Clubjazz - Honda Jazz & HR-V Forums

Other Hondas & General Topics => Off Topic (Non-Honda) => Topic started by: guest4078 on December 02, 2014, 12:35:08 AM

Title: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
Post by: guest4078 on December 02, 2014, 12:35:08 AM

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/france-plans-diesel-engine-cull-fight-over-pollution (http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/france-plans-diesel-engine-cull-fight-over-pollution)
Title: Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
Post by: culzean on December 02, 2014, 05:59:08 PM
Honda held out against the European love of Diesel engines for longer than any other manufacturer,  they have been proved correct.   Diesel engines are for trains and lorries.
Title: Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
Post by: monkeydave on June 08, 2015, 04:51:58 PM
and i heard that the honda diesel is an is an Isuzu block so not a real honda engine
Title: Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
Post by: RichardA on June 08, 2015, 05:02:54 PM
The engine used in the Civic around 2002-05 is an Isuzu engine, the 1.6 and 2.2-litre engines I understand are entirely Honda's own design.
Title: Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
Post by: culzean on June 08, 2015, 06:36:49 PM
The engine used in the Civic around 2002-05 is an Isuzu engine, the 1.6 and 2.2-litre engines I understand are entirely Honda's own design.

When Honda started making Diesels they used a Isuzu bottom end and fitted Honda top end and clever bits,  no point in re-inventing the wheel as the Isuzu bits were well proven and bulletproof.
Title: Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
Post by: Jazzdriver on June 08, 2015, 08:28:19 PM
I often see diesels belching out black clouds-nasty carcinogens. Even newish cars.
Title: Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
Post by: culzean on June 08, 2015, 09:55:24 PM
Diesels in cars were supported and even I think subsidised through favorable company car tax rates by European governments, the Japs and Americans and rest of world were never keen on diesel cars and made them for European market ( I never saw a diesel car in Australia when we lived there) - Europeans pushed them because they were going to save the world because they were lower CO2 emissions than petrol cars,  what they failed to mention is that they are much higher in nasty smog causing NOx (nitrous oxide) and carcinogenic particulates.   A few years ago EU even supported a scheme to buy 'bio-diesel' from third world countries who then proceeded to cut down rainforest to grow palm oil plants etc to refine into oil when they should have been growing food.  EU is now having to do a 'U-turn' on diesels because the cat is well and truly out of the bag about diesel fumes causing smog in cities like Paris.  Diesel engines are also becoming horrendously complicated and expensive to repair.

The future for cars is petrol-electric  hybrids until they they come up with an electric car with at least 300 mile range and 10 minute recharge.
Title: Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
Post by: culzean on September 27, 2015, 04:35:14 PM
More bad news for clean Diesels LOL- who would suspect German car makers of exaggerating their cars capabilities ?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34324772 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34324772)
Title: Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
Post by: culzean on November 01, 2015, 09:40:25 AM
another downside of diesel engines is their tendency to destroy their transmissions due to higher torque (delivered in pulses) at low revs (but diesels only do low revs anyway) - the answer was the notorious 'dual-mass' flywheel given a write up in this article - trouble is dual mass flywheels have a nasty habit of regularly falling apart (sometimes at low mileage) with very expensive results.  Basically a dual mass flywheel replaces a conventional solid flywheel with collection of springs and plates held together with a wing and a prayer, but without them diesel gearboxes and transmission would have to be a lot more heavily designed, noisy, rough and well 'heavy'.

diesel lovers will say that the fact that diesels rev lower means they last longer - not true as diesel engines have longer strokes and revs are limited by piston speed to about 4K,  a petrol with shorter stroke  can rev to 7K and not exceed piston speed limit.  Never buy a modern diesel over 3 years old as the repair bills will make your eyes water (turbos, dual mass flywheel,  DPF, injectors).  company car driver = diesel,  my own money=petrol

Diesels are rapidly becoming too complex and high maintenance and hard to justify lower fuel consumption vs higher maintenance costs unless you do mega yearly mileage and don't mind causing a bit of cancerous smog here and there. 

http://www.coxmotorparts.co.uk/genuine-honda-civic-22-diesel-clutch-kit-luk-flywheel-p-1394.html?zenid=efcb2c03556e8c916924372b324ced8e (http://www.coxmotorparts.co.uk/genuine-honda-civic-22-diesel-clutch-kit-luk-flywheel-p-1394.html?zenid=efcb2c03556e8c916924372b324ced8e)

honest john - why are dual mass flywheels so much trouble -----

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/faq/dual-mass-flywheels/ (http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/faq/dual-mass-flywheels/)
Title: Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
Post by: TonyS on November 01, 2015, 01:38:10 PM
Totally agree with culzean regarding modern day diesels, very complex and an expensive bill waiting to happen.
I did briefly consider a diesel a couple of years ago but the (expensive) horror stories of dual mass flywheels, turbos and DPF problems persuaded me otherwise.

The diesel engine was originally a relatively simple piece of engineering which has become more and more complex over the years in order to improve performance and to satisfy ever more stringent emissions regulations.

Even some petrol engines are getting to be ever more complex such as VW/Audi group TFSI engines incorporating both a turbocharger and a supercharger which will no doubt result in big bills for owners in the future.

Thankfully Honda have avoided going down this route so whilst they might not match the TFSI engines in terms of outright performance they are fairly bullet proof as long as they get a regular oil and filter change just like their motorbikes.
Title: Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
Post by: culzean on November 14, 2015, 12:09:52 PM
Another damning article on dirty diesels and how politicians as well as manufacturers are guilty of 'fudging the figures'

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/sep/30/emissions-scandal-how-the-drive-for-diesel-ran-out-of-gas (http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/sep/30/emissions-scandal-how-the-drive-for-diesel-ran-out-of-gas)

The link below shows that Europe took the wrong turning by going diesel, and Japanese were cleverer and more environmentally friendly (so what's new)

http://www.enveurope.com/content/25/1/15 (http://www.enveurope.com/content/25/1/15)

excerpt from above report

The European-Japanese powertrain debate

The European diesel versus Japanese hybrid technology debate produced strange effects. In 2003, Toyota was excluded from talks between ACEA and the European Commission over Euro 5 emission laws due in 2010 [104]. The stance of Japanese carmakers was not appreciated with their European counterparts since they considered diesels to be a dead-end technology environmentally: ‘When equipped with all future after-treatment equipment, diesel cars will become as expensive as hybrid cars’, says Katsuhiko Hirose, hybrid project general manager for Toyota [103]. European Union emission legislation however remained more lenient and did not require or simply postponed the need for after-treatment equipment. Dated technology could therefore be artificially kept alive. We believe that this conduct contradicted the self-imposed ‘best available technology’ legislation laid down by the EU stating that ‘emission limit values, parameters or equivalent technical measures should be based on the best available techniques’ [105].


EU authorities adopted different NOx emission thresholds for diesel than for petrol cars. NOx represents the sum of NO plus NO2. Since Euro 3 and up to now (Euro 5), NOx emission thresholds for diesel cars have been about three times higher than for petrol cars. Noticeably, this legal threshold limit between petrol and diesel cars (factor of 3) is mistakenly used as a basis for emission comparison even in high-quality scientific reports
Title: Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
Post by: RichardA on November 14, 2015, 02:35:20 PM
VW emissions scandal latest new and full story:

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/vw-emissions-scandal-vw-uk-offers-discounts-%C2%A31500-loyalty-bonus (http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/vw-emissions-scandal-vw-uk-offers-discounts-%C2%A31500-loyalty-bonus)
Title: Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
Post by: guest5079 on November 20, 2015, 03:28:51 PM
Absolutely nothing to do with scientific  analysis of diesels but purely a personal observation.
I do not like diesels, anybody that lives or lived in an area of traffic concentration would know of the choking sensation of diesel fumes especially on cold mornings.
Back in the 1960's I drove a BMC LD Mothers Pride bread van, if the beast broke down, it meant quite a wait whilst the mechanics came out, One day, being only a couple of miles form the depot, the pipe from the lift pump to the injector pump cracked. As the engine was still running, I drove back to the depot and the pipe was fixed. In just a couple of miles the fumes were quite nasty. That evening, I was taken ill, very ill. Dr came to In laws where we were for the evening he was foxed. It seems despite his best diagnosis of it being a stroke, he was not happy. The long and short of it was that I was suffering from diesel poisoning. I will admit to being very scared as my brain was fine but nothing would work, I was completely paralysed.  I made the vow, never a diesel. It seems now that the lovefest with the diesel might be over.
Title: Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
Post by: guest5669 on November 20, 2015, 11:06:11 PM
Absolutely nothing to do with scientific  analysis of diesels but purely a personal observation.
I do not like diesels, anybody that lives or lived in an area of traffic concentration would know of the choking sensation of diesel fumes especially on cold mornings.
Back in the 1960's I drove a BMC LD Mothers Pride bread van, if the beast broke down, it meant quite a wait whilst the mechanics came out, One day, being only a couple of miles form the depot, the pipe from the lift pump to the injector pump cracked. As the engine was still running, I drove back to the depot and the pipe was fixed. In just a couple of miles the fumes were quite nasty. That evening, I was taken ill, very ill. Dr came to In laws where we were for the evening he was foxed. It seems despite his best diagnosis of it being a stroke, he was not happy. The long and short of it was that I was suffering from diesel poisoning. I will admit to being very scared as my brain was fine but nothing would work, I was completely paralysed.  I made the vow, never a diesel. It seems now that the lovefest with the diesel might be over.

Bus's are the worst culprits especially in London , I hate being stuck behind a bus, as it does choke the life out of me.
Title: Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
Post by: culzean on November 21, 2015, 10:23:05 AM
With diesels well and truly 'outed' for high real world emissions and everyone touting plug in electric cars as the next thing to save the world where is all the extra electricity coming from - with government rapidly closing down coal fired power stations (Germans are building new coal fired stations by the way) we already have a shortfall of capacity in UK and if we have a cold day with hardly any wind (or too much wind which turbines can't cope with either) industry will have to shut down to relieve load on national grid.   Frightening thing is that the second largest wind farm in Europe off Sussex coast with over 140   turbines can only generate 8% of the power of one normal coal fired station.  We already have to import nuclear generated electricity from France to top-up our system.

The governments answer is to build gas powered electrical generating plants as being more sustainable,  don't know why as a lot of our gas has to come from Russia or in frozen tanks on ships all the way from far east (Malaysia) to Milford Haven in Wales.
Title: Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
Post by: culzean on November 22, 2015, 05:37:28 PM
NOx (NO2)  tax may be with us soon - that should re-balance the 'slightly lower CO2 but loads more of everything else Diesel vs Petrol argument),  then maybe a particulate tax (maybe to help NHS deal with Cancer caused by Diesel fumes).

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/93498/autumn-statement-2015-calls-for-diesel-scrappage-scheme-and-tax-rethink (http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/93498/autumn-statement-2015-calls-for-diesel-scrappage-scheme-and-tax-rethink)

below, conclusion from an EU paper published recently on Diesels and air quality.

Most European Governments have promoted policies that indirectly support the increase in the market share of diesel cars, by providing fiscal incentives for cars with lower CO2 emissions. These have replaced previous tax systems based on weight or power. There is evidence that these policies reduce real world CO2 but probably only marginally, but at the same time exacerbate poor urban air quality. The EU limit values for NO2, and PM10 remain difficult to achieve in many cities, and the policies to increase the number of diesel cars has indirectly made achievement of these limits more difficult.

attached is PDF report from Greater London Authority on future of diesel transport in London (and I guess most other UK cities).



[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
Post by: culzean on December 07, 2015, 03:57:47 PM
Back to topic about future of Diesel engines

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/11883719/Volkswagen-scandal-could-kill-off-diesel-cars.html# (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/11883719/Volkswagen-scandal-could-kill-off-diesel-cars.html#)
Title: Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
Post by: culzean on December 19, 2015, 09:59:27 AM
Sobering reading about Euro standards for Diesel emissions, I was gobsmacked when I heard on a news program that car makers are not breaking the law in Europe by falsely claiming vehicles meet Euro standards when they patently don't by a country mile.  It is different in USA however, where people will end up in jail for same false claims.

Maybe they should be renamed as 'Diseasel engines' See link below and PDF attachment with data from real world tests

http://fleetworld.co.uk/news/2014/Oct/How-dirty-are-diesels/0434016426 (http://fleetworld.co.uk/news/2014/Oct/How-dirty-are-diesels/0434016426)

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
Post by: John Ratsey on December 19, 2015, 02:02:16 PM
The graphs highlight the NOx difference between diesel and petrol.

It might not be illegal for people to make false claims when selling products but surely the consumer legislation gives people the right to either return products for a refund or to be fixed? However, at present diesel owners have no incentive to take action. The ASA might also be able to deliver a light reprimand to the offenders.

IMO the government should (i) add an air quality levy to the annual VED (say £50 per half litre rounded up) and (ii) get the vehicle manufacturers to pay the difference in VED based on the claimed CO2 and retested CO2 until such time as each offending vehicle is scrapped. Had manufacturers been more realistic in their claims then government would be collecting more money from VED.

While manufacturers have been leaning on the European Commission to water down the proposed tighter vehicle emissions regulations, the European Parliament is trying to stand firm http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/93254/european-parliament-curbs-plans-to-relax-emissions-limits (http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/93254/european-parliament-curbs-plans-to-relax-emissions-limits).
Title: Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
Post by: chrisc on December 20, 2015, 03:37:08 PM
VW got into trouble here in SA since the carbon tax added to the vehicle sales price was in proportion to the rate of particulates and C02 emitted from the exhaust.  Since these figures have been proven to be false, VW have been asked to recalculate the emissions to determine what tax should have been levied
Title: Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
Post by: culzean on December 31, 2015, 10:34:56 AM
article about VW in Auto Express 17 Dec 2015

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/volkswagen/92893/vw-emissions-scandal-recalls-compensation-is-your-car-affected-latest-news (http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/volkswagen/92893/vw-emissions-scandal-recalls-compensation-is-your-car-affected-latest-news)

Here is a clip from this article,  just shows how weak and skewed towards Diesel engines the EU emission laws are that 'to give good emissions/fuel consumption results, a manufacturer could specify a special setting that is not normally used for everyday driving' is included in legislation - well that just about confirms that the EU is officially a wholly owned subsidiary of the German government - when did Cameron say the referendum was being held,  can't wait to leave the self-serving zero growth superstate that EU has become and trade freely with the rest of the world without European laws as a millstone around our necks.

VW emissions cheat software may not break EU test laws

A loophole in EU emissions regulation looks to have allowed VW to build cars with the software device, as minutes from the 2012 meeting of the EU type approval authorities state: “The legislation does not clearly state the criteria by which the Type Approval authority may judge the validity of engine settings ‘prescribed by the manufacturer’ for the Type I test and there is a concern that, to give good emissions/fuel consumption results, a manufacturer could specify a special setting that is not normally used for everyday driving.”
Title: Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
Post by: John Ratsey on January 22, 2016, 08:09:00 AM
There's an interesting article in the latest Which? They have trawled through the emissions data collected during their testing of over 300 vehicles and made a list of the worst vehicles for NOx (diesel and petrol) and CO (petrol).

Three diesel vehicles in current production fail the Euro 1 NOx standard of 1g/km with the 3 L Jeep Grand Cherokee a long way out in front at 2.7 g/km. Only 7 of the 153 diesel vehicles tested usings Which?'s procedure passed the appropriate NOx standard.

10% of the petrol vehicles tested also failed the NOx standard. The worst was a Mercedes SL with 0.2 g/km closely followed by a Merc E class with a Mini Cooper just behind. 1.2 L Nissan Pulsar and 1.2 L Nissan Qashqai take 4th and 5th places. Two thirds of petrol vehicles also failed the CO standard. Top of the table is the Hyundai Veloster closely followed by a 1.2 L Nissan Note.

Honda's only mention in the report is that the Civic they tested produced 0.0027 g/km of NOx.
Title: Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
Post by: culzean on January 23, 2016, 11:12:36 AM
US department of Justice sues VW over misleading emissions - now it gets really interesting (and expensive for VW)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35227435 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35227435)
Title: Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
Post by: John Ratsey on January 23, 2016, 02:32:39 PM
US department of Justice sues VW over misleading emissions - now it gets really interesting (and expensive for VW)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35227435 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35227435)
Quote
"The complaint alleges that nearly 600,000 diesel engine vehicles had illegal defeat devices installed that impair their emission control systems and cause emissions to exceed EPA's standards, resulting in harmful air pollution," the filing said.
There's a small flaw in the argument: All evidence points to vehicles that didn't have defeat devices and passed the testing still have real life emissions (ie the type which result in air polution) above the EPA's standards. So the real case is against whoever designed the tests needs to be in court as well. Something similar needs to happen in Europe with whoever has caused the procrastination of the introduction of the new vehicle tests being prosecuted for unnecessarily endangering human health.
Title: Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
Post by: culzean on January 24, 2016, 12:17:07 PM
I can understand the legislators in EU (who are undoubtedly in bed with European car makers) not wanting to update the Diesel tests because they knew the cars would not pass any updated, more 'real life' test regime.   The Japs realised many years ago that Diesel engines were a 'dead end technology' that would never meet the tight emission standards that were on the horizon (especially in USA and Japan) and concentrated on Hybrid petrol cars.  EU got miffed and banned Japs from the EU discussions (in about 2005 I think).  Interestingly even Direct injection petrol engines emit Higher NOx than 'normal 'manifold injected petrol engines, but not as much a Diesels.

Remember when Bio-Diesel and Ethanol were going to save the planet,  tropical countries were encouraged to grow palm oil, maize, soya and sugar cane - this meant the wholesale destruction of rainforest to make room for the 'bio-crops' - and all this while people in those very same countries were starving.

Next bandwagon seems to be plug in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEV) where because they can run on electric battery power for say 18miles (unless you want the heater on) they magically become exempt from VED, congestion charge etc.  The fact that when engine is required they only do 30mpg is not taken into account, another fudge if ever I saw one.

The perilous state of our electrical supply in UK (because of fragmentation of generating companies and lack of investment, lack of leadership from successive governments,  too much reliance on unreliable 'renewable wind and solar'  ) where we have only 1 or 2 % spare capacity in winter means that if everyone plugs their electric car in to charge some parts of the country may suffer power cuts,  To fit in with 'Carbon emission legislation' we are replacing coal with valuable gas to generate electricity at 40% efficiency where it can be burned at over 90% in domestic boilers to provide heat. All the while Germany and other countries are still building coal powered power station. Someone even thought it was a good idea to transport wood chippings all the way from Canada to replace British coal in power stations - madness on a grand scale.

Title: Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
Post by: RichardA on April 24, 2016, 06:48:37 PM
Porsche, Volkswagen, Audi, Opel and Mercedes diesel cars will be recalled as part of a clampdown on nitrogen oxide emissions, according to a German government official:

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/apr/22/mitsubishi-scandal-us-regulator-demands-data (http://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/apr/22/mitsubishi-scandal-us-regulator-demands-data)

(BMW, which invested in fuel-saving technologies earlier than most rivals, is not part of the recall)

Meanwhile, Volkswagen will buy back or repair about 500,000 of its cars in the US at cost of $10bn as it tries to recover from the “dieselgate” emissions scandal:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/04/21/vw-faces-10bn-bill-to-buy-back-500000-cars-hit-by-dieselegate-in/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/04/21/vw-faces-10bn-bill-to-buy-back-500000-cars-hit-by-dieselegate-in/)

And Mitsubishi Motors has admitted manipulating test data to overstate the fuel efficiency of 625,000 cars:

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/apr/20/mitsubishi-motors-mishandled-fuel-economy-tests (http://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/apr/20/mitsubishi-motors-mishandled-fuel-economy-tests)
Title: Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
Post by: John Ratsey on April 24, 2016, 07:07:41 PM
However, Honda isn't completely in the clear: This report (last para) http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36106783 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36106783) says that the Honda CRV was among the vehicles which exceeded Euro 5 NOX of 180mg per km in real life testing.

And, with next year's introduction of the flat rate car tax, we can look forward to people moving back to bigger and more polluting engines.
Title: Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
Post by: guest6230 on July 26, 2016, 12:33:22 PM
I often used to wonder how brand new Audi TDi's could emit so much smoke going down motorway slip roads, now I know! I also wondered why Alfa's mpg figures for their TDi's were so much lower than VW's given the engine specs were virtually the same. It's a total scandal and I hope it kills these primitive polluting agricultural machines. The German government had concerns about the level of soot found in Germans lungs long ago and I can't help thinking that they knew about it all along. I'd now like to see roadside spot checks done on diesel cars to make sure they comply to emissions. It will be interesting to see how the private law suits progress in the US now VW has agreed to a $14.7 billion payout for owners.

I believe hybrid electric cars are a stop gap and hydrogen fuel cell is the future.
Title: French fall out of love with diesels
Post by: guest1372 on September 07, 2016, 11:40:55 AM
Tue Sep 6, 2016 3:40pm BST Exclusive: Renault sees diesel disappearing from most of its European cars

http://uk.reuters.com/article/us-renault-diesel-exclusive-idUKKCN11C1MF (http://uk.reuters.com/article/us-renault-diesel-exclusive-idUKKCN11C1MF)

"Tougher standards and testing methods will increase technology costs to the point where diesel is forced out of the market," the source summarized Bollore as saying.

Diesel engines, pricier but more efficient than gasoline, had already vanished from the smallest 'A'-segment vehicles like Renault's Twingo well before VW's so-called 'dieselgate', as their extra expense outstripped savings on fuel.  By 2020, Renault now predicts that the toughening of Euro 6 emissions rules will push diesel out of cars in the next 'B'-segment size category, including its Clio sub compact, as well as some 'C' models such as the Megane hatchback, the sources said.  Models in those first three size categories accounted for most of the group's 1.6 million European deliveries last year, and more than 60 percent were diesels.

"Everybody is backtracking on diesel because after 2017-18 it becomes more and more expensive," said Pavan Potluri, a power train analyst with consulting firm IHS Automotive.

Starting in 2019, however, vehicle approvals will be based on emissions performance during real driving. This is forcing manufacturers to install costlier emissions treatment systems.  The business case for diesel can only deteriorate further, industry leaders realize, as targets become stricter, while electric and hybrid car batteries get cheaper and more powerful.

"Beyond 2025 there may be some manufacturers that completely drop diesel, because the cost of electrification will have come down significantly," Potluri said.

Diesel car sales will plummet to 9 percent of the European market in 2030 from 52 percent today, management consultant AlixPartners - regarded as an authority on the auto industry - predicted in June, with the decline accelerating after 2020.



Was driven in a diesel/electric Peugeot a while back, although it's discontinued that seemed to make quite a lot of sense.  It was start/stop and used the electric from standstill, and also blended that in when the semi-auto changed gears - the front was just a regular diesel engine & transmission, the back had a motor/generator set with a small battery pack.  It could do either power source or both, the high torque rear and the long range efficient front was the right mix and it surprisingly did an 8 second 0-60.  Crawling along was quite good with the diesel only firing up when we got going.  You could select modes if you wanted such as EV only or 4wd, but the brains would change it after certain thresholds were reached.

A pretty simple piece of engineering from (I think) Bosch.  The only visible difference was extra battery cables running to the back.
--
TG
Title: Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
Post by: culzean on November 16, 2016, 02:11:39 PM
http://www.consumerreports.org/volkswagen/14-7-billion-volkswagen-diesel-settlement-wins-final-approval/ (http://www.consumerreports.org/volkswagen/14-7-billion-volkswagen-diesel-settlement-wins-final-approval/)

This is probably the start of a very tough time for European vehicles in USA,  especially Diesels

love the quote from the writer..........

I grew up in Detroit's Golden Age, driving a glamorous, vintage 65 Olds Cutlass in high school and my college years. Later, I experienced the joys and expense of European engineering through a succession of cars made by VW, Volvo and Saab. That was before the reliable and spacious Honda minivan. Now I'm covering auto safety, new technology and corporate accountability for CR from Washington, D.C. Follow me on Twitter @jplungis.

Title: Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
Post by: John Ratsey on December 02, 2016, 11:28:55 AM
Four major cities move to ban diesel vehicles by 2025 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-38170794 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-38170794). None in the UK, however, so we will have to continue to be poisoned for a bit longer. I had hoped that last week's budget statement would have contained some anti-diesel incentives such as increaded fuel duty on diesel but not petrol or an air quality levy added to the annual car tax for all diesel vehicles. Either measure would discourage people from buying a new diesel before the 1st April 2017 change to the taxation.
Title: Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
Post by: culzean on December 02, 2016, 11:38:23 AM
Far from increasing the tax on diesel fuel European governments will probably carry on with their positive discrimination in favour of diesel by continuing to subsidize the fuel to the detriment of petrol.

Anyone would think that European vehicle makers wrote the rules, and not the government legislators - perish the thought  :-X

Anyone who has ever been to Mexico city will know that it is like a soup bowl surrounded by mountains and the soup is diesel fumes that you start to smell as the plane approaches the airport, once smelled never forgotten.
Title: Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
Post by: culzean on December 09, 2016, 09:27:53 AM
I have noticed with damp roads we have been having lately that some cars (mainly German ) are riding around with rear of car proper dirty with licence plate totally obscured by crap, now it may be my wishfull imagination but diesels seem to have more and blacker crap on the back of car than petrols,  could it be that the back of their car is acting as another link in the emissions reduction and collecting the soot that they normally pump out for the benefit of following vehicles.
Title: Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
Post by: guest5079 on December 09, 2016, 10:05:56 AM
When I was but a boy, I lived at Sidcup and worked in London, I was turfed off a train at New Cross Gate as there had been an incident. I then walked many miles through a filthy London smog walking past the incident. The Lewisham train crash. I eventually managed to get a bus to take me home .
Moving on in years the young bloke opposite has a Ford transit van and in the past week with the cold weather he has been starting his van and leaving it running. The foul stink of half burnt diesel, which seems to permeate everything,  took me back to that fateful day. I am sorry offend or please I detest the vile product.
Yesterday, I followed a BMW estate, what model I know not as the back was one sheet of black filth. Do manufacturers not test for the vortex that is so obviously causing a problem.
I still get the colly wobbles when I smell diesel on a cold day.
Title: Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
Post by: culzean on December 09, 2016, 11:52:45 AM
To try and distance themselves from being responsible and maybe take their mind off other the other many and varied massive crises facing the EU / Europe ( https://hbr.org/2016/09/is-project-europe-doomed (https://hbr.org/2016/09/is-project-europe-doomed) ) the Commission has decided to punish several countries over Diesels -  including UK and Germany (good luck with that one).

https://www.euractiv.com/section/transport/news/commission-takes-legal-action-against-seven-eu-countries-over-volkswagen-scandal/ (https://www.euractiv.com/section/transport/news/commission-takes-legal-action-against-seven-eu-countries-over-volkswagen-scandal/)

see also PDF attachment of 30 worst diesel cars - interesting  :D

interesting thing is that 'hot restart' diesel emissions are much higher than cold start,  which makes a nonsense of stop-start technology on diesel vehicles - I'm afraid it is all smoke and mirrors (well more smoke than mirrors really).


[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
Post by: TonyS on December 09, 2016, 04:55:39 PM
Latest manufacturer to come under investigation according to press reports today is PORSCHE - who just happen to be part of the VW group so you can guess where this is likely to go.
Title: Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
Post by: John Ratsey on December 09, 2016, 05:48:31 PM
The Vehicle Emissions Testing programme report at https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/vehicle-emissions-testing-programme-conclusions (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/vehicle-emissions-testing-programme-conclusions) makes interesting reading. Figures 5-1 compares the VW NOx for the normal and reversed testing cycle while 5-2 shows a similar graph for a normal vehicle while there is also a useful discussion of emissions control systems.
Title: Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
Post by: culzean on December 09, 2016, 06:35:51 PM
I don't like the way they show results for different vehicles and underneath state that you should not make comparisons based on the graph because tests were carried out under different conditions wtf ! Why bother putting results on one graph when you can't compare them - makes it meaningless and not the way I was taught to draw a graph (the whole purpose of putting any results in graph form is so that people can have an easy visual comparison).
Title: Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
Post by: John Ratsey on December 09, 2016, 06:51:05 PM
I don't like the way they show results for different vehicles and underneath state that you should not make comparisons based on the graph because tests were carried out under different conditions wtf ! Why bother putting results on one graph when you can't compare them - makes it meaningless and not the way I was taught to draw a graph (the whole purpose of putting any results in graph form is so that people can have an easy visual comparison).
They are probably trying to prepare the ground for arguing that the limits for acceptable results from real work testing need to be generous in order to allow for the variable conditions which will be encountered. Once that wriggle room has been granted to the manufacturers we will probably find that there is no improvement in the emissions. Governments need to provide other incentives (eg increased taxes) to steer purchasers away from diesels as part of the need to improve air quality. I was hoping that this might have been done in the recent budget statement but no such luck.
Title: Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
Post by: guest5079 on December 10, 2016, 11:36:06 AM
This am on the TV was an interview with I think a Thoracic  consultant. He explained that the earlier a person is subjected to pollution the greater the effect. The biggest problem is 'Soot' the stuff that used to give London and other large cities it's smog and yet diesels are pumping this out all day and every day.
He wants Britain to follow the French et al in banning diesels from cities. Personally 2025 is far to way into the future, the manufacturers will have to get a move on and deal and stop trying to blackmail governments.
Mr Cameron is reported as saying to a group of Americans that he lost his job because of the populace vote, well can't we do the same over diesels?
Title: Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
Post by: John Ratsey on December 10, 2016, 12:18:58 PM
Re the above: Doctors Against Diesel http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-38274792 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-38274792). 

An Ultra Low Emissions Zone is also being introduced for central London 2020 https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone (https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone) but that is only a small part of the conurbation. It also still allow Euro 6 diesels most of which, the testing reveals, currently produce significantly more emissions than the euro 6 standard. Unless TFL edit their requirement to "confirmed by independent testing to comply with Euro 6" then there will still be more nasties than necessary in the atmosphere.

The right signals from government would get people buying petrol not diesel. I anticipate busy sales of small diesels with claimed low CO2 immediately prior to the VED change on 1st April 2017 and once bought, they will be around for a while.
Title: Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
Post by: culzean on December 10, 2016, 12:52:07 PM
All this obfuscation and delaying reminds me of asbestos,  people knew about the dangers of asbestos in the 1920's - but nothing was done until a few decades ago - vested interests cannot be underestimated when it comes to dealing with health issues.  Unfortunately the European motor industry had well and truly hitched itself to the Diesel engine and did a good PR job on politicians who understand the law (lets face it,  majority of them trained as lawyers) but are woefully inadequate in understanding anything technical or scientific,  and are easily led down the wrong path.


 http://www.foe.org.au/anti-nuclear/issues/oz/britbombs/guinea-pigs (http://www.foe.org.au/anti-nuclear/issues/oz/britbombs/guinea-pigs)

British soldiers were lined up to watch the atomic tests in Australia - a lot of them later died from cancers of various forms, they believed and trusted their superiors and believed they somehow knew better (and maybe even had the soldiers best interests at heart - big mistake ! ),  but you have to learn the hard way that a lot of people just follow blindly either through ignorance or laziness, and to them free thinking is tantamount to treason.

I always say that Diesel exhaust may be low in CO2 (which is present in normal fresh air and actually not harmful to humans unless the concentration gets so high that it it suffocates them - and it has no lasting effects) but it is high in many other things which are lethal to humans and are cumulative.
Title: Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
Post by: John Ratsey on January 09, 2017, 04:30:39 PM
It appears that some UK VW owners are planning to seek compensation http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38552828 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38552828). Or perhaps its some lawyers seeing the potential opportunity to get a slice of pay-out.

I still think that the government should be seeking compensation for loss of VED due to mis-classification of the vehicles. VW should pay the difference  until each offending vehicle is scrapped.
Title: Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
Post by: John Ratsey on January 13, 2017, 01:43:40 PM
More about the findings in the USA http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38603723 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38603723).
Title: Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
Post by: culzean on January 13, 2017, 02:49:20 PM
The worst part of that article is VW claim that the defeat device did not break European law wtf?  I would be interested to see how the Europeans deal with that one on the world stage, that EU colluded with car makers to make falsifying of tests legal  - if it is true then European law is not worth the paper it is written on (or parchment or Vellum or whatever).

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jun/20/european-commission-warned-car-maker-suspected-cheating-five-years-vw-scandal (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jun/20/european-commission-warned-car-maker-suspected-cheating-five-years-vw-scandal)     :-X
Title: Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
Post by: guest5079 on January 14, 2017, 11:26:08 AM
A few years back now, if a remand prisoner had to go to our local Magistrates Court, they had to be attached to a police officer. One day, I drew a short straw. Because there was no secure accommodation, I had to remain attached while he spoke with his brief. He was told to plead guilty. He replied, but you have been telling me to plead not guilty. Solicitor said, yes I know but we've given the legal aid a run so just plead guilty. Short while later said Solicitor said to my Inspector, I am fed up with keep getting fixed penalty tickets. My Inspectors reply was park your car in the car park like ordinary people have to do. The reply, I am not bothered I just stick it on my legal aid bill. When I mentioned about the conversation re legal aid I was told to keep my mouth shut or I would be done for breaching confidentiality. Five of my colleagues and I in a knife attack case were all called liars in court. When challenged afterwards, the Solicitor merely said, I've got to make it look as if I am trying. Many deserving people are now denied Legal Aid because of the huge amount of money that was fiddled. Lawyers never give you anything but an opinion with the let out if it's wrong. Cynical? Me? Lawyers make laws that they can argue about for years. What's my point? the VW case should be a slam dunk guilty case BUT will it? NO you watch the big names in the Barrister field when the British case gets anywhere near a court room.
Before Lawyers start crying foul, all I am doing is quoting my experience I do not in any way suggest all lawyers are anything but honest. 
Title: Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
Post by: culzean on January 14, 2017, 11:30:21 AM
Plenty of laws,  but justice is scarce - many times people get the result they can afford.  Many times there will be a cover up if high level people are involved (like members of the EU commission) - how did I get so cynical.
Title: Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
Post by: madasafish on January 14, 2017, 02:30:40 PM
We can be pretty sure the EC know whether most EC car makers cheated. Given the influence the industry has on the EC, no action can be expected.
That is irrespective of whether thousand have died as a result of extra air pollution. Given the pollution levels in London and other major cities ,we can safely assume those extra deaths have occurred.

Personally I expect most makers to have cheated... (note the careful choice of wording!) .. as the costs of not doing so when VW were obviously doing it (competitor car analysis would have shown this) as their performance levels claimed were superior to the opposition.

To expect the EC to do anything given the nonsense of mpg figures  is like expecting a drunk to run an anti drinking campaign.


Title: Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
Post by: culzean on May 20, 2017, 09:35:54 AM
http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/honest-johns-motoring-agony-column/2017-05/honest-johns-motoring-agony-column-13-05-2017-part-2/ (http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/honest-johns-motoring-agony-column/2017-05/honest-johns-motoring-agony-column-13-05-2017-part-2/)

View on Diesel and hybrid / electric cars, and other random stuff - good reading.............

Like the bit lower down article about VW Golf Mk7 applying brakes for no reason (faulty auto braking).

Also new Vauxhall infotainment system as endured by at least one owner seems much worse than Honda.

Someone has also twigged that plug-in hybrids make unfounded claims for mpg and range - https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/askhj/answer/78824/i-was-misled-about-the-mpg-and-battery-range-on-my-bmw-hybrid---how-should-i-proceed- (https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/askhj/answer/78824/i-was-misled-about-the-mpg-and-battery-range-on-my-bmw-hybrid---how-should-i-proceed-)

I used to work with a guy who had a Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV - his experience was very similar to above,  but he only managed low 30's mpg once battery had expired after a few miles.
Title: Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
Post by: John Ratsey on June 10, 2017, 03:44:28 PM
Note that the goverrnment's air quality consultation https://consult.defra.gov.uk/airquality/air-quality-plan-for-tackling-nitrogen-dioxide/ (https://consult.defra.gov.uk/airquality/air-quality-plan-for-tackling-nitrogen-dioxide/) closes on 15th June.
Title: Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
Post by: John Ratsey on November 16, 2017, 08:43:26 PM
There's an interesting BBC report which has unearthed that government knew about the diesel emission problems at the same time as encouraging people to buy diesel vehicles at http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41985715 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41985715).
Title: Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
Post by: culzean on November 17, 2017, 10:08:22 AM
There's an interesting BBC report which has unearthed that government knew about the diesel emission problems at the same time as encouraging people to buy diesel vehicles at http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41985715 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41985715).

Could also have been due to pressure from EU due to the main producers of Diesel cars being German and French, and it would have damaged their industry.   The dangers of asbestos were also known as early as 1920's but without anything to replace it the downsides were hushed up and many people died as a result.
Title: Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
Post by: John Ratsey on May 17, 2018, 02:31:57 PM
See this report http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-44155590 about the UK government being taken to the European Court of Justice over air quality failings. Perhaps it's time for the affected European governments to sue the manufacturers of diesel vehicles which don't achieved the claimed emisssions. That could raise the cash needed to pay any fine imposed by the ECJ.