Author Topic: Possible causes of Negative camber on rear tyres  (Read 2369 times)

alarch

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Possible causes of Negative camber on rear tyres
« on: June 15, 2020, 09:21:41 PM »
I've had a negative camber problem with my 03 reg Honda Jazz for some time now, leading to excessive wear on the inside edges of the rear tyres. It's passed it's MOT with the issue, but it's pretty bad and seems to be getting worse. I'm thinking of getting rid of the car, but if sorting the issue out isn't too expensive I may persevere with it, as it's a reliable runner.

The garage I normally use didn't seem that interested in investigating the matter, and my car knowledge is pretty much non-existent.

Any thoughts on possible causes (bent suspension has been mooted, or worn ball joints? What sort of ball park figure would we be talking about with potential solutions?

Major clanger

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Re: Possible causes of Negative camber on rear tyres
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2020, 07:47:00 AM »
A vehicle of that age on its original suspension, I would expect its just worn bushes.  It could be ball joints but it should of failed the MOT of that's the case - worn bushes should also be noted on an MOT.  Unless this is a specific problem with aging Jazz's, I doubt anyone could give a more specific answer without seeing/inspecting the vehicle.

sparky Paul

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Re: Possible causes of Negative camber on rear tyres
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2020, 09:19:53 AM »
The Jazz rear suspension is a basic beam axle setup with a double bushed mounting to provide a degree of rear steering. No ball joints to worry about.

Just a few Qs...

Affecting both tyres equally?

How sure are you that it's a camber issue and not track, have you had a camber gauge on it?

Is the suspension sat low? Rear springs do get saggy with age on the Jazz, and that can affect camber and track.

Any clues from the tyre wear, any sign of scalloping, rotationally uneven wear or feathering?

alarch

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Re: Possible causes of Negative camber on rear tyres
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2020, 03:52:17 PM »
Thanks a lot for the responses.

I'm sorry I just don't have the expertise to answer most of your questions. All I can say is that the wheels noticeably lean inwards, and this seems to be getting progressively worse. I've got some newish tyres on, so I couldn't say much about the type of wear at this stage, even if I knew what I was looking for... What I can say is that both rear tyres that I replaced were similarly affected - and quite badly worn on the inside, whilst having at least 4mm tread on the outer edges.

The suspension doesn't seem to me to be particularly sat low - but them I doubt whether I'd know for sure one way or the other. One thing's for sure - the corrosion underneath generally is pretty bad. The car's a 03 reg.

Assuming it was the bushes, what ball park cost are we talking about parts and labour? I won't hold you to it, but if we're talking hundreds then I'm probably going to get rid (it's probably not worth more than £300 tops). Which would be a shame, given it's a reliable car and ideally I'd like to hang on to it for another couple of years.

culzean

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Re: Possible causes of Negative camber on rear tyres
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2020, 04:08:52 PM »
If the car is running OK, handles and steers OK with no knocking or noises from rear and it passes MOT then the cheaper option may be to stump up for new tyres every so often - after all you can get a pair of rear tyres for less than £100.

I was wondering how long you have had the car,  has this been happening since you got the car and whether it may have been heavily overloaded before you got it - ie too many bags of gravel in the boot ?
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

TnTkr

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Re: Possible causes of Negative camber on rear tyres
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2020, 04:10:29 PM »
I was thinking about the corrosion, but tought it unlikely in such a new car.

But now when you say that there is lot of corrosion, one possibility is that the torsion beam between left and right wheel arms is weakened by corrosion and started to bend or the connecting weldings at the ends are giving up. That is a damage beyond safe and feasible repair, but a good solution could be a complete replacement rear axle from a salvage car.

sparky Paul

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Re: Possible causes of Negative camber on rear tyres
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2020, 04:49:25 PM »
I'm sorry I just don't have the expertise to answer most of your questions. All I can say is that the wheels noticeably lean inwards, and this seems to be getting progressively worse.

If it's that visible, it's pretty bad and I don't think a camber gauge will be any use!

I doubt the bushes would cause that. If the bushes were totally shot, the axle would still maintain the camber angles when static, but the whole axle would slop about, causing incorrect angles on cornering and probably accompanied by some horrible knocking and groaning.

One thing's for sure - the corrosion underneath generally is pretty bad.

If there's a lot of corrosion, one problem with beam axles is that they can corrode, weaken, and can even snap or welds give way. I'm sure another member has had this problem with an old Jazz, not sure if they scrapped the car because of it. If it was really bad, it could certainly deform and cause the rear wheels to lean in, but I'd be surprised for it not to be picked up by a previous MOT if it was that bad.

Any chance of some photos underneath, particularly of the rear beam, which is a metal assembly that sits across the car, just in front of the rear wheels? If only to rule it out - if the axle is collapsing, the car really isn't safe to drive.

From what you have said, I'm pretty sure it's not bushes, but aftermarket ones are about £20 each, two required, plus new bolts, probably another £10-£15. The problem is labour, it's a big job, especially if the garage wants to take the axle off completely to do it. You could soon run up a fairly hefty bill.

If the axle is rotten, then the only option is a good secondhand one as suggested above, probably around £75. Again, it's a pretty significant job, and a garage would probably want half a day to do it, at £40+ per hour.

As Culzean says, it could also have been seriously overloaded at some point in its life, the rear arms are not that strong and both could conceivably be bent by such an event, but I don't think you would see it deteriorating afterwards.

Somebody really needs to poke their head underneath and have a look what's going on.

Major clanger

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Re: Possible causes of Negative camber on rear tyres
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2020, 05:08:31 PM »
Not disagreeing with anything said however the Elephant in the room is surely how did it pass the MOT if its that bad?

Admittedly I'm not familiar now with the UK MOT, here in France what you describe sparky Paul would be an instant failiure, you would only be allowed to drive it home then off the road until fixed.

I can see the overloading issue knackering the suspension over time leading to worn components  - you only need a combination of worn bushes and shocks to ruin a set of tyres in no time.

Is the suspension not put on a machine to test efficiency then a visual done on the MOT?

sparky Paul

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Re: Possible causes of Negative camber on rear tyres
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2020, 05:52:33 PM »
Not disagreeing with anything said however the Elephant in the room is surely how did it pass the MOT if its that bad?

Admittedly I'm not familiar now with the UK MOT, here in France what you describe sparky Paul would be an instant failiure, you would only be allowed to drive it home then off the road until fixed.

That depends where you get it tested. You don't have to look too far in the UK to find somebody that will take it somewhere for a 'soft' test. I have no idea if the OP knows the MOT history of the car.

I can see the overloading issue knackering the suspension over time leading to worn components  - you only need a combination of worn bushes and shocks to ruin a set of tyres in no time.

If it was just the tyre wear, I would agree with you.

However, the OP says he can see both wheels leaning in, the bushes couldn't cause that. They support the whole axle assembly, so if the axle is sound, the geometry shouldn't be altered by worn bushes. The only way that both wheels could visibly lean at the top is by bent/deformed trailing arms, a deformed beam axle, or both wheel bearings hanging off. I'll stand to be corrected, but I can't think of anything else that would cause it.

Is the suspension not put on a machine to test efficiency then a visual done on the MOT?

Not in the UK, it's just visual check, and a manual check for play in any balljoints or bushes. The French CT is far more thorough, in many areas.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2020, 06:22:23 PM by sparky Paul »

sparky Paul

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Re: Possible causes of Negative camber on rear tyres
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2020, 06:08:44 PM »
To the OP, it's also possible that the trailing arms could be deformed due to internal corrosion. They can look reasonable on the outside, but blocked drain holes can rot them from within.

The only thing I would say is that it would be unlikely for both sides to be at the same stage of 'decay'.

Major clanger

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Re: Possible causes of Negative camber on rear tyres
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2020, 07:19:59 PM »
That depends where you get it tested. You don't have to look too far in the UK to find somebody that will take it somewhere for a 'soft' test. I have no idea if the OP knows the MOT history of the car.

Ah, yes I remember those  :(  I mistakenly thought those days were over with EU harmonisation of regs.  It still comes down to the tester I guess...

guest4871

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Re: Possible causes of Negative camber on rear tyres
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2020, 07:23:33 PM »
The MOT history can be checked here:

https://www.gov.uk/check-mot-history

TnTkr

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Re: Possible causes of Negative camber on rear tyres
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2020, 09:02:05 PM »
To the OP, it's also possible that the trailing arms could be deformed due to internal corrosion. They can look reasonable on the outside, but blocked drain holes can rot them from within.

The only thing I would say is that it would be unlikely for both sides to be at the same stage of 'decay'.

That came into my mind too, as I have had Renault R4 in past. But I rejected that idea just because wheels on both sides are misaligned. That would be very unlike coincidence.

alarch

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Re: Possible causes of Negative camber on rear tyres
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2020, 09:33:07 PM »
Thanks again for the replies.

Here's a view of the nearside rear.

I have had the car for a few years now. I have no reason to doubt the integrity nor professionalism of the garage that's done the MOT for the past few years.

I would say these issues with tyre wear have been there from the since I bought it a few years ago, but have got steadily worse. The road handling has never been great, but I wouldn't say it was dangerous. I'd have got rid of it if that was the case.

Jocko

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Re: Possible causes of Negative camber on rear tyres
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2020, 10:40:50 PM »
That photograph makes the axle look bent. Check it with some sort of straight edge (even a bit of dressed timber will do). Bushes cause knocking and weak springs just have the car sitting lower. A replacement axle, from a breaker's, would be my solution if it proves to be bent.

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