Clubjazz - Honda Jazz & HR-V Forums
Honda Jazz Forums => Honda Jazz Mk3 2015 - 2020 => Topic started by: Skyrider on June 15, 2018, 11:45:13 AM
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As my car is now well bedded in I was exploring its capabilities yesterday. I have come to the conclusion that the detent near the bottom of the accelerator travel is an economy stop. The CVT has dropped to a suitable ratio before you arrive at the detent and the engine releases more power once you pass the detent. I was in sport mode and this combined with a full application of accelerator travel is not something that would be required on a regular basis. It gives most unlike Jazz performance but produces a big smile!
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Could be. I've also noticed that if you go past the detente by accident then release it the deceleration can be quite violent.
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The effect was quite smooth in my car, this may be the CVT. The extra 30 odd BHP certainly make their presence felt.
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It also acts as an overide for the speed limiters
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I have never used the speed limiters, other than a check to prove they work. I prefer cruise control. I would think that switching the limiter off at a high power output would not be a good idea, particularly in slippery surface conditions. The cruise control overide is smooth in its operation.
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I have never used the speed limiters, other than a check to prove they work. I prefer cruise control. I would think that switching the limiter off at a high power output would not be a good idea, particularly in slippery surface conditions. The cruise control overide is smooth in its operation.
I use them all the time, except when motorway driving, when I use the cruise control. A very quick dap on the throttle will cancel it until the car speed drops below the current limit or another sign is encountered. We have a stretch of road where a 20 limit is set for tracked vehicles (within a 40 limit). That is where I dab the throttle. Works a treat. I think slippery surface conditions would have to be very severe for my little 1.3 to get into any difficultioes.
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Does your quick dab of the throttle include operating the the accelerator detent you describe as an overide? My car would rapidly be at licence thretening speeds with that amount of throttle.
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Does your quick dab of the throttle include operating the the accelerator detent you describe as an overide? My car would rapidly be at licence thretening speeds with that amount of throttle.
Yes it does. I would estimate around 0.25 seconds. I want a car like yours :)
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Does your quick dab of the throttle include operating the the accelerator detent you describe as an overide? My car would rapidly be at licence thretening speeds with that amount of throttle.
Yes it does. I would estimate around 0.25 seconds. I want a car like yours :)
Maybe you should buy a 1.5 Sport CVT then. In my car if you pressed the accelerator in the way you describe the CVT would be in its equivalent of first gear and the engine revs would be north of 6,000 before you hit the detent, let alone full travel. I will leave you to figure out what happens next.
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That is a thing I loved about automatics. There are a set of lights at the start of the M8. I loved getting stopped at the front of the queue. There was always some speedster in lane 2. I would drop out of Drive, and on the green lights I would floor it. The kickdown would operate and I would be off like a scalded cat. It would change up, just before the rev limiter, until such time as I bottled out, fearing licence threatening penalty points.
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Does your quick dab of the throttle include operating the the accelerator detent you describe as an overide? My car would rapidly be at licence thretening speeds with that amount of throttle.
Yes it does. I would estimate around 0.25 seconds. I want a car like yours :)
Maybe you should buy a 1.5 Sport CVT then. In my car if you pressed the accelerator in the way you describe the CVT would be in its equivalent of first gear and the engine revs would be north of 6,000 before you hit the detent, let alone full travel. I will leave you to figure out what happens next.
Well I guess the whole kickdown thing is designed for automatics to do just that. Having not driven one, tbh I don't even know if the speed limited overide works like that on a cvt. I am very impressed that it responds in a split of a second though. Perhaps you could give it a go sometime, I would be interested to know exactly what it does as I am concidering a cvt for my next one. You litterally just dab it to the floor and release it straight away. It will emit a beep. Of course if you drop back within the limit again, it will re-engage.
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Could be. I've also noticed that if you go past the detente by accident then release it the deceleration can be quite violent.
That is in the CVT, pre-facelift version. It's only happened once or twice and may be the result of a rapid 'down/up' on the pedal. Perhaps it has some logic that decides if you let the pedal back up within half a second it should help you back off using engine braking. Either that or it's a bug. It was certainly an unpleasant experience.
It's fine if you just release the pedal after several seconds but an immediate release seems to be violent.
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That is a thing I loved about automatics. There are a set of lights at the start of the M8. I loved getting stopped at the front of the queue. There was always some speedster in lane 2. I would drop out of Drive, and on the green lights I would floor it. The kickdown would operate and I would be off like a scalded cat. It would change up, just before the rev limiter, until such time as I bottled out, fearing licence threatening penalty points.
Unfortunately (or maybe not) the Honda CVT doesn't support fast starts. It's probably trying to protect the belt but even if you immediately floor the accelerator past the detente you're not going to see the revs go any higher than 4,000 until the car has got well underway. You can still out accelerate most drivers simply because most drivers barely nudge the accelerator but you can forget any attempt to 'burn rubber'.
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It's only happened once or twice and may be the result of a rapid 'down/up' on the pedal. Perhaps it has some logic that decides if you let the pedal back up within half a second it should help you back off using engine braking. Either that or it's a bug. It was certainly an unpleasant experience.
It's fine if you just release the pedal after several seconds but an immediate release seems to be violent.
Probably just as belts are positioned for lower gearing.
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That is a thing I loved about automatics. There are a set of lights at the start of the M8. I loved getting stopped at the front of the queue. There was always some speedster in lane 2. I would drop out of Drive, and on the green lights I would floor it. The kickdown would operate and I would be off like a scalded cat. It would change up, just before the rev limiter, until such time as I bottled out, fearing licence threatening penalty points.
Unfortunately (or maybe not) the Honda CVT doesn't support fast starts. It's probably trying to protect the belt but even if you immediately floor the accelerator past the detente you're not going to see the revs go any higher than 4,000 until the car has got well underway. You can still out accelerate most drivers simply because most drivers barely nudge the accelerator but you can forget any attempt to 'burn rubber'.
Mine does not work like that. It is easy to provoke the traction control into action when accelerating on wet roads. Fortunately I was taught accelerator control during my HGV training, don't use more than you need and dont use it if you can see that you will have to slow ahead. Sounds obvious but how many drivers do you see braking hard for a light that has been red for a while or a give way that you could see from way back?
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That is a thing I loved about automatics. There are a set of lights at the start of the M8. I loved getting stopped at the front of the queue. There was always some speedster in lane 2. I would drop out of Drive, and on the green lights I would floor it. The kickdown would operate and I would be off like a scalded cat. It would change up, just before the rev limiter, until such time as I bottled out, fearing licence threatening penalty points.
Unfortunately (or maybe not) the Honda CVT doesn't support fast starts. It's probably trying to protect the belt but even if you immediately floor the accelerator past the detente you're not going to see the revs go any higher than 4,000 until the car has got well underway. You can still out accelerate most drivers simply because most drivers barely nudge the accelerator but you can forget any attempt to 'burn rubber'.
Mine does not work like that. It is easy to provoke the traction control into action when accelerating on wet roads.
Maybe that's a feature of the 1.5? The only time I've ever broken traction when accelerating was on ice and gravel.
Sounds obvious but how many drivers do you see braking hard for a light that has been red for a while or a give way that you could see from way back?
Far too many. Virtually all of them. Unless traffic is really heavy I always try to hang back so that I never actually have to stop. It's even more important to manage that with the idle stop since the last thing you want is to have the engine switch off just as you're trying to get going and I don't want it off for less than three seconds because I believe that's the point when battery recharging costs become less than the idling fuel consumption. When I learnt to drive in the late 80s my driving instructor who was ex-Police told me that brakes are for stopping and correcting your mistakes. I've always attempted to drive without brakes. It's more efficient, kinder to the car(*) and - if you do it right - safer because you need good anticipation and acceleration sense.
(*)I do not mean using the gears to slow the vehicle. That is bad for the transmission. I just mean adjusting the vehicle's speed using only the accelerator pedal. It's more difficult when you have an automatic but the challenge just adds to the fun and encourages you to hang further back and anticipate more.
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I have not found driving brake free more difficult with a CVT. If you release the accelerator pedal at any speed the engine revs drop instantly to 1,200 ish and the car slows gently with engine braking. I can only speak for a 1.5 CVT, I have not driven a 1.3 CVT.
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I have not found driving brake free more difficult with a CVT. If you release the accelerator pedal at any speed the engine revs drop instantly to 1,200 ish and the car slows gently with engine braking. I can only speak for a 1.5 CVT, I have not driven a 1.3 CVT.
That's definitely something new then. The Mk1 would occasionally offer engine braking close to what you can get in a manual but it was random. Most of the time on all the models I've driven (Mk1, Mk2 and Mk3) lifting off doesn't give much more than tyre rolling resistance. In fact both the Mk2 and Mk3 appear to dislike engine braking and on steep downslopes, if you deliberately select a low gear, will continually raise then lower the revs as if trying to relieve the pressure.
My daily commute takes me down a stretch of dual carriageway leading to the M40. It's about 1.5 miles long and around 30 degrees. I typically accelerate to 60 mph then take my foot off the accelerator and I'll usually still be doing over 50mph at the bottom even though it shallows. Then there's Rhuallt Hill on the A55 in North Wales. I'm usually doing 60mph at the top of that and again I lift off, by the time I'm near the bottom the car will be doing 70mph.
No way would either of those happen in a manual car. Not even in a 6th.
There is more engine braking in 'S' mode presumably by design so perhaps 'D' on the sporty model works like 'S' on the standard model. That might be another point in its favour. I've noticed when I drove a courtesy car earlier this year that on the facelifted Jazz if you floor the accelerator it fakes RPM changes. I didn't feel the 'gear changes' so it seemed to be just for show. Not entirely unpleasant but a bit sad that Honda have chosen to fake the effect because presumably so many drivers don't understand CVTs. That was only a 1.3 though as the 1.5 hadn't been launched yet.
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I have not found driving brake free more difficult with a CVT. If you release the accelerator pedal at any speed the engine revs drop instantly to 1,200 ish and the car slows gently with engine braking. I can only speak for a 1.5 CVT, I have not driven a 1.3 CVT.
That's definitely something new then. The Mk1 would occasionally offer engine braking close to what you can get in a manual but it was random. Most of the time on all the models I've driven (Mk1, Mk2 and Mk3) lifting off doesn't give much more than tyre rolling resistance. In fact both the Mk2 and Mk3 appear to dislike engine braking and on steep downslopes, if you deliberately select a low gear, will continually raise then lower the revs as if trying to relieve the pressure.
My daily commute takes me down a stretch of dual carriageway leading to the M40. It's about 1.5 miles long and around 30 degrees. I typically accelerate to 60 mph then take my foot off the accelerator and I'll usually still be doing over 50mph at the bottom even though it shallows. Then there's Rhuallt Hill on the A55 in North Wales. I'm usually doing 60mph at the top of that and again I lift off, by the time I'm near the bottom the car will be doing 70mph.
No way would either of those happen in a manual car. Not even in a 6th.
There is more engine braking in 'S' mode presumably by design so perhaps 'D' on the sporty model works like 'S' on the standard model. That might be another point in its favour. I've noticed when I drove a courtesy car earlier this year that on the facelifted Jazz if you floor the accelerator it fakes RPM changes. I didn't feel the 'gear changes' so it seemed to be just for show. Not entirely unpleasant but a bit sad that Honda have chosen to fake the effect because presumably so many drivers don't understand CVTs. That was only a 1.3 though as the 1.5 hadn't been launched yet.
I would say that my Mk2 CVT is devoid of engine braking and can be relied upon to accelerate well above the set speed going down hill in cruise control.
(I am a total convert to CVT and cannot understand why anyone would ever use anything else).
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I drove proper autos abroad for many years, and my wife had a CVT for about 4 years and engine braking lacking on all of them. Autos are known for being hard on brake pads.
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Before the Jazz I drove automatics for 25 years. Three different cars. The Carlton had a 3 speed , the Cavalier a 4 speed, and the S40 a 5 speed. None of them had engine braking to talk of, even when you selected a lower ratio.
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On thinking about it mine does not slow down going downhill, although I can "change down" with the paddle shifters to slow the car. The CVT feels like decelerating in 6th gear of a MT car if left to sort itself out. I certainly agree that the CVT is the better transmission but bear in mind I have not driven a 1.3 CVT. My opinion may be biased because of the extra power and lack of the Atkinson limitation. I have driven many autos over the years, usually more powerful than the Jazz but the Honda CVT is one of the best I have come across. I think it's torque converter makes a vast difference compared to a dual clutch DCT type, particularly at low speed.
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Oh I do like the CVT (although the handling of the Atkinson cycle on the 1.3 is naff) and there is enough engine braking to avoid the brake pedal most of the time. I was just surprised at your comment that there was plenty of engine braking. It wouldn't surprise me if the 1.5 edition held onto the revs for longer to provide a sporty feel.
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I drove proper autos abroad for many years, and my wife had a CVT for about 4 years and engine braking lacking on all of them. Autos are known for being hard on brake pads.
Yes. I’m noticing that I’m braking way more and harder than I did with my mk1 manual. And I am a proponent of releasing the accelerator well in advance of approaching lights and junctions etc. I think the brakes aren’t going to last long...
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Oh I do like the CVT (although the handling of the Atkinson cycle on the 1.3 is naff) and there is enough engine braking to avoid the brake pedal most of the time. I was just surprised at your comment that there was plenty of engine braking. It wouldn't surprise me if the 1.5 edition held onto the revs for longer to provide a sporty feel.
I would think that my CVT has different programming than the 1.3 even if only because of no Atkinson. It steps off from a standstill quite smartly even in drive and there is a marked difference between drive and sport modes with the engine always running at more revs for a given road speed in sport mode.
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Oh I do like the CVT (although the handling of the Atkinson cycle on the 1.3 is naff) and there is enough engine braking to avoid the brake pedal most of the time. I was just surprised at your comment that there was plenty of engine braking. It wouldn't surprise me if the 1.5 edition held onto the revs for longer to provide a sporty feel.
I would think that my CVT has different programming than the 1.3 even if only because of no Atkinson. It steps off from a standstill quite smartly even in drive and there is a marked difference between drive and sport modes with the engine always running at more revs for a given road speed in sport mode.
On giving it a bit more thought, I suspect that the programming of the Sport CVT is no different than the HRV 1.5 CVT programming. The extra power in effectively the same Jazz bodyshell along with no Atkinson cycle will make a Jazz feel very different. It would make commercial sense for Honda to use any software in as many different models as possible assuming the same engine and CVT.