Author Topic: Corroded Brake Pipe & Other Woes - ***Video Link Attached***.  (Read 1182 times)

Jocko

  • Approved Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7332
  • Country: scotland
  • Fuel economy:
  • My Honda: 2006 GD5 Jazz 1.2 i-DSi S in Vivid Blue Pearl
Re: Corroded Brake Pipe & Other Woes - MOT Failure.
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2021, 04:33:12 PM »
The Jazz handbrake, certainly on the Mk 1, is rubbish. I was told to apply the footbrake firmly and hold it, then apply the handbrake. It works a treat if you follow that procedure.

sparky Paul

  • Approved Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3382
  • Country: gb
  • My Honda: 2015 GG6 Jazz EX 1.4 I-VTEC / 2008 GE3 Jazz SE 1.4 i-DSI
Re: Corroded Brake Pipe & Other Woes - MOT Failure.
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2021, 06:44:29 PM »
I still need to fettle the handbrake - brand new caliper and pads and it's still pretty poor but I'll get it tightened up to the max. It's working OK but certainly not what you'd expect on any other car.

The pads take a while to bed into old discs, and the hand brake will feel crap until they do.

When adjusting, you need to make sure that the automatic adjusters in the calipers are fully adjusted with the foot brake before touching the handbrake cable adjuster, and then you take up the cable slack and no more.

If you over adjust, the automatic adjusters will not work properly as the levers on the calipers need to fully retract to index the adjusters.

gtd2000

  • Topic Starter
  • Approved Member
  • *
  • Posts: 138
  • Country: scotland
  • Tell it as it is..NOT how it should be!
  • My Honda: 2006 Honda Jazz
Re: Corroded Brake Pipe & Other Woes - MOT Failure.
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2021, 09:59:13 PM »
The Jazz handbrake, certainly on the Mk 1, is rubbish. I was told to apply the footbrake firmly and hold it, then apply the handbrake. It works a treat if you follow that procedure.

I've tried that previously but didn't notice any real difference but perhaps that was due to the calipers and handbrake mechanism?

gtd2000

  • Topic Starter
  • Approved Member
  • *
  • Posts: 138
  • Country: scotland
  • Tell it as it is..NOT how it should be!
  • My Honda: 2006 Honda Jazz
Re: Corroded Brake Pipe & Other Woes - MOT Failure.
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2021, 10:01:31 PM »
I still need to fettle the handbrake - brand new caliper and pads and it's still pretty poor but I'll get it tightened up to the max. It's working OK but certainly not what you'd expect on any other car.

The pads take a while to bed into old discs, and the hand brake will feel crap until they do.

When adjusting, you need to make sure that the automatic adjusters in the calipers are fully adjusted with the foot brake before touching the handbrake cable adjuster, and then you take up the cable slack and no more.

If you over adjust, the automatic adjusters will not work properly as the levers on the calipers need to fully retract to index the adjusters.

Does that mean I should slacken the cable off again then take the car out for some hard braking action, then adjust the cable?

Or is it just a case of pumping the brakes while stationary?

sparky Paul

  • Approved Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3382
  • Country: gb
  • My Honda: 2015 GG6 Jazz EX 1.4 I-VTEC / 2008 GE3 Jazz SE 1.4 i-DSI
Re: Corroded Brake Pipe & Other Woes - MOT Failure.
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2021, 10:32:06 PM »
Does that mean I should slacken the cable off again then take the car out for some hard braking action, then adjust the cable?

Or is it just a case of pumping the brakes while stationary?

After fitting a new caliper or cable/s, usual advice is to slacken the cable off completely, before pumping the brakes (stationary with engine running) several times to adjust the calipers up. However, it is sufficient to just make sure that both handbrake levers on the back of the calipers are fully retracted against the stop. If not, wind the adjuster until there is enough slack to allow this.

Then adjust the centre hand brake adjuster so any slack is taken up, but ensure that the caliper hand brake levers still fully retract when the handbrake is released.

The thing to remember is that the adjuster is for the cables only, not the handbrake itself. All you are doing is removing any slack.

gtd2000

  • Topic Starter
  • Approved Member
  • *
  • Posts: 138
  • Country: scotland
  • Tell it as it is..NOT how it should be!
  • My Honda: 2006 Honda Jazz
Re: Corroded Brake Pipe & Other Woes - MOT Failure.
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2021, 11:54:32 PM »
Does that mean I should slacken the cable off again then take the car out for some hard braking action, then adjust the cable?

Or is it just a case of pumping the brakes while stationary?

After fitting a new caliper or cable/s, usual advice is to slacken the cable off completely, before pumping the brakes (stationary with engine running) several times to adjust the calipers up. However, it is sufficient to just make sure that both handbrake levers on the back of the calipers are fully retracted against the stop. If not, wind the adjuster until there is enough slack to allow this.

Then adjust the centre hand brake adjuster so any slack is taken up, but ensure that the caliper hand brake levers still fully retract when the handbrake is released.

The thing to remember is that the adjuster is for the cables only, not the handbrake itself. All you are doing is removing any slack.

Well I had another go at this today and it appears that the handbrake is working better than ever before.

I was in an out of the car more times than I can count, adjusting the cable and checking to see if the wheels would still rotate.

I've taken video of the situation and will post that as soon as I cobble together the footage.

sparky Paul

  • Approved Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3382
  • Country: gb
  • My Honda: 2015 GG6 Jazz EX 1.4 I-VTEC / 2008 GE3 Jazz SE 1.4 i-DSI
Re: Corroded Brake Pipe & Other Woes - MOT Failure.
« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2021, 12:29:28 AM »
Just make sure of this bit, or you will have trouble with the auto adjusters in the future.

ensure that the caliper hand brake levers still fully retract when the handbrake is released.

The thing to remember is that the adjuster is for the cables only, not the handbrake itself. All you are doing is removing any slack.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2021, 12:32:31 AM by sparky Paul »

gtd2000

  • Topic Starter
  • Approved Member
  • *
  • Posts: 138
  • Country: scotland
  • Tell it as it is..NOT how it should be!
  • My Honda: 2006 Honda Jazz
Re: Corroded Brake Pipe & Other Woes - MOT Failure.
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2021, 08:29:56 PM »
Just make sure of this bit, or you will have trouble with the auto adjusters in the future.

ensure that the caliper hand brake levers still fully retract when the handbrake is released.

The thing to remember is that the adjuster is for the cables only, not the handbrake itself. All you are doing is removing any slack.

Car passed the MOT today but it was a close run on the handbrake performance.

The tester advised that he previously owned a Civic with a similar handbrake performance.

The handbrake is better than at any time in our ownership but it really isn't what you'd expect.

I did find that the rear right handbrake mechanism could lock on, despite releasing the handbrake lever?

I spoke with the vendor of the new calipers and he reckons the caliper might not have been installed correctly?

The left one is just fine and both sides were set up identically, any ideas?

He advised that the right rear caliper piston should be screwed out, then back in fully to "reset" the actuator?

sparky Paul

  • Approved Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3382
  • Country: gb
  • My Honda: 2015 GG6 Jazz EX 1.4 I-VTEC / 2008 GE3 Jazz SE 1.4 i-DSI
Re: Corroded Brake Pipe & Other Woes - MOT Failure.
« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2021, 09:14:40 PM »
The handbrake is better than at any time in our ownership but it really isn't what you'd expect.

Never is on the Jazz. You'll never get fantastic brake tester numbers, especially with new pads.

I did find that the rear right handbrake mechanism could lock on, despite releasing the handbrake lever?

I spoke with the vendor of the new calipers and he reckons the caliper might not have been installed correctly?

The left one is just fine and both sides were set up identically, any ideas?

Just make sure the cables go in through the correct route, so they are square to the bracket and not skewed. Can't think off hand what else you could get wrong with the caliper end. I presume everything else is in order, slider pins all free, etc..

He advised that the right rear caliper piston should be screwed out, then back in fully to "reset" the actuator?

Never heard of that one, only ever had to do that with sticking calipers to 'exercise' them a bit.

gtd2000

  • Topic Starter
  • Approved Member
  • *
  • Posts: 138
  • Country: scotland
  • Tell it as it is..NOT how it should be!
  • My Honda: 2006 Honda Jazz
Re: Corroded Brake Pipe & Other Woes - ***Video Link Attached***.
« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2021, 12:32:55 AM »
Here's the actual situation.

https://youtu.be/qews-vza5Dg

Car passed the MoT on Friday, so all is good but I'm still very unimpressed with the handbrake.

General braking is certainly improved and that's a positive.

bill888

  • Approved Member
  • *
  • Posts: 257
  • Country: gb
Re: Corroded Brake Pipe & Other Woes - ***Video Link Attached***.
« Reply #25 on: February 28, 2021, 06:13:58 AM »
I watched your video.  You counted 7 'clicks' when applying the hand brake.

Was that after applying maximum effort ?

Fwiw, if memory serves me right, I had a problem where my 57 Jazz (original calipers and pads) would roll on even a very slight incline with handbrake applied normally (around 4 clicks) due to the cable perhaps stretching over time.  Yes, if I was pull the handbrake up further to 6 or more, it would hold the car but that requires far more effort than normal.

I can't remember exactly what I did a few years ago, but after some experimentation, I think the way I resolved it was to adjust the cable until the disc just starts to drag with handbrake set at 1 click (or may be 2, I can't remember).   With handbrake disengaged, when I wiggle the cable at the rubber boot at the caliper, there is a bit of slack in the cable - ie. cable is not pulling on the caliper.

Handbrake has been fine ever since for past 4 years.  No issues with overheating or dragging rear brakes. On 7 clicks, the handbrake can hold the car on one particular Very steep road nearby.  Otherwise, only 3 to 5 clicks required depending on gradient.

I just checked the handbrake operation. 3-4 clicks 'normal' operation.  I can only engage 7 clicks at most. There is some further movement of the handbrake lever but 8th click won't engage.


Changing the subject, what make of brake pads did you fit?  Did you fit any shims as I couldn't see any on the outward facing brake pad?
« Last Edit: February 28, 2021, 10:15:28 AM by bill888 »
2007(57) Jazz 1.4SE CVT-7 (GE3 - made in China)

gtd2000

  • Topic Starter
  • Approved Member
  • *
  • Posts: 138
  • Country: scotland
  • Tell it as it is..NOT how it should be!
  • My Honda: 2006 Honda Jazz
Re: Corroded Brake Pipe & Other Woes - ***Video Link Attached***.
« Reply #26 on: February 28, 2021, 10:09:18 AM »
I watched your video.  You counted 7 'clicks' when applying the hand brake.

Was that after applying maximum effort ?

Fwiw, if memory serves me right, I had a problem where my 57 Jazz (original calipers and pads) would roll on even a very slight incline with handbrake applied normally (around 4 clicks) due to the cable perhaps stretching over time.  Yes, if I was pull the handbrake up further to 6 or more, it would hold the car but that requires far more effort than normal.

I can't remember exactly what I did a few years ago, but after some experimentation, I think the way I resolved it was to adjust the cable until the disc just starts to drag with handbrake set at 1 click (or may be 2, I can't remember).   With handbrake disengaged, when I wiggle the cable at the rubber boot at the caliper, there is a bit of slack in the cable - ie. cable is not pulling on the caliper.

Handbrake has been fine ever since for past 4 years.  No issues with overheating or dragging rear brakes. On 7 clicks, the handbrake can hold the car on one particular very steep road nearby.  Otherwise, only 4 or 5 clicks required.

I just checked the handbrake operation. 3-4 clicks normal operation.  I can only engage 7 clicks at most. There is some further movement of the handbrake lever but 8th click won't engage.


Changing the subject, what make of brake pads did you fit?  Did you fit any shims as I couldn't see any on the outward facing brake pad?

I was counting, mainly to see at what point that brake felt like it was being applied firmly. Off the top of my head, I think that 7 clicks is the point at which my KIA handbrake is supposed to be fully engaged.

I don't recall the brand of the pads but can look it up later - it's the GF's car and the parts were ordered through her eBay account.

Shims were not fitted but I'm assuming that as the normal braking is good, that shouldn't be an issue? The pads are new, so presumably there's more than enough width? Isn't the shim primarily used for noise reduction?

bill888

  • Approved Member
  • *
  • Posts: 257
  • Country: gb
Re: Corroded Brake Pipe & Other Woes - ***Video Link Attached***.
« Reply #27 on: February 28, 2021, 10:27:49 AM »
I just had a look at the service manual. I couldn't find the instructions for rear disc brakes. These are for drum brakes.  See below.

It looks like I more or less followed the same procedure.  But I got a hunch with handbrake at 1 click position and one of the rear wheels starting to drag, the other one spun freely, so I think I may have adjusted it to ensure both wheels started to drag.

One issue with hand brake being fully locked at 9 or 10 clicks, is there is far too much travel in the handbrake lever in normal use (not steep hills).


Yes, shims are for anti-noise only.

---------------

1. Pull the parking brake lever (A) with 196 N (20 kgf, 44 lbf) of force to fully apply the parking brake. The parking brake lever should be locked within the specified number of clicks (B).

 Lever locked clicks: 7−10 




Adjustment 

NOTE: After servicing the rear brake shoe, loosen the parking brake adjusting nut, start the engine, and depress the brake pedal several times to set the self-adjusting brake before adjusting the parking brake.
 
1. Block the front wheels, then raise the rear of the vehicle, and make sure it is securely supported.

2. Remove the console cover.

3. Pull the parking brake lever up one click.

4. Tighten the adjusting nut (A) until the parking brakes drag slightly when the rear wheels are turned.
 
5. Release the parking brake lever fully, and check that the parking brakes do not drag when the rear wheels are turned. Readjust if necessary.
 
6. Make sure the parking brakes are fully applied when the parking brake lever is pulled up fully.

7. Reinstall the console cover.

2007(57) Jazz 1.4SE CVT-7 (GE3 - made in China)

Jocko

  • Approved Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7332
  • Country: scotland
  • Fuel economy:
  • My Honda: 2006 GD5 Jazz 1.2 i-DSi S in Vivid Blue Pearl
Re: Corroded Brake Pipe & Other Woes - ***Video Link Attached***.
« Reply #28 on: February 28, 2021, 10:47:13 AM »
if I was pull the handbrake up further to 6 or more, it would hold the car but that requires far more effort than normal.
As I have said many times before, if you apply the footbrake firmly, then pull up the handbrake, it requires minimal effort and applies the handbrake firmly. I have never found a hill where the handbrake would not hold without slip, either facing uphill or down, using this method. It was a Honda mechanic who gave me this tip.

bill888

  • Approved Member
  • *
  • Posts: 257
  • Country: gb
Re: Corroded Brake Pipe & Other Woes - ***Video Link Attached***.
« Reply #29 on: February 28, 2021, 11:16:23 AM »
I always have foot firmly pressed on brake pedal before applying handbrake, and to prevent the car rolling especially on a slope.

When I referred to 'more effort', I meant to say I should not have needed to apply handbrake with upto 6 clicks to hold car on a slight slope, when 3 to 4 clicks was only needed in the past (when car new).
« Last Edit: February 28, 2021, 11:33:44 AM by bill888 »
2007(57) Jazz 1.4SE CVT-7 (GE3 - made in China)

Tags:
 

anything
Back to top