Author Topic: Electric cars  (Read 700315 times)

peteo48

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #270 on: October 04, 2017, 02:54:52 PM »
http://www.msn.com/en-gb/cars/news/ford-plans-to-shift-focus-to-suvs-and-evs/ar-AAsSVvN?li=AA8sb7&ocid=spartandhp

Ford planning big move away from traditional cars. Hybrids and EVs dominating future line ups.

peteo48

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #271 on: October 04, 2017, 03:01:36 PM »


I may have mentioned, as well, that a BMW dealer is on record as saying that many buyers of the BMW plug in hybrid never charged the battery up buying it because the Benefit in Kind tax system was more favourable.

I'm less sure the resistance to EVs - long term - will be as strong as you think though. Some signs that oil companies are starting to move into the EV charging market. A light bulb has gone on. Shell will be charging 49 pence per unit of electricity as opposed to a typical 14 pence domestic unit.

Kerrching! - you can almost hear the finance director saying.

A viable EV charging network is going to cost serious money and will have to be paid for somehow, it should not be down to bottomless pocket of taxpayer or people that use electrical power for reasons other than charging EV to continue subsidizing EV users.

I look forward to the day when the EV hype settles down and honeymoon period is over and users pay full cost of buying and running their vehicle, without subsidies,  only then will we get the full picture and a level playing field, and be able to make a rational decision.

Subsidies, of one sort or another, are involved in almost all energy production - especially nuclear. There is, in my view, a very strong case for subsidies to stop dirty vehicles polluting our towns and cities.

Or, alternatively, punitive congestion charges. The change needs to be pushed and pushed hard.

peteo48

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #272 on: October 04, 2017, 03:04:57 PM »
Sorry - was going to put this link in above. IMF measurement of fossil fuel industry subsidies. Mind blowing sums to prop up the oil and other industries.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/may/18/fossil-fuel-companies-getting-10m-a-minute-in-subsidies-says-imf

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #273 on: October 04, 2017, 03:10:07 PM »
Ford planning big move away from traditional cars. Hybrids and EVs dominating future line ups.
I was surprised when I saw it on the early morning news that they were shifting away from cars and concentrating on SUVs and trucks. I assume that Ford Europe won't be making such a dramatic shift.
Wonder how Trump will feel about the new North American Focus being built in China!

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #274 on: October 04, 2017, 03:48:09 PM »
Sorry - was going to put this link in above. IMF measurement of fossil fuel industry subsidies. Mind blowing sums to prop up the oil and other industries.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/may/18/fossil-fuel-companies-getting-10m-a-minute-in-subsidies-says-imf


Oil exploration is an expensive business, a company may drill many potential sites in far flung and remote locations at vast expense  before they actually strike oil. Also people think we use oil just for powering vehicles, when oil products are used for a myriad of things, whether it be plastics, tarmac for roads, paint, fertilizer, medicine etc. etc. So just to get things straight, just because we don't need oil for cars does not mean we can stop drilling and refining it, we are so dependent on it for so many things including air travel and ships.

Subsidies for wind power are bad use of good money, as wind adds very little to our grid capacity as it is too variable and makes directly connecting it to the grid almost impossible, it has to be used indirectly via pumped storage or similar and still only produces on average 20% of its installed capacity.

My problem is that EV are directly subsidized , be it via company car tax rates ( and as BMW say, many drivers never plug battery in, just have the car to save tax) direct subsidy by taxpayer of price of EV, and subsidy by other consumers of electrical power, and if local authorities are expected to provide charging points, that will be further subsidy paid for out of council taxes.  Tesla have received a lot of taxpayer money, which is probably why they can offer free charging for their EV, otherwise their business model would be even more shaky than it appears to be.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2017, 05:07:29 PM by culzean »
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Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #275 on: October 04, 2017, 05:04:24 PM »
As I am typing this 21.7% of the UK's energy is coming from wind and 20.5 from nuclear. Figures courtesy of
http://gridwatch.co.uk/
So surely wind deserves every bit as much of a subsidy as nuclear does?

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #276 on: October 04, 2017, 05:40:06 PM »
As I am typing this 21.7% of the UK's energy is coming from wind and 20.5 from nuclear. Figures courtesy of
http://gridwatch.co.uk/
So surely wind deserves every bit as much of a subsidy as nuclear does?

The difference is that the nuclear power is reliably available 24/7/365 and is easy to manage,  combined gas power stations (waste of valuable gas that would be more efficiently used in other ways, but that is another matter) are another base load steadfast supply, but react quicker to changing demands than nuclear. Until cheap load levelling mass storage  (salt water batteries or similar) are available both wind and solar will be problematic to people who to balance the grid to ensure reliable supplies to consumers.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #277 on: October 04, 2017, 05:53:56 PM »
Looking at yesterdays graph, nuclear and wind power are pretty constant for the full 24 hours, with CCGT taking up the slack. A very interesting site.

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #278 on: October 04, 2017, 05:59:05 PM »
Looking at last months average on same site tells a story, wind almost disappeared on some days.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #279 on: October 04, 2017, 06:01:13 PM »
Looking at last months average on same site tells a story, wind almost disappeared on some days.
Agreed. But when wind is available it means we don't have to burn oil, so they all have their worth.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2017, 06:03:06 PM by Jocko »

peteo48

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #280 on: October 04, 2017, 10:28:08 PM »
I agree Jocko. We need a balanced portfolio of energy supplies and renewables can be a major part of that. They have one great advantage over fossil fuels and that is that they will never run out.


culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #281 on: October 05, 2017, 10:21:26 AM »
Everything you read about wind and solar PV power (unless it is from the raving lunatic I love wind at any cost green party manifesto) says that every wind turbine and PV solar panel  needs 100% backup from either coal, gas or nuclear (ie the reliable sources)  because without being able to store energy from those sources to cover windless and cloudy days (more than one day, in other words medium term storage ) they are severely handicapped.  On a lightly clouded day PV solar can be reduced to less than 10% of rated output,  and below about 30mph wind turbine output drops off very rapidly.  Germany has less wind than UK (UK is one of the windier places, most suitable for wind turbines) but to placate the greenies Germany has installed lots of turbines, and they produce over a year about 18 % of their rated (installed) capacity,  UK even with our more steady wind averages a heady 21% of installed capacity actually produced.   I really feel sorry for the people who have the ever more complicated job of integrating renewables without any storage to level output into our grid,  it's like trying to run a business where often on some days most of your workers may not turn up and the ones that do will often be found sleeping at their desk, you would soon be advertising for 'reliable' staff,  and that is when the agency sends around the fossil and nuclear workers,  and boy, would you be glad to employ them (even though some of them smell and others wear a lead overcoat).
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #282 on: October 05, 2017, 11:41:14 AM »
Gridwatch.co.uk has been updated since yesterday(!) and now has a meter showing % renewables.
http://gridwatch.co.uk/

guest5079

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #283 on: October 05, 2017, 04:14:26 PM »
There is something truly weird about the whole energy industry.
Some years back I had the fortune to go around Dungeness Nuclear Power station. I did have some reservations but apart form the waste problem I cannot see why Nuclear is such a problem with some people. Safety was paramount and when we left we all had to be checked. Well my size 10's didn't go all the way into the measuring machinery and off went the alarm, yes of course there are those that would say it was a gimmick.
Moving on some years and now EDF is building a new nuclear station in Somerset at some incredible subsidy to the French and Chinese.  This must be manna to the ears of the renewable lobby. Recently having had enough of EDF and their eternal price rises I changed my supplier. Supposedly easy but EDF had other ideas.
What makes me smile is that the company I have gone to, claim their supplies come from all renewables. How they work out their costs I know not as the difference in price  tween EDF and them is considerable. This of course makes me a hypocrite as I do despair with the endless wind farms and solar farms despoiling the Cornish countryside. BUT living in an all electric house I need the power.

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #284 on: October 05, 2017, 07:01:47 PM »
What makes me smile is that the company I have gone to, claim their supplies come from all renewables. How they work out their costs I know not as the difference in price  tween EDF and them is considerable. This of course makes me a hypocrite as I do despair with the endless wind farms and solar farms despoiling the Cornish countryside. BUT living in an all electric house I need the power.

Makes me smile as well, I guess like most houses yours only has one electric cable coming in, and this is fed from main grid, so how can this company supply you with green energy unless they fit a filter to sort out all the electrons that come from non green sources.  It is a bit like changing your water supplier to another one that promises you will only now get water from sustainable renewable sources and it will taste better than your neighbours water, even though you are both supplied from same water main in the street.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

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