Clubjazz - Honda Jazz & HR-V Forums
Honda Jazz Forums => Honda Jazz Mk3 2015 - 2020 => Topic started by: andruec on February 17, 2019, 08:23:56 AM
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I've been looking at replacing my Jazz for a while (my normal cycle is every three to four year). Not particularly seriously but I'd already pencilled in upgrading to the new hybrid version when it finally appears. But last week I looked at the CR-V and just wasn't impressed. If that's their new hybrid technology then they are on to a loser. It is neither as powerful nor as economical as the Toyota RAV4. If that's what's in store for the Jazz then I'm not going to be impressed.
Then there's build quality. Those who know me know that I've had various (albeit minor) issues with my Jazz. None were critical but they all irked and some continue to do so. I've also never felt that the interior design was well thought out, with everything feeling thrown together. And as for the technology side, well Honda just failed miserably there. It works but it's a sad shadow of what it could be.
Whilst perusing the Toyota website I noticed how good their range was (although somewhat more expensive) so decided to visit a dealer. I had a good look at and a test drive of a Corolla hybrid. It was great to see modern technology put to proper use (it has a colour LCD screen for the dashboard) and hey, their CVT implementation is smooth as silk all the time. No need to fight with an Atkinson mode - although ironically that's because they can run their engine in that mode all the time.
But anyway I've put a deposit down so that's the end of my 18 years of being a Honda customer. Poor customer service. Poor design. Poor build quality. And now it seems they can't even come out with a decent engine. Perhaps they should have rebadged Toyota's drive train since they make it available to other manufacturers.
It's been fun and even educational on these forums and I might come back with a road test report in a few weeks (but I won't if I can't avoid gloating :) ). Drive safe everyone.
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All the best mate, hope Toyota works out for you.
Mick.
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Sorry to see you go. Enjoy the new motor.
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Good choice, Corolla is made in UK ( Burnaston ) - when I worked for first tier parts manufacturer Toyota was our largest customer for chassis and body panels, and the engineers at Burnaston were a thoroughly nice professional bunch. Toyota had very high standards and the Corolla has been their biggest selling model ever ( it got changed to Auris for Europe ).
At least you have not been lured to German brand by their slick advertising and legacy build quality and reliability ( I say legacy because, as my brothers found out their cars are no longer well built or reliable, they are back with Japanese cars now).
Enjoy your Corolla, my niece had one for years and never any problem, but was badly advised by her dad to get a Skoda Fabia, she has had nothing but grief with the Fabia and is now looking for another Corolla....
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Stick around to give feedback on the new car. Before I bought my current car I test drove a Yaris Hybrid and was pretty impressed. The ability to glide away in EV mode from a standing start obviates the need for a clunky stop/start system and the CVT is good as well. Didn't go for the Yaris in the end because the Jazz trumps it for the flexibility of it's space and we need this from time to time.
But, at risk of raising an old chestnut, I thought, and still think, the Mk2 Jazz was a more coherent offering to the Mk3 and the interior was much more practical especially in the dashboard area.
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Cars are a compromise, the more you pay the more you expect.(your comment about how much more the Toyota is).
Still your input will be missed.
Happy motoring.
Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk
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I will also be looking at Toyota when I change my Civic after having four Honda cars in the last twenty years, I had a test drive in the MK3 Jazz and was not impressed, I found it noisy and nowhere near as well fitted out and finished as my previous MK2, after reading some of the complaints about the MK3 which admittedly appear to be mostly minor niggles it appears that Honda quality is not what it once was.
My next door neighbour who is quite a car buff has recently purchased a Toyota C-HR after testing a new Civic and reckons there is no comparison, he thinks the Toyota is a far better engine, build and ride I have also tested the new Civic and much prefer my model to the new one, so looks like it may be also be Toyota for me.
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well after having two hondas in the past, a 1.6 se civic and a 1.2 jazz s i will probably be comming back soon after the timing chain and rust issues i have been getting with my 66 plate yaris
you better look on rust issues on toyotas before you jump and my chain is rattling again 10 months after replacement from the dealer so you might be ok....
its a lot of money for a corolla but then the civic is not too far behind and i hate the little tubo engines they use these days
you might be ok being built in the uk as both my hondas were, my yaris was built in france so not so hot
before i change cars i will check if the jazz is now built in japan or china as i dont want a china built car
and as for dealer service, i have had lots of different brands over the years but by far the best has been swansway honda
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But, at risk of raising an old chestnut, I thought, and still think, the Mk2 Jazz was a more coherent offering to the Mk3 and the interior was much more practical especially in the dashboard area.
The Mk2 was great. Part of the problems I have with the Mk3 is that it felt like a step down at least in terms of care and attention. The Mk2 had some great ideas, especially how they fitted out the boot. The Mk3 just gave us a polystyrene filler and flimsy floor. The Corolla is similar in that respect but at least there I don't know what the Auris was like so have nothing to compare it with.
Hopefully there will be no rust issues but I shall keep a close eye on it. I don't know if there's a similarly good Toyota forum as this one yet. You're a great bunch :)
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I wonder why Toyota have gone back to the Corolla label? In terms of market position, the Jazz seems to lie between Yaris/Polo/Corsa/Fiesta and Corolla/Golf/Astra/Focus. When I chose my Jazz's in 2008 and 2016, I compared them with the larger competitors, as the smaller ones had insufficient interior space. In the end the decision was based on price and/or reliability, plus the fact that the Jazz gave me the space I wanted within a 4m overall length, with enough performance for my needs.
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I've been looking at replacing my Jazz for a while (my normal cycle is every three to four year). Not particularly seriously but I'd already pencilled in upgrading to the new hybrid version when it finally appears. But last week I looked at the CR-V and just wasn't impressed. If that's their new hybrid technology then they are on to a loser. It is neither as powerful nor as economical as the Toyota RAV4. If that's what's in store for the Jazz then I'm not going to be impressed.
Then there's build quality. Those who know me know that I've had various (albeit minor) issues with my Jazz. None were critical but they all irked and some continue to do so. I've also never felt that the interior design was well thought out, with everything feeling thrown together. And as for the technology side, well Honda just failed miserably there. It works but it's a sad shadow of what it could be.
Whilst perusing the Toyota website I noticed how good their range was (although somewhat more expensive) so decided to visit a dealer. I had a good look at and a test drive of a Corolla hybrid. It was great to see modern technology put to proper use (it has a colour LCD screen for the dashboard) and hey, their CVT implementation is smooth as silk all the time. No need to fight with an Atkinson mode - although ironically that's because they can run their engine in that mode all the time.
But anyway I've put a deposit down so that's the end of my 18 years of being a Honda customer. Poor customer service. Poor design. Poor build quality. And now it seems they can't even come out with a decent engine. Perhaps they should have rebadged Toyota's drive train since they make it available to other manufacturers.
It's been fun and even educational on these forums and I might come back with a road test report in a few weeks (but I won't if I can't avoid gloating :) ). Drive safe everyone.
Sorry that your leaving,you have provided myself and others I am sure some very useful information and views
Good luck hope you have made the right choice.
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Nothing in the Toyota line-up ticks all the right boxes for me. The saloon cars sit a bit low on the road, the C-HR looks short of interior space (particularly for the rear seat) while the RAV4 is a bit big. However, I agree that Honda is struggling to match the engineering and overall quality.
Getting back to the original point of this thread that the first drive of the hybrid CR-V was disappointing, I wonder how much is due to fundamental hardware issues and how much is due to software and fine tuning of how the engine and motor work together. If it's software then there's the potential to improve (although how much can be tweaked before invalidating the current fuel consumption testing). I find the iMMD concept attractive.
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Getting back to the original point of this thread that the first drive of the hybrid CR-V was disappointing, I wonder how much is due to fundamental hardware issues and how much is due to software and fine tuning of how the engine and motor work together. If it's software then there's the potential to improve (although how much can be tweaked before invalidating the current fuel consumption testing). I find the iMMD concept attractive.
I didn't drive the CR-V, it didn't even make the running because it's thirstier and less powerful than the competition. Significantly so.
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/honda/cr-v/105262/new-honda-cr-v-hybrid-2019-review
"This, Honda says, is a more efficient way of doing things than Toyota’s set-up. But it doesn’t appear that way based on the latest WLTP testing procedures. While the RAV4 is rated at up to 50.4mpg, the CR-V manages just 40.9mpg."
https://www.driving.co.uk/car-reviews/first-drive/2019-honda-cr-v-hybrid-review/
"If you’ve been sensing a “but” coming, well done… the CR-V Hybrid is a bit of a weakling when it comes to towing. Whereas the petrol model can pull up to 2,000kg (braked) and Toyota’s rivalling RAV4 Hybrid can tow up to 1,650kg, Honda’s CR-V hybrid is only rated up to 750kg. "
So Honda's much vaunted return to the hybrid market is less efficient and less powerful than the established competition. Well done Honda, but no thanks.
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I didn't drive the CR-V, it didn't even make the running because it's thirstier and less powerful than the competition. Significantly so.
It will be interesting to see the real life mpg in the hands of normal drivers. The hybrid versions of the C-HR and RAV4 manages about 80% of Toyota's numbers https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/realmpg/toyota/ (https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/realmpg/toyota/) . Not that Honda always manages to get it right: The 1.5L 2017 Civic gives better real life mpg than the 1.0L version https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/realmpg/honda/civic-2017.
I find those reviews fairly positive. Not everyone wants to pull a caravan and less power often means more likely to be economical in real life use.
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We'll miss you!
:'(
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I find the iMMD concept attractive.
Yes - the concept of a petrol-powered car with no variable gearing of any kind is intriguing.
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It will be interesting to see the real life mpg in the hands of normal drivers. The hybrid versions of the C-HR and RAV4 manages about 80% of Toyota's numbers
Whilst I still have my 2005 Jazz (son's girlfriend is using it now) my main car is a 2016 Toyota RAV4 Hybrid. I never pay too much attention to the published MPG figures, but I did notice the overall MPG of the test drive car was 44.5mpg. I asked about the car and it belonged to the Service Manager at the dealership who commuted in it from somewhere in Derbyshire to Huddersfield.
The actual car I bought was a 12 month old Toyota pool car with a similar overall MPG. Looking at the Sat Nav history, it seems it spent its 12,000 mile life on a small number of motorway journeys going from Toyota HQ to various distant dealerships.
Going purely off the car's own readings, I get around 35mpg pootling around my exceptionally hilly town, but closer to 45mpg when doing legal motorway speeds heading off to North Yorkshire to visit the Mother in Law. I have achieved well over 50mpg when really trying on long A Road and motorway style trips.
However, if you feel the need and decide to engage sport mode and floor it away from the lights, when both electric motors kick in alongside the 2.5l petrol engine, it is perfectly possible to achieve consumption in the low teens!
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it is perfectly possible to achieve consumption in the low teens!
Reminds me of my Triumph 2.5 PI. When I sold it I told the guy that I had to be honest and I had achieved 16 mpg with it. He said, "Yes, they can be heavy on fuel". I didn't tell him that 16 mpg was the best I had ever achieved, and that 8 mpg was my usual figure (Injectors were well shot and in need of replacing). I used to swap the spark plugs every day (luckily I had access to a bead blaster to clean them!).
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My 1998 Mark 1 CRV 2.0l petrol used to average 23mpg. Being a company car, I had to put up with that for three years. It was a really nice, spacious car but shockingly thirsty.
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I worked with a guy who had a Mazda RX-8 and I asked him the fuel consumption he said 'about 18mpg', I said 'what about on a good day',, he just laughed and said 'that was a good day'....
( are we wandering off topic again - I do hope so ! )
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I find the iMMD concept attractive.
Yes - the concept of a petrol-powered car with no variable gearing of any kind is intriguing.
That is the way Diesel-Electric trains work, and the newest Royal Navy aircraft carriers ( they decided on Diesel electric with 10,000 mile max range rather than nuclear with 5 million miles range ( like the USA carriers) on basis of cost - talk about spoiling the ship for 1/2d worth of tar ).
The Train engines have to rev their nuts off to pull away under load, the electric traction motor has maximum torque at standstill but also requires maximum power, will make CVT look civilised though..
( although Accord does have battery to help pull away)
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https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/toyota/toyota-corolla-review-worlds-popular-car-back/
A review of new Corolla ( back on topic - whoopee ).
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Some people say that Honda do not have a marketing department - the engineers design and build things and then tell the dealers to sell them....
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Some people say that Honda do not have a marketing department - the engineers design and build things and then tell the dealers to sell them....
What a good idea. Engineers should run the country as well!
I've been looking more closely at the iMMD system, as I assume it will find its way into the next generation Jazz. In the CR-V it combines a large engine (1993cc) with a small battery (1 kWh - only enough for a mile or two). The engine must spent most of its time generating electricity in Atkinson mode, but engaging direct drive to the wheels at higher speeds through its one and only gear. It is elegant engineering, but I'm puzzled about the fuel economy. Andruec quotes 40.9 mpg which is the new WLTP figure shown in the brochure; however, Honest John, who seems very impressed by the car, quotes a WLTP figure of 51 mpg, and a road test figure of 53 mpg. There may be some confusion between the old and new systems. The official 1.3 SE cvt Jazz consumption has fallen from around 57mpg to 48mpg as a result of the change.
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https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/toyota/toyota-corolla-review-worlds-popular-car-back/
A review of new Corolla ( back on topic - whoopee ).
That's the model and colour I have gone for. Gorgeous, ain't she?
it's a bit worrying to read about the software problems though. I seem to remember that being case with another new car I bought :(
My test drive (which lasted nearly an hour) led me to conclude that it was quite a bit quieter than a Jazz, a lot better over bumps (but I do have the low-ish profile tyres on the Jazz) and has quite a bit more poke. It has the same slightly sluggish power pick up that the Jazz has but as a seasoned CVT operator I know to just use a bit of anticipation.
I can't really conclude much about fuel consumption but the demo car was actually a daily driver used by one of the sales staff. When I got in it was saying 51mpg and when I got out 54mpg. For a demo car being driven around by a salesman I'd say that's pretty good. I also wasn't familiar with the roads we drove on so getting 54mpg when I didn't know what was around the next bend is pretty good.
<another rant against motoring journalists>
"Performance isn't too bad, but you find your foot is buried to the floor for much of the time and you need a huge run-up to complete an overtake. "
Um..it's a hybrid and a small family car. Its 0-60 is a tad under 11 seconds. The Jazz 1.3 CVT is a tad over 12 seconds. I've never needed a huge run up to complete an overtake and I don't often have to bury my foot to the floor either (but so what if I do - that's why the pedal moves that far).
And..why in deity's name is his foot buried to the floor 'much of the time'? Was he testing it on a race track? I overtake once or twice a month at most. The rest of the time it isn't worth the risk.
</another rant against motoring journalists>
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<another rant against motoring journalists>
I agree with you. ;D They rarely represent the average person who wants a hassle-free journey and has to pay for their own fuel.
I've found the Honest John long term tests to be more representative of the real world but by their nature they take some months to emerge.
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I've just returned from New Zealand where the holiday included a week of driving a rental Toyota Corolla. It was registered in January 2019, had 3101km on the clock when I started and 4882km when I gave it back. It drove very nicely, as it should with a 2 litre engine https://www.toyota.co.nz/new-car/corolla/corolla-hatch-gx-petrol/?skuCode=COROLLA-MZGX-NM1-040-20#specifications (https://www.toyota.co.nz/new-car/corolla/corolla-hatch-gx-petrol/?skuCode=COROLLA-MZGX-NM1-040-20#specifications) - almost a challenge to keep within the speed limits (any trangression in this respect resulted in a female voice commanding "please obey all traffic regulations"). I managed 54 mpg of mainly out-of-town cruising albeit with a good proportion of hills and bends. The sat-nav annoyed me as it was one of those which uses road name in preference to any road number (which is what is used on signs).
But the real problem was the boot space which the specs say is 208 litres. Half our baggage had to travel on the back seat (having fastened the seat belts to stop a continuous alarm). Why such a small boot? You can see from the attached photo that the boot floor sits on lumps of foam which hold the tools while there's a big gap above the spare wheel. I note that the UK Corolla claims a significantly larger boot capacity. Is there room for a spare wheel or did they put any tools in the spare wheel well. For a vehicle that's as long as my HR-V the internal space was disappointing.
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I am an owner of both brands. I had a new RAV4 in 2000 and only given it away 2 years ago at a very good mechanical conditions.
I had two yaris, now a Verso and hybrid Auris in the family.
Honda is my first purchase and dealer customer service is good so far.
I got rid of my Yaris due to poor Toyota customer service. Both dealer and the manufacturer. Can't trust them!
In terms of reliability, Toyota are good to date with my experience, only if they built in Japan thought. My RAV 4 and Yaris Japanese built was fault free during my ownership. They both covered more than 120k miles. For non Japanese built like the Verso it is terrible. The Auris has small niggles.....the CVT is making cluncky noise sometimes...
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Forgot to mention that the Honda Jazz body paint is much thinner than Toyota...
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Well I finally got to touch my new Toyota today but can't actually drive it away until Monday. I agree that the boot is a bit small for the vehicle but it's large enough for me. The car itself looks gorgeous - a lovely Dark Red. So far I'm not impressed with the ordering process (it was built to order but the dealer had no clue when it would arrive).
Time will tell for the rest though :)
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First impressions:Very, very positive.
She handles well (far better over bumps) and has quite noticeably more poke if you ask for it. Very comfortable to drive and everything feels just that little bit better put together.
Things I like: The electronic handbrake, especially since you can have it come on when you stop and leave the car in D - no more blinding people behind with my lights. The dashboard - a geek's paradise. I broke my own rule and went with built-in sat nav and it shows the next turning in the middle of the dash when you're close (it can also appear on the main screen if you want of course). Otherwise the dash shows whatever you've got as your preference (I went with fuel consumption information). Adaptive cruise control is wonderful.
Things I don't like: Nothing really. I wasn't able to work out how to turn on automatic main beam. It looks like the cruise control switches off every time you stop the engine. So you first have to turn it on then set the speed. View out of the rear window is a bit restrictive. I had to rearrange my garage because although it fits width/length the bonnet is longer so I need to get the car right up to the back wall leaving no room for my shelves in order to clear the support pillars.
Fuel economy:A little disappointing perhaps with a reported 61mpg on a practice run to work and back but it's a new engine and if that figure manages to hold up when doing the journey for real in rush hour that's not bad. My Jazz would probably manage 50mpg doing the same journey at the moment.
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On my RAV4 you push the light stalk forward for main beam, and it is automatic if the lights are already set to automatic. There’s a full beam with an A icon that shows up on the dash, and an additional blue light to show when full beam is actually on. If your lights are on manual then main beam is also on manual. Makes sense really.
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On my RAV4 you push the light stalk forward for main beam, and it is automatic if the lights are already set to automatic. There’s a full beam with an A icon that shows up on the dash, and an additional blue light to show when full beam is actually on. If your lights are on manual then main beam is also on manual. Makes sense really.
The Corolla also has a separate button below the wheel on the parcel shelf. Hopefully it's a simple on/off switch and doesn't turn off every time the engine is turned off.
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Okay so an update. The simple version: I'm still loving the car and consider it a big improvement over the Jazz. But there are of course some niggles:
* Having to switch audio on then select my iPod every time I start the engine is irritating. But at least it doesn't crash and deprive me of music for a couple of minutes like the Jazz did when I first got it :)
* Fuel consumption. It's probably marginally better than my Jazz (currently getting ~55mpg which is my typical summer MPG with the Jazz) but I'm somewhat concerned/intrigued by the dashboard display. I know they are never completely accurate but the Corolla seems to be suspiciously inaccurate. On my long trip to North Wales it showed 70mpg when I arrived. After three days of driving to golf courses and one trip through Snowdonia it was saying 68mpg and it was time to fill up. I calculated it at 58mpg. But hey, that was a different filling station from last time so I gave it the benefit of the doubt. Since then I've filled it up twice more and the figures were (displayed/calculated): 59/54 60/55. So it seems like it's just that inaccurate and makes me wonder how many Toyota Hybrid owners have been duped into thinking it's better than it is.
* Electronic handbrake. I like it a lot. And I like the concept of brake hold (when you come to a halt it holds the car in place). But you have to switch brake hold on every time you start the car (not a bug - the manual specifically mentions that). Oh and to raise an old debate it keeps the brake lights on. So whilst I don't need to keep the foot brake pressed I still have to have the brake lights on unless I take the trouble to switch into Park to activate the parking brake. Which of course I won't.
* The auto wipers are no better than the Jazz.
* Not that it's an issue for me but there is less room in the rear seats. It can take three adults back there but I wouldn't want to drive any great distance with an adult in the back. The legroom is borderline.
But it's a joy to be back driving a 'CVT'(*) that has smooth power delivery. LED headlights are great. It looks gorgeous and has more power on tap. Boot storage is as good as the Jazz and actually better for a set of golf clubs as it can take a driver width-wise.
It's not actually a CVT. It's a complicated system of planetary gears. There's some seriously clever programming under the bonnet :o
http://www.thefullwiki.org/Hybrid_Synergy_Drive#Phases_of_operation
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On my RAV4 you push the light stalk forward for main beam, and it is automatic if the lights are already set to automatic. There’s a full beam with an A icon that shows up on the dash, and an additional blue light to show when full beam is actually on. If your lights are on manual then main beam is also on manual. Makes sense really.
The Corolla also has a separate button below the wheel on the parcel shelf. Hopefully it's a simple on/off switch and doesn't turn off every time the engine is turned off.
This turned out not be an issue. The switch 'stays on' when you turn the engine off and as you say just pushing the light stalk forward activates auto main beam.
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Sounds like a good move on the whole. When one of my elderly dogs eventually 'crosses the rainbow bridge' I will be moving back to a smaller car and the Corolla is on my list, as I do like the Hybrid setup. Seems like your audio unit is a bit more fuss than mine, which just stays on whatever it was set to, and has steering wheel controls to flip between iPod, DAB etc. Thanks for the updates.
By the way, mine is also excessively random at calculating MPG. There's one place I go to with the dogs which is uphill a couple of miles from here. On the trip there it shows 16 to 17 mpg and on the trip back it is always 99.9 mpg as it is nearly all downhill so it spends the journey on electric and recharging the battery.