Author Topic: In a quandary about small cars !  (Read 5455 times)

DaveBerks

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In a quandary about small cars !
« on: January 31, 2019, 12:39:11 PM »
I currently driving a Vauxhall Corsa 1.4 automatic while my Jazz EX 1.3 auto is in for repair...for some reason other drivers like to drive into it when it is stationery !  Tailgating seems to be an everyday occurrence in the South East where everyone is in a hurry and safe gaps between cars are a thing of the past.

What I notice is how comfortable the suspension is in the Vauxhall, riding over bumps and seams, and how planted the car feels on the road and how responsive the engine is compared to the Jazz which makes me feel I'm thrashing it to get anywhere over 20 MPH and crashes over bumps and seams on the normally poor road surfaces we now have to pt up with. I suspect the car is very light in order to save fuel.

The Vauxhall feels like cars used to be. The downside ?.....well according to Honest John's Real MPG survey it delivers only 35 MPG ! Dreadful. The Jazz tells me I get 54 MPG which is fabulous economy for a non hybrid petrol car of this size (small family sized hatchback). The Vauxhall is more cramped in the back and the boot is smaller.  It is also noisier notwithstanding the Jazz's CVT acceleration rasp. However it doesn't resist moving at speed like the Jazz engine and drives like a much bigger and more comfortable car.

I wonder how much difference the bigger 1.5 engine in the Jazz makes and whether Honda have done anything at all to improve the poor ride quality of the Jazz, a real disappointment for a modern car. Did they just forget about the need for comfortable suspension on British roads or just run out of development funds after all the tech input and design and space wizardry on the car ?...and they go on and on and on about its practicality ! Yes we get the message.

andruec

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Re: In a quandary about small cars !
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2019, 01:39:10 PM »
Each successive version of the Jazz has seen improvements. The only model I'd ever accuse of being harsh was my first but that was the CVT-7 Sport so was designed with a stiffer suspension. The Mk3 does take bumps a little better than the Mk2 but both seemed fine to me.

As regards performance you might want to consider this: The car you consider to be more performant is the car with the worst fuel consumption. For all the advances in automotive technology over the decades one fact is inescapable: If you want more get up and go you have to burn more fuel.

As regards the Jazz though, so what if you have to press the accelerator pedal further? That's why it's designed with that throw, that's why the engine has that range of RPMs. You as a driver are being given a choice - saving fuel or moving quickly. The engine in your Jazz will take everything you can throw at it (especially since it's a CVT). When you want to move shove the pedal down. You don't have to shove it to the floor but be sure you poke it enough to get the RPMs above 2,500. That'll move the engine out of Atkinson mode and you should get all the power you're likely to need on the public highway - in my experience more than most drivers use.

(*)In case you haven't found it yet there is a 'notch' at the bottom of the accelerator travel in Mk3 Jazz. Push the pedal past that point and you'll get the benefit of 100bhp pretty damn fast in the CVT ;)
« Last Edit: January 31, 2019, 04:01:32 PM by andruec »

Jocko

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Re: In a quandary about small cars !
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2019, 01:57:41 PM »
I think you will find the Corsa is a much newer design than the Mk 3 Jazz. How do the mileages compare between the two vehicles? Both can have an effect on ride comfort.

Downsizer

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Re: In a quandary about small cars !
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2019, 03:01:42 PM »
The ride comfort may be partly related to tyre size.  The Mk 3 EX has 16" wheels, but I think the 15" wheels give a more comfortable ride because of the greater rubber depth.

Jocko

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Re: In a quandary about small cars !
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2019, 03:09:52 PM »
Even similar sized tyres, of different manufacture, can have different comfort levels.

peteo48

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Re: In a quandary about small cars !
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2019, 03:31:22 PM »
The ride comfort may be partly related to tyre size.  The Mk 3 EX has 16" wheels, but I think the 15" wheels give a more comfortable ride because of the greater rubber depth.

That's a good point. My SE Jazz seems a bit more comfortable than my neighbours EX which has the 16 inch wheels. On the responsiveness issue I do take Dave's point in that it almost goes against the grain these days to push hard on the accelerator. I have found the paddles useful in these circs although I don't use them that often.

The 1.5 does seem more responsive from comments on this forum.

andruec

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Re: In a quandary about small cars !
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2019, 04:00:35 PM »
The ride comfort may be partly related to tyre size.  The Mk 3 EX has 16" wheels, but I think the 15" wheels give a more comfortable ride because of the greater rubber depth.
Good point, I'd forgotten that. I wish Honda didn't bother doing that.

culzean

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Re: In a quandary about small cars !
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2019, 04:23:55 PM »
My wifes MK2 Si had 16" wheels but it now has 15" with slightly narrower and deeper 175/65R15 shoes.  Ride is much nicer and quieter,  and tyres are a lot cheaper and more choice.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

richardfrost

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Re: In a quandary about small cars !
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2019, 04:31:16 PM »
Also, your boy racers will target that Corsa whereas they wouldn't want to be seen dead in a Jazz!

When I was insuring my Jazz for my son (it was his 21st birthday present) I paid £3200 for the car and £1100 for the insurance. If I had wanted to get him a Corsa I would have had to spend £3300 on insurance leaving just £1000 to spend on the car. The difference is boy racer appeal.

culzean

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Re: In a quandary about small cars !
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2019, 05:09:53 PM »
Also, your boy racers will target that Corsa whereas they wouldn't want to be seen dead in a Jazz!

When I was insuring my Jazz for my son (it was his 21st birthday present) I paid £3200 for the car and £1100 for the insurance. If I had wanted to get him a Corsa I would have had to spend £3300 on insurance leaving just £1000 to spend on the car. The difference is boy racer appeal.

That may have been true up until the 1.5 engine appeared, now they will be fair game for boy racer scrotes.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

DaveBerks

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Re: In a quandary about small cars !
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2019, 08:21:51 PM »
Thanks all for your comments.

It's true that the Corsa has 15 inch wheels whereas Jazz EX has 16 inch, but why are the 16 inch wheels thinner (less  contact with the road surface) than the 15 inch ?...is this to save the manufacturer money ? The 16 inch look better since 15s can look lost in the wheel arch. But this gives manufacturers no excuse for poor ride comfort in my opinion. 

The Corsa design goes back to 2010 (the Jazz is 2015) although the Corsa was heavily revised in 2014.

The Jazz CVT engine clearly has hidden potential but my dealer gave me no information about how to drive it creatively. The downside of driving it faster along twisting poor road surfaces is that one can feel thrown around inside the cabin relentlessly. On longer journeys this can be quite tiring. Motorway driving is fine on good surfaces but is certainly a more 'active' experience that on many similar sized cars as soon as you hit a hill. I hope the new model planned for 2020 pays attention to this aspect but clearly there are few Jazz drivers who complain about it, so who knows. I understand the suspension was improved when the revised model came out in 2017 and Marek Drives' review on YouTube says this has solved his criticism of the car's ride quality. I shall be interested to see how the Jazz feels when I get it back. i certainly prefer its futuristic looks and internal space and flexibility.

culzean

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Re: In a quandary about small cars !
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2019, 08:44:23 PM »
Wider tyres are not so good for MPG as narrower ones, also seems that 15" wheels better for MPG than 16".

Like for like tyres the narrower ones will also be quieter.

Narrower tyres also better in snow than wider ones ( still trying to figure out is this also applies to purpose made winter tyres with special tread pattern and softer compound ).

Part of the ride problem on the Jazz is the torsion beam rear suspension,  but this is the reason the car has so much interior space as the torsion beam setup is so much more low profile and compact than other systems..
« Last Edit: January 31, 2019, 08:48:23 PM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

Jocko

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Re: In a quandary about small cars !
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2019, 08:59:58 PM »
the Jazz is 2015
The Mk 3 Jazz actually came out in 2014 so there is not a lot to draw between them.
Seating can also make a car feel it handles smoothly. So many things come into the mix.

andruec

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Re: In a quandary about small cars !
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2019, 09:33:48 PM »
Motorway driving is fine on good surfaces but is certainly a more 'active' experience that on many similar sized cars as soon as you hit a hill.
Your EX has Cruise Control and since you own the CVT version there is no need to do anything on a hill other than maintain your grip on the steering wheel ;)

I have driven hundreds of miles at ~60mph in lane one without touching anything other than the steering wheel. If you want to go faster it does require a bit more input but on the odd occasions when I've wanted to get to my destination faster I haven't noticed myself being at a disadvantage to other road users. Yes you have to press the pedal down..but that's what it's for.

Your comments intrigue me because it might explain why I am so often 'at the head of the pack' despite driving a 1.3 litre Jazz. It's because I use more of the accelerator pedal range. I suppose most of the other motorists - like yourself perhaps - only use the top 10% of travel. Other manufacturers might have tweaked things so that the top 10% gets you power - but then you lose finesse and suffer worse fuel consumption. Honda seem to have stuck with the idea that the further you press the accelerator down the more power you get.

Mind you the switch between Atkinson and Otto cycle modes isn't handled all that well in the earlier versions of the Mk3 but I've learnt how to kick past that point.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2019, 09:38:12 PM by andruec »

peteo48

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Re: In a quandary about small cars !
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2019, 10:09:58 PM »
Interesting post Andruec. I mentioned above about a resistance to opening the throttle and I think I have this to a degree. A few years driving turbo diesels with that effortless low down grunt may have built up that resistance to opening up the throttle a bit more. It may also explain why some motoring journalists compare the Jazz unfavourably to the small turbo boosted petrol engines in many other small cars.

Then there's that Atkinson cycle business which I don't fully understand but is designed to increase fuel economy. Am I right in thinking that a firm press on the accelerator pushes the car through this? Asking for a friend :P

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