to 40 kwh ones from the new model. The batteries are source from cars that have been written off. £8,500 all in!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on May 05, 2021, 10:39:30 AM
Jocko - with regular 70 miles each way trips envisaged in the future I would be very interested to hear the results of your research and conclusions, particularly on range.
When I buy my EV I will be doing about 10 miles per week with the occasional 17-mile round trip to my step-daughters. Most I will ever do is a 70-mile round trip a couple of times each summer.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on May 05, 2021, 10:48:55 AM
At £6 per gallon and 50mpg - equivalent cost of petrol

£82 lease fee = 14 gallons of petrol which is 700 miles per month or 8400 miles per year.

£2150 to buy= 360 gallons  = 18,000 miles total

Added to this is cost of electricity still required to charge the battery,  about 6 pence per mile at normal rates per KWh.

A petrol car doing 50mpg is about 11.5 pence per mile, so 'saving' of 5  to 6 pence per mile.... with diesel the 'savings' are even lee impressive,  maybe 3 pence per mile.  This ignores the existence of a dedicated home charger ( £2000 installation cost less £400 grant ) or a 'power wall' ( £10,000 + solar panel cost ).

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on May 05, 2021, 11:10:20 AM
The cost doesn't come into it. I want to drive electric. If I like the Leaf, I'll buy the lease out. The house is getting rewired so I will have a dedicated external socket installed and use the Granny cable. I'll only be driving every third or fourth day.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on May 05, 2021, 11:12:12 AM
We will probably be installing solar panels anyway.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on May 05, 2021, 11:14:40 AM
I looked briefly at smart meters - particularly gas meters - and EV charging.

Our house was built in the 1820s. The external walls are local millstone grit with flint intrusions and vary between 60cm and 1.25meters wide in parts. Drilling holes in them requires lost of power, a BIG drill and flint destroys bits..so installing new electrical or gas systems is very costly and time consuming.

We have two consumer units: one for the main house and one for the extension/garage. Both would need replacing and rewiring for EV charging apart from a 13A one.

Our gas meter is in a stone box on an outside wall and would need a new electricity supply for a smart meter - drilling through at least one external wall and one internal.

I would estimate putting a new charger for an EV in our garage would probably cost between £3 to £5k .
(And a gas smart meter £2-£3k).

It is not going to happen.

I suspect many other owners of old houses may face the same problems.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on May 05, 2021, 11:28:33 AM
No supply is required for an external gas meter. The smart meter has a long-life battery and in our case communicates wirelessly with the unit attached to the consumer unit. My problem is the electricity smart meter doesn't communicate with British Gas though the gas meter does! It is currently PAYG but will need to be changed when we move in. Hopefully, that will sort the current issue.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on May 05, 2021, 11:47:49 AM
The cost doesn't come into it. I want to drive electric. If I like the Leaf, I'll buy the lease out. The house is getting rewired so I will have a dedicated external socket installed and use the Granny cable. I'll only be driving every third or fourth day.

A LEAF 24 or 30 with decent battery health will suit you down to the ground. The other thing is you'll be able to follow a sympathetic charging regime (between 20 and 80% with only occasional rapid charge).

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: E27006 on May 05, 2021, 02:34:50 PM
At £6 per gallon and 50mpg - equivalent cost of petrol

£82 lease fee = 14 gallons of petrol which is 700 miles per month or 8400 miles per year.

£2150 to buy= 360 gallons  = 18,000 miles total

Added to this is cost of electricity still required to charge the battery,  about 6 pence per mile at normal rates per KWh.

A petrol car doing 50mpg is about 11.5 pence per mile, so 'saving' of 5  to 6 pence per mile.... with diesel the 'savings' are even lee impressive,  maybe 3 pence per mile.  This ignores the existence of a dedicated home charger ( £2000 installation cost less £400 grant ) or a 'power wall' ( £10,000 + solar panel cost ).
In addition is  the lease option payment  an insurance policy for the batteries in case of degradation or outright failure?
Where the lease contract protects  the driver from  a possibly  expensive bill.
If the battery is purchased and owned outright, is there  warranty coverage on the batteries?
Or does the owner have to fund repairs to the batteries?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on May 05, 2021, 04:40:46 PM
The idea of the lease is they replace the battery if it drops below a certain level.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TiJazz on May 05, 2021, 07:48:06 PM
This has never happened.

Buy a non-Flex Leaf. There’s a reason Flex ones don’t really exist anymore.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on May 05, 2021, 09:28:40 PM
Our gas meter is in a stone box on an outside wall and would need a new electricity supply for a smart meter - drilling through at least one external wall and one internal.

As already noted, the gas meter uses a long-life battery. However, I suspect the problem will be that the signal from the gas meter won't get through a stone wall to the electricity meter.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on May 05, 2021, 10:13:53 PM
Buy a non-Flex Leaf. There’s a reason Flex ones don’t really exist anymore.
The car I am looking at is a beautiful example, low miles, full battery bars and a private sale. Buying out the lease would still make it considerably cheaper than a similar vehicle, without a battery lease, from a trader. Hence my giving it consideration.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: springswood on May 06, 2021, 08:37:35 AM
Looks like a good buy to me, especially buying the batteries outright. I'd be tempted myself if I could fit all the dog I need into it, sadly not. Like you I'd be happy to pay to go electric. I might have to wait until that MG estate filters through to the second hand market.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on May 06, 2021, 08:44:17 AM
Our gas meter is in a stone box on an outside wall and would need a new electricity supply for a smart meter - drilling through at least one external wall and one internal.

As already noted, the gas meter uses a long-life battery. However, I suspect the problem will be that the signal from the gas meter won't get through a stone wall to the electricity meter.

We have problems with internal wifi - if we don't leave doors open signal gets lost very quickly and we have to use boosters - or leave every house door open .  :o

To get to the electricity meter from the gas meter = two outside walls (house has been extended a bit over the centuries) - so your supposition is likely correct!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on May 06, 2021, 09:46:15 AM

We have problems with internal wifi - if we don't leave doors open signal gets lost very quickly and we have to use boosters - or leave every house door open .  :o

To get to the electricity meter from the gas meter = two outside walls (house has been extended a bit over the centuries) - so your supposition is likely correct!

It is amazing how many things can block wi-fi   

https://www.signalbooster.com/blogs/news/how-much-which-building-materials-block-cellular-wifi-signals

I was experimenting with a microwave ( doppler radar ) type sensor - it can detect movement on the other side of wooden doors and even brick walls also through a ceiling into the room below - but when I tried it through our double glazed windows - even with the sensor right next to the window inside the house I could not get it to detect movement outside the glass,  seems many modern window glasses are coated with a very thin ( microns ) metallic layer to stop infra red heat escaping the house.  Liquids also readily absorb radio waves, so if walls are damp that will increase their attenuation of signals.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on May 06, 2021, 10:33:40 AM
Buy a non-Flex Leaf. There’s a reason Flex ones don’t really exist anymore.
The car I am looking at is a beautiful example, low miles, full battery bars and a private sale. Buying out the lease would still make it considerably cheaper than a similar vehicle, without a battery lease, from a trader. Hence my giving it consideration.

Yes - a good plan. I'm actually jealous because I want to go electric but it's these darn 6 or so trips a year that make it problematic to get an EV alongside the electrical modifications needed. My pal's 2014 Leaf still has all 12 bars although he reckons he might lose a bar soon. He will have 85% state of health on a seven year old car. He's seriously considering getting the 40 kwh upgrade. £8,500 seems a lot but he reckons it would see him out! I did ask him what range he was getting now and he reckons 75 to 80 in the summer down to 60 to 65 in the winter. He has got 100 miles on a charge when the car was newer using hypermiling techniques.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on May 06, 2021, 01:42:09 PM
Went for a test drive this morning and the car is beautiful. It is in Concours condition and drives like a new car. The owner said that he drives it almost exclusively in and around Edinburgh and regularly achieves 100 miles between charges. When we got out my wife told me "No. I don't like the look of it.". Hey ho. Time to look for something else.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on May 06, 2021, 02:00:33 PM
Yep - the first generation Leafs had looks only a mother could love. Just been watching a "CarWow" reliability rating video. The old Leaf came in at a very respectable 7th. The Jazz was number 2 though beaten only a Lexus.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on May 09, 2021, 09:45:33 AM
Scientists have found pollen and seeds, and animal bones on Baffin Island that proves the area was at least 5 degC warmer than it is today. Wonder if Greta Thunberg has been told ?

https://nunatsiaq.com/stories/article/ancient-plant-dna-and-pollen-found-intact-under-baffin-island-lake/

Also grapes used to grow in Vinland on East coast of Canada - The Vikings found them

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinland
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on May 09, 2021, 09:53:59 AM
The medieval warming period.

"The Medieval climate anomaly
This Medieval period of warming, also known as the Medieval climate anomaly, was associated with an unusual temperature rise roughly between 750 and 1350 AD (the European Middle Ages). The available evidence suggests that at times, some regions experienced temperatures exceeding those recorded during the period between 1960 and 1990.

Despite being predominantly recorded in Europe, south-western North America and in some tropical regions, the Medieval warm period affected both the northern and southern hemispheres. But the temperature increase was not universal, varying across regions of the world, and did not happen simultaneously everywhere.

While the northern hemisphere, South America, China and Australasia, and even New Zealand, recorded temperatures of 0.3-1.0 ℃ higher than those of 1960-1990 between the early ninth and late 14th centuries, in other areas such as the eastern tropical Pacific Ocean, it was much cooler than today.

Mechanisms driving the Medieval warm period
The Medieval warm period was by and large a regional event. Its presence or absence reflects a redistribution of heat around the planet, and this suggests drivers other than a global increase in atmospheric greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide.

The most likely cause of the regional changes in temperature was related to a modification of the El Ni񯖓outhern Oscillation.


https://theconversation.com/climate-explained-what-was-the-medieval-warm-period-155294#:~:text=This%20Medieval%20period%20of%20warming,(the%20European%20Middle%20Ages).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TiJazz on May 09, 2021, 12:46:11 PM
As a species we’ve been on this earth for such a short period of time, that small variations will seem huge to us.

I’m not sure if we actually have any meaningful influence over macro, planet scale events.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on May 09, 2021, 03:56:33 PM
The Piri Reis map supposedly shows Antarctica without ice. A recent US survey through the ice apparently confirms the presence of the rivers shown on the Piri Reis map. Strange.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest4871 on May 09, 2021, 05:05:42 PM
As a species we’ve been on this earth for such a short period of time, that small variations will seem huge to us.

I’m not sure if we actually have any meaningful influence over macro, planet scale events.

+1
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: E27006 on May 09, 2021, 05:07:16 PM
I have a Honda Insight hybrid, mainly   IC, part electric, which is 20 years old and has recently required a new traction battery,  the battery replacement cost is therefore a reasonable  £115 per year of service, money more than recouped by £0 VED tax  and exceptional mpg returns of the car, 40 mpg more than even a Jazz.
I am very wary of being an early adopter of the full EV, they are so expensive in relation to their utility of range and above all else their potential for massive depreciation. I am reminded of the lemming like dash for digital cameras in the late 1990s.  Cameras enthusiasts disposing of (essentially throwing away)  high quality SLR film cameras for £100 and buying £500 digital cameras, those £500 digital cameras simply not good enough in a technical sense, images no better than modest point and click pocket film cameras for £30. Those £500 digital camera were very soon worthless. 
By the same thinking,  I would not go out and spend £35000 on a full EV when i can have a new  2021 Jazz SE for £19500, I would wait 10 to 15 years (the typical life of a Jazz) and see how the EV advances in range and price. I am satisfied with the economics of my hybrid car ,  but the sums for a full EV  purchase do not add up for the present or the foreseeable future
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TiJazz on May 09, 2021, 09:27:27 PM
I had an Uber ride in an Insight recently. I’d seen them, but never been in one before. Very retro-cool.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: springswood on May 10, 2021, 08:58:06 AM
As a species we’ve been on this earth for such a short period of time, that small variations will seem huge to us.

I’m not sure if we actually have any meaningful influence over macro, planet scale events.

I know, it's staggering. It's worth considering though that people didn't just make this stuff up. You got me looking online and from bubbles trapped in antarctic ice we have records of atmospheric CO2 going back 800,000 years. It had never gone above 300 parts per million until 1950. I've attached the graph because it's so striking. And if you look at the ratio of carbon 14 to carbon 12 the extra carbon has come from fossil fuels.
https://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/ (https://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/)

I don't like labouring this but unfortunately multibillion pound industries have a history of sewing doubt when their profits are under threat. As with smoking and cancer or lead in petrol.
https://tunein.com/podcasts/History-Podcasts/Cautionary-Tales-p1258875/?topicId=157339655 (https://tunein.com/podcasts/History-Podcasts/Cautionary-Tales-p1258875/?topicId=157339655)
 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TiJazz on May 10, 2021, 01:47:05 PM
I’m all for a viable alternative to fossil fuel- I think the immediate benefits we’ll see are in sustainability and air quality, which are well worth it :)

Like I said earlier, I had 3 EVs before the Jazz and would still have one if it was easier to plug the things in
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: E27006 on May 11, 2021, 07:47:13 AM
I had an Uber ride in an Insight recently. I’d seen them, but never been in one before. Very retro-cool.

That would be the 2009 Insight,  5-door hatchback, when new a poor seller in the UK, however they enjoyed a boom as used cars  they are seen in use in  London as taxis, although not in the numbers of the Prius.

The 2000 to 2006 Insight is an aerodynamic  2-seat coupe with a similarity  to certain cars such as the Porsche 911.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: springswood on May 11, 2021, 07:57:03 AM
I'll try looking at the later Insight as retro-cool, it's on my list of potential next cars.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TiJazz on May 11, 2021, 05:53:16 PM
Honda made some crazy stuff in the early 2000s. My neighbour has a CR-Z - probably the kind of thing I would have bought in 2010 had I not been a poor graduate.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: swhull on May 11, 2021, 07:22:06 PM
Honda made some crazy stuff in the early 2000s. My neighbour has a CR-Z - probably the kind of thing I would have bought in 2010 had I not been a poor graduate.

There’s a CR-Z on the business park where I work, it’s definitely different looking… no idea what they’re like to own and drive.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on May 11, 2021, 08:06:27 PM
A guy who used to work beside me had a CRX with the registration number H15 CRX.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: E27006 on May 11, 2021, 08:54:21 PM
Honda made some crazy stuff in the early 2000s. My neighbour has a CR-Z - probably the kind of thing I would have bought in 2010 had I not been a poor graduate.

There’s a CR-Z on the business park where I work, it’s definitely different looking… no idea what they’re like to own and drive.
The battery pack is trouble-free, and the hybrid drive is over-engineered, so a used CRZ may be a decent S?H purchase
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on May 13, 2021, 09:46:47 AM
New Lead - carbon batteries look promising, still heavier than Li-Ion but with many advantages and a big advance on conventional lead-acid. Obviously lead batteries are easy to recycle.

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/new_lead_acid_systems

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: E27006 on May 14, 2021, 11:58:19 AM
I wonder how the real cost of the charging compares with petrol? A 100kWh battery would cost £15 to £20 to fully charge at current domestic tariffs. Free / subsidised charging will disappear as the number of electric vehicles increases.

Hybrid has a lot of potential as (i) there's the recovery of energy lost to braking and (ii) it allows the engine to spend more of its time operating under the most efficient conditions. Honda's Mk 2 Jazz hybrid was a bit half baked as both the battery (a heavy lead acid lump) and motor/generator were of limited capacity. A hybrid version of the Mk 3 Jazz is sold in some parts of the world but not here.

Are you sure about the lead acid traction battery?  Honda used exclusively  Nickel Metal hydride batteries, then Lithium ion starting with the CRZ, though early CRz cars had  Nickel metal hydride
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: springswood on May 15, 2021, 08:38:19 AM
I've seen a Japanese import of one of the Mk3 hybrid Jazzes (actually a Fit) on AutoTrader. The mpg and power figures looked good. I wonder how problematical servicing, repairs and parts in the UK would be as I'm quite tempted.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on May 19, 2021, 06:10:22 AM
"UK 'lacks clear plan' to phase out petrol and diesel cars as charge points remain a postcode lottery
Some local authorities, particularly in London, are well-served with charge points but others are falling behind."

https://news.sky.com/story/uk-lacks-clear-plan-to-phase-out-petrol-and-diesel-cars-as-charge-points-remain-a-postcode-lottery-12310366
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: swhull on May 19, 2021, 06:31:51 AM
Your average person with no off street parking and used to buying used cars under a few grand isn’t going to be rushing to go electric anytime soon. It’s a bit pie in the sky this 2030 target, let’s hit the motorist and never mind aviation or shipping, their fossil fuel consumption is acceptable. The amount of on street charging points needed is going to be bonkers, never going to happen, will take a hundred years to get the infrastructure in place. People can’t afford to make the switch, and add to that the gas boiler ban they talk about, that’s more cost to homeowners, not everyone has a spare 20 grand down the back of their financed scs sofa.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on May 19, 2021, 09:40:18 AM
"UK 'lacks clear plan'

Nuff said.

Fear not, the blond Baldrick will come up with another three word slogan.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on May 19, 2021, 10:24:19 AM
"UK 'lacks clear plan'

Nuff said.

Fear not, the blond Baldrick will come up with another three word slogan.

I think the cunning plan is that currently-unproven technology will magically solve the problem, therefore BoJo won't have to actually do anything apart from claim the credit. For example:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jan/19/electric-car-batteries-race-ahead-with-five-minute-charging-times
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest4871 on May 19, 2021, 10:42:01 AM
I have worked out that I contribute one hundredth million of one percent to CO2 emissions and I am being asked to make that fifty millionth of one percent.

To do that I have, at least, to eat flies to "save the planet".

Is that a world really worth anyone living in?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kenneve on May 19, 2021, 10:49:35 AM
My Mk4 Jazz has a electric motor rated at 80Kw.
Honda quote the battery voltage as 173 volts, so the current required for that power output amounts to 462 amps. (unless I've got it wrong)
Now I know the average battery capacity of an E-car is in the order of 35-40Kw.
If they are going to be fully charged in 5 min, then what sort of current is required?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on May 19, 2021, 11:02:12 AM
All electric cars charging in 5 minutes on a Friday night will cause patrts of  the Grid to shutdown for its own safety.Especially before Bank Holidays.

And then take two days to reset as many chargers will be left connected.

Oh that's why we have Smart Meters..just disconnect the areas with fast chargers.
(London goes dark)  :P
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on May 19, 2021, 11:11:30 AM
I have worked out that I contribute one hundredth million of one percent to CO2 emissions and I am being asked to make that fifty millionth of one percent.

To do that I have, at least, to eat flies to "save the planet".

Is that a world really worth anyone living in?

Could you show your working please?

I would think it would be relatively easy for people in the western world to cut their carbon footprint in half without undue hardship. Not so for those in third world countries.

Edit Added last paragraph.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: springswood on May 19, 2021, 11:51:27 AM
My Mk4 Jazz has a electric motor rated at 80Kw.
Honda quote the battery voltage as 173 volts, so the current required for that power output amounts to 462 amps. (unless I've got it wrong)
Now I know the average battery capacity of an E-car is in the order of 35-40Kw.
If they are going to be fully charged in 5 min, then what sort of current is required?

That calculation looks right to me.
For charging at 173 volts in 5 minutes I get it to 4,600 amps. 500 volts gives 1,600 amps. Scary  ???
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on May 19, 2021, 12:01:12 PM
"UK 'lacks clear plan'

Nuff said.

Fear not, the blond Baldrick will come up with another three word slogan.

I think the cunning plan is that currently-unproven technology will magically solve the problem, therefore BoJo won't have to actually do anything apart from claim the credit. For example:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jan/19/electric-car-batteries-race-ahead-with-five-minute-charging-times

The technology to solve all the problems is always 'just around the corner' - trouble is when you get to that corner there is nothing there, so you wait for the next corner---- ad infinitum. Politicians are good at making vast expansive claims ( or should that be vastly expensive ? ) without blinking, often their thought process is no deeper than the average carpark puddle.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest4871 on May 19, 2021, 03:42:04 PM
I have worked out that I contribute one hundredth million of one percent to CO2 emissions and I am being asked to make that fifty millionth of one percent.

To do that I have, at least, to eat flies to "save the planet".

Is that a world really worth anyone living in?

Could you show your working please?

I would think it would be relatively easy for people in the western world to cut their carbon footprint in half without undue hardship. Not so for those in third world countries.

Edit Added last paragraph.

United Kingdom percentage of world CO2 emissions = 1.1%

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/uk-and-global-emissions-and-temperature-trends/

United Kingdom population = 68 million

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationestimates/articles/overviewoftheukpopulation/january2021

Each person in the United Kingdom therefore emits 68 millionths of 1.1% of the world's CO2 emissions.

Adjust for your individual lifestyle, eg travel by car or air, central heating temperature settings, consummation of red meat, you know the rest, etc, etc.

I am a low consumer of all these things.

QED









Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on May 19, 2021, 07:28:12 PM
I have worked out that I contribute one hundredth million of one percent to CO2 emissions and I am being asked to make that fifty millionth of one percent.

To do that I have, at least, to eat flies to "save the planet".

Is that a world really worth anyone living in?

Could you show your working please?

I would think it would be relatively easy for people in the western world to cut their carbon footprint in half without undue hardship. Not so for those in third world countries.

Edit Added last paragraph.

United Kingdom percentage of world CO2 emissions = 1.1%

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/uk-and-global-emissions-and-temperature-trends/

United Kingdom population = 68 million

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationestimates/articles/overviewoftheukpopulation/january2021

Each person in the United Kingdom therefore emits 68 millionths of 1.1% of the world's CO2 emissions.

Adjust for your individual lifestyle, eg travel by car or air, central heating temperature settings, consummation of red meat, you know the rest, etc, etc.

I am a low consumer of all these things.

QED



Er,
You'll be pleased to learn that your contribution to global carbon dioxide is much less than you calculated.

By your figures
United Kingdom percentage of world CO2 emissions = 1.1%
United Kingdom population = 68 million
 Therefore each person in Britain contributes 1.1/68000000% not  1.1X68/1000000%

I would also be interested in how you determined that halving your already modest contribution would result in your having to eat flies.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: nowster on May 20, 2021, 08:48:06 AM
It's all pie in the sky without a significant increase in electricity generation and distribution capacity, just like switching to all electric heating. These focus groups don't consider that aspect.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on May 20, 2021, 12:36:23 PM
Fear not, the blond Baldrick will come up with another three word slogan.

I predict is will be 'I'm alright jack'.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on May 22, 2021, 08:35:48 PM
No wonder China is laughing - they will sell the west electric vehicles manufactured using coal fired power, then laugh while stupid pinkie struggles to charge it...

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2021/05/03/china-renewable-energy-intermittent-and-unstable-we-must-rely-on-a-stable-power-source/
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on May 23, 2021, 12:10:49 PM
I've watched 2 interesting you tube clips from two early adopters and influencers as they say. The first was from EV Opinion. This is the second video in which he has slammed the UK charging infrastructure. He concludes that he could not recommend an EV to anybody who needed to use the UK charging network regularly. He remains an EV enthusiast so this opinion carries weight with me.

The other You Tuber to weigh in on this was EVM (Electric Vehicle Man formerly Electric Leaf Man). His video was a rant about the still shockingly poor state of the UK charging network. A key gripe was the failure of Charging Companies to repair broken chargers.

Add that to the fact that, if you purchase a Nissan or (I think) a Mitsubishi, you are going to find that the Chademo charging system is tipped, indeed already is, going the way of Betamax which will mean you won't be able to rapid charge at many outlets in the future.

So, there you have it, 2 EV alumni are virtually advising those who would rely, to any great extent, on the charging network as it stands to stay clear of EVs at this time.

Completely different arguments apply if you only venture outside the range of your car on occasions and/or you use an EV as a second car.

It's going to be a very long time before EVs become the norm. The best estimate for EVs is that, by 2030, there will be around 10 million on the roads as compared to over 21 million ICE vehicles. I think dinosaur juice will be available for some considerable time.

I still hanker for an EV but using head as opposed to heart, not anytime soon.

PS

Just to add, my daughter got her friend's electrician husband to quote for the installation of a charge point in her 1920s house. £2,500 was quoted - the grant would barely touch the sides. On top of that another £3,000 to convert her small front garden into off road parking.



 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TiJazz on May 23, 2021, 12:54:35 PM
Completely true. Binned my EV as soon as my apartment charger stopped working because I know what a mug’s game it is to own one without home charging (as I did with my first Zoe).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on May 23, 2021, 02:37:52 PM
I've decided against the MG5. Read too many issues. Still fancy an EV though. Mk 4 Jazz high on the list too.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on May 23, 2021, 05:54:17 PM
There's also the Honda e, or did that get vetoed by SWAMBO? There are a few ex-demonstrators available including a couple near you https://usedcars.honda.co.uk/en/used-cars/approved-cars/all-brands/all-models?country=gb&unitSystem=imperial&currency=GBP&currentSearch=honda&manufacturer=21&price_type_switch=price&model=3231&zip=BS0+1ZZ&radius=5000&warrantyProgram=22&sort=price:ASC#result-tools-top . still, however, significantly more expensive than an ex-demonstrator Mk 4 Jazz.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on May 23, 2021, 06:16:52 PM
She said she would have to wear a blindfold to avoid the dashboard and that would make her sick!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: swhull on May 23, 2021, 06:34:28 PM
I’d be great to be able to have an EV and for it to be easy to charge at home and wherever you want to go, but I just think it’s going to take decades for it to be a practical choice for people. If the rest of the world had the same ambitions as our government then it’d make a bit more sense than it does at the moment. When are India and China banning ICE? Probably never.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on May 23, 2021, 07:51:05 PM
China is at the forefront of EV sales and manufacture.

The direction of travel was underlined by President Xi Jinping at the United Nations last September, when he pledged to cut China’s carbon dioxide emissions to nearly zero by 2060. Low-emissions transport, including EVs, will be one of the strategic industries helping the country achieve its climate goals.

2020 also saw policy updates that will accelerate the adoption of EVs, even as vehicle price subsidies are phased out. Beginning this year, mandatory emission quotas for internal combustion engines (ICE) and EVs are being tightened to help EVs reach 20% of new car sales by 2025; this equates to around 6 million units a year, from 1.3 million in 2020.

A decade later, by 2035, EVs are expected to account for 50% of all new car sales, according to the government’s ‘Energy-saving and New Energy Vehicle Technology Roadmap 2.0’.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: swhull on May 23, 2021, 08:16:53 PM
China is at the forefront of EV sales and manufacture.

The direction of travel was underlined by President Xi Jinping at the United Nations last September, when he pledged to cut China’s carbon dioxide emissions to nearly zero by 2060. Low-emissions transport, including EVs, will be one of the strategic industries helping the country achieve its climate goals.

2020 also saw policy updates that will accelerate the adoption of EVs, even as vehicle price subsidies are phased out. Beginning this year, mandatory emission quotas for internal combustion engines (ICE) and EVs are being tightened to help EVs reach 20% of new car sales by 2025; this equates to around 6 million units a year, from 1.3 million in 2020.

A decade later, by 2035, EVs are expected to account for 50% of all new car sales, according to the government’s ‘Energy-saving and New Energy Vehicle Technology Roadmap 2.0’.


Communists and their quotas… I’m sure it’ll all end well
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: E27006 on May 23, 2021, 10:47:23 PM
We are trading away or undermining our energy security as a consequence of green thinking, the energy security of the country has been historically  very high with natural gas , North Sea oil and coal under our control. So secure were  our energy sources, that during the coal miners strike of the early 1980s , the country was energy-secure for a year without any detriment, the country had a 12 month stockpile of coal, I cannot see that today, coal-fired power  generated electricity, probably the cheapest method, is replaced by electricity imported from France,  solar power which has the least availability when our needs  are  greatest,  and we import so much motor  fuel , especially diesel, as we allowed our refineries to close. I support green measures, but when we depend on others, it leads to international  war
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on May 24, 2021, 05:54:47 AM
Fully agree, we are allowing our industries to be foreign owned, presumably for a quick fix buck.

Thatcher sold off council houses and now look where we are with social housing.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on May 24, 2021, 07:59:08 AM
We are trading away or undermining our energy security as a consequence of green thinking, the energy security of the country has been historically  very high with natural gas , North Sea oil and coal under our control. So secure were  our energy sources, that during the coal miners strike of the early 1980s , the country was energy-secure for a year without any detriment, the country had a 12 month stockpile of coal, I cannot see that today, coal-fired power  generated electricity, probably the cheapest method, is replaced by electricity imported from France,  solar power which has the least availability when our needs  are  greatest,  and we import so much motor  fuel , especially diesel, as we allowed our refineries to close. I support green measures, but when we depend on others, it leads to international  war


Have attached a PDF with a couple of graphs from gridwatch site,  is this the kind of 'reliability'  we can use to run a country ?  You will note that during the coldest months in UK ( October to March ) the solar almost disappears.  Wind just shows up and goes AWOL when it feels like it.  Without the 'quick reaction'  Gas turbine generators we would be having regular 'power outages' in UK,  as bad as any third world country.  The telling phrase in my previous post about China carrying on with coal was 'there are a lot of engineers in Chinese government capable of doing simple calculations'..... and the UK government ? Lawyers and accountants....

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on May 24, 2021, 10:52:42 AM
That said there will be "work arounds" in the future including battery storage and, controversially, nuclear (which we already have). We absolutely should not be burning coal.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: nowster on May 24, 2021, 11:29:21 AM
That said there will be "work arounds" in the future including battery storage and, controversially, nuclear (which we already have). We absolutely should not be burning coal.

The UK's nuclear generating capacity has been declining gradually over the last decade or two as the original Magnox reactors reached their design lifetimes and were retired. Building new ones is expensive (without the rush to produce weapons material as a side product) and several contracts have fallen through.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on May 24, 2021, 11:32:50 AM
We are trading away or undermining our energy security as a consequence of green thinking, the energy security of the country has been historically  very high with natural gas , North Sea oil and coal under our control. So secure were  our energy sources, that during the coal miners strike of the early 1980s , the country was energy-secure for a year without any detriment, the country had a 12 month stockpile of coal, I cannot see that today, coal-fired power  generated electricity, probably the cheapest method, is replaced by electricity imported from France,  solar power which has the least availability when our needs  are  greatest,  and we import so much motor  fuel , especially diesel, as we allowed our refineries to close. I support green measures, but when we depend on others, it leads to international  war


"Historically " will not give us energy now.
We had high stocks of coal in the 80s because Thatcher wanted to have a reserve of coal for the impending miners' strikes and avoid the power cuts and three day weeks  of the 70s which brought down Heath's government.
https://www.mylearning.org/stories/police-protests-and-public-order/932

We still have supplies of coal oil and natural gas but it is best left underground.
As well as the damage to the environment burning it would do, the pits have been closed, allowed to flood, machinery left to rust, miners dead or too old to work.
Oil fields are being decommissioned. New supplies becoming increasingly inaccessible.

Fully agree, we are allowing our industries to be foreign owned, presumably for a quick fix buck.

Thatcher sold off council houses and now look where we are with social housing.

UK governments have also sold off the profits from North Sea oil instead of investing them in an energy fund like the Norwegians.
It's what the Tories do.
Yet people still keep voting for them.



Have attached a PDF with a couple of graphs from gridwatch site,  is this the kind of 'reliability'  we can use to run a country ?  You will note that during the coldest months in UK ( October to March ) the solar almost disappears.  Wind just shows up and goes AWOL when it feels like it.  Without the 'quick reaction'  Gas turbine generators we would be having regular 'power outages' in UK,  as bad as any third world country.  The telling phrase in my previous post about China carrying on with coal was 'there are a lot of engineers in Chinese government capable of doing simple calculations'.....

What we need is storage for the renewables

and the UK government ? Lawyers and accountants....

Liars , cheats and charlatans
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on May 24, 2021, 12:39:18 PM
The people working on the small modular reactors claim to be making progress https://www.rolls-royce.com/media/press-releases/2021/17-05-2021-more-power-and-updated-design-revealed-as-nuclear-power-team-targets-first-place.aspx and are targeting an energy cost similar to offshore wind (£50/MWhr = 5p/kWhr). However, if the cost of backup sources was charged against wind generation then it wouldn't be so cheap.

It appears that there's a plan to spend £300M to install 3,550 additional EV chargers https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57225856. That's about about £85k each.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on May 24, 2021, 01:05:41 PM
Liars , cheats and charlatans

Not a nice thing to say about SNP
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on May 24, 2021, 02:05:14 PM
Liars , cheats and charlatans

Not a nice thing to say about SNP
Who mentioned SNP?

..... and the UK government ? Lawyers and accountants....


Careful or you'll get us shut down and there's a lot still to be said about electric cars.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on May 24, 2021, 03:08:22 PM
Saw a TV article on extraction of lithium from mica from granite for batteries.

https://cornishstuff.com/2019/09/17/lithium/

Alternatively, if there's any future in aluminium/ graphene batteries there must be a lot of aluminium in Cornish clay.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltaylor/2021/05/13/ev-range-breakthrough-as-new-aluminum-ion-battery-charges-60-times-faster-than-lithium-ion/?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on May 25, 2021, 12:30:29 PM
https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltaylor/2021/05/13/ev-range-breakthrough-as-new-aluminum-ion-battery-charges-60-times-faster-than-lithium-ion/?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB

Developments like the above, and below, point the way to a new way of designing vehicles and journeys. The problem is still in generating the energy in the first place though, and getting it to where it is needed.

Charge as you drive...
https://innovationorigins.com/en/first-charging-highway-for-electric-vehicles-is-coming-to-italy/
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: nowster on May 25, 2021, 12:43:34 PM
Charge as you drive...
https://innovationorigins.com/en/first-charging-highway-for-electric-vehicles-is-coming-to-italy/
For a moment I was expecting Scalextric type slots in the road.  ;D
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on May 25, 2021, 02:03:21 PM
Charge as you drive...
https://innovationorigins.com/en/first-charging-highway-for-electric-vehicles-is-coming-to-italy/

Inductive charging,  even when the coils are right next to each other is very inefficient - and the larger the air gap and the more misaligned the coils the worse it gets. This lack of efficiency is bad enough on a toothbrush or phone ( although the losses still add up to a large amount of wasted power across a lot of users ) but on the scale needed to charge a vehicle - well the lack of efficiency would add up to a whole lot more wasted power. Is the electricity from the road free? How to bill users for power consumed is another thing.

https://debugger.medium.com/wireless-charging-is-a-disaster-waiting-to-happen-48afdde70ed9
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on May 25, 2021, 02:16:54 PM
Inductive charging,  even when the coils are right next to each other is very inefficient - and the larger the air gap and the more misaligned the coils the worse it gets. This lack of efficiency is bad enough on a toothbrush or phone ( although the losses still add up to a large amount of wasted power across a lot of users ) but on the scale needed to charge a vehicle - well the lack of efficiency would add up to a whole lot more wasted power. Is the electricity from the road free? How to bill users for power consumed is another thing.

Did you read the article? Think you might have skimmed it as I think it deals with your questions.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on May 25, 2021, 02:30:00 PM
Inductive charging,  even when the coils are right next to each other is very inefficient - and the larger the air gap and the more misaligned the coils the worse it gets. This lack of efficiency is bad enough on a toothbrush or phone ( although the losses still add up to a large amount of wasted power across a lot of users ) but on the scale needed to charge a vehicle - well the lack of efficiency would add up to a whole lot more wasted power. Is the electricity from the road free? How to bill users for power consumed is another thing.

Did you read the article? Think you might have skimmed it as I think it deals with your questions.

Where did it answer questions in body of article - I didn't follow any links.  Imagine the sheer cost of rolling this out ( is every road going to be a toll road in future ) - the closer the coils are to surface of the road the more efficient it would be LOL, but would they need to be replaced every time the road gets resurfaced,  what is the effect of water / snow on the road ( it may well melt the snow ) that would make it even less efficient, especially if higher frequencies are used.  Would the system affect pacemakers and hearing aids, car radios,  or even the body tissue of anyone walking across the road surface, how about motorcycle riders who do not have a faraday cage of the metal car body around them ? 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on May 26, 2021, 09:16:02 AM
Yes. It seems that that one is a non-starter.

I think there is a lot of mileage in vehicle to grid chargers which enable the electric car to become part of the solution to the problem of energy supply rather than part of the problem.
For the last year my car has been quietly rusting away on my driveway doing nothing and even in normal times most vehicles spend the vast proportion of their lives parked outside houses, offices, factories or railway stations
If they were electric vehicles they could be being used as portable power walls.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=V2g+utube&&view=detail&mid=105C617CBF6ED2732FAF105C617CBF6ED2732FAF&&FORM=VRDGAR&ru=%2Fvideos%2Fsearch%3Fq%3DV2g%2Butube%26%26FORM%3DVDVVXX

https://www.ovoenergy.com/guides/electric-cars/vehicle-to-grid-technology.html

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=V2g+utube&docid=608035148647129549&mid=363204C56110A0D9788D363204C56110A0D9788D&view=detail&FORM=VIRE

Edit added another utube video
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on May 26, 2021, 11:53:33 AM
Using cars as portable power packs involve huge privacy issues : tracking where you stopped etc, ensuring your account is not hacked, ensuring your account is credited with correct amounts etc.
As the industry cannot agree a standardised connection system, it is going to take decades.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on May 26, 2021, 01:05:33 PM
Using cars as portable power packs involve huge privacy issues : tracking where you stopped etc, ensuring your account is not hacked, ensuring your account is credited with correct amounts etc.
As the industry cannot agree a standardised connection system, it is going to take decades.
Why would that be any more privacy-invading than credit or debit cards?

I envisage it mainly as for home use. Charge at cheap rate overnight. Use some unneeded energy during the day for domestic use. Sell excess to grid.
Rinse and repeat.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on May 26, 2021, 01:53:33 PM
Using cars as portable power packs involve huge privacy issues : tracking where you stopped etc, ensuring your account is not hacked, ensuring your account is credited with correct amounts etc.
As the industry cannot agree a standardised connection system, it is going to take decades.
Why would that be any more privacy-invading than credit or debit cards?

I envisage it mainly as for home use. Charge at cheap rate overnight. Use some unneeded energy during the day for domestic use. Sell excess to grid.
Rinse and repeat.

This is more of an issue for battery cycle life than privacy - and batteries live and die by the number of cycles they have to go through.  You could be buying a 5 year old car but the battery has seen 10years + of cycles.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on May 26, 2021, 02:20:16 PM
Using cars as portable power packs involve huge privacy issues : tracking where you stopped etc, ensuring your account is not hacked, ensuring your account is credited with correct amounts etc.
As the industry cannot agree a standardised connection system, it is going to take decades.
Why would that be any more privacy-invading than credit or debit cards?

I envisage it mainly as for home use. Charge at cheap rate overnight. Use some unneeded energy during the day for domestic use. Sell excess to grid.
Rinse and repeat.

This is more of an issue for battery cycle life than privacy - and batteries live and die by the number of cycles they have to go through.  You could be buying a 5 year old car but the battery has seen 10years + of cycles.

Musk's been talking about a million mile battery for ages.
Are batteries not meant to be charged and discharged? This is what happens when they are in a car.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=V2g+utube&ru=%2fvideos%2fsearch%3fq%3dV2g%2butube%26%26FORM%3dVDVVXX&view=detail&mid=EE9E38746090031FD586EE9E38746090031FD586&&FORM=VDRVRV

Edit added link
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on May 26, 2021, 02:55:05 PM
This is more of an issue for battery cycle life than privacy - and batteries live and die by the number of cycles they have to go through.  You could be buying a 5 year old car but the battery has seen 10years + of cycles.

Musk's been talking about a million mile battery for ages.
Are batteries not meant to be charged and discharged? This is what happens when they are in a car.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=V2g+utube&ru=%2fvideos%2fsearch%3fq%3dV2g%2butube%26%26FORM%3dVDVVXX&view=detail&mid=EE9E38746090031FD586EE9E38746090031FD586&&FORM=VDRVRV

Edit added link

Batteries are meant to be charged and discharged, but doing it reduces their capacity, you can store a Li-ION battery at about 45% SOC for years and it won't degrade hardly at all.  Charge and discharge it daily over the same number of years will degrade it a lot. Charging and discharging causes 'wear', so just like a washing machine, if you buy one and don't use it it will last centuries,  but with daily use maybe 10 years.  In one case the wear is caused by mechanical movement, in the other case chemical changes.

https://www.mpoweruk.com/life.htm

Even Tesla admit that the longest battery life is achieved if you forget fast charging altogether,  and otherwise limit the depth of discharge and charge.  Fully charging a Li-Ion battery damages it, keeping the SOC above 80% damages it, discharging below 30% damages it ( after manufacture batteries are actually stored at 45% SOC for least degradation and longer shelf life ).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on May 26, 2021, 03:32:53 PM


Charging and discharging causes 'wear', so just like a washing machine, if you buy one and don't use it it will last centuries,  but with daily use maybe 10 years.  In one case the wear is caused by mechanical movement, in the other case chemical changes.

Not much sense in storing a washing machine for centuries or in buying an expensive battery and not using it.



Even Tesla admit that the longest battery life is achieved if you forget fast charging altogether,  and otherwise limit the depth of discharge and charge.  Fully charging a Li-Ion battery damages it, keeping the SOC above 80% damages it, discharging below 30% damages it ( after manufacture batteries are actually stored at 45% SOC for least degradation and longer shelf life ).

Agreed.
I suppose you don't know how much fast charging the battery has been subjected to when buying second hand. Then again I suppose you don't know what the one careful lady owner has subjected the engine to when buying an ICE.

Last edit Added last paragraph.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: embee on May 31, 2021, 10:11:12 PM
Looks like HMRC is catching up on use of electrickery for cars, clarifying that all charging of cars in public places will be subject to VAT at 20% (standard rate) and not the reduced 5% rate for domestic electricity.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/ev-charging-company-hikes-uk-prices-after-vat-rule-clarification/ar-AAKyqga?ocid=msedgdhp

If the gas boiler ban comes in and people switch wholesale to air sourced heat pumps and use electric cars, my rough estimate is that on average a UK home could be getting close to the 1000kWhr/month limit which is assumed for the 5% VAT rate. It's got to be just a matter of time before HMRC start looking for ways to apply 20% VAT on car charging at home (remember why they want smart meters in all homes?)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TiJazz on June 01, 2021, 01:56:37 AM
Smart meters still can’t differentiate between devices. You’d have to meter the charger separately.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on June 01, 2021, 11:09:31 AM
Just adding to my previous post about the two EV Youtubers who have slammed the state of the UK charging network, Jonathan Porterfield who sells EVs for a living, has joined the party. In this case he is slamming the charging network in Scotland (I thought it was better than England but maybe not).

The narrative is that more chargers are coming on line all the time but the complaints are rising. Is this because the increase in EV sales (still tiny as a proportion) is outstripping the ability of the network to cope?

The chronic unreliability of these chargers is cited as an issue by many who use them. The companies that own them are very slow to repair them (some are better than others but it's an issue). There is increasing concern about "Betamax" syndrome with particular reference to CHADEMO chargers as fitted to the Nissan Leaf.

Jonathan Porterfield is clear. The target must be the same level of provision and reliability as currently exists at petrol and diesel pumps. Contactless must be the default payment method and Apps must be phased out as a charging mechanism.

EVs are still suitable for many uses but not for a single car household that would need to use the laughable public charging network we currently have. It's not even close to being fit for purpose.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on June 01, 2021, 12:49:49 PM
Smart meters still can’t differentiate between devices. You’d have to meter the charger separately.

There's devices available now that differentiate between your toaster and your microwave. They are used to monitor elderly or vulnerable people to check that they are ok and doing things in their home.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-57009375

Also, why Electric Car adoption will accelerate exponentially.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57253947
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on June 01, 2021, 03:18:11 PM
Smart meters still can’t differentiate between devices. You’d have to meter the charger separately.

There's devices available now that differentiate between your toaster and your microwave. They are used to monitor elderly or vulnerable people to check that they are ok and doing things in their home.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-57009375

Also, why Electric Car adoption will accelerate exponentially.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57253947

I have said before on this thread that governments will find a way to sort out electrickery used to charge EV from the rest of household use and it will incur 20% VAT as opposed to the 5% presently levied. 

I don't think you can compare internet and other tech revolutions with electric cars,  in the first place internet lowered most peoples expenditure ( access to online buying like Ebay and Amazon ) and vastly expanded their opportunities for entertainment.  Whereas the cheapest electric vehicle now is many times the cost of its ICE / Hybrid alternative, and really not that much cheaper to run unless you can charge at home ( at maybe not even that for much longer ).  People may be more interested in multi-fuel cars that can for example both Hydrogen or LPG in a conventional engine, or in a fuel cell. 

The other thing is the proliferation of different charging plugs and fast and slow charging - as Peteo48 said, 'Betamax and VHS' all over again.  Unlike present fuel stations where they are in fairly compact areas looked after well ( supervised by proper humans ) the electric charging stuff is in small lumps scattered all over the place, wide open to vandalism and bad maintenance. 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on June 01, 2021, 05:28:59 PM
I don't think you can compare internet and other tech revolutions with electric cars,  in the first place internet lowered most peoples expenditure ( access to online buying like Ebay and Amazon ) and vastly expanded their opportunities for entertainment.  Whereas the cheapest electric vehicle now is many times the cost of its ICE / Hybrid alternative, and really not that much cheaper to run unless you can charge at home ( at maybe not even that for much longer ).  People may be more interested in multi-fuel cars that can for example both Hydrogen or LPG in a conventional engine, or in a fuel cell. 

The other thing is the proliferation of different charging plugs and fast and slow charging - as Peteo48 said, 'Betamax and VHS' all over again.  Unlike present fuel stations where they are in fairly compact areas looked after well ( supervised by proper humans ) the electric charging stuff is in small lumps scattered all over the place, wide open to vandalism and bad maintenance.
All the examples you give here have direct correlations in terms of the growth of the Internet. It was hugely expensive to begin with, very difficult to access until the early '90s, and even then problematic and expensive until ADSL became a standard. In the '90s it was offered to the public via a variety of incompatible services like Compuserve and AOL that eventually coalesced into a standard. I think the similarities are there for all to see.

What the BBC article says is that, in comparison to the adoption of the Internet, we are probably somewhere around that point in time in the mid '90s when, over about 8 years, it went from being a niche technology to a household commodity.

The naysayers can nay all the like, I'm not a fan yet, it's early days, but it will happen, eventually. It is inevitable.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: E27006 on June 01, 2021, 05:45:55 PM
The car industry is first-class when bending sheet metal into a car, how low can be the price of all that bent sheet metal?  Dacia Sandero .....  £7995.
An electric car is a package of a very expensive battery pack and less than £7995 worth of sheet metal.
Moore's Law  applies when something doubles in performance for the same money, or, same performance for half the money.
In the case of the computer CPU, the Moore's law cycle is two years, in the case of the battery, Moore's law cycle is said by the experts  to be 7 years,  2030  is only 1 and a bit Moore cycles for batteries to halve in price or double in capacity. 2030, the end of making IC cars,  It is simply too early in the Moors law cycle for a truly affordable electric car, and it will be many Moore's law cycle before  we see an electric car to compete with a  £7995 Dacia Sandero.
The service life of cars has improved greatly,  better rustproofing etc. Predictions are  cars manufactured in 2029 will be fit for 30 years of service
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on June 01, 2021, 06:34:53 PM
I read the BBC EV article and it's based on manufacturers ramping up production capacity of EVs and phasing out ICE powered vehicles. However, the grand plan comes unstuck if either the charging infrastructure isn't there or the cost of charging is significantly more than the cost of fuel in which case potential purchasers will be cautious about getting EVs. Plus, if carbon-based fuels have to be used to generate the electricity, then the CO2 reduction benefit is much reduced.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on June 01, 2021, 07:43:54 PM
I read the BBC EV article and it's based on manufacturers ramping up production capacity of EVs and phasing out ICE powered vehicles. However, the grand plan comes unstuck if either the charging infrastructure isn't there or the cost of charging is significantly more than the cost of fuel in which case potential purchasers will be cautious about getting EVs. Plus, if carbon-based fuels have to be used to generate the electricity, then the CO2 reduction benefit is much reduced.

For long periods this year the fans on sticks have not really contributed much to grid, they go from 35% to <5% in the blink of an eye, but have spent long periods in the 5% area this year.  Solar is worthwhile for about 10 hours a day at this time of year, but between October and March in UK the solar may as well not be connected to grid.... so gas and nuclear continue to be the mainstay of our grid ( mainly gas, which is normally from 40 to over 60% )....really the only reliable sources of power.  Unless we can get a reliable source of electrickery BEV on a large scale are pie in the sky, and when you add all electric houses into the equation = madness.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on June 02, 2021, 07:37:47 AM
Unfortunately the real madness is in continuing to add unnecessary carbon dioxide into the atmosphere.

https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-change/news/carbon-dioxide-concentration-atmosphere-highest-level-800-000-years-mauna-loa-observatory-hawaii-a8337921.html

https://climate.nasa.gov/climate_resources/24/graphic-the-relentless-rise-of-carbon-dioxide/

Latest edit added 2nd link
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on June 02, 2021, 09:12:56 AM
The car industry is first-class when bending sheet metal into a car, how low can be the price of all that bent sheet metal?  Dacia Sandero .....  £7995.
An electric car is a package of a very expensive battery pack and less than £7995 worth of sheet metal.
Moore's Law  applies when something doubles in performance for the same money, or, same performance for half the money.

Since when did Moore's law apply to battery technology? As far as I know, the law applied to computer processing power, and now it is starting to break down anyway. Battery tech is coming on in leaps and bounds now that there is a massive potential (no pun intended) market for it.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: E27006 on June 02, 2021, 10:38:17 AM
The car industry is first-class when bending sheet metal into a car, how low can be the price of all that bent sheet metal?  Dacia Sandero .....  £7995.
An electric car is a package of a very expensive battery pack and less than £7995 worth of sheet metal.
Moore's Law  applies when something doubles in performance for the same money, or, same performance for half the money.

Since when did Moore's law apply to battery technology? As far as I know, the law applied to computer processing power, and now it is starting to break down anyway. Battery tech is coming on in leaps and bounds now that there is a massive potential (no pun intended) market for it.
Moore's Law came from Gordon Moore of Intel, and you are correct, it applied to semiconductors in the earliest instance.
Moore's law for semiconductors may well be breaking down, but it has held true for  50 to 60 years of semiconductor manufacture, 50-60 years being  25 to 30 iterations of a 2-year Moore cycle, not a bad record for an empirical concept.
Moore's Law is such a useful  concept, it has expanded beyond the semiconductor  industry.
The battery manufacturers  have  described battery capacity developments  as having a 7 year Moore cycle
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on June 02, 2021, 11:34:00 AM
Moore's Law came from Gordon Moore of Intel, and you are correct, it applied to semiconductors in the earliest instance.
I didn't say it applied to semiconductors. It doesn't. Semiconductors is a wide term ranging from individual transistors to complex integrated circuits. Moore's Law applies to the number of transistors that can fabricated into a single integrated circuit. More specifically, it applies to the ability to make the circuits smaller and more dense over time. It has slowed as certain theoretical limits are being approached but other techniques are being developed now which might circumvent these limits, along with changes in the way processing units are being designed, scaled and made to work together.

I think the same sort of acceleration in pace of developments certainly apply in the battery world now, but it is confusing for me, given my IT background, to hear Moore's Law being used to describe them. They need their own name for it. Maybe the Duracel Bunny's Law or something.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on June 02, 2021, 12:22:20 PM
Unless we can get a reliable source of electrickery BEV on a large scale are pie in the sky, and when you add all electric houses into the equation = madness.
I completely agree, yet those who think they are running the country can't, or won't, realise this. I recall that one was recently quoted as saying that "Britain will become the Saudi Arabia of wind power" which might work if enough turbines are built in the mid-Atlantic to improve the geographical spread and reduce the vulnerability to the weather. I see no alternative in the short term to ordering some more nuclear power stations. This should have been done several years ago in order to improve future supply reliability with less quibbling about the cost. Much of the time the UK is importing 2 to 3 GW of nuclear power from France which is fine until that power is needed elsewhere.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on June 02, 2021, 01:47:34 PM
The car industry is first-class when bending sheet metal into a car, how low can be the price of all that bent sheet metal?  Dacia Sandero .....  £7995.
An electric car is a package of a very expensive battery pack and less than £7995 worth of sheet metal.
Moore's Law  applies when something doubles in performance for the same money, or, same performance for half the money.

Since when did Moore's law apply to battery technology? As far as I know, the law applied to computer processing power, and now it is starting to break down anyway. Battery tech is coming on in leaps and bounds now that there is a massive potential (no pun intended) market for it.

Maybe the duracell-Bunny law can cover the density of AmpereHours in a battery,  the more Ah in a battery and the smaller and lighter it is makes it better as a chemical storage medium for electrical power.  Not sure a hard cell is the best way to market batteries though,  maybe soft-cell will turn out to be more flexible ( are lithium polymer batteries and example of soft cell ? )  I try to be positive about future battery tech,  but unfortunately there still has to be a negative as well. 

Now here is a thing - conventional power flow in a battery is said to be from positive pole to negative pole,  but this was when scientists thought that 'ions' ( positively charged bits ) were the basis of electricity,  unfortunately it was later found that electrons ( negatively charged thingies ) are the real prime mover,  and they migrate from negative to positive..... So then they came up with the 'hole flow' convention,  where it is the holes on the valency that electrons leave behind when moving from - to + that constitute 'electrical flow' and the 'holes' move from + to -.........
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on June 02, 2021, 02:03:25 PM

Now here is a thing - conventional power flow in a battery is said to be from positive pole to negative pole,  but this was when scientists thought that 'ions' ( positively charged bits ) were the basis of electricity,  unfortunately it was later found that electrons ( negatively charged thingies ) are the real prime mover,  and they migrate from negative to positive..... So then they came up with the 'hole flow' convention,  where it is the holes on the valency that electrons leave behind when moving from - to + that constitute 'electrical flow' and the 'holes' move from + to -.........

Electrons move in the external circuits. Ions migrate wihin the cells.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on June 02, 2021, 02:11:51 PM


Now here is a thing - conventional power flow in a battery is said to be from positive pole to negative pole,  but this was when scientists thought that 'ions' ( positively charged bits ) were the basis of electricity,  unfortunately it was later found that electrons ( negatively charged thingies ) are the real prime mover,  and they migrate from negative to positive..... So then they came up with the 'hole flow' convention,  where it is the holes on the valency that electrons leave behind when moving from - to + that constitute 'electrical flow' and the 'holes' move from + to -.........


Electrons move in the external circuits. Ions migrate wihin the cells.



Yeah they used to think Ions moved in external circuits....
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on June 02, 2021, 02:17:19 PM


Now here is a thing - conventional power flow in a battery is said to be from positive pole to negative pole,  but this was when scientists thought that 'ions' ( positively charged bits ) were the basis of electricity,  unfortunately it was later found that electrons ( negatively charged thingies ) are the real prime mover,  and they migrate from negative to positive..... So then they came up with the 'hole flow' convention,  where it is the holes on the valency that electrons leave behind when moving from - to + that constitute 'electrical flow' and the 'holes' move from + to -.........


Electrons move in the external circuits. Ions migrate wihin the cells.



Yeah they used to think Ions moved in external circuits....
Nope, Ions can be positive or negative. They used to think that electrical charge moved from positive to negative.
Elecrons flow through metals.
Semiconductors are best explained using holes.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on June 10, 2021, 09:09:32 PM
How about a Morris J van?

(https://www.autocar.co.uk/sites/autocar.co.uk/files/styles/gallery_slide/public/images/car-reviews/first-drives/legacy/99-morris-je-official-tracking-front.jpg?itok=D6IMBTvM)

https://www.morris-commercial.com/ (https://www.morris-commercial.com/)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on June 11, 2021, 03:54:04 AM
They should have started with a Morris Minor Traveller recreation, complete with wood. I think that would have had more retro / eco appeal. I’d buy one.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on June 11, 2021, 07:34:03 AM
You could have anything you want.
https://www.carscoops.com/2020/12/zero-labs-skateboard-ev-platform-has-been-designed-specifically-for-electromods/
https://driving.ca/column/how-it-works/how-it-works-electric-vehicle-skateboard-chassis
Added second link
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on June 12, 2021, 03:22:05 PM
The end of the road for petrol stations? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57416829 . My impression is that thousands of rural petrol stations have gone already but there are still enough places to refill. More efficient engines means more miles per tankful. My Austin A35 needed refilling every 150 miles. Perhaps, if demand for liquid vehicle fuel reduces, then supermarkets will reduce the number of pumps and mabe add some EV chargers instead.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on June 12, 2021, 04:05:19 PM
The end of the road for petrol stations? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57416829 . My impression is that thousands of rural petrol stations have gone already but there are still enough places to refill. More efficient engines means more miles per tankful. My Austin A35 needed refilling every 150 miles. Perhaps, if demand for liquid vehicle fuel reduces, then supermarkets will reduce the number of pumps and mabe add some EV chargers instead.

The 400 to 800 volts DC needed to charge EV is also deadly,  and when charging points get vandalised ( as they will because they are scattered around in small groups in multiple unsupervised places ) that electricity will be exposed...  There is basically only one type of petrol and one type of diesel fuel, but already we are seeing many different types of charging plugs and many different voltages.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-44874476

https://flipboard.com/article/vandals-are-stuffing-meat-into-electric-vehicle-charging-stations/f-2ee53371e9%2Ffuturism.com

https://www.greencarfuture.com/electric/tesla-voltage
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on June 12, 2021, 07:05:13 PM
The end of the road for petrol stations?
I lived in Burntisland for most of my life and when I first started driving we had three garages and a filling station selling petrol. Now the nearest filling station is 6 miles away, in Kirkcaldy.
I even remember filling up at a garage in Killin and the pumps were on the outside wall of the garage and you had to stop in the street and fill up across the pavement. Similar to this in St Mawes.

(https://www.oldclassiccar.co.uk/classic-car-images/garages/st-mawes.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on June 13, 2021, 08:15:52 AM

.......  and when charging points get vandalised ( as they will because they are scattered around in small groups in multiple unsupervised places ) that electricity will be exposed... 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-44874476

https://flipboard.com/article/vandals-are-stuffing-meat-into-electric-vehicle-charging-stations/f-2ee53371e9%2Ffuturism.com


Creme eggs and raw mince ?  :o
Not the materials of choice for your common or garden vandal.
More likely some Luddite inebriated old farts with an aversion to electric cars and the effect they will have on the price of their BP or Aral shares.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on June 13, 2021, 09:21:03 AM

.......  and when charging points get vandalised ( as they will because they are scattered around in small groups in multiple unsupervised places ) that electricity will be exposed... 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-44874476

https://flipboard.com/article/vandals-are-stuffing-meat-into-electric-vehicle-charging-stations/f-2ee53371e9%2Ffuturism.com


Creme eggs and raw mince ?  :o
Not the materials of choice for your common or garden vandal.
More likely some Luddite inebriated old farts with an aversion to electric cars and the effect they will have on the price of their BP or Aral shares.

There is often no rhyme or reason for vandalism,  when things get left unsupervised they get damaged - it is a fact of life.    Majority of the BT public phone boxes were out of order most of the time, it is just (some) human nature.  If people will nick copper cable from hospital standby generators they will nick anything.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on June 14, 2021, 07:29:47 AM
If people will nick copper cable from hospital standby generators they will nick anything.

You may have inadvertently struck on a good analogy for the fossil fuels and metal extraction industries there.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on June 14, 2021, 09:29:02 AM
 
If people will nick copper cable from hospital standby generators they will nick anything.

You may have inadvertently struck on a good analogy for the fossil fuels and metal extraction industries there.

 ???

That went right over my head and hit the wall behind  ::)

I suppose standby power for hospitals in future will be a battery in the carpark that will last a couple of hours, meanwhile the fans on sticks sit immobile because no wind.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on June 14, 2021, 10:20:12 AM
I suppose standby power for hospitals in future will be a battery in the carpark that will last a couple of hours, meanwhile the fans on sticks sit immobile because no wind.

Surely the solution would be for hospitals to put in loads of EV charge points, that way they can suck the cars dry if there's a power failure?  :o
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on June 14, 2021, 11:03:05 AM
I suppose standby power for hospitals in future will be a battery in the carpark that will last a couple of hours, meanwhile the fans on sticks sit immobile because no wind.

Surely the solution would be for hospitals to put in loads of EV charge points, that way they can suck the cars dry if there's a power failure?  :o

Why didn't I think of that dohhhhh !
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on June 14, 2021, 12:01:55 PM
If people will nick copper cable from hospital standby generators they will nick anything.

You may have inadvertently struck on a good analogy for the fossil fuels and metal extraction industries there.

 ???

That went right over my head and hit the wall behind  ::)

I suppose standby power for hospitals in future will be a battery in the carpark that will last a couple of hours, meanwhile the fans on sticks sit immobile because no wind.

Sorry.
Allow me to explain.
The vandals who are extracting fossil fuels and  metals for short term gain are endangering the planet.
The first to suffer will be the unfortunate people in less developed countries but eventually everybody will suffer.

I suppose standby power for hospitals in future will be a battery in the carpark that will last a couple of hours, meanwhile the fans on sticks sit immobile because no wind.

Surely the solution would be for hospitals to put in loads of EV charge points, that way they can suck the cars dry if there's a power failure?  :o

Why didn't I think of that dohhhhh !

Why not?
 I doubt that anyone who works in or visits a hospital would need more than a few kWh to get home or to a charging station and they could be financially compensated for the electricity used.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on June 14, 2021, 12:33:52 PM
Why didn't I think of that dohhhhh !

Why not?
 I doubt that anyone who works in or visits a hospital would need more than a few kWh to get home or to a charging station and they could be financially compensated for the electricity used.

How about if everyone had gone on the bus ( as the government is pushing ) and carpark was empty - or maybe during nightime.  Hospitals have enough to deal with - without wondering where their next amps and volts are coming from.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on June 14, 2021, 01:53:10 PM


How about if everyone had gone on the bus ( as the government is pushing ) and carpark was empty - or maybe during nightime.  Hospitals have enough to deal with - without wondering where their next amps and volts are coming from.
Don't know about  hospitals around your way but the hospital car park near me covers tens of acres and you always have to allow extra time to find a space.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on June 14, 2021, 02:15:28 PM


How about if everyone had gone on the bus ( as the government is pushing ) and carpark was empty - or maybe during nightime.  Hospitals have enough to deal with - without wondering where their next amps and volts are coming from.
Don't know about  hospitals around your way but the hospital car park near me covers tens of acres and you always have to allow extra time to find a space.

The English hospitals have either sold off any spare land for houses or built more 'hospital' on what used to be the carpark.  All the ones by us have ANPR cameras and nowhere near enough parking for the amount of services they have.  If any of our family ( or even our neigbours if we are feeling generous ) have to go for appointments someone normally drops them off and picks them - or a Taxi... ( or the bus - as per government wishes ).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on June 14, 2021, 03:09:18 PM
Allow me to explain.
The vandals who are extracting fossil fuels and  metals for short term gain are endangering the planet.
The first to suffer will be the unfortunate people in less developed countries but eventually everybody will suffer.
Diesel makes sense for standby generators with intermittent usage and biodiesel would be appropriate for these. It makes less sense for diesel engines running for many hours per day as the result is demand exceeding supply of recycled vegetable oils.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on June 19, 2021, 06:04:29 PM
Reading an article where they are thinking about allowing full EVs to use bus lanes to help with the uptake among city drivers. Number plates would have to have the green flash to signify an EV (illegal to have a green flash on a non-EV).

Also, read a thought-provoking piece about the demise of filling stations on the BBC News site.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57416829 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57416829)

As an aside, they are putting in a bus lane at the eastern end of the M8. As far as I am aware only one bus uses the M8 and despite driving it every day at present, I have yet to see one!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on June 19, 2021, 07:08:05 PM
As soon as a certain number of EV are using bus lanes they will stop them from using bus lanes, they are offering all sorts of incentives, but they will all disappear once a critical mass of EV are using roads,  and running  costs will also rise steeply.. we have seen how governments behave ...
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Dayjo on June 19, 2021, 10:12:19 PM
Came across this, on my Pensioner's Forum. There are a lot of people, still to be convinced......


(https://i.postimg.cc/RVkf7C1F/Electric-Car-Jam.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: springswood on June 20, 2021, 07:55:15 AM
It doesn't look to me like whoever produced that has thought about it. At least not very numerately.

The power consumption of a radio or windscreen wipers is trivial compared to driving. So that's not a real concern - though in the panic of that situation I'd imagine lots of people would think it worthwhile. Heating could be an issue, though it's pretty extreme to say there's virtually none in an electric vehicle. I think we're used to the gross inefficiency of internal combustion engines that mean there's so much waste heat it's easy to do lazy engineering. Lets say you've a low 20kWh and start half charged. In 3 hours you've still got kilowatts to play with. Which ought to be enough to keep a car warm. In the depths of last winter my modest 2 bed Edwardian terrace in Yorkshire took an average of 1.5 kW to stay comfortable. It is pretty well insulated though. I suppose there will be idiots who go out in those sort of conditions without even warm clothes.

It reminds me of the 70s when the family Austin Princess froze up and bust a hose. The only replacement we could get didn't have the branch off to the heater. So we drove the 5 hours or more from Kent to Liverpool in freezing conditions without. Not comfortable but we got by - under quilts - there were 6 of us which probably helped.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on June 20, 2021, 09:00:22 AM
I would expect EVs to use heat pumps which are much more power-efficient than using simple resistance heating. I would expect no more than 200W (and probably nearer 100W) would be needed to keep the vehicle warm so that's a least 5 hours of heating per kWh of battery. Nonetheless, I would consider the bottom 20% in the battery to be a reserve for emergencies but it's also better for the battery longevity to not deplete it below 20%.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on June 20, 2021, 11:01:07 AM
I would expect EVs to use heat pumps which are much more power-efficient than using simple resistance heating. I would expect no more than 200W (and probably nearer 100W) would be needed to keep the vehicle warm so that's a least 5 hours of heating per kWh of battery. Nonetheless, I would consider the bottom 20% in the battery to be a reserve for emergencies but it's also better for the battery longevity to not deplete it below 20%.

At the kind of temperatures where you don't need heating ( >35 deg C ) air source heat pumps will return over 3KW of heat for every 1KW of electricity used to drive the system.  However now drop to 5 deg C and the return drops to <1.5 per KW,  like most sources of clean ( renewable ) power when you need them the most they give the least. ( fans on sticks <5% and solar <6% of grid demand today,  which considering the 'installed capacity' and the cost of installing it is miserable ).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on June 20, 2021, 11:38:27 AM
Came across this, on my Pensioner's Forum. There are a lot of people, still to be convinced......
It doesn't look to me like whoever produced that has thought about it. At least not very numerately.

Or someone is trying to deceive pensioners.
A battery which can move a tonne of metal 100miles at 70mph contains enough energy to run a house far less heat a car for a few hours using a heat exchanger.
Also if all the other cars stuck around you are electric you don't have to worry about inhaling their exhaust fumes.


At the kind of temperatures where you don't need heating ( >35 deg C ) air source heat pumps will return over 3KW of heat for every 1KW of electricity used to drive the system.  However now drop to 5 deg C and the return drops to <1.5 per KW,
 

Even if heat pumps aren't working at their most efficient there would still be more than enough energy stored in the battery to keep you warm for hours.
Taking John's figure of 200W, 2kWh would give you 10hours.

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/2022-ford-f-150-lightning-electric-pickup-intelligent-backup-power-house/
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: embee on June 20, 2021, 03:18:22 PM
Typical consumption of small/medium EV cars is 3 or 4 miles per kWh. If it's doing 30mph average that's something like 10kWhr of motive energy used in an hour. If you ran a 1kW heater in it, that equates to an extra 10% consumption, not exactly huge. As others say, I doubt you need 1kW heating for very long to get a car warm and then it could be ramped down.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on June 28, 2021, 06:52:12 PM
Today I followed a 69 plate Tesla out of a car park and the boot lid fit was atrocious. Touching at one side and about a finger's width the other.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on June 29, 2021, 10:41:24 AM
Yes - hearing and reading a lot of build quality issues relating to Teslas.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TiJazz on June 29, 2021, 09:23:35 PM
Made in China ones (20 onwards) are said to be much better. My US made one was dire.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: embee on June 29, 2021, 09:47:46 PM
I remember reading a report by a major car manufacturer who had done a tear-down analysis of an early Tesla. This is a normal process where they take competitor vehicles apart and analyse the engineering, weights, costs, assembly processes etc.
The conclusion was that it left an awful lot to be desired regarding design for assembly, which would inevitably lead to significant variation in build quality. There were examples of "bracket on a bracket" type assemblies, too many tolerances stacking up and costly build, and likely reliability issues.
I imagine the design process has evolved and is now significantly better, well at least I'd hope so.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on June 30, 2021, 07:49:00 AM
I imagine the design process has evolved and is now significantly better, well at least I'd hope so.

Or maybe not. Tesla consistently scores poorly in reliability surveys, for example:
https://www.which.co.uk/news/2020/09/the-two-least-reliable-car-brands-plus-why-you-should-avoid-a-luxury-car-if-you-want-good-reliability/
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on June 30, 2021, 08:45:58 AM
I imagine the design process has evolved and is now significantly better, well at least I'd hope so.

Or maybe not. Tesla consistently scores poorly in reliability surveys, for example:
https://www.which.co.uk/news/2020/09/the-two-least-reliable-car-brands-plus-why-you-should-avoid-a-luxury-car-if-you-want-good-reliability/

Article from the same site

https://www.which.co.uk/news/2021/06/eight-things-electric-car-owners-should-know/
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TiJazz on June 30, 2021, 03:04:25 PM
The Model 3 was initially over-engineered and poorly assembled, as you’d expect from a company that’s only been making cars for a decade.

They’ve improved the processes over time, but still suffer from quality issues when it comes to assembly.

The Model Y is a huge step up in terms of process design from what I’ve seen, and the China factories seem to have solved the assembly quality issues apparently.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on July 03, 2021, 11:00:56 AM
Tesla sales in China slump due to safety and quality issues, added to removal of subsidies on BEV by government, which mean BEV sales in general have slumped anyway.

https://www.scmp.com/business/companies/article/3133093/teslas-suffers-setback-china-backlash-over-safety-quality-its




Comment on ‘why Honda failed in UK’


Honda rightly removed itself from the UK market once the UK Government declared, inexplicably, that 'electric vehicles' were the future.

Nissan's £100m UK-subsidised battery plant is a folly - just like Boris's bike scheme and bike lanes in London, just like his support for HS2 or a Thames Estuary airport.

First, China is supplying the plant itself - so yet more support from the UK to not only a very aggressive, criminal gang who are crushing freedoms in Hong Kong - but a country whose own electric car sector is already in deep crisis.  https://www.reuters.com/business/retail-consumer/nissan-bets-big-uk-with-ev-battery-plant-new-crossover-2021-07-01/

Its 'star' electric car company, NIO, needed a Chinese government emergency cash injection of $1.4bn to stop it going bankrupt. Next, few Chinese are fooled in buying these awful, expensive, low range (can't tow anything or else the battery drains to nothing..) vehicles - even when the price is at least 40% of manufacturing cost - just like most Chinese exported goods.

Boris's support for the Chinese electric car sector is a shocker..

China believes in monopolising the market by bankrupting all overseas rivals via a policy of 'far below cost' pricing that no western firm could possibly match.

Staff at NIO have already been sharply cut back. Taxi drivers forced to buy them hate them like the plague as they take two hours to charge up and they have to queue for one hour for a charging station. Batteries bursting into flames adds to their 'appeal'.

Until the UK Government installs around 2,000 charging stations minimum at the UK's motorway service stations, and many more at the biggest, the ridiculous, impractical, hugely expensive White Elephant of the electric car 'revolution' - won't happen.

And 95% of UK motorists will never willingly buy one. Who would??
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: nowster on July 03, 2021, 01:42:25 PM
And 95% of UK motorists will never willingly buy one. Who would??

And some of those who recently got one are now regretting it. (A friend who lives in a second floor flat with separate parking is now regretting getting a Renault Zoe. She's had no end of trouble trying to organise charging it up.)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TiJazz on July 03, 2021, 04:51:35 PM
I had a Zoe without home charging. 80 mile range on a good day, completely reliant on the 7kW post at the gym round the corner.

The week after I sold it, that gym charger stopped working. I would have been screwed.

Please don’t buy an EV unless you have reliable home charging, and never plan to travel more than half the range of the car (unless you can guarantee destination charging, or have a Tesla).

Trust me - I’ve had 3 EVs!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: nowster on July 03, 2021, 09:30:47 PM
Please don’t buy an EV unless you have reliable home charging, and never plan to travel more than half the range of the car (unless you can guarantee destination charging, or have a Tesla).

She's thinking of driving from Manchester to Huntingdon later in the year. That's really marginal as the range is about 180 miles, and it's 160 miles via M62/A1, without a huge number of charging points in the town. (And she's hoping to use free ones. Not a chance!)

If she still has the Zoe, and I'm asked, I'll be suggesting she hires a proper car for that trip.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on July 04, 2021, 09:29:42 AM
Please don’t buy an EV unless you have reliable home charging, and never plan to travel more than half the range of the car (unless you can guarantee destination charging, or have a Tesla).

She's thinking of driving from Manchester to Huntingdon later in the year. That's really marginal as the range is about 180 miles, and it's 160 miles via M62/A1, without a huge number of charging points in the town. (And she's hoping to use free ones. Not a chance!)

If she still has the Zoe, and I'm asked, I'll be suggesting she hires a proper car for that trip.

If she stays at 40mph all the way and doesn't use any of the equipment in the car ( including radio  :o ) she should get near to claimed range,  I think some of the 'monospeeders' ( 40 mph in 60, 50, 30, 20 mph limits )  I see are BEV drivers worried about range  :-[
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on July 04, 2021, 11:07:30 AM
Please don’t buy an EV unless you have reliable home charging, and never plan to travel more than half the range of the car (unless you can guarantee destination charging, or have a Tesla).

She's thinking of driving from Manchester to Huntingdon later in the year. That's really marginal as the range is about 180 miles, and it's 160 miles via M62/A1, without a huge number of charging points in the town. (And she's hoping to use free ones. Not a chance!)

If she still has the Zoe, and I'm asked, I'll be suggesting she hires a proper car for that trip.

I think we are still at the position where EVs are not for everyone. When I thought of buying one 18 months or so ago now I did actually think of the hire car option for longer trips but some of these are day trips. What a monumental PITA to collect the hire car and take it back just for that (some companies will deliver but at a cost).

A couple of prominent EV You Tubers have as good as said that an EV will not suit everyone especially if it's your only car. If I had 2 cars (a waste in our house because only I drive) I genuinely would consider a second Nissan Leaf or Renault Zoe for short stuff but, if you only have one car, a pure EV is risky.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TiJazz on July 04, 2021, 12:15:39 PM
Please don’t buy an EV unless you have reliable home charging, and never plan to travel more than half the range of the car (unless you can guarantee destination charging, or have a Tesla).

She's thinking of driving from Manchester to Huntingdon later in the year. That's really marginal as the range is about 180 miles, and it's 160 miles via M62/A1, without a huge number of charging points in the town. (And she's hoping to use free ones. Not a chance!)

If she still has the Zoe, and I'm asked, I'll be suggesting she hires a proper car for that trip.
Is that the new Zoe? Marginal. If it’s an old Zoe, not a chance.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: nowster on July 04, 2021, 12:44:39 PM
Please don’t buy an EV unless you have reliable home charging, and never plan to travel more than half the range of the car (unless you can guarantee destination charging, or have a Tesla).

She's thinking of driving from Manchester to Huntingdon later in the year. That's really marginal as the range is about 180 miles, and it's 160 miles via M62/A1, without a huge number of charging points in the town. (And she's hoping to use free ones. Not a chance!)

If she still has the Zoe, and I'm asked, I'll be suggesting she hires a proper car for that trip.
Is that the new Zoe? Marginal. If it’s an old Zoe, not a chance.

It's the new Zoe 50, brand new as of May.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 04, 2021, 04:01:33 PM
Recently I have noticed a humungous amount of EVs around my route between Fife and Edinburgh. Now that they are being fitted with the number plates with the green EV flash I see cars that I always assumed were petrol or even diesel.  I have seen 4 Audi SUVs, loads of VWs and a mini, which if it wasn't for the green flash, I would have assumed was ICE. There are a shedload of Teslas I see every day, many of them that horrible grey colour, and the usual Ioniqs, Neros, Zoes, i3s and more Leafs than a breezy autumn day.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Westy36 on July 04, 2021, 07:44:03 PM
Range is a major drawback with current EV's. Volvo press release 30-06-2021.

"In the near term, Volvo Cars plans to work with leading Swedish battery company Northvolt to further increase the energy density in its battery cells by up to 50 per cent compared to what is on the market today. Later this decade, Volvo Cars also looks to break the 1000 Wh/l energy density milestone, in order to achieve 1000 km of real driving range."


That makes an EV a much more practical proposition with that kind of range.

https://www.media.volvocars.com/global/en-gb/media/pressreleases/283546/volvo-cars-to-focus-on-range-and-fast-charging-for-next-generation-of-fully-electric-cars

(https://www.autocar.co.uk/sites/autocar.co.uk/files/styles/gallery_slide/public/images/car-reviews/first-drives/legacy/1_volvo_tech_battery.jpg?itok=y8tO0TlH)
 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on July 04, 2021, 08:22:54 PM
Recently I have noticed a humungous amount of EVs around my route between Fife and Edinburgh. Now that they are being fitted with the number plates with the green EV flash I see cars that I always assumed were petrol or even diesel.  I have seen 4 Audi SUVs, loads of VWs and a mini, which if it wasn't for the green flash, I would have assumed was ICE. There are a shedload of Teslas I see every day, many of them that horrible grey colour, and the usual Ioniqs, Neros, Zoes, i3s and more Leafs than a breezy autumn day.

I wouldn't call it a tipping point but I am noticing the same.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kenneve on July 04, 2021, 09:16:14 PM
Well, I've had my Mk4 Jazz for almost 3 months and have not seen another one on the road in the Birmingham area, yet. Almost like hen's teeth, or perhaps I can't see straight.  ;D
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: nowster on July 05, 2021, 10:21:15 AM
Well, I've had my Mk4 Jazz for almost 3 months and have not seen another one on the road in the Birmingham area, yet. Almost like hen's teeth, or perhaps I can't see straight.  ;D

I saw one in black in a local car park last week. That was the first I'd seen in the wild since I got mine.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on July 05, 2021, 11:00:58 AM
New car sales are down so that might be one explanation. I was thinking about this - Toyotas are popular near us but I haven't seen many of the new Yaris either.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on July 06, 2021, 08:48:28 AM
We knew it would happen,  Australians are putting a tax on electric vehicles, 2.5 cents/km,  a spokesman said 'it is only fair that all road users contribute to the road network'.... and being as BEV tend to be twice as heavy as their ICE vehicle equivalents they damage the roads more.  Having a car will soon be for the rich only,  and BEV are accelerating that trend.  As the number of BEV rises and more people are 'committed' to them, I have no doubt at all that the tax will rise.   Maybe the honeymoon period for BEV is over.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TiJazz on July 06, 2021, 08:03:48 PM
Australia is dysfunctional at the best of times, in terms of how it’s run. Makes us look lucky to have Boris.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 06, 2021, 08:32:15 PM
I see Vauxhall's Ellesmere Port plant is going to be building electric vans and will also make electric passenger car models for Vauxhall, Opel, Peugeot and Citroën.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on July 06, 2021, 10:25:37 PM
Australia is dysfunctional at the best of times, in terms of how it’s run. Makes us look lucky to have Boris.

You think any government is going to lose the money from VED and fuel duty without finding an alternative way to get money out of motorists - dream on   >:(  As I said it will happen everywhere before too long. Watch out for VAT on any electricity from public and privately owned charging points ( and not just the 5% charged on electrickery now ),  and smart meters that know when a car is being charged and adjust the tariff / VAT rate to suit.... and also road pricing triggered by ANPR cameras and transponders at roadside when entering certain areas, and / or a GPS based system.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on July 06, 2021, 10:30:22 PM
I see Vauxhall's Ellesmere Port plant is going to be building electric vans and will also make electric passenger car models for Vauxhall, Opel, Peugeot and Citroën.



https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/stellantis-to-invest-100-mln-to-build-ev-plant-in-ellesmere-port-1030583064
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on July 13, 2021, 06:27:51 PM
Trouble brewing in EU land as French push to protect their inefficient car industry... Germany may well invade France again, but German armed forces have been reduced to 'an aggressive camping organisation'......

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-07-12/france-pushes-back-against-eu-banning-combustion-cars-by-2035
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TiJazz on July 13, 2021, 07:01:24 PM
The irony is that if Germany invaded France this time, it’d be a liberation from Macron’s authoritarianism.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 15, 2021, 07:43:42 PM
Honda EV SUV. Honda has confirmed that it will introduce a new electric crossover for the U.S. market. It will arrive in 2023 for the 2024 model year and will use GM's Ultium battery platform as part of a joint agreement between the two automakers.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 15, 2021, 07:57:00 PM
Caught the tail end of a Bike Show programme on the telly this evening and the guy was raving about the new Harley Davidson Livewire. Now, this guy said he was a dyed in the wool petrol head. He builds engines and tunes engines and has oil and grease in his pores. But he loved the Livewire. Riding it as he liked he only got 100 miles range. With a nighttime thrash, he only managed 76 miles. And it starts at £29,000. However, what he said was, if you can afford it you are not looking for a daily driver or a long-range tourer, though he did some long trips and was surprised how many fast chargers were available. Even in Wales. It is just a beautiful thing to ride.

(https://www.harley-davidson.com/content/dam/h-d/images/product-images/bikes/motorcycle/2020/2020-livewire/2020-livewire-e91/2020-livewire-e91-motorcycle.jpg?impolicy=myresize&rw=500)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Foksadure on August 05, 2021, 11:19:29 AM
Interesting article on last tuesday Guardian :
https://www.bloomsbury.com/us/brief-history-of-motion-9781635573619
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on August 09, 2021, 07:49:12 AM
Why has no manufacturer installed car roof solar panels to help keep both Hybrid or single electric batteries topped up ?

My neighbour rarely uses his car, last year he did 900 miles but he has a dash top small solar panel that trickle charges his 55 plate Fiesta and he's never had a problem.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on August 09, 2021, 08:12:25 AM
https://interestingengineering.com/7-companies-that-are-leading-the-way-for-solar-powered-cars#:~:text=%207%20Companies%20That%20Are%20Leading%20the%20Way,they%20move%20towards%20sunlight%20in%20order...%20More%20
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on August 09, 2021, 08:51:30 AM
Why has no manufacturer installed car roof solar panels to help keep both Hybrid or single electric batteries topped up ?

Just to illustrate the art of the possible (although not really in an everyday practical way):
https://www.bridgestone.com/bwsc/
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 09, 2021, 09:14:31 AM
Why has no manufacturer installed car roof solar panels to help keep both Hybrid or single electric batteries topped up ?

My neighbour rarely uses his car, last year he did 900 miles but he has a dash top small solar panel that trickle charges his 55 plate Fiesta and he's never had a problem.

This solar panel produces 1.8watts at 12 volts in full sunshine = 120milli amps ( average car parasitic drain is 25milli amp,  if car has an alarm could be getting on for 100milli-amps) ,  behind the glass of the windscreen that output would drop, when sun moves it drops,  when cloudy it drops, and at night disappears.  so say on an average cloudy UK summer day you may get 50milli amps for 6 hours ( if car was facing south ).  So really all the solar panel is doing is replacing the normal parasitic drain on the battery. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Waterproof-Automotive-Motorcycle-Powersports-Snowmobile/dp/B07DFD3RMS/ref=sr_1_7?dchild=1&keywords=solar+panel+for+cars&qid=1628496091&sr=8-7

The battery in the Fiesta is about 40 amp hour at 12 volt and only used for starting and auxilaries, the .    The average EV battery is now probably 60 to 120 Kilowatt hour - and is uses for everything on the car... You would need a fold-out solar panel 1/4 the size of a tennis court to even make a go at charging the EV battery ( which are often 400 to 600 volts,  maybe 800 volts soon ) - to get 1kw in strong direct sunshine ( 90 degree to panel surface ) needs about 6 to 7  square metres of panel area,  and the output of a panel is a sine wave, rising and dropping quite rapidly as the sun moves,  look at gridwatch and you will see that between October and March in UK the solar input to grid drops alarmingly, as it does on cloudy days.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on August 09, 2021, 11:10:55 AM
Ah, right, thanks, just thought I'd ask  :)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on August 09, 2021, 12:25:45 PM
Why has no manufacturer installed car roof solar panels to help keep both Hybrid or single electric batteries topped up ?

My neighbour rarely uses his car, last year he did 900 miles but he has a dash top small solar panel that trickle charges his 55 plate Fiesta and he's never had a problem.

Not directly relevant but our neighbours have spent their holiday money on a 10 year old Fiat Motor Home. Remarkably well equipped but that's by the by. It has solar panels on the roof to trickle charge the vehicles 2 batteries.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 09, 2021, 12:26:27 PM
Caught the tail end of a Bike Show programme on the telly this evening and the guy was raving about the new Harley Davidson Livewire. Now, this guy said he was a dyed in the wool petrol head. He builds engines and tunes engines and has oil and grease in his pores. But he loved the Livewire. Riding it as he liked he only got 100 miles range. With a nighttime thrash, he only managed 76 miles. And it starts at £29,000. However, what he said was, if you can afford it you are not looking for a daily driver or a long-range tourer, though he did some long trips and was surprised how many fast chargers were available. Even in Wales. It is just a beautiful thing to ride.



Quite an expensive toy is that,  I knew a bloke with his own business and a bit of cash that bought a Tesla  ( IIRC a Model S ) after the initial novelty wore off,  it stood in his garage unused and he carried on using his Jag Diesel SUV for his everyday needs.     He may even have bought the Tesla as a 'tax loss' for all I know !
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Bazzzer on August 10, 2021, 01:13:53 PM
I saw a "middle bit" of this programme last night, showing Guy Martin travelling from Grimsby to John o Groats and back in an electric car.  I think he said using electric power had cost him over £200, about 50% more than diesel would have cost.  Also, a significant proportion of his charging points were not working as intended (reduced or zero power available).

https://www.channel4.com/programmes/guy-martin-the-worlds-fastest-electric-car
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on August 10, 2021, 05:42:56 PM
Should EVs be zero CO2 rated? I think not if they are charged from the mains. This site estimates CO2 per kWh https://carbonintensity.org.uk/. Divide that number by number of miles per kWh and add about 10% for energy conversion losses. Zero rating should be reserved for vehicles configured to only charge directly from sun and/or wind which could mean that such vehicles don't closck up many miles during winter.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: embee on August 10, 2021, 07:24:19 PM
.....Divide that number by number of miles per kWh and add about 10% for energy conversion losses. ...
That's actually a false truth, if you get my drift.

Almost 50% of our electricity comes from burning gas, and a gas fired power station produces around 550g(eq)CO2/kWh. Any marginal demand increase comes from gas, so if you plug in your EV and all the renewables and nuclear are already being used (which they will be), then it will be charged by a gas power station at 550g/kWh (plus losses, let's say 600g/kWh).
A typical EV does 4mls/kWh, so that's 150g CO2/mile if powered by a gas station (or about 95g/km to make it easy to compare to ICE cars). A similar petrol car might be around 120g/km real world, ballpark 50mpg.

This is also the false truth about domestic gas boilers. Any marginal electricity produced by a gas power station used to heat your water will result in about twice the CO2 of a domestic A rated boiler. If we can get rid of all the gas power stations then we can start phasing out domestic boilers, but until then it's folly. Even an air sourced heat pump with a typical COP will only do just a little better than a domestic boiler for CO2, but will still cost you more to run (domestic electricity typically 4x gas per kWh).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on August 10, 2021, 10:53:10 PM
Should EVs be zero CO2 rated? I think not if they are charged from the mains. This site estimates CO2 per kWh https://carbonintensity.org.uk/. Divide that number by number of miles per kWh and add about 10% for energy conversion losses. Zero rating should be reserved for vehicles configured to only charge directly from sun and/or wind which could mean that such vehicles don't closck up many miles during winter.
If they are charged from the domestic mains they can be charged overnight at off-peak rates  when there is a low demand for electricity and therefore less demand for backup fossil fuel generation and there will  be less need to close down renewable sources.
There is also the possibility of vehicle to grid charging where vehicles can be used as a storage system for electricity.
https://www.ovoenergy.com/guides/electric-cars/vehicle-to-grid-technology
Zero rating is an incentive to encourage EV ownership. When EVs are more widely adopted the system for vehicle taxation will be changed away from being based on CO2 emissions.

I was surprised by your website at how much difference there was  in the generation mix between regions.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 11, 2021, 10:11:52 AM
200 miles of driving an EV, charged from fossil fuel electricity produces less CO2 than an ICE due to power station technology and efficiencies.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on August 11, 2021, 11:22:53 AM
I was surprised by your website at how much difference there was in the generation mix between regions.
Also a big variation according to time of day and the extent to which renewables can meet the total demand.

200 miles of driving an EV, charged from fossil fuel electricity produces less CO2 than an ICE due to power station technology and efficiencies.
Combined cycle gas turbine generation efficiency can get above 60% https://www.energylivenews.com/2018/11/06/work-underway-on-uks-most-efficient-ccgt-power-station/ . However, deduct network losses (~8%) and then battery losses (~another 8%) and you end up below 50%. Coal-fired generation, of which the UK has had about 1GW running most days this summer, is below 40% efficiency.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on August 11, 2021, 11:35:32 AM
I was surprised by your website at how much difference there was in the generation mix between regions.
Also a big variation according to time of day and the extent to which renewables can meet the total demand.
Thanks. I'll keep an eye on it.
With development of more renewables this will decrease.
Storage is the key.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: embee on August 11, 2021, 11:47:12 AM
200 miles of driving an EV, charged from fossil fuel electricity produces less CO2 than an ICE due to power station technology and efficiencies.
True, but not by as much as when the average CO2 from electricity generation is used as the comparator rather than the marginal rate gas fired power station CO2.
As per my ramblings earlier, all the renewable/nuclear output is used for the fixed consumption (industry/domestic), Any additional demand (charging EVs) comes from gas, full stop. Today's EV thus produces something like 3/4 the CO2 of an ICE vehicle, better but not the panacea the public are led to believe.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Bazzzer on August 11, 2021, 05:46:53 PM
If they are charged from the domestic mains they can be charged overnight at off-peak rates  when there is a low demand for electricity...

If millions are charging their batteries overnight, can you be sure that there will still be a "low demand for electricity"?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: hemming on August 11, 2021, 07:53:19 PM
Did anyone read an article on the Daily Telegraph website today which suggested it was more green to keep a diesel car than to buy a new car? If so did the item validate the proposition in your your view please?  I don't want to subscribe to to find out...
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on August 11, 2021, 08:37:51 PM
Did anyone read an article on the Daily Telegraph website today which suggested it was more green to keep a diesel car than to buy a new car? If so did the item validate the proposition in your your view please?  I don't want to subscribe to to find out...

I didn't read that article but I have read lots of other sources especially when I was actively considering getting an EV. One article I did see recently was a chap who had a 19 year old Saab and he asked whether it would be "greener" to retain that car rather than buying a new EV. His argument was that there are a lot of embodied emissions in any car, indeed slightly more in an EV. By purchasing a new car he would be effectively bringing a new car into the world (or contributing to the demand for such cars) and it would take many years for the embodied emissions to be paid down as it were. The EV expert he was talking to reached the entirely sensible conclusion that it all depended on how many miles the old car was doing. In this case it was only 3,000 a year so the argument for keeping the Saab was solid in his view. If he was doing an average mileage, say 9,000 per annum, the calculation might be different.

Embodied emissions is a disputed area. Mike Berners Lee makes the case that embodied emissions are frequently underestimated and that the CO2 impact of bringing a new vehicle - EV or ICE - is often underestimated because only factory emissions are taken into account but bringing a new car to market involves everything from mining the iron to the bosses company mobile phone.

I take the view that my mileage of 2,000 per annum (or thereabouts) in a small, newish petrol car makes any argument for me buying a new EV on environmental grounds null and void.

Old diesels are a different matter on air quality grounds.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 11, 2021, 08:40:52 PM
I would like an EV but not on environmental grounds.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on August 11, 2021, 08:49:06 PM
I would like an EV but not on environmental grounds.

I think I'm the same Jocko if truth be told. I drove my pal's 24 kwh Nissan Leaf a couple of years ago and the driving experience is just so much better, especially the instant torque.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on August 11, 2021, 09:23:16 PM
If they are charged from the domestic mains they can be charged overnight at off-peak rates  when there is a low demand for electricity...

If millions are charging their batteries overnight, can you be sure that there will still be a "low demand for electricity"?
A good point. The  objective is to even out the demand but there may have to be some smart metering involved if everybody wanted to charge at the same time
It would not be necessary to charge EVs every night or keep it topped up. How often do you refill your ICE?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on August 11, 2021, 09:38:10 PM
Did anyone read an article on the Daily Telegraph website today which suggested it was more green to keep a diesel car than to buy a new car? If so did the item validate the proposition in your your view please?  I don't want to subscribe to to find out...

I didn't read that article but I have read lots of other sources especially when I was actively considering getting an EV. One article I did see recently was a chap who had a 19 year old Saab and he asked whether it would be "greener" to retain that car rather than buying a new EV. His argument was that there are a lot of embodied emissions in any car, indeed slightly more in an EV. By purchasing a new car he would be effectively bringing a new car into the world (or contributing to the demand for such cars) and it would take many years for the embodied emissions to be paid down as it were. The EV expert he was talking to reached the entirely sensible conclusion that it all depended on how many miles the old car was doing. In this case it was only 3,000 a year so the argument for keeping the Saab was solid in his view. If he was doing an average mileage, say 9,000 per annum, the calculation might be different.

Embodied emissions is a disputed area. Mike Berners Lee makes the case that embodied emissions are frequently underestimated and that the CO2 impact of bringing a new vehicle - EV or ICE - is often underestimated because only factory emissions are taken into account but bringing a new car to market involves everything from mining the iron to the bosses company mobile phone.

I take the view that my mileage of 2,000 per annum (or thereabouts) in a small, newish petrol car makes any argument for me buying a new EV on environmental grounds null and void.

Old diesels are a different matter on air quality grounds.
That's effectively my way of thinking too.
Barring unforeseen circumstances, I've got no intention of selling the Jazz until it rusts away.
By then there may well be improvements in EVs and a bigger market in second hand EVs.
There again the Jazz might outlast me but if not my next car will be an EV.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on August 12, 2021, 12:34:27 PM
Recycling vehicles at the other end of the scale...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/technology-57901893

I wonder if there is a version of this work that can be done to regular vehicles at a sensible price?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on August 12, 2021, 08:38:31 PM
It would not be necessary to charge EVs every night or keep it topped up. How often do you refill your ICE?
How many vehicles have fuel tanks that needed refilling at 200 miles or less? My old Austin A35 was one example have had better range.

We can work out the extra load on the grid by taking the average daily miles driven, assuming 3.5 miles per kWh and an 8 hour charging period. https://www.racfoundation.org/motoring-faqs/mobility provides some basic numbers so, by my reckoning, assuming 35 million cars & van averaging 20 miles/day results in 200 GWh or electricity or 25 GWh over an 8 hour period. That excludes HGVs and buses.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on August 12, 2021, 10:57:19 PM
Jings that's an eye-opener. I keep thinking there's a flaw somewhere in the calculation but I haven't seen it yet.
There can't be 35 million cars on the road for 20 mls for 67 million people but I suppose it averages out. I can see me waking in the middle of the night with my head going round.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 13, 2021, 09:04:31 AM
It would not be necessary to charge EVs every night or keep it topped up. How often do you refill your ICE?
How many vehicles have fuel tanks that needed refilling at 200 miles or less? My old Austin A35 was one example have had better range.

We can work out the extra load on the grid by taking the average daily miles driven, assuming 3.5 miles per kWh and an 8 hour charging period. https://www.racfoundation.org/motoring-faqs/mobility provides some basic numbers so, by my reckoning, assuming 35 million cars & van averaging 20 miles/day results in 200 GWh or electricity or 25 GWh over an 8 hour period. That excludes HGVs and buses.

Add in the extra power required for heating ' all electric' houses and operating businesses without gas or fossil fuels.... better open some more coal mines....
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 13, 2021, 09:07:26 AM
The heaviest users of electricity round here are the petrochemical plants.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 13, 2021, 09:27:38 AM
The heaviest users of electricity round here are the petrochemical plants.

The clue is 'petrochemical' - oil not just for fuel, it is used for pretty much everything you use in our everyday life, fertiizer, plastics, paints, tarmac for roads,  medicines etc.. the list is endless.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: embee on August 13, 2021, 09:43:08 AM
..... It would not be necessary to charge EVs every night or keep it topped up. .....
I have just been pondering an EV for a short trip runaround, the only real candidate being an early Leaf (cost). They are almost all 24kWh, with a real world range of maybe 70mls max. If I went 15miles to pick something up or do a small job for someone (quite common), and returned home, that's 30mls. I wouldn't then consider venturing out again without recharging, meaning effectively recharging every time I used the car.
As/when bigger battery examples become affordable then maybe it would be practical.

I decided on a small ICE car instead .......... at about half the price.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimG on August 13, 2021, 01:09:46 PM
Before I bought my Crosstar on June 2021, I tried a Corsa electric and a BMW i3. Both cars super impressed with the responsiveness of the drive, the quietness and the general ambience. However, the BMW i3 for it's price when new is a non starter, nowhere near worth the £40000 odd.
What did sway me to get a petrol over electric is the fact that I do not have the capabilities of home charging as I live in a flat and discovered a few points that are never mentioned, otherwise I would have gone electric as the only long journey I do nowadays is around an 80 round trip now and again.
The problems that I have come to see are as follows.
1) I will always be starting from cold. (No prewarming on mains therefore less mileage)
2) I can only charge to 80% as I do not stay anywhere long enough for the batteries to charge for longer. (Take 20% off the range)
3) Continual rapid charging will shorten the battery life prematurely. (Lithium dendrites will form quickly)
So as I see it, Vauxhall says 209 mile range. Cold starting? Take 10 miles off. Real world range 150 in warm weather, in Britain??? Probably around 130 in winter if everything is hunky dory. Take 20% off and being generous leaves me with 100 miles.
Even now, I had convinced myself to get it, but, the final nail in the coffin was that after looking at an estimated range of 141 miles at the start and then spending around 20 miles on an enjoyable test drive, when I handed the car back, the car showed a range of 41 miles left. That is the reason I chose the Crosstar.
Electric are for the towns, cities, local journeys and home charging and will come as will hydrogen, but I'm sad to say, not in my driving lifetime I think.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: fashionphotography on August 13, 2021, 01:35:21 PM
may help if they whent back to basic equipment. no silly lights all over the dashboard like some damn spaceship and onboard computers draining the system. i remember watching an old top gear episode with a range test on electric cars inc the leaf.. they also had i think an old subaru brat pickup converted.. cant remember but think it won.. most likey due to a basic equipment level maybe ?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on August 13, 2021, 02:33:37 PM
may help if they whent back to basic equipment. no silly lights all over the dashboard like some damn spaceship and onboard computers draining the system. i remember watching an old top gear episode with a range test on electric cars inc the leaf.. they also had i think an old subaru brat pickup converted.. cant remember but think it won.. most likey due to a basic equipment level maybe ?

A modern electric car is run by computers.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 13, 2021, 02:43:17 PM
A modern electric car is run by computers.

Hope they don't shut down and reboot on the motorway due to 'windows updates' - and Uncle Bill Gates will always know exactly where you are and what you are doing.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on August 15, 2021, 09:01:47 AM
Why has no manufacturer installed car roof solar panels to help keep both Hybrid or single electric batteries topped up ? .

Here y’go:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-asia-58192468
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on August 15, 2021, 09:45:11 AM
 :)

Even though the maths don't seem to work, hence the stadium full of panels required post, I'm sure a car roof with solar panels would help. Even if an EV got say ~20+ miles extra between plugins it should help, and it would be free energy.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 17, 2021, 12:15:35 PM
I see a Tesla has mowed down 6 kids and a parent in a school playground. Car taken off for investigation.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on August 17, 2021, 06:11:18 PM
Also this about Tesla https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-58232137 .
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 26, 2021, 05:28:00 PM
Well we all knew it was coming,  and it is now being seriously discussed.

https://www.confused.com/on-the-road/cost-of-motoring/40-billion-ved-tax-black-hole?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter&utm_source=brandawareness&utm_term=20211025&utm_content=october_2021_newsletter
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on October 26, 2021, 05:40:13 PM
Once all vehicles are electric, or whatever, they could introduce a fixed price 'road tax' and issue small round discs you put in your windscreen to prove you've paid :D
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: embee on October 26, 2021, 07:17:59 PM
... but think of all that paper, and the trees!! Alternatively they could start using plastic for the discs, what could possibly go wrong?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 26, 2021, 09:59:30 PM
To me the only way to track where a car is and how many miles it has covered on which roads ( if some roads are going to be more expensive than others ) is GPS tracking, which has massive privacy issues.  But then if all roads are equally priced per mile and you get charged purely on annual mileage ( it would have to be 12 months in arrears ??? ) then this is totally unfair on people who live in remote rural areas compared to urban residents.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Neil Ives on October 26, 2021, 11:07:54 PM
In a future where all vehicles are electrically powered it would seem to be possible to have mass control of the vehicle's speed. On motorways in the UK for instance vehicles could be controlled to not exceed 70mph. If there was an obstruction or a traffic accident or sheep on the road, all vehicles would be slowed right down.

Also, automatic distancing could be implemented.

A vehicle reported stolen could easily be immobilised.

Police persuits would be a thing of the past; the police would just send a signal to the central control unit and the chased vehicle would glide to a halt, with the doors locked.

Are you scared yet?

I wonder if some of the gizmo's on modern cars, such as ACC, are being developed to get us used to these ideas.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 08, 2021, 10:48:34 AM
Just seen an article which asks the question 'will electric vehicles destroy the value of terraced houses ?'. Until the problem of on-street charging in crowded urban areas is solved it could destroy the value of terraced houses and most of the modern houses that are crammed together and do not have a garden, let alone a parking space ( they sometimes have a communal parking area with designated parking space near to them ).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Neil Ives on November 08, 2021, 11:00:14 AM
Just seen an article which asks the question 'will electric vehicles destroy the value of terraced houses ?'. Until the problem of on-street charging in crowded urban areas is solved it could destroy the value of terraced houses and most of the modern houses that are crammed together and do not have a garden, let alone a parking space ( they sometimes have a communal parking area with designated parking space near to them ).
In my opinion, the problem of charging points will be one of the reasons that fully electric vehicles will not completely take over. I have hopes for hydrogen as a fuel.

I was told that to have fast vehicle charging you need to have an expensive heavy-duty supply provided to the premesis; the normal domestic supply will not carry the current.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on November 08, 2021, 11:31:47 AM
Very true.

Only new builds will have the amperage wiring. I think the current 'boards fuse' is 60A and some fast chargers are 48A. Under the max but still a lot of heat may be generated, but I'm no expert.

I'd be quite happy with a 13A granny charger, assuming I get another car when they are only electric.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on November 08, 2021, 11:51:28 AM
This is just a transition stage. Before you know it, filling up with electrons will be just like filling up with petrol, at fuel stations. On street charging with cables across the pavement is clearly a non starter. I had my mate round yesterday who is working on this and he amazed me with the progress being made. Did you know there are over 200 electric car brands in China, and the biggest is bigger than Tesla? Within ten years, most cars will be electric and will come from China or Chinese companies. They will have 200 mile+ batteries and recharge in minutes.

Right now, the car that makes most sense to me is a plug in hybrid. No range anxiety and can spend the vast majority of it's time pooling around on EV and being recharged on my drive from a mains plug.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 08, 2021, 11:54:24 AM
This is just a transition stage. Before you know it, filling up with electrons will be just like filling up with petrol, at fuel stations. On street charging with cables across the pavement is clearly a non starter. I had my mate round yesterday who is working on this and he amazed me with the progress being made. Did you know there are over 200 electric car brands in China, and the biggest is bigger than Tesla? Within ten years, most cars will be electric and will come from China or Chinese companies. They will have 200 mile+ batteries and recharge in minutes.

Right now, the car that makes most sense to me is a plug in hybrid. No range anxiety and can spend the vast majority of it's time pooling around on EV and being recharged on my drive from a mains plug.

Quite ironic then that China gets most of its electricity from coal fired power stations, and no promise from them to reduce their usage before 2070,  same with India, Russia etc.. 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on November 08, 2021, 11:59:11 AM
Quite ironic then that China gets most of its electricity from coal fired power stations, and no promise from them to reduce their usage before 2070,  same with India, Russia etc..
There was a time, my friend told me, that they were completing a new coal fired power station every week! That is over. They are now investing heavily in renewables. They just aren't telling us. He visits China regularly and is at the heart of electromotive power and research, partly for your favourite car company, BMW.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 08, 2021, 12:03:14 PM
Quite ironic then that China gets most of its electricity from coal fired power stations, and no promise from them to reduce their usage before 2070,  same with India, Russia etc..
There was a time, my friend told me, that they were completing a new coal fired power station every week! That is over. They are now investing heavily in renewables. They just aren't telling us. He visits China regularly and is at the heart of electromotive power and research, partly for your favourite car company, BMW.

Yeah and the Covid virus was not made in Wuhan  :-X
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on November 08, 2021, 12:44:39 PM
Are the Chinese targets any more or less realistic/believable than those being discussed at COP26?

https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-change/news/cop26-glasgow-climate-latest-today-b1953370.html

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/nov/08/china-calls-for-concrete-action-not-distant-targets-in-last-week-of-cop26

“The world has enough for everyone's need, but not enough for everyone's greed.”
― Mahatma Gandhi
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on November 08, 2021, 01:27:16 PM

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/nov/08/china-calls-for-concrete-action-not-distant-targets-in-last-week-of-cop26


Great article. Really enlightening and adds a lot to what my Professor friend was saying. China is very misunderstood.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 08, 2021, 01:59:49 PM

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/nov/08/china-calls-for-concrete-action-not-distant-targets-in-last-week-of-cop26


Great article. Really enlightening and adds a lot to what my Professor friend was saying. China is very misunderstood.

What China says for western consumption and what China does are entirely different things. When I worked in Australia we used to sell equipment to China and had plenty to do with the Chinese,  I have yet to meet a more slippery bunch, apparently lying is not considered wrong in China, especially where the economy and cutting pollution clash.

Chinese also shamelessly spy on the west and undermine its institutions.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Hugh R on November 08, 2021, 02:38:45 PM
Right now, the car that makes most sense to me is a plug in hybrid. No range anxiety and can spend the vast majority of it's time pooling around on EV and being recharged on my drive from a mains plug.

Lucky old you - having a driveway and a mains plug.  Lots of us don't - and that may be one of the biggest obstacles against buying an EV (apart from the current price.)
Interesting if someone knows the average number of GB households with driveways against those houses, flats etc. without. 
Not to mention when my street will be up and running with chargers at every parking space - or even at a lamp-post or two.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on November 08, 2021, 02:47:47 PM

What China says for western consumption and what China does are entirely different things.


I think a similar lack of honesty applies to the western world.

The Chinese have been developing renewables at a greater rate than the West.
Once it becomes apparent economically and politically that the future lies in renewables the West will find it difficult to catch up.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/05/china-is-a-renewable-energy-champion-but-its-time-for-a-new-approach/

https://www.weforum.org/whitepapers/accelerating-sustainable-energy-innovation (pdf)

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 08, 2021, 02:48:54 PM
Very true.

Only new builds will have the amperage wiring. I think the current 'boards fuse' is 60A and some fast chargers are 48A. Under the max but still a lot of heat may be generated, but I'm no expert.

I'd be quite happy with a 13A granny charger, assuming I get another car when they are only electric.

Bit of a long story but we had our electrics assessed for a smart meter recently. A lot of work needed, some at my expense (ie removal of kitchen cabinet OR digging up a brand new drive). We didn't go ahead but it seems to get our house ready for a charge point might be £2000 to £3000.

Discussing this with a friend of a friend. This chap worked for Bentley on energy issues and also served on a committee advising government - he is a physicist by training. I asked him about the scare stories around granny cables and he said that that was exactly what they were, scare stories. Issues have arisen when people have used extension leads and not unravelled them (the heat builds up and can be a fire hazard) but he said you can purchase heavy duty leads and, if unravelled, they were fine. Granny cables themselves have a mechanism which causes them to trip out if they get too hot. He then said he used a granny cable himself despite having a charge point. He said they did a low mileage and a couple of trickle charges a week were adequate and better for the battery.

My son-in-law, a qualified electrician, also said that a granny cable was fine if used correctly. He recommended having a spur off one of the 13 amp plugs at the front of the house and  getting a waterproof power point (commando?). He had earlier told me that the cable run from our consumer unit was not ideal.

So granny cables are fine, safe and ideal for low mileage users. The problem around terraced houses and apartments is a different matter altogether.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on November 08, 2021, 03:12:32 PM
Why did they perform a full assessment for a smart meter ?

Round me they've just swapped meters.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 08, 2021, 03:28:09 PM
Why did they perform a full assessment for a smart meter ?

Round me they've just swapped meters.

Complicated - older property for a start but the main stumbling block derives from when the present kitchen was installed. The current electricity meter is attached to the back panel of a kitchen cabinet. The other issue was the age of the main fuse, and, indeed the rating. The installation was described as "non standard" although I'm assured it is safe.

The options were as described above, remove the kitchen cabinet OR dig up the drive. This was to enable them to isolate the power inlet - not just a matter of turning the power off at the consumer unit. The drive option would have been attractive if we hadn't just shelled out £9k for a new one because the meter would then have been mounted on the outside wall in a cabinet (we had this in our previous house - a new build).

Too much hassle so I have binned the idea.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on November 08, 2021, 03:32:44 PM
Ah, got ya.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on November 08, 2021, 04:26:47 PM
Right now, the car that makes most sense to me is a plug in hybrid. No range anxiety and can spend the vast majority of it's time pooling around on EV and being recharged on my drive from a mains plug.

Lucky old you - having a driveway and a mains plug.  Lots of us don't - and that may be one of the biggest obstacles against buying an EV (apart from the current price.)
Interesting if someone knows the average number of GB households with driveways against those houses, flats etc. without. 
Not to mention when my street will be up and running with chargers at every parking space - or even at a lamp-post or two.

Did you read the rest of my post?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: R2D3 on November 08, 2021, 04:30:43 PM
"What China says for western consumption and what China does are entirely different things. When I worked in Australia we used to sell equipment to China and had plenty to do with the Chinese,  I have yet to meet a more slippery bunch, apparently lying is not considered wrong in China, especially where the economy and cutting pollution clash. "

So no different from our present Government.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 08, 2021, 04:42:16 PM
"What China says for western consumption and what China does are entirely different things. When I worked in Australia we used to sell equipment to China and had plenty to do with the Chinese,  I have yet to meet a more slippery bunch, apparently lying is not considered wrong in China, especially where the economy and cutting pollution clash. "

So no different from our present Government.

Just be thankful you do not live in China....
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on November 08, 2021, 04:59:39 PM
Just be thankful you do not live in China....
When was the last time you went to China Culzean? When was it you worked with them?

There are, of course, huge cultural differences. But in most cases, they just want the same as we do.

You are so distrustful of just about every country other than the UK, and yet we are one of the shadiest nations around, with an awful government and a history of empire. We are not the shining example we think we are and we can not fix the world on our own, or disconnect from it and think 'I'm alright Jack!' That is just sticking our heads in the sand.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Hugh R on November 08, 2021, 07:22:09 PM
Right now, the car that makes most sense to me is a plug in hybrid. No range anxiety and can spend the vast majority of it's time pooling around on EV and being recharged on my drive from a mains plug.

Lucky old you - having a driveway and a mains plug.  Lots of us don't - and that may be one of the biggest obstacles against buying an EV (apart from the current price.)
Interesting if someone knows the average number of GB households with driveways against those houses, flats etc. without. 
Not to mention when my street will be up and running with chargers at every parking space - or even at a lamp-post or two.
Did you read the rest of my post?
Yes I did Richard!  And great if EV's are the norm from China, Japan (or wherever) in ten years time - but that still may not solve the GB situation of charging those EV's when they get here - or am I being pessimistic?!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on November 08, 2021, 07:33:16 PM
Yes I did Richard!  And great if EV's are the norm from China, Japan (or wherever) in ten years time - but that still may not solve the GB situation of charging those EV's when they get here - or am I being pessimistic?!
I meant the part about on street charging not going to happen. It is too expensive, a short term fix and completely impractical with cables everywhere for people to trip over and bikes to run into. I think better batteries, shorter charging times etc. will negate the need for a national network on every street.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 08, 2021, 08:14:43 PM
I am getting a new consumer unit fitted in early December, not for an EV charging point but it will allow for one to be fitted. A Granny cable would suit me fine. The last time I filled my tank was the 30th of September and I still have more than half a tank left (and I am not in lockdown). The longest trip I have had recently was 17 miles. Any EV would be right for me.
Looks like Rolls Royce will be getting the finance for its small nuclear reactor programme. The government will give them £210M if private finance does the same and that should be in place this week.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59201945 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59201945)
With regard to China, I recommend anyone interested to read "Tiger Head, Snake Tails" by Jonathan Fenby.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on November 09, 2021, 04:08:38 AM
Going slightly off topic, there was a news item earlier this week that referenced a street poll.

Out of 1,000 people questioned, 100% were against being forced to replace their current boiler for a heat pump. They said, nearer the time, any political party that continued down the heat pump route would not get there vote.

 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on November 09, 2021, 07:35:34 AM
Going slightly off topic, there was a news item earlier this week that referenced a street poll.

Out of 1,000 people questioned, 100% were against being forced to replace their current boiler for a heat pump. They said, nearer the time, any political party that continued down the heat pump route would not get there vote.

Yeah right, these “surveys” are great aren’t they? Without any sort of source or attribution this is fake news.

Actually, I’ve not seen anything suggesting anyone’s going to be forced to replace a boiler with a heat pump. But existing boilers have a finite life, and when the time comes to replace them there’ll only be green alternatives (which may be heat pumps, electric boilers, electric radiators, hydrogen, or something else). So the consumer will always have a choice; whatever happens though, it seem clear that energy is going to be more expensive in future. And why not, if by paying more humanity has a better chance of surviving climate change? And ... that’s Culzean’s cue!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on November 09, 2021, 07:40:01 AM
The person who gave out the poll information was Richard Tice. A respected ex MEP.

Further statements made on the item were that heat pumps are noisy, less efficient so will cost more to run.

Please don't assume everything you disagree with is fake.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 09, 2021, 08:30:49 AM
Going slightly off topic, there was a news item earlier this week that referenced a street poll.

Out of 1,000 people questioned, 100% were against being forced to replace their current boiler for a heat pump. They said, nearer the time, any political party that continued down the heat pump route would not get there vote.

This zero carbon malarkey is going to be Doris Johnson's 'poll tax' -  Rumour has it that he is scared stiff of the 'Duchess of Downing Street'  and the zero carbon stuff is her idea.  Un-elected people setting government policy does not go down well with voters, a bit like Cummings.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on November 09, 2021, 08:46:41 AM
Je ne dis plus rien.    ::)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Neil Ives on November 09, 2021, 09:38:27 AM
Je ne dis plus rien.    ::)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on November 09, 2021, 09:39:15 AM
The person who gave out the poll information was Richard Tice. A respected ex MEP.

Further statements made on the item were that heat pumps are noisy, less efficient so will cost more to run.

Please don't assume everything you disagree with is fake.

I didn't say that I assume anything I disagree with is fake. But I regard unattributed statements, along the lines of "A bloke said ...", with suspicion. I just feel it's important any discussion anywhere is soundly based on supportable evidence (by quoting reputable sources) rather than on supposition and rumour.

Thanks for clarifying the source, I know nothing about Mr Tice but his Wikipedia entry suggests he holds views with which I disagree (but they are his views so he is entitled to them). Moreover the organisations he supports are not (IMHO) renowned for balanced objective reporting, just like most other political groupings with their own agendas.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on November 09, 2021, 10:05:34 AM
Je ne dis plus rien.    ::)
My intended translation of "je ne dis plus rien"  -------"I'm saying nothing again." ( with reference to a previous spat with Zzaj)

However I've just read Mr Tice's article in  the Express and find his views at odds with all I believe.
(except I don't like the idea of heat pumps as a catch-all solution).
I feel this is getting well away from the original thread on electric cars.





Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on November 09, 2021, 10:38:34 AM
I think there is a separate thread on all things to do with energy generation, zero carbon etc. Let's keep this one about electric cars shall we? Assuming there will be electric around to charge them.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: embee on November 09, 2021, 11:32:58 AM
.....So the consumer will always have a choice; .......
That's a bit like the restaurant menu with roast beef, barbecued pork, lamb cutlets, chicken kiev, and there is a vegetarian option ....... they can **** off.

I welcome action to reduce the deterioration in conditions, but there's always a risk of throwing baby out with the bath water. Measured moderation unfortunately doesn't make good sound-bites and tabloid headlines.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 09, 2021, 12:51:51 PM
I am getting a new consumer unit fitted in early December, not for an EV charging point but it will allow for one to be fitted. A Granny cable would suit me fine. The last time I filled my tank was the 30th of September and I still have more than half a tank left (and I am not in lockdown). The longest trip I have had recently was 17 miles. Any EV would be right for me.
Looks like Rolls Royce will be getting the finance for its small nuclear reactor programme. The government will give them £210M if private finance does the same and that should be in place this week.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59201945 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59201945)
With regard to China, I recommend anyone interested to read "Tiger Head, Snake Tails" by Jonathan Fenby.

Just on the granny cable thing (discussed in my post above) I entered into a bit of a discussion on Speak EV a few months back. Very helpful reply from a chap who is using a granny cable as his default option. He is also able to take advantage of low electricity prices at night by using the car's timer (I suspect he has a Nissan Leaf because not all cars have timers).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 09, 2021, 07:01:29 PM
I didn't think there was any difference in the price of electricity, day to night unless you have an off-peak tariff. My last house had off-peak heating and water heating but you had to be connected to that circuit to benefit and you had no control over when it came on. You could put a socket into the off-peak circuit and charge from there overnight.
Now I have a Smart Meter, but as far as I am aware, all my usage is charged at the same rate, day or night.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 10, 2021, 08:14:08 AM
I didn't think there was any difference in the price of electricity, day to night unless you have an off-peak tariff. My last house had off-peak heating and water heating but you had to be connected to that circuit to benefit and you had no control over when it came on. You could put a socket into the off-peak circuit and charge from there overnight.
Now I have a Smart Meter, but as far as I am aware, all my usage is charged at the same rate, day or night.

Not having a variable tariff, with cheaper rate at off-peak was a huge own-goal for smart meter roll-out,  but knowing sneaky energy supply companies they would leave base tariff the same and increase prices at peak times  :o   Mind you solar goes out of use at night by default, and wind often goes AWOL,  so maybe they need every amp they can get and want to discourage rather than encourage people to use more at certain times.  The whole idea of the EU plans to scrap 3KW kettles and replace them with 500watt ones (LOL ) was to spread the load over a longer period... didn't save any electricity but you just had to waste more time waiting and could no longer rely on kettle boiling during an advert break on TV.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on November 10, 2021, 08:30:04 AM
My daughter has dual tariff as she's all electric (or the house is)

It's a single meter and has 2 separate readings. At about 23:00 it clicks over to off-peak and about 06:00 it clicks back to peak. Each month she enters both readings and gets billed accordingly at each rate.

She's researched and a smart meter can detect your usage and times and you will be billed accordingly.

However ........ what if it breaks or you need to change supplier ? Probably peak rate 24x7 till they sort it.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on November 10, 2021, 08:38:27 AM
Now I have a Smart Meter, but as far as I am aware, all my usage is charged at the same rate, day or night.
However, smart meters make it easy to change to a time of use tariff such as https://octopus.energy/go/ or https://octopus.energy/agile/ as all that needs to be done is to tell a computer how to charge for each for each half hourly slice of electricity. When I switched to the Octopus Go tariff my request was submitted in the afternoon and the change was implemented at midnight.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 10, 2021, 10:32:06 AM
I didn't think there was any difference in the price of electricity, day to night unless you have an off-peak tariff. My last house had off-peak heating and water heating but you had to be connected to that circuit to benefit and you had no control over when it came on. You could put a socket into the off-peak circuit and charge from there overnight.
Now I have a Smart Meter, but as far as I am aware, all my usage is charged at the same rate, day or night.

I am not completely sure how it works but our company, Octopus Energy, have a low rate tariff specifically for EV charging in the small hours. I haven't gone as far as asking them how to apply for it but I gather it's straightforward.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 10, 2021, 04:26:33 PM
It's a single meter and has 2 separate readings. At about 23:00 it clicks over to off-peak and about 06:00 it clicks back to peak. Each month she enters both readings and gets billed accordingly at each rate.
Yhat is what I had but as far as I was aware it was only the storage radiators and water heater that was charged at the low rate. maybe it all was! What I do know is the storage radiators only got energy during the off-peak hours.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on November 10, 2021, 04:43:15 PM
That is what I had but as far as I was aware it was only the storage radiators and water heater that was charged at the low rate. maybe it all was! What I do know is the storage radiators only got energy during the off-peak hours.
If you've got those and a smart meter then you need make sure that you are on appropriate tariff so you get cheaper electricity for the period when they are switched on. Any electricity used by other devices in the house also benefit from the cheaper power which is better for the customer than the non-smart dual meter setup.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on November 10, 2021, 04:49:29 PM
Correct.

The way hers is wired, the storage heaters can only be charged off peak, but the rest of the house is also off-peak.

Her hot water is controlled by a Horstmann7 timer user set to only heat the water off-peak unless she hits the boost button..


 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 10, 2021, 06:20:37 PM
Exactly the same as mine was. My electricity Direct Debit was £179 per month. hate to think what it might have been if it was;t for the off-peak then. Glad to be out of there.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on November 10, 2021, 10:37:53 PM

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/nov/08/china-calls-for-concrete-action-not-distant-targets-in-last-week-of-cop26


Great article. Really enlightening and adds a lot to what my Professor friend was saying. China is very misunderstood.

Hope on the horizon?

https://news.sky.com/story/cop26-us-and-china-announce-unexpected-declaration-to-work-together-on-climate-change-measures-12465048

"'While areas of real difference separate the two countries, says Secretary Kerry, ‘we can cooperate on the climate crisis’

https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-change/news/us-china-cop26-glasgow-agreement-b1955373.html

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on November 22, 2021, 08:25:13 AM
Compulsory charging points.
https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/law-force-developers-install-electric-223000681.html

"New homes in England will have to have electric vehicle charging points installed as standard by law from next year, in a major bid to try and move drivers away from petrol and diesel cars."
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on November 22, 2021, 08:39:59 AM
Most of the new builds I see are multi storey so best of luck with that one.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 22, 2021, 09:01:39 AM
Compulsory charging points.
https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/law-force-developers-install-electric-223000681.html

"New homes in England will have to have electric vehicle charging points installed as standard by law from next year, in a major bid to try and move drivers away from petrol and diesel cars."

They are already raising the cost of ICE fuels to make EV look more attractive,  they have to do it because electricity prices are going up....

In UK we pay VAT on the total price AFTER duty is added to cost of fuel, otherwise known as 'double dipping'.

https://www.askthecarexpert.com/fuel-tax/
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on November 22, 2021, 10:24:28 AM
Good luck with home charging when power cuts come and you have a smart meter.

It is future National Grid policy to switch off fast charging at home via the Smart Meter to prevent blackouts.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Neil Ives on November 22, 2021, 10:26:24 AM
Most of the new builds I see are multi storey so best of luck with that one.
Extension leads?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 22, 2021, 10:36:26 AM
Most of the new builds I see are multi storey so best of luck with that one.
Extension leads?

I can see neigbours sneaking down in middle of night to plug their cars into your extension lead, then swapping it back before you get up, and you will wonder why your car didn't charge.... :o
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on November 22, 2021, 10:41:51 AM
Would he not have been better to legislate that new houses not be built on flood plains or that new houses have solar panels and better standards of insulation?

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/nov/22/more-than-5000-homes-in-england-approved-to-be-built-in-flood-zones

Added link
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 22, 2021, 11:06:53 AM
Would he not have been better to legislate that new houses not be built on flood plains or that new houses have solar panels and better standards of insulation?

Solar power has an availability factor of 10% in UK, ie not viable - UK has 14GW of solar installed but rarely sees more than 4GW for 8 hours a day in high summer, and in winter, well forget it.  The government say we should all have 300mm of insulation in our lofts ( making them unusable as anything other than a wasted space at the top of your house. I posted a graph about a week ago ( attached again to this post ) that plotted the insulating value against thickness of insulation there was insignificant gain between 150mm and 300mm and also very little gain above 100mm - so who suggested 300mm - the lobbyists and party donors from insulation companies ?  We have 140mm insulation boarded over with 18mm chipboard in our loft,  making the insulation very efficient and allowing loft to be useful. Some of our neighbours got cavity insulation under government scheme but have seen little or no saving in energy bills but a rise in dampness.  The latest recommendation ( read - 'legal requirement' ) is to have windows with trickle vents and 10mm gap under all interior doors,  so save a little energy by having cavities blocked up, making the house damper, then try to get rid of dampness by allowing cold air to blow through your house... madness.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 22, 2021, 11:33:51 AM
Most of the new builds I see are multi storey so best of luck with that one.

40% don't have off road parking so this is a real issue and I'm far from sure it's being addressed. I was involved in an exchange on a Facebook page recently when I was accused of being negative after querying one post saying "most people charge at home" - at present that is almost certainly true because the majority, not all, but a majority of current EV owners tend to be better off and resident in detached houses. Somebody put up a post saying "this has been sorted" and showed a picture of some pavement mounted device. It hasn't been sorted and pavement charging in in its infancy with a lot of issues to be sorted. My daughter, just one example, has no off street parking and she can't always park outside her house. She is resigned to charging at work when/if her college installs points. They'll need a lot of points.

EV evangelists always like to say that there are more EV charge points than petrol stations and there are but they fail to take into account that a petrol station will typically have 15 to 20 hoses whereas an EV charge station might only have 2 points. I have seen one estimate that we will need several million public charge points.

We are not even close to where we need to be. I accept things might look different towards the end of the decade but I sense a complacency in government circles.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on November 22, 2021, 11:47:37 AM
Maybe "complacent" is not quite strong enough. ::)

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson-loses-place-rambles-25515669

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/nov/22/boris-johnson-praises-peppa-pig-and-loses-place-in-rambling-speech

Added  Guardian link (It had more Peppa Pig coverage than the Independent one)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 22, 2021, 12:10:37 PM
Most of the new builds I see are multi storey so best of luck with that one.

40% don't have off road parking so this is a real issue and I'm far from sure it's being addressed. I was involved in an exchange on a Facebook page recently when I was accused of being negative after querying one post saying "most people charge at home" - at present that is almost certainly true because the majority, not all, but a majority of current EV owners tend to be better off and resident in detached houses. Somebody put up a post saying "this has been sorted" and showed a picture of some pavement mounted device. It hasn't been sorted and pavement charging in in its infancy with a lot of issues to be sorted. My daughter, just one example, has no off street parking and she can't always park outside her house. She is resigned to charging at work when/if her college installs points. They'll need a lot of points.

EV evangelists always like to say that there are more EV charge points than petrol stations and there are but they fail to take into account that a petrol station will typically have 15 to 20 hoses whereas an EV charge station might only have 2 points. I have seen one estimate that we will need several million public charge points.

We are not even close to where we need to be. I accept things might look different towards the end of the decade but I sense a complacency in government circles.

All the government zero-carbon subsidy schemes so far have been for better off people.  The EV subsidy helped better off people ( the only ones who could afford to buy EV at £60K  ).  The heatpump subsidy will benefit rich people because once again they are the only ones to be able to afford the useless over-hyped tech. Over-generous solar panel feed in tariffs benefitted the better off.  Trouble is it is poorer taxpayers who cannot afford the stuff who are subsidising the better off...
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on November 22, 2021, 12:13:47 PM
Would he not have been better to legislate that new houses not be built on flood plains or that new houses have solar panels and better standards of insulation?

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/nov/22/more-than-5000-homes-in-england-approved-to-be-built-in-flood-zones

Added link

Logic does not apply when you make decisions in 5 minutes after you don't read your brief.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on November 22, 2021, 12:16:32 PM
Most of the new builds I see are multi storey so best of luck with that one.

40% don't have off road parking so this is a real issue and I'm far from sure it's being addressed. I was involved in an exchange on a Facebook page recently when I was accused of being negative after querying one post saying "most people charge at home" - at present that is almost certainly true because the majority, not all, but a majority of current EV owners tend to be better off and resident in detached houses. Somebody put up a post saying "this has been sorted" and showed a picture of some pavement mounted device. It hasn't been sorted and pavement charging in in its infancy with a lot of issues to be sorted. My daughter, just one example, has no off street parking and she can't always park outside her house. She is resigned to charging at work when/if her college installs points. They'll need a lot of points.

EV evangelists always like to say that there are more EV charge points than petrol stations and there are but they fail to take into account that a petrol station will typically have 15 to 20 hoses whereas an EV charge station might only have 2 points. I have seen one estimate that we will need several million public charge points.

We are not even close to where we need to be. I accept things might look different towards the end of the decade but I sense a complacency in government circles.

Fully agree

I think you'll need to let the FB group natter on and at some appropriate time you may be able to ....... 'told you so'
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on November 22, 2021, 12:17:38 PM

All the government zero-carbon subsidy schemes so far have been for better off people. 

Eureka!

All the government has done so far has been for better off people.
FTFY

and not just any better off people.
Just their pals.  >:(

Edit added explanation
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 22, 2021, 02:42:46 PM
Around here most new builds have solar panels as standard under a scheme that incentivises builders to install them to get planning permission. Multi-storey blocks must have a minimum number of designated parking spaces so it is possible to force developers to install pay as you charge points in these spaces. All the multi-storey blocks being built beside me (the "new" tenements as I describe them) are private flats and have a parking space for each home with those lockable posts to prevent visitors from using them.
What nobody has mentioned is new-build supermarkets, workplaces and buildings undergoing major renovations will also come under the new law.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 01, 2021, 04:14:30 PM
Nissan investing over £13billion in UK,  meanwhile over in Germany Tesla struggling to build their gigafactory in the face of Red tape and Germanys favourite word, regulations... ( bureaucracy )... bet Musk wishes he had chosen UK

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/nissan-stresses-importance-uk-plant-112027109.html

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Neil Ives on December 01, 2021, 04:22:33 PM
This seems strange considering that Nissan is half owned by Renault. You would think that post Brexit they'd be making cars in France. I suppose us UK taxpayers have sweetened the reasons to stay in the UK.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jayt43 on December 01, 2021, 05:40:15 PM
Nissan investing over £13billion in UK, meanwhile over in Germany Tesla struggling to build their gigafactory in the face of Red tape and Germanys favourite word, regulations... ( bureaucracy )... bet Musk wishes he had chosen UK

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/nissan-stresses-importance-uk-plant-112027109.html

Please actually READ the article you yourself posted. It says Nissan announces a £13 billion investment in EVs GLOBALLY over the next 5 years. NOT solely in the UK.

Instead, the EV36zero build hub ( https://global.nissannews.com/en/releases/210701-03-e ) totals £1 billion in UK investment of which £423 million will be set aside to produce a new-generation crossover, with the remainder being the Envision AESC battery Gigafactory. Here's a big infographic if that makes it easier to understand: http://articles.nissannews.com/hidden_posts/EV36Zero_Infographic.pdf

Meanwhile, the somewhat larger Tesla investment (ranging from $4 billion - $6.9 billion, depending upon whether you believe Wikipedia or Reuters) is nearing completion.

As the site partly overlaps a drinking water protection zone and borders on a nature reserve, there have certainly been objections from locals and environmentalists, of which the final round was heard on November 22nd.

So, currently the site has preliminary construction permits, but can only open after receiving its final production permits (expected December or January 2022).

Therefore, when you say "struggling to build", that's not entirely true...


Largely piping remains to be completed (as objections centred around waste from the plant).

As for German bureaucracy, yes, you can certainly cite the new Berlin Airport as a prime example! But equally the words HS2 are an equivalent example in the UK. Maybe I could also throw Crossrail 2 into the mix...

Presumably along with your thoughts on Covid, you are also a Brexiteer. I respect your views on both. However, the problem with Brexit success stories so far is that they're hard to find. Seemingly to the point that you're re-writing articles to claim some sort of UK victory over the nasty Germans.

However, the feeling in Europe is that Brexit is done, the UK made a choice and that's fine - whichever way. But we'll adjust accordingly and ignore / bypass the UK where necessary (neatly summed up by the following):

https://theloadstar.com/brexit-proves-to-be-a-boon-for-ireland-europe-direct-services/

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 04, 2021, 06:26:41 PM
Watched a piece on 5th Gear Recharged last night and they did a comparison between the running costs of a Vauxhall Astra ICE and an Astra EV.
They took 4 years PCP, the most common way of getting a new car these days, 7,500 miles a year which is the average mileage covered and dealer servicing. They took EV charging at home but just at regular tariff. Over the four years, the EV was the cheaper option of the two. And if you have a cheap overnight rate it is even more of a bonus in favour of the EV.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest9236 on December 05, 2021, 09:00:59 AM
Watched a piece on 5th Gear Recharged last night and they did a comparison between the running costs of a Vauxhall Astra ICE and an Astra EV.
They took 4 years PCP, the most common way of getting a new car these days, 7,500 miles a year which is the average mileage covered and dealer servicing. They took EV charging at home but just at regular tariff. Over the four years, the EV was the cheaper option of the two. And if you have a cheap overnight rate it is even more of a bonus in favour of the EV.

Assuming you have enough electricity available on demand.
 The Astra ICE would have been of much more use recently in the areas without electricity, some poor souls are STILL without due to Storms etc that happen very frequently and thus so will the availability of electricity.??!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jayt43 on December 05, 2021, 09:11:39 AM
Watched a piece on 5th Gear Recharged last night and they did a comparison between the running costs of a Vauxhall Astra ICE and an Astra EV.
They took 4 years PCP, the most common way of getting a new car these days, 7,500 miles a year which is the average mileage covered and dealer servicing. They took EV charging at home but just at regular tariff. Over the four years, the EV was the cheaper option of the two. And if you have a cheap overnight rate it is even more of a bonus in favour of the EV.

Assuming you have enough electricity available on demand.
 The Astra ICE would have been of much more use recently in the areas without electricity, some poor souls are STILL without due to Storms etc that happen very frequently and thus so will the availability of electricity.??!

Can also be written as:

"Assuming you have enough petrol available on demand. The Astra EV would have been of much more use recently in the areas without petrol, some poor souls are STILL queuing for hours to fuel up"
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest9236 on December 05, 2021, 03:37:59 PM
Watched a piece on 5th Gear Recharged last night and they did a comparison between the running costs of a Vauxhall Astra ICE and an Astra EV.
They took 4 years PCP, the most common way of getting a new car these days, 7,500 miles a year which is the average mileage covered and dealer servicing. They took EV charging at home but just at regular tariff. Over the four years, the EV was the cheaper option of the two. And if you have a cheap overnight rate it is even more of a bonus in favour of the EV.
[/quote



Assuming you have enough electricity available on demand.
 The Astra ICE would have been of much more use recently in the areas without electricity, some poor souls are STILL without due to Storms etc that happen very frequently and thus so will the availability of electricity.??!

Can also be written as:

"Assuming you have enough petrol available on demand. The Astra EV would have been of much more use recently in the areas without petrol, some poor souls are STILL queuing for hours to fuel up"

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 05, 2021, 03:44:09 PM
The government has said there will be no VED on EVs until at least 2024.
The saving described on Fifth Gear was not on cheap rate electricity but on a standard tariff.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jayt43 on December 05, 2021, 04:04:08 PM
Edited below. Sorry.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jayt43 on December 05, 2021, 04:04:47 PM

Thank you for your opinions however you seem to be using my words in the wrong context and a certain dose of sarcasm to boot. As you appear not a resident of England and therefore do not share the thoughts of most sensible people who reside here Perhaps your interest lies elsewhere.


No. Simply showing that the same argument can be applied to EVs in light of the recent petrol shortages in the UK.

Also, dangerous to assume about my background. I'm a British citizen who spends most of my time in Hungary nowadays but still have family in the UK. I think that makes me - to a degree - eligible to comment, particularly as I keep up with current events.

I would also argue that my thought processes lie within the spectrum of "most sensible" people and - as this is an interesting thread - I might care to comment from time to time.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on December 05, 2021, 08:04:27 PM
I can recall very few real petrol shortgaes in the UK - apart from panic buying. Suez in 1956 and Opec early 1970s are the only two. The local panic buying earlier this year was nothing by comparison.

I can, however, recall annual  electricity blackoouts in the 1980s and 1990s locally  - due to local cabling issues now resolved - one large one in the past five  years affected large parts of the country and of course nationwide blackouts during the early 1970s due to the miners' strikes when Edward Heath was PM.

Strangely enough no-one mentions these when EV s are discussed.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 06, 2021, 09:52:01 AM

Thank you for your opinions however you seem to be using my words in the wrong context and a certain dose of sarcasm to boot. As you appear not a resident of England and therefore do not share the thoughts of most sensible people who reside here Perhaps your interest lies elsewhere.


No. Simply showing that the same argument can be applied to EVs in light of the recent petrol shortages in the UK.

Also, dangerous to assume about my background. I'm a British citizen who spends most of my time in Hungary nowadays but still have family in the UK. I think that makes me - to a degree - eligible to comment, particularly as I keep up with current events.

I would also argue that my thought processes lie within the spectrum of "most sensible" people and - as this is an interesting thread - I might care to comment from time to time.

We also have a shortage of electricity in UK ( are still running Biomass and coal to keep up, while importing nuclear generated electricity from France ), with prices rising by the day.... the recent rises in ICE fuels may well be planned to make electric vehicles look more attractive.  The duty on Petrol and Diesel in UK is about £0.60 per litre, and then VAT is 20% on the combined price of fuel + duty - if it wanted to the UK government could offset any price rises in crude fairly easily by reducing it massive levy on fuel, but it suits its purpose not to, to make EV economics look better in face of rising electricity costs.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on December 06, 2021, 11:09:07 AM
The recent rise in ICE fuels is due solely to oil prices where demand has increased post Covid shutdowns. It is now correcting and prices were c10% down from their peak on oil.

see https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/brent-crude-oil

No conspiracy theories needed.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 06, 2021, 02:26:31 PM
The recent rise in ICE fuels is due solely to oil prices where demand has increased post Covid shutdowns. It is now correcting and prices were c10% down from their peak on oil.

see https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/brent-crude-oil

No conspiracy theories needed.

Just wait,  you know what happened to cigarette / tobacco duty when the government decided they should stop people smoking ( despite the fact that smokers contributed far more to the exchequer than it took to treat them ), well the same will happen with ICE fuels. People need to realise  that governments use price as a stick to guide them the way they want them to go / behave. Minimum price for alcohol is another example.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on December 06, 2021, 03:05:42 PM
The recent rise in ICE fuels is due solely to oil prices where demand has increased post Covid shutdowns. It is now correcting and prices were c10% down from their peak on oil.

see https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/brent-crude-oil

No conspiracy theories needed.

Just wait,  you know what happened to cigarette / tobacco duty when the government decided they should stop people smoking ( despite the fact that smokers contributed far more to the exchequer than it took to treat them ), well the same will happen with ICE fuels. People need to realise  that governments use price as a stick to guide them the way they want them to go / behave. Minimum price for alcohol is another example.
This seems much like your climate change arguments - it doesn't matter if people are killing themselves and others as long as they are making money. ?????
 As I've posted before. Big oil is following the same ideas and using the same PR firms as tobacco did decades ago.
“From the 1950s onward, the oil and tobacco firms were using not only the same PR firms and same research institutes, but many of the same researchers,” CIEL President Carroll Muffett said in a statement. “Again and again we found both the PR firms and the researchers worked first for oil, then for tobacco,” he said.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/tobacco-and-oil-industries-used-same-researchers-to-sway-public1/

https://patabook.com/news/2021/12/05/how-big-tobacco-used-bad-science-to-avoid-accountability-and-set-the-blueprint-for-big-oil/
edit added second link
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on December 07, 2021, 10:47:18 AM
Yes - the Tobacco Industry set a template for the fossil fuel industries. There is an America Pollster - Frank Lunz - who was involved with big tobacco. He has said that the approach, in the face of strong evidence, is not outright denial but to foster doubt and that is what is happening with the argument around Climate Change.

The ironic thing is that it was scientists working for Exxon Mobile who were amongst the first groups to raise the alarm. Exxon then went into full "trash the evidence" mode because they knew that it would hit their profits.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on December 07, 2021, 12:04:13 PM
Britannia Rescue have reported EV vehicles have far more wheel and tyre problems than conventional vehicles.

The added weight of the batteries is playing havoc with them it seems :

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-10280655/EVs-twice-likely-suffer-wheel-tyre-breakdowns-petrol-diesel-cars.html
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 07, 2021, 01:38:50 PM
Britannia Rescue have reported EV vehicles have far more wheel and tyre problems than conventional vehicles.

The added weight of the batteries is playing havoc with them it seems :

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-10280655/EVs-twice-likely-suffer-wheel-tyre-breakdowns-petrol-diesel-cars.html

The answer will be to increase the strength of wheels and the special tyres  needed will be heavier, less flexible and cost a lot more...  making the vehicles even heavier, and the tyres harder to recycle... 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 07, 2021, 06:40:05 PM
Britannia Rescue have reported EV vehicles have far more wheel and tyre problems than conventional vehicles.
This is another example of worthless statistics. They say that more than twice as many call-outs to EVs are for wheel and tyre issues as for ICE cars. However, if EVs are more than twice as mechanically reliable as ICE vehicles then it stands to reason that wheels and tyres would play a bigger part in the EV percentage. I am not saying they are not harder on tyres but the statistics published are just gobbledygook.
If of 1,000 EV cars they were called out to 360 had tyre problems that is 36%. However, if they were called out to 2500 ICE cars, and 400 had tyre problems then that is 16% of ICE cars. You could say that apart from more or less equal tyre issues EVs are 3.28 times more reliable than ICE cars! Worthless statistics.
Lies, damned lies and statistics.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: embee on December 07, 2021, 10:30:04 PM
Agree, percentages of faults don't mean anything per se. ICE cars have a lot more stuff to get problems with, fuel pumps, ignition parts etc.
If just one EV car has a problem, and that problem is a flat tyre, then it means 100% of EV faults are tyres. Meaningless without more info.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on December 08, 2021, 05:32:14 AM
Fully EV vehicles

Some parts near Aberdeen have been without electricity for about 11 days.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 08, 2021, 10:10:21 AM
Some parts near Aberdeen have been without electricity for about 11 days.
And so much snow they wouldn't be going anywhere anyway.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Neil Ives on December 08, 2021, 10:19:12 AM
Fully EV vehicles

Some parts near Aberdeen have been without electricity for about 11 days.
So, no fuel pumps for ICE vehicles then  :D
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on December 08, 2021, 10:30:40 AM
Ah, yes, forgot about that  :(
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on December 08, 2021, 10:40:25 AM
Britannia Rescue have reported EV vehicles have far more wheel and tyre problems than conventional vehicles.
This is another example of worthless statistics. They say that more than twice as many call-outs to EVs are for wheel and tyre issues as for ICE cars. However, if EVs are more than twice as mechanically reliable as ICE vehicles then it stands to reason that wheels and tyres would play a bigger part in the EV percentage. I am not saying they are not harder on tyres but the statistics published are just gobbledygook.
If of 1,000 EV cars they were called out to 360 had tyre problems that is 36%. However, if they were called out to 2500 ICE cars, and 400 had tyre problems then that is 16% of ICE cars. You could say that apart from more or less equal tyre issues EVs are 3.28 times more reliable than ICE cars! Worthless statistics.
Lies, damned lies and statistics.

Excellent analysis Jocko. It should also be noted that most EVs are only 10-15% heavier than the ICE equivalent. And they don't get heavier on a full charge!

Also, please note that ThisIsMoney is an imprint of The Daily Mail. Read into that what you will. What I see is the exact same style of article as you see in The Daily Mail, i.e. a few sparse sketchy 'facts' spun into a 'shock horror probe' story which repeats itself several times.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on December 08, 2021, 11:02:10 AM
BMW I3swear their rear tyres very quickly - c 15k miles. A combination of rwd and 0-60 in under 8 seconds encourages spirited driving and the rear tyres wear - some makes are worse than others for wear AND punctures.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on December 08, 2021, 12:05:49 PM
Discussing EVs with my neighbour the other day. She says she won't get one until she absolutely has to. She kept on about being trapped in bad conditions on the motorway and freezing to death because the EV battery was dead. Surely a similar situation would pertain in an ICE car if the fuel level was low?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Neil Ives on December 08, 2021, 12:24:29 PM
Discussing EVs with my neighbour the other day. She says she won't get one until she absolutely has to. She kept on about being trapped in bad conditions on the motorway and freezing to death because the EV battery was dead. Surely a similar situation would pertain in an ICE car if the fuel level was low?
True, but at the moment there is more opportunity to refill a fuel tank than recharge a battery.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest9236 on December 08, 2021, 01:45:24 PM
Fully EV vehicles

Some parts near Aberdeen have been without electricity for about 11 days.
So, no fuel pumps for ICE vehicles then  :D


And NO Charge points for EVs either Doh.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest9236 on December 08, 2021, 01:48:25 PM
Discussing EVs with my neighbour the other day. She says she won't get one until she absolutely has to. She kept on about being trapped in bad conditions on the motorway and freezing to death because the EV battery was dead. Surely a similar situation would pertain in an ICE car if the fuel level was low?
True, but at the moment there is more opportunity to refill a fuel tank than recharge a battery.

Especially if one is prudent and forward thinking perhaps an Emergency can of fuel in the boot.?
Or most unlikely a spare Battery for your EV.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 08, 2021, 06:52:21 PM
BMW I3swear their rear tyres very quickly
Have you had a close look at their tyres. They are skinny, to reduce rolling resistance. A Morris Minor had wider tyres. Trying to put modern levels of power through such narrow tyres are a recipe for high wear rates. Their road holding must be suspect as well.

(https://www.cnet.com/a/img/GHcacO_jWlajdJTCoW_3vxL69FA=/1200x675/2015/04/20/a31386d8-94cf-4068-b8a7-9fba07b410be/bmwi3bridgestoneep500-25.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: embee on December 08, 2021, 08:48:51 PM
155/70 R19 by all accounts, slender indeed.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on December 09, 2021, 10:53:39 AM
Just on EVs generally I take the "i" newspaper. Their motoring correspondent - David Parsley - is, seemingly, quite negative about the whole charging infrastructure thing and advises his readers to hold off buying an EV unless you have more than one car and/or you live in a large conurbation. He lives in rural Devon and the charging infrastructure there is dire.

I'm comfortable with my purchase of the Jazz Hybrid. At my advanced years it may well see me out.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 11, 2021, 04:51:31 PM
Just finished watching this week's "5th Gear: Recharged". They had a city car test comparing the latest Renault Zoe (once queen of the city EVs), Mini EV, Fiat 500 EV, Peugeot 208 EV and the Honda e. The first test was general driving on a test track and the Zoe and 500 were eliminated for general feel and comfort. They then scored the remainders on looks, interior quality, tech, ease of charging and range. The 208 won comfortably (mainly on range and interior space - it's a much bigger car) with the Mini and the Honda e scoring the same points. The Honda e went through because it had scored 5 out of 5 for looks and the Mini didn't get full points in any category. Vicki Butler-Henderson then thrashed both of them around a winding test circuit and, despite it being the heaviest of the two, with the slowest 0-60 time, the Honda e was quickest and the most fun to drive. She reckoned the steering gave the best feedback and the suspension was just right. Good-oh for Honda. I'd love a Honda e and if I could afford it I'd have one in a minute. Perfect for my new driving regime. (And I could have had one if SWMBO hadn't spent the price of a Honda e getting a new kitchen installed.)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on December 11, 2021, 05:11:41 PM
£30k for a new kitchen ! ?  :o
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: hemming on December 11, 2021, 05:34:28 PM
£30K for a car? :o
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: kevinivtec on December 11, 2021, 05:56:21 PM
just to add a friend of mine has just purchased a hyundai  ionic plug in hybrid its been a total nightmare!! firstly £500 paid out for a home charging point,  was using a 3 pin plug it was getting rather warm and too long to charge so was forced down the route of home charging point for ease or so he thought 12 kw no way car won't take more than 6 kw and when charged up 35/40 miles on battery ?? duh!!! then we have range problems on a long trip just not practical why?? he has to have about a dozen cards/ accounts to charge up away from home, only able to charge if he has the right account/ the charging point is actually working/ he has the right connection plug/ no one is already charging and god forbid there is a queue, and also no one with a petrol / diesel car is parked in the bay?? more hours wasted waiting  he says after hindsight  if you have more money than sense and dont do more than 40 miles a week around town sure get an electric car if you are young enough to recoup electric charge over petrol otherwise seriously think about a honda jazz hybrid?? offers from local dealer £500 off price 5yrs warranty 5yrs service and a decent mileage??? no brainer he say we  do not have the infrastructure in place and the cars are far too expensive also the battery has a life of aprox 8 yrs??? and not able to recycle and a trip from devon( where he is to scotland for a holiday just out of the question not practice) total waste of money
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 11, 2021, 07:06:28 PM
£30k for a new kitchen ! ?  :o
Half of that was demolition and rebuilding. Then a kitchen with all the integrated toys and installation. My wife can spend £30K no problem.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on December 11, 2021, 07:08:21 PM
£30k for a new kitchen ! ?  :o

I agree .

Far too low.

Can't get solid gold taps for that let alone a marble sink .

And have you seen the costs of a maid's uniform?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Neil Ives on December 11, 2021, 10:40:38 PM
... total waste of money
I agree.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on December 12, 2021, 04:36:02 AM
just to add a friend of mine has just purchased a hyundai  ionic plug in hybrid its been a total nightmare!!

If it's a plug-in hybrid then can't he drive it like our MK4 ? My neighbour has a Prius plug-in hybrid and he never plugs it in.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on December 12, 2021, 07:06:15 AM
just to add a friend of mine has just purchased a hyundai  ionic plug in hybrid its been a total nightmare!! firstly £500 paid out for a home charging point,  was using a 3 pin plug it was getting rather warm and too long to charge so was forced down the route of home charging point for ease or so he thought 12 kw no way car won't take more than 6 kw and when charged up 35/40 miles on battery ?? duh!!! then we have range problems on a long trip just not practical why?? he has to have about a dozen cards/ accounts to charge up away from home, only able to charge if he has the right account/ the charging point is actually working/ he has the right connection plug/ no one is already charging and god forbid there is a queue, and also no one with a petrol / diesel car is parked in the bay?? more hours wasted waiting  he says after hindsight  if you have more money than sense and dont do more than 40 miles a week around town sure get an electric car if you are young enough to recoup electric charge over petrol otherwise seriously think about a honda jazz hybrid?? offers from local dealer £500 off price 5yrs warranty 5yrs service and a decent mileage??? no brainer he say we  do not have the infrastructure in place and the cars are far too expensive also the battery has a life of aprox 8 yrs??? and not able to recycle and a trip from devon( where he is to scotland for a holiday just out of the question not practice) total waste of money

This doesn’t make sense, it’s almost as if the friend doesn’t understand the car he’s got. If the car is a plug-in hybrid, then EV range issues are irrelevant ... the combustion engine (ICE) will take over when the battery runs down. But all the rest of the comments imply they think they have a pure EV, so they think they have to find a charge point every 30-40 miles. And driving from Devon to Scotland should present no more problems for a PHEV than for an old-fashioned ICE car or indeed a self-charging hybrid like the Mk4 Jazz.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on December 12, 2021, 08:04:15 AM
Yep, just what I said :)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on December 12, 2021, 08:56:40 AM
Yep, just what I said :)

Similar but not quite. My main point was the contradiction between stating that the car was a PHEV, and then going on to state all the issues that the owner of an EV with a very small battery would have. So does the friend not understand what a PHEV is?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on December 12, 2021, 05:33:14 PM
Yep, just what I said :)

Similar but not quite. My main point was the contradiction between stating that the car was a PHEV, and then going on to state all the issues that the owner of an EV with a very small battery would have. So does the friend not understand what a PHEV is?

And they are seeing none of the benefits. I would love a PHEV as most of my driving is in the local vicinity and would be on electric, and then when you need to do more, well it's over to petrol. Yep, seems to me this person, and possibly kevinivtec also, don't understand what they have bought.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: springswood on December 13, 2021, 07:49:46 AM
I've been really enjoying Fifth Gear Recharged. Nice to have a source of info on EVs that's got a positive attitude that evaluates them as cars. Exemplified by VBH's attitude to the Honda e

It seems they do rather well, not least I suspect because the torque character of an electric motor is actually suited to driving. Dare I say an internal combustion engine is not. To get one with enough torque to be fun you end up with so much excess power it will do dangerously high speeds. Then there's the ludicrous complexity with hundreds of parts sliding and reciprocating and vibrating.

Did anyone see the wacky prototype in the first show? It's covered in solar cells and they reckon it'll pick up about 15 miles of charge a day even in Germany. That might work for me as I don't have off street parking. Plus the car is a practical supermini body not unlike a Jazz. Be a couple of years before there's a right hand drive version.

I hope we may be getting to the point where there's more to be said about EVs than range anxiety and complaining about charging infrastructure. Rather highlighted to me when the person on the checkout in a supermarket the other day was saying - EV's are great, just get one. I wish I'd asked which they had... Me want.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 13, 2021, 07:59:50 AM
Solar power in Northern Europe OK between April and September,  except when cloud cover.  Solar between October and March - useless,  look how solar hugs the X axis of the graph on gridwatch ( like wind often does )...  Solar is OK in a desert on the equator..
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Neil Ives on December 13, 2021, 10:20:08 AM
I wonder if fans of EV forget where the energy comes from. Drivers of an EV should not be environment guilt free.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 13, 2021, 10:25:33 AM
The car in question just used solar, when the sun was shining, as a mini top-up. In no way was it meant to be as a means of recharging the vehicle,
Copenhagen's International School generates 300-megawatt hours of energy per year from their solar panels. Though energy production decreases with increasingly dense cloud cover, panels continue working to a greater capacity than one may expect. The good news is that even when covered with snow, solar panels can generate electricity.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 13, 2021, 10:32:51 AM
Personally, it doesn't trouble me where the energy for an EV comes from. They could be burning tigers to generate electricity. I want an EV for the simplicity and the driving experience, not as a means of reducing global warming.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on December 13, 2021, 10:33:50 PM
The good news is that even when covered with snow, solar panels can generate electricity.
Please tell that to the panels on my roof. A thin layer of snow on them means zero output.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 14, 2021, 09:04:25 AM
The good news is that even when covered with snow, solar panels can generate electricity.
Please tell that to the panels on my roof. A thin layer of snow on them means zero output.

I have noticed on gridwatch that the slightest, thinnest cloud cover and solar drops alarmingly.. One of our CCTV cameras is fed by a solar panel to keep battery topped up, I noticed after a few cloudy days the charge in the battery has dropped.. 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on December 14, 2021, 09:20:22 AM
At 9.19am it is cloudy and UK solar output is err 0.05GW.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 14, 2021, 10:21:17 AM
At 9.19am it is cloudy and UK solar output is err 0.05GW.

With installed capacity of about 25GW wind and 14GW solar in UK we rarely see more than 4GW solar and 12GW wind,  the problem with renewables is 'intermittency' - and grid level storage,  even for a few hours is horrendously expensive..  Solar in UK is pretty useless for 6 months of the year,  and even in high summer only good for 8 to 9 hours a day,  and even then cloud massively reduces output.   Better output could be had from solar if the panels followed the suns path,  but that would be very expensive,  so we are stuck with a hump at midday and dropping off quite sharply either side ( a sine wave shape ) - the attractive thing about solar for the people who own and install the farms are the subsidies... and who pays for them ?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 14, 2021, 03:34:22 PM
Sobering thought from an article,  which mentions that China is presently buying all the coal it can get coal from many countries... Of course China will happily sell electric vehicles, but as for decarbonising its economy anytime soon, maybe not.

"For President Xi, the decarbonisation agenda is just a very easy way to get the West to weaken itself. He will make all the right noises, but nothing more."
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on December 14, 2021, 03:54:04 PM
Sobering thought from an article,  which mentions that China is presently buying all the coal it can get coal from many countries... Of course China will happily sell electric vehicles, but as for decarbonising its economy anytime soon, maybe not.

"For President Xi, the decarbonisation agenda is just a very easy way to get the West to weaken itself. He will make all the right noises, but nothing more."

It is a sobering thought, which only makes sense if you have a deep distrust of China, which I accept some people do. For me, I believe Putin and Xi are mainly aiming to defend their own nations, but there strategy does involve attempting to destabilise others. Promising not to build any more coal fired power stations outside China seems, on the face of it, a good thing. But there is no promise not to build any more within China. So it strengthens their short term position in terms of having a stable supply of energy. A very trick one to call and requires a lot of trust in them to eventually work towards their 2060 target. By which time China will have a different leader.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on December 16, 2021, 07:42:51 AM
From yesterday’s Tortoise.com:

“Toyota’s big bet
Toyota says it will spend $35 billion retooling factories and redesigning cars so that by 2030 it’s producing 30 fully electric models. It’s hard to overstate what a capitulation this is to the all-battery approach Tesla has popularised on the other side of the Pacific. Toyota was an early adopter of hybrid tech in its Priuses. It has been fascinated for decades by fuel cells and was the first big manufacturer to bring a fuel cell car to market. But it has been conspicuously and deliberately slow to invest in all-battery cars, and now it’s admitting that was the wrong call. If you can’t hear Elon Musk yelling “I told you so” that’s because you’re not in the room or he doesn’t feel the need. But he has sneered at hybrids as unnecessarily complicated ever since his first roadster stunned the critics 13 years ago. The world’s biggest car maker (Toyota) has now joined the world’s second-biggest car maker (VW) in officially playing catch-up.”

Perhaps not surprising given that anything with an ICE - including hybrids - are being legislated out of existence. More surprising though is that Honda are introducing more hybrids just as their rivals are getting out.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 16, 2021, 09:24:14 AM
From yesterday’s Tortoise.com:

“Toyota’s big bet
Toyota says it will spend $35 billion retooling factories and redesigning cars so that by 2030 it’s producing 30 fully electric models. It’s hard to overstate what a capitulation this is to the all-battery approach Tesla has popularised on the other side of the Pacific. Toyota was an early adopter of hybrid tech in its Priuses. It has been fascinated for decades by fuel cells and was the first big manufacturer to bring a fuel cell car to market. But it has been conspicuously and deliberately slow to invest in all-battery cars, and now it’s admitting that was the wrong call. If you can’t hear Elon Musk yelling “I told you so” that’s because you’re not in the room or he doesn’t feel the need. But he has sneered at hybrids as unnecessarily complicated ever since his first roadster stunned the critics 13 years ago. The world’s biggest car maker (Toyota) has now joined the world’s second-biggest car maker (VW) in officially playing catch-up.”

Perhaps not surprising given that anything with an ICE - including hybrids - are being legislated out of existence. More surprising though is that Honda are introducing more hybrids just as their rivals are getting out.

This is a triumph of stupid legislation over good engineering and common sense... not Musk. 

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on December 16, 2021, 10:26:25 AM
EVs will be a success until countries screw up their electricity production and end up with an overdependence on electricity.

A dark calm spell ## such as we are having now in the middle of a cold winter leading to blackouts, failure of home heating and EVs stranded without charge will change attitudes  . The resulting court cases over deaths could last decades.
The UK is going merrily along that course.

## or a major Icelandic volcanic eruption lasting for weeks. But that could never happen surely? errr....
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on December 16, 2021, 05:50:14 PM
Here's s couple of graphics that summarise the situation.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 17, 2021, 09:03:35 AM
Today Wind 0.6GW and solar 0GW ---  gas being burnt as if there is no tomorrow ( at this rate less than 3 weeks storage of gas available ), coal stations online, sucking power through the undersea cables... and weather getting colder - don't panic, don't panic......
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on December 17, 2021, 10:24:15 AM
Today Wind 0.6GW and solar 0GW ---  gas being burnt as if there is no tomorrow ( at this rate less than 3 weeks storage of gas available ), coal stations online, sucking power through the undersea cables... and weather getting colder - don't panic, don't panic......

As I write at 10.23am, coal and gas account for 62% of all electricity production.
Nuclear is 13%.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on December 17, 2021, 12:34:50 PM
Well one of you is right.

What is the lag on the data, as Culzean posted earlier not long after the sun came up round here?

Also, does the solar figure include domestic panels? It is really sunny here in Yorkshire on the hilltops.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 17, 2021, 02:36:13 PM
Well one of you is right.

What is the lag on the data, as Culzean posted earlier not long after the sun came up round here?

Also, does the solar figure include domestic panels? It is really sunny here in Yorkshire on the hilltops.

Oops,  went to quote you and clicked thanks instead - is there any way to 'un-thank' someone ?

The sun in winter ( October to March ) is useless for solar and the sky by us has never changed from a dull battleship grey for a couple of days now.  Sun too low in the sky and too weak to produce much energy, even without clouds. Patch of sun in Yorkshire neither here nor there in overall scheme.  There is a solar panel supplying one of our CCTV cameras, battery % charge has been dropping for a few days now, still I don't rely on that solar panel for heating, cooking, and charging my car.

Just looked again,  wind 0.7GW and solar 0.5GW  and coal 2GW, biomass ( American trees ) 2.4 GW
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 18, 2021, 08:43:29 AM
The attached graph ( PDF ) shows you all you need to know about viability of solar in UK.  Remember the present installed capacity of solar panels in UK is >14GW ( LOL )

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 18, 2021, 09:16:00 AM
I don't know about others but I am sick fed up with this thread moaning about renewable energy or the lack of it. There is a thread here; https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=12665.0 (https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=12665.0) for such concerns.
This thread should be about vehicles and technology. Luddites take your concerns elsewhere.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 21, 2021, 09:44:58 AM
I don't know about others but I am sick fed up with this thread moaning about renewable energy or the lack of it. There is a thread here; https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=12665.0 (https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=12665.0) for such concerns.
This thread should be about vehicles and technology. Luddites take your concerns elsewhere.

The supply of electricity and the viability of EV are so tightly linked they cannot be separated...

Without a stable electricity supply all the EV / electric home / zero carbon plans are not even remotely viable- EV proponents and  owners put their fingers in their ears and go 'la la la' when how we are going to get the energy needed is discussed ..   So on a cold day in December we have wind 1GW ( from 25GW installed ) solar 0GW ( from >14GW installed ), Nuclear, gas and American tree burning all running flat out, coal stations running and once again UK is sucking power through every available undersea cable from other countries. 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on December 21, 2021, 11:43:37 AM
Never mind. When more than 50% of our electricity is produced from gas - 57% as I write- and the price of LNG for the UK making new highs today -30% higher than the October 21 price - no-one is soon going to able to afford UK produced electricity. Think possibly £0.30 per KWH (I am currently paying £0.20 and was paying £0.15 6 months ago)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on December 21, 2021, 01:05:48 PM
The supply of electricity and the viability of EV are so tightly linked they cannot be separated...

Well on here they have. The thread Jocko linked to is about the supply of electricity. This thread is supposed to be about the use of electricity by vehicles, the design, technology and practicality of such vehicles. At some point, you have to assume the supply issues will be dealt with, just as the supply of oil for ICE vehicles was dealt with at the end of the Victorian era.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on December 24, 2021, 12:10:21 PM
One way to deal with a Tesla when they want £17.5k for a new battery pack :

https://www.tbsnews.net/tech/finnish-tesla-owner-blows-his-car-30kg-dynamite-347299
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 24, 2021, 08:04:54 PM
How much would Honda charge for a new engine for a 2013 Jazz? My son-in-law's Discovery engine cost over £20K.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Neil Ives on December 24, 2021, 10:22:18 PM
How much would Honda charge for a new engine for a 2013 Jazz? My son-in-law's Discovery engine cost over £20K.
Surely that must have written the vehicle off :o
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 25, 2021, 09:56:53 AM
Surely that must have written the vehicle off :o
You would have thought so but his company just bought and fitted a brand new engine. Discovery was only a couple of years old with about 60K on the clock. It was a special van style body with steel panels replacing the rear windows and fitted out with a mobile workshop. The accountants must have done the sums. Insurance wouldn't have paid for a new engine and I assume any warranty didn't cover it. The crankshaft sheared and wrecked the engine.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on December 25, 2021, 11:27:14 AM
Lots of Discoveries with sheared crankshafts on YouTube. Looks like a design flaw.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on December 27, 2021, 12:01:03 PM
"The government has quietly backtracked on proposals to require every shop, office or factory in England to install at least one electric car charger if they have a large car park, prompting criticism by environmental campaigners.

The original plan required every new and existing non-residential building with parking for 20 cars or more to install a charger. However, the Department for Transport (DfT) has now revealed it will only require chargers be installed in new or refurbished commercial premises amid fears over the cost for businesses, according to a response to a consultation.

The move has prompted concern in the car industry and among experts that public charger access will lag behind demand, as sales of electric vehicles accelerate ahead of the 2035 ban on sales of new fossil-fuelled internal combustion engines. A quarter of new cars bought in the UK in November can be plugged in to recharge, according to industry data."
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/dec/27/plans-in-england-for-car-chargers-in-all-commercial-car-parks-quietly-rolled-back
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on December 27, 2021, 12:30:29 PM
1 charger per >20 cars at the office car park.

Musical cars to get them all charged.

Fiasco comes to mind.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Neil Ives on December 27, 2021, 12:33:35 PM
Fiasco comes to mind.
Yup
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on December 27, 2021, 01:05:53 PM
1 charger per >20 cars at the office car park.

Musical cars to get them all charged.

Fiasco comes to mind.

My daughter is Vice Principal of a sixth form college. They have been discussing the whole issue of charging at work (relevant to my daughter who has no off road parking along with around 45% of staff members). If I remember from our chat, they reckon the college can afford 10 chargers at the most to be sited as close to the buildings as possible - a rota system would be required to ensure people unplugged at a certain time to let others get a charge. "Sorry kids - I know we are in the middle of a lesson but talk amongst yourselves whilst I unplug my car."

We are not there yet are we? Indeed not even close.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Lord Voltermore on December 27, 2021, 02:33:08 PM
I recently stayed at a newly built travel lodge type hotel, popular with business users. Ample parking , no chargers.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on December 27, 2021, 02:59:17 PM
One of the things that will be needed is "redundancy" - this is to cater for the fact that an EV takes about 30 mins to get to 80% charge whereas, once you are at the pump, 2 or 3 mins is all you need. In short, when you pull up at an EV charging point or hub, there should always be unused charge points.

We also need to nail the "90% of people will charge at home" lie. As lies go it is a whopper. 40% of homes have no off road parking and, given the high price of EVs so far, it is overwhelmingly better off people who own them at present. Come the day, 40% of charging will be done at public chargers.

I'm sounding a bit anti EV these days - I'm not - but I have very little confidence that the infrastructure will be anywhere near good enough in time. I hope I'm wrong but until I see chargers in our local supermarket car parks (there are a handful at most) I will continue to be sceptical.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Lord Voltermore on December 27, 2021, 05:45:23 PM
When I looked briefly at the Corsa EV it featured '3 months free subscription' to a particular organisation of charging point providers.(normally about £7 per month IIRC ) 
 I think they allow non subscribers but they pay more per watt. (and might be treated less favourably in other ways) Also their  fast chargers cost  considerably more per watt than the slower ones which would take hours.      Plus they charge an overstay parking fee if you leave a car on a fast charger  too long.  And the tempting  'fast' charge  speed quoted is only to 80 % charge. Dropping the corsas range from 180 miles  ( under ideal summer conditions) to 144 miles or less. 

The Vauxhall  site included a map of charging points ,which didnt seem extensive for my area, and often required an inconvenient diversion.  And some sites mentioned a membership requirement.   

I'd love an EV, but the infrastructure is not ready for me.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Neil Ives on December 27, 2021, 06:36:14 PM
My daughter was employed as a children's nanny in London; her employers are loaded and have a lovely 4 story terraced house in Ladbroke Grove. They have to park wherever they can, which might be on another street.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on December 27, 2021, 10:29:15 PM
Maybe we'll discover as 2030 approaches that the rules are quietly changed so that self-charging hybrids can continue to be sold for sevral more years both to alleviate the charging problem and to avoid overloading the grid until several more big nuclear power plants (or output equivalent in smaller ones) are commissioned.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Neil Ives on December 27, 2021, 10:55:45 PM
Maybe we'll discover as 2030 approaches that the rules are quietly changed so that self-charging hybrids can continue to be sold for sevral more years both to alleviate the charging problem and to avoid overloading the grid until several more big nuclear power plants (or output equivalent in smaller ones) are commissioned.
Or until hydrogen powered or assisted vehicles are available.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Julian Okampos on December 29, 2021, 10:23:59 PM
Maybe we'll discover as 2030 approaches that the rules are quietly changed so that self-charging hybrids can continue to be sold for sevral more years both to alleviate the charging problem and to avoid overloading the grid until several more big nuclear power plants (or output equivalent in smaller ones) are commissioned. Anyway, I don't regret buying my Model S via this (https://carplus.co.uk/car-finance/hp/) company. They offered awesome conditions.   
I wonder if modern power grids will be able to handle all the electricity that will be consumed by electric cars in 5-10 years? I mean it will entail multibillion-dollar investments in infrastructure upgrades. I don't think that a lot of countries will afford that.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on December 30, 2021, 08:22:34 AM
Maybe we'll discover as 2030 approaches that the rules are quietly changed so that self-charging hybrids can continue to be sold for sevral more years both to alleviate the charging problem and to avoid overloading the grid until several more big nuclear power plants (or output equivalent in smaller ones) are commissioned.
I wonder if modern power grids will be able to handle all the electricity that will be consumed by electric cars in 5-10 years? I mean it will entail multibillion-dollar investments in infrastructure upgrades. I don't think that a lot of countries will afford that.

Already planned for in UK > Smart Meters planned to stop charging at peak usage times.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 30, 2021, 12:48:30 PM

Already planned for in UK > Smart Meters planned to stop charging at peak usage times.

Will smart meters also stop cars charging when sun does not shine and the wind does not blow,  which often happens - sometimes for weeks on end - Oh dear...
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on December 30, 2021, 07:05:29 PM
Maybe we'll discover as 2030 approaches that the rules are quietly changed so that self-charging hybrids can continue to be sold for sevral more years both to alleviate the charging problem and to avoid overloading the grid until several more big nuclear power plants (or output equivalent in smaller ones) are commissioned.
I wonder if modern power grids will be able to handle all the electricity that will be consumed by electric cars in 5-10 years? I mean it will entail multibillion-dollar investments in infrastructure upgrades. I don't think that a lot of countries will afford that.

Already planned for in UK > Smart Meters planned to stop charging at peak usage times.
Smart meters won't stop anything but enable variable time-based tariffs which will encourage users to save money by doing charging (and other high electricity demand activities) when the electricity is cheapest. See https://octopus.energy/agile/ for example.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 31, 2021, 01:59:59 PM
This is my favourite video of how to deal with a Tesla that has become and ornament due to FUBAR battery...Hope it catches on.  It has English subtitles ( you may need to enable subtitles on Youtube ).






Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Lord Voltermore on December 31, 2021, 04:15:51 PM
There is a cartoon book , '101 uses for a dead cat.' (feline cat   ;) )   Time for a tesla edition. 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 06, 2022, 02:28:22 PM
I see the SMMT figures out show that sales of Electric cars for 2021 were greater than the sales of electric cars for the previous 5 years combined.
More than a quarter of all new cars sold were electrified in some form.
11.7% were BEV. 8.8% were self-charging Hybrid-electric and only 6.9% were PHEV
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on January 06, 2022, 03:06:46 PM
I saw that, with a comment that EV to charge points ratio is getting higher.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 20, 2022, 07:49:13 PM
There is a new programme starting on Quest next Thursday 27th where they are electrifying a range of old and classic vehicles. The trailer shows a real Mini, a VW Camper and an Isetta Bubble car. Should be worth a look (I have set up my recorder).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on January 23, 2022, 11:39:21 AM
I wonder if this will happen here ?

https://news.yahoo.com/1-5-electric-vehicle-owners-164149467.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuY2l2aW5mby5jb20v&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAJdPCLck4XkosrniInXROqXi72uGWDWelSskLsjwqbINRQt2Y5BUoUjWpZctGyvsgOmcJne7HexeOq08G2w5fI-1kyoPEZDMIHfJOcAY7Hx6ybSKMlT0NI8HxrDv59SqRHqIcIBIwGm3BtJBQs9qEIaIHn7S-bnUjeKy6fKmZ5uk
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 23, 2022, 12:38:14 PM
It may do but in the UK a large percentage of PHEV owners replace them with BEVs as their next vehicle. Don't know if the others go PHEV or back to ICE though.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on January 31, 2022, 09:08:17 AM
Just seen in the news that a Falcon rocket launched launched seven years ago is going to crash into the moon and explode.  another great Tesla product - a normal rocket could have got there in a few days and landed safely... Wonder if it working on Tesla autopilot ?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-60148543
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on January 31, 2022, 10:08:35 AM
Just seen in the news that a Falcon rocket launched launched seven years ago is going to crash into the moon and explode.  another great Tesla product - a normal rocket could have got there in a few days and landed safely... Wonder if it working on Tesla autopilot ?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-60148543

Off topic (sorry), but:

Just to be clear, the Falcon 9 upper stage that's going to hit the moon is a product of SpaceX, not Tesla. Both started by Musk but separate companies. SpaceX have over 100 successful landings of boosters (one has flown eleven times), so they seem to have got their autopilot pretty well sorted.

The only existing "... normal rocket that could have got there in a few days and landed safely ..." and has done so is Chinese. Various US companies are (re-)developing the means to do that under NASA's Commercial Lunar Payload Services programme (https://www.nasa.gov/content/commercial-lunar-payload-services) but none have yet flown, and SpaceX themselves are on contract to build the human lander for NASA's Artemis programme.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on January 31, 2022, 10:56:42 AM
Just seen in the news that a Falcon rocket launched launched seven years ago is going to crash into the moon and explode.  another great Tesla product - a normal rocket could have got there in a few days and landed safely... Wonder if it working on Tesla autopilot ?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-60148543

Off topic (sorry), but:

Just to be clear, the Falcon 9 upper stage that's going to hit the moon is a product of SpaceX, not Tesla. Both started by Musk but separate companies. SpaceX have over 100 successful landings of boosters (one has flown eleven times), so they seem to have got their autopilot pretty well sorted.

The only existing "... normal rocket that could have got there in a few days and landed safely ..." and has done so is Chinese. Various US companies are (re-)developing the means to do that under NASA's Commercial Lunar Payload Services programme (https://www.nasa.gov/content/commercial-lunar-payload-services) but none have yet flown, and SpaceX themselves are on contract to build the human lander for NASA's Artemis programme.

What about NASA Apollo in the 1960's ?  Their stuff got there pretty damned quick and landed and took off again - OK I know their missions were manned,  but aren't computers supposed to be so much smarter than us humans.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on January 31, 2022, 11:37:01 AM
I really mustn't post about the moon landing and conspiracy theories :)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on January 31, 2022, 11:39:16 AM
What about NASA Apollo in the 1960's ?  Their stuff got there pretty damned quick and landed and took off again - OK I know their missions were manned,  but aren't computers supposed to be so much smarter than us humans.

The key word in my comment was "existing". The US junked that technology and now has to re-invent it.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on January 31, 2022, 12:29:50 PM
What about NASA Apollo in the 1960's ?  Their stuff got there pretty damned quick and landed and took off again - OK I know their missions were manned,  but aren't computers supposed to be so much smarter than us humans.

The key word in my comment was "existing". The US junked that technology and now has to re-invent it.

I am really looking forward to electric rockets....
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on January 31, 2022, 01:39:42 PM
I am really looking forward to electric rockets....

No problem, here y'go:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacecraft_electric_propulsion
It's a mature technology, been around for decades.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on January 31, 2022, 02:24:28 PM
I am really looking forward to electric rockets....

No problem, here y'go:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacecraft_electric_propulsion
It's a mature technology, been around for decades.

Ahh the old ion propulsion,  OK once you are in frictionless zero gravity of space, but electrickey will not get you from terra firma to there.. 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on January 31, 2022, 03:00:06 PM

This is a good watch - about 30 mins. An EV owner with his rather attractive but very opinionated Italian wife. Highlights that the charging situation is nowhere near ideal and good points about safety when charging at night.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on February 27, 2022, 09:05:04 AM
CARWOW test of Skoda BEV....

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest9236 on February 28, 2022, 11:22:00 AM
Just seen in the news that a Falcon rocket launched launched seven years ago is going to crash into the moon and explode.  another great Tesla product - a normal rocket could have got there in a few days and landed safely... Wonder if it working on Tesla autopilot ?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-60148543

Perhaps it was all electric to help this green  tripe we are being fed, electric cars, electric boilers, air/ ground source heat pumps,
The mind boggles at the sheer idiocies of it all, wait and see how popular this will be, when no natural gas or butane/ Propane no oil, no  wood burning stoves no open fires no oil boilers ,for rural dwellers, what will power Combined Harvesters, or Tractors seed drills and so on and  so on.results.possibly food shortages no bread no veg etc.
Net Zero impossible to achieve in  a thousand years.
When the penny finally drops  and the populace find just now cold it really is in winter even in our climate with NO alternative to ELECTRICITY available. Good Luck.
 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 18, 2022, 02:39:37 PM
I am seriously considering the Vauxhall Grandland X PHEV. 39 electric miles WLTP, more than enough for 90% of my motoring miles (15 would do me). It is quite pricey but I have had great motoring from Vauxhalls in the past with a Carlton and a Cavalier (plus the Wyvern I passed my test in).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on March 18, 2022, 04:35:52 PM
Me too Jocko. There was a write-up on it in the Yorkshire Post motoring section last weekend. I was surprised just how much more affordable it is than other PHEVs. I have made three journeys today in my RAV4 Hybrid and have one more to do. All four would have been possible within the range of a PHEV like the Grandland on a single charge.

I carried out a test, in the RAV4, which has an older generation hybrid system and uses a 2.5l petrol engine on the Atkinson cycle. I turned off all unnecessary electrics (a/c, heated seats, etc.) and drove 4 miles up into the hills to a farm shop. The dash registered 21mpg for that journey. The exact same journey in reverse registered 94.5mpg. So an average of 58mpg. Not bad. But a PHEV would have done it all on electric. So I would really love a PHEV but most start at over £40k, which is just too much for me to justify on a car.

I want my next car to be minimal on gadgets as I want to have it a long time. This RAV4 was 1 year old when I bought it and is 6 years old now. The longest I have owned a single vehicle (apart from our Jazz, which my sons use, and we have had over 8 years now). There is nothing wrong with the RAV4, it was top spec at the time and so has all the gadgets that mid spec cars come with these days. Being a Toyota, the warranty will last to ten years old, so long as they service it each year.

So why change?

Well it is full of things to go wrong eventually, like, say, a power rear door. And that is a little worry at the back of my mind, that it will become expensive to maintain. It's also not as economic in general as I would like. It's a little bigger than I need right now.

Also, having bought it for £26,000 in 2017, it is worth £19,000 as a trade in against a Suzuki S-Cross Ultimate with interest free finance on the £11k shortfall! The S-Cross is essentially like my car but a bit smaller and more economical!

So my list now includes the Grandland, but also include Honda's new HRV, the Toyota RAV4 Cross AWD, the Suzuki Vitara and the S-Cross, and, from left field, the Dacia Duster.

Why the Duster? Well have you seen the pictures from Ukraine? They are everywhere and being used for everything. They are basic but solid, and half the price of my car if it was new! Once you start looking, you see them everywhere! It has heated seats (a must), 4WD, the space I need and no frills I don't need.

So now I am conflicted. In a nice way. I need to do some test driving once I retire in 4 weeks time.

I still believe full electric is too soon, I would prefer a PHEV, but a new Hybrid would also be OK. But I am also not averse to a cheaper petrol vehicle and running it forever.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: olduser1 on March 18, 2022, 05:29:38 PM
Here's another left hander option, our local taxi chap just swoped his 200k + Vauxhall diesel for a wait for it ....
MG5 estate
When I asked him about his choice he reckoned it was money in the bank the deal he got was unbeatable for his business, charging was around £10.00 and 80% of his work is local max 30miles.
I'll keep in touch to see how enjoys the next 100k.
 EV's are imposed on the motoring public thanks to lobbying by vested interests , no Minister of Transport drives themselves etc etc.
Ill keep our 8th Jazz & my Subaru Turbo .
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on April 17, 2022, 08:47:52 AM
Interesting video based on a Volvo investigation into green credentials of ICE vs BEV.

Maybe Volvo make the assumption the the battery will never need replacing in the BEV.  The guy who made this video thinks that because he is on a 'green' tariff ALL his electrical power comes from fans on sticks or Solar panels...sorry but the majority of it, most of the time comes from nuclear, Gas, biomass and even coal... The smart meters are not clever enough yet to filter out the non-green electrons and only allow the 'green electrons through... If the Lithium batteries on my phones and other stuff are anything to go by,  they are on the way out after 2 to 3 years.   If people on 'green' tariffs with 'green' companies really did only receive energy from renewables they may soon realise how intermittent the renewables really are...especially when their lights went out and their subsidised heatpump stopped working.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: RichardA on April 17, 2022, 11:27:14 AM
Should I Buy an Electric Car? was on Channel 5 last week:

"Alexis Conran investigates as Britain gears up to make the switch to electric."
https://www.channel5.com/show/should-i-buy-an-electric-car
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on May 20, 2022, 05:23:38 AM
An article on BBC today highlighting the issues with longer journeys and electric.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-61505025

I'm still struggling to understand why electric car sales are allegedly increasing sharply whilst charging them is often very difficult and time wasting.

A friend bought a Jag iPace back in early 2019 and has regretted it ever since.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on May 20, 2022, 08:33:57 AM
An article on BBC today highlighting the issues with longer journeys and electric.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-61505025

I'm still struggling to understand why electric car sales are allegedly increasing sharply whilst charging them is often very difficult and time wasting.

A friend bought a Jag iPace back in early 2019 and has regretted it ever since.

Interesting graphic from BBC article.
The demand is there but the infrastructure is not in place but then putting the infrastructure in place would cost money.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on May 20, 2022, 03:46:57 PM
My understanding is that the situation as regards charging is actually getting worse as the number of EVs is outstripping the installation of new chargers.

I guess you have to do your own maths. I could manage with an EV with a range (minimum) of 150 miles having monitored my motoring over 12 months. This makes the assumption that only in the most extreme circumstances would I use the public charging network (in it's current state).

In short, there are sufficient used EVs that would fit my budget and range requirements.

I love my MK4 though so I won't be making the change for some time, if ever. I've done 1,100 miles in the last 7 months so I'm fortunate that the eye watering price of petrol doesn't really affect me.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on May 24, 2022, 08:16:32 AM
A good article about the problem of EV charging in rural areas https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-61505025.

One part of me wants an EV but another says why inflict myself with the charging hassle when the Crosstar can go 500 miles before I get anxious about refuelling.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: E27006 on May 31, 2022, 05:20:48 PM
I wonder how the real cost of the charging compares with petrol? A 100kWh battery would cost £15 to £20 to fully charge at current domestic tariffs.


The  expensive battery has a limit to the number of   charge / discharge cycles it can handle, add the cost of replacement of the battery in terms of the  charge / discharge cycle life, it will be  a lot more than £15 to £20.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on June 01, 2022, 05:01:13 AM
One report said we may have blackouts this winter.

With increased EV charging and all these new homes and tower blocks being built, where is the electricity coming from ?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest9814 on June 25, 2022, 02:18:13 PM
I wonder how the real cost of the charging compares with petrol? A 100kWh battery would cost £15 to £20 to fully charge at current domestic tariffs.


The  expensive battery has a limit to the number of   charge / discharge cycles it can handle, add the cost of replacement of the battery in terms of the  charge / discharge cycle life, it will be  a lot more than £15 to £20.

Expensive battery replacement caused by charging battery to 100% and driving until there nothing in battery - this wearing battery very fast.
In our hybrid cars same lithium battery but it cycling much more times then in an EV but last very long because discharge controlled by computer and not allows to battery be discharged more than down to 20% and charging in most cases not exciding 70-80%.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on September 10, 2022, 09:17:32 PM
Here's a good article about the constraint that the supply of the battery chemicals and battery manufacturing capacity will impose on the targets for EV adoption https://www.economist.com/business/2022/08/14/could-the-ev-boom-run-out-of-juice-before-it-really-gets-going . Perhaps Honda's dominant approach to use batteries to maximise the ICE efficiency represents a prudent use of scarce resources?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on September 11, 2022, 11:13:28 AM
One report said we may have blackouts this winter.

With increased EV charging and all these new homes and tower blocks being built, where is the electricity coming from ?

solar: lots of it in summer..err..
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 15, 2022, 10:33:34 PM
Or we do it like China.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: mitchelln on September 16, 2022, 10:06:44 AM
I see today that one of the charge point companies has now increased their price to £1 per KW. So you charge up a VW ID3, for example, from 10-80% now costs £40. Plus it takes 35 minutes of course. The other charger companies are bound to follow suit.
Glad I went for a hybrid!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on September 16, 2022, 10:14:57 AM
Me too

Electric charging is going to get expensive. Some reports saying it could get more expensive than petrol on a mile by mile basis.

The other thing is that for us low milers an electric battery will lose charge albeit slowly but petrol in the tank stays as is.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: mitchelln on September 16, 2022, 11:36:51 AM
Yep, especially when they finally start taxing electric vehicles and/or usage once the fossil revenue starts drying up.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on September 16, 2022, 11:46:38 AM
Me too

Electric charging is going to get expensive. Some reports saying it could get more expensive than petrol on a mile by mile basis.

The other thing is that for us low milers an electric battery will lose charge albeit slowly but petrol in the tank stays as is.

We don't know what's going to happen to the price of petrol in the future either though.
I think the cheapest option for now would be solar panels on the roof feeding an EV on the drive but that's not possible for everyone.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 16, 2022, 12:17:23 PM
Or you put your name down for the Aptera. Has its own built-in solar panels. They reckon that me, living in Scotland, could do 20 miles every day without ever having to plug in for a top-up. Starting at $25,900 and available next year.

https://aptera.us/ (https://aptera.us/)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on September 16, 2022, 01:37:50 PM
Mair Sunset Boulevard than Leith Walk.
I can jist imagine half a dozen of them stuck at the bottom of Leith Walk waitin' for the sun tae come oot.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 16, 2022, 01:38:33 PM
The sun always shines on Leith.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: embee on September 16, 2022, 04:58:18 PM
FWIW, just returned from 2 weeks hols in that France place. Macron has doubled the state discount on petrol to 30c/litre ("up to" according to the retailer choice apparently). Lowest price I paid for E10-95RON was Eu1-36 per litre, that's around £1-25 allowing for the falling £.
There again, they have also capped the electrickery increase to 4%, so the relative costs of running electric vs petrol there are in a somewhat different league to here.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on September 16, 2022, 09:39:24 PM
The sun always shines on Leith.

When it doesn’t, you might have to walk 500 miles!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Lord Voltermore on September 18, 2022, 09:10:05 AM
Mair Sunset Boulevard than Leith Walk.
I can jist imagine half a dozen of them stuck at the bottom of Leith Walk waitin' for the sun tae come oot.
If a count of solar panels  is East  Fife 4 -Forfar 5, will the Leith Police releaveth thee?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on September 18, 2022, 10:22:11 AM
Surely the Sun shall shine soon and from the feckin' freezing fog from the Forth free us.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JimSh on September 18, 2022, 05:37:38 PM

If a count of solar panels  is East  Fife 4 -Forfar 5, will the Leith Police releaveth thee?

Sorry for the digression
Explainer for folk not familiar with Fife, Forfar or fitba' results on the wireless.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44916496

The match ended just in time for Forfar fans to catch the four-forty-four from Fife, arriving at Forfar at five-fifty-five.

Eric and Ernie!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Lord Voltermore on September 19, 2022, 11:09:08 AM

Glad I went for a hybrid!

Congrats, but we can’t predict the future. The R&D in battery technology is very active.
If the prices of electric cars drop with better range and weight  , possibly due to chinese competition, those hybrid will be worth 100 bucks
But  its probably safe to predict that some folk will only be able to afford gas guzzlers  for some years yet and whilst some will value them as heritage  'old timers'  there will be those who will  be pleased  when they can at last  afford one of the relatively few  quieter and more economical Hybrids that were produced in the  early 2020's.   And as improved  battery technology will initially only be available to those who can afford new cars , there will be those who have to wait even longer before they too can afford to  ignore hybrids and obsolete EV's.  I dont think their value will fall off a cliff at least until they are old enough to be ready for the scrap heap anyway . And might fetch a  good scrap price due to their rare metal content.

Less predictable is whether specialists will be able to economically refurbish older batteries with new ,possibly more efficient , cells.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on September 19, 2022, 11:14:58 AM
No doubt there will be complaints when used EV's are bought from Arthur Daley types that have very little range and/or charging capacity requiring an expensive new battery.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on September 20, 2022, 06:38:35 PM
Glad I went for a hybrid!
An EV makes sense for commuters who do a regular fairly low mileage that can be replenished by charging at home each night using cheap electricity and also for those with less regular but low to medium distance drives and have surplus power from solar panels.

For those with longer journeys or with no home charging then the hybrid drivetrain provides both better efficiency from the engine and many of the driving benefits of an EV. The hybrid also avoids the EV's range anxiety problem. I reckon that some more tweaking (in particular addressing the cold weather problem) and a bigger battery could further improve the efficiency.

Last week I went away for a few days holiday. I worked out the total distance in advance which, at about 470 miles, was well within the range of my Crosstar (my best distance between refills is 550 miles with several litres still in the tank) so I started with a full tank and refilled when I got home and no need to spend time topping up during the holiday. One thing Honda got right with the Mk. 4 Jazz was not shrinking the fuel tank.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kenneve on September 20, 2022, 07:34:20 PM
Totally agree with your sentiments John.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Lord Voltermore on September 25, 2022, 05:45:16 PM
I wonder if battery technology will ever  reach the point  where those able to charge at home  (and there are many who cant)  would be able to charge a home based storage battery 24/7  using solar panels . This battery could then charge the car   without having to pay anything to windfall tax dodgers. 

Or universal batteries where you literally   plug in a new one  at any filling station on an exchange basis, leaving one behind for recharging. Like a calor gas cylinder. 
 

I did read  a while ago of a portable battery that could give EV's a few extra miles of range.  But IIRC it was only about 20 miles or so, and it was the size of a suitcase.  And cost thousands  - they were trying to market them on a  leasing deal. . They did exist,  but probably  never a viable idea. At least with todays battery technology.

Lots of reasons why not.   Perhaps I shall go and invent one, and let some of my wealth trickle down to the minions.   ;D    If I inspire you to make your fortune, remember you heard it from me first and I dont mind being generously trickled on. 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Wilmo on September 25, 2022, 05:54:55 PM
There is a Sweden car maker who has exactly that system, can't remember the name.
When the battery gets low you go to their facility and an automatic system drops out the old battery pack and loads a fully charged replacement in a matter of minutes.
No waiting for hours at expense charge points to top up if you can find one.

My first electric car came from Scalextric the next will be the hearse.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 25, 2022, 09:53:35 PM
I wonder if battery technology will ever  reach the point  where those able to charge at home  (and there are many who cant)  would be able to charge a home based storage battery 24/7  using solar panels . This battery could then charge the car   without having to pay anything to windfall tax dodgers. 
That has been on the go for a while. I remember Robert Llewellyn on the "Fully Charged" site with his Tesla Powerwall battery system fed by solar panels to keep the car charged and provide energy when required for the house.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 25, 2022, 10:07:58 PM
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on September 26, 2022, 08:20:36 AM
I did read  a while ago of a portable battery that could give EV's a few extra miles of range.  But IIRC it was only about 20 miles or so, and it was the size of a suitcase.  And cost thousands  - they were trying to market them on a  leasing deal. . They did exist,  but probably  never a viable idea. At least with todays battery technology.
The battery pack in the Mk 4 Jazz is in that size range but only holds 1 kWh of charge. I think much of the bulk is due to the thermal management measures to keep the battery cells at a comfortable temperature. However, this problem is probably exacerbated by having a high kW rating with a low kWh capacity. If the kWh is doubled (which would give the Jazz several miles of extra range on battery) then, for the same kW, the demands on each cell will be halved and the overall thermal management problem is unchanged.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Neil Ives on September 26, 2022, 10:25:26 AM
.... I dont mind being generously trickled on.
:o
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Lord Voltermore on September 30, 2022, 04:18:23 PM
Did anyone watch "electric cars - which one should you buy"  on channel 5 the other night?  (available as catch up on my5) 

I didnt like the format  , usual emphasis on £1 million super cars , £150K mercedes, prototype extreme off roader etc.  But it did feature a couple of family EV's and the Honda E. Albeit the E was put through a childish obstacle course.   The presenter was very impressed with the E. 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: embee on September 30, 2022, 05:26:45 PM
Yes, unfortunately it was the now usual childish OMG superficial popcorn trivia that we can now expect of popular media......... otherwise an OK prog.
Again they simply quoted manufacturers range figures rather than actually doing any tests, and totally ignored energy usage (miles/kWh) and effective emissions resulting from power generation (gas fired power stations, CO2). It is generally implied that EVs are totally "clean".
The technology is improving rapidly, but the upfront cost is still eye-watering.
They did briefly broach the topic of manufacturers possibly producing low cost basic spec EV city cars, properly basic transport. That would interest me. Trouble is the profit margins are small so little incentive.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 30, 2022, 07:14:40 PM
They did briefly broach the topic of manufacturers possibly producing low cost basic spec EV city cars, properly basic transport. That would interest me. Trouble is the profit margins are small so little incentive.
What we need is the EV version of the Ford Popular. These cheap, no-frills cars worked once and will probably come into their own again. If China can sell them for £8K why cannot we get them?

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Lord Voltermore on October 01, 2022, 03:50:00 PM
Tata Tiago EV    $10,000  (I'd convert it to £'s but is there any point?  )  .     Only available in India
range only 250 km (155 miles) or 315 km (195 miles) with larger battery option.   


As the video says the Tiago has  "lots of Gismos to play around with ".   Some economies have been made, such as steel wheels with plastic hub caps, and possibly some things that are a legal requirement in Europe.

But its shows that EV prices could drop if european  buyers had an option to do with out some unecessary 'luxuries'. 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 01, 2022, 04:37:30 PM
possibly some things that are a legal requirement in Europe.
I wonder just how much rear seat belts and a rear fog lamp cost to add on.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on October 01, 2022, 08:55:12 PM
Tata Tiago EV    $10,000  (I'd convert it to £'s but is there any point?  )  .     Only available in India
range only 250 km (155 miles) or 315 km (195 miles) with larger battery option.   
Successor to the Tata Nano which didn't sell as well as expected despite the very attractive price tag https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tata_Nano ?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on October 02, 2022, 04:18:13 PM
Almost certainly would not meet EU safety standards.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on October 12, 2022, 11:52:43 PM
Range anxiety, no problem :

(https://i.imgur.com/0yXOoU5.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Neil Ives on October 13, 2022, 09:31:40 AM
I didn't know Tesla made a hybrid.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on October 13, 2022, 09:46:11 AM
Someone with a sense of humour.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 13, 2022, 10:46:58 AM
Some talk in the press this morning (i newspaper) that the EV transition period might be watered down. It was actually quite hard to follow but the thrust was that the percentage of zero emission vehicles each manufacturer is currently required to sell in the UK would be watered down. There was no indication that the 2030 date would change.

The other stat in this piece was that only 25% of UK households have access to off road parking. I think that may be true but the figure is complicated by the fact that this counts all households not all of whom own cars.

I wonder if, fairly soon, the 2030 deadline will be quietly dropped. It's 2035 in most of Europe.

The charging infrastructure remains poor and, according to some people I have spoken to, is getting worse as EVs are selling quite well but the infrastructure is failing to keep pace so queues for chargers are becoming more common.

I like to think of myself as reasonably concerned for the planet but I think there is a decent case for postponing the change until 2035.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on October 13, 2022, 10:30:10 PM
Some talk in the press this morning (i newspaper) that the EV transition period might be watered down. It was actually quite hard to follow but the thrust was that the percentage of zero emission vehicles each manufacturer is currently required to sell in the UK would be watered down. There was no indication that the 2030 date would change.

I like to think of myself as reasonably concerned for the planet but I think there is a decent case for postponing the change until 2035.
Another consideration is both the constraints on the supply of the chemicals needed to make the batteries and constraints on the battery production which mean that vehicle manufacturers will struggle to turn out the numbers of EVs needed to meet the targets and prices will stay high. Plus there's uncertainty about the ability of the UK grid to deliver the power to charge all those batteries. It would therefore be sensible to spread the batteries around and use them in full hybrids to improve the efficiency of ICE vehicles.

I would extend the deadline for the sale of full hybrids but keep the deadline for the sale of other ICE powered vehicles. Also encourage / extend the emissions control zones in the major urban areas to encourage the purchase of EVs by those who do a lot of miles in those areas.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 14, 2022, 12:09:41 PM
That's the way forward on reflection John. Hybrids only from 2030 but not just PHEVs.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 21, 2022, 08:47:25 PM
There are plans to build an 800-vehicle charging hub in Edinburgh. It will be the largest in Europe. It is to be built at Edinburgh Park, in the west of the city.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on November 22, 2022, 04:55:54 AM
Friend of mine drove down from Telford to west London for the Twickenham rugby last weekend.

He drove into a petrol station and saw half a dozen Teslas on charge with the owners in a huddle presumably discussing tactics whilst they waited, and waited..........

He was in and out in minutes.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on November 22, 2022, 10:57:36 AM
Gridwatch  https://gridwatch.co.uk/renewables   shows to day that wind power is 12% of total electrical demand. 
So much for windpower - this is NOT an isolated instance. Happened this time last year.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Lord Voltermore on November 22, 2022, 11:59:09 AM
There are plans to build an 800-vehicle charging hub in Edinburgh. It will be the largest in Europe. It is to be built at Edinburgh Park, in the west of the city.

How would this operate in practice?    Do 800 drivers need  divert from where they really want to go  to a location they dont want for the sole purpose of charging their cars?  Assuming they dont chose a time when 801 cars are trying to charge, causing  traffic chaos, and the  800 chargers are not suddenly down at the same time  because of a power outage, computer crash etc  causing not only chaos but a real dilemma for hundreds. 

  I assume you  wont be able to park on a charger all day ,or long enough to do useful things  ,so you wait  there doing nothing for as long as it takes to charge, before driving to your actual destination . With the temptation 800 spaces will be deducted from parking spaces in town for non EV's and charged cars and those that remain are less likely to get  their own chargers.  I'm sure locals wont be happy  if you cant get parked in the west of Edinburgh while  a significant number of those 800 spaces go unused.Will they then allow non Evs to park, wasting the installation of chargers and infrastructure that could have been better placed elsewhere. 
There may be a reason others are not planning  hubs this big.    :P
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 22, 2022, 12:36:27 PM
Parking in Edinburgh is almost non-existent anyway. Edinburgh tries to discourage motorists from going into the city (very successfully as far as I am concerned). They are talking about introducing a congestion charge for vehicles entering from outside the city (I am 400 yards outside that boundary). There are massive park-and-ride facilities at the approaches to the city.
Edinburgh Park is a vast new business hub. These spaces will be built to service a further expansion of office construction but will be available for use by anyone.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on November 22, 2022, 01:58:02 PM
Parking in Edinburgh is almost non-existent anyway. Edinburgh tries to discourage motorists from going into the city (very successfully as far as I am concerned). They are talking about introducing a congestion charge for vehicles entering from outside the city (I am 400 yards outside that boundary). There are massive park-and-ride facilities at the approaches to the city.
Edinburgh Park is a vast new business hub. These spaces will be built to service a further expansion of office construction but will be available for use by anyone.
Will commuters leave their vehicles charging all day or will there be, for example, a time charge to encourage people to escape from work and move their cars?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on November 22, 2022, 03:26:47 PM
Bath only has a handful of public-access chargers, but they're in public car parks where charges apply. So if you want to leave your EV there all day you can, but you pay the exorbitant parking charge - just like any other car - as well as whatever costs are levied by the company owning the charger. It wouldn't be beyond modern technology for the charger to start applying a surcharge if cars aren't unplugged once they're "full".
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Julian Okampos on December 31, 2022, 07:54:07 PM
The charging infrastructure remains poor and, according to some people I have spoken to, is getting worse as EVs are selling quite well but the infrastructure is failing to keep pace so queues for chargers are becoming more common. Anyway, my next car will be an EV and I will buy it via this public auction https://sca.auction/locations/branch-tx-houston-456 for sure.
True, there is little reason to buy an EV if you don't have your own house with a personal charger.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jazzik on December 31, 2022, 08:45:18 PM
The charging infrastructure remains poor and, according to some people I have spoken to, is getting worse as EVs are selling quite well but the infrastructure is failing to keep pace so queues for chargers are becoming more common.
True, there is little reason to buy an EV if you don't have your own house with a personal charger.

 ......and a roof completely covered with solar panels... (https://emojipedia-us.s3.dualstack.us-west-1.amazonaws.com/thumbs/120/sony/336/sun-with-face_1f31e.png)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on January 01, 2023, 03:26:04 AM
....... as confirmed with that reported 3 hour queue at South Mimms a few days ago.

....... whilst petrol/diesel vehicles come and go in minutes.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on January 01, 2023, 12:01:46 PM
This is all par for a Government which thinks that announcing a policy and its aims is all that is required to make it happen.

The phrase "joined up thinking" is not employed in use.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jazzdriver on January 01, 2023, 04:44:41 PM
I read of a small development of houses.  All the houses came with chargers for cars.  One purchaser was disappointed to find that the developer had downgraded the chargers, from the specified level, because the utility company said that it could not cope if several houses had electric cars.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on January 02, 2023, 04:18:39 AM
Not that long ago, SSEN told Ealing, Hounslow and Hillingdon councils not to approve any more new build houses because they had no more capacity to connect them to the electricity grid.

A few months later that was reversed but even so it shows how near capacity we are.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/west-london-electricity-shortage-housing-hounslow-ealing-hillingdon-b1031501.html
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on January 02, 2023, 10:41:15 AM
The National Grid in 2020 said:
"Our Head of Future Markets, Graeme Cooper, has long championed the adoption of EVs and is confident the grid can support the extra demand for electricity this transition will create.

"There is definitely enough energy and the grid can cope easily,”
"
https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero-stories/can-grid-cope-extra-demand-electric-cars


Of course he was lying.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on January 02, 2023, 11:59:56 AM
Of course he was lying.

Not necessarily. The quoted article seems to be referring to the total amount of generating capacity, and whether that will cope with the projected demand of EV charging; Mr Cooper's comments seem to suggest that's OK (although that may depend on whether the wind is blowing or the sun is shining). The previous comments in this thread are referring to local distribution infrastructure, and clearly that hasn't been designed with large-scale EV charging in mind, so not surprisingly there are going to be problems.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on January 02, 2023, 12:55:31 PM
What I don't get is that French EDF have said that if they get hit with a windfall tax they will turn off 'their' UK nuclear stations and go away.

Surely if they do that we can take them over and power them up ?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on January 02, 2023, 01:13:56 PM
Absolutely. I can't see any reason why not. Another reason for being as self sufficient as possible in energy including the ownership of critical assets.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Lincolnshire Rambler on January 02, 2023, 06:19:14 PM
Hi . I may have missed this topic as it’s 175 pages - but has anyone calculated how many MW of electrical power is needed to power a million golf sized cars doing 12,000 Miiles year? And take an all round yearly average KW/ mile of an EV ? I believe we have 33 million cars and vans on fossil fuels so wondered how the sums stack up for several million EVs replacing some of those eventually..&#129320;&#129320;
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 02, 2023, 07:51:11 PM
I reckon it would take about 33MWh per day to keep your million Golf doing that sort of mileage.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on January 03, 2023, 11:10:07 AM
Absolutely. I can't see any reason why not. Another reason for being as self sufficient as possible in energy including the ownership of critical assets.

There will be proprietary technology - software etc,- licensed by EDF.
The management contract will almost certainly say: no management contract, no proprietary software/hardware.


Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on January 06, 2023, 06:15:14 PM
Hi . I may have missed this topic as it’s 175 pages - but has anyone calculated how many MW of electrical power is needed to power a million golf sized cars doing 12,000 Miiles year? And take an all round yearly average KW/ mile of an EV ? I believe we have 33 million cars and vans on fossil fuels so wondered how the sums stack up for several million EVs replacing some of those eventually.
An efficient EV uses about 1kWh per 4 miles so 12,000 miles = 3,000kWh of electricity per year = 8.2kWh per day. One million of those vehicles = 8.2 GWh per day. If the charging is undertaken between midnight and 6am then there's an extra 1.37GW load on the grid which is easily accommodated https://gridwatch.co.uk/. If there are 10 million EVs being charged then the average charging load is a more significant 13.7GW. However, if 10% of those vehicles are trying to charge at 6pm on a day when the wind isn't blowing then the generating capacity could be overwhelmed. Use of smart chargers and smart tariffs can reduce the risk by making the cost of electricity during peak hours more expensive.The above calculation ignores energy used during charging (perhaps 95% efficiency?).

The other related issue, as already noted, is whether the local distribution network can handle the power and this depends on the rating of the chargers. On average, as per the calculation above, 8.2kWh of charging spread over 6 hours is a modest 1.37kW which is less than half the typical electric kettle. However, if it's a vehicle doing a daily 100 miles commute doing 3.5 miles per kWh then it uses 28.6kWh of electricity or 4.76kW if spread over 6 hours. It's the row of houses all doing that at the same time which may be worrying the distribution network operators who have been, BTW, progressively increasing the daily charge for having an electricity connection.

EVs make most sense for the shorter, usually urban, journeys where the impact of traffic and cold engines adversely affects vehicles with engines. They will therefore have reduced charging needs compared to the average. It will also be better for the planet if the average vehicle annual mileage reduces and the trend towards working from home should help this.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on January 11, 2023, 05:14:02 PM
Oh dear, glad I bought hybrid :

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/electriccars/article-11619661/Used-Tesla-values-come-crash-Prices-18k.html

Quote
The value of used Tesla electric cars has nosedived by a fifth in the last 12 months as demand for second-hand battery cars appears to have cooled, according to latest industry figures.

Used versions of the popular Tesla Model 3 - the second most-bought new electric car in Britain in 2022 - have crashed in value the most in the last 12 months, with one-year old examples down a massive 21 per cent on average, translating to a financial drop-off of almost £10,000.

Prices for the larger Model S saloon have also gone into freefall, declining by a whopping £18,000 as values slip by a 20.5 per cent.

Experts say the drop in second-hand prices is due to a combination of factors, including greater supply of new examples.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on January 12, 2023, 08:46:26 AM
Oh dear, glad I bought hybrid :

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/electriccars/article-11619661/Used-Tesla-values-come-crash-Prices-18k.html

There are numerous factors behind the drop in used EV prices including
Quote
It means that, for longer journeys, a petrol car will be more cost effective, costing around 17p per mile compared to an EV charged using a public device costing 20p for every mile.
A good hybrid is more likely to cost around 12p/mile at current petrol prices (depending on how / where it is driven).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on January 12, 2023, 09:38:06 AM
If prices have dropped, one contributing factor might be that the supply of used EVs has increased. Maybe more people are having experiences like Times journo Giles Coren, and getting rid of them because they’ve realised that EV ownership is more complicated than they’re prepared to put up with:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/why-ive-pulled-the-plug-on-my-electric-car-dwgs9l9hl
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on January 12, 2023, 10:02:46 AM
One other thing is that their battery packs are circa £17k.

That must mean that they become uneconomical to replace far sooner.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kenneve on January 12, 2023, 10:36:21 AM

There are numerous factors behind the drop in used EV prices including
A good hybrid is more likely to cost around 12p/mile at current petrol prices (depending on how / where it is driven).

I concur with those figures
My consumption over 16100 miles shows on the fibometer at 66.4mpg and with petrol currently at £1.54/gall, the cost works out around 10.5p per mile.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on January 12, 2023, 10:38:48 AM
... petrol currently at £1.54/gall, ...
I wish!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kenneve on January 12, 2023, 10:42:38 AM
... petrol currently at £1.54/gall, ...
I wish!

A few miles from me it’s down to £1.49. (West Midlands)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Lord Voltermore on January 12, 2023, 10:49:20 AM
Mid Kent, on Tuesday   BP filling station (not a supermarket  although it had  a Marks and Spencers mini supermarket) was £1.45 for E10    (nearby Sainsburys was 2p more last time I looked.

Same day in Canterbury, non supermarket was £1.49.   (others nearby were £1.54)

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kenneve on January 12, 2023, 10:57:29 AM
Mid Kent, on Tuesday   BP filling station (not a supermarket  although it had with a Marks and Spencers mini supermarket) was £1.45 for E10   

The nearby Sainsburys was 2p more expensive last time I looked.  Also on Tuesday I saw it at £1.49  in Canterbury,not supermarket.

Wow, if I could buy fuel at £1.45, that would bring the cost down to 9.93p per mile ;D
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Lord Voltermore on January 12, 2023, 12:01:23 PM
I think the percentage of EV drivers  reverting back to normal cars has been quite high for years.   I recall the example in the USA where an EV drivers  daily commute meant he couldnt quite make the last few miles home and had to stop for half an hour every day on a public charger.   >:( Not much brainpower went into his choice of vehicle. But maybe he was deceived by the advertised potential  range. 

     Also that the USA were planning EV charging stations  at certain distances on major  highways. In theory most EV's could pass one and reach the next with a small reserve.  But if that station had a supply or demand issue they could be well and truly, erm, scuppered.   
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: embee on January 12, 2023, 01:01:52 PM
I was out the other day and a driving school car came up behind me. This prompted me to start thinking about what is going to happen when the sales of new IC engine cars stops. Soon afterwards the practicality of driving schools using any manual car will disappear, all manuals will be getting too old. Will this mean that any new drivers will only be able to get auto licences come the 2030s? Maybe that won't be a problem, though if for example a driver in the 2030s wants a classic manual car they'll struggle to get a manual licence.

Just pondering the law of unintended consequences.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Pine on January 12, 2023, 01:27:23 PM
Sales of automatic cars have increased dramatically, even among so called driving enthusiasts, to the point that many now consider manual gearboxes so last centaury.  With sales of electric cars being made mandatory in the near future  manual gearboxes will be consigned to the history books.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 12, 2023, 01:41:55 PM
if for example a driver in the 2030s wants a classic manual car they'll struggle to get a manual licence.
I do not think it would be a struggle. Think about it. We all learned to drive coping with steering, gears, clutch, accelerator, brake and traffic. When I had the automatic my wife was considering learning to drive and I thought it a great idea to learn on the automatic, then, having passed her test and gained experience, she could upgrade her licence by learning the clutch and gears while being happy in traffic and the rest of driving. Any experienced driver of an automatic should be able to master a manual in a couple of hours. Clutch and gears were the least of my worries as a learner,
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on January 12, 2023, 01:49:48 PM
... petrol currently at £1.54/gall, ...
I wish!

A few miles from me it’s down to £1.49. (West Midlands)

The subtlety of my tongue-in-cheek observation has obviously been missed. Petrol has not been at £1.54 per gallon for many years. Round here it's about £1.50 per litre, which is roughly £6.80 per gallon.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jazzik on January 12, 2023, 04:54:06 PM
Perhaps the supply of used EVs is not only due to people stupid enough to buy a Jaguar iPace (https://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/midi/boese/d026.gif), but also to those early adopters who made a better choice and sell/trade in their first EV (or already the second?) and buy (again) a new one?

(https://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/midi/froehlich/a068.gif)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kenneve on January 12, 2023, 04:56:14 PM
ColinB
My apologies, I totally missed that. Yes it’s long time since fuel has been £1.54 per Gallon.
Mind you, I’m old enough to remember it being 5/- shillings (25p)  per gallon, probably around 1955 ;D
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on January 12, 2023, 05:30:45 PM
I could fill my Mini in ~1971 from empty for £1 10s
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 12, 2023, 06:13:23 PM
When I started driving in 1965, according to here: https://www.retrowow.co.uk/social_history/60s/cost_1965.php (https://www.retrowow.co.uk/social_history/60s/cost_1965.php)
petrol was 6/2d/gal which, adjusted for inflation works out at £4.60 a gallon.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on January 13, 2023, 04:20:48 PM
..... and just to add to the list of potential problems :

Quote
Weight of electric vehicles could cause 'catastrophic' damage and 'lead to car parks collapsing'

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/cars/news/weight-of-electric-vehicles-could-cause-catastrophic-damage-and-lead-to-car-parks-collapsing/ar-AA15p3NF#:~:text=Feedback-,Weight%20of%20electric%20vehicles%20could%20cause%20%27catastrophic%27%20damage%20and%20%27,lead%20to%20car%20parks%20collapsing%27&text=Multi%2Dstorey%20and%20underground%20car,electric%20vehicles%2C%20engineers%20have%20warned.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 13, 2023, 06:34:47 PM
Scaremongering at its best. All they need do is enlarge the bays (so that standard-shaped human beings can get in and out of their cars without having to be contortionists) and that will reduce the loading. Oh but hold on a minute. That might cost them revenue. Well, we will just have to let them fall down then.
And for a bit of clarity. The heaviest Tesla Model 3 is only 14% heavier than the lightest Honda CR-V.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jazzik on January 13, 2023, 06:39:37 PM
Around 1900 my great-grandfather's horses did many many miles on a small bag of oats, which cost him hardly anything, because he grew it himself.
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSljbFbhi-rR_bceL8x303CoIlINHMZqhD-3KccRXDDlfCPNnEBpSYZcw3XUZ-2UHuO2EE&usqp=CAU)

Oh, sorry, this also belongs in a history book... (https://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/midi/konfus/c066.gif)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kenneve on January 13, 2023, 07:16:20 PM
..... and just to add to the list of potential problems :

Quote
Weight of electric vehicles could cause 'catastrophic' damage and 'lead to car parks collapsing'

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/cars/news/weight-of-electric-vehicles-could-cause-catastrophic-damage-and-lead-to-car-parks-collapsing/ar-AA15p3NF#:~:text=Feedback-,Weight%20of%20electric%20vehicles%20could%20cause%20%27catastrophic%27%20damage%20and%20%27,lead%20to%20car%20parks%20collapsing%27&text=Multi%2Dstorey%20and%20underground%20car,electric%20vehicles%2C%20engineers%20have%20warned.

According to Parker’s website, the Mk4 EX e-hev Jazz is only 12% (134kg) heavier, than the previous MK3 EX Jazz , hardly a catastrophic increase!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 13, 2023, 10:08:28 PM
Around 1900 my great-grandfather's horses did many many miles on a small bag of oats, which cost him hardly anything, because he grew it himself.
And horses, as a form of travel, were replaced by the automobile almost overnight. Without government legislation.

(https://miro.medium.com/max/946/0*NnLoMvjlZIeGEc4Z.png)
(https://alearningadayblog.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/nyc-1913.png)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on January 13, 2023, 10:53:49 PM
Tesla has now dropped the price of new vehicles https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64266471 which will push the cost of second hand ones down another notch. Those who have just taken delivery of a new Tesla aren't happy!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Lord Voltermore on January 15, 2023, 03:00:20 PM
Scaremongering at its best. All they need do is enlarge the bays (so that standard-shaped human beings can get in and out of their cars without having to be contortionists) and that will reduce the loading. Oh but hold on a minute. That might cost them revenue. Well, we will just have to let them fall down then.
And for a bit of clarity. The heaviest Tesla Model 3 is only 14% heavier than the lightest Honda CR-V.
Scaremongering for buyers.  But it is something architects and civil engineers have to consider.  Many EV's weigh over 2tonnes  some nearly 3 tonnes  and a few over 4 tonnes. A loading safe for standard cars, typically 1.2 tonnes , may  be dangerous if there is a concentration of EV's.  A few shoddy multistories may have to close or be  renovated, or parking spaces reduced. .   I know of one multi-storey that installed about 20 charging points  in  a row.     

  There is a bridge near me where a 10 ton vehicle fell through the bridge into the river.  OK it was in 1914 and it was a traction engine,  but too heavy is too heavy. possibly only 3 ev's worth.   (even within my memory the bridge had an "Unsuitable for charabancs" sign )     Maybe there will soon be "only one EV allowed at a time " signs  ;D   
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 15, 2023, 04:14:11 PM
But it is something architects and civil engineers have to consider.
Without a doubt. There are already many bridges with weight limits and perhaps, as you say, they will have to limit the number of vehicles allowed to cross at a time.
What EV weighs over 4 tonnes?
The heaviest car on the list of almost 70 EVs is the Mercedes-Benz EQV luxury passenger van, which is not far from 3,000 kg. 3 tonnes.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jazzik on January 15, 2023, 04:33:49 PM
What EV weighs over 4 tonnes?
The heaviest car on the list of almost 70 EVs is the Mercedes-Benz EQV luxury passenger van, which is not far from 3,000 kg. 3 tonnes.

Put 5 sturdy, well-fed, obese American (sorry, not only American) persons in that Mercedes and there you are. And then we are not even mentioning the fact that there is room for 8 people... ???

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQtttfus0cH_WENNJ8XNPnCRIxMCwePfNPHhncVgtNvwsvACNjXhC7UwnT3dT2qglDX2bg&usqp=CAU)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Lord Voltermore on January 15, 2023, 05:33:10 PM

What EV weighs over 4 tonnes?


GMC Hummer      the lightest is 4100 kg  the heaviest  4282 kg.      Maybe not common  in the UK (wont they need to ensure they have  a 7.5 tonne driving licence?)   but if the Hummer enthusiast  club  have a club meeting , maybe they will all end up in a river.   ;D  Full of fatties that could be 5 tonne each. I wonder if they would obey a  3.5 tonne weight limit.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 15, 2023, 06:15:17 PM
As there are only 137 General Motors vehicles registered on UK roads I would assume that Humvee EVs are a very small percentage but I grant you, it does weigh over 4 tonnes, half as much again as a standard Humvee.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on January 16, 2023, 10:01:10 AM
Heavy cars and snow and ice are NOT easy to control. See U Tube videos.
Most EVs have tyres optimised for fuel consumption so us in bad conditions.

I expect EV car prices to fall - lots more to come. 30% and I will think of buying (used  not new)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Neil Ives on January 17, 2023, 01:56:54 PM
While at the supermarket just now I noticed a vehicle recharging at one of the provided charging points. The connection cable was still semi coiled and laid across a pedestrian walkway. I was wondering who would be legally responsible for injuries caused by a pedestrian tripping up on the cable. In a situation where a trip hazard is in a public area the person causing the hazard has to be responsible for safety of the public. In the past when I had to lay a cable across the footway to charge the battery of my old Land Rover that lived on the street I put rubber car mats over the cable to try to be safe. If I was taken to court I could point out that I had taken steps to make the situation as safe as possible. I would do the same thing again if I had to charge the batteries of an EV.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on January 17, 2023, 02:33:17 PM
I can see trip hazard wires being in every street as EV increases and fuel declines.

I can also see many copper cables being cut and/or stolen overnight.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Lord Voltermore on January 17, 2023, 02:41:03 PM
 VW currently (excuse pun) have a series of humorous  ident adverts   where they are sponsoring the TV programme.    There is one where an old woman unplugs their  EV  ,throws the lead on the ground  with contempt,  then plugs her own car in. 

The humour is they were prevented from carrying out things  such covert hi tech surveillance, Energising Frankenstein's monster, torturing someone with electrodes etc.  I dont expect to do any of these things for a while, but the ads certainly dont encourage me to buy an EV. :P 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jazzik on January 17, 2023, 02:49:30 PM
I was wondering who would be legally responsible for injuries caused by a pedestrian tripping up on the cable.

(https://www.specsavers.co.uk/sites/aui/22.12.4/bundles/pageparts/images/page-parts/1/XS_Specsavers_Logo_opt.svg) ?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on January 17, 2023, 03:25:03 PM
I can see trip hazard wires being in every street as EV increases and fuel declines.

I can also see many copper cables being cut and/or stolen overnight.

I've often wondered if there are any stats on charging cables, at home chargers etc being stolen. To be fair I haven't heard of any but it must happen?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on January 17, 2023, 03:32:34 PM
While at the supermarket just now I noticed a vehicle recharging at one of the provided charging points. The connection cable was still semi coiled and laid across a pedestrian walkway. I was wondering who would be legally responsible for injuries caused by a pedestrian tripping up on the cable. In a situation where a trip hazard is in a public area the person causing the hazard has to be responsible for safety of the public. In the past when I had to lay a cable across the footway to charge the battery of my old Land Rover that lived on the street I put rubber car mats over the cable to try to be safe. If I was taken to court I could point out that I had taken steps to make the situation as safe as possible. I would do the same thing again if I had to charge the batteries of an EV.

I would sue the site owner:
1. they have more money than a simple driver
2. It is their responsibility to ensure the layout and operation of the site are safe and normal operation does not have cables across pedestrian pathways.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 17, 2023, 03:41:25 PM
They probably have signs up saying "Trip hazard" and pass the blame onto the person who falls.
As for unplugging a car to plug yours in. Charging cables are locked into the vehicle and charger while charging, to avoid such an occurrence. Another example of VW telling lies! Oops. As a new VAG owner, I shouldn't have said that.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on January 17, 2023, 03:42:53 PM
While at the supermarket just now I noticed a vehicle recharging at one of the provided charging points. The connection cable was still semi coiled and laid across a pedestrian walkway. I was wondering who would be legally responsible for injuries caused by a pedestrian tripping up on the cable. In a situation where a trip hazard is in a public area the person causing the hazard has to be responsible for safety of the public. In the past when I had to lay a cable across the footway to charge the battery of my old Land Rover that lived on the street I put rubber car mats over the cable to try to be safe. If I was taken to court I could point out that I had taken steps to make the situation as safe as possible. I would do the same thing again if I had to charge the batteries of an EV.

I live in a terraced house, and this is starting to happen in my street so I tried to find out what the legal position is. Best I could find out is that there's no law, bye-law, or regulation against it, but the person placing the cable is responsible for any injury or damage resulting. That's irrespective of any measures taken to reduce the risk (eg mats or signage): they created the hazard so they're responsible. After all, a guide dog might not be able to read the sign or appreciate the trip hazard ...
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on January 17, 2023, 03:48:13 PM
Yep, a street of terraced houses, in years to come, when most cars are EV is going to be a nightmare.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: embee on January 17, 2023, 05:00:14 PM
Charge cables draped across a footpath can easily be guarded by placing a couple of wheelie bins over them .........   ;D
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Lord Voltermore on January 17, 2023, 05:45:27 PM

As for unplugging a car to plug yours in. Charging cables are locked into the vehicle and charger while charging, to avoid such an occurrence. Another example of VW telling lies! Oops. As a new VAG owner, I shouldn't have said that.
Its  tongue in cheek and  even if its not possible its apparently happening to the detriment of a VAG EV .Not a rival make or fuel system.   Just ill advised IMO.  I think there is an advert for a  self charging hybrid where the  car drives  past  coiling cables sparking away at the road side. Nissan  I think. Even more deceptive I think are these ev adverts where the bright young things breeze about then plug into a very convenient charging point right outside their city apartment. In one ad they even drive through a forest  then stop at a charging point in the forest.   Maybe there are charging points in car parks near trees but they kind of glossed over that. 

Interesting that the giant EV battery plant planned for the Uk, expecting  billions in investment , has just gone tits up.   Maybe a non EU location  with UK wages and  doubts about the future market for EV's or  a big breakthrough in battery technology leaving them with  a huge plant making old technology nobody wants.  ? 

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 17, 2023, 07:55:21 PM
I think a leap forward in battery technology is just around the corner.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jazzik on January 17, 2023, 10:48:15 PM
Yep, a street of terraced houses, in years to come, when most cars are EV is going to be a nightmare.

Simple but ingenious: the cable tray tile. In Dutch, but subtitles available in lots of languages:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wX3XTJ0bdw


(https://cgconcept.be/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/07/auto-2-344x445.jpeg)

No more nightmares!  ;D
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on January 18, 2023, 05:14:40 AM
That is OK if you have a flat cable but as posted, and from those I've seen, a lot are curled wires which draped across a footpath would impede the blind and wheelchairs, etc.

But I'd take bets on those who would just drape their curly cables across a pavement.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on January 18, 2023, 08:09:06 AM
Yep, a street of terraced houses, in years to come, when most cars are EV is going to be a nightmare.

Simple but ingenious: the cable tray tile. In Dutch, but subtitles available in lots of languages:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wX3XTJ0bdw


(https://cgconcept.be/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/07/auto-2-344x445.jpeg)

No more nightmares!  ;D

You’d think that would be OK, wouldn’t you? I know it’s been trialled in UK, but some local authorities are dead set against it. In my area, for example, they’ve rejected it (without having a viable alternative). I suspect the problem is that the pavement is owned by the local council, so they would be the ones liable for any issues and ongoing maintenance. And of course the householder would want his own personal reserved parking space so he could use it, which is another no-no on the public highway.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on January 18, 2023, 12:01:30 PM
Imagine Planning Permission needed for 100 houses, each one separately applied for..
Could take years
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on January 18, 2023, 01:26:26 PM
This is why the public charging network needs to be 100% better than it is now. We are currently in a perfect storm where EV sales are climbing but the roll out of public charges is glacial by comparison.

You don't need to be an EV sceptic to recognise this. Some of the early adopters, like EVM on You Tube are sounding the alarm with some regularity now.

The government and the motor industry need to make a number of assumptions and plan accordingly.

1) 40% of people will not charge at home - this will be forever. Terraced houses, flats, even some semis (my daughter has a semi with no off road parking).

2) Not all work places will be able to have enough chargers. The guy in charge of these things at my daughter's 6th form college has done scoping studies on this. 40% of staff won't have charging at home and will want to charge at work. They have space for around a dozen chargers - this will entail a rota system with teachers and other staff vacating chargers between lessons so others can charge.

3) 2030 is too ambitious - put it back to 2035 in line with most other countries.

Finally, I don't know what the situation is like in other areas but the 4 big supermarkets near us - Tesco, Sainsburys, Morrisons and Asda don't have a single charger on their large car parks which are rarely full. They either need a kick up the jacksie or some incentive to put some in.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on January 18, 2023, 01:37:57 PM
My local Tesco has 4 places round a single charge point, but, at 08:00 when Tesco opens the 4 places are taken by the same staff cars that rotate round. Always the same 6 to 8 cars I recognise.

Shoppers don't get a look in.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 18, 2023, 01:38:27 PM
I think that as EVs increase in numbers supermarkets with charging points will see sales increase and those without will see sales decrease. And supermarkets are exceptionally market savvy. It will just take one in a town to bite the bullet and the rest will have to follow.
I drive past my local Morrisons to go to Tesco because Tesco sells E5 and Morrisons doesn't. The same will happen with chargers.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Lord Voltermore on January 18, 2023, 02:17:58 PM
 New Lidl near me has 4 chargers . I think they were working, although none had cars  .

Although there will be  genuine claims  for accidents caused by trailing cables etc  there will also be a rise in fraudulent claims . If you have anything , however discrete , well planned  ,and indeed safe, somewhere which has   public access, there will be criminals  claiming they tripped over it.    It may get like the USA where if a bus has a slight shunt in traffic, videos have shown several  bystanders rushing to board the bus so they can claim compensation as passengers. 

It may come to the point where  car insurance, or house insurance may cover public liability for EV cable claims. Maybe they do already. We all end up paying. It would at least highlight serial claimants.    But I'd still be suspicious if confronted by  an 'injured person', maybe complete with an 'independent witness'  who suggested that despite their pain and trauma  caused by your alleged negligence   they would be willing to accept compensation in cash out of court.   ;)       
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on January 18, 2023, 03:12:57 PM
As well as a dashcam you might need a cablecam.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on January 18, 2023, 05:11:50 PM
I forgot to mention Lidl - to be fair the Warrington store near to me does have chargers. Time for the big boys to step up.

I'm particularly disappointed with Sainsburys - there are a lot of new build flats near the store. They could have got ahead of the curve here.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jazzik on January 18, 2023, 05:27:38 PM
You’d think that would be OK, wouldn’t you? I know it’s been trialled in UK, but some local authorities are dead set against it. In my area, for example, they’ve rejected it (without having a viable alternative).

In the Netherlands, some local authorities are against it. And not without having a viable alternative...  ;D
These local authorities have invested in charging points in many places, where you can charge your EV.
Of course: payment of a much higher KW rate than at home. And: if the charging point is located in an area where you have to pay for parking, you will also pay a parking fee. Guess where you will find most of these charging stations...

So... why facilitate (safe) cheap charging at your front door with cable tray tiles on which the municipality earns nothing?
Fortunately, this is not the case everywhere, in many places the local authorities are cooperating.


Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on January 18, 2023, 10:38:45 PM
3) 2030 is too ambitious - put it back to 2035 in line with most other countries.
It's a no-brainer to re-interpret the 2030 target as meaning no sale of pure ICE vehicles but hybrids can continue to be sold for a further few years as part of an orderly transition which recognises the constraints in sourcing materials for building EVs, affordability and the creation of an adequate charging infrastructure.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on January 19, 2023, 12:52:27 AM
As well as a dashcam you might need a cablecam.

On a Tesla it is called 'Sentry mode' and it has been around for a while...

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Lord Voltermore on January 20, 2023, 03:05:51 PM
I'm particularly disappointed with Sainsburys - there are a lot of new build flats near the store. They could have got ahead of the curve here.
No incentive to provide chargers, and parking space  for the convenience of local residents. Unless they have ample parking and charge enough to make it a nice little earner. But if  they suddenly restrict them to shoppers only the residents will be outraged at the loss of a facility they relied upon.   

I'm wondering about those cable trays.  In my area at least the council   approve and install  dropped kerbs so you can park on your own  property.  Only the councils approved contractor can actually drop the kerb and in true council fashion the cost is about 3 times what it should be. If the council also controlled the installation of cable trays in suitable situations  there are fortunes to be made for somebody. 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on January 27, 2023, 03:44:39 PM
Daily Telegraph :

Quote
In my current petrol car, I can guarantee 300+ miles regardless of lights, wipers and air-con, without having to take an hour at an inconvenient location to recharge. Going out for a day or weekend means 100-250 miles, in a direction I like without regard to non-existent chargers in country areas. I do not believe Telegraph writers can recommend an electric car capable of this and costing less than £20,000.


Step 1 - DON'T !
That's about it really


20% of UK homes are apartments.
25% of UK homes are terraced.
So thats 45% of UK homes that do not have off-street home charging.
Be aware trailing charging cables across footpaths creates an injury risk - you could be sued for substantial personal claims - you could also be charged with causing injury, or even death.


''especially if you are able to charge them at your home using as yet untaxed electricity.''
The elephant in the room.
How long do you think the largesse of untaxed electricity will last?
I doubt it will last till the First of January 2030.
Every new home now has to have a car charging point - how soon before the government or the local council sticks on a Home Charging Point Tax?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Westy36 on January 27, 2023, 09:13:50 PM
I read recently that EV values are on the way down. Tesla just dropped their list prices by many thousands. Looks like the pence per mile is not so attractive these days.

https://cardealermagazine.co.uk/publish/official-tesla-model-y-loses-14k-in-four-months-as-ev-prices-tank-further-in-january/278815
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on March 20, 2023, 07:34:34 AM
Interesting story this morning
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-64964294
An excerpt:
“One of the most common questions we get asked is how we're going to charge the car in the polar regions where there's no electricity source," Mrs Ramsey said.
"There will be a wind turbine and full double solar on this device which will be towed along, harnessing the renewable energy sources - the wind and the sun - to power the car.”

It’s noticeable that the publicity photos don’t contain any images of this towed device, nor is there any data about how long a recharge will take. I’m reminded of the journey in the book “The Martian”, where the (fictional) astronaut has to spend most of his daylight hours waiting for his many square metres of solar panels to recharge his vehicle enough for a relatively short drive.

Still, they’ve got previous in having completed the Mongol Rally in a Nissan Leaf, so good luck to ‘em.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: guest9236 on March 20, 2023, 08:48:25 AM
I read recently that EV values are on the way down. Tesla just dropped their list prices by many thousands. Looks like the pence per mile is not so attractive these days.

https://cardealermagazine.co.uk/publish/official-tesla-model-y-loses-14k-in-four-months-as-ev-prices-tank-further-in-january/278815

Who in there right mind would even consider  a so called green car EV.
In a few years time there will be massive heaps of green EV detritus  littering our Green and now not so pleasant land  this will include second hand  cars that no one will consider purchasing because a new battery will be so costly.
Absolute madness  another buy a diesel car rip off  of recent times  Remember!!
We are  being led by the nose to a ludicrous so called net zero  that will leave the UK in  energy poverty  No gas,no oil,no coal, electricity shortages of continuous extra lengthening periods  welcome to Net everything
I expect this diatribe of mine will receive  contributions etc  but only time will tell whether the truth will avail itself.
This will be for the younger folk to discover in due time but I will say that with age comes experience and wisdom.
Look out.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on March 20, 2023, 11:09:08 AM
For many electric vehicles, there is no way to repair or assess even slightly damaged battery packs after accidents, forcing insurance companies to write off cars with few miles - leading to higher premiums and undercutting gains from going electric.

And now those battery packs are piling up in scrapyards in some countries, a previously unreported and expensive gap in what was supposed to be a "circular economy."

"We're buying electric cars for sustainability reasons," said Matthew Avery, research director at automotive risk intelligence company Thatcham Research. "But an EV isn't very sustainable if you've got to throw the battery away after a minor collision."

Battery packs can cost tens of thousands of dollars and represent up to 50% of an EV's price tag, often making it uneconomical to replace them.

While some automakers like Ford Motor Co (F.N) and General Motors Co (GM.N) said they have made battery packs easier to repair, Tesla Inc (TSLA.O) has taken the opposite tack with its Texas-built Model Y, whose new structural battery pack has been described by experts as having "zero repairability."

Tesla did not respond to a request for comment.

Unless Tesla and other carmakers produce more easily repairable battery packs and provide third-party access to battery cell data, already-high insurance premiums will keep rising as EV sales grow and more low-mileage cars get scrapped after collisions, insurers and industry experts said.

"The number of cases is going to increase, so the handling of batteries is a crucial point," said Christoph Lauterwasser, managing director of the Allianz Center for Technology, a research institute owned by Allianz (ALVG.DE).

Lauterwasser noted EV battery production emits far more CO2 than fossil-fuel models, meaning EVs must be driven for thousands of miles before they offset those extra emissions.

"If you throw away the vehicle at an early stage, you've lost pretty much all advantage in terms of CO2 emissions," he said.

There are a growing number of repair shops specializing in repairing EVs and replacing batteries. In Phoenix, Arizona, Gruber Motor Co has mostly focused on replacing batteries in older Tesla models.

But insurers cannot access Tesla's battery data, so they have taken a cautious approach, owner Peter Gruber said.

"An insurance company is not going to take that risk because they're facing a lawsuit later on if something happens with that vehicle and they did not total it," he said.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 20, 2023, 01:05:15 PM
Companies are opening up in the UK to repair EV battery packs. They are just composed of cells linked together, the same as lead acid batteries, and defective and damaged cells can be replaced. There is no super science involved. It requires the skills of a competent electrician.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Lord Voltermore on March 20, 2023, 04:08:37 PM
I hope there will be an increase of companies offering cost effective  refurbishment, or new replacements ,for EV batteries .     But I suspect there will also be an increase in users of older EV's  whos battery is well past its  best  and delivering a range well below what it could deliver when new  .Which was never that impressive.  .

The result?  - The inadequate supply of public charging points will be increasingly occupied by  old EV's needing frequent top ups. 

  Maybe there will be an increase in car renovators repairing and  welding up  a diminishing number of old petrol and diesel 'classics'.( And hybrids.)  Assuming you can still get petrol.   In the very early days of petrol cars pioneers had to obtain petrol in cans from hardware stores and chemists. So there  may be other reasons to regret how many hardware shops and pharmacies are currently closing in the uk  ;D     
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 20, 2023, 06:51:29 PM
Not just in cans. They used to sell petrol by the jar. Mind you. The car needed a full service and oil change for every jar of petrol used.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Lord Voltermore on March 21, 2023, 10:19:51 AM
I can remember  buying paraffin at the hardware shop or from mobile Esso Blue and Aladdin pink  vans

Some petrol stations had a special 'two stroke' petrol pump that dispensed it ready mixed.  But most just had a portable  container of two stroke oil, where you squirted a dose of oil in your tank before filling with petrol.

In Asia I have seen roadside vendors displaying bottles of petrol for motorcyclists  . (and street sellers selling a single cigarette - normal tobacco ones  ;) )
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 21, 2023, 11:58:06 AM
When I was a teenager the local shops would sell "a thrupenny single".
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on March 21, 2023, 12:05:59 PM
I would love an electric car but today I was doing a bit of battery charging and I thought, "do I need more of this". I have to charge and recharge, on a regular basis:
Mobile phone
Laptop
Toothbrush
Kindle
Fitbit
Torch
Water flosser
Camera
Flashgun
Tyre pump
Dashcam power supply
Numerous rechargeable batteries used in remotes and the like.

Do I really want to have to charge my car up as well?

Mind you, I connect my ICE car to the SMART charger every time I return from a journey (which involves unlocking and re-locking the garage each time) so an EV might be easier.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on May 23, 2023, 06:57:30 PM
This could be the breakthrough EVs are waiting for.

https://www.independent.co.uk/tech/electric-car-battery-range-record-b2343579.html (https://www.independent.co.uk/tech/electric-car-battery-range-record-b2343579.html)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on May 24, 2023, 05:58:46 PM
This could be the breakthrough EVs are waiting for.

https://www.independent.co.uk/tech/electric-car-battery-range-record-b2343579.html (https://www.independent.co.uk/tech/electric-car-battery-range-record-b2343579.html)
One side-effect of the higher battery capacity is that it is likely to take twice as long to recharge. Will it also be proportionately more expensive?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Lord Voltermore on May 24, 2023, 08:08:47 PM
Just completed a long transcontinental trip. Twice I got held up by Trucks 'elephant racing'  . (ie blocking both lanes for about 5 miles because one  attempts  to overtake the others and cannot manage it)

The relevance?  On both occasions,  hidden among the herd of 'elephants' struggling up the hill  (so slowly one  truck got impatient)  was a Tesla  . It appeared to be  tailgating the the trucks to gain from their slipstream to hypermile its range. Car traffic was light so in both cases it was driver choice to remain in the herd. 

If thats what it may take to get home or to the next charging point count me out. A view of the back of a truck and anxiously watching your remaining range ticking down. :o

Even with a 1000km  range the route we took and the hotels we used would not have been possible.  The infrastructure and charging time needs of the car  would dictate   our plans.    And no doubt 1000km range is under ideal conditions, with warm weather, modest speed, flat terrain, and as much as possible switched off.   

  And as John says I expect the battery maker and car maker will want their development investment back before rivals catch up. 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on May 26, 2023, 11:19:43 AM
I think you two haven't clicked and read the whole article. Price will be competitive and charge time appropriate. For me, the main issue is the capacity in the network to provide that amount of charge in the shortest time possible, for multiple vehicles at highway charge stations.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Lord Voltermore on May 27, 2023, 07:57:25 AM
Probably not all 179 pages   :-[  I am not anti EV's   . I'd love for them to be viable. One day EV 's and my needs will match. 

I saw Tesla chargers at the Eurotunnel  Terminal. I could have got out of bed half an hour earlier to allow time for a quick recharge before crossing to France.    I didnt see another charging point  in my 1500 + mile journey. To be fair I wasnt looking for them, or planning my journey around them ,or driving further out of my way to reach them.

Maybe they are available on motorways service areas  , but I preferred to save 0.50 euro per litre buying petrol in small local filling stations. (with no 30 minute plus charging time )   Saved enough cash to pay for Dinner. :-* Yes maybe I have a higher carbon footprint but I economise elsewhere - walking to the shops etc.

 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Bazzzer on July 26, 2023, 08:32:10 PM
Oh dear! Electric car catches fire on ship.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-66310280
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on July 27, 2023, 05:43:55 AM
I haven't searched but none of the reports have identified the car manufacturer
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on July 27, 2023, 10:35:03 AM
Oh dear! Electric car catches fire on ship.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-66310280

That’s just a theory.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on July 27, 2023, 11:22:37 AM
I haven't searched but none of the reports have identified the car manufacturer
3,000 VW cars on board allegedly
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on July 29, 2023, 07:51:46 AM
Quote
About a decade ago, Tesla rigged the dashboard readouts in its electric cars to provide “rosy” projections of how far owners can drive before needing to recharge, a source told Reuters. The automaker last year became so inundated with driving-range complaints that it created a special team to cancel owners’ service appointments.


In March, Alexandre Ponsin set out on a family road trip from Colorado to California in his newly purchased Tesla, a used 2021 Model 3. He expected to get something close to the electric sport sedan’s advertised driving range: 353 miles on a fully charged battery.

He soon realized he was sometimes getting less than half that much range, particularly in cold weather – such severe underperformance that he was convinced the car had a serious defect.

“We’re looking at the range, and you literally see the number decrease in front of your eyes,” he said of his dashboard range meter.

Ponsin contacted Tesla and booked a service appointment in California. He later received two text messages, telling him that “remote diagnostics” had determined his battery was fine, and then: “We would like to cancel your visit.”

What Ponsin didn’t know was that Tesla employees had been instructed to thwart any customers complaining about poor driving range from bringing their vehicles in for service. Last summer, the company quietly created a “Diversion Team” in Las Vegas to cancel as many range-related appointments as possible.

The Austin, Texas-based electric carmaker deployed the team because its service centers were inundated with appointments from owners who had expected better performance based on the company’s advertised estimates and the projections displayed by the in-dash range meters of the cars themselves, according to several people familiar with the matter.


A Tesla logo shown outside a Beijing showroom. The automaker’s estimates of its electric vehicles’ driving range have been among the most aggressive in the industry. It has faced thousands of complaints from customers disappointed by the vehicles’ real-world performance. REUTERS/Thomas Peter
Inside the Nevada team’s office, some employees celebrated canceling service appointments by putting their phones on mute and striking a metal xylophone, triggering applause from coworkers who sometimes stood on desks. The team often closed hundreds of cases a week and staffers were tracked on their average number of diverted appointments per day.

Managers told the employees that they were saving Tesla about $1,000 for every canceled appointment, the people said. Another goal was to ease the pressure on service centers, some of which had long waits for appointments.

In most cases, the complaining customers’ cars likely did not need repair, according to the people familiar with the matter. Rather, Tesla created the groundswell of complaints another way – by hyping the range of its futuristic electric vehicles, or EVs, raising consumer expectations beyond what the cars can deliver. Teslas often fail to achieve their advertised range estimates and the projections provided by the cars’ own equipment, according to Reuters interviews with three automotive experts who have tested or studied the company’s vehicles.

Neither Tesla nor Chief Executive Elon Musk responded to detailed questions from Reuters for this story.
Title: The times, they are a changing
Post by: ColinB on August 24, 2023, 01:33:09 PM
Just seen a driving school using an EV for tuition. I suppose it had to come, but it was a surprise nevertheless. Raises the question of what sort of licence a driver gets if they pass their test in an EV? Is there an EV-only licence, or is it a normal automatic-only licence?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on August 24, 2023, 01:54:24 PM
I guess auto only

I'd be interested in the 3 point turn and stopping at traffic lights, etc, on test, is brake hold acceptable
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on August 24, 2023, 05:52:02 PM
Just on EVs more generally, I don't know what it's like round your way but I am seeing a quantum leap in the number of EVs. I see a lot of Teslas but also many many vehicles with the new green strip on the number plate. Manufacturers now simply don't advertise straight ICE vehicles any more - it's all EVs and hybrids. The industry itself now doesn't want the 2030 date changed because they are investing and have invested in the transition.

There are loads of reasons to question our preparedness as a nation for EVs but I get the sense that anybody hoping for a change in government policy is going to be disappointed.

In 2030, ICE vehicles will still be in the majority. One estimate I saw was 21 million ICE cars and 10 million EVs by the end of 2030. This means you'll still be able to fill up your ICE car but a guy in the trade reckons that by 2040 the ICE will be all but dead.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on August 24, 2023, 06:02:07 PM
This means you'll still be able to fill up your ICE car but a guy in the trade reckons that by 2040 the ICE will be all but dead.

Forget the EVs, by  2040 I will be all but dead,
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 24, 2023, 07:11:42 PM
I'd be interested in the 3 point turn and stopping at traffic lights, etc, on test, is brake hold acceptable
I have watched Ashley Neal's YouTube channel and when he teaches on an EV he always has the pupil engage the handbrake, though on one video he did explain the brake hold operation.
I was out with my brother in his BMW 330e and he released the handbrake before driving off. I pointed out to him that he didn't have to as it disengaged as he drove off. He didn't realise, as this was his first car with an electric handbrake. And yes, that is how new drivers are taught to move off.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Neil Ives on August 24, 2023, 07:22:52 PM
Forget the EVs, by  2040 I will be all but dead,
I'll be 90 if I'm still alive.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on August 25, 2023, 04:32:40 AM
Same here, touching 90 early 2040's, but my current plan will see me without a car before my current 5 year package expires in Sep 2026.

I'm currently only doing around 20 miles a month, if that, but holding onto it for when I find a house, to move goods and shackles and a few DIY runs.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on August 25, 2023, 12:17:52 PM
I am increasingly coming round to the view that my current Jazz will be my last car as well. Nearly 2 years and still only just under 4,000 miles on the clock. It will see me out whichever comes first - death or incapability to drive.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on August 25, 2023, 12:35:02 PM
Forget the EVs, by  2040 I will be all but dead,
I'll be 90 if I'm still alive.

93 here,
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Neil Ives on August 25, 2023, 01:03:05 PM
I'm still averaging 10k miles annually.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on August 25, 2023, 01:11:54 PM
It will be interesting to see insurance quotes posted here as EV's become more prevalent.

I'm sure we all realise that our quotes are rising because EV's are dangerous boxes when hit and we are all suffering from their quarantine and expert repair needs
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on August 25, 2023, 02:07:09 PM
Something relevant https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p0fzlswg/what-they-really-mean-for-you-series-1-1-electric-cars
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on August 25, 2023, 02:32:11 PM
I'm still averaging 10k miles annually.

That's a lot if you are retired. That said everybody is different. Not that long after retirement we downsized to a bungalow and also moved back to the Warrington area where both our daughters and grandkids live. If we'd stayed put I think I might have been pushing 6,000 to 7,000 as opposed to 2,000. Also I have decent public transport options now.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Neil Ives on August 25, 2023, 03:00:27 PM
I'm still averaging 10k miles annually.
That's a lot if you are retired
Family are spread over the UK.
Also, my wife and I like to explore new areas. We just love pottering along country lanes and in the Hybrid Jazz my progress is almost silent.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on September 01, 2023, 12:07:48 PM
Just asking :
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on September 05, 2023, 07:00:22 AM
https://www.wnd.com/2023/09/evs-just-biggest-scam-modern-times/
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 05, 2023, 01:58:32 PM
The world is full of naysayers.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Westy36 on September 05, 2023, 01:59:16 PM
According to new data released by CAP Hpi, some people are suffering some major depreciation on their EV's.

Source: Cap HPI, August 2023 - Depreciation over the last 11 months!

    Seat Mii – down 50.3%
    Renault Zoe – down 44.2%
    Nissan Leaf – down 42.7%
    Volkswagen Up electric – down 42.5%
    Hyundai Ioniq electric – down 40.8%
    BMW i3 – down 39.9%
    Mazda MX-30 – down 39%
    Vauxhall Corsa electric – down 37.7%
    Hyundai Kona electric – down 37.6%
    Peugeot e-208 – down 37.1%
    Volkswagen ID.3 – down 36.3%
    Peugeot e-2008 – down 35.9%
    Citroen e-C4 – down 35.9%
    MG5 Electric – down 35.7%
    Fiat 500e – down 35.5%
    Vauxhall Mokka electric – down -35%
    Kia e-Niro – down 35%
    Jaguar I-Pace – down 34.4%
    Polestar 2 – down 34.3%
    Mini electric – down 33.9%

In £ terms, the figures are eye watering.

    Audi e-tron GT -£27,629
    Mercedes EQC -£20,275
    Audi e-tron Sportback -£18,929
    Jaguar I-Pace -£18,470
    Audi Q4 e-tron £17,363
    Tesla Model Y -£17,300
    Mercedes EQE -£17,175
    Audi e-tron -£16,158
    Mercedes EQS -£15,888
    Tesla Model 3 -£15,538
    Mercedes EQA -£14,808
    Volkswagen ID.3 -£13,328
    Ford Mustang Mach-E -£13,308
    BMW i3 -£12,739
    Volkswagen ID.4 -£12,053
    BMW iX3 -£11,600
    Kia e-Niro -£11,588
    Volvo XC40 electric -£11,550
    Hyundai Kona electric -£11,388
    Audi Q4 e-tron Sportback -£11,010

Ouch. Safe to say the bubble has well and truely burst. My wee Jazz is worth more than I paid for it 3yrs and 40k+ miles later. Lovely stuff.  8)

https://cardealermagazine.co.uk/publish/worst-offenders-which-used-electric-car-prices-have-crashed/289145

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on September 05, 2023, 03:44:37 PM
Similar story :

https://principia-scientific.com/do-we-have-a-major-problem-with-ev-depreciation-case-studies/
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 05, 2023, 05:46:33 PM
The problem with these figures is the % numbers use one set of cars and the £ another. There are only a couple of cars on both lists. To me that shows an agenda at play.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 05, 2023, 05:52:32 PM
Depreciation sites state that the Jazz loses 50% of its value in 3 years. We know it doesn't. So how accurate are the rest of their figures?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jazzik on September 05, 2023, 08:29:47 PM
Whatever the depreciation may be:

In August, 27,825 new passenger cars were registered in the Netherlands. How many of them had an electric powertrain? And how much a gasoline engine? And which EV registered the most units? AutoWeek dived into the numbers.

Of the nearly 28,000 new passenger cars that were registered in our country in August, 9,174 had a fully electric powertrain. This means that one third of all newly registered passenger cars in that month were EVs. This means that after cars with a hybrid powertrain, electric cars account for the most registrations. In August, 10,316 hybrid cars were registered, accounting for a share of 37 percent in the registration figures.


Source: https://www.autoweek.nl/autonieuws/artikel/een-derde-van-nieuwe-personenautos-is-elektrisch/
For the rest of the article: Google Translate is your friend (https://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/smilie/boese/g015.gif)

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on September 06, 2023, 02:46:54 PM
Depreciation vs common sense.

If you are buying an electric vehicle, with a view to helping reduce vehicular impact on the environment, you are missing something if you are considering replacing it at one year old!

Having said that, I notice that Jazz owners particularly seem keen in replacing their cars between 12 and 24 months!

My Jazz was registered in 2005 and my RAV4 in 2016.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 06, 2023, 04:44:33 PM
Depreciation is something I never worry about. I buy a car and run it till it dies. So every car I have ever bought has lost almost its total purchase price during my ownership.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on September 07, 2023, 12:45:35 PM
Depreciation vs common sense.

If you are buying an electric vehicle, with a view to helping reduce vehicular impact on the environment, you are missing something if you are considering replacing it at one year old!

Having said that, I notice that Jazz owners particularly seem keen in replacing their cars between 12 and 24 months!

My Jazz was registered in 2005 and my RAV4 in 2016.

I've been guilty of changing my cars too often although, this current one apart, the majority have been used. For a longish period at work I got paid to use my own car for some trips and I used this to fund frequent changes.

Nevertheless my approach was, quite simply, financially illiterate. I'll be clear - I regret doing it. The pleasure in having a new/different car was always quite short lived. The approach adopted by Jocko and Richard is far better both financially and environmentally. I also agree that people who buy new electric cars for environmental reasons are, as Richard says, spectacularly missing the point if they change these vehicles frequently.

Too late I have learned the errors of my ways and I am determined to keep this current vehicle for as long as I remain competent to drive.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on September 07, 2023, 06:39:36 PM
https://www.wnd.com/2023/09/evs-just-biggest-scam-modern-times/
Those are good examples of people not doing their homework before buying an EV. If, for 11 months of the year, an EV is charged at home using cheap electricity and used for daily driving well within the range of the battery under the worst conditions then that benefit might be worth the charging hassle incurred on the occasional longer trips.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Westy36 on September 07, 2023, 09:14:08 PM
Read this today re Stellantis and electric vans. Such good news for the Ellesmere Port area, and a sign of Stellantis commiting to both the UK and Vauxhall.

https://www.smmt.co.uk/2023/09/electric-van-production-begins-at-ellesmere-port/

I do see a lot of DPD electric Nissan vans about. Perfect solution for short range delivery vehicles.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Lord Voltermore on September 08, 2023, 10:04:10 AM
Range is still the main obstacle for me.  Recent trip kent to Northumberland was about 350 miles.  We often drive further than this in a day.  Most EV's would need to make a significant  stop en route for a recharge.  By chance the historic  Inn we stayed at did have an EV charging point for 1 possibly 2 parking spaces.  It had Northumberland tourist board logos on it. 

During dinner  the overnight guests at an adjoining table were asked to move their  car off  the charger.  Mid meal,and having drunk some alcohol.    Inconvenient for him. the staff, and whoever needed the charger  . 

But one day.....
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 08, 2023, 01:15:24 PM
During dinner  the overnight guests at an adjoining table were asked to move their  car off  the charger.  Mid meal,and having drunk some alcohol.
Anyone who leaves their car on a charger and then has a drink is a numpty.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 08, 2023, 01:17:17 PM
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on September 09, 2023, 03:36:07 PM
According to new data released by CAP Hpi, some people are suffering some major depreciation on their EV's.
The lesson is that if you want an EV then look for a recent 2nd hand one.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 10, 2023, 06:47:15 PM
Watched this the other day. I had recorded it and never got around to watching it but it is on i-Player.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p0fzlswg/what-they-really-mean-for-you-series-1-1-electric-cars
A very balanced view in my opinion. A nice bit about a Hyundai fuel cell car. 4 minutes to fill up with H2, a 380-mile range and approximately the same cost as petrol to fill up. There was also a brilliant idea from Trojan Energy where customers in their connected areas have a "Lance" that just plugs into a socket in the pavement, like a fire hydrant-type set-up.


Another thing they quoted on the programme was 60% of UK homes have off-street parking!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on September 11, 2023, 06:41:05 AM
60% !

When I see the rows and rows of Victorian style terraces and proliferation of new build tower blocks I'd never have guessed.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on September 11, 2023, 08:04:30 AM
Another thing they quoted on the programme was 60% of UK homes have off-street parking!

Not really believable. Maybe that meant 60% of car owning homes?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 11, 2023, 10:30:48 AM
Maybe that meant 60% of car owning homes?
And is that not near as damm it, 60% of homes?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on September 11, 2023, 04:06:57 PM
Maybe that meant 60% of car owning homes?
And is that not near as damm it, 60% of homes?
I wouldn't say so myself. There's a lot of people/households round where I live that don't have cars. My son lives in London and has no car. Most of the flats in his development don't have them. They built underground parking for maybe 40% of the flats, and even that is hardly used. Obviously in more rural areas, that number will go up. But in terms of housing near me, I would say way more than 60% of households do not have off street parking.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on September 11, 2023, 05:27:42 PM
Not sure what the exact figures are for homes without off street parking but it's a substantial number - 35% seems to ring a bell.

In the early days of EVs, advocates used to say "most people charge at home." It was probably true but was also meaningless - it just meant most early adopters had off street parking.

Having said all that, I sense a sea change in adoption of EVs. Teslas are, quite literally, 10 a penny where I live which is just a run of the mill area in North West England. All sorts of other EVs being bought as well. I understand one in five new cars sold is now a pure EV and hybrids are even more popular.

Given you will still be able to run an ICE for the foreseeable future I think the transition will be less problematic than naysayers think.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 12, 2023, 10:03:00 AM
Teslas around here are more numerous than Jazz models. One regularly parks outside my door. The owner obviously doesn't charge at home. My brother has just bought a PHEV with a view to going EV with his next car. His experience of driving the PHEV in EV mode has made him perfectly happy to make the change. He says if he knew before buying it a couple of months back what he knows now then he would have made the move to full EV then. He does have charging at home but doesn't as yet have a dedicated tariff arranged and he still is saving a lot on fuel.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on September 12, 2023, 10:53:15 AM
Maybe that meant 60% of car owning homes?
And is that not near as damm it, 60% of homes?
I wouldn't say so myself. There's a lot of people/households round where I live that don't have cars. My son lives in London and has no car. Most of the flats in his development don't have them. They built underground parking for maybe 40% of the flats, and even that is hardly used. Obviously in more rural areas, that number will go up. But in terms of housing near me, I would say way more than 60% of households do not have off street parking.

Household car access
The proportion of households with one car was 45% in 2021, however, the long-term trend has remained broadly constant since 1971 with an average of 43%. The proportion of households without a car has fallen from 48% in 1971 (based on the Census) to 22% in 2021.31 Aug 2022

AND
https://www.field-dynamics.co.uk/25-drivers-no-off-street-parking/

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on September 12, 2023, 02:46:41 PM
Teslas around here are more numerous than Jazz models. One regularly parks outside my door. The owner obviously doesn't charge at home. My brother has just bought a PHEV with a view to going EV with his next car. His experience of driving the PHEV in EV mode has made him perfectly happy to make the change. He says if he knew before buying it a couple of months back what he knows now then he would have made the move to full EV then. He does have charging at home but doesn't as yet have a dedicated tariff arranged and he still is saving a lot on fuel.

Just booked my car in for it's 2 year service. It will have done just over 4,000 miles or about 5.5 miles per day. I then looked at the longer journeys I have done in those 2 years. 2 stand out - a trip to Dumfries and Galloway from Warrington for a 4 day break - did about 500 miles in total. A few weeks ago I did a return trip to Rhos on Sea in North Wales - 120 miles.

In short there were 5 days out of 730 when I did anything other than a trifling distance. A knackered Nissan Leaf would have sufficed for 725 days out of the 730 and I wouldn't have even needed a charge point. An outdoor socket and a "granny" cable would have done me.

I paid about £21,000 for the Jazz (give or take). I could have bought my mates old Nissan Leaf which he got £5,000 for when he traded it in against a newer Kia Niro EV. That would have left me £16,000 for hire cars!

I do love the Jazz though.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on September 12, 2023, 04:44:06 PM
Same here, 3,700 miles from Sep 21

Most of that was London to Reading and back each fortnight, that I no longer do now I'm in Reading.

I need to have my speedo recalibrated from MPH to MPM miles per month
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on September 12, 2023, 05:03:31 PM
Wow - almost exactly the same driving profile as me. Having said that, I think quite a lot of people fall into that very low mileage bracket when they retire. A lot depends on how close immediate family are. In my case, both daughters live in the same area. My oldest is 2 miles away and my youngest 1 mile. We pootle to the garden centre (6 miles return) and our favourite National Trust property is a massive 7 miles away!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 12, 2023, 08:02:07 PM
I reset my trip every time I take the car out and in the last 6 weeks, it has never recorded double figures. However, I had better check my tyre pressures and fluid levels because on Friday I have a return journey of 11.8 miles!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kenneve on September 12, 2023, 09:08:28 PM
Looks like I’m the other end of the spectrum, took early retirement 25 years ago ( now 86) and have been driving Jazz cars since about 2012, annual mileage is still circa 9000miles
My current Advance,  (Jazz No7) delivered 13th July is showing 1603miles today, which averages about 25 miles per DAY!!
I’m afraid, if for some reason I had to give up driving, then you might as well shoot me :o :o
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on September 13, 2023, 07:09:10 AM
Now in Reading I'm currently house hunting.

So far, nothing suitable, all that comes on the market is very old, surrounded by large established trees completely overhanging most of the garden, has been left unloved, etc.

Last 2 I viewed, according to estate agents, are 'very well presented' but I beg to differ. Long cracks in ceiling and wall plasterboard not dealt with, laminate floors damaged, shoddy painting with paint all over electric plastics,
One before last had replaced skirting boards but they didn't sit flush and there were gaps in the joins, spider heaven as the daughter said. Poor DIY.

Yes it can all be sorted but something half decent or price reduced to reflect the damage would be nice.

I am semi restricted as I want to be within a mile from the daughter as I'm getting no younger.

Once I am moved and the car has delivered all my goods from storage and the DIY stores the car will go, won't need it.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on September 13, 2023, 11:21:33 AM
I reset my trip every time I take the car out and in the last 6 weeks, it has never recorded double figures. However, I had better check my tyre pressures and fluid levels because on Friday I have a return journey of 11.8 miles!

It's a biggie. Not only check the levels but pack emergency supplies as well - water, snacks etc :)

Talking about mileage, mine would be even less but I often go the long way round to the supermarket (8 miles return as opposed to 3) to give the car a bit of a run plus I still enjoy a drive.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on September 13, 2023, 11:28:58 AM
Kremmen

Know what you mean about houses with stuff that needs doing. Old couple moved out of a semi opposite us early last year. The new owner is, quite literally, gutting it - it's the most extreme makeover I've seen in the flesh. All the wiring has been replaced, all plaster stripped off, interior doors, skirting boards, old kitchen which was in an extension has been demolished and a new one installed in a completely rebuilt extension. Spoken to the guy who is downsizing into it and he said he wants to do everything before he gets too old to put up with the disruption. Must be costing serious money. You can see his point though.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on September 13, 2023, 12:07:21 PM
That's what I'm hoping to do. My neighbour where I am now does good quality full house refurbishments

He reckons he could turn almost anything into a blank canvas 'palace' for between £40k to £50k

That's a full gut and rebuild.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 13, 2023, 12:36:18 PM
Talking about mileage, mine would be even less but I often go the long way round to the supermarket (8 miles return as opposed to 3) to give the car a bit of a run plus I still enjoy a drive.
I am the same. Any excuse to get behind the wheel and the long way rather than the short way. My wife doesn't understand when I am happy to go to a store further out of town. But she doesn't drive.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on September 13, 2023, 04:43:13 PM
Here's an alternative approach...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/reel/playlist/click?vpid=p0gcbkjx
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 13, 2023, 06:54:22 PM
Interesting. Mind you, I know how long it took to lay the rails for Edinburgh's trams!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on September 14, 2023, 05:42:12 AM
Today's papers are saying the Chinese are heavily subsidising EV production and the EU are to investigate this apparently illegal business practice.

France seem the most worried.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on September 14, 2023, 07:15:25 AM
Interesting. Mind you, I know how long it took to lay the rails for Edinburgh's trams!

I thought you might say that. I worked in Edinburgh a lot during that time. Seemingly endless chaos.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Lord Voltermore on September 14, 2023, 08:13:12 AM
The latest TV advert for a Renault full Hybrid  brags about its range of up to 680 miles ( or  thereabouts) 
Yes - thats because its the range from a tank full of petrol!     A bit deceptive IMO  to  obscure the difference between hybrid and EV in this way . The advert also promotes its monthly leasing cost.     This may be the way the business market is heading. 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 14, 2023, 11:58:13 AM
Today's papers are saying the Chinese are heavily subsidising EV production and the EU are to investigate this apparently illegal business practice.

France seem the most worried.
EU motor manufacturers are sh***ing themselves. Subsidising goods exported from a country is not illegal. If the importer deems it unfair they can slap on a tariff to try and balance things. Of course, the exporting country can retaliate by adding a tariff to goods the other party sell to them. It is what China and the US are doing to each other at the moment.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on September 14, 2023, 12:43:41 PM
Auto express


European car makers facing cut-price competition from Chinese rivals have helped persuade the EU to begin a trade investigation that could see consumers paying higher prices for EVs.

Brussels believes cut-price Chinese electric vehicles are distorting the EU market, and endangering the current market leadership of its home-grown car makers. The investigation has been called for by states including France, where domestic car makers believe they are facing competition that’s unfair.

The probe was announced in a speech today by European Commission president Ursula von der Leyen. She stated that the electric car sector is a huge potential market for Europe’s car makers, but “global markets are now flooded with cheaper Chinese electric cars” and that their costs are being kept artificially low by “huge state subsidies”. If the inquiry proves that is indeed the case, World Trade Organisation rules allow for the imposition of significant tariffs that could make buying Chinese cars much more expensive for consumers.

Perhaps unexpectedly, the European Commission probe is not universally welcomed, with some reports pointing to comments made by German chancellor Olaf Scholz last week where he said “competition should spur us on, not scare us”. He appeared to dismiss the issue of the Chinese ‘dumping’ cars in Europe specifically, saying: “In the 80s, people said that Japanese cars were overrunning all other markets. Twenty years later, it was cars made in Korea. Today, it’s supposed to be Chinese electric cars.”

The German car industry seems less inclined to start a trade war with China too, with comments from their trade body the VDA suggesting EU policy-makers should focus more on getting the domestic framework right for the EV transition, and to take into account China’s possible ‘counter-reactions’ to the imposition of tariffs on its products. Many European car makers also have close links to China with manufacturing bases located there and joint ventures with Chinese domestic brands.

Here in the UK, the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders has responded in less-than-enthusiastic fashion, too. “We will monitor the situation and carefully assess the potential for any impact on the UK,” says Mike Hawes, chief executive. “However, the industry is committed to free and fair global trade and has been successful on that basis. The immediate priority is our own competitiveness – both manufacturing and market – and the development and implementation of a strategy to enhance the UK offering.”
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on September 14, 2023, 12:53:25 PM
VW and BMW have manufacturing plants in China .. and a lot to lose via tariffs.

The EU - and the US and the  UK - are about 8 years behind the Chinese: the cheapest Chinese EV is under £10k .

Long term strategies - well thought out - in technology  - work.  See Apple's Iphone. And Tesla.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 14, 2023, 01:47:36 PM
King Canute springs to mind.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on September 16, 2023, 01:54:03 PM
There's a relevant article at https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-66820791 . It mentions that soon those manufacturers who aren't selling enough EVs in the UK will need to buy credits from those who are, so the Chinese EV manufacturers will get an extra source of income.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 16, 2023, 02:30:17 PM
They keep talking about the UK car industry. What UK car industry? Mini? BMW and Germany. Vauxhall? Stellantis, an American/Italian conglomerate. Landrover? Mainly Tata Motors and India. Rolls Royce? Volkswagen and Germany. Bentley? Same as Rolls Royce. MG/Rover? China. We sold our car industry years back when the moneymen figured banking and insurance were a better bet.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Westy36 on September 16, 2023, 08:21:57 PM
What UK car industry? 
All sold off, together with everything else we owned, by a certain Grantham born lady many years ago. It's all in foreign ownership now, and the profits go overseas. Well done that lady, sterling work.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on October 04, 2023, 03:50:44 PM
Still fancy a MG EV ?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67005620
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinS on October 04, 2023, 05:42:06 PM
Still fancy a MG EV ?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67005620

Made in China!  No thanks.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on October 04, 2023, 08:06:21 PM
Still fancy a MG EV ?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67005620
This incident highlights a major omission from all vehicles without a mechanical key. They need a physical "kill switch".
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Westy36 on October 04, 2023, 10:17:36 PM
Blimey, what a horrible thing to happen to Mr Morrison. I'm surprised the poor bloke didn't have a heart attack. He had "no control over the speed and you're completely stuck inside, it's terrifying." "The car was just running away on its own, there was nothing I could do,"  :o

So, lets invisage that happening near a school at kick out time....?? Not being able to stop a weightly EV? Frankly terrifying. Busy high st on a Saturday....etc etc etc

VOSA need to be on this tomorrow. MG need to get a full recall done tomorrow. GOV uk need to be on this tomorrow. Who is this months Transport Minister?  Scary stuff.

Chinese electronics are in most new cars. I reckon our roads will become much more dangerous in the future. Bring back basic ICE motors.

Was the MK2 Jazz peak car in term of simplicity and safety? Perhaps the MK3?

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on October 04, 2023, 10:29:04 PM
Still fancy a MG EV ?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67005620

Made in China!  No thanks.
SO are UK Teslas.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on October 05, 2023, 06:06:53 AM
First thing I thought of was that post about a remote kill switch to disable all EV's

What if this is the same in reverse, let's just disable all controls at whatever speed they are travelling at
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on October 05, 2023, 08:38:09 AM
Still fancy a MG EV ?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67005620

Made in China!  No thanks.

If you’re going to boycott stuff made in China, you’re not going to have much left you can buy.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinS on October 05, 2023, 09:41:49 AM
Still fancy a MG EV ?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67005620

Made in China!  No thanks.

If you’re going to boycott stuff made in China, you’re not going to have much left you can buy.

That is very true and unescapable because the electronics in most cars (and many other devices) have a Chinese element in them.  But if I have the choice I will always buy from elsewhere.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on October 21, 2023, 05:22:58 AM
Quote
Electric cars risk becoming effectively uninsurable as analysts struggle to put a price on battery repairs, the researcher for the car insurance industry has said.

Jonathan Hewett, chief executive of Thatcham Research, the motor insurers’ automotive research centre, said a lack of “insight and understanding” about the cost of repairing damaged electric car batteries was pushing up premiums and resulting in some providers declining to provide cover altogether.

Electric cars can be particularly expensive to repair, costing around a quarter more to fix on average than a petrol or diesel vehicle. Experts have previously warned electric vehicles are being written off after minor bumps because of the cost and complexity of fixing their batteries.

Mr Hewett said: “The challenge is that we have no way of understanding whether the battery has been compromised or damaged in any way.

“The threat of thermal runaway means that a catastrophic fire can take place if the cells of the battery have been damaged in a collision.

“What we’re struggling to understand at the moment is how we approach that diagnostic technique.

“It’s like a doctor trying to understand what’s wrong with you without any notes or an X-ray.”

This EV insurance price hike seems to have only kicked in in the last few months. There's going to be some unhappy EV and PHEV owners come their next insurance renewal
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Westy36 on October 21, 2023, 11:56:49 AM
Tesla were selling the model 3 at the start of 2023 for £50k. They're now £39k. 20% off list in under a year? When is the last time a manufacturer did that? Wouldn't fill me with confidence if considering and EV.

https://cardealermagazine.co.uk/publish/tesla-again-slashes-prices-of-model-3/291512
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on October 24, 2023, 05:43:09 AM
Not sure if this has been posted already :

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/yourmoney/electric-vehicles/article-12662175/Toyota-EV-solid-state-range-745-miles.html
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: olduser1 on October 24, 2023, 09:43:33 AM
Still fancy a MG EV ?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67005620

Made in China!  No thanks.

If you’re going to boycott stuff made in China, you’re not going to have much left you can buy.
Yes but you would be surprised at availability of quality products from UK. I avoid all C* made items - poor copies and no service .Don't join the drive to the bottom of the swamp buying the cheapest
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jazzik on October 30, 2023, 11:44:48 PM
Will this be our next (and probably last) new car in some 3, 4 years? https://www.byd.com/uk/car/dolphin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rik6rDkx5Hg

I really like the Dolphin!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on October 31, 2023, 04:14:36 AM
Never heard of them, must be Chinese
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 31, 2023, 12:58:44 PM
The revolving infotainment screen is pretty cool.

I liked the presenters orange trousers.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jazzik on October 31, 2023, 01:23:40 PM
Never heard of them, must be Chinese

Now you HAVE heard of them ;)... and what do you think?

Yes... Chinese.
Like my German Braun shaver and Japanese Panasonic beard trimmer: Made in China... Our Japanese Sony TV: guess what... ;D
By the way: "American" Tesla has started to purchase Chinese BYD's blade batteries which should be a vote of confidence...
Go through your home, check all kinds of devices (including your Swedish CTEK charger, yes, that one too, like Swedish Volvos...). Read the fine print and where you read Made in China or Assembled in China: Throw it out!
I'm afraid there won't be much left at home... :(
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinS on October 31, 2023, 01:35:28 PM
Never heard of them, must be Chinese

Now you HAVE heard of them ;)... and what do you think?

Yes... Chinese.
Like my German Braun shaver and Japanese Panasonic beard trimmer: Made in China... Our Japanese Sony TV: guess what... ;D
Go through your home, check all kinds of devices (including your Swedish CTEK charger, yes, that one too, like Swedish Volvos...). Read the fine print and where you read Made in China or Assembled in China: Throw it out!
I'm afraid there won't be much left at home... :(

Yes, what a sad and sorry state our greed has led the world to become.  My next car will likely be a Renault Austral, but even that is built in Spain.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jazzik on October 31, 2023, 02:49:26 PM
I think the word is "globalization", although... in the case of the Renault Austral it is better to use "neighbourhood help". ;D
By the way, that Renault is much more expensive and larger than a fully electric Dolphin. More space in the boot but (much) less space for rear seat passengers. And then you have a 3-cylinder turbo hybrid... ???
I think in about 3 or 4 years I won't even think about an ICE anymore...
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 31, 2023, 05:09:17 PM
I think the word is "globalization", although... in the case of the Renault Austral it is better to use "neighbourhood help". ;D
By the way, that Renault is much more expensive and larger than a fully electric Dolphin. More space in the boot but (much) less space for rear seat passengers. And then you have a 3-cylinder turbo hybrid... ???
I think in about 3 or 4 years I won't even think about an ICE anymore...

I think that is definitely the way things are going. I have been astonished at the increase in EVs in our neighbourhood and a significant numbers of other vehicles are hybrids. Teslas are so so common where I live which is not a particularly affluent area. I was chatting to a chap near to where we live the other day who had a new Hyundai Ionic EV in his drive. He loves it even though he told me he didn't believe in all "the net zero crap" as he called it. He just felt it was the way things were going - he needed a new car so went EV. Does about 120 miles a week so only charges up every 10 days or so. Not only that, we had our first courier delivery in an Electric van yesterday.

Yes problems remain and, in the UK, the public charging network is worse now than ever because new EV take up is outpacing the roll out of public chargers.

For me, anyway, the game is up. Yes you'll technically be able to buy a new ICE until 2035 but you might find them pretty hard to come by. The car industry has woken up, smelled the coffee and moved on. They didn't want the delay until 2035 - they are heavily invested in EVs.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on November 01, 2023, 11:24:14 AM
Great buying a new EV if you have spare money.
If living in a house rewired with modern electrics but before roughly 1985-90, then a home charging point probably means a new control box with a a main fuse upgrade  to 100Amps and some/lots of wiring.

So no change form £1,000 plus. Before you buy /lease the car.

Buying any new car to do less than 5k miles per year is unbelievable extravagance /planet despoiling to a mean Scot like me. :o Buying an EV - with its extra costs is even worse. :o :o
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 01, 2023, 12:49:14 PM


Buying any new car to do less than 5k miles per year is unbelievable extravagance /planet despoiling to a mean Scot like me. :o Buying an EV - with its extra costs is even worse. :o :o

I did buy a new car and I do less than 5,000 miles a year. I can, however, see where you are coming from on this in that I could buy a lot of taxi fares with the money I have laid out to by my current car. If I had a rational head on when making these purchase decisions, then a 5 year old Jazz (or similar) is all I really need and such a car would do me for 5 years or more.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on November 01, 2023, 01:08:29 PM
For decades I've bought a new car every 3 years

Then when I retired and not doing the mileage I hung onto my 2013 9G Civic. The main reason was because the 2016 Civic was being posted as having a disaster of a headunit that kept crashing and resetting all to factory when it randomly rebooted. Honda eventually fixed it but by that time the 10G Civic was out and it was too big for my needs

I looked at the MK3 Jazz but the 1.3 CVT did nothing for me so I hung onto the Civic

Then the MK4 Jazz came along and with my Civic approaching 10 years it was time to p/x

This will be my last car and I expect to sell it before the 5 years is up
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jazzik on November 01, 2023, 08:34:22 PM
Buying any new car to do less than 5k miles per year is unbelievable extravagance /planet despoiling to a mean Scot like me. :o Buying an EV - with its extra costs is even worse. :o :o

We drive just over 5k miles per year, about 10k km, 6250 miles on average.
At first glance I would say you are right, but: we sold our previous car, a Yaris Hybrid, after 4 years. That does not mean that it has ended up on the scrap heap, but that car will continue its life with a new owner and perhaps make a few more owners happy. Until it is the end of its life.
It is entirely possible that things will be more or less the same with the Jazz.
We are very aware that we normally have a higher depreciation per year than if we continued to drive the same car for a longer period of time.
Although... when I see how much we got for our 4 year old Yaris...(https://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/smilie/konfus/k040.gif)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Marco1979 on November 02, 2023, 05:43:05 AM
I also think EV’s are not that great because of this:
You can put an 80 kWh battery in an SUV type car. That would save maybe 10 liters of fuel per 100 km, but it would need additional electric energy. You could instead divide it into 100 Jazz type 0.8 kWh batteries and save about 1 to 1,5 liters of fuel every 100 km per car without additional electric power involved. So would you prefer to spare 10 or 150 liters, considering that earth’s rare metals are only available in a limited way?
By buying a hybrid, more resources are there to use by others  :)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jazzik on November 02, 2023, 09:29:02 AM
...considering that earth’s rare metals are only available in a limited way?
By buying a hybrid, more resources are there to use by others  :)

The example I used, the BYD Dolphin (and other BYD models) use(s) LFP (lithium-iron-phosphate) batteries, scrapping NCM (nickel, cobalt, manganese) technology from its model line-up entirely.
Tesla is now starting to use the same BYD batteries....
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on November 02, 2023, 10:33:31 AM
Just watch EV insurance costs .. rocket trajectory.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Lincolnshire Rambler on November 02, 2023, 06:41:19 PM
Before we can look at millions of EVs in the UK we need enough generating capacity to deliver that power requirement . The new nuclear builds are going to be a decade away from producing . Wind growth has stalled at the moment with a postponed new offshore  development costing more to operate and build than the revenue income provides . Siemens making European wind turbines has lost €5 billion + in doing so and lots of developing failures in service .National grid needs expanding to be able to transmit efficiently. So building the actual chargers is a minor detail in tbe scheme of things . Our base load generation is from gas and it will take a few decades to replace by wind never mind how you store electricity when the wind doesn’t or at night when solar doesn’t . Drax power emits more CO2 per MW of power  burning wood pellets than does ratcliffe power station using coal .. already some energy networks are telling councils not to insist on putting an EV charger in every new build as they can’t provide the power to new estates of several hundreds of homes . Oh yes and that’s not considering millions of electric heat pumps instead of fuel boilers in current and new build homes .
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on November 02, 2023, 10:36:40 PM
Before we can look at millions of EVs in the UK we need enough generating capacity to deliver that power requirement . The new nuclear builds are going to be a decade away from producing . Wind growth has stalled at the moment with a postponed new offshore  development costing more to operate and build than the revenue income provides.
A fleet of small modular reactors near demand centres would make a big difference by producing power close to the consumers and there's potential to use waste heat for district heating schemes. The NIMBYs, however, will fight such proposals.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Westy36 on November 02, 2023, 11:08:24 PM
A fleet of small modular reactors near demand centres would make a big difference
Nuclear is without question the wrong solution to the issue. The costs involved at the end of a plants life are astronomical. Factor in the waste issue? Not an option at all. And this is where EV's struggle with their environmental credentials. 

The future should be we all drive very small 1.0 ice vehicles at 80mpg. No 2 ton SUV, no stupid performance cars. Just small cars at minimal eco impact and max MPG. EV are just smoke and mirrors to sell huge motors under the pretence of being eco. Utter tosh. Meet needs not wants.

Now, an EV that weighs 1000 kg, seats 4, 500 mile range and costs £20k. That's what both the people and planet actualy needs. The rest is just consumerism and stupid vanity, not serious environmental concern.

In the current Auto Express, they are reviewing an EV Mini at £35k!! Come on, smell the coffee. What utter goon is going to buy one of those. PCP over 3 yrs they quote as north of £20k. EV's are just a way to squeeze the very last out of the cash cow that is the cash strapped motorist.

Yeah, I'll stick to my mk2 Jazz thanks. 40k and 3 yrs later and I can sell it for more than I paid for it. Never missed a beat, 50+mpg etc etc. Not flash, not impressing my neighbours. But must be 1000% better for the planet than a brand new 2 ton EV.

 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on November 03, 2023, 10:05:18 PM
There's an easy way to reduce the energy consumption by vehicles: Lower the speed limits. It's been done before http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/december/15/newsid_2559000/2559807.stm. Both ICE and EV will benefit.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: RichardA on November 05, 2023, 11:28:44 AM
Great buying a new EV if you have spare money.
If living in a house rewired with modern electrics but before roughly 1985-90, then a home charging point probably means a new control box with a a main fuse upgrade  to 100Amps and some/lots of wiring.

If I remember correctly, the new build house my parents purchased in 1991 had a more sophisticated consumer panel than the previous house (built in 1982). The new build house they purchased in 1996 had one where individual zones (downstairs lights, downstairs socktes, etc) could be isolated.

(Sorry I don't know exact technical terms).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on November 05, 2023, 12:36:09 PM
Yes, separate up and down power socket zones is the norm now, along with surge protection MCB as well

Separate lighting zones has been the norm for many decades to help stop total blackout
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: NoelM on November 05, 2023, 03:18:57 PM
Yes, separate up and down power socket zones is the norm now, along with surge protection MCB


It’s an SPD not MCB
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on November 05, 2023, 04:17:35 PM
Yes, separate up and down power socket zones is the norm now, along with surge protection MCB as well

Separate lighting zones has been the norm for many decades to help stop total blackout
Our 1820s house was rewired by prior owners in 1975 -78.
The consumer unite has separate power and lighting zones for upstairs/downstairs and surge protection MCB as well, The Granny Flat extension built in 2079 has a a separate Consumer Unit.

Pity the Main fuse is only 60 watts. It has blown once about 10 years ago; age I assume as there was no fault. Fortunately I had a spare fuse - no longer made.  I bought more unused on Ebay
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on November 05, 2023, 04:40:03 PM
Yes, separate up and down power socket zones is the norm now, along with surge protection MCB


It’s an SPD not MCB

In my consumer unit I have 2 grey SPD's with 'Wylex surge protector' on each. Neither has any switches.

To the right or them is a switched module/RCB with 'Wylex MCB' printed on it and the fitter has put a written label under it with 'Surge Protection MCB'

So my SPD''s are protected by a RCB !

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on November 22, 2023, 06:30:36 AM
How many more affected across the country :

Quote
Nearly 100 on-street charging points for electric vehicles in Portsmouth have been disconnected after safety concerns were raised by Scottish and Southern Electricity Networks (SSEN).   
The concerns relate to how the charging points were installed, using the electricity supply from lamp columns and, following advice from SSEN, Portsmouth City Council decided to disconnect all 98 on-street charging points.

Portsmouth’s on-street charging points have operated since 2019. They use power from lampposts in the same way as charging points across the country. The infrastructure is owned by the installing company who is responsible for liaising with the electricity distribution network operator (DNO), in Portsmouth this is SSEN.

The charging points were installed by ubitricity or Joju, depending on when they were introduced, and between them the companies are responsible for thousands of similar on-street charge points elsewhere in the country.

Following notification from SSEN of their safety concerns, as a precaution the charging points have been turned off while the situation is investigated.

It is not known how long the charge points will be out of action for, the council has instructed both Joju and ubitricity to work with SSEN to resolve the situation as soon as possible. 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on November 22, 2023, 07:22:49 AM
Congrats to Portsmouth for actually trying to be sensible and use the existing infrastructure. Here in Bath the council have spent shedloads of money moving all the lamp columns to the back of the pavement, effectively ensuring they can’t be used for EV charging in the foreseeable future.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on December 03, 2023, 03:23:17 AM
Just in time for Xmas
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on December 03, 2023, 09:28:30 AM
Good job the Lego Munchkin fire service arrived to put out the fire. Hope they remembered you can’t use water!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jazzik on December 03, 2023, 07:55:55 PM
Wouldn't you prefer "the real thing" (ICE) for Christmas?

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSnc0QRHzoJwe1E-mvWb7uwtPAPL7J5tBTWmf-sl6TUxeP3cZBM3N900rs9eyC9rAYlaJw&usqp=CAU)  (https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSL0w40zhI2FrL4RBeR1FDapWNxSiQhIA9gSA&usqp=CAU)(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQZwffLRcoKW-fPYXAAwX4N7Fj1eCe722enACKrTYbCcYm6vZY2IjT6jpOzYgm59tJ4YcE&usqp=CAU)(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT2Fc3zwJiv8PSOtpUHrxMwN2oHpqQMtns7Ig&usqp=CAU)

Lamborghini............................ McLaren..............................Ferrari ............................................Audi

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kenneve on December 03, 2023, 08:41:52 PM
I think we are fairly safe with our hybrid Jazz cars.
Our HV battery is only 0.75Kw as compared with the 30 or 40Kw batteries in the cars shown, so only about 2% of the energy available for possible fire risk. ;D
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on December 05, 2023, 03:15:40 PM
Another EV "thermal incident" https://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/23965287.audi-swindon-gives-update-fire-delta-business-park/ .
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on December 13, 2023, 03:37:06 PM
Tesla forced to recall 2 million cars over autopilot issues by US authorities

Oh dear
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jazzik on December 13, 2023, 05:51:25 PM
(https://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/midi/konfus/a030.gif)The world upside down!

The NHTSA sees an increased risk of accidents when the driver assistance system Autopilot is turned on. According to the supervisor, insufficient care is taken to ensure that drivers themselves continue to pay attention.

So, according to the Americans, the car now has to pay attention to whether the driver is paying attention. (https://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/midi/konfus/c042.gif)
And I, the driver, really thought that I should pay attention to whether the car is paying attention.(https://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/midi/konfus/c046.gif)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Lord Voltermore on December 14, 2023, 10:40:12 AM
There have been cases in America where the driver of a campervan, put it on autopilot then went into the back of the van to make a cup of coffee.  :o You cant fix stupid .   But I am uneasy of systems that allow the driver to doze, or pay attention to other things.   There was a system that monitors your eyes to check they are not closed, or looking away for too long.     Maybe thats obsolete by now  or too expensive. And no doubt some will complain its disturbing their relaxation, entertainment or multitasking. 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jazzik on December 14, 2023, 10:55:50 AM
I think Tesla will change the name. "Autopilot" will be now "You're still the pilot!!!"
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on December 14, 2023, 11:22:38 AM
Not only the US but similar in China :

Quote
Tesla has been forced to issue an urgent software update on almost every car it has sold in China over fears they could accelerate out of drivers’ control and cause road accidents.

Around 1.1m affected cars, all of which were built at Tesla’s Shanghai factory, have a problem which makes speeds unpredictable when drivers are trying to slow down, Chinese regulators said.

An online software update from Tesla will be used to correct the flaw, which China’s State Administration for Market Regulation described as a problem with “the factory default state of the vehicle regenerative braking strategy”.

The issue affects Tesla Model S, Model X and Model Y vehicles built at the Shanghai plant between January 2019 and April this year.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on December 14, 2023, 01:15:57 PM
Individual buyers no longer interested, EV sales now primary businesses
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on December 15, 2023, 12:05:00 PM
Individual buyers no longer interested, EV sales now primary businesses

This fits with what I see in my neighbourhood. The increase in BEVs is nothing short of dramatic. People are voting with their feet away from pure ICE vehicles and car industry has accepted that the future is EV with hybrids being a bridge for many people.

The postponement of the ICE ban (on new cars) back to 2035 will have little impact. It will be increasingly. difficult to actually source a new purely ICE vehicle.

There are still huge problems and we will see ICE cars on the roads for many years yet but they are on a steep downward trajectory.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on December 15, 2023, 08:59:38 PM
Individual buyers no longer interested, EV sales now primary businesses
Tax incentives always excite the bean counters. However, they might get less excited should they discover that employees are sitting in queues at charging stations when they should be on the move to the next job. I recall that a few years back the tax benefit helped sales of PHEVs which never got charged )so no benefit to the environment). They can't do the same with battery-only vehicles.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on December 16, 2023, 04:31:11 AM
I'm seeing a lot of all electric DPD vans

I wonder if they can last all day without a top-up charge. These delivery drivers do quite a few miles.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on December 18, 2023, 05:13:45 PM
I'm seeing a lot of all electric DPD vans

I wonder if they can last all day without a top-up charge. These delivery drivers do quite a few miles.
I would expect that a van based in a larger town or city would do no more than 100 miles per day, and probably less, with a lot of stopping and starting. An ideal EV application. Rural deliveries are another matter.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: CB72 on December 18, 2023, 06:06:56 PM
Honda will introduce 30 new EVs globally by 2030 with a global sales volume of 2 million units
Honda will present the world premiere of its new EV series for global markets as a part of its exhibit at CES 2024, which will be held January 9-12, 2024 in Las Vegas, Nevada, U.S.

https://hondanews.com/en-US/honda-corporate/releases/honda-to-debut-all-new-global-ev-series-at-ces-2024
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 22, 2023, 02:24:02 PM
I would expect that a van based in a larger town or city would do no more than 100 miles per day, and probably less, with a lot of stopping and starting. An ideal EV application. Rural deliveries are another matter.
When I was delivering to garages in Dundee and all around Fife for both Arnold Clark and later TMS I was doing only 100 miles a day.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on December 22, 2023, 03:08:41 PM
Thrilling new film on Netflix called 'Leave the World Behind' has an amusing role for the Tesla in the middle third.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on December 22, 2023, 03:52:06 PM
I'm seeing a lot of all electric DPD vans

I wonder if they can last all day without a top-up charge. These delivery drivers do quite a few miles.
I would expect that a van based in a larger town or city would do no more than 100 miles per day, and probably less, with a lot of stopping and starting. An ideal EV application. Rural deliveries are another matter.

Just about all the big delivery companies round here are now using electric vans (and the self-employed singletons are now using estate cars). I suspect the Clean Air Zone, with it's £9/day charge for diesel vans (private cars are exempt), has something to do with that.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on December 22, 2023, 05:52:04 PM
I'm seeing a lot of all electric DPD vans

I wonder if they can last all day without a top-up charge. These delivery drivers do quite a few miles.
I would expect that a van based in a larger town or city would do no more than 100 miles per day, and probably less, with a lot of stopping and starting. An ideal EV application. Rural deliveries are another matter.

Yes - I agree. Warrington Bus Company has just ordered a new fleet of Electric Buses to a chorus of comments about them going flat but I just did a back of the envelope calculation about their Number 3 service which I occasionally use if alcohol is to be taken. The trip from the depot to the end point is about 3 miles. A 100 mile range bus could do nearly 17 return trips.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on December 23, 2023, 03:47:20 AM
A typical London Bus does far more than 100 miles a day

Taking one route I drove, Uxbridge to Shepherds Bush, 15 miles, 1 hour, single journey

Apart from spreadover buses they were out there from about 06:00 to midnight, changing drivers

The scheduling dept had to be careful that the first buses out weren't the last ones in (05:00 to 01:00) as they may have run out of diesel

Taking off stand time that could be 250 to 270 miles a day
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on December 24, 2023, 12:49:31 PM
Yes - the example I gave was, perhaps, not representative of all bus routes. My understanding is that diesel buses and hybrids will work alongside the pure electric ones for the foreseeable future. Not sure what the range of the new EV buses is.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: CB72 on December 26, 2023, 09:23:00 AM
. Not sure what the range of the new EV buses is.

The range of an electric London bus is  said to be 190miles by the manufacturer BYD.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Lincolnshire Rambler on December 26, 2023, 09:29:04 AM
So is the range around half that in winter and a quarter less is summer or is it a real number unlike the car quoted distances !
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jazzik on December 27, 2023, 11:05:58 PM
Chinese electric automaker BYD is about to outsell Tesla this year.
Here's how it's winning the race against Elon Musk.

https://www.businessinsider.com/china-byd-tesla-electric-car-ev-race-2023-11?IR=T
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on December 28, 2023, 03:18:28 AM
You seem to like this BYD outfit

Presumably it will be your next car
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: CB72 on December 28, 2023, 04:53:44 PM
That's what these companies do, sell em cheap at cost and when they have taken the market, raise the price!!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on December 28, 2023, 08:55:13 PM
That's what these companies do, sell em cheap at cost and when they have taken the market, raise the price!!
They can sell vehicles at cost and still make a good profit by credits to those manufacturers who have failed to meet the required target for proportion of EVs in their total sales (the Zero Emission Vehicle mandate stipulates 22% for 2024 and increasing in subsequent years). I'm baffled why Honda haven't introduced a smaller and more affordable EV sold at cost in order to reduce the cost of buying credits from others or paying the fine (£15k per vehicle short of the target).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on January 11, 2024, 02:49:48 PM
Quote
You really have to laugh !



Hertz to sell 20,000 EVs amid demand for petrol cars.


Car rental giant Hertz plans to sell a third of its US electric vehicle fleet and reinvest in petrol powered cars amid weak demand for battery-powered automotives.

The company began selling 20,000 EVs last month and will continue throughout this year as customers demanded combustion engine vehicles and amid the high costs of repairs.

Hertz expects to take a $245m (£192m) hit in its fourth quarter results from the sales - in a dramatic reversal after announcing plans in 2021 to buy 100,000 Teslas.

The update to shareholders said: “The company expects to reinvest a portion of the proceeds from the sale of EVs into the purchase of internal combustion engine vehicles to meet customer demand.”
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on January 11, 2024, 03:04:50 PM
I am speculating here but a few EV owners I know like to use an ICE car for longer journeys and will hire one for longer holiday trips. Another factor may be occasional drivers who, when they hire, want something familiar and the well publicised difficulties around the public charging network is another issue.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on January 11, 2024, 04:36:53 PM
Hertz's thinking that led them to invest in a fleet of EVs leaves me scratching my head in puzzlement. Very few cars are rented in order to potter around locally. Almost by definition, you rent a car in order to travel a distance. So the customer will very quickly be faced with issues of range and the charging infrastructure, when he/she may not be familiar with how to manage those. And if journeys are stretched out over more days than expected because of poorly-planned recharge stops, he/she will be penalized for late return. So I'd hazard a guess that repeat customers were probably specifying "no EVs please".
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: olduser1 on January 11, 2024, 06:23:48 PM
Most hire car companies are unloading their EV for high insurance, body damage resulting in write-off and extreme depreciation. A lesson for most other drivers.
My friend booked a Fiat 500 for a week in Avingon to be met with brand new Tesla at pick up, he declined this tempting 5m wide computer.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on January 18, 2024, 12:04:51 PM
Quote
Teslas were left abandoned by US drivers after charging stations struggled to cope with the arctic weather sweeping across swaths of the country.

Charging a Tesla should take around 45 minutes, but according to motorists the electric cars have needed to be plugged in for at least two hours amid the icy conditions.

The issue has caused some owners in Chicago to ditch their cars on the roadside after temperatures in the city plummeted to -18C (0F), marking its coldest snap since 1996.

Tow trucks were sent to move the stricken vehicles, while lengthy queues built up at charging stations.

“I’ve been here for over five hours at this point and I still have not gotten to charge my car,” Tesla driver Brandon Welbourne told CBS News Chicago.

Mr Welbourne added he had seen at least 10 of the vehicles, which cost upwards of $38,990 (£30,841) a piece, being towed away after their batteries died.

Fellow owner Tyler Beard told Fox 32 that his car battery had remained on 0 per cent despite trying to charge it for three hours for two days in succession.

“This is crazy. It’s a disaster,” Chalis Mizelle, told the same outlet, before abandoning her car and hitching a ride with a friend.

Tesla manuals provide extensive advice on how to cope with cold weather.

Its mobile app has a setting for defrosting a car, which is also intended to warm each vehicle’s high-voltage battery if necessary.

and .....

Quote
Electric cars lose as much as half of their value after just three years on the road, new figures show, as the rate of depreciation far outstrips conventional equivalents.

Research from Auto Trader said there were “unsustainable levels of depreciation” in the electric car market, with used prices of battery-powered vehicles dropping by 23pc in the last year alone.

The online vehicle marketplace said a motorist buying a £50,000 electric car could expect to lose £24,000 in value over three years, while a similarly priced petrol car could lose £17,000.

The value of used electric cars has dropped dramatically in the last 12 months after Covid-related supply shortages eased and as rising electricity prices hit demand.

This coincided with petrol prices falling to a two-year low.

Auto Trader’s latest report warned that “residual values of electric cars remain unsustainably low”.

It said that the price of used electric cars could come under further pressure this year as thousands of motorists return vehicles acquired on three-year leases and as manufacturers cut the price of new vehicles.

“With over 800,000 new electric cars registered between 2020 and 2023, supply returning to the used car market will only increase in 2024, and if demand does not keep up, electric cars could depreciate even further, undermining both consumer and retailer confidence,” it said.

Manufacturers are now applying record discounts to new electric vehicles in a bid to boost stuttering demand.

Auto Trader said car makers were slashing thousands of pounds off prices, with average discounts of 10.6pc offered in December. This compares to discounts of 4.8pc a year earlier.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on January 18, 2024, 01:25:38 PM
Please credit the sources of your quotes. That helps the savvy reader to check back to see how much credence one should give them.
"It's on the internet" does not necessarily equal "It must be true"!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on January 18, 2024, 01:50:10 PM
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/01/17/teslas-abandoned-us-drivers-extreme-cold-drains-batteries/

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/01/18/used-electric-cars-lose-half-value-after-three-years/

You obviously don't trust me to provide quotes for ease of reading, I'm making it up
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: His_name_is_robertpaulson on January 18, 2024, 02:26:21 PM
Google electric car graveyard china. We have them in the UK as well
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on January 18, 2024, 03:25:06 PM
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/01/17/teslas-abandoned-us-drivers-extreme-cold-drains-batteries/

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/01/18/used-electric-cars-lose-half-value-after-three-years/

You obviously don't trust me to provide quotes for ease of reading, I'm making it up

Thanks. No problem with you pasting the quote, it's just helpful to know where it comes from. Without any citation, someone could have made it up (and sadly some journos are not above doing that). Caveat lector!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on February 05, 2024, 06:41:52 AM
There was a BMW EV advert on GHR radio yesterday

After all the hype and an almost 200 mile range statement ......

..... right at the end they quickly said something like 'The range quoted may not reflect normal driving conditions'

Yeah, right, we all know that

My friends original Jag i-pace, quoted 250 in his brochure is less than 150 in winter
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on February 05, 2024, 09:52:18 AM
There was a BMW EV advert on GHR radio yesterday

After all the hype and an almost 200 mile range statement ......

..... right at the end they quickly said something like 'The range quoted may not reflect normal driving conditions'

Yeah, right, we all know that

My friends original Jag i-pace, quoted 250 in his brochure is less than 150 in winter

"less than 150 in winter"  assuming a normal UK winter.
Zero at -40C is likely.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Lord Voltermore on February 05, 2024, 11:18:56 AM

..... right at the end they quickly said something like 'The range quoted may not reflect normal driving conditions'

Yeah, right, we all know that

But there are still those who are seduced by adverts that show the car being casually plugged in to a very convenient charger in a virtually deserted city,  or on the spacious drive of a stylish house.    Or driving high up in remote   mountain regions in a  car " designed for the city , built for adventure" .  In my experience  even if the remotest  part is within the range of an EV  there is often also many miles  through villages where  even petrol stations are few and far between. I never commence such routes  without a nearly full petrol tank.  Charging points may be non existent, and  even if you found one  the extra  charging time may make driving the route take too long and inadvisable.        Even so EV's will  still  meet the needs of many. 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinS on February 05, 2024, 02:52:43 PM
BMW is ditching EVs and backing hydrogen engines https://www.hydrogenfuelnews.com/hydrogen-vehicles-bmw/8562742/ (https://www.hydrogenfuelnews.com/hydrogen-vehicles-bmw/8562742/)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on February 06, 2024, 12:36:30 PM
BMW is ditching EVs and backing hydrogen engines https://www.hydrogenfuelnews.com/hydrogen-vehicles-bmw/8562742/ (https://www.hydrogenfuelnews.com/hydrogen-vehicles-bmw/8562742/)
Reading the article, the headline is GROSSLY misleading..
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Lord Voltermore on February 07, 2024, 03:53:22 PM
The UK Advertising Standards  Agency have ruled that EV makers  must stop claiming they are carbon neutral and net Zero   in their  adverts        Apparently the UK government also make this claim when its suits them to do so. Will the same standards of clarity and honesty  apply  ::) 

https://www.asa.org.uk/news/updated-environment-guidance-carbon-neutral-and-net-zero-claims-in-advertising.html
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Kremmen on February 07, 2024, 03:55:46 PM
Quite right

Producing various EV components is far from environmentally friendly, including claims of worker exploitation