Clubjazz - Honda Jazz & HR-V Forums

Honda Jazz, HR-V & Hybrid Forums => Honda Jazz Mk1 2002-2008 => Topic started by: gtd2000 on February 18, 2021, 11:06:05 PM

Title: Corroded Brake Pipe & Other Woes - ***Video Link Attached***.
Post by: gtd2000 on February 18, 2021, 11:06:05 PM
Had the GF's trusty 2006 1.4 DSi in for the MOT today and it failed, mostly on the brakes, plus a grocery list of advisories which generally amount to nothing at all really, mainly greased up brake pipes  ;D

The rear brakes were dragging - I may have over tweaked the handbrake cable yesterday but the handbrake was only giving 12% max, on the test and it needs 15% supposedly to pass?

The tester advised that the handbrake mechanism was stiff and was not returning or moving across the full range - I've no idea if this is accurate but I can easily agree the handbrake was very poor indeed - wish it had drums like the previous Jazz, which never had any brake issues that I recall.

On that basis, I've ordered two rear calipers and a new front O/S caliper. It cost 115 for all three delivered, so that's a pretty decent price, in my opinion.
No point in messing around with sticky calipers and Scottish winters, as I've found that to be an exercise in futility.
I'd already replaced the very sticky front N/S caliper on Wednesday. so that's a full set of new calipers, all round, for the re-test.

There was mention of the rearward brake pipe as a failure and it sounds like it's not that last portion of the brake line (I know that it's in pristine condition) into the caliper but a section that goes up and over something, I think I know which part that is but it's been a while since I was last under the car - probably last year?

Does anybody have a diagram of the brake line system, so that I know which section of pipe it is and how long it might be? I see that you can order brake likes ready made on eBay these days but was thinking I might just ask a local place to make one up. I'd be happy to make the lines up myself but it's usually pretty cheap to get one made.

The other item, was a worn track rod end but fortunately there was one in a box of new spares from the old car. (If anybody needs a set of shoes for the drums or the front O/S drop link, just let me know, as they are just gathering dust)


Title: Re: Corroded Brake Pipe & Other Woes - MOT Failure.
Post by: sparky Paul on February 19, 2021, 12:04:27 AM
Usually cheaper to get them made up locally, if you can't be bothered.

It's probably where the two pipes from the front to back go up, outwards, and over the rear beam axle - that's one of the favourite rusty spots. These pipes go right to the ABS modulator at the front offside of the engine bay, and they are a right pain to replace - just look at the shape of them in the pic below.

Access to the bit that rusts is pretty good. If they are beyond cleaning up, I would cut where it's accessible forward of the bad bits and just replace from there to the flexes.  To fit the inline union, hot the steel pipe up to a glow before flaring to get a decent flare with a hand flaring tool. Before cutting, cling film under the reservoir cap to stop the fluid running through, and be ready for a bit spitting out when you hot the pipe up.

If it's at the inner end of the trailing arms, that bit rusts too, the easiest option is to replace the complete pipe from the inner flexy to the outer flexy.


Pic of the brake lines here

(https://www.parts-honda.uk/thumbs/honda_cars/auto/17SAA601/IMGE/930_930/BRAKE-LINES-ABS--RH--DISK-Honda-Cars-JAZZ-2006-14-SE-5-speed-manual-B__2513.jpg)
Title: Re: Corroded Brake Pipe & Other Woes - MOT Failure.
Post by: Jocko on February 19, 2021, 08:14:24 AM
I just got the garage to make and replace my rear brake pipes on my mechanic's advice. Then they did the retest.
Title: Re: Corroded Brake Pipe & Other Woes - MOT Failure.
Post by: culzean on February 19, 2021, 08:59:02 AM
On the MK1 my wife had to have one of the rear pipes replaced,  the ( Honda ) garage just replaced the back 300mm where the pipe went onto the torsion beam, before it joined up with flexi.  I could see the reason for that part going rusty though, the length of the pipe from ABS pump had a plastic covering moulded onto the pipe,  however someone at Honda thought it was a great idea to strip the plastic off the pipe for the last 300mm or so and leave bare steel pipe in one of the most exposed places.  It is different on the MK2,  the plastic covering has been left on, so unless a big rock hits the pipe and splits the plastic it should be fine, although that part of pipe is pretty well protected from impact a lot of the spray gets sucked under there.. 
Title: Re: Corroded Brake Pipe & Other Woes - MOT Failure.
Post by: sparky Paul on February 19, 2021, 09:34:44 AM
On the MK1 my wife had to have one of the rear pipes replaced,  the ( Honda ) garage just replaced the back 300mm where the pipe went onto the torsion beam, before it joined up with flexi.

That's all I would do, replacing the whole pipe to the front looks a nightmare.
Title: Re: Corroded Brake Pipe & Other Woes - MOT Failure.
Post by: gtd2000 on February 19, 2021, 10:18:36 AM
Usually cheaper to get them made up locally, if you can't be bothered.

It's probably where the two pipes from the front to back go up, outwards, and over the rear beam axle - that's one of the favourite rusty spots. These pipes go right to the ABS modulator at the front offside of the engine bay, and they are a right pain to replace - just look at the shape of them in the pic below.

Access to the bit that rusts is pretty good. If they are beyond cleaning up, I would cut where it's accessible forward of the bad bits and just replace from there to the flexes.  To fit the inline union, hot the steel pipe up to a glow before flaring to get a decent flare with a hand flaring tool. Before cutting, cling film under the reservoir cap to stop the fluid running through, and be ready for a bit spitting out when you hot the pipe up.

If it's at the inner end of the trailing arms, that bit rusts too, the easiest option is to replace the complete pipe from the inner flexy to the outer flexy.


Pic of the brake lines here

(https://www.parts-honda.uk/thumbs/honda_cars/auto/17SAA601/IMGE/930_930/BRAKE-LINES-ABS--RH--DISK-Honda-Cars-JAZZ-2006-14-SE-5-speed-manual-B__2513.jpg)

Cracking pic and yes it looks pretty congested up at the front for sure!

I think I'll just phone around, due to the weather, to see if somebody can make up a brake line and fit it at the same time.
Title: Re: Corroded Brake Pipe & Other Woes - MOT Failure.
Post by: Jocko on February 19, 2021, 10:53:55 AM
As I said, why not get the MOT station to do it and retest. I just sat and read my book while they did it all.
Title: Re: Corroded Brake Pipe & Other Woes - MOT Failure.
Post by: gtd2000 on February 19, 2021, 10:57:36 AM
As I said, why not get the MOT station to do it and retest. I just sat and read my book while they did it all.

I've just spoken with a pal that has a tool and a garage to get into, out of the weather, so we're going to do that tomorrow.

All adds to the learning experience, which, in turn saves a good deal of money in my opinion. I agree it would be much more pleasant to just sit and read, while somebody else does the magic though  :D
Title: Re: Corroded Brake Pipe & Other Woes - MOT Failure.
Post by: Jocko on February 19, 2021, 11:05:49 AM
As my son-in-law said. That way they do the pipes they are concerned about. Nothing worse than replacing the wrong pipe.
Title: Re: Corroded Brake Pipe & Other Woes - MOT Failure.
Post by: sparky Paul on February 19, 2021, 11:23:55 AM
As my son-in-law said. That way they do the pipes they are concerned about. Nothing worse than replacing the wrong pipe.

It's always worth making absolutely certain what the tester is referring to when he fails something, it's easy to end up replacing/replacing the wrong bit if you don't. My MOT man usually points anything nasty out during the test, but if not, I make sure I ask.

The fail comment on the MOT certificate is often not very explicit, especially with things like brake pipes.

One of the reasons I like to do my own brake pipes is that most garages throw them on, doing all the bending rough by hand. All perfectly serviceable, but I've seem some really 'artistic' efforts. I try to take a bit more time, copying the shapes of the original pipes with a pipe bender, making it look as original as I can. Even the MOT man has commented that they look great  ;)
Title: Re: Corroded Brake Pipe & Other Woes - MOT Failure.
Post by: sparky Paul on February 19, 2021, 11:30:15 AM
Cracking pic and yes it looks pretty congested up at the front for sure!

It's not only that, I'm sure these lines are attached to the body before anything else, lots of stuff is over them. You'll be pulling out your hair threading the pipes through to the front and around the engine bay, and that's before you start breaking 15 year old clips!

The only sensible option is to join in a bit of pipe to replace the bad end.
Title: Re: Corroded Brake Pipe & Other Woes - MOT Failure.
Post by: gtd2000 on February 20, 2021, 07:12:56 PM
Went down to a pals place today, he has a large barn with a good range of tools.

We had a look at the brake lines and it was very easy to spot the failed section. I'm pretty sure that if I'd been able to get under the car and check things over before the test I could have made things look much better. Alas, due to the weather, this wasn't possible.

Unfortunately, he didn't feel confident doing the repair due to not having a lift.

I spoke with another friend who owns a garage business today, about repairing the brake pipe, he's going to try to squeeze me in next week but he's absolutely rammed with jobs.

Was actually saying he's never seen anything like the current amount of business in the 20 years he's been running the place. This is mainly due to the problems with covid. He's absolutely astonished at the level of demand.

If he can't get it in and repaired, I'll just get the MOT place to do the repair when it goes back for the retest.
Title: Re: Corroded Brake Pipe & Other Woes - MOT Failure.
Post by: sparky Paul on February 20, 2021, 07:24:52 PM
I usually do these sorts of jobs on car ramps, rather than bother a friend who has a pit, but there's no joy in doing it in this weather, or indeed getting covered in brake fluid, diesel, gearbox oil, etc.. It's not going to cost a fortune to get it done by the MOT garage, save your enthusiasm for jobs in the summer.

Because of the covid extensions, I've now got two MOTs out of four that fall in December - I think I will put them through again in the summer to get it back to some sort of normality.
Title: Re: Corroded Brake Pipe & Other Woes - MOT Failure.
Post by: gtd2000 on February 21, 2021, 12:21:02 PM
I usually do these sorts of jobs on car ramps, rather than bother a friend who has a pit, but there's no joy in doing it in this weather, or indeed getting covered in brake fluid, diesel, gearbox oil, etc.. It's not going to cost a fortune to get it done by the MOT garage, save your enthusiasm for jobs in the summer.

Because of the covid extensions, I've now got two MOTs out of four that fall in December - I think I will put them through again in the summer to get it back to some sort of normality.

Yeah, the ramps certainly give decent enough access on a nice dry day, I'm in the same boat as you with my own car, a KIA Ceed SW, used to be a July MoT, now it's a January Mot! Not a great time of year for faffing about underneath it!

Fortunately, mine went through without any problems (same place as the Jazz) but I'll just be more inclined to get a good look at the car in October or early November from now on.
Title: Re: Corroded Brake Pipe & Other Woes - MOT Failure.
Post by: gtd2000 on February 23, 2021, 04:26:20 PM
Well, I got all of the new calipers fitted, ending with the last one, first thing this morning.

Car glides along the road without any hint of dragging now - should be good for 70+MPG now  :D

I still need to fettle the handbrake - brand new caliper and pads and it's still pretty poor but I'll get it tightened up to the max. It's working OK but certainly not what you'd expect on any other car.
Title: Re: Corroded Brake Pipe & Other Woes - MOT Failure.
Post by: Jocko on February 23, 2021, 04:33:12 PM
The Jazz handbrake, certainly on the Mk 1, is rubbish. I was told to apply the footbrake firmly and hold it, then apply the handbrake. It works a treat if you follow that procedure.
Title: Re: Corroded Brake Pipe & Other Woes - MOT Failure.
Post by: sparky Paul on February 23, 2021, 06:44:29 PM
I still need to fettle the handbrake - brand new caliper and pads and it's still pretty poor but I'll get it tightened up to the max. It's working OK but certainly not what you'd expect on any other car.

The pads take a while to bed into old discs, and the hand brake will feel crap until they do.

When adjusting, you need to make sure that the automatic adjusters in the calipers are fully adjusted with the foot brake before touching the handbrake cable adjuster, and then you take up the cable slack and no more.

If you over adjust, the automatic adjusters will not work properly as the levers on the calipers need to fully retract to index the adjusters.
Title: Re: Corroded Brake Pipe & Other Woes - MOT Failure.
Post by: gtd2000 on February 23, 2021, 09:59:13 PM
The Jazz handbrake, certainly on the Mk 1, is rubbish. I was told to apply the footbrake firmly and hold it, then apply the handbrake. It works a treat if you follow that procedure.

I've tried that previously but didn't notice any real difference but perhaps that was due to the calipers and handbrake mechanism?
Title: Re: Corroded Brake Pipe & Other Woes - MOT Failure.
Post by: gtd2000 on February 23, 2021, 10:01:31 PM
I still need to fettle the handbrake - brand new caliper and pads and it's still pretty poor but I'll get it tightened up to the max. It's working OK but certainly not what you'd expect on any other car.

The pads take a while to bed into old discs, and the hand brake will feel crap until they do.

When adjusting, you need to make sure that the automatic adjusters in the calipers are fully adjusted with the foot brake before touching the handbrake cable adjuster, and then you take up the cable slack and no more.

If you over adjust, the automatic adjusters will not work properly as the levers on the calipers need to fully retract to index the adjusters.

Does that mean I should slacken the cable off again then take the car out for some hard braking action, then adjust the cable?

Or is it just a case of pumping the brakes while stationary?
Title: Re: Corroded Brake Pipe & Other Woes - MOT Failure.
Post by: sparky Paul on February 23, 2021, 10:32:06 PM
Does that mean I should slacken the cable off again then take the car out for some hard braking action, then adjust the cable?

Or is it just a case of pumping the brakes while stationary?

After fitting a new caliper or cable/s, usual advice is to slacken the cable off completely, before pumping the brakes (stationary with engine running) several times to adjust the calipers up. However, it is sufficient to just make sure that both handbrake levers on the back of the calipers are fully retracted against the stop. If not, wind the adjuster until there is enough slack to allow this.

Then adjust the centre hand brake adjuster so any slack is taken up, but ensure that the caliper hand brake levers still fully retract when the handbrake is released.

The thing to remember is that the adjuster is for the cables only, not the handbrake itself. All you are doing is removing any slack.
Title: Re: Corroded Brake Pipe & Other Woes - MOT Failure.
Post by: gtd2000 on February 24, 2021, 11:54:32 PM
Does that mean I should slacken the cable off again then take the car out for some hard braking action, then adjust the cable?

Or is it just a case of pumping the brakes while stationary?

After fitting a new caliper or cable/s, usual advice is to slacken the cable off completely, before pumping the brakes (stationary with engine running) several times to adjust the calipers up. However, it is sufficient to just make sure that both handbrake levers on the back of the calipers are fully retracted against the stop. If not, wind the adjuster until there is enough slack to allow this.

Then adjust the centre hand brake adjuster so any slack is taken up, but ensure that the caliper hand brake levers still fully retract when the handbrake is released.

The thing to remember is that the adjuster is for the cables only, not the handbrake itself. All you are doing is removing any slack.

Well I had another go at this today and it appears that the handbrake is working better than ever before.

I was in an out of the car more times than I can count, adjusting the cable and checking to see if the wheels would still rotate.

I've taken video of the situation and will post that as soon as I cobble together the footage.
Title: Re: Corroded Brake Pipe & Other Woes - MOT Failure.
Post by: sparky Paul on February 25, 2021, 12:29:28 AM
Just make sure of this bit, or you will have trouble with the auto adjusters in the future.

ensure that the caliper hand brake levers still fully retract when the handbrake is released.

The thing to remember is that the adjuster is for the cables only, not the handbrake itself. All you are doing is removing any slack.
Title: Re: Corroded Brake Pipe & Other Woes - MOT Failure.
Post by: gtd2000 on February 26, 2021, 08:29:56 PM
Just make sure of this bit, or you will have trouble with the auto adjusters in the future.

ensure that the caliper hand brake levers still fully retract when the handbrake is released.

The thing to remember is that the adjuster is for the cables only, not the handbrake itself. All you are doing is removing any slack.

Car passed the MOT today but it was a close run on the handbrake performance.

The tester advised that he previously owned a Civic with a similar handbrake performance.

The handbrake is better than at any time in our ownership but it really isn't what you'd expect.

I did find that the rear right handbrake mechanism could lock on, despite releasing the handbrake lever?

I spoke with the vendor of the new calipers and he reckons the caliper might not have been installed correctly?

The left one is just fine and both sides were set up identically, any ideas?

He advised that the right rear caliper piston should be screwed out, then back in fully to "reset" the actuator?
Title: Re: Corroded Brake Pipe & Other Woes - MOT Failure.
Post by: sparky Paul on February 26, 2021, 09:14:40 PM
The handbrake is better than at any time in our ownership but it really isn't what you'd expect.

Never is on the Jazz. You'll never get fantastic brake tester numbers, especially with new pads.

I did find that the rear right handbrake mechanism could lock on, despite releasing the handbrake lever?

I spoke with the vendor of the new calipers and he reckons the caliper might not have been installed correctly?

The left one is just fine and both sides were set up identically, any ideas?

Just make sure the cables go in through the correct route, so they are square to the bracket and not skewed. Can't think off hand what else you could get wrong with the caliper end. I presume everything else is in order, slider pins all free, etc..

He advised that the right rear caliper piston should be screwed out, then back in fully to "reset" the actuator?

Never heard of that one, only ever had to do that with sticking calipers to 'exercise' them a bit.
Title: Re: Corroded Brake Pipe & Other Woes - ***Video Link Attached***.
Post by: gtd2000 on February 28, 2021, 12:32:55 AM
Here's the actual situation.

https://youtu.be/qews-vza5Dg (https://youtu.be/qews-vza5Dg)

Car passed the MoT on Friday, so all is good but I'm still very unimpressed with the handbrake.

General braking is certainly improved and that's a positive.
Title: Re: Corroded Brake Pipe & Other Woes - ***Video Link Attached***.
Post by: bill888 on February 28, 2021, 06:13:58 AM
I watched your video.  You counted 7 'clicks' when applying the hand brake.

Was that after applying maximum effort ?

Fwiw, if memory serves me right, I had a problem where my 57 Jazz (original calipers and pads) would roll on even a very slight incline with handbrake applied normally (around 4 clicks) due to the cable perhaps stretching over time.  Yes, if I was pull the handbrake up further to 6 or more, it would hold the car but that requires far more effort than normal.

I can't remember exactly what I did a few years ago, but after some experimentation, I think the way I resolved it was to adjust the cable until the disc just starts to drag with handbrake set at 1 click (or may be 2, I can't remember).   With handbrake disengaged, when I wiggle the cable at the rubber boot at the caliper, there is a bit of slack in the cable - ie. cable is not pulling on the caliper.

Handbrake has been fine ever since for past 4 years.  No issues with overheating or dragging rear brakes. On 7 clicks, the handbrake can hold the car on one particular Very steep road nearby.  Otherwise, only 3 to 5 clicks required depending on gradient.

I just checked the handbrake operation. 3-4 clicks 'normal' operation.  I can only engage 7 clicks at most. There is some further movement of the handbrake lever but 8th click won't engage.


Changing the subject, what make of brake pads did you fit?  Did you fit any shims as I couldn't see any on the outward facing brake pad?
Title: Re: Corroded Brake Pipe & Other Woes - ***Video Link Attached***.
Post by: gtd2000 on February 28, 2021, 10:09:18 AM
I watched your video.  You counted 7 'clicks' when applying the hand brake.

Was that after applying maximum effort ?

Fwiw, if memory serves me right, I had a problem where my 57 Jazz (original calipers and pads) would roll on even a very slight incline with handbrake applied normally (around 4 clicks) due to the cable perhaps stretching over time.  Yes, if I was pull the handbrake up further to 6 or more, it would hold the car but that requires far more effort than normal.

I can't remember exactly what I did a few years ago, but after some experimentation, I think the way I resolved it was to adjust the cable until the disc just starts to drag with handbrake set at 1 click (or may be 2, I can't remember).   With handbrake disengaged, when I wiggle the cable at the rubber boot at the caliper, there is a bit of slack in the cable - ie. cable is not pulling on the caliper.

Handbrake has been fine ever since for past 4 years.  No issues with overheating or dragging rear brakes. On 7 clicks, the handbrake can hold the car on one particular very steep road nearby.  Otherwise, only 4 or 5 clicks required.

I just checked the handbrake operation. 3-4 clicks normal operation.  I can only engage 7 clicks at most. There is some further movement of the handbrake lever but 8th click won't engage.


Changing the subject, what make of brake pads did you fit?  Did you fit any shims as I couldn't see any on the outward facing brake pad?

I was counting, mainly to see at what point that brake felt like it was being applied firmly. Off the top of my head, I think that 7 clicks is the point at which my KIA handbrake is supposed to be fully engaged.

I don't recall the brand of the pads but can look it up later - it's the GF's car and the parts were ordered through her eBay account.

Shims were not fitted but I'm assuming that as the normal braking is good, that shouldn't be an issue? The pads are new, so presumably there's more than enough width? Isn't the shim primarily used for noise reduction?
Title: Re: Corroded Brake Pipe & Other Woes - ***Video Link Attached***.
Post by: bill888 on February 28, 2021, 10:27:49 AM
I just had a look at the service manual. I couldn't find the instructions for rear disc brakes. These are for drum brakes.  See below.

It looks like I more or less followed the same procedure.  But I got a hunch with handbrake at 1 click position and one of the rear wheels starting to drag, the other one spun freely, so I think I may have adjusted it to ensure both wheels started to drag.

One issue with hand brake being fully locked at 9 or 10 clicks, is there is far too much travel in the handbrake lever in normal use (not steep hills).


Yes, shims are for anti-noise only.

---------------

1. Pull the parking brake lever (A) with 196 N (20 kgf, 44 lbf) of force to fully apply the parking brake. The parking brake lever should be locked within the specified number of clicks (B).

 Lever locked clicks: 7−10 




Adjustment 

NOTE: After servicing the rear brake shoe, loosen the parking brake adjusting nut, start the engine, and depress the brake pedal several times to set the self-adjusting brake before adjusting the parking brake.
 
1. Block the front wheels, then raise the rear of the vehicle, and make sure it is securely supported.

2. Remove the console cover.

3. Pull the parking brake lever up one click.

4. Tighten the adjusting nut (A) until the parking brakes drag slightly when the rear wheels are turned.
 
5. Release the parking brake lever fully, and check that the parking brakes do not drag when the rear wheels are turned. Readjust if necessary.
 
6. Make sure the parking brakes are fully applied when the parking brake lever is pulled up fully.

7. Reinstall the console cover.

Title: Re: Corroded Brake Pipe & Other Woes - ***Video Link Attached***.
Post by: Jocko on February 28, 2021, 10:47:13 AM
if I was pull the handbrake up further to 6 or more, it would hold the car but that requires far more effort than normal.
As I have said many times before, if you apply the footbrake firmly, then pull up the handbrake, it requires minimal effort and applies the handbrake firmly. I have never found a hill where the handbrake would not hold without slip, either facing uphill or down, using this method. It was a Honda mechanic who gave me this tip.
Title: Re: Corroded Brake Pipe & Other Woes - ***Video Link Attached***.
Post by: bill888 on February 28, 2021, 11:16:23 AM
I always have foot firmly pressed on brake pedal before applying handbrake, and to prevent the car rolling especially on a slope.

When I referred to 'more effort', I meant to say I should not have needed to apply handbrake with upto 6 clicks to hold car on a slight slope, when 3 to 4 clicks was only needed in the past (when car new).
Title: Re: Corroded Brake Pipe & Other Woes - ***Video Link Attached***.
Post by: Jocko on February 28, 2021, 11:25:14 AM
when 3 to 4 clicks was only needed in the past (when car new).
As the car is now almost 14 years old, the handbrake cable will be stretched and possibly somewhat elastic. Perhaps a new cable would solve your problems.
Title: Re: Corroded Brake Pipe & Other Woes - ***Video Link Attached***.
Post by: gtd2000 on February 28, 2021, 10:08:35 PM
when 3 to 4 clicks was only needed in the past (when car new).
As the car is now almost 14 years old, the handbrake cable will be stretched and possibly somewhat elastic. Perhaps a new cable would solve your problems.

I suppose that could be a possibility but it appears there's still adjustment left in the cable when it's being adjusted.

I'll have a look into the price of cables and it might end up on the "to do list" when the weather improves.
Title: Re: Corroded Brake Pipe & Other Woes - ***Video Link Attached***.
Post by: gtd2000 on February 28, 2021, 10:14:22 PM
I just had a look at the service manual. I couldn't find the instructions for rear disc brakes. These are for drum brakes.  See below.

It looks like I more or less followed the same procedure.  But I got a hunch with handbrake at 1 click position and one of the rear wheels starting to drag, the other one spun freely, so I think I may have adjusted it to ensure both wheels started to drag.

One issue with hand brake being fully locked at 9 or 10 clicks, is there is far too much travel in the handbrake lever in normal use (not steep hills).


Yes, shims are for anti-noise only.

---------------

1. Pull the parking brake lever (A) with 196 N (20 kgf, 44 lbf) of force to fully apply the parking brake. The parking brake lever should be locked within the specified number of clicks (B).

 Lever locked clicks: 7−10 




Adjustment 

NOTE: After servicing the rear brake shoe, loosen the parking brake adjusting nut, start the engine, and depress the brake pedal several times to set the self-adjusting brake before adjusting the parking brake.
 
1. Block the front wheels, then raise the rear of the vehicle, and make sure it is securely supported.

2. Remove the console cover.

3. Pull the parking brake lever up one click.

4. Tighten the adjusting nut (A) until the parking brakes drag slightly when the rear wheels are turned.
 
5. Release the parking brake lever fully, and check that the parking brakes do not drag when the rear wheels are turned. Readjust if necessary.
 
6. Make sure the parking brakes are fully applied when the parking brake lever is pulled up fully.

7. Reinstall the console cover.

I'll give that a go, hopefully next week, if the weather is fair.

To be honest, the brakes drag slightly, even without the handbrake connected with the natural effect of the supposedly adjusted brake pistons against the pads.
Title: Re: Corroded Brake Pipe & Other Woes - ***Video Link Attached***.
Post by: gtd2000 on February 28, 2021, 10:22:13 PM
if I was pull the handbrake up further to 6 or more, it would hold the car but that requires far more effort than normal.
As I have said many times before, if you apply the footbrake firmly, then pull up the handbrake, it requires minimal effort and applies the handbrake firmly. I have never found a hill where the handbrake would not hold without slip, either facing uphill or down, using this method. It was a Honda mechanic who gave me this tip.

The advice, from the Honda mechanic, just sounds like repetition of normal behaviour to me?

I've never yet engaged a handbrake without having my foot on the brake after coming to a halt. If you are on a steep incline, your pressure on the pedal is likely to be increased. by comparison to parking on the level.

The other part of this scenario with the handbrake is that the MoT tester concurred that it was the same problem with the Honda Civic that he owned. The handbrake - as far as I'm aware - is a known weakness with the Jazz.

This rather old thread records that there were problems with the cars when virtually new:
https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=65.0 (https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=65.0)
Title: Re: Corroded Brake Pipe & Other Woes - ***Video Link Attached***.
Post by: gtd2000 on February 28, 2021, 10:35:59 PM
Just came across this information below here:
https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?f=4&t=65645 (https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?f=4&t=65645)

"The handbrake cables adjuster is absolutly not for adjusting the brake's.It is only for free play.Your's everybodys problem is that missunderstanding.Bear with me.The rear shoes or pads wear away in use.we all know that.so do the fronts.The piston seals act as a kind of spring ,retracting the pistons enough to allow free wheel,if not,sticky front caliper'sMOT fail.the rears also do this,good for freewheel ,not good for hand brake.So a mechanisim has to be used to limit how far back the rears retract.this is the self adjuster's.Self adjusters is missleading term,YOU unknowingly adjust them using the brake.Each time the hand brake is pulled on and released the adjusters move to take up slack,but only if the opperating lever on the caliper's is allowed to retract fully each time.tightening the cable means the caliper lever dosent have the travle to engage the adjusters.Rant over!!1your car,slacken and remove from caliper lever both cables,drown the caliper opperating lever inwd40,and free it off.Using a piston wind back tool,retract the pistons.fit pad's,replace calper,Now using the caliper lever,manually crank it untill pad's close up an less and less lever movement is avialiable,eventully the pad's grip the disc and lever can only move a little befor opperating the brake ,then and only then do you reattach the handbrake cble to caliper levers and adjust freeplay .If this dosent give the best brake possible,then the calpers are shot.probably because someone over tightened the cable and caliper lever/?/internals seized."
Title: Re: Corroded Brake Pipe & Other Woes - ***Video Link Attached***.
Post by: bill888 on March 01, 2021, 07:36:39 AM
To be honest, the brakes drag slightly, even without the handbrake connected with the natural effect of the supposedly adjusted brake pistons against the pads.

Yes, the brakes do drag a bit with handbrake off, so make the adjustments so you feel the brakes drag a bit more when handbrake is on 1 click.  When you release the handbrake, check the additional drag has vanished and there is play in the cable at the rubber concertina boot at the caliper and to confirm it is not pulling pulling on the caliper.

For my car with factory fitted calipers and original pads:

Before adjustment (car was 9 years old in 2018):   9 clicks maximum (stretched cable?).   Car rolled on slight gradient with 3-4 clicks.   Held with 5-6 clicks.  Too much travel in handbrake lever imho.  Still passed MoT though.

After cable adjustment:   7 clicks maximum.   Car holds stationary with 3-4 clicks, like when car was New.


I'm no expert but I would have thought only new cables may be required if the original is seized and/or not moving freely, or has stretched so much to prevent any adjustments to compensate.

Other thought is as you just fitted new pads, perhaps they just need a bit of mileage to bed into the old discs too.
Title: Re: Corroded Brake Pipe & Other Woes - ***Video Link Attached***.
Post by: sparky Paul on March 01, 2021, 10:45:02 AM
I think specification for adjustment is 7-10 clicks for drums, 6-8 clicks for discs.

Note that the actual number of clicks varies by 1 or 2 as the pads wear between auto adjuster steps.
Title: Re: Corroded Brake Pipe & Other Woes - ***Video Link Attached***.
Post by: Jocko on March 01, 2021, 01:02:24 PM
Checked my Mk 1 handbrake this morning. It holds tight at 10 clicks, and the maximum is 12 clicks. So far, it has passed 4 MOTs with no mention of the handbrake.
Title: Re: Corroded Brake Pipe & Other Woes - ***Video Link Attached***.
Post by: sparky Paul on March 01, 2021, 01:05:11 PM
So far, it has passed 4 MOTs with no mention of the handbrake.

That's the main thing!  8)