Author Topic: What have I done? Sticky steering gone...  (Read 8194 times)

sparky Paul

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What have I done? Sticky steering gone...
« on: May 17, 2018, 11:15:24 PM »
Something interesting has happened to the steering on the Jazz, after some minor work on the car.

What I am talking about here is the sticky, notchy steering feel which afflicts many older Jazzes, rather than the vague, wooly feeling and the lack of centreing, which is a characteristic of the Jazz steering and suspension set up. Ours has been similarly afflicted, however I have found this mostly tolerable, though there are times when it can become an irritation. I have noticed this has been getting steadily worse since last year.

As I think I have mentioned before, it has also occurred to me that the problem occurs more so once the engine is warm, the steering always feels perfectly okay when the car is stone cold. After driving 10 miles or so, the problem appears.

Anyway, some time ago, I acquired a nearly new steering wheel to replace the rather tatty object on our high miles Jazz. A few days ago, I thought I would change it, and all went without problem and the new steering wheel looks great. However, there has been a rather unexpected side effect - the sticky steering has gone. I didn't drive the car after changing the steering wheel, but my other half asked what I had done to fix the steering, and today I have driven over 60 miles and the steering feels perfect.

So, what have I done, or disturbed? It all sounds rather unlikely, but it's a strange coincidence, if that's what it is. The only thing I can think of during this procedure that may have affected the steering rack in any way is the shock you have to give the old steering wheel to release it from the splines, it takes a bit of thumping upwards to free the splines.

In any case, the problem appears to be completely fixed, at the moment. If it will return, I do not know, but I'll keep you updated.

Jocko

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Re: What have I done? Sticky steering gone...
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2018, 07:22:53 AM »
Well done. Any repair intended or otherwise is worth doing! It was maybe a sticky top bush.

sparky Paul

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Re: What have I done? Sticky steering gone...
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2018, 08:39:09 AM »
Well done. Any repair intended or otherwise is worth doing! It was maybe a sticky top bush.

It's all a bit bizarre, and totally unexpected. I can't take any credit for it, as whatever I did was completely unintended. The only other stuff I did the same day were clean the EGR valve and replace the n/s front droplink, but I can't imagine how either of those could have had any effect.

It always felt to me like a lack of lubrication in the steering column somewhere, the best way I can describe it is like turning a shaft in a tight, dry rubber bush - but it only occurs after 10 miles or so, when everything in the engine bay will have warmed up, and particularly when you have held a particular steering position for 5-10 seconds. I did wonder if thumping the shaft upwards has moved it, taking pressure off something, either on the column, or inside the rack.

It would be nice to understand what's happened. What about all those who have spent £££s on a new rack to fix this problem?
« Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 12:23:16 PM by sparky Paul »

guest7630

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Re: What have I done? Sticky steering gone...
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2018, 10:55:48 PM »
Did you have to tap the new wheel onto the splines with the same force?

John A

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Re: What have I done? Sticky steering gone...
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2018, 07:02:59 AM »
Was something rubbing between the old steering wheel which the new one doesn't?

sparky Paul

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Re: What have I done? Sticky steering gone...
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2018, 06:51:53 PM »
Did you have to tap the new wheel onto the splines with the same force?

No, torquing the centre fixing bolt tightens the wheel down.

Was something rubbing between the old steering wheel which the new one doesn't?

The wheels are identical, apart from the wear. In any case, the fault never manifested itself until the engine bay warmed up. I'm pretty certain there's something going on in the steering rack causing this fairly common issue, and quite possibly at the column input side.

fashionphotography

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Re: What have I done? Sticky steering gone...
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2021, 09:07:59 AM »
on a similar note..
my jazz also suffers very sticky steering in a straight line once warmed up on motorways.
BUT!
being over fussy i noticed the steering wheel was very slightly angled to the right when driving straight . so with eyeball engineering i noticed that with the front wheels straight the nearside looked like it was slightly tracking out. although theres been no pulling or tyre wear.. anyway  whipped the nearside wheel off gave the track rod arm locknut a thump with a small hammer which often helps when loosening them. adjusted the toe in by about 2 turns. anyway that was wednesday. yesterday friday i had to do a long motorway journey and first thing i thought was great steering wheels straight now . but as the journey continued and i was expecting the steering to start stiffening up . it was clearly a whole lot better.. its quiet workable now. so deffo a 85% improvement.. was it the thump or simply tracking ?

E27006

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Re: What have I done? Sticky steering gone...
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2021, 05:23:12 PM »
On other Honda models with electrically assisted steering,  there is a spiral clockspring behind the steering wheel which is used to detect steering wheel position for the control module to drive the steering rack motor. I assume the Jazz is similar.
Perhaps your changing of the steering wheel has freed  a  stiff  clockspring

culzean

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Re: What have I done? Sticky steering gone...
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2021, 09:51:35 AM »
IIRC the clockspring behind the steering wheel is just a spiral ribbon cable to carry signals from moving to fixed part of steering column, including airbags and any button mounted on steering wheel.  There may be steering sensors on the moving part that need to transmit their data to fixed part and then to other parts of the system through the conductors in the clockspring, but the clockspring itself is not an active component .
« Last Edit: October 18, 2021, 10:07:42 AM by culzean »
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Kenneve

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Re: What have I done? Sticky steering gone...
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2021, 11:26:56 AM »
on a similar note..
my jazz also suffers very sticky steering in a straight line once warmed up on motorways.
 anyway  whipped the nearside wheel off gave the track rod arm locknut a thump with a small hammer which often helps when loosening them. adjusted the toe in by about 2 turns.
2 turns sounds a hell of a lot, unless it was way out.
I would have the tracking checked by your local tyre centre

fashionphotography

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Re: What have I done? Sticky steering gone...
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2021, 08:01:11 AM »
its a very fine thread on the arm.. so only just got the steering wheel straight which was my goal. it was only a fraction out in the first place.. but made a lot of difference to the at speed stiff steering

E27006

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Re: What have I done? Sticky steering gone...
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2021, 12:54:39 PM »
IIRC the clockspring behind the steering wheel is just a spiral ribbon cable to carry signals from moving to fixed part of steering column, including airbags and any button mounted on steering wheel.  There may be steering sensors on the moving part that need to transmit their data to fixed part and then to other parts of the system through the conductors in the clockspring, but the clockspring itself is not an active component .

Thank you for correcting my misunderstanding of the function of the steering wheel clockspring.

Please advise how the power assisted  steering system operates,  how is steering wheel position measured or detected?
I wish to learn of  the method by which the steering wheel is detected in the straight ahead  position, and when the driver rotates the steering wheel to manoeuver the vehicle.

culzean

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Re: What have I done? Sticky steering gone...
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2021, 01:11:50 PM »
IIRC the clockspring behind the steering wheel is just a spiral ribbon cable to carry signals from moving to fixed part of steering column, including airbags and any button mounted on steering wheel.  There may be steering sensors on the moving part that need to transmit their data to fixed part and then to other parts of the system through the conductors in the clockspring, but the clockspring itself is not an active component .

Thank you for correcting my misunderstanding of the function of the steering wheel clockspring.

Please advise how the power assisted  steering system operates,  how is steering wheel position measured or detected?
I wish to learn of  the method by which the steering wheel is detected in the straight ahead  position, and when the driver rotates the steering wheel to manoeuver the vehicle.

How the system on Honda works in detail is a bit above my pay grade  :-X  I know there are torque sensors involved that detect when steering wheel is turned and how hard / fast it is turned,  there are also wheel angle sensors that detect how far the wheels are turned in relation to centreline of the car, there are optical sensors  and windows to detect how far steering has been turned, and in which direction so that even after power has been off the system the control unit can know the position of steering.   Honda has a system called VSA  ( vehicle stability assist ) that can help car recover from a skid - and the VSA need input from steering angle sensors and accelerometers to detect whether the car is going in same direction that wheels are pointing,  the VSA then uses the ABS system to selectively apply brakes to help pull the vehicle straight.  VSA also includes traction control by detecting ABS pulses from wheel sensors.

Soon after I got Civic i decided to try VSA out,  I chose a fairly large island ( with no traffic ) during wet weather and deliberately applied too much power to invoke a skid,  all that happened is that VSA light flashed and the car drifted very gently and slowly in direction of skid,  no drama at all,  the VSA cut power to engine to stop wheels spinning and applied some brakes to steady the car.  I guess if I had tried it on ice the engine power would have been cut completely until wheels stopped spinning. 
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

E27006

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Re: What have I done? Sticky steering gone...
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2021, 02:18:11 PM »

How the system on Honda works in detail is a bit above my pay grade  :-X  I know there are torque sensors involved that detect when steering wheel is turned and how hard / fast it is turned,  there are also wheel angle sensors that detect how far the wheels are turned in relation to centreline of the car, there are optical sensors  and windows to detect how far steering has been turned, and in which direction so that even after power has been off the system the control unit can know the position of steering.   Honda has a system called VSA  ( vehicle stability assist ) that can help car recover from a skid - and the VSA need input from steering angle sensors and accelerometers to detect whether the car is going in same direction that wheels are pointing,  the VSA then uses the ABS system to selectively apply br
akes to help pull the vehicle straight.  VSA also includes traction control by detecting ABS pulses from wheel sensors.


The mark 1 Jazz has a basic system of power assisted  steering, and the car  lacks VSA etc, when Honda launched the Mark 2 in 2009, the Honda technical summary stated  power steering of the Mark 1 had been identified as a  weak point of the car and the shortcoming had been corrected   for the Mark 2

culzean

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Re: What have I done? Sticky steering gone...
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2021, 02:54:49 PM »

How the system on Honda works in detail is a bit above my pay grade  :-X  I know there are torque sensors involved that detect when steering wheel is turned and how hard / fast it is turned,  there are also wheel angle sensors that detect how far the wheels are turned in relation to centreline of the car, there are optical sensors  and windows to detect how far steering has been turned, and in which direction so that even after power has been off the system the control unit can know the position of steering.   Honda has a system called VSA  ( vehicle stability assist ) that can help car recover from a skid - and the VSA need input from steering angle sensors and accelerometers to detect whether the car is going in same direction that wheels are pointing,  the VSA then uses the ABS system to selectively apply br
akes to help pull the vehicle straight.  VSA also includes traction control by detecting ABS pulses from wheel sensors.


The mark 1 Jazz has a basic system of power assisted  steering, and the car  lacks VSA etc, when Honda launched the Mark 2 in 2009, the Honda technical summary stated  power steering of the Mark 1 had been identified as a  weak point of the car and the shortcoming had been corrected   for the Mark 2

One of the corrections made was to increase the size of the assist motor, the MK1 motor drew about 40 amps,  the MK2 went up to 60amps - really Honda were in the lead on EPS,  it was fitted in the 1990 Honda NSX.   Early systems from all suppliers had the tendency to drain the car battery in very short time,  so the MK1 Honda system was designed to use a lower current than was perhaps advisable, which explains most of its problems. IIRC Honda also changed the physical steering geometry after the MK1 to give better self-centering action.   The current draw of EPS is one reason it is advisable to keep a decent battery on the car,  if the EPS cannot get power from battery it will try to get it direct from alternator,  resulting in lower voltages on whole of car electrics, and various problems can be caused by low system voltage, including random fault codes for things unconnected to the steering system.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2021, 02:58:40 PM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

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