Clubjazz - Honda Jazz & HR-V Forums
Other Hondas & General Topics => Off Topic (Non-Honda) => Topic started by: ColinS on March 01, 2019, 01:39:51 PM
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If this doesn't start some debate, I'm not sure what will: https://etsc.eu/intelligent-speed-assistance-isa/ (https://etsc.eu/intelligent-speed-assistance-isa/)
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At face value it would appear to be a good idea, but my sat nav displays the speed limit but is often wrong. It shows 30 on a 60 mph dual carriageway, because there is a 30 mph road running parallel. Honda's idea of using the camera is okay, but it is so easy to defeat. The fly boys will just disregard it anyway. Only the law abiding drivers will find it useful.
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The technology has to get better. The camera system on my Jazz mis-reads the signs too frequently for it to be reliable as a safety system (of course that may also be a fault of the signage). Another issue is that the system doesn't apply the brakes, it simply cuts the throttle; that means anyone following doesn't get the cue of your brake lights to tell him you're slowing down ... and its surprising how quickly you decelerate from 60 if the throttle is suddenly closed ! After a couple of experiments I've not used it again.
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The technology has to get better. The camera system on my Jazz mis-reads the signs too frequently for it to be reliable as a safety system (of course that may also be a fault of the signage). Another issue is that the system doesn't apply the brakes, it simply cuts the throttle; that means anyone following doesn't get the cue of your brake lights to tell him you're slowing down ... and its surprising how quickly you decelerate from 60 if the throttle is suddenly closed ! After a couple of experiments I've not used it again.
This kind of thing is exactly why its all gone quiet on self-driving cars. I read an article about when they had some self-driving vehicles they were showing off in Los Angeles - sure the cars stopped for red lights but it turned out that in that area they had fitted transponders onto the traffic signals to tell the car wirelessly what colour the lights were showing because the vision systems on the vehicles were no-where near good enough.
The reason Uber and Google, waymo and all the others moved their testing from California to Arizona was that the regulations were tightened up in California about notifying the authorities about when the 'safety driver' had to take over control, the authorities in Arizona waived that condition, and a lot of others it seems, also the weather in Arizona is pretty much clear all the time, non of that nasty rain and snow that the sensors can't handle...
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The European Parliament has voted to introduce mandatory speed limiters on all new cars, vans, buses and trucks, sold in the EU from 2022. I wonder if this will mean that HGV's will be limited to 40 mph on single carriageways in Scotland, the current maximum speed limit. That should be fun!
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Limiting all vehicles to 10% above the national speed limit would be easier to implement. Speed limit sign recognition technology works fairly well although the Toyota Corolla I recently drove in New Zealand couldn't figure out the black diagonal stripe on circular white background sign. There will need to a lot of spending on road signs and/or improvement of the mobile data network (and who will pay the usage bill?) if vehicles are always going to have reliable data on the prevailing speed limit. The 20mph when lights are flashing signs outside some schools will also challenge the technology.
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I saw the item on the Beeb Ceefax.
Quote -Campaigners welcomed the move, saying it would save thousands of lives. - unquote.
Absolute BS!
And of course the Beeb had to get a response from a so-called charity, charity?? 'Brake' who call it a "landmark day".
Do these people know how to drive? If you are observant of the conditions you have no need to brake.
The essential point is that the posted speed limit is _not_ a guaranteed safety element.
Exceeding a posted limit is _not_ a guaranteed way to loss of life.
In built-up areas, if vehicles are limited to 30, or the ridiculous 20, that does not make it safer. It's not drivers exceeding the limits there that cause deaths, it's irresponsible, unaware or drunk pedestrians putting themselves in the path of moving vehicles.
On open roads, again, it's down to observation. I know many A-roads with the 60 limit in Scotland that you actually need to be doing around 35-40 to successfully negotiate acute Z-bends.
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I know many A-roads with the 60 limit in Scotland that you actually need to be doing around 35-40 to successfully negotiate acute Z-bends.
I drive them every day!
Initially, bikes won't be part of the legislation, but it is intended to include them, eventually. Can you imagine the outcry that will cause?
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Ahh, there's bikes and 'bikes'.
My foldup fits nicely in my the boot of my newly acquired Jazz, so I look forward to going to my usual places, parking up and going for a leisurely pedal.
I stopped being a born-again hooligan some years ago, thinking back to front-facing cameras :)
Is there going to be a nationwide recall for bicycles to have 20mph limiters put on - think of all those hoohas fed up disturbing pensioners on the pavements or pedestrianised areas and hooning onto the roads.
And bikes, well, at what age does the possible introduction of electronics be viable?
Many many years ago this idea came up. I still think the same now.
If they want it, apply it to _every_ powered vehicle.
That applies of course to those that have certain coloured lights. If they can't get to your accident, burglary or fire in time then too bad.
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Speed limit sign recognition technology works fairly well ...
Sorry John, I would disagree. I've attached some Google shots of locations I pass regularly where my Jazz camera system always gets it wrong. If I'd had the "intelligent" speed limiter engaged each time the consequences would have been interesting. Maybe it'll be better if the system is based on a combination of GPS and a camera, but at present the technology simply isn't good enough.
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The last one is interesting. Assuming the camera was able to read the 20 mph sign, would it set the limiter to 20 regardless of the lights?
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The speed limiters at present obviously cannot read and interpret even clean signs properly, and this obviously depends if signs are correct size, are there any other writing on the signs, is the sign clear against a muddled background, is the lighting good, ( in fact most of the road signs in our area have a good coating of moss and dirt as the council don't bother cleaning them any more, some have tree branches in front of them). They could be linked to GPS but although I update my maps regularly I still come across roads where my satnav speed display ( it has a limit for road and actual car speed displayed, if car speed in red you are exceeding the speed the satnav has in its database for that stretch of road ) does not agree with the actual speed limit signs. I think they would need transponders in speed limit signs that can be interrogated by electronics in the vehicle rather than expecting the vehicle system to pick signs up visually, because as we have seen present visual systems ( including autonomous vehicles ) are not a patch off an attentive humans abilities - and probably never will be.... As I have said before the roads and infrastructure are going to have to change drastically and at great expense to handle autonomous vehicles because expecting their systems to be as good as humans is not going to happen.
My main worry about all this automation is that it makes humans lazy and inattentive, anyone who has ever watched plane crash investigation knows that nowadays pilots only mind the computer that flies the plane, but when sensors or power fail and the autopilot switches itself off the pilots no longer seem to know what to do and often a perfectly airworthy plane crashes...
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I read this as the speed limiter would work on GPS i.e. the limiter would work according to mapped speed limits.
Also there would be an over ride on the accelerator pressure. Also you can switch the system off each time you start the car. It would auto default to "on" when the ignition is turned on, so it would need turning off each time.
The mandatory bit relates to the fitting to the car and comes from UN not EU who will adopt it.
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comes from UN not EU who will adopt it.
Advisory from the UN, but made mandatory by the EU vote.
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The last one is interesting. Assuming the camera was able to read the 20 mph sign, would it set the limiter to 20 regardless of the lights?
The last one is indeed interesting, but not because of the occasional flashing lights. The circular surround to the numeral is not red, which means it’s an advisory speed, not a mandatory limit. The Jazz camera reads it just like any other limit sign.
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I read this as the speed limiter would work on GPS i.e. the limiter would work according to mapped speed limits.
That seems to be the case, but may also use a camera. According to the BBC report (link posted previously seems to have disappeared?):
“Under the ISA system, cars receive information via GPS and a digital map, telling the vehicle what the speed limit is.
This can be combined with a video camera capable of recognising road signs.”
At least there is a recognition that the technology has some way to go yet:
“However, there is concern over whether current technology is sufficiently advanced for the system to work effectively.
In particular, many cars already have a forward-facing camera, but there is a question mark over whether the sign-recognition technology is up to scratch.”
It’ll be interesting to see which positioning system will be used. It may not be coincidental that EU has mandated this at about the same time as EU’s Galileo is coming on line, with its promise of greater position accuracy (allegedly even the open public system is accurate enough to detect which lane a car is in, not just which road it’s on) and independence of the US military system that we all use at present.
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Here is an interesting site about what the EU want to fit and what the industry thinks is workable - this is where fact meets fanciful fiction.
https://www.acea.be/news/article/fact-sheet-cars-and-the-general-safety-regulation-revision
I see the car makers say that speed limit warnings are the best alternative to making drivers aware of speed limits, just as those flashing speed limit signs work very well ( and nobody can claim they are just there to make money out of motorists ), truth is only a small proportion of people mean to speed, often it is just lack of attention and a few MPH over the limit.
I think that interactive direction indicators for Audi and BMW cars are a good idea - if they turn the steering wheel more than a certain amount without indicators being activated they get a shock from steering wheel, and also a device to stop them hogging the outside lane on motorways - after they have been in that lane for more than a mile a loud siren should sound in the car and only be muted when they move lanes.
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It’ll be interesting to see which positioning system will be used. It may not be coincidental that EU has mandated this at about the same time as EU’s Galileo is coming on line, with its promise of greater position accuracy (allegedly even the open public system is accurate enough to detect which lane a car is in, not just which road it’s on) and independence of the US military system that we all use at present.
The interesting thing is that the very heart and brains of the Galileo system - the satellites are built in UK, some peripherals like solar panels supplied by Germany, BAe systems is heavily involved in the launch vehicle ( Ariane rocket) as well.
Britain could easily built its own system as we already built most of it anyway, they reckon about £10billion - well worth it just to p155 the EU off
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interesting, some experts advocate just letting the driver know they are speeding is the least intrusive way, once the vehicle starts taking over and cutting power are various times when it should not ( it can be overridden anyway ) we are getting into autonomous car territory ( although they do tend to accelerate towards stationary objects ). At the moment my Garmin satnav does that - and even the older Honda systems can be programmed to emit a bong or chime at certain speeds ( 30 and 50 seem to be preset ones, I normally end up enabling at least one on my Civic when I re-calibrate the TPMS when changing from winter to summer tyres and back - because it is the first thing on the menu and you have to navigate past it to get to TPMS ). Never have the problem with wifes MK2 because it does not object to change of wheels, but i notice Civic speedometer reads a tad more optimistic with winter tyres on, must be slightly smaller diameter than summers.