Clubjazz - Honda Jazz & HR-V Forums

Honda Jazz Forums => Honda Jazz Mk1 2002-2008 => Topic started by: Wilderbeest on September 14, 2020, 02:45:20 PM

Title: Jazz se sport
Post by: Wilderbeest on September 14, 2020, 02:45:20 PM
Hi All , I have owned my 05 sport for nine years . I regard it as a mate , its been so reliable. Its toured Europe , going to many F1 Races.  Holidays , fishing trips , its done everything.
The gearbox output bearings  went at 130000 miles.  But just before it was fitted  , the EML came on .
Code reader signified EGR Valve . So , I bought a new one . Then it came on again. This time a mechanic plugged in a 'proper' code reader , oxy sensors. Fitted two new ones . Eml light came on.  New filters ,plugs , Oil . 97 octane fuel.
EML comes on . Idle perfect . good mpg , power good !

Any ideas , before I burn it?
Title: Re: Jazz se sport
Post by: Jazzmeister on September 14, 2020, 04:08:31 PM
Get a decent mechanic that doesn't throw parts at a problem.

What range of errors can the code you got be caused by?
Often a code may only be a secondary issue caused by something else.
Title: Re: Jazz se sport
Post by: Wilderbeest on September 14, 2020, 11:36:47 PM
I have tried everyone , but Honda themselves.   The code is always the same EGR Valve P0401.
I am baffled , as all the other on board systems have been checked out , and proved to be ok.
Cat, Mass airflow sensor cleaned, throttle body removed and cleaned,. Petrol cap seal checked, and on and on.
I refuse to go to Honda, and pay them more than the old girl is worth.
Title: Re: Jazz se sport
Post by: Jocko on September 15, 2020, 07:14:36 AM
The error code P0401 most likely means that one or more of the following has happened:

The DPFE or also known as differential pressure feedback EGR sensor needs to be completely replaced or it is faulty.
There is a blockage in the EGR tube
The EGR valve is faulty
The EGR valve many not be opening due to lack of vacuum.
Restricted or clogged EGR passages
The EGR valve stuck closed
Problems with DPFE sensor and hoses
Clogged catalytic converter
Carboned up EGR temperature sensor
Engine computer issues and problems
Electrical problems with EGR valve control circuit
Vacuum supply problem at the vacuum operated EGR valve


I would check that the wiring to the EGR is sound and if you can, is it getting an "On" signal.
Title: Re: Jazz se sport
Post by: Wilderbeest on September 15, 2020, 09:44:43 PM
Hi , Yes thanks for that , the EGR Valve has been replaced with a brand new (German) unit. the egr passages have been de-coked , the vacuum pipes have been taken off plugged and pressure tested.
The cat has been analysed, by computer , and had an infra red temp sensor taking temps at either end, and all seems well.
I will look into this DPFE sensor , if I can find it.
Title: Re: Jazz se sport
Post by: Jazzmeister on September 18, 2020, 11:19:24 AM
Hi , Yes thanks for that , the EGR Valve has been replaced with a brand new (German) unit. the egr passages have been de-coked , the vacuum pipes have been taken off plugged and pressure tested.
The cat has been analysed, by computer , and had an infra red temp sensor taking temps at either end, and all seems well.
I will look into this DPFE sensor , if I can find it.
Try cleaning the plug into the sensor because if the connection is bad the added resistance will affect the output of the sensor and may cause the error.

Also how old is your battery, older batteries that are on the way out can cause random sensor issues.
Title: Re: Jazz se sport
Post by: Wilderbeest on September 23, 2020, 01:46:10 PM
The battery is nearly new ,(march), the connector is fine. I have been given the number of a 'Honda specialist' , who told me " Yes this is common on high mileage Jazz's " , "the inlet manifold will be blocked with carbon deposits" restricting recycled gas flow". To inspect  and clean it (apparently it needs to be hoovered out so the deposits don'T enter the engine and ruin it) £165 plus VAT :o
Any of you chaps heard of this?
Title: Re: Jazz se sport
Post by: madasafish on September 23, 2020, 03:16:58 PM
It's common with diesels and happens on petrol engine driven largely short distances.

I cleaned the inlet manifold of our 2003 Yaris Diesel...  the effective diameter was reduced by 50% by carbon build up...

(a lengthy and messy business)
Title: Re: Jazz se sport
Post by: sparky Paul on September 23, 2020, 03:32:12 PM
DTC troubleshooting for P0401 on the Jazz

http://www.hondafitjazz.com/manual/A00/HTML/11/SAA2E11K72100081801FAAT00.HTML
Title: Re: Jazz se sport
Post by: Jazzmeister on September 25, 2020, 01:21:15 PM
The battery is nearly new ,(march), the connector is fine. I have been given the number of a 'Honda specialist' , who told me " Yes this is common on high mileage Jazz's " , "the inlet manifold will be blocked with carbon deposits" restricting recycled gas flow". To inspect  and clean it (apparently it needs to be hoovered out so the deposits don'T enter the engine and ruin it) £165 plus VAT :o
Any of you chaps heard of this?
That doesn't sound right, heavy carbon buildup in the intakes sufficient to cause issues on a petrol engine only really started with the introduction of direct injection engines and in terms of the Honda Jazz that was from 2015 with the Mk3.
Title: Re: Jazz se sport
Post by: equaliser on September 25, 2020, 06:49:06 PM
The battery is nearly new ,(march), the connector is fine. I have been given the number of a 'Honda specialist' , who told me " Yes this is common on high mileage Jazz's " , "the inlet manifold will be blocked with carbon deposits" restricting recycled gas flow". To inspect  and clean it (apparently it needs to be hoovered out so the deposits don'T enter the engine and ruin it) £165 plus VAT :o
Any of you chaps heard of this?
That doesn't sound right, heavy carbon buildup in the intakes sufficient to cause issues on a petrol engine only really started with the introduction of direct injection engines and in terms of the Honda Jazz that was from 2015 with the Mk3.
It's the exhaust gas recirculation circuit that causes the carbon build-up. Exhaust gases are fed into the inlet manifold to help lower the combustion temperatures which lowers the NOx output. The EGR valve controls this behaviour, it's normally open to allow exhaust gases in during part-throttle loads and closed under idle and full throttle hence cars which seldom see high engine speeds suffer from more build-up of carbon deposits. There was a photo of the inlet manifold covered in carbon deposits on the forum recently.
Title: Re: Jazz se sport
Post by: Jazzmeister on September 26, 2020, 01:08:44 PM
The battery is nearly new ,(march), the connector is fine. I have been given the number of a 'Honda specialist' , who told me " Yes this is common on high mileage Jazz's " , "the inlet manifold will be blocked with carbon deposits" restricting recycled gas flow". To inspect  and clean it (apparently it needs to be hoovered out so the deposits don'T enter the engine and ruin it) £165 plus VAT :o
Any of you chaps heard of this?
That doesn't sound right, heavy carbon buildup in the intakes sufficient to cause issues on a petrol engine only really started with the introduction of direct injection engines and in terms of the Honda Jazz that was from 2015 with the Mk3.
It's the exhaust gas recirculation circuit that causes the carbon build-up. Exhaust gases are fed into the inlet manifold to help lower the combustion temperatures which lowers the NOx output. The EGR valve controls this behaviour, it's normally open to allow exhaust gases in during part-throttle loads and closed under idle and full throttle hence cars which seldom see high engine speeds suffer from more build-up of carbon deposits. There was a photo of the inlet manifold covered in carbon deposits on the forum recently.
I've heard of an egr getting blocked but as far as I understand if the EGR system is otherwise working fine it's not going to carbon up the intake much.
It's the oil vapour from the pcv that cause the buildup.

Your PCV could be malfunctioning and introducing large amounts of oil into the intake.
Title: Re: Jazz se sport
Post by: Jazzmeister on September 26, 2020, 01:10:54 PM
Whatever the case may be I'd try get a borescope camera off Amazon or eBay, they are cheap and work well.

Find the easiest way to send that into the intake manifold and see what's what down there for yourself, mechanics will throw labour and parts at a problem until something works and let you pay for it. You won't know if it's carbon build up until you pull the intake off or send a borescope camera down there.
Title: Re: Jazz se sport
Post by: Jocko on September 26, 2020, 01:15:49 PM
Your PCV could be malfunctioning and introducing large amounts of oil into the intake.
If that was the case you should be burning large amounts of oil and aware of it, either in a smoky exhaust or falling level on stick.

If you Google "Honda Jazz carbon build up in inlet manifold" it is only an issue with DI engines. Without "Honda Jazz" all you get is DI and Diesels.
Title: Re: Jazz se sport
Post by: Jazzmeister on September 27, 2020, 07:14:09 PM
Your PCV could be malfunctioning and introducing large amounts of oil into the intake.
If that was the case you should be burning large amounts of oil and aware of it, either in a smoky exhaust or falling level on stick.

If you Google "Honda Jazz carbon build up in inlet manifold" it is only an issue with DI engines. Without "Honda Jazz" all you get is DI and Diesels.
Depends on how damaged the PCV system is, it may just be letting in enough excess oil to carbon up the inlet over an extended period but not be sufficient to otherwise cause noticeable issues. It's just one aspect to consider.
Title: Re: Jazz se sport
Post by: Wilderbeest on September 28, 2020, 10:48:56 AM
Thanks All, this has been going on since May, and I have tried almost everything , new EGR etc.   Every machine just brings up egr insufficient flow .
I thought that garage was 'taking the mickey'. How many owners would fall for it though?
I will just keep running it with the light on , as it runs great, doesn't burn oil etc.
Even the emissions are good?

I will keep putting 99 octane in it ,and drive it like i stole it , to see if that clears it . ;D

 
Title: Re: Jazz se sport
Post by: Jocko on September 28, 2020, 11:29:40 AM
Just be aware, it won't pass an MOT with the light on.
Title: Re: Jazz se sport
Post by: Wilderbeest on September 29, 2020, 11:54:26 AM
It wont have the light on when it goes for an MOT. I will disconnect the battery to re set the computer , or turn it off with a meter. It normally stays off for a few hours of running  ;D
Title: Re: Jazz se sport
Post by: Wilderbeest on November 15, 2020, 05:26:22 AM
I ran it with an OBD Code reader permanently attached for two months. Which always gave the same code when the EML came on. 401 Insufficient flow EGR .
I phoned a 'Independent' Honda Specialist , who advised me that, the EGR passages that are behind the Inlet manifold gasket will be blocked. He quoted £180 , to do the job ?
So , yesterday, out with the socket sets, and thirty minutes later the inlet manifold was off.
There is a steel gasket behind the manifold , which once removed reveals the passages that link the Egr valve to the exhaust .
Wow , these were full of oily thick carbon , with only a very tiny passage remaining for gas to flow  through.
A flat  bladed screw driver , and a can of egr cleaner, removed masses of baked in carbon.
No new gaskets were required , and an hour later , it was like having a new engine fitted.
NO EML , NO Juddering , 40 Plus mpg showing on the dash. And it didnt cost a penny.
This is after buying and fitting;
8 PLUGS
2 LAMDA SENSORS.
1 EGR VALVE
All advised by garage mechanics , after OBD Assessment's.

So, from my experience , if you get a 401 code ,'Insufficient EGR Flow'.
1, clean the EGR Valve.
2, Remove the inlet manifold, and clean the passages , as described above.
Likely Cost , 1tin of Hots EGR cleaner Spray £5.00.

I hope this helps someone.
Title: Re: Jazz se sport
Post by: Westy36 on November 15, 2020, 12:56:42 PM
That's a great outcome for some time and £5! The cheap fixes are always the best.   ;) Well done for sticking by your 'mate' of a car and seeing it to the end. I'm sure most people would have given up before you did.

 
Title: Re: Jazz se sport
Post by: sparky Paul on November 17, 2020, 09:10:18 AM
I missed the outcome of this one, what a great post above. I'm sure it will prove useful to someone in future.

I've come across this before, where the EGR valve has been so clogged up that it's backed up into the pipework and manifold chambers. Subsequent cleaning of the valve has little or no effect.

In this case, the diagnostic code was telling you exactly what was wrong.