Author Topic: Jazz 1339cc, IVTEC, 2010 - overheating  (Read 5236 times)

pavkata5

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Re: Jazz 1339cc, IVTEC, 2010 - overheating
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2021, 06:29:08 AM »
I'm not sure which of the two sensor they changed, but the part is "Water Coolant Temperature Sensor" 37870-PLC-004
What would be the part number of the other sensor

culzean

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Re: Jazz 1339cc, IVTEC, 2010 - overheating
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2021, 09:27:36 AM »
Given the history of the EGR in the Jazz, that has to be the favourite. Otherwise perhaps the water pump impeller or pulley spinning on shaft, I have seen this once before.  Then given your list of efforts so far, try Steel Seal as its not expensive and for water jacket into combustion chamber issues it works well. If not cured by the above you are entering onto the world of pain with the head having to come off or even cracked.

The normal problem with EGR ( not only on Honda, but every vehicle they are fitted to ) is that they stay open due to carbon build up and mess up the low end of the rev range ( it is like having an air leak in the inlet manifold ).  Counter-intuitively this seems to happen more on cars that never get revved much and are used for local journies,  probably because the EGR ever hardly gets opened and the shaft gets cruddy so when it does open it refuses to close properly.  As with the notorious DPF on diesels,  motorway miles are the best prevention of problems.

https://www.stoneacre.co.uk/blog/egr-valve
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

sparky Paul

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Re: Jazz 1339cc, IVTEC, 2010 - overheating
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2021, 09:40:02 AM »
It's the same sender fitted in both positions. Honda parts catalogue lists 37870-RWC-A01, see both links below.

Are you sure the correct sender is fitted? Honda do quite often list the same part under several part numbers... However, I have checked 37870RWCA01 and 37870PLC004 with Meyle, Delphi and Febi and they all list different part numbers for these two senders.


Rad sender number 11 here

https://www.parts-honda.uk/honda-cars/JAZZ/2010/14-ES/ELECTRICAL-EQUIPMENTS-EXHAUST-HEATER/RADIATOR-TRAD-/17TF0A01/B__0500/3/22684


Engine sender number 11 here

https://www.parts-honda.uk/honda-cars/JAZZ/2010/14-ES/ENGINE/WATER-PUMP/17TF0A01/E__1500/1/22684
« Last Edit: March 08, 2021, 09:41:38 AM by sparky Paul »

sparky Paul

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Re: Jazz 1339cc, IVTEC, 2010 - overheating
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2021, 10:02:00 AM »
Just to confuse matters even further, Delphi list 37870-PLC-004 as the correct part for the Jazz. How odd, not sure which one to ignore now...


Personally, my first step would be checking that the temperatures from the two senders is sensible in diagnostics, and if you can get hold of one, I would be having a poke around with a infra-red thermometer to see what the coolant temperatures actually are, and how it's flowing when up to temp.

Because the sensors are thermistors, and so a resistance measurement, I would also be checking that all the connections are clean and dry - particularly the one at the bottom of the radiator.

What's your gut feeling, do you actually think it is genuinely over-heating, and not just reporting the wrong temperature? Does the engine bay have that overheating 'smell'? Is the radiator pipework pressurising?
« Last Edit: March 08, 2021, 10:33:52 AM by sparky Paul »

pavkata5

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Re: Jazz 1339cc, IVTEC, 2010 - overheating
« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2021, 01:02:24 PM »
I haven't seen overheated car so don't know. Actually the blinking red lamp is still just before the critical zone.
There is no smell, steam, leaks  or anything under the hood that suggest problem.

I've been told that the rad sensor have been changed, so the one on the engine can still be problematic.

On Wednesday I'm entering official Honda service and will see.

 

culzean

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Re: Jazz 1339cc, IVTEC, 2010 - overheating
« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2021, 01:49:38 PM »
I haven't seen overheated car so don't know. Actually the blinking red lamp is still just before the critical zone.
There is no smell, steam, leaks  or anything under the hood that suggest problem.

I've been told that the rad sensor have been changed, so the one on the engine can still be problematic.

On Wednesday I'm entering official Honda service and will see.

I would assume that the sensor on the engine is a thermistor one, with an output proportional to temperature and the rad one is an on-off 'thermostat' type just to switch fan on at a certain temperature. The engine one will feedback to temp gauge and alarm light.  You will know if engine is overheating, the hoses will be way too hot to touch, and you will probably smell the engine cooking.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

sparky Paul

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Re: Jazz 1339cc, IVTEC, 2010 - overheating
« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2021, 03:59:18 PM »
I would assume that the sensor on the engine is a thermistor one, with an output proportional to temperature and the rad one is an on-off 'thermostat' type just to switch fan on at a certain temperature.

According to the Honda workshop manual, it shows them both as thermistor types, with the ECU switching the fans. Most early Hondas just use a thermostat switch as you say.

Looking again at the Delphi cat, it lists the engine and rad as two different senders - Honda parts catalogue shows the same part number for both. It's a bit confusing, to say the least!

embee

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Re: Jazz 1339cc, IVTEC, 2010 - overheating
« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2021, 12:30:01 AM »
I'm not famliar with the system on this model, but looking at the diagram for the thermostat in the hondaparts link, I take it that the system is a "thermostat on inlet" design.

"Traditional" systems have used a "stat on outlet", i.e. it is at the exit from the engine (cylinder head) and opens to let coolant go TO the rad. These would normally start to open around 88C.

A stat on inlet is sited between the rad bottom hose and the coolant pump inlet, but also uses the by-pass flow mixed with bottom hose flow into the pump inlet as the operating temp control. These are usually around 80-82C, based on a typical 8degC delta-T across a rad. As the engine heats up, the outlet and thus by-pass temp reaches 80C and the stat starts to open to allow coolant IN from the rad bottom hose. This immediately acts on the stat so if it begins to over-cool it will react and close a bit. These systems generally give a much more stable temperature, a stat on outlet has to wait for the cold water to go through the engine and reach the outlet before it can react, leading to significant temperature swings and thermal cycling.

It ought not to be possible but could it have the wrong spec stat fitted, or could it even be fitted the wrong way round?

A others say, open road use doesn't need a fan, that could be a red herring.

The basics to check would be that the coolant system is actually full, that the coolant is circulating (feel hoses as it warms up), and that the rad is clear air-side. Does the rad bottom hose to engine stay cold while the engine warms up and then starts to get warm as the stat begins to open? Stats should normally fail open, so whether inlet or outlet design it should default to full cooling. Very unusual to fail closed (but not impossible).

It's not unknown for impellers to lose vanes but it is new that's extremely unlikely, but feeling hoses as it warms up at ide will let you know if it is circulating.

As suggested, an IR thermometer or a thermocouple on a multimeter would enable you to confirm the apparent temp is actually accurate.

knobbly

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Re: Jazz 1339cc, IVTEC, 2010 - overheating
« Reply #23 on: March 09, 2021, 08:37:16 AM »
You could buy a cheap(£10) digital IR thermometer, and get some indication of the real temperatures of different parts of the engine and cooling system as it could be a sensor issue.  Alternately pre-covid, I could smell a hot engine and that was a cheap diagnosis, perhaps you can too?
As you apparently have changed the water pump, that should be able to be ruled out, so perhaps head gasket leaking combustion gas into the cooling system.  You can get a dye that goes in the cooling water and turns colour when reacting to combustion gasses.  It's not expensive and could point to the head gasket.  Steel Seal among others has some good reports when used on a head gasket with gas, but not oil leaks.

sparky Paul

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Re: Jazz 1339cc, IVTEC, 2010 - overheating
« Reply #24 on: March 09, 2021, 10:14:57 AM »
Not saying it's impossible, but you usually soon know about HGF on these Japanese cooling setups. If the system is pressurising, you normally soon know about because the reservoir bottle is open to atmosphere.

Those digital IR themometers are a godsend, I use mine for all sorts. It would tell you straight away if the sender temperature is correct or not, and if the thermostat is behaving as it should. As embee says, you need to understand what's happening with the flow, if only by feeling the hoses.

olduser1

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Re: Jazz 1339cc, IVTEC, 2010 - overheating
« Reply #25 on: March 09, 2021, 10:44:50 AM »
Remote diagnostics can be tricky, even when I look into neighbours vehicles I listen to the tale then before I open the bonnet ask what's changed before the fault appeared.

madasafish

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Re: Jazz 1339cc, IVTEC, 2010 - overheating
« Reply #26 on: March 09, 2021, 11:16:37 AM »
After I drove through floods the lower air intake for the radiator  (below bumper) was blocked with leaves, mud and grass,

Jazzmeister

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Re: Jazz 1339cc, IVTEC, 2010 - overheating
« Reply #27 on: March 09, 2021, 12:27:34 PM »
If the fan is not switching on when it overheats then there's definitely an issue there.

I would find a way to manually over ride the main fan(not the aircons radiator fan) so it's permanently running and then go drive in the situation where the over heating happens and see if it stays cool.

Also has the thermostat been checked in hot water and when the car overheats are all the cooling hoses hot?
Mk I 2007 Honda Jazz 1.5 CVT | Previous car - Mk II 2012 Honda Jazz 1.3 Cvt

guest4871

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Re: Jazz 1339cc, IVTEC, 2010 - overheating
« Reply #28 on: March 09, 2021, 04:35:28 PM »
@ sparky Paul

you usually soon know about HGF on these Japanese cooling setups. If the system is pressurising, you normally soon know about because the reservoir bottle is open to atmosphere.

Could you please explain this in more detail?

What would you know about?

What is the significance of the reservoir bottle being open to the atmosphere?

Jocko

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Re: Jazz 1339cc, IVTEC, 2010 - overheating
« Reply #29 on: March 09, 2021, 04:51:05 PM »
If the fan is not switching on when it overheats then there's definitely an issue there.
As I said, my fan has never come on, so is this fan correct in not coming on because the temperature sender is saying it is overheating in error. I have never had an engine overheat (not Jazz) without obvious consequences like steam and engine sizzling.

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