Clubjazz - Honda Jazz & HR-V Forums
Honda Jazz Forums => Honda Jazz Mk1 2002-2008 => Topic started by: bill888 on July 11, 2020, 02:57:10 PM
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Sorry to resurrect an old subject. I reviewed past posts on this forum about best brake pads and discs. Pagid and Brembo seem to be favourite, or a combination of the two, so I'm none the wiser.
Looking at Eurocarparts website, they list Brembo as 'popular', but is that because they happen to be a few quid cheaper than Pagid (I thought Pagid was cheaper than Brembo in the past)?
I've fitted Pagid brake pads to R56 Mini Cooper and not had any issues, so considering Pagid parts for the Jazz too.
I did see one comment that suggested Pagid brake discs don't rust as quickly - are they part painted or something?
Also, I think Honda brake pads come with thin metals shims that are fitted to the back of their pads. See pic.
Are they supposed to be transferred and used with replacement pads from Brembo/Pagid etc?
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Can't comment on pads but I think those shims are probably anti-squeal shims and would be left on whatever pads are used.
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I stick to Mintex whenever available, same manufacturer as Pagid. Not the cheapest, but I've fitted many sets over the years and they always seem to wear beautifully flat and seem to resist corrosion.
The shims can be reused if they are not damaged, and you fit them to all replacement pads, regardless of manufacturer.
Usual advice with these is to remove the shims and meticulously clean the surfaces of the caliper underneath, remove the hard scale back to clean metal with a scraper - they are prone to corrosion, and subsequent binding with new pads.
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After a bit of googling, I didn't realise that EuroCarparts owns the right to use the 'Pagid' brand name in the UK. According to wikipedia, TMD Friction own Pagid and Mintex.
ECP only list Mintex front brake pads (out of stock) and discs at almost 40% less than the Pagid parts. Mintex seems to be cheapest products sold by ECP, Pagid is 2nd most expensive. Go figure....
No Mintex rear brake pads listed though.
I found this photo posted on mercedesclub.org.uk forum, favouring Brembo.....
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I have used Eicher discs and Brembo pads from Eurocarparts - used to get Honda pads but since they don't include all the shims and bolts anymore why bother buying Honda at higher price.....
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Mintex rear pads for mk 1 are MDB1616.
Everybody will have a different view as to the best to use, some are quite happy to use whatever their motor factor stocks at the time. I like Mintex simply because I've never had any problems with them. Braking and wear are both good, and I've never had a set of rotors wear unevenly or ridge.
If you want budget pads, the ones on eBay sold under the 'Omega' brand are surprisingly good, I think they are Eastern European... Turkey? I can understand why they wouldn't want to put that on the box. ;)
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I retrieved these screen captures from Pagid/Mintex website, brakebook.com, for front disc specs.
I'm just astonished by the price difference (before applying usual 40% discount) if they are indeed the exact same item. ie. £20 for a Mintex disc vs £33 for Pagid after ECP discount. It seems the Mintex products are not carried in local stores and has to be ordered.
update:
https://pagid.com/product-range/brake-discs/ quotes
A main feature of Pagid brake discs, over and above other brands, is the entire range is GEOMET® coated. This enables exemplary corrosion protection. The chrome-free protectant reduces the chances of rust build-up, a common brake disc affliction, and therefore improving stopping performance over time. The coating also provides a smarter appearance for longer, ideal for customers with alloy wheels.
Mintex started to expand their range of coated discs in 2018 supplied in red box. I wonder are Mintex discs for Jazz of the coated variety?
Posted by Eurocarparts in 2013: Mintex vs Pagid - possibly out of date?
https://uk-mkivs.net/topic/220770-mintex-vs-pagid-whats-better/ (https://uk-mkivs.net/topic/220770-mintex-vs-pagid-whats-better/)
Apparently Brembo also make UV coated discs to resist corrosion for some cars. Sadly, the GD Jazz is not one of them after checking Brembo's online catalogue. Brembo discs are supplied with replacement disc retaining screws.
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Your Jazz may be built in China, but it's a UK spec car, not China spec.
A main feature of Pagid brake discs, over and above other brands, is the entire range is GEOMET® coated. This enables exemplary corrosion protection. The chrome-free protectant reduces the chances of rust build-up, a common brake disc affliction, and therefore improving stopping performance over time.
Sounds like a load of flannel to me. As soon as you start using the brakes, the coating will be the first thing to wear off?
How did we ever manage without it...
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Your Jazz may be built in China, but it's a UK spec car, not China spec.
A main feature of Pagid brake discs, over and above other brands, is the entire range is GEOMET® coated. This enables exemplary corrosion protection. The chrome-free protectant reduces the chances of rust build-up, a common brake disc affliction, and therefore improving stopping performance over time.
Sounds like a load of flannel to me. As soon as you start using the brakes, the coating will be the first thing to wear off?
How did we ever manage without it...
+1 :-X
Agree, there is a reason steel or cast iron brake discs and drums used in brakes - 'friction'..... cast iron better corrosion resistance than normal steel, and probably harder wearing, in fact if cast iron chilled during casting the surface will become very hard indeed due to high carbon content.
Any stainless steel or chrome plating will reduce friction, and any coating will soon wear off..
The only part of a disc you can really paint or use coating on are the bits where the pads don't rub against, this has a certain cosmetic benefit, especially with alloy wheels.
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Basically use the cheapest discs and pads on rear wheels, the rear brakes don't do much anyway ( about 20% of total braking effort ) - as I said I used Eicher discs and Brembo pads from ECP on wifes Jazz and my Civic, but will pay more for front brake discs and pads.
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Upon stripping, cleaning and reinstalling the servicable original front brake pads, I discovered one of the ears on one of the large shims which is fitted to the back of a pad has broken off. Fortunately, the smaller silver outer shim holds it all in place.
As far as I can tell from Lings Honda website, Honda do sell the shim kit separately for both front and rear brakes. The line drawings suggests shims are included with the brake pads, but I understand from earlier posts by culzean this is not true any more?
Cox Motors website don't seem to list the shim kit separately. OEM front brake pad kit seems to include shims, but the rear brake pads don't include them if their photos are accurate of kit contents, unless someone knows differently.
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Upon stripping, cleaning and reinstalling the servicable original front brake pads, I discovered one of the ears on one of the large shims which is fitted to the back of a pad has broken off. Fortunately, the smaller silver outer shim holds it all in place.
As far as I can tell from Lings Honda website, Honda do sell the shim kit separately for both front and rear brakes. The line drawings suggests shims are included with the brake pads, but I understand from earlier posts by culzean this is not true any more?
Cox Motors website don't seem to list the shim kit separately. OEM front brake pad kit seems to include shims, but the rear brake pads don't include them if their photos are accurate of kit contents, unless someone knows differently.
most brake pad kits will supply anti squeal shims ( the ones on the rear of the pads ) but not the anti-rattle shims ( the ones that fit between caliper and the 'ears' of the pads - Honda used to supply new bolts pre-coated with threadlock ( item 17 on diagram ) and anti-rattle shims with pads ( item 16 on diagram ), but no longer do. They still supply anti-squeal shims - see attached PDF, everything inside yellow line is supplied by Cox with Honda Pads, including a sachet of hi-temp moly grease for pad ears.
The PDF show front pads, but Joe Woods ( sales adviser at Cox email sales@coxmotorparts.co.uk ) told me in email that same bits are in rear pad sets ) - IIRC even the Brembo pads I got from from ECP had anti-squeal shims and sachet of moly grease in them.
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Your Jazz may be built in China, but it's a UK spec car, not China spec.
A main feature of Pagid brake discs, over and above other brands, is the entire range is GEOMET® coated. This enables exemplary corrosion protection. The chrome-free protectant reduces the chances of rust build-up, a common brake disc affliction, and therefore improving stopping performance over time.
Sounds like a load of flannel to me. As soon as you start using the brakes, the coating will b.e the first thing to wear off?
How did we ever manage without it...
Surely it's a Japanese specified car
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Surely it's a Japanese specified car
Japan (and other manufacturing nations) builds cars to different country spec. EU spec, US spec, UK spec, etc. The specification depends on the market for which the vehicle is destined.
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most brake pad kits will supply anti squeal shims ( the ones on the rear of the pads ) but not the anti-rattle shims ( the ones that fit between caliper and the 'ears' of the pads
Thank you culzean for the reply. I suppose it makes sense new 3rd party brake pads 'should' come with replacement anti-squeal shims. I did note ECP sell anti-rattle shims made by Pagid.
I recall the Pagid front pads I bought for R56 mini cooper last year came with one bolt (not two) with threadlock on them for each hub, and a satchet of grease. I don't recall the original BMW brake pads using 'detachable' anti-squeal shims which is why I was perhaps getting confused about replacement Honda pads and shims.
Added Feb 2021
After recently replacing a seized front caliper, decided time to replace the original factory fitted brake pads and the discs in future.
Photo of 8x M6 x 16mm, A4 Marine grade stainless steel countersunk screws sold by eBay seller 'stigfasteners' for £4.80 inc. delivery
I bought a cheap £15 vacuum bleeder kit off eBay 3 years ago thinking it would make it easier to change the brake fluid. Total waste of money. The job took what seemed like an eternity to complete. An issue is when you loosen the brake bleed screw, air can be drawn past the threads. Similar poor experience when using it to bleed brakes on a 57 Mini Cooper. The MIni has a clutch slave cylinder, and I somehow managed to suck the cylinder dry of fluid which led to total loss of clutch operation. Fortunately, we found a youtube video describing how to reprime the clutch cylinder using a 3m length of hose and a foot pump.
This time round, I bought a Vizibleed one man bleeder kit from Halfords for 6 quid. Similar to something I bought over 30 years ago the last time I bled brakes on a car. Simple to use, and works brilliantly when I had to bleed the air out of newly fitted front brake calliper. There is a white plastic strip with prepunched holes, which you are supposed to fit over the black hose, but I found the hole was too small. The black hose is tight fit over the brake bleed nipple.
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Apologies for resurrecting this old thread.
Time has come to finally replace the front discs and pads on my 57 Jazz with 16k miles on the clock.
Following an issue with a seized front calliper, it resulted in the surface of the disc becoming severely pitted. It may have cleaned itself up if I was able to put several hundred miles on the clock, but that is not likely to happen due to lockdown.
The original front pads were also wearing thin. Last summer when I stripped, cleaned and refitted the 13 year old pads, the pads on the piston side were down to around 3mm, but the ones on the outward side were nearer 5mm. In hindsight, I should have realised there was an issue with both front calipers, which led to one of them eventually seizing.
Ordered a new set of Pagid front brake discs and pads from Carparts4less.
Discs are supplied in pairs in same box. They are painted. Photos below:
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Photos of pads below.
It doesn't come with any shims or caliper slider bolts.
I will need to check the factory shims from the Honda OEM pads will fit the back of these new Pagid pads.
(Update: If you plan to reuse all of the OEM shims, do NOT buy these Pagid front brake pads. The black metal shims do not fit particularly well imho. See later post)
I know one of the black shims on piston side is damaged (ear corroded and broke off) but fortunately it is held place by another smaller stainless steel shim. May have to decide whether to order a new set or choose not to refit it.
Lings Honda lists them at a staggering £37 inc delivery !
Link to post by Eddie Honda showing OEM brake pads and shims. Photo reproduced below.
https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=8360.msg43550#msg43550 (https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=8360.msg43550#msg43550)
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Pagid front brake pads and discs fitted. New Torx disc retaining screws fitted hand tight only - I didn't reuse the troublesome JIS screws which I personally found difficult to remove using a Vessel P3 Impacta screwdriver. I had to use ball end of hammer trick to loosen the screws.
One disappointment of the Pagid brake pads is the metal backing plate has a large bevel on one side. The ears on the original Honda black metal shims don't fit/grip the sides of the pad all that well if at all. Only the brake grease was holding it all together until the caliper was fitted.
Looking at the poor pictures of the Eicher, Brembo, Pagid and Bosch front brake pads on the CP4less website, only the Pagids 'seem' to have a big bevel on them. Should I consider binning the Pagid pads and getting Brembo instead?
I know one of the ears has broken off one of the black shims on piston side, and it possibly could slide out of position. I'll have to keep an eye on it. The shim is visible through the little rectangular aperture on the front of the caliper. I may buy some new shims unless someone out there has an old set I can buy off them for less money. (Lings quotes £37 ! I haven't approached Cox motors yet)
Took car for quick spin and after a mile, noticed the stopping power was a lot better. Even the ABS kicked in a few times on emergency stops.
Update: I removed the one shim with the broken ear a few days later, when investigating a 'twang' noise. It had nothing to do with the brakes.
Update 2: After a few weeks use driving around town, the brakes are more sensitive/fierce in use.
Bremtech front brake calipers were fitted a few weeks earlier. Supplied by Brakes International (They are a bit cheaper on eBay)
https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=12753.msg93381#msg93381 (https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=12753.msg93381#msg93381)
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Good job! They always look nice when they're new. Be a shame to use them now!! ;D
I recetly fitted Pagid discs & pads to the read of our Jazz. I can't say I even noticed the bevel. I checked they were the same size as the Honda parts they were replacing, and they fitted just fine. 3000 miles later, and they still look in brilliant condition. If they work, I dont think I would worry.
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I bought a cheap £15 vacuum bleeder kit off eBay 3 years ago thinking it would make it easier to change the brake fluid. Total waste of money. The job took what seemed like an eternity to complete. An issue is when you loosen the brake bleed screw, air can be drawn past the threads.
Just a quick tip for anyone using any vacuum bleeder - I use one of those cheap vacuum bleeders with absolutely no problems. You should grease the nipple threads, or apply a smear of thick grease around the threads of the nipple. It's drawn into the threads, and then no air is sucked in by the vacuum.
The one-man kits have a one-way valve in them, and do work perfectly well. The biggest problem I have them is that you can't watch for any bubbles while you are at the other end pumping the pedal.
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I recently fitted Pagid discs & pads to the rear of our Jazz. I can't say I even noticed the bevel
Your profile seems to suggest you own a 2013 Jazz?
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Your profile seems to suggest you own a 2013 Jazz?
Indeed I do. Just noticed you have a 2007. Maybe a different Pagid bevel profile then.
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Hmm, noticed a new problem this afternoon. There was a rattling noise (sounds like a 'twang') coming from one corner of the car mainly when driving along without applying brakes I think. It got progressively worse.
I had a very quick look and only possible issue I could see is one of the shims may be touching one of the anti rattle clip that is fitted to the top of the carrier. Coincidentally, it is the shim with a broken/missing ear on the piston side. I refitted the caliper and rattle is far less obvious.
I'll take a closer look tomorrow. I may remove that particular damaged shim but leave the stainless steel (anti squeal?) one fitted to see if the rattle stays away.
Or there is an issue with the 'anti-rattle' clip.....
These cheap Ridex front brake pads seem to come with anti squeal shims. Looks like they do away with the Honda shims completely.
https://www.autodoc.co.uk/ridex/7999605 (https://www.autodoc.co.uk/ridex/7999605)
Half considering the idea of binning the 20 quid Pagid brake pads, and buying a genuine set of Honda pads at almost 60 quid which will come with new shims.
Also came across this old post by Droverunner who had difficulty installing Pagid front discs, pads and OEM shims in 2015, and had to remove 2 of 3 shims before they would fit. He does not say if the calipers are OEM given the age of the car at the time.
https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=7224.0 (https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=7224.0)
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Mystery rattle/twang noise solved.
I forgot to remove the old coat hanger wire I used to suspend the caliper from the coil spring while fitting new disc....
I also took a closer look at the broken black shim. It could slide out of position and touch the anti rattle clip. Whether it would cause any issues, I do not know. I didn't have any issues after refitting the broken shim and old Honda brake pads last summer.
In any case, I decided to remove the broken shim. I have kept the smaller stainless steel shim between the piston and the back of the brake pad - it also seems to fit better on the back of the Pagid brake pad.
Brake fluid to change next which ought to be straightforward.
As for the rear brakes, I know the 13+ year old Honda brake pads are wearing evenly and in good condition and there is no pitting on the disc surface. The rear calipers are working but may look at replacing pads/discs/calipers in the future.
Update (April 2022):
https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=14584.0 (https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=14584.0)
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Mystery rattle/twang noise solved.
I forgot to remove the old coat hanger wire I used to suspend the caliper from the coil spring.....
Good spot. Could have saved a problem there. :D