Author Topic: Enjoyment of driving the Mk4 Jazz  (Read 14310 times)

Kenneve

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Enjoyment of driving the Mk4 Jazz
« on: April 27, 2021, 10:26:44 AM »
My enjoyment of driving this new Mk4 is being marred by the intervention of 'the gizmos'
By that I mean things like, LKAS, CMBS, RDPS etc. LKAS can be switched Off easily on the steering wheel, but the others ........................?

Like many people of my vintage, I started my motoring life, riding motorbikes, starting with a Dot 197, before moving on the a Matchless 500 twin, didn't quite get to the classic Triumph 650 twin, but that's another story!

Part of the Roadcraft in those days, when negotiating a winding country road, was to attempt to 'straighten out' the bends by hugging the kerb at the apex of a LH bend and moving over towards the white line on a RH bend. (I guess Culzean can identify with that) This is something I have continued to do throughout my motoring life. However, if I try this technique with the Mk4, then an invisible hand grabs the steering wheel to moves me back to the middle, most disconcerting!

Yesterday afternoon I came upon a dead straight section of road, perhaps 1/2 mile long, 30mph, absolutely no other traffic, apart from a solitary parked car, perhaps 250 yds ahead. As I approached the car, I moved out to pass it, when all of a sudden the brakes came On. What's that all about?
I reckon, if a car had been following me closely, it could have resulted in an accident, as there was absolutely no need to brake.

Now the Owners Manual tells be, these functions are switched on by default, every time I start the car.
At the moment I'm not a happy bunny!!  Maybe there is a fuse I can pull to disable the these functions permanently?

I should say however, in most other respects, the MK4 is the best Jazz, out of the 6 that I've had.
 

peteo48

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Re: Enjoyment of driving the Mk4 Jazz
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2021, 10:29:51 AM »
That brakes coming on thing in that situation is a bit worrying. Glad that you are otherwise enjoying the new Jazz. Everything I've read implies that it is a step change for the better especially the extra torque.

Expatman

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Re: Enjoyment of driving the Mk4 Jazz
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2021, 10:37:50 AM »
The real problem us that these “safety” systems are being built into all new cars and cannot be easily disabled. To obtain a 5* safety rating new cars have to have these features and it must be at least a two stage process to disable them, and they must reactivate every time the car is started.
It is reaching the point that safety measures are now as likely to cause an accident as to prevent one. The systems work fine in perfect driving conditions and those in the Safety Rating Tests but do not work properly in more different driving conditions - windy lanes, single track roads etc.
I would have thought car companies etc.would have learnt from the Dieselgate emissions scandal that making a system to ‘beat the test’ is not good for real life driving. How long before someone is killed or seriously injured by the interference of these systems - and then imagine the Court case and claims for damages.

Westy36

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Re: Enjoyment of driving the Mk4 Jazz
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2021, 11:02:53 AM »
That sounds like a scary experience. Machine does not know better than the man. I would feel a lot safer with you driving using all those years of experience than I would a computer programme.

I have read about crisp packets on windy days confusing these systems and causing cars to brake suddenly. Road side  barriers on bends can confuse them too. I find myself leaving a big breaking distance in town these days. I just don't trust the modern car in front to behave itself.

As for wrestling the car when attempting to enjoy some cornering. Yeah, that would frustrate the heck out of me.

E27006

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Re: Enjoyment of driving the Mk4 Jazz
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2021, 11:59:15 AM »
That brakes coming on thing in that situation is a bit worrying. Glad that you are otherwise enjoying the new Jazz. Everything I've read implies that it is a step change for the better especially the extra torque.

In the situation described, a normal situation of  a steering manoeuvre initiated by the driver to pass a stationary parked vehicle, the safety system invoked  an unwanted intervention to the manoeuvre. Did the driver operate the direction indicator or not?  If the indicators are operated  prior to, and as a sequence of the manoeuvre, will the safety system  still intervene?

culzean

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Re: Enjoyment of driving the Mk4 Jazz
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2021, 12:04:49 PM »
Replicating human judgement is going to be pretty much impossible for computers,  most 5 year olds have better judgement and motor skills than the computers in cars nowadays.  Notice how quiet it has gone on autonomous vehicles - haven't heard of any 'major breakthroughs'  or 'exciting discoveries' for years now.  If autonomous vehicles are going to work at all it will be in limited areas and the roads will have to change, with transponders on traffic lights and pedestrian crossings to inform the vehicle when lights are changing or anyone on the crossing etc. and all these extra things will need maintenance - and councils can't even keep the present 'low tech' road systems maintained to a reasonable standard.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/jan/03/peak-hype-driverless-car-revolution-uber-robotaxis-autonomous-vehicle

My brother always disables everything 'automatic' in his car before driving - he was caught out down narrow lanes in our area affecting the auto braking, and he is quite capable of reading roadsigns for himself.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2021, 12:17:24 PM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

Jazzik

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Re: Enjoyment of driving the Mk4 Jazz
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2021, 12:08:18 PM »
Did the driver operate the direction indicator or not?  If the indicators are operated  prior to, and as a sequence of the manoeuvre, will the safety system  still intervene?

Guess....
If nothing goes right, go left!

peteo48

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Re: Enjoyment of driving the Mk4 Jazz
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2021, 12:39:06 PM »
That brakes coming on thing in that situation is a bit worrying. Glad that you are otherwise enjoying the new Jazz. Everything I've read implies that it is a step change for the better especially the extra torque.

In the situation described, a normal situation of  a steering manoeuvre initiated by the driver to pass a stationary parked vehicle, the safety system invoked  an unwanted intervention to the manoeuvre. Did the driver operate the direction indicator or not?  If the indicators are operated  prior to, and as a sequence of the manoeuvre, will the safety system  still intervene?

Good question. Certainly the indicator silences the lane departure warning.

jazzaro

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Re: Enjoyment of driving the Mk4 Jazz
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2021, 12:46:20 PM »
That sounds like a scary experience. Machine does not know better than the man. I would feel a lot safer with you driving using all those years of experience than I would a computer programme.
This is precisely what I used to hear years and years ago, when first ABS then ESP have been put as standard in our cars, from  plenty of "experienced drivers" sure to be able to brake and reduce understeer better than a software.

culzean

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Re: Enjoyment of driving the Mk4 Jazz
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2021, 01:02:22 PM »
That sounds like a scary experience. Machine does not know better than the man. I would feel a lot safer with you driving using all those years of experience than I would a computer programme.
This is precisely what I used to hear years and years ago, when first ABS then ESP have been put as standard in our cars, from  plenty of "experienced drivers" sure to be able to brake and reduce understeer better than a software.

Nothing dangerous about EPS or ABS, but all the other c r 4 p ----  :o  Drivers just need to pay attention, and all these 'aids' are just having the opposite affect - they make people think they can sit in the back seat and watch a movie...

ABS and EPS were designed to help in emergency situations,  but is seems other stuff can cause emergencies....
« Last Edit: April 27, 2021, 01:12:05 PM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

Kremmen

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Re: Enjoyment of driving the Mk4 Jazz
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2021, 01:14:49 PM »
Assuming I like the test drive June/July and order for Sep then I'll need to scour the manual and print and laminate a checklist.

Stupid that you can't permanently disable these silly steering and braking systems that do unexpected things.

As said, EPS and ABS are fine, they don't catch you out.
Let's be careful out there !

Downsizer

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Re: Enjoyment of driving the Mk4 Jazz
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2021, 02:38:02 PM »
That sounds like a scary experience. Machine does not know better than the man. I would feel a lot safer with you driving using all those years of experience than I would a computer programme.
This is precisely what I used to hear years and years ago, when first ABS then ESP have been put as standard in our cars, from  plenty of "experienced drivers" sure to be able to brake and reduce understeer better than a software.
I’ld temporarily forgotten what ESP stands for (Electronic Stability Programme), but of course it also means Extrasensory Perception, which seems to be what auto-engineers are trying to replicate in cars!

culzean

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Re: Enjoyment of driving the Mk4 Jazz
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2021, 02:45:29 PM »
That sounds like a scary experience. Machine does not know better than the man. I would feel a lot safer with you driving using all those years of experience than I would a computer programme.
This is precisely what I used to hear years and years ago, when first ABS then ESP have been put as standard in our cars, from  plenty of "experienced drivers" sure to be able to brake and reduce understeer better than a software.
I’ld temporarily forgotten what ESP stands for (Electronic Stability Programme), but of course it also means Extrasensory Perception, which seems to be what auto-engineers are trying to replicate in cars!

IIRC ESP was Ford, Honda call it VSA - Vehicle Stability Assist
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

Westy36

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Re: Enjoyment of driving the Mk4 Jazz
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2021, 02:58:08 PM »
Nothing dangerous about EPS or ABS, but all the other c r 4 p ----  :o  Drivers just need to pay attention, and all these 'aids' are just having the opposite affect - they make people think they can sit in the back seat and watch a movie...

ABS and EPS were designed to help in emergency situations,  but is seems other stuff can cause emergencies....

Agreed. I reckon it would do all drivers the world of good to go for a bike ride for a couple of miles. Maybe do 10 miles on a 125 or 50cc bike. Make them realise that the roads can be dangerous outside of their airbag intense safety cell. Reset their perception of danger.

It's great that cars dont kill you anymore becuase of the inherent safety, but the modern mountain of 'driver aids' are of no benefit in my experience. Have a look at this:


Bristol_Crosstar

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Re: Enjoyment of driving the Mk4 Jazz
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2021, 03:53:39 PM »
I've noticed my Crosstar gets upset crossing a white line (eg overtaking a parked car) but is fine provided indicators are used so I've just got back into the habit of using them . There is a setting for Road Departure Mitigation which can be set to Early, Normal or Delayed where Early is the most sensitive and Delayed is the least, needless to say I have mine set to Delayed and it doesn't come on that often but can still be a nuisance on narrow roads where you have to stay close into the kerb, I think it only comes on above a certain speed so if you're travelling slow (say under 20 mph) it probably won't interrupt.

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