Author Topic: Here we go again  (Read 2964 times)

Kremmen

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Here we go again
« on: April 12, 2022, 07:48:19 AM »
A friend couldn't get any petrol yesterday.

All stations in and around Harrow were either shut or had very long queues.

These eco **!!** need sorting, and quick
Let's be careful out there !

culzean

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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2022, 10:15:34 AM »
A friend couldn't get any petrol yesterday.

All stations in and around Harrow were either shut or had very long queues.

These eco **!!** need sorting, and quick

They need to clue themselves up on exactly what comes from crude oil.  Many of the things we take for granted in modern world that have nothing to do with energy or transport... stuff like medicines, the clothes people wear everyday, food preservatives, paint - the list is pretty impressive.  These tunnel vision eco-loonies will have us all back in the stone age living a subsistence existence huddled round some flaming sticks..
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

Jocko

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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2022, 01:56:55 PM »
huddled round some flaming sticks..
Not very Eco friendly.  :)

Bazzzer

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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2022, 04:03:31 PM »
huddled round some flaming sticks..
Not very Eco friendly.  :)

I thought burning biomass was carbon neutral. Or so they'd have us believe. ::)

Jocko

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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2022, 07:48:00 PM »
CO2

culzean

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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2022, 10:40:50 AM »
huddled round some flaming sticks..
Not very Eco friendly.  :)

I thought burning biomass was carbon neutral. Or so they'd have us believe. ::)

Don't believe much that greenies say,  they pretty much contradict themselves every time they open their mouths.   Imagine a world with no fossil fuels - all the trees would have long ago disappeared and the land washed away, and we would have scarce and expensive steel ( still melted with charcoal ) and a lot of our disinfectants and medicines would not exist. Trouble is with greenies they seem to have tunnel vision, they accept all the benefits that fossil fuels have bought to modern world and in the same breath they want to get rid of them, without saying what would replace them - except for vague references to 'green energy' - but energy alone would not replace all the other stuff we get from oil and coal.   If we had to rely on bio-fuels for our needs where would we grow food ? 
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

Kremmen

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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2022, 10:51:50 AM »
I'm frankly amazed by some of them.

A team of doctors and nurses blocked one of Londons bridges earlier this week.

These are intelligent people and my thought is that - are they being 'radicalised' on social media with fake news.
Let's be careful out there !

JimSh

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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2022, 11:47:37 AM »

They need to clue themselves up on exactly what comes from crude oil.  Many of the things we take for granted in modern world that have nothing to do with energy or transport... stuff like medicines, the clothes people wear everyday, food preservatives, paint - the list is pretty impressive.

All the more reason not to burn fossil fuels.


I'm frankly amazed by some of them.

A team of doctors and nurses blocked one of Londons bridges earlier this week.



These are intelligent people and my thought is that - are they being 'radicalised' on social media with fake news.

Perhaps they are intelligent enough to see that the continued (and increasing) burning of fossil fuels is unsustainable.

Lord Voltermore

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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2022, 12:33:54 PM »
 They need to target efforts  where they can actually get public support and achieve change.   Insulating Britain is sensible.  Save energy, not find more.  Whats not to like.   But their  protesters   are  alienating any broader  public  support   by their very stupid tactics and alliances to other 'green' protest groups  who's aims , however necessary , are a much  harder sell to society. 

  As with most protest movements the decent ones with a just cause  have been highjacked  by worm tonged  activists ( :P)  whos dont really care about the claimed issue.  They just enjoy protesting, or  disrupting society for political purposes.   
I suspect if any are run over they will still expect society to provide a diesel powered ambulance to take them to a fully staffed hospital,  and benefit from modern medical science. 

Sure climate change would probably end if the world had 7 million humans living green lives in Yurts. Not 7 billion living as we do now.    But advocates tend to assume they will be among the 7 million.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2022, 12:43:51 PM by Lord Voltermore »
Sorry if its too long winded. I failed my brevity exam at school. Ran out of paper.

MartinJG

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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2022, 01:52:30 PM »

Utter farce and doubtless being orchestrated by the next 'Bond Baddy' in waiting, Klaus Schwab and members of the  'You will own nothing and be happy' club who seem to pull most of the globalist strings. The west seems to be disappearing up its nether region rather too quickly for comfort.

JimSh

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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2022, 02:35:51 PM »
They need to target efforts  where they can actually get public support and achieve change.   Insulating Britain is sensible.  Save energy, not find more.  Whats not to like.   
Exactly

   But their  protesters   are  alienating any broader  public  support   by their very stupid tactics and alliances to other 'green' protest groups  who's aims , however necessary , are a much  harder sell to society. 

As you say, they are alienating the general public.
On the other hand they will not achieve anything until they are noticed.

culzean

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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2022, 02:41:29 PM »

They need to clue themselves up on exactly what comes from crude oil.  Many of the things we take for granted in modern world that have nothing to do with energy or transport... stuff like medicines, the clothes people wear everyday, food preservatives, paint - the list is pretty impressive.

All the more reason not to burn fossil fuels.


Errrr.... the bits we burn are not the same as bits we get all the other stuff from,  so we will still need to refine crude to get the stuff we need, but petrol, diesel and kerosene will become 'waste products' if we do not use them.  Looking forward to electric cargo /  passenger planes with a range long enough to cross Atlantic at least, and Oh Mach 3 and 4 fighter planes that run on batteries,  not to mention battery powered 60 ton tanks, battery powered hypersonic missiles etc. etc. etc. .
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

JimSh

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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2022, 02:59:11 PM »

They need to clue themselves up on exactly what comes from crude oil.  Many of the things we take for granted in modern world that have nothing to do with energy or transport... stuff like medicines, the clothes people wear everyday, food preservatives, paint - the list is pretty impressive.

All the more reason not to burn fossil fuels.


Errrr.... the bits we burn are not the same as bits we get all the other stuff from,  so we will still need to refine crude to get the stuff we need, but petrol, diesel and kerosene will become 'waste products' if we do not use them.
Oh yes they are.
Long chain hydrocarbons are relatively easy to split into shorter chain ones (cracking)
or changed into different isomers, cyclics and aromatics (reforming)
« Last Edit: April 13, 2022, 07:40:39 PM by JimSh »

embee

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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2022, 03:16:54 PM »
I suppose it's another of those subjects where rational discussion and pragmatic approaches simply don't register on the simplistic (puerile even) media radar. Let's face it it's only the media which has any real sway these days.
I believe in pragmatism, being realistic, and very often the old 80/20 rule. This doesn't cut through today. Mind you, it has always been thus to a great extent, think suffrage 100+ years ago.

I'm in support of reducing emissions of both toxic and detrimental substances into the environment, it'll bite us all in the bum sooner or later. There is always, however, a realistic threshold where cost/benefit (in the broadest sense) tends to reverse for most things. It's the old adage that perfection should not be the enemy of good.
Zero CO2 doesn't actually make practical sense, it really isn't necessary to reach zero, it becomes a dogma which doesn't benefit anyone. If we can reduce emissions by 80% using 20% of the effort, then that's the way to go. Don't cut our noses off to spite our faces and go all out for the last 20%.
My personal bugbears at the moment are the campaigns against domestic gas boilers and diesel trucks. Not to bore everyone with the sums yet again but they are not the villains they are made out to be, or more precisely the remedies are not what they are made out to be.
Domestic gas boilers pretty much match (or better) an electric heat pump powered by a gas fired power station. Diesel trucks are relatively clean these days, outside urban environments, and are pretty fuel efficient in terms of tonne.miles per gallon (or kg/CO2 emitted), better than a typical car by a factor of  more than 5.
A 1.2 tonne car does say 50mpg = 60 tonne.mpg, a 44 tonne truck does almost 8mpg (*)= 350 tonne.mpg . Changing the car to electric makes some sense, changing the truck to electric doesn't. Concentrate on the lower hanging fruit.

* = https://mwtruckparts.co.uk/what-fuel-economy-mpg-does-a-lorry-get

culzean

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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2022, 03:27:53 PM »
I suppose it's another of those subjects where rational discussion and pragmatic approaches simply don't register on the simplistic (puerile even) media radar. Let's face it it's only the media which has any real sway these days.
I believe in pragmatism, being realistic, and very often the old 80/20 rule. This doesn't cut through today. Mind you, it has always been thus to a great extent, think suffrage 100+ years ago.

I'm in support of reducing emissions of both toxic and detrimental substances into the environment, it'll bite us all in the bum sooner or later. There is always, however, a realistic threshold where cost/benefit (in the broadest sense) tends to reverse for most things. It's the old adage that perfection should not be the enemy of good.
Zero CO2 doesn't actually make practical sense, it really isn't necessary to reach zero, it becomes a dogma which doesn't benefit anyone. If we can reduce emissions by 80% using 20% of the effort, then that's the way to go. Don't cut our noses off to spite our faces and go all out for the last 20%.
My personal bugbears at the moment are the campaigns against domestic gas boilers and diesel trucks. Not to bore everyone with the sums yet again but they are not the villains they are made out to be, or more precisely the remedies are not what they are made out to be.
Domestic gas boilers pretty much match (or better) an electric heat pump powered by a gas fired power station. Diesel trucks are relatively clean these days, outside urban environments, and are pretty fuel efficient in terms of tonne.miles per gallon (or kg/CO2 emitted), better than a typical car by a factor of  more than 5.
A 1.2 tonne car does say 50mpg = 60 tonne.mpg, a 44 tonne truck does almost 8mpg (*)= 350 tonne.mpg . Changing the car to electric makes some sense, changing the truck to electric doesn't. Concentrate on the lower hanging fruit.

* = https://mwtruckparts.co.uk/what-fuel-economy-mpg-does-a-lorry-get

Lorries are much harder to electrify as well, the 12 tonne + battery just detracts from the payload that can be carried,  a normal diesel powertrain is about 1200Kg and over 200 gallons of fuel about 1000kg, unlike a battery the fuel tank gets lighter as fuel is used. Range of diesel lorry can be easily over 1200 miles ( up to 2000 miles with twin 150 gallon tanks ), range of electric lorry 400 ? ( if there are no hills ). Time and current required to charge a 12 tonne battery  :o

There is no doubt that burning fossil fuels has affected the planet, but I think if we had needed to get all our energy needs from wood that the planet would be a desert now, a bit like Mars, devoid of trees and also devoid of all the other stuff that makes human existance comfortable and  in no small way independent of natures whims ( which is not the case with solar and wind by the way ) - and take humans from a subsistence existence to being able to have reliable food supply, medicines, disinfectants, fertilisers etc. etc.

At the moment we seem to be throwing the baby out with the bathwater... I am glad that Boris has at last realised that we cannot use unreliable fans on sticks and solar panels ( useless this far north ) to power a decent lifestyle / economy.

Tesco is using 37 tonne DAF electric HGV with range of 100 miles using 350kw/h battery which weighs in at 700kg. 

https://www.commercialfleet.org/news/truck-news/2022/01/04/tesco-deploys-uk-s-first-electric-articulated-hgvs
« Last Edit: April 13, 2022, 04:04:49 PM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

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