Author Topic: Performance of genuine vs aftermarket cat  (Read 2514 times)

billyausten

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Performance of genuine vs aftermarket cat
« on: March 09, 2021, 11:18:00 PM »
Can anyone offer any thoughts on if their cars performance altered (for better or worse) having changed from a genuine cat to an aftermarket one? (Ie BM)? By performance I mean both power and economy.

Also has anyone had any MOT issues with an aftermarket one not being up to the job?

Lastly, has anyone DIY experience of swapping one? Do the lambda sensors come out cleanly or will they likely be stuck fast?

Thanks.
Current: '08 GE3 Sport, '97 CE1 Aerodeck 2.2iES
Previous Hondas: CA5 CC1 EE8 EE9 CC9 CH1 ED7 ZE1 CN1 CE1. - Non Honda: E-RNN14 GTiR E-BNR32 GTR

Jocko

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Re: Performance of genuine vs aftermarket cat
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2021, 06:54:42 AM »
I watched the garage replace mine. My middlebox had failed, and on trying to replace it, the mechanic could not split the cat from the centre section. I suggested just replacing the cat as well (£85 - new for old), so while we waited for the cat to be delivered we removed the old one. The sensors unscrewed easily, and the cat was unbolted from the manifold with no problems. The new cat arrived by the time we had done that and was fitted quickly. Everything went back together easily, and there was no change in performance or mpg. Since then, it has passed MOT tests on several occasions with excellent figures.

billyausten

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Re: Performance of genuine vs aftermarket cat
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2021, 07:44:59 PM »
Thank you Jocko. I'm trying to understand why the OE honda cat has significantly more valuable material within if there is no functional difference. My initial thought was that the extra platinum etc allowed it to be a more effective catalyst whilst being less restrictive. Maybe so in 2002, but technology may just have caught up almost 20 years later for the cheap BM ones etc.
Current: '08 GE3 Sport, '97 CE1 Aerodeck 2.2iES
Previous Hondas: CA5 CC1 EE8 EE9 CC9 CH1 ED7 ZE1 CN1 CE1. - Non Honda: E-RNN14 GTiR E-BNR32 GTR

Jocko

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Re: Performance of genuine vs aftermarket cat
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2021, 09:20:12 PM »
Maybe a dyno test would show a difference but a 70 year old driving a 12 year old car, less so.

sparky Paul

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Re: Performance of genuine vs aftermarket cat
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2021, 09:44:07 PM »
Modern cats uses a different manufacturing process which uses a fraction of the precious metals, and actually perform better than the older types. Replacement cats can therefore be much smaller - and hence even cheaper than those fitted to modern cars.

So yes, it's just improved technology.

embee

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Re: Performance of genuine vs aftermarket cat
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2021, 10:49:54 PM »
Need to be a little cautious when making comparisons. The UK may well be different to many other countries (Germany for example, or USA) where only type approved (TUV etc) parts can be fitted and these must comply with original manufaturers performance specifications for emissions.
Here we don't have "in-use compliance testing" in the same way that other countries do (vehicle must meet certification standards on a full emission test), we just have an MOT check. The checks done at the MOT are pretty crude and really only tell you if the basic emission control systems are working, there is feedback, the A/F is controlling about right, and the idle and fast idle emissions are within a test limit. This bears no resemblance whatsoever to a certification test, an aftermarket cat would very probably perform way below the required level to comply with certifcation standards of a drive cycle.
The mass flows at idle and fast idle are trivial, and the amount of catalyst material required to convert the regulated pollutants in that mass is minimal compared to a cold start full drive cycle.
I don't know what the actual regs are concerning aftermarket emission equipment in the UK, I'm pretty sure it isn't regulated as such.
Engine power is unlikely to be affected, it's a simple job to reproduce the monolith cell pattern and density which is what determines backpressure. I suspect the monoliths may well come from OE equipment factories, the ceramic is the cheap part, the precious metal loading is what costs the money. Even a plain washcoat will be active to a small extent.

bus_ter

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Re: Performance of genuine vs aftermarket cat
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2021, 03:39:34 AM »
I watched the garage replace mine. My middlebox had failed, and on trying to replace it, the mechanic could not split the cat from the centre section. I suggested just replacing the cat as well (£85 - new for old), so while we waited for the cat to be delivered we removed the old one. The sensors unscrewed easily, and the cat was unbolted from the manifold with no problems. The new cat arrived by the time we had done that and was fitted quickly. Everything went back together easily, and there was no change in performance or mpg. Since then, it has passed MOT tests on several occasions with excellent figures.

Did you pay them, or did they pay you to keep your CAT?

sparky Paul

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Re: Performance of genuine vs aftermarket cat
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2021, 09:03:16 AM »
Need to be a little cautious when making comparisons. The UK may well be different to many other countries (Germany for example, or USA) where only type approved (TUV etc) parts can be fitted and these must comply with original manufaturers performance specifications for emissions.

It is illegal to sell non - type approved cats in the UK for fitment to vehicles registered after 1st March 2001.

I remember being able to buy both types, and them selling off stock of non-approved cats very cheaply before the legislation came into force - 2008/2009 time?

Jocko

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Re: Performance of genuine vs aftermarket cat
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2021, 09:44:34 AM »
Did you pay them, or did they pay you to keep your CAT?
As with many aftermarket part prices, the price quoted (in my case, £85) is the price when you return a used, faulty, damaged part. The same goes for callipers, alternators, starter motors etc. If you do not have a part to return, then the price is higher, sometimes considerably so.

embee

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Re: Performance of genuine vs aftermarket cat
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2021, 10:31:40 AM »
It is illegal to sell non - type approved cats in the UK for fitment to vehicles registered after 1st March 2001.

I wonder what the requirements are for such approval regarding emission performance? There's no way an aftermarket exhaust parts manufacturer could possibly afford to do a full certification emission test on every model of car they make components for, I don't know what the approval procedure consists of for aftermarket bits.
It's academic though, if it's legal to buy and fit the parts then crack on.  :D

sparky Paul

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Re: Performance of genuine vs aftermarket cat
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2021, 11:07:27 AM »
I wonder what the requirements are for such approval regarding emission performance? There's no way an aftermarket exhaust parts manufacturer could possibly afford to do a full certification emission test on every model of car they make components for, I don't know what the approval procedure consists of for aftermarket bits.

Aftermarket manufacturers submit the specifications for their parts in order to obtain each individual type approval, so it's basically self-policing. Presumably, all of the cat designs that they manufacture will be tested, and in their submission, the actual cat used in the manufacture of each replacement unit will have to meet or exceed the manufacturer's original spec.

Sample parts are tested regularly for non compliance by the DoT's market surveillance unit.

Some stuff here

https://www.klarius.eu/type-approval-automotive-components/

Jocko

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Re: Performance of genuine vs aftermarket cat
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2021, 11:14:28 AM »
I purchased the cat from a large, reputable motor factor selling parts supplied by an even larger exhaust parts supplier. I think mine was Bosal. It is amazing how many vehicles use the same exhaust parts, particularly cats, as if manufacturers have a pattern they build around. So Honda/Ford/Toyota designing a new system, decide, "Right, we will use a type X cat", and the cat is manufactured to the type X pattern.

culzean

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Re: Performance of genuine vs aftermarket cat
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2021, 02:18:07 PM »
I purchased the cat from a large, reputable motor factor selling parts supplied by an even larger exhaust parts supplier. I think mine was Bosal. It is amazing how many vehicles use the same exhaust parts, particularly cats, as if manufacturers have a pattern they build around. So Honda/Ford/Toyota designing a new system, decide, "Right, we will use a type X cat", and the cat is manufactured to the type X pattern.

It makes sense to use common parts wherever possible to keep costs down - a great many of the parts in modern cars are not made by the company who have their name on the car badge.  There is a vast infrastructure of companies who specialise in certain parts.  There are only a couple of companies who make computer and TV screen ( I think LG and Samsung ) they sell screens to others makers like Sony, Panasonic etc who install their own electronics and software.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

embee

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Re: Performance of genuine vs aftermarket cat
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2021, 03:38:35 PM »
Presumably, all of the cat designs that they manufacture will be tested, and in their submission, the actual cat used in the manufacture of each replacement unit will have to meet or exceed the manufacturer's original spec.
https://www.klarius.eu/type-approval-automotive-components/

Useful link. However, there is a key paragraph which kind of puts a question mark on things. It sort of reflects what was in the back of my mind when I posted earlier, wasn't sure of things.

"While type-approval is mandatory for exhausts, CATs and DPFs in the EU, in the UK exhausts are exempt from certification. It is currently illegal to sell non-type approved CATs for vehicles that were registered after the 1st March 2001, while all Euro 5 and most Euro 4 DPFs must be type-approved to be legally compliant. In the UK it is not currently illegal to fit a non-type approved exhaust, but fitting such a part to a vehicle that is under warranty could void it. It will also be illegal if driven abroad."
« Last Edit: March 11, 2021, 04:02:16 PM by embee »

culzean

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Re: Performance of genuine vs aftermarket cat
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2021, 04:55:11 PM »
Presumably, all of the cat designs that they manufacture will be tested, and in their submission, the actual cat used in the manufacture of each replacement unit will have to meet or exceed the manufacturer's original spec.
https://www.klarius.eu/type-approval-automotive-components/

Useful link. However, there is a key paragraph which kind of puts a question mark on things. It sort of reflects what was in the back of my mind when I posted earlier, wasn't sure of things.

"While type-approval is mandatory for exhausts, CATs and DPFs in the EU, in the UK exhausts are exempt from certification. It is currently illegal to sell non-type approved CATs for vehicles that were registered after the 1st March 2001, while all Euro 5 and most Euro 4 DPFs must be type-approved to be legally compliant. In the UK it is not currently illegal to fit a non-type approved exhaust, but fitting such a part to a vehicle that is under warranty could void it. It will also be illegal if driven abroad."

Who is gonna check except at MOT time, and car is at least 3 years old then. As long as the vehicle passes emissions MOT test in UK are the French going to haul your vehicle onto ramps at Calais for a 'CAT scan' before they allow you into EU.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

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