Author Topic: Weird steering problem!  (Read 21510 times)

DamFit

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Weird steering problem!
« on: September 05, 2017, 12:17:46 PM »
Hi!

My first post on this forum. (I've already posted about this problem in the US forum fitfreak, but without any luck. Maybe someone in here can help..?

The problem I'm experience goes like this:

Sometimes when i turn the steering wheel it sticks and holds in place for half a second or so before it let's go. The car has been to the dealers workshop for two weeks but the only issue they could point out was that the alternator dropped in current rapidly after half an hour or so. They thought this could be the source to the problem and suggested to change it (for 1500$ here over in Norway!!) I bought an alternator (with very short milage) that had been tested thoroughly and changed it myself and the problem disappeared for some weeks, but now it's slowly coming back and it's getting worse and worse.

I told the Honda dealer and they said that nothing else was wrong with the car neither mechanical moving parts related to steering and suspension or electronically. They simply can't come up with any suggestions on how to fix this and it's really frustrating!

So, my last hope is that someone in here have had the same symptoms and might be able to guide me in the right direction to solve this problem. I've seen one post on this forum that had a similar issue (not exactly though) and it was caused by a bad connection/rust. To me it sounds like it could be a bad connector somewhere too, but the dealer mechanics said they did check all connectors that could affect the EPS. They also said the battery had "good health".

So, some facts about the problem:

1. It happens at low speeds (I think never over 30-40mph). It also happens when the car stands still and it also happens when backing in reverse.

2. It happens most often when i turn the wheel a lot and while the engine is running on low rpm ie. parking the car in in a tight space.

3. The EPS light does not flash when the problem occurs. (It comes on when i start the engine and goes away after three seconds or so)

4. When it happens it does not trigger any audible sound inside or outside the car.

5. When it happens the problem often re-occurs 2-4 times the next 10-20 seconds and then goes away again.

6. When i say "the steering wheel sticks" it feels like it locks or becomes significantly heavier to turn for a very short time.

7. I have a feeling that the problem occurs slightly more often when it rains or in high humidity, but it also happens in dry climates.

8. I did some more testing yesterday and noticed that when turning the steering wheel very quickly it sometimes locked and kind of bounced back again. I.e I turned to the left and when the problem occurred the steering wheel and my hand was pushed an inch or so to the right!

Well, i hope I've described the problem in a understandable way. Please let me know if something is un clear and I'll try to fill in.

Fingers crossed!

guest7024

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Re: Weird steering problem!
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2017, 12:29:34 PM »
Hi!

My first post on this forum. (I've already posted about this problem in the US forum fitfreak, but without any luck. Maybe someone in here can help..?

The problem I'm experience goes like this:

Sometimes when i turn the steering wheel it sticks and holds in place for half a second or so before it let's go. The car has been to the dealers workshop for two weeks but the only issue they could point out was that the alternator dropped in current rapidly after half an hour or so. They thought this could be the source to the problem and suggested to change it (for 1500$ here over in Norway!!) I bought an alternator (with very short milage) that had been tested thoroughly and changed it myself and the problem disappeared for some weeks, but now it's slowly coming back and it's getting worse and worse.

I told the Honda dealer and they said that nothing else was wrong with the car neither mechanical moving parts related to steering and suspension or electronically. They simply can't come up with any suggestions on how to fix this and it's really frustrating!

So, my last hope is that someone in here have had the same symptoms and might be able to guide me in the right direction to solve this problem. I've seen one post on this forum that had a similar issue (not exactly though) and it was caused by a bad connection/rust. To me it sounds like it could be a bad connector somewhere too, but the dealer mechanics said they did check all connectors that could affect the EPS. They also said the battery had "good health".

So, some facts about the problem:

1. It happens at low speeds (I think never over 30-40mph). It also happens when the car stands still and it also happens when backing in reverse.

2. It happens most often when i turn the wheel a lot and while the engine is running on low rpm ie. parking the car in in a tight space.

3. The EPS light does not flash when the problem occurs. (It comes on when i start the engine and goes away after three seconds or so)

4. When it happens it does not trigger any audible sound inside or outside the car.

5. When it happens the problem often re-occurs 2-4 times the next 10-20 seconds and then goes away again.

6. When i say "the steering wheel sticks" it feels like it locks or becomes significantly heavier to turn for a very short time.

7. I have a feeling that the problem occurs slightly more often when it rains or in high humidity, but it also happens in dry climates.

8. I did some more testing yesterday and noticed that when turning the steering wheel very quickly it sometimes locked and kind of bounced back again. I.e I turned to the left and when the problem occurred the steering wheel and my hand was pushed an inch or so to the right!

Well, i hope I've described the problem in a understandable way. Please let me know if something is un clear and I'll try to fill in.

Fingers crossed!
I have found steering does what you have said. Does not center it self  it seems like it the actual steering rack it self they use  I have changed power steering fluid and we greased it helped for while   at higher speed should be OK because front end raises slightly so less pressure and weight on steering

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JohnAlways

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Re: Weird steering problem!
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2017, 12:46:44 PM »
Not sure about Stevec's power steering fluid unless it's a very early Jazz perhaps, but as far as I know they had electric steering racks. I know someone with a Clio that the alternator light came on when steering hard one way or other just after an alternator change. The only thing I can think of is the battery as you say "They also said the battery had good health". remember the green indicator only indicates the condition of the one cell.

Trying to steer with no power steering the Jazz is the same as a truck, so heavy as to be virtually impossible so the electrics are really having to be working hard and I believe it is just the alternator that supplies the umph! As it's intermittent maybe it's something as simple as a slipping belt. Not enough to squeal but enough to drop the current from the alternator to the steering rack,

Sorry I'm raising more questions but everything else seems to have been covered to start with.

Jocko

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Re: Weird steering problem!
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2017, 01:43:18 PM »
Welcome to the forum.
The Jazz has no power steering fluid. The electrical power steering puts a very heavy load on the alternator. The fact that it went away after changing the alternator would tend to make me think the alternator is the problem. Perhaps the "pre-owned" replacement is also starting to give problems.
As regards when you feel the load, these are the times that the steering is ultra heavy without power steering and times that the alternator has to put out the heaviest load.
If your battery is well past its best (contrary to what Honda say) then after starting the alternator will be trying to boost it back up. Add to that the EPS and something has to give.

DamFit

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Re: Weird steering problem!
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2017, 02:35:33 PM »
Great input guys!

This car defiantly has an Electric Power Steering so no fluids (i guess?). I'm not experiencing any problem with self centering either.

When it comes to the alternator it really makes sense what you're saying. The alternator i bought was tested, and the bearings felt smooth and stabil. The one took out of my car felt like it had really worn out bearings. I could move the wheel that has contact to the belt a couple of millimeters back and forth and sideways too.
Could be that the one i replaced it with wasn't as good as the seller said. (I'm hoping i don't have to deal with that bottom bolt on the alternator again, but maybe i have..?!)

I feel like the suggestion about the belt slipping could make sense. This theory could also be supported by the fact that the problem occurs more frequently in humid/rainy weather right..?

So, I guess i have to do some more testing.
Any suggestion on how to proceed?

1. Do you think it would be possible to actually see the belt slipping if i'm in the car trying to force the problem to occur, while my friends films the belt..?

2. Is there any volt measurements that can be done to investigate further?



culzean

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Re: Weird steering problem!
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2017, 02:42:52 PM »
If your battery is well past its best (contrary to what Honda say) then after starting the alternator will be trying to boost it back up. Add to that the EPS and something has to give.

+10

The battery is there to level out the load on the alternator in times of high power requirements (like power steering) I agree that battery is next port of call.

You can check the alternator by checking voltage on the battery at about 2000 rpm,  should be around the 14.3 to 14.5 volt area  (if it is below about 13.8 you have a problem), also let the battery stand for an hour after the engine has stopped and it should drop to about 12.4 to 12.6 volts.

If you don't know the age of the battery that is a problem, because batteries lose capacity over time and if it is over 5 years old it is normally due to retire gracefully and be replaced by a younger model (preferably a Yuasa,  buy a Yuasa silver if you can get one,  but even a standard Yuasa is better than most other batteries you can buy).
« Last Edit: September 05, 2017, 02:47:38 PM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

DamFit

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Re: Weird steering problem!
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2017, 02:48:05 PM »
Ok, again thanks for helping me!

The battery this one: https://www.mekonomen.no/Document/Image?fileName=20%5c20-S4018%5c12.jpg&size=product
and it's almost 1,5 years old. It has quite a lot of milage though!

Will do some measurements and post back soon:)

DamFit

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Re: Weird steering problem!
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2017, 04:57:32 PM »
Did some testing and the results looks ok to me.

Battery measured 12.6V (Car not been used for 6 hours)

During idle it measured 14.4 and when turning AC and turning the wheels it measured +/- 0.1V

Serpentine belt also feels tight and looks ok.

Any other thoughts?


guest7140

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Re: Weird steering problem!
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2017, 08:42:49 AM »
Hi,
The symptom itself (steering wheel stuck for a second) is most probably caused by the EPS ecu, which temporarily goes to a fail-safe state and restarts itself. Normally, upon a power shortage, you would more likely feel the steering support goes lower and lower before it cuts out completely - but i am talking about EPS systems in general, i am not familiar with this particular model. Maybe it ts too old and simple for that.

Like the others said, it can be some power supply related problem, but it must be some kind that it shuts down the system immediately. The fact the EPS light does not lit up also assumes that the ecu does not have time to show error indication, but it restarts itself immediately and then it thinks that everything is recovered.

Normally the symptom could be also caused by the overheating of the steering system, but since you said it is gone after 2-4 times, it makes it less probable.


So, first of all, I recommend to check and clean the electrical connection of the ecu, as it really needs tons of power ( > 100A ) when you are steering a standing vehicle. It is sealed well and it is unlikely to corrode, but you never know...
And, i would really try another battery, even if it looks fine otherwise. Maybe a borrowed one.

If it not helps, and you want to start debugging it, it would be great if you could measure the voltage and/or the power consumption during the occurrence of the fault. Unfortunately, you will need some fast measurement solution, like an oscilloscope. You can use special insulation-piercing probes for simplicity. Then, you can see then how much does the battery voltage drop at the ecu (during steering), and see if it drops lower when the fault occurs. If the voltage considerably drops, it indicates some external problem: cables, connectors, or battery (to rule out the problem with the battery, you can paralelly check the voltage on the battery and near the ecu).  If the voltage looks fine, it is unfortunately some internal ecu error. You can try to disassemble it and re-solder what you can, but it is more likely you will need to replace it.

guest5079

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Re: Weird steering problem!
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2017, 02:47:27 PM »
The battery on a Jazz, is what I refer to as my torch battery. I know many suggestions have been raised and they all of course have merit, however my own experience with a Honda battery would suggest unless it is new beware.
Mine was tested by a main dealer as part of a service. Given a clean bill of health. Working on the car with a door open nothing else for an hour, flat battery. The interior light had drained it.
I bought a new battery for safety sake. The little bubble told me the battery was OK so given the dealer giving it the thumbs up and the little green bubble as well and yet an interior light flattened the battery.
As has been suggested, if you can, try another battery, but given you live in Norway unless you are very sure of the battery, replace it. Your Winter will soon show up a weak battery and it might clear up your problem  BUT nothing is ever definite. Good luck. Here in the UK I notice steering parts are relatively cheap so if the worse comes to the worse a new ( S/H ) ECU might be  a good investment.

DamFit

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Re: Weird steering problem!
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2017, 09:14:26 AM »
Hi again!
A short update from me:

I dismounted the battery and managed to access the ESP engine and it's connectors. It turned out that they where full of dust (even inside the connectors). The ground connector was very loos and rusty as well. I cleaned the cables and tightened the ground connector and mounted the battery back on. And guess what? Problem gone!

For 1,5 weeks it has been working perfectly smooth without any dropouts, BUT:

Last weekend when I started the engine the EPS light came on and there was no power steering at all. Close to impossible to turn the wheels when standing still and very heavy at low speeds. The problem has been like this since then.

Any suggestions what might have happened? I havn't had time to check the connectors again. Will do so later today. I used a OBD scanner, but no error codes that I could find. Any suggestions are highly appreciated!

Jocko

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Re: Weird steering problem!
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2017, 10:34:22 AM »
Have you checked the fuse? On my GD5, f2 is for the power steering.

DamFit

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Re: Weird steering problem!
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2017, 10:57:23 AM »
Yes, I checked the 40A fuse on the right side of the engine. Looks good. According to my manual there are no other fuses directly related to the power steering. However I'm planning to take out every fuse and inspect it later today just to be sure:)

guest7140

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Re: Weird steering problem!
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2017, 02:34:54 PM »
Any suggestions what might have happened? I haven't had time to check the connectors again. Will do so later today. I used a OBD scanner, but no error codes that I could find. Any suggestions are highly appreciated!

Yes, simple OBD scanners only shows faults that lit the check engine lamp. To read out eps, abs, etc fault codes you need some equipment that communicates with those ecus. Either a honda factory stuff, or some handmade one, if you are familiar with its comm protocol.
Without that, I'm afraid, you can only do the electrical connection checks, or the ecu replacement... or maybe the blind re-soldering.
If you check the voltage of the connector (while disconnected) you can also see if the fuse is ok or not.

ps. thinking about it, even if you had the eps fault code, you cannot really do anything more....

DamFit

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Re: Weird steering problem!
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2017, 03:54:17 PM »
OK, I'll try to do some voltage measurements now. I'm not very familiar with 12V, but I'll search and see if i can find some guides.

BTW: Anyone knows if this works on a Jazz? http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/mechanical-problems-technical-chat/229514-eps-reset.html

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