Clubjazz - Honda Jazz & HR-V Forums
Honda Jazz Forums => Honda Jazz Mk3 2015 - 2020 => Topic started by: orcadian on August 09, 2019, 07:58:21 PM
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Still enjoying our Jazz and have put about 4000 miles on so far. One rather annoying aspect is this collision avoidance system. We live in Orkney and there are very good roads, some quite straight for a good distance with single carriageway national speed limit. If the straight part happens to have a left hander at the end, then traffic coming towards you is at one point directly in front of you, albeit on the other side of the road. This system sees that as a threat and a very brief message flashes up accompanied by a warning beep. It forces you to take your eyes off the road momentarily to see what’s gone wrong! I defy anyone to ignore it - it’s a bit like telling people they shouldn’t brake for animals.
Ian
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Can you not reduce the sensitivity?
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Might be possible but couldn’t find it in the 500 plus pages of the handbook!
Thanks,
Ian
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Might be possible but couldn’t find it in the 500 plus pages of the handbook!
Thanks,
Ian
Page 132. There are some screenshots of the settings on page 2 in this thread on a different subject:
https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=11362.15 (https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=11362.15)
I noticed what you describe in the first week of ownership but has only happened a very few times in 45000 miles.
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I don’t see it as a problem if mine goes off ( which isn’t that often, can count on one hand how many times in 12000 miles) when it does beep I can usually see why so I don’t have to take my eyes off the road. I’ve never adjusted the sensitivity so I assume it’s set on medium.
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My brother has a Suzuki Grand Vitara AWD with brake assist radar ( amongst other things ) - it has been an embarrassment sometimes on narrow roads by applying the brakes because it is picking up on hedges etc, especially when going past other vehicles and on tight bends. Now the first thing he does when he gets in the car is disables every auto function that can be disabled. Every time the ignition goes off and on again of course they reset to 'on' - but it is like a pre-flight checklist to turn them off again....
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If the straight part happens to have a left hander at the end, then traffic coming towards you is at one point directly in front of you, albeit on the other side of the road. This system sees that as a threat ...
I've found three distinct circumstances where this system sounds off unhelpfully:
1. A left-hander with oncoming traffic (as you describe)
2. A right-hander with a vehicle parked on the left (eg in a lay-by, there's a location near me where the road geometry is just right)
3. When moving up to an overtake position (the car just sees the distance closing without noticing you're actually moving out at the same time)
My concern is not that it sounds off, although it's more worrying to any passengers than to the driver (who can see why it's sounding), but that if it does it too often you just ignore it ... which could get embarassing eventually !
My brother has a Suzuki Grand Vitara AWD with brake assist radar ( amongst other things ) - it has been an embarrassment sometimes on narrow roads by applying the brakes because it is picking up on hedges etc, especially when going past other vehicles and on tight bends.
The Jazz also has City-Brake Assist which will stop the car automatically if necessary, but only from low speed. The OP is commenting on the separate Forward Collision Warning system, which does not apply the brakes. I have never had the City-Brake Assist activating in the circumstances you describe, although the lane departure warning or the parking sensors can sound off in tight spaces (depending on speed).
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If the straight part happens to have a left hander at the end, then traffic coming towards you is at one point directly in front of you, albeit on the other side of the road. This system sees that as a threat ...
I've found three distinct circumstances where this system sounds off unhelpfully:
1. A left-hander with oncoming traffic (as you describe)
2. A right-hander with a vehicle parked on the left (eg in a lay-by, there's a location near me where the road geometry is just right)
3. When moving up to an overtake position (the car just sees the distance closing without noticing you're actually moving out at the same time)
My concern is not that it sounds off, although it's more worrying to any passengers than to the driver (who can see why it's sounding), but that if it does it too often you just ignore it ... which could get embarassing eventually !
My brother has a Suzuki Grand Vitara AWD with brake assist radar ( amongst other things ) - it has been an embarrassment sometimes on narrow roads by applying the brakes because it is picking up on hedges etc, especially when going past other vehicles and on tight bends.
The Jazz also has City-Brake Assist which will stop the car automatically if necessary, but only from low speed. The OP is commenting on the separate Forward Collision Warning system, which does not apply the brakes. I have never had the City-Brake Assist activating in the circumstances you describe, although the lane departure warning or the parking sensors can sound off in tight spaces (depending on speed).
This is the Suzuki system, it can initiate braking at much higher speeds and longer distances....
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3. When moving up to an overtake position (the car just sees the distance closing without noticing you're actually moving out at the same time)
This is the Suzuki system, it can initiate braking at much higher speeds and longer distances....
Mercedes also have this. The effect ColinB talks about is compounded by it applying brakes.
Back to the original post though, I personally can't see how to adopt this any better without making it overly complicated and consequently more prone to false positives. Some Autonomous Vehicle designer out there must be confident!
BTW I also brake for animals :o
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Some Autonomous Vehicle designer out there must be confident!
Aha, have you noticed after all the hi-fives and hype of a few years ago it has all gone quiet on the AV front ? They are realising the hard way how difficult it is to replace human senses ( if humans can only be persuaded to pay attention ). The foibles and failings of the 'assist' functions fitted to modern vehicles ( which humans can ignore or override ) does not bode well for AV..
Some websites I visit after you click the 'I am not a robot' button you are virtually bombarded with those captur picture puzzles that ask you to click all pictures with cars, buses, traffic lights, fire hydrants etc. etc. ( on some sites it is up to 8 layers of them) on one article I read some computer expert said that it was training the Artificial intelligence of computers to be able to recognise object from different angles and against different backgrounds, which humans do without thinking but is really, really, really hard for computers to do.. Oh well humans are not quite redundant yet..
If it was easy for computers / AI to sense the objects they would be useless on websites for separating humans from robots anyway.
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If it was easy for computers / AI to sense the objects they would be useless on websites for separating humans from robots anyway.
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That is amusing but I once programmed a robot to draw pictures of Micky Mouse. pretty easy to get it to tap a touch pad.
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That is amusing but I once programmed a robot to draw pictures of Micky Mouse. pretty easy to get it to tap a touch pad.
It's not just tapping the touch pad. It is moving the pointer until it is over the 'I am a not a robot' check box, then clicking on there. So it is having to interact with where the pointer is. Still fairly basic. The point is really to show how futile these tests are.
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That is amusing but I once programmed a robot to draw pictures of Micky Mouse. pretty easy to get it to tap a touch pad.
An expert at everything :). Are there no end to your skills?
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That is amusing but I once programmed a robot to draw pictures of Micky Mouse. pretty easy to get it to tap a touch pad.
An expert at everything :). Are there no end to your skills?
Not an expert by any means ( ex=has been, spurt = a drip under pressure ). Used to program robots for a living.
Easy peasy for someone to move the pointer to a known position and the robots preprogrammed path can take it to the fixed position of the dialogue box on the screen. The reality is that even even with all their sensors computers cannot see, make sense of and react to the world the way humans do. Narrow AI can do some amazing things under controlled conditions, but humans have wide intelligence and can do most things really well, an AI expert said that five year old has more advanced spatial and motor skills than the most advanced computer systems at the moment.
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Just been looking at the user manual and it seems like Honda have covered themselves for every possible situation when it comes to the collision warning system here is a copy of the conditions when it might not work properly
■ Forward Collision Warning Limitations
Forward Collision Warning may not activate or may not detect a vehicle in front of your vehicle, and may activate even when you are aware of a vehicle ahead of you, or when there is no vehicle ahead, under the following conditions.
● The distance between your vehicle and the vehicle ahead of you is too short.
● A vehicle cuts in front of you at a slow speed, and it brakes suddenly.
● A vehicle suddenly crosses in front of you.
● When either your vehicle or the vehicle ahead of you accelerates rapidly.
● The vehicle ahead of you is a motorcycle, a small vehicle, or a unique vehicle such as a tractor.
● When you drive off-road or on a mountain road, or curved and winding road for an extended period that makes it difficult for the
camera to properly detect a vehicle in front of you.
● When there are pedestrians or animals in front of your vehicle.
● When you drive in bad weather (rain, fog, etc.).
● A heavy load in the rear or modifications to the suspension tilts your vehicle.
● An abnormal tyre condition is detected (wrong tyre size, flat tyre, etc.).
● When the windscreen is blocked by dirt, mud, leaves, wet snow, etc.
● When the temperature inside the system is high.
● A sudden change between light and dark such as an entrance or exit of a tunnel.
● You drive into the sunlight (e.g. at dawn or dusk).
● When the windscreen is dirty or cloudy.
● When streetlights are perceived as the taillight of a vehicle in front of yours.
● When driving at night, the vehicle ahead of you is running with either taillight bulb burned out.
● When you drive in the shadows of trees, buildings, etc.
● When your vehicle is towing a trailer.
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It's hard to understand how autonomous vehicles could cope with entering a busy roundabout, where you have to notice if a car on the roundabout is signalling to exit at your entry road, and then you have to assume it means it!
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The Mark One human brain can multitask, can these gizmos in supposedly autonomous vehicles ?
Vic.
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Easy peasy for someone to move the pointer to a known position and the robots preprogrammed path can take it to the fixed position of the dialogue box on the screen. The reality is that even even with all their sensors computers cannot see, make sense of and react to the world the way humans do. Narrow AI can do some amazing things under controlled conditions, but humans have wide intelligence and can do most things really well, an AI expert said that five year old has more advanced spatial and motor skills than the most advanced computer systems at the moment.
But the position of the dialog box is not known to the robot is it? It has to use some form of interaction with the computer to figure out where to move the pointer too. It’s not like programming an assembly line robot.
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But the position of the dialog box is not known to the robot is it? It has to use some form of interaction with the computer to figure out where to move the pointer too. It’s not like programming an assembly line robot.
Of course the position of the check box is known, it is on the screen when the robot starts to move, and was in the same place when the robot was programmed. I would be more impressed if the robot had accessed a random website and the 'I am not a robot' dialogue box had appeared randomly on the screen, but the box was there at the start of the video and never moved. It is a simple program - you can even run robot programs backwards so that it could actually start off at the check box and then move some random path away from it, then run the program backwards. If you moved the checkbox around the screen a human could easily follow it - but that fixed robot program - naahhhhh.
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Just been looking at the user manual and it seems like Honda have covered themselves for every possible situation when it comes to the collision warning system here is a copy of the conditions when it might not work properly
■ Forward Collision Warning Limitations
Forward Collision Warning may not activate or may not detect a vehicle in front of your vehicle, and may activate even when you are aware of a vehicle ahead of you, or when there is no vehicle ahead, under the following conditions.
● The distance between your vehicle and the vehicle ahead of you is too short.
● A vehicle cuts in front of you at a slow speed, and it brakes suddenly.
● A vehicle suddenly crosses in front of you.
● When either your vehicle or the vehicle ahead of you accelerates rapidly.
● The vehicle ahead of you is a motorcycle, a small vehicle, or a unique vehicle such as a tractor.
● When you drive off-road or on a mountain road, or curved and winding road for an extended period that makes it difficult for the
camera to properly detect a vehicle in front of you.
● When there are pedestrians or animals in front of your vehicle.
● When you drive in bad weather (rain, fog, etc.).
● A heavy load in the rear or modifications to the suspension tilts your vehicle.
● An abnormal tyre condition is detected (wrong tyre size, flat tyre, etc.).
● When the windscreen is blocked by dirt, mud, leaves, wet snow, etc.
● When the temperature inside the system is high.
● A sudden change between light and dark such as an entrance or exit of a tunnel.
● You drive into the sunlight (e.g. at dawn or dusk).
● When the windscreen is dirty or cloudy.
● When streetlights are perceived as the taillight of a vehicle in front of yours.
● When driving at night, the vehicle ahead of you is running with either taillight bulb burned out.
● When you drive in the shadows of trees, buildings, etc.
● When your vehicle is towing a trailer.
Yes, and these limits also apply to present crop of autonomous vehicles, except they have to be programmed to ignore stationary objects otherwise they would be stopping for every keep left bollard and streetsign.
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But the position of the dialog box is not known to the robot is it? It has to use some form of interaction with the computer to figure out where to move the pointer too. It’s not like programming an assembly line robot.
Of course the position of the check box is known, it is on the screen when the robot starts to move, and was in the same place when the robot was programmed. I would be more impressed if the robot had accessed a random website and the 'I am not a robot' dialogue box had appeared randomly on the screen, but the box was there at the start of the video and never moved. It is a simple program - you can even run robot programs backwards so that it could actually start off at the check box and then move some random path away from it, then run the program backwards. If you moved the checkbox around the screen a human could easily follow it - but that fixed robot program - naahhhhh.
I have had enough discussing this with you. The robot works wherever the box is. It’s clearly not just coded for the one example shown in the video. It is not connected in any way to the computer or web page. It has to figure it out. I should probably mention that I am a software architect working in robotics and AI, and for once on this forum I know what I am talking about.
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But the position of the dialog box is not known to the robot is it? It has to use some form of interaction with the computer to figure out where to move the pointer too. It’s not like programming an assembly line robot.
Of course the position of the check box is known, it is on the screen when the robot starts to move, and was in the same place when the robot was programmed. I would be more impressed if the robot had accessed a random website and the 'I am not a robot' dialogue box had appeared randomly on the screen, but the box was there at the start of the video and never moved. It is a simple program - you can even run robot programs backwards so that it could actually start off at the check box and then move some random path away from it, then run the program backwards. If you moved the checkbox around the screen a human could easily follow it - but that fixed robot program - naahhhhh.
I have had enough discussing this with you. The robot works wherever the box is. It’s clearly not just coded for the one example shown in the video. It is not connected in any way to the computer or web page. It has to figure it out. I should probably mention that I am a software architect working in robotics and AI, and for once on this forum I know what I am talking about.
Show me some more examples of this robot opening random screens with the dialogue box appearing in random places and the robot finding the box every single time, or tracking a moving box and I will be convinced. Any way I am sure robot in the meaning on web sites is an automated computer program not a physical robot with servo motors and visual capability..
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I feel no need to convince you. What you have done is deconstructed a humorous response and taken all the humour out of it. Of course the check is for software robots. This robotics developer has simply shown the futility of such a basic test by programming a simple physical robot. My team develop software robots full time. They have to allow for data fields being anywhere on the screen as they are automating the use of web sites which are beyond their control. With the use of basic AI and learning it is perfectly possible to automate a wide range of tasks across many different systems. This level of robotics is a generation beyond the programming of assembly line robotics.
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Seems to have gone off topic somewhat,
What my gripe centres around is the transient message in a place where you MUST take your eyes off the road to actually digest the information. Head up display MAY have been more appropriate in these instances. The message appears and disappears so quickly it’s virtually useless - like trying to scan the credits on a good film where you would like to know the name of a particular actor when all you get is endless info about the dolly grip or best boy!
Artificial Intelligence? More like Algorithmic Iteration methinks.
Ian
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I've had it for 3 1/2 years now, firstly on the Jazz and now on the HR-V. I don't find it an issue, it seldom goes off and the audible aspect of it is so distinct that I don't even need to look.
Why not just switch it off if it irritates you?
The only alarm that I have switched off is the Lane Departure.
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Seems to have gone off topic somewhat,
Ha ha. Yeah, sorry about that.
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Seems to have gone off topic somewhat,
What my gripe centres around is the transient message in a place where you MUST take your eyes off the road to actually digest the information. Head up display MAY have been more appropriate in these instances. The message appears and disappears so quickly it’s virtually useless - like trying to scan the credits on a good film where you would like to know the name of a particular actor when all you get is endless info about the dolly grip or best boy!
Artificial Intelligence? More like Algorithmic Iteration methinks.
Ian
Agree, too many bings and bongs and other distracting stuff these days. When my old Garmin Nuvi satnav died ( not too old really, only about 5 years). I got a new Garmin Drive unit with a bigger screen, it has so many 'driver aids' and warnings it is unreal, if you turn all the warnings on it will bong and flash a brief message when you are approaching an animals crossing sign, what it considers to be a sharp bend , when you approach a speed limit sign with a lower speed limit, school zone, going wrong way down one way street, level crossing etc. etc. but as you say it bongs and flashes a message ( same bong for everything ) that by the time you have looked has disappeared. What it does not do very well is tell you you have deviated from the route, the old one used to let you know verbally that it was recalculating - the new one makes no noise but just flashes a banner across top of screen saying recalculating - easy to miss if you are not looking a screen, and unlike other messages which you can enable / disable in settings you cannot enable verbal recalculating message. Just for a laf when I first got it I left every possible message enabled and my drive was just a series of bongs about every 1/4 mile - I soon turned them all off except the one where a lower speed limit is coming up and the speed camera ( sorry safety camera ) warning - which seems the most useful as a lot of speed limit signs by us seem to be hidden behind overgrown trees these days or so dirty / covered in moss they are hardly readable, and at least the screen tells you the speed limit and it changes pretty much as soon as you pass a sign - great accuracy.
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Seems to have gone off topic somewhat,
What my gripe centres around is the transient message in a place where you MUST take your eyes off the road to actually digest the information. Head up display MAY have been more appropriate in these instances. The message appears and disappears so quickly it’s virtually useless - like trying to scan the credits on a good film where you would like to know the name of a particular actor when all you get is endless info about the dolly grip or best boy!
Artificial Intelligence? More like Algorithmic Iteration methinks.
Ian
We've been experiencing the same problem with our MK3 Sport which we have had for a couple of months now. It seems to be quite sensitive and when I visit my parents house who has a steep driveway leading to a garage door, it always goes off when we park on the drive and actually applies the brakes even though I am not going very fast nor at any risk of collision with the garage door.
We've also had this go off whilst driving on the road for no apparent reason. And I agree it definitely distracts you momentarily and you have to take your eye off the road to find out what's going on. If there is a way to reduce the sensitivity that would be great.
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We've been experiencing the same problem with our MK3 Sport which we have had for a couple of months now. It seems to be quite sensitive and when I visit my parents house who has a steep driveway leading to a garage door, it always goes off when we park on the drive and actually applies the brakes even though I am not going very fast nor at any risk of collision with the garage door.
We've also had this go off whilst driving on the road for no apparent reason. And I agree it definitely distracts you momentarily and you have to take your eye off the road to find out what's going on. If there is a way to reduce the sensitivity that would be great.
I think it has been mentioned before but you are describing two different systems: The one that applies the brakes between 3 an 20 mph is the City-Brake Active System and the one that this topic is referring to, and the second one you describe, is the Forward Collision Warning System, which does not apply the brakes. The latter is adjustable and you can switch them both off and just pretend that they don't exists :).
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Yesterday my collision alarm sounded and for the first time I could see no reason at all for it. Usually you can see the problem before the alarm goes off. Having said that these transient alarms don’t bother me as I would normally ignore them anyway if it was something serious I think it would be a more persistent alarm or a permanent warning light
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Fixed our Jazz permanently today - great result! Disconnected the battery, threw the keys over a nearby hedge and went out for a drive in the MG RV8 - even had to wind my own windows up and down and have an extra Weetabix to battle with the unpowered steering!
Seriously though, many thanks for the many useful replies regarding reducing sensitivity or switching off altogether - I had actually fallen asleep in the armchair whilst reading the manual, looking for solutions.
Ian