Clubjazz - Honda Jazz & HR-V Forums
Honda Jazz Forums => Honda Jazz Mk3 2015 - 2020 => Topic started by: Nixtoo on February 07, 2017, 06:22:24 PM
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We've had an intermittent fault on our s model since it was about a month old. It takes an extended time to star once you turn the key before it catches. It has also started and died a couple of times and once refused completely (AA got it going).
Honda UK were pathetic, told us it was normal and won't do anything.
The dealer has been a little better, they have offered us a new car for a reasonable amount.
Has anyone else had the same issue? Don't really want to spend more if the car does the same!
Link to issue
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Mine does that occasionally, but has always started after a few seconds, sounding as if it would rather not start. It then runs perfectly.
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Yay! Another victim. I'm so happy!
Er...
I've had issues starting as have several others. Mine seems to play up when it's not summer. Mostly it fires quickly but runs at low revs for a half a second before picking up to something sensible. Occasionally the revs are so low that it stalls and needs a second attempt.
On the second attempt it always fires up immediately.
I've also found that if you switch the ignition on first and wait several seconds the problem doesn't occur.
My original thread (http://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=8234.msg42068#msg42068).
My follow up thread (http://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=8682.0).
For a while I thought it was just me but we now have two or three people experiencing this. I've even experienced it with a courtesy car as the later thread mentions. That thread also has a link to what mine usually does.
It's never let me down but I do find it a bit disconcerting that so many dealers are expressing mystification and claiming they've never heard of it before.
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Honda UK were pathetic, told us it was normal and won't do anything.
What ?? Since when is a car that refuses to start considered "normal" ?
I'm assuming the car is a new-ish Mk3 that's still under warranty ? If it's been doing this since new, and you've reported it to both Honda UK and your dealer and they've not been able to fix it under warranty, then you would seem to have a good case for rejecting it because a car that doesn't start is clearly not fit for purpose. Do some research on your rights (this is a good place to start: http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/consumer-rights-act (http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/consumer-rights-act)), go back to your dealer and tell him not to be so stupid.
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As it's beyond 6 months we have no right to reject it, it was reported within 6 months but we had no evidence. Honda UK have seen two videos and told us we were starting the car incorrectly. Which I said was rediculus in over 20 years of driving I've never had this issue before!
They also said that our only redress at this stage was the ombudsman and looking at the info on line they wouldn't find in our favour.
We now have the dilemma do we shell out 3.5K on a new one (16 to 17 plate and we've done 14k in it) and risk the same problem occurring, live with it (it does worry me) or trade in for a different make. After only owning Jazzes since 2003 it very annoying!
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The problem we have (apart from occasionally poor starting) is that it is an intermittent fault, notoriously difficult to reproduce and diagnose. The only hope is that it leaves fault codes in the engine ECU, but some faults don't. :-(
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This is a horrible position to be in, you have my sympathy. My decision to buy a Honda this time around was partly based on their reputation so this kind of story is a bit worrying. It is of course up to you whether you wish to pursue this, but do please make sure you understand your rights. For example, the following isn't quite correct:
As it's beyond 6 months we have no right to reject it, it was reported within 6 months but we had no evidence
The issue (under the Consumer Rights Act) is whether the fault was there at the time of purchase. From the Which? link, if you're within 6 months you don't need proof, it's up to the retailer to prove it wasn't. If you reported it within 6 months, with video evidence, that would indicate to any normal person that the fault did exist very early in the car's life. After 6 months it's more complicated, the onus of proof is on you so you may need to get an independent report, but that doesn't mean you don't have a valid claim against the dealer ... and you have 6 years to make that claim.
Out of interest, if they said you weren't starting it correctly, what advice did they give you about the correct procedure ?
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As it's beyond 6 months we have no right to reject it, it was reported within 6 months but we had no evidence. Honda UK have seen two videos and told us we were starting the car incorrectly. Which I said was rediculus in over 20 years of driving I've never had this issue before!
I agree. I class mine only as an irritation simply because nine times out of ten it does start first time. Maybe even nine point nine times out of ten. The occasional fail has always been followed by a 'keen sounding' success that reassured me.
I've never had to call out the AA or fear that it would let me down. In your situation I would definitely be pressing the dealer and Honda hard. I had thought mine was the worst example but yours disproves that. Have you tried leaving the vehicle with the dealer overnight? If the dealer didn't manage to replicate it you could try yourself. The devices that read the on-board diagnostics are pretty cheap these days (https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_c_2_6?url=search-alias%3Dautomotive&field-keywords=obd+reader&sprefix=obd+re%2Caps%2C124&crid=1UK232Z0NXXR3). Maybe buy one and capture that information yourself. There might not be warning codes but I assume there'd be trace diagnostics that pointed to the problem.
If not..who do we progress it to? I'd be happy to add weight to any complaint. Maybe if enough of us complain Honda will have to take it more seriously.
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When I was preparing to take on Honda about the premature failure of my CVT box, Honda UK advised to to start with the Motor Ombudsman:
https://www.themotorombudsman.org (https://www.themotorombudsman.org)
I never did this because the local dealer made me a very good offer for the broken car against a new car, but I was certainly about to use it.
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When I was preparing to take on Honda about the premature failure of my CVT box, Honda UK advised to to start with the Motor Ombudsman:
https://www.themotorombudsman.org (https://www.themotorombudsman.org)
I never did this because the local dealer made me a very good offer for the broken car against a new car, but I was certainly about to use it.
That sounds to me like classic blame dodging and delaying tactics. It is not Honda UKs problem anyway, the dealer is responsible for any claim, and I would be surprised if they did not have insurance cover for duff cars. It is up to the dealer if they claim from Honda UK.
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When I was preparing to take on Honda about the premature failure of my CVT box, Honda UK advised to to start with the Motor Ombudsman:
https://www.themotorombudsman.org (https://www.themotorombudsman.org)
I never did this because the local dealer made me a very good offer for the broken car against a new car, but I was certainly about to use it.
That sounds to me like classic blame dodging and delaying tactics.
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When I was preparing to take on Honda about the premature failure of my CVT box, Honda UK advised to to start with the Motor Ombudsman:
https://www.themotorombudsman.org (https://www.themotorombudsman.org)
I never did this because the local dealer made me a very good offer for the broken car against a new car, but I was certainly about to use it.
That sounds to me like classic blame dodging and delaying tactics.
I saw it as the opposite, cut the intermediate skirmishing and escalate to an arbitrating third party.
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It is not Honda UKs problem anyway, the dealer is responsible for any claim, and I would be surprised if they did not have insurance cover for duff cars. It is up to the dealer if they claim from Honda UK.
Said it before I could ! If you've bought a faulty product, your right of redress is against the person who sold you that product not the manufacturer. Doubtless the dealer would pursue a parallel action against the manufacturer, but that's his problem not yours.
From my own experience with the infotainment system error saga, Honda UK simply tell you to talk to the dealer anyway.
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Hi all
My Mk2 usually starts within a second of turning the key, but once in a while for no apparent reason when I release the key as usual after a second it hasn't started. So i try again and 3 to 4 seconds later it does start so maybe partially flooded. it's not a problem just a surprise when it happens which is why I notice it.
just thinking maybe it's the same thing but as I say it's not often enough to worry me.
Fords I worked on used a ballast resistor to drop the voltage when starting and it almost sounds like that though of course points have now gone!
:)
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It is not Honda UKs problem anyway, the dealer is responsible for any claim, and I would be surprised if they did not have insurance cover for duff cars. It is up to the dealer if they claim from Honda UK.
Said it before I could ! If you've bought a faulty product, your right of redress is against the person who sold you that product not the manufacturer. Doubtless the dealer would pursue a parallel action against the manufacturer, but that's his problem not yours.
In my CVT failure situation I was the third owner. It was not sold to me by my local Honda agent. I bought it three years previously from a second hand car dealer 150 miles away. I judged that I wasn't going to get a £5000 repair from them, so was going to take Honda UK on...they seemed to expect it. Maybe if the Motor Ombudsman had got involved he would have advised differently.
Does the right of redress against seller (rather than manufacturer) apply for second hand goods when the item was outside manufacturers warranty?
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This is a horrible position to be in, you have my sympathy. My decision to buy a Honda this time around was partly based on their reputation so this kind of story is a bit worrying. It is of course up to you whether you wish to pursue this, but do please make sure you understand your rights. For example, the following isn't quite correct:
As it's beyond 6 months we have no right to reject it, it was reported within 6 months but we had no evidence
The issue (under the Consumer Rights Act) is whether the fault was there at the time of purchase. From the Which? link, if you're within 6 months you don't need proof, it's up to the retailer to prove it wasn't. If you reported it within 6 months, with video evidence, that would indicate to any normal person that the fault did exist very early in the car's life. After 6 months it's more complicated, the onus of proof is on you so you may need to get an independent report, but that doesn't mean you don't have a valid claim against the dealer ... and you have 6 years to make that claim.
Out of interest, if they said you weren't starting it correctly, what advice did they give you about the correct procedure ?
We were told to switch the ignition switch to position 1 wait at least a second or two then start. They also said in position 1 the lights came on, they don't (that's position 2). It felt like a 'fob off' to be honest.
The dealer has had the car in twice (overnight) they can not recreate the fault. It took a while for us to video it (it would only do it when we forgot to record). So as they can find no fault they couldn't do anything.
After 3 Jazzes this is likely to be the last. The dealer has made us an offer but having bought a new car last year we weren't expecting to have to pay out more the following year. If it solved the problem I'd do it, but I'm not convinced another won't do the same!
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Does the right of redress against seller (rather than manufacturer) apply for second hand goods when the item was outside manufacturers warranty?
As far as I can tell from the Which? link I posted earlier, the Consumer Rights Act doesn't differentiate between new or second-hand or the presence or absence of a warranty. They do have a specific page relating to second-hand cars though:
http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/the-second-hand--car-i-bought-has-a-problem-what-are-my-rights (http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/the-second-hand--car-i-bought-has-a-problem-what-are-my-rights)
Your problem, if you bought the car three years previously and you want to use the Consumer Rights Act, would be proving that the problem existed at the time of purchase. However I suspect your issue is more related to components not having the expected lifespan rather than a pre-existing fault, which is (probably) a whole different world of pain.
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We were told to switch the ignition switch to position 1 wait at least a second or two then start. They also said in position 1 the lights came on, they don't (that's position 2). It felt like a 'fob off' to be honest.
For my car that would solve the problem as long as I wait several seconds so that most of the warning lights have gone out. It's what I was doing for most of January.
However that is not 'normal starting procedure', not on a petrol and not even on a modern diesel.
It certainly isn't normal for me because I have an EX and it has a button. I'm supposed to be able to just press the button and go (with a few preconditions for safety). The button is responsible for doing all that is required to achieve normal turn over.
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So i try again and 3 to 4 seconds later it does start so maybe partially flooded. it's not a problem just a surprise when it happens which is why I notice it.
I think flooding is the problem, as I mentioned in andurec's thread.
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I've added a poll, to see how wide spread the issue is. If it's rare then it would be worth us swapping the car.
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We were told to switch the ignition switch to position 1 wait at least a second or two then start. They also said in position 1 the lights came on, they don't (that's position 2).
... solve the problem as long as I wait several seconds so that most of the warning lights have gone out.
However that is not 'normal starting procedure', not on a petrol and not even on a modern diesel.
Turn key, wait for dash witness lights to extinguish (Key, ABS, SRS etc.) then turn to starting position has been standard procedure since Mk1 - I remember being told this during my handover from the supplying dealer in 2002 and assume it applies to all Hondas. I hear the fuel pump run until it clicks to a stop. I assume this is to get the high pressure fuel rail circuit up to pressure and make sure there is fresh fuel to squirt in on first ignition. It's possible that other valves, actuators and sensors are exercised and checked during this period (e.g IAC, EGR).
Does the push button start not have a built in pause?
Survey: Does anyone press the accelerator while starting? Never needed to in my Jazz (different story in an old MG).
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TG
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Hi
We have a jazz si 2013, never press accelerator and starts first time. Only had jazz August 2016
Many thanks
John
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Survey: Does anyone press the accelerator while starting? Never needed to in my Jazz (different story in an old MG).
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TG
Mk 3 CVT, parked outside all year, never wait for lights, never press accelerator, always starts first time (so far, 9000m since new in June)
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We were told to switch the ignition switch to position 1 wait at least a second or two then start. They also said in position 1 the lights came on, they don't (that's position 2).
... solve the problem as long as I wait several seconds so that most of the warning lights have gone out.
However that is not 'normal starting procedure', not on a petrol and not even on a modern diesel.
Turn key, wait for dash witness lights to extinguish (Key, ABS, SRS etc.) then turn to starting position has been standard procedure since Mk1 - I remember being told this during my handover from the supplying dealer in 2002 and assume it applies to all Hondas.
I have never been told that and have never done it. I was aware that older diesels sometimes have a delay while the coils warm up (whatever the hell that means) but for every car I've owned or driven over the last thirty years I just put the key in and immediately turn it as far as I can they usually fire up and are running in a second, maybe two seconds if the battery is a bit knackered.
Does the push button start not have a built in pause?
There is a brief electric whine from somewhere behind the dash but I think that's the steering lock (it's not the pump, that's a lot quieter and comes from the engine compartment) but the engine starts turning over within half a second. If I choose to manually take control I have to wait three or four seconds before any warning lights start going out.
So it's:
Push.
Whirrr.
Thacker, thacker,
Vroom.
Although at the moment instead of 'vroom' it's more like 'mumble, mutter, vroom' ;)
With a single button push the engine is usually running within a second, maybe a second and a half.
Survey: Does anyone press the accelerator while starting?
Not me. The only things I press are the brake pedal and the starter button.
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I'll add that the ignition doesn't come on until the whine stops so the button at least is not waiting for anything. It just goes straight to turning the engine over.
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The fuel pump is in the fuel tank, I have not heard mine running. Not sure what you are hearing in the engine compartment, radiator / AC fan?
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on the honda website,that i think must be far east /Australia, there is notice of a recall on early mk3 cars, some 150,000 with ignition problems caused by degradation of the plug top coils there is also a recall on some early mk3 cvt gearboxes ,that could loose acceleration and lock up does not specify the cause,but maybe of interest to some out there
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Hopefully they were sorted before it went on sale in the UK. I am one of the "occasionally" ones in the survey above, I have had three poor starts in six months of daily use, one self inflicted. It's my first petrol car for thirty odd years, if that's the biggest problem I am not concerned.
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Problem solved!
After five unsuccessful attempts to start my jazz I called the Honda breakdown number (the AA), the car was on my drive. The big yellow van arrived in 15 minutes and having explained the situation to the AA guy his reply was it sounds like one of our regular Monday morning call outs. He got into the car floored the accelerator and started the car, asking me to confirm there was a cloud of smoke from the exhaust. The car was suffering from cold shunting on the drive, often done on weekends and resulting in the Monday morning call outs. I was advised to avoid stopping the engine while it is cold and on choke especially repeatedly as it floods the engine and flooring the accelerator cuts the fuel supply in these circumstances allowing the engine to clear itself of excess fuel.
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This happened a lot with a Micra we used to have. The RAC man gave the same explanation. His solution was to take out the fuel pump fuse (so no more fuel was being pumped in) and crank the engine to de-flood it. Interesting that your AA man said that flooring the accelerator would cut the fuel supply. Maybe the Micra was different.
My wife staggered me later on by doing this herself when it happened while I was away.
I am very wary about shunting any car for this reason, but sometimes it has to be done, and so far it has never happened to either of our Jazzes.
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The AA guy specifically told me that flooring the accelerator cuts the fuel to the engine if done while starting. Once the fuel flooding the engine reduces to the point where it fires up releasing the accelerator allows the engine to run. My assumption is the ECU protects the engine if you try to start it at full revs.
And there was me thinking on my return to petrol power after three decades of diesel that all the problems caused by carburettors, chokes, etc had been resolved with computer control of engine functions. Silly me!
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Yeah I had this happen on my previous Jazz once. It was also a cold damp day when I backed out of the garage to get at some tools before driving it back in.
As for my current Jazz, as expected now that the weather has improved it's starting first time every time at normal idle revs. I have, however, had a few cases recently where it's not responding to the accelerator very well. Now that I have more experience I can say that the problem is that it's sometimes reluctant to move from Atkinson to Otto cycle even though the accelerator pedal is half way to the floor. Releasing then rapidly re-applying the accelerator usually wakes it up but it's annoying. The only good thing is that if this is a fault developing I might finally be able to get it fixed.
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By repeatedly trying to start my car I was making the flooding worse as the car was on full choke petrol amounts each time. With the shiny AA boot on the accelerator it started after about five seconds of engine rotation.
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I was linked to this on another forum. I found it helpful to a computer controlled petrol engine geriatric virgin.
http://www.gmtuners.com/tech/modes.htm (http://www.gmtuners.com/tech/modes.htm)
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I was linked to this on another forum. I found it helpful to a computer controlled petrol engine geriatric virgin.
http://www.gmtuners.com/tech/modes.htm (http://www.gmtuners.com/tech/modes.htm)
Very interesting thanks. I see that is a GM article but I guess similar is likely to apply to all modern cars.
I assume our old (going back 13-14 years here) Micra didn't have the "clear flood mode".
Very useful to know if it happens to me. I shan't be so nervous about shunting in future.
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I was linked to this on another forum. I found it helpful to a computer controlled petrol engine geriatric virgin.
http://www.gmtuners.com/tech/modes.htm (http://www.gmtuners.com/tech/modes.htm)
Interesting article, thanks. One slightly puzzling thing is that manual intervention is needed (>80% throttle) to enter "clear flood mode", so the driver has to know to do this. Given the amount of clever automation described in the rest of the article, why can't the engine detect that it's flooded and do the necessary automatically ? Might save some breakdown callouts.
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This article refers to General Motors ECM, I'm not so sure that this can apply also to Honda Euro6 engines..
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This article refers to General Motors ECM, I'm not so sure that this can apply also to Honda Euro6 engines..
No one said it applied to Honda engines, however, it does give a general overview of what is going on within an engine ECU and ties in with the AA's version of events.