Clubjazz - Honda Jazz & HR-V Forums

Honda Jazz Forums => Honda Jazz Mk2 2008-2015 => Topic started by: smilertoo on November 10, 2018, 08:16:22 PM

Title: Upgrading Honda
Post by: smilertoo on November 10, 2018, 08:16:22 PM
Hi,

I currently drive a 2004 honda jazz that does about 40mpg (no AC etc.), I'm thinking of upgrading for better comfort and speed without reducing MPG. I'm thinking between a mk2 honda jazz or a Honda Civic. Should i expect a 1.4l 2010 jazz to improve on 40mpg whilst being a better drive or just bite the bullet and move to a Civic.

Thanks
Title: Re: Upgrading Honda
Post by: culzean on November 10, 2018, 08:42:00 PM
Hi,

I currently drive a 2004 honda jazz that does about 40mpg (no AC etc.), I'm thinking of upgrading for better comfort and speed without reducing MPG. I'm thinking between a mk2 honda jazz or a Honda Civic. Should i expect a 1.4l 2010 jazz to improve on 40mpg whilst being a better drive or just bite the bullet and move to a Civic.

Thanks

If you are only getting 40mpg from a MK1 I doubt you will do much better from a MK2 ( Jocko drives a MK1 and is famous for his good MPG) - added to which you will get the IVTEC which is pretty gutless below 2500 / 3000 revs.   Definitely you will get less MPG from Civic than Jazz.   If you are intent on changing have as long test drive as possible in a MK2 before you change,  my wife ( and myself) think the best Jazz would be a i-DSi ( MK1 ) engine in a MK2 body - the i-DSi is much more pleasant an engine to drive in urban areas ( which is probably 90% of the time most people drive) and MK1 and MK2 pull the same revs at 70 on the motorway.  The extra 'performance' of the VTEC is out of the normal rev range most people use, the I-dsi engine is much more tractable in normal driving, like a small diesel.
Title: Re: Upgrading Honda
Post by: John Ratsey on November 10, 2018, 08:49:45 PM
In addition to the mpg discussion in this forum https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=7489.0 (https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=7489.0), Honest John'r RealMPG website https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/realmpg/honda/ (https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/realmpg/honda/) is a valuable resource. A Mk 2 Jazz may only give a modest improvement on the Mk 1 but a Civic is unlikely to be better unless you opt for diesel and, in return, you lose your Tardis. If you are only getting 40 mpg then I deduce that you do a significant proportion of short distance and/or stop/start motoring. For this situation a Mk 2 Jazz hybrid (which arrived in 2011) might be a worthwhile investment. There are 24 listed on Honda UK's website https://usedcars.honda.co.uk/en/used-cars/approved-cars/honda/jazz-hybrid?currency=GBP&lat=51.511531829834&lon=-0.1952899992466&manufacturer=21&warrantyProgram=22&model=2139&zip=W1A&radius=805&mkey=46-500009-267954&max=12&view=list&sort=price%3AASC#result-tools-top (https://usedcars.honda.co.uk/en/used-cars/approved-cars/honda/jazz-hybrid?currency=GBP&lat=51.511531829834&lon=-0.1952899992466&manufacturer=21&warrantyProgram=22&model=2139&zip=W1A&radius=805&mkey=46-500009-267954&max=12&view=list&sort=price%3AASC#result-tools-top). But your first might want to read through the recent discussion here https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=181.0 (https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=181.0) as you might get some tips for improving your mpg.
Title: Re: Upgrading Honda
Post by: bill ericay on November 10, 2018, 10:15:56 PM
 I managed to average 53mpg over the 3 years I had my mk2 Jazz 1.4.

I have had my 9th Gen Civic !.8 petrol fro 2 1/2 years and averaged 42mpg.( I record miles and gallons and work it out).

However, I don't do short journeys in the car if I can help it- that's what my bike is for, and any town driving burns up a lot more petrol.

The 8th and 9th  generation Civics are a bigger Tardis than the Jazz-- honest !
Title: Re: Upgrading Honda
Post by: coffeecup on November 11, 2018, 09:05:06 AM
However, you will be sitting on the floor in the civic !!!
Title: Re: Upgrading Honda
Post by: culzean on November 11, 2018, 09:53:36 AM
However, you will be sitting on the floor in the civic !!!

That is correct, the Civic is harder for a lot of older people to get in and out of - I am OK with it but my wife and her family would much rather travel in the Jazz, the seats are higher and view from rear is better.  The Civic is quite dark in the rear seats and the rear door windows are smaller - it does have rear centre armrest though.  Civic also difficult to park without rear parking sensors because of the restricted rear view ( large 'C ' pillars ) - I quite like the rear spoiler as it keeps headlights and over-bright DRL out of your rear mirror.   The cabin / dashboard in the Civic are much better though, nicely placed sensibly sized knobs - not the fiddly little controls you get in Jazz - the headlight lower / raise leveling knob is a nice sizeable rotary one not the tiny sliding one in the Jazz, and the heating / aircon controls  are better placed and easier to use. 

We generally get the same as bill ericay in normal mix of everyday driving - near 50mpg for Jazz and around 40 for Civic ( can get more but has to be on a run or trying for mpg, it is easier to improve mpg in Jazz though).  Just be aware that moving from a MK1 to MK2 Jazz you will definitely notice the VTEC in MK2 has the power to embarrass you if you try to do a rolling second gear pull away on an island or change up too soon due to lack of grunt below 3000revs, you will also need to have better clutch control in the MK2 ( ie be prepared to use more revs to pull away),  I cannot remember ever stalling a MK1,  wish the same could be said about my wifes MK2 ( and she was a lot happier with MK1 engine as well,  although the rest of the car is better (except boot seems smaller) and steering/ suspension / ride is improvement ).

If your present Jazz has drums on the rear be prepared for more problems / work on the Jazz rear discs,  my wifes is on its 3rd set of discs and pads ( pads last longer than discs but always fit new pads with new discs, should not be like that) - never had a problem or replaced anything on our earlier Jazzes with rear drums.  The first two sets of rear discs were genuine Honda,  but for last change I just fitted el cheapo discs and pads from eurocarparts ( Eicher ) mainly because the rear brakes do nothing anyway (except rust away) the eicher ones seem to be staying shinier than the Honda ones though.
Title: Re: Upgrading Honda
Post by: Hobo on November 11, 2018, 02:03:25 PM
I moved from a MK2 Jazz to a 15 plate Civic and have no regrets, as far as I am concerned there is really no comparison, I find the Civic a far more comfortable, quieter ride and obviously far more power from the 1.8 engine it is more of a drivers car especially on longer journeys, on a recent 800+ round trip I averaged 44 MPG using cruise control when possible, although I had no problems or anything negative to say about the Jazz which I had from new I would not consider going back to a Jazz after owning the Civic.
Title: Re: Upgrading Honda
Post by: peteo48 on November 11, 2018, 02:26:30 PM
Interesting take Hobo.

The Civic is a more powerful car and the latest ones have lots of toys. I'd probably still have a Civic (I'm low mileage so mpg a minor issue) but I find the Jazz suits my particular range of muscular/skeletal issues much better. I could never get the under thigh support quite right in the Civic - the sit up and beg position of the Jazz suits me much better.

If I needed a bigger car (unlikely at my stage of life) I'd be looking at a crossover type vehicle. I'm done with low down driving positions. HRV or CRV would be where I'd be looking.
Title: Re: Upgrading Honda
Post by: smilertoo on November 11, 2018, 04:37:09 PM
Thanks for the info, if the civic is that much lower it's no good.
Title: Re: Upgrading Honda
Post by: nigelr on November 11, 2018, 05:00:25 PM
I've had a Honda Jazz Mk1 and Mk2, and there isn't a whole lot of difference in the MPG, driven in the same places in the same way. I've averaged upper 45-53 MPG, depending on the season. As others have said it depends on the sort of journeys you make. I've driven a Civic but I prefer the versatility, visibility and ease of parking with the Jazz.
Title: Re: Upgrading Honda
Post by: Kenneve on November 11, 2018, 05:47:12 PM
I'm now on my third Jazz, having started with a 2010 I-shift, followed by a 2013 CVT and now a 2016 CVT.

Yesterday I did my usual trip from the West Midlands up to North Lincolnshire, a round trip of 250 miles of mostly motorway driving.
Going up there, keeping the speed to 60mph max, the readout showed 68.2mpg and the return was 58.6mpg, which was down to a headwind. Even allowing for the optimistic readout, I guess the average must be around 60mpg, which I am more than happy with.

I guess those that comment about the Ivtec lack of guts at low revs, are mostly driving a manual gearbox car.
With the CVT, the situation does not arise, you simply plant your right foot, the revs rise and you Go!
Certainly for me, I have not found the performance to be lacking in any way.
Title: Re: Upgrading Honda
Post by: coffeecup on November 11, 2018, 08:14:29 PM
Yes you plant your foot, but the rev's lag behind along with the pull, mother in law has a cvt, but just not the same instant response as the i-shift on paddles. In auto it's dreadful.
Title: Re: Upgrading Honda
Post by: peteo48 on November 11, 2018, 08:26:11 PM
Yes you plant your foot, but the rev's lag behind along with the pull, mother in law has a cvt, but just not the same instant response as the i-shift on paddles. In auto it's dreadful.

I think I can agree with that to a point. I do use "S" mode or the paddles if I want to get a shift on. There is lag when you plant your foot.
Title: Re: Upgrading Honda
Post by: smilertoo on November 11, 2018, 09:44:47 PM
so despite the mk2 1.4l having more horsepower it will seem slower than my mk1 1.3l iDSI unless i rev it up?
Title: Re: Upgrading Honda
Post by: culzean on November 11, 2018, 10:26:52 PM
so despite the mk2 1.4l having more horsepower it will seem slower than my mk1 1.3l iDSI unless i rev it up?

It is a bit like a diesel and a petrol car, even if the petrol car has more power the diesel will feel ' more powerful' because its grunt is low down the rev range ( and it rapidly runs out of puff over 4000) - the idsi 8 valve engine in MK1 is a bit more 'diesel like' than the VTEC with more pull lower down and runs out of puff about 4500, but IMHO the idsi engine is more suited to the Jazz as mainly an urban or city car.  As I said earlier, you need a decent test drive of a MK2 and concentrate on the engine and see how you like it.
Title: Re: Upgrading Honda
Post by: Kenneve on November 12, 2018, 09:58:16 AM
Yes you plant your foot, but the rev's lag behind along with the pull, mother in law has a cvt, but just not the same instant response as the i-shift on paddles. In auto it's dreadful.
I think you and I are driving different cars, there is certainly no lag when I need to jump into a gap in the traffic.

Don't get me started on the dreaded I-Shift, where there certainly was a lag, particularly halfway across a junction, while it thought about changing from from 1st to 2nd gear. That was not fun when the there was a HGV speeding towards you!!

In my view the I-Shift is/was not an automatic gearbox, it was just Honda's poor attempt at automating a standard manual box, yes one could use the paddles, which did improve things slightly, but when I changed to CVT, I was much happier.
Title: Re: Upgrading Honda
Post by: madasafish on November 12, 2018, 11:26:40 AM
My 2012 CVT 1.4 averages 42.5mpg - over 6 years... (Fuelly). Lots of country roads, hills, passing places and town driving. When cold and out of our house I can drive uphill for 1 mile and average 14mpg...

Long runs about 53mpg at 70mph..

Son has just bought a 2012 Civic 1.8ES... quite liked it .. Easy to get in and out but I do yoga so body contortions are easy...even at 71..
Title: Re: Upgrading Honda
Post by: smilertoo on November 13, 2018, 02:59:43 PM
I can't believe no-one mentioned one of the best new features, the mk2 has space for your foot next to the clutch pedal.
Title: Re: Upgrading Honda
Post by: culzean on November 13, 2018, 05:04:15 PM
I can't believe no-one mentioned one of the best new features, the mk2 has space for your foot next to the clutch pedal.

The Civic has a proper dimpled rubber footrest at almost same level as clutch pedal, on longer motorway journeys I like the Civic because of that.  The space in the mk2 is at floor level so not ideal, but still nice to have.
Title: Re: Upgrading Honda
Post by: nigelr on November 17, 2018, 11:23:38 AM
@smilertoo - I've noticed the same thing; I have a Mk2 and it seems more sluggish than my Mk1 2006 CVT, but I think that's because the power is in the upper rev range (over 4000 RPM) where I'm never likely to go for longer than a few seconds. It's tuned for economy, and it works (for me). The flipside is that it's pretty noisy at motorway speeds, but I still think for reliability the old VTEC can't be beaten.

PS quite right, the Mk2 is a well thought out car for driver comfort. I have no problems going long distances in it.
Title: Re: Upgrading Honda
Post by: guest5565 on December 03, 2018, 06:59:03 PM
Hi smilertoo

I too changed from a MK1 to Mk2, and it's totally different, powerband is different especially going up hill. In the Jazz MK1, I could use 4th gear at 40mph to go up this long steep hill near where I work, but in the MK2 1.4 iVtec, I kept having to use 3rd gear and even that felt sluggish.

The Civic is a very good car, although the sloping windscreen means that you don't get the same height as you would in the Jazz, plus the Civic in the back feel less airy and light, unless you get the panoramic sunroof.

I personally swapped my Jazz MK2 manual after 6 months of getting it, just couldn't get used to engine, plus every couple of seconds the A/C would kick in and during night time, the headlight would flicker from bright to dim. At 70mph then engine is reving around 3500rpm which is quite noisy.

Luckily, I managed to swap it for a Jazz MK2 CVT facelifted post 2012 model, and have been happy ever since.

The engine feels just like the old I-Dsi, as the the CVT likes to keep it around the 2000-2500rpm mark when you put your foot down, which is where the Jazz MK1 i-dsi torque range was, plus when going up steep hill, I have the option of S mode which is even better, and puts a smile on my face. During motorway @ 70mph the engine is nice and quite, relaxing, purring around 2000-2500rpm.

Oh and like others have mention, when you put your foot down, it really goes like a train, albeit the cvt will make a racket, but once up to speed it quietens down again. I personally think that the Jazz CVT is the bridge between those that like the i-dsi lower torque range, but also want the iVtec extra horsepower.