Honda Reliability [*split topic from Corrosion Issues ...again! post*]

[guest1328]

It would be worth having a look at Hyundai as well.   5 years warranty for a start.  Spare / accessory prices reasonable instead of outrageous. 
Honda "City Pack"  that is 4 small carpets and 8 bits of plastic - £500 !!!
Hyundai - Carpets, Mudflaps, Boot protector, Stainless Kick guards. - £127.

My wife has just bought a little i10 as a replacement for her Jazz and it really is rather good. The interior is a bit "cheap", but, with Scrappage, the whole thing (comfort spec.) only cost £6500 brand new.

Also Hyundai could give Honda lessons in how to design decent engines.  Non of the ashmatic gutless  DSI or the silly VTEC nonsense.  Just a sweet, light,16V engine designed for torque and drivability. 

Blows the Jazz into the weeds on performance and response.  Also it steers straight which is a novel experience.   

[nowster]

It would be worth having a look at Hyundai as well.   5 years warranty for a start.  Spare / accessory prices reasonable instead of outrageous.

What's the depreciation like?

My sister got her fingers burned by the rapid depreciation of her Daewoo Matiz. That also had a 5 year warranty.

[guest1328]

According to Parkers  Lowest Depreciation is
Jazz £1379 / Fiat 500 £1460 / Seat Ibiza £1552/ Hyundai i10 £1660.

http://www.parkers.co.uk/News/Motoring-Costs/2010-depreciation-report.

Not a vast difference, except of course the Jazz is far more expensive, so % wise the loss is greater.  On the other hand you have not had to spend it in the first place.

But as I got £2200 off it essentailly means I could sell it in the first 2 years for no loss.

Plus £35 Road Tax and a left foot rest.  And rear seat head rest that slide down into the seat - another annoyance in the Jazz.

I suspect the Daewoo Matiz was a special case a/ it was pretty horrible b/ Daewoo went bust.

Go and have a drive, "my" dealer just handed over the keys and said have fun.

Just make sure you get the 1.2, some earlier 1.1 are being sold "special addition" but they are much weaker and without some "toys".

[culzean]

Just take a look around and see how many older Hyundai. Daweo, Fiat etc you see driving around - in fact if you want to see one over 6 years old your best bet would be to visit you local scrapyard. 

Now see if you can spot loads Honda models even back to 'F' reg and you will soon see that the old adage 'you get what you pay for' is very true.  The problem is most buyers of cheaper cars dump them at the 3 year mark when they start giving problems and the flood the second hand market, further driving down secondhand prices for those models. Even cynical Jeremy Clarkson has been known to say that a Honda car will outlast the universe.
 
And if you think the Jazz i-DSi is 'asthmatic' and the V-TEC is 'silly nonsense' then I have to disagree as I have nothing but praise for the V-TEC cars that I have driven, in fact if Carlsberg built an engine it would have to be based on the superb Honda V-TEC system.  Most people have running problems with the i-DSi because of EGR valve problems, and these are common to all cars.

The quality in a Honda is not at the superficial level of 'nice trim', 'great radio', or 'loads of extras' but is in the engineering, and goes down to the smallest nut and bolt in the car being of high quality. 

Read in forums about the problems people have with 'other cars' before judging Honda too much, modern cars are highly technical pieces of kit, often owned by people who never look under the bonnet and judge them by their paint colour or whether they have alloys or not.

[Geoffers]

Agreed!

[guest1328]

It was precisely because of my perceived view of Honda quality that I found the Jazz so disappointing.

As a long time Honda bike owner - see attached - I expected much more.   Now that had a quality engine!

It does appear to be well made, but these days so are Fords.  Have a look at the newest Fiesta.

However the Jazz had a dreadful ride,  steered most perculiarly and was so gutless even my wife complained!   After a week I went underneath it to see if they had mistakenly left transport packing in the suspension springs.  The first proper Motorway journey at decent pace meant taking up most of a lane. (See other entries o this forum about strange steering).   Yes I took it back twice and yes the Dealer denied ever hearing of any such problems.

The performance problem is essentialy one of throttle response.  I suspect it has been deliberately dampened to match its perceived market.  What then is the point of the cost and complication of VTEC?  Yup I've driven a VTEC Civic, and it is much better, but nothing special by modern standards.

I'll grant the Jazz has improved markedly over 3 years so that the ride is now acceptable and it will cruise happily at 90. (eventually). But even now it is not particularly pleasant.

One thing I did like, and still do, is the shape. Just the right size, clean, elegant and without unnecessary lumps.   Unfortunately Honda then bu**ered that up with the new one!  Making it totally unnecessarily bigger and "styling" it so losing the pure shape. 

Quality?  Maybe, but does that ring true with the Gearbox, wheel bearing, etc etc problems.  Many at relatively low mileage.

Sorry chaps but it cost a fair amount and has been a disappointment from Day 1.

I suspect the quality dividend is becoming a myth.  Honda lowers whilst most others get better. 

Except for the bikes of couse!

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[culzean]

It does appear to be well made, but these days so are Fords.  Have a look at the newest Fiesta.

The new Ford KA and Fiesta are Mazda models with a Ford badge.

Early wheel bearing and gearbox problems seem to be the norm on many makes of car these days if the forums are anything to go by -have a look at Toyota etc forums for wheelbearing and gearbox problems at low mileage.  The problem seems to be that as manufacturers try to get ever lower fuel consumption out of their cars they are lightening the gearbox components, using low viscosity oil and trying to lower rolling resistance by fitting light duty ball bearings to the wheels instead of the tried and tested taper roller bearings, which rarely gave problems.

We have two Jazz GD 1.4SE in the family (Japanese made), both have reached the 70K mark with only one nearside rear wheel bearing replaced at about 40K - non of the gearbox and steering problems reported on this forum, and the tappets have never been adjusted

[Geoffers]

Wheel bearing issues are not new. My first Renault 21 (G reg) had all four bearings replaced twice in the 5 years that I owned it. The second one (K reg, kept for 9 years) was only marginally better!

[guest238]

The new Ford KA and Fiesta are Mazda models with a Ford badge.

Fiesta is indeed but the new KA is based on the Fiat 500 and even made in the same Polish factory.

The problem seems to be that as manufacturers try to get ever lower fuel consumption out of their cars they are lightening the gearbox components, using low viscosity oil and trying to lower rolling resistance by fitting light duty ball bearings to the wheels instead of the tried and tested taper roller bearings, which rarely gave problems.

This makes me wonder about long-term reliability of starter motors with all these start/stop systems being introduced to reduce fuel consumption.

[guest238]

Just take a look around and see how many older Hyundai. Daweo, Fiat etc you see driving around - in fact if you want to see one over 6 years old your best bet would be to visit you local scrapyard.

That's because most older Hyundais disappeared under the radar of the average car buyer due to limited brand recognition and a range of cheap, basic OAP transport like the Accent and Elantra with no redeeming features beyond low price and reliability. I see plenty of later models like the Getz and Santa Fe driving around of over six years of age, cars sold with a five year warranty no less. And if a manufacturer has the confidence to offer a warranty of this length (as Hyundai have since 2002) then that speaks volumes about the faith in the product. Remember that early Hyundais used Mitsubishi engines.

I agree that Chevy-Daewoo are a pile of poo. Fiat? Not great but again, I see plenty of early 2000's Puntos driving around.

Now see if you can spot loads Honda models even back to 'F' reg and you will soon see that the old adage 'you get what you pay for' is very true.

Because those Hondas were usually sold to older private buyers who looked after the car and then pass it on to another like minded individual. A Ford Sierra or Vauxhall Cavailer of similar age probably spent its first few years in the company or rental fleets before being sold at a knock down price for family transport.

[guest221]

Most of you are very, very wrong. Even the cheapest Korean shoebox will last if looked after.

The likes of JD Power survey, etc, are bollocks - there are no bad cars anymore.

[guest221]

It does appear to be well made, but these days so are Fords.  Have a look at the newest Fiesta.

Agreed. Fords are decent cars these days. I owned a Mk1 Focus Zetec for over five years - never missed a beat. Dealers? OK, they can be a bunch of numbskulls, but there is always another one round the corner....

If you don't need the magic seats or extra space, get the Fiesta (ideally a 1.6 Titanium with the Mountune upgrade!)

[guest238]

...get the Fiesta (ideally a 1.6 Titanium with the Mountune upgrade!)

Say what?

Ford Fiesta 1.6 S1600 3dr + £1300 Mountune pack (140bhp, 7.9secs) = £18,017
Renault Clio 200 with the Cup chassis  (198bhp, 6.9secs) = £18,120

A proper hot hatch for £103 more? Money well spent I say.

[RichardA]

/\ Is that the best Ford can come up with as a 'hot hatch'?

I wonder how much of the general consensous of reliability of the different brands is affected by owner demographic. Does the typical Honda and Skoda owner (which admittedly tend to be more "mature") have different expectations then say a Fiat or Citroen owner?

[guest436]

Mum chipped in a 1997 Mazda 626 for a Hyundai i10 on the scrappage scheme. Nice little car, much better on fuel then the 626 and well equipped too.