Question about Mk3 steering compared to Mk1 and Mk2

[mikebore]

I have a Mk2, and my wife has a Mk1.

I don't like the Mk1 steering, which has no feel and no self centering, due to the electric power assist.

My wife doesn't like the Mk2 steering which is very light and over assisted, but doesn't have the Mk1 problems.

I have had a brief test drive in a Mk3 which felt like it didn't have either of the above problems, like the Mk2 but less power assisted.

Any comment?

Thanks

[John Ratsey]

I've no complaints about the steering on my Mk 3 but also had no complaints about my Mk 2 hybrid in this respect.

[mikebore]

Thanks John,

I am also OK with the Mk 2 steering but I do feel it is very light (a lot of power assistance).

Are you saying you don't think there is any difference between Mk2 and Mk3?

[John Ratsey]

I am also OK with the Mk 2 steering but I do feel it is very light (a lot of power assistance).

Are you saying you don't think there is any difference between Mk2 and Mk3?

I'm not saying that there's no difference (and remember that there were some updates to the Jazz at the time the hybrid was brought out) but I've found both to be easy to drive in the direction I want. The only way to be sure of identifying differences is doing back-to-back testing while taking specific note of the steering behaviour.

Sensibly, Honda will have further tweaked the steering behaviour for the Mk 3.

[culzean]

I was OK with my MK1 and am OK with my wifes present MK11 Si steering (which is sharper than the MK1),  but both are shamed by the steering on my Civic,  which is very positive as it only has only about 2 turns from lock to lock,  what the Civic does lack though is the 'London Taxi' turning circle of the Jazz,  which means I can get my wifes car in and out of carpark spaces in one go that the Civic needs two or more bites at !    I always have to concentrate when I first get into Jazz to turn the wheel more when  driving to get the same response from front wheels as the Civic.   

Seems the Jazz is a much more city orientated car than the Civic and Jazz steering is lighter,  but the downside is that Jazz steering is more fussy than Civic and you have to turn steering wheel further and re-position hands more often.
 

[Sidot]

Steering is one thing about my mk3 that doesn't trouble me.
Noticed no discernable difference between my new and old Jazz.
Steering on mk2 went out of line on one occasion but local dealer put it right without charge.

[Downsizer]

I seem to remember that in the official Mk3 publicity, reference was made to a steering change meaning fewer turns lock to lock.  I can't say I've noticed any difference, and haven't had a problem with either Mk2 or Mk3.  But my Mk2 was 2008 - there may have been changes by 2011.
The Mk 3 spec is 2.67 turns lock to lock for the S & SE, and 2.52 for the EX.  Why the difference?

I've now found the reference (15 July 2015):
http://hondanews.eu/eu/en/cars/media/pressreleases/58052/2015-honda-jazz2?utm_campaign=Syndicated_58052&utm_medium=RSS_All%20Press%20Releases&utm_source=hondanews.eu
This says the steering ratio is reduced from  18.2:1 to 14.1:1   This doesn't explain the difference between the models though.
And I've now also found the 2008 Autocar test of the MK 2, which describes the steering as 3.29 turns lock to lock.

[Downsizer]

The Mk 3 spec is 2.67 turns lock to lock for the S & SE, and 2.52 for the EX.  Why the difference?

One possible explanation is that the track (both front and back) is 6 mm less on the EX compared to the S and SE models.  Could this restrict the lock?  However, the turning circle is quoted as 10.8 metres for all three models.

[mikebore]

Thanks all...seems like I am the only one who finds the steering on the Mk 2 too light. My Mk 2 is an ES, so the wider tyres on the EX might be bit less light and maybe what some of you have.

I am encouraged by the reduced turns lock-to-lock in the Mk3, as, all else being equal, (which it probably isn't), this should lead to heavier feel.

[mikebore]

Thanks very much for that link, Downsizer. One of the most informative I have come across.

It includes this sentence:

The front suspension features new geometry with a lower front roll centre to enhance stability, which helps the 2015 Jazz feel more accurate, natural and agile when cornering. The feeling of enhanced agility is augmented by a new electric power-assisted steering system which is 22.5% ‘faster’ to respond (the steering ratio is reduced from 18.2:1 to 14.1:1) and results in greater feedback for the driver.

Now that I have had my car for four days, I can fully confirm this. There is better feedback in the steering compared to my ultra light over-assisted (IMHO) Mk2 steering. Even my wife, not one to be impressed by marketing claims has commented on it.

Pity the turning circle has gone up from 9.88m to 10.8m

[Downsizer]

Pity the turning circle has gone up from 9.88m to 10.8m

Turning circle depends on how you measure it: kerb to kerb (i.e the circle described by the wheel track) or wall to wall (allowing for overhang of body parts.   The autocar review of the MK 2 gave the turning circle as 9.48m.  The Mk3 brochure gives it as 10.8m "at body".  Clearly they are measuring different things.

[mikebore]

Good points! I took my numbers from the Mk2 and Mk3 brochures, so hope they are the same definition.

[culzean]

The steering ratio is the amount (angle) you have to turn the steering wheel to turn the car wheels a certain angle.   Reducing the ratio means you don't have to turn the steering wheel so much to achieve a given steering angle and you get a more direct response- an FI car might be 1:1 and a city car 18 or 20:1.

Also inside wheel of a car has to turn through a greater angle than the outside wheel because it is making a smaller radius turn (smaller by the track width of the car wheels).

https://defdriving.wordpress.com/2011/01/25/how-a-car%E2%80%99s-steering-works-part-one/

My guess would be that as the steering ratio gets less (more direct steering)  the turning circle increases,  I noticed this a long time ago when swapping from Jazz to Civic and back when I had to be careful to move the steering wheel more on bends in the Jazz or risk hitting the curb,  the Civic is more direct which is great on the road (feels more sporty) but not so good on small car parks where I have to take two or three bites at getting into a space that I could get in one on the Jazz.  Everything is a trade off it seems.

[guest6133]

I have driven and drive in recent times old medium size cars without power steering. Have also had smallish and medium family cars with power steering. The wifes mk1 Jazz is by far the least satisfying to drive. Needs a conscious effort for every turn, whereas seems instinctive with others. On open road often find myself running wide.  Feels very dead. Anything would be better!  A very handy car, easy to enter/exit but steering and rigid ride and obscured visibility spoil.

[culzean]

I have driven and drive in recent times old medium size cars without power steering. Have also had smallish and medium family cars with power steering. The wifes mk1 Jazz is by far the least satisfying to drive. Needs a conscious effort for every turn, whereas seems instinctive with others. On open road often find myself running wide.  Feels very dead. Anything would be better!  A very handy car, easy to enter/exit but steering and rigid ride and obscured visibility spoil.

Everything is a compromise,  MK11 steering and suspension much better than MK1 and still a very good lock for easy parking.  Since women now buy at least as many (if not more small cars) than men I guess that car makers have polled women and found out they like very easy steering,  most women I see like to scrub the tyres by turning the wheel from lock-to-lock while car is stationary rather than doing it while car is moving slowly (turning while moving takes a lot of load off steering mechanism and gives tyres an easier / longer life).   Just imagine having to design a car to please as many people as possible when everyone has different ideas and needs - almost impossible task. 

As a smallish car with lots of usable space inside, decent performance and MPG and very good reliability the Jazz was a new concept way back when it was released in 2002, and still is in a lot of countries the best compromise for a lot of people.