Clubjazz - Honda Jazz & HR-V Forums
Honda Jazz Forums => Honda Jazz Mk1 2002-2008 => Topic started by: u587162 on November 06, 2020, 10:30:30 PM
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My MOT has failed on my Honda Jazz 56 plate CRV.
Service break efficiency below requirement [1.2.2 (a) (i)]
Parking break efficiency below requirement [1.4.2 (a) (i)]
Headlamp aim projected beam image is obviously incorrect Nearside [4.1.2 (c)]
Headlamp aim projected beam image is obviously incorrect Offside [4.1.2 (c)]
I think the last 2 could be corrected by a polish of the headlight lens as a different MOT test centre kindly rubbed it a little 2 years ago rather than failing it. I have a polisher machine which I bought a few weeks ago for another purpose, would this be good to use, if so, what with any special cleaner?
How much is the first two items likely to cost me to get sorted on this car? I'm based in NW London. product cost and labour that is?
Thanks.
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You can use a buffer on the headlamps, but I prefer to do them by hand. There's a few threads on here with ideas and the products to use.
https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=9706.0
As the parking brake gets a mention, I suspect your problem is with the rear brakes. Below requirement, but no imbalance mentioned probably means that the rear calipers are seizing, this will most likely be rectified by a strip down and a good clean up, and the slider pins lubricating. Probably a new set of brake pads required too. There may be other problems found when the brakes are stripped down, but as discs are not mention on the MOT, hopefully the problems will be sorted by a good fettle of the calipers.
Should be no more than a couple of hours labour and a set of pads (£20 from a motor factor). Labour rates vary, but in NW London, I'm guessing they will be more than the £40 per hour charged by a good independent up here.
Always worth asking the MOT garage for a quote, they will have a good idea of the work required - it can a bit of a guessing game trying to work out what's wrong with the limited information given on the MOT failure.
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You certainly know what you're talking about Paul.
Yes, without me saying so, the MOT guy said it would cost me about £20 to take off the wheel and strip down the rear near side break. He said it could be the calipers as the near side rear break pad is worn down to the minimum whilst the right offside rear still looks relatively new. He also said that the wheel (and I might not be explaining it properly here) break was slightly engaged when on the rollers during the MOT indicating that rear break is being applied whilst driving. He said he would get me a quote.
Interestingly my mechanic said to me exactly a year ago that the callipers on the Jazz are notorious for seizing due to brakes binding and that there was some orange dots on mine.
Will have to get this checked this week. Out of curiosity, could this also be linked to or affect the same wheel speed sensor because my ABS kicks in far too easily when I break or go over a road him (I've talked about that on here before).
Thanks again.
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Out of curiosity, could this also be linked to or affect the same wheel speed sensor because my ABS kicks in far too easily when I break or go over a road him (I've talked about that on here before).
The wheel speed sensors look at the difference in speed between wheels on the same axle so if one rear brake is working and one is not that could be seen as an imbalance and trigger the ABS.
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Yes, without me saying so, the MOT guy said it would cost me about £20 to take off the wheel and strip down the rear near side break. He said it could be the calipers as the near side rear break pad is worn down to the minimum whilst the right offside rear still looks relatively new. He also said that the wheel (and I might not be explaining it properly here) break was slightly engaged when on the rollers during the MOT indicating that rear break is being applied whilst driving. He said he would get me a quote.
Sounds like you definitely have the nearside rear brake binding due to seizing, the other side may or may not need work too. £20 for each side, plus the cost of fitting a set of pads sounds very fair indeed, I would let him get on with it.
These Jazz calipers are indeed prone to seizing, particularly the rear ones. You have to make sure they are absolutely free of rust scale before reassembling, or the new pads stick in the carrier.
Out of curiosity, could this also be linked to or affect the same wheel speed sensor because my ABS kicks in far too easily when I break or go over a road him (I've talked about that on here before).
As Jocko says, a binding brake can definitely trigger the ABS. It can sense the imbalance in wheel speeds when traction is lost on the wheel with the binding brake, especially when going over road humps etc..
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£20 a side? I would let him carry on provided you think he is competent! :)
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So a local garage agreed to replace both callipers as there was an issue with the right side pads/discs/callipers not coming off or something, break disc and pads for £350 cash all in. I saw the parts arrive from Euro Parts.
Kwik Fit and F1 Autos were quoting me anywhere between £500 and £800, with the average about £530 for the same thing.
I have one problem however, the handbrake is now very loose and and the car still rolls when the hard break is up and the automatic gear in neutral. I'll have to take it back. We have accidently driven the car (long before it was repaired) with the hand break up a few miles, garage owner thinks it might have damaged the cable (I informed him of the loose handbrake before I drove off he said he would need to open the centre console around the automatic gear stick.
Any suggestion what is making the car roll when the handbrake is applied?
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I had the rear calipers and pads replaced recently. My independent garage, who are excellent, explained the handbrake would need to be adjusted again after the pads had bedded in. Come back after a few hundred miles, no extra charge. Sure enough it was rubbish at first. Now it's been adjusted it's very good.
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Well, that soon escalated from £20 a side!
I suppose £350 for discs, pads and new calipers isn't too bad, the calipers are not the cheapest from ECP.
The handbrake is not fantastic on the Jazz at the best of times, and as springwood says, the new friction and discs will need to bed in. The handbrake obviously needs adjusting up, I would expect that in with the job, so press for it FOC.
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Honda "Fixed Price Essential Repairs" quote £317 for discs and pads alone. So if you use that price as a baseline, an extra £33 for new calipers is a bargain!
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Honda "Fixed Price Essential Repairs" quote £317 for discs and pads alone. So if you use that price as a baseline, an extra £33 for new calipers is a bargain!
Ah, but they won't be using 'super duper genuine Honda' parts.
Which is a good job really, as the list price for a pair of genuine rear calipers is... are you sitting down... over £900 including VAT
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lol £900 would be just a little lass value than the car.
The independent garage spoke with me this morning and has asked me to bring the car back tomorrow am. He also said he will try adjusting the hand break without charge but he said that the cable might need replacing because it might have weakened after the few times we've driven around with the handbrake up.
He says that it might have worked before the repair work was done because one of the callipers were seized against the brake therefore not making the car roll when parked.
Does all this make sense what he's claiming?
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He says that it might have worked before the repair work was done because one of the callipers were seized against the brake therefore not making the car roll when parked.
Does all this make sense what he's claiming?
It's not beyond the realms of possibility. The handbrake lever will feel 'spongy' with new discs and pads, but should improve once the pads have bedded in. If you're having to pull the lever right up, you're not going to get the full action on the calipers anyway, not until the cable has been adjusted.
What usually stretches the cable when the calipers seize is having to yank the handbrake on all the time, to get it to hold. Hopefully, he will be able to take up the slack in the adjuster.
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My MOT failed the retest. It gave a parking break reading on the rollers of the MOT centre as 115 on left rear wheel and 77 on right rear wheel. Took it back to my mechanic who suggested changing both hand brake cables for new ones and a old carrier (what does that do?) but with a second hand one from a scrap yard unless I wanted to spend silly money. In total £108 inc labour. He tested the rear wheels again on his roller this time and it gave a reading of about 90 on the right first time and after a few more times and the reading went up to about 115. Not
I drove away from the mechanic thinking that I could smell a burning smell but I may need to drive it around a bit more. It also feels when I've released the accelerator the car is decelerating more quickly than I'm used to. When parked on my sloping drive and in neutral with then with hand brake up, the car is does roll a little. It doesn't offer too much resistance (but better after the 2nd MOT failure) when I try to drive off with the handbrake up.
What could be going on here as Ive now spent £460 on an old car with 110k miles for a 56 plate.
Thanks.
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I presume he's had it on the rollers and is happy that it's braking evenly and no binding with the handbrake off? If so, it should be good for a retest - assuming your mechanic knows what he's doing.
The caliper carrier holds the pads, and contains the caliper slider pins that allow the single piston caliper to move laterally. Not sure why he would change it, unless he thought there was a problem with the slider pins... which, you would have thought, would show up on the service brake test too.
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Binding with the hand braked off means it’s not partially engaged pressing against the discs right?
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Binding means that the brake is still applying with the handbrake, or indeed service brake, fully released. Usually as a result of a sticking piston, seizing slider pin/s or pads tight in the carrier.
Usual issue with these Jazz brakes is rust scale on the caliper carriers where the pads locate. The scale must be meticulously removed before reassembly, or the pads will jam.
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I used wire brush drill attachments. Toolstation sell a set of three for £2.66
https://www.toolstation.com/wire-brush-set/p24723?store=U1&utm_source=googleshopping&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=googleshoppingfeed&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIm-aOhM6E7QIVEtd3Ch3bmApLEAQYASABEgL7qPD_BwE (https://www.toolstation.com/wire-brush-set/p24723?store=U1&utm_source=googleshopping&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=googleshoppingfeed&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIm-aOhM6E7QIVEtd3Ch3bmApLEAQYASABEgL7qPD_BwE)
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I find the best tool to clean up the surfaces is the gentle use of a proper flat engineer's scraper, followed by a bit of emery. The scale that develops on the caliper carrier surface can be very hard and difficult to remove, especially with a wire brush.
Because it is so hard, it's easy to think you are down to the metal when you are still working through the scale. Once it is clean, the surface should be perfectly flat and the colour should be of bright cast metal, not dull dark grey or brownish, and you should be able to see the milled finish.
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I've just had a similar expierence, with my Mk2 I bit the bullet replaced callipers, discs and pads. Took it back to the mot station who found no difference on the parking brake. Turned out the handbrake cable was stretched on the o/s and the calliper was faulty even though it was faulty. No end of problems trying to return it. So the garage Fitted another one. Ordered a new handbrake cable which wouldn't fit and they couldn't get another part direct from Honda, so that was 193 pounds, plus another calliper so quite expensive in the end. The only real expense since we've had it so not to bad in the long run.
As the company involved wouldn't replace the faulty calliper or accept the discs back that didn't fit. I found out you can contact your debit/ credit card company for a refund. It's not legally as its under 100 pounds but they will review my case and may get my money back. So worth a try if you have problems under a 100. Over a hundred pounds you have more legal rights. Just thought I'd mention it.
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retest failed for a third time, ££460 down plus mot fee, brake pads and discs, changed twice now in a week, both callipers changed, both side hand brake cable changed and carrier changed (used carrier) and parking brake reading still giving a low reading of below 100 on the right offside. The garage where I got the word done "sorted out the MOT" for me so I never went back to the original MOT test centre even though I was still offered one more free retest.
I've lost so many hours on this, Im just hoping the hand brake cable beds in a bit better in the weeks ahead.
Thanks for all the comments.
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retest failed for a third time, ££460 down plus mot fee, brake pads and discs, changed twice now in a week, both callipers changed, both side hand brake cable changed and carrier changed (used carrier) and parking brake reading still giving a low reading of below 100 on the right offside. The garage where I got the word done "sorted out the MOT" for me so I never went back to the original MOT test centre even though I was still offered one more free retest.
I've lost so many hours on this, Im just hoping the hand brake cable beds in a bit better in the weeks ahead.
Thanks for all the comments.
Sorry to hear of your problems and expense. FWIW I replaced the rear discs and pads on my car very recently. Forum posts said that the handrake will bed in, and I am pleased to report that this has happened. The handbrake bites 3 clicks sooner after 200 miles than it did after replacement and is now back to where it was before! :D The forum also advised only applying the handbrake with your foot on the brake pedal. I now do the without fail.
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retest failed for a third time, ££460 down plus mot fee, brake pads and discs, changed twice now in a week, both callipers changed, both side hand brake cable changed and carrier changed (used carrier) and parking brake reading still giving a low reading of below 100 on the right offside.
Everything changed and you still have handbrake imbalance? The handbrake doesn't have to be fantastic to pass an MOT, just even. It should be possible to pass with all new components, before bedding in. Not wanting to sound too critical of your mechanic, but there's something hasn't been done right somewhere. Assuming the service brake results are good, and showing no imbalance, the problem must be with the actuation of the handbrake.
I would be slacking the cables off, reset the caliper handbrake adjusters with the footbrake, then readjust the handbrake cables. This is the correct procedure, if it's not been done this way, you can end up with the actuator on one side not fully retracting, and this does not allow the caliper's internal automatic adjuster to work, giving a weak handbrake on one side.
Observing the cable adjuster and caliper handbrake actuators whilst pulling the handbrake on can give you a pointer - if one actuator rotates noticeably more that the other side, that caliper hasn't adjusted internally, and the cable adjuster will pull over to that side.
Some people fit new rear calipers thinking that they will slot straight in and work - you may get away with it, but you may not... the correct procedure is as above.
There can't be many other options left.