Wind noise

[guest4222]

Hi,

as a new owner (57 Reg 1.4 SE manual) and new member, I cannot find any 'wind noise' posts that don't direct me to start a new line of enquiry, so here goes.

We recently purchased an excellent condition, very low mileage Jazz from a dealership near where we live.

Super car, comfortable, roomy and just what we were looking for.

However, first time on fast roads (not 60 limited as most are around here) there was a distinct and separate, from the usual background wind noise, that was eventually traced to the front offside quarter light area.

Inspection by us found nothing untoward, except the floppy bonnet hinge covers and the fact that the windscreen plastic edging seemed loose. Immediately reported to garage under their excellent 12 month warranty and began looking on the internet for posts about this before it went in today for their 'view' on things.

This noise is a distinct sound, somewhat like the door has popped open, a window has been opened slightly or as I've seen on another site, the sound of a balloon deflating.

It starts at just below 60 mph and gets worse from there but is very outside wind condition related.

Experimentation has proven that it is worse driving into a wind, especially if that comes in from the front quarter, but only makes the noise in the front offside corner, never from the left hand/nearside quarter. Driving downwind, so to speak, necessitates 70+ mph to generate the same noise and a test drive with a garage mechanic this morning needed almost 80 to generate the sound!! (my licence is still unblemished!! )

The garage deny that they know of this problem, although the mechanic did say he had sprayed silicon lubricant onto all the door seals as they may have become 'hardened' with age. This similar action is mentioned on a site somewhere.

I cannot find anywhere that a satisfactory fix of the problem has been found, just DIY fixes. With 11 months and 3 weeks of the warranty left, I don't wish to spend all my time returning to the garage, nor do I wish to be limited to driving slowly, dependant on the weather conditions and prevailing winds when I make a journey.

Please can someone help? Does anyone know the fix? Are there any dealerships out there that have the answer?

We have the option of returning the car under a 30 day return policy, but are loath to take this option when we have found the car so good in all other aspects.

Hopefully and expectantly

Electricgeoff 

[Pugsley]

Think you are right about the web not being very helpful. I was looking for something else and encountered only DIY fixes.  Found some sense on this web link:

http://www.fitfreak.net/forums/2nd-generation-ge-08-present/62915-wind-noise-drivers-door.html   from Ric01 user, suggesting going to Honda direct to see if it is covered by the warranty. If you have already been there apologies.

Hope it gets fixed.

[guest2662]

it must be very annoying, I haven't got wind noise, but I have a rattle inside the rear of the car, tried bits of sponge on the seat bracket clips, its not the seatbelt clips, tried every thing I can think of, still rattles, its sending me slowly mad, good luck with your wind noise, hope you find out what the problem is.

[guest4222]

Think you are right about the web not being very helpful. I was looking for something else and encountered only DIY fixes.  Found some sense on this web link:

http://www.fitfreak.net/forums/2nd-generation-ge-08-present/62915-wind-noise-drivers-door.html   from Ric01 user, suggesting going to Honda direct to see if it is covered by the warranty. If you have already been there apologies.

Hope it gets fixed.

Thank you Pugsley,
that was one of the links I found, plus all the off shoots of the same pages (US?).
I've been along to Honda supplier today as this is a new purchase, although not new and is covered by a 12 month warranty. They are promising to look further into the problem and will carry out checks on all Jazz of this age/mileage that come in to see if they can find others with the same problem.
However, although there are numerous posts on the web and in the motoring press about the wind noise (and I don't think they are just talking about the gentle rushing sound that you get with many cars!) I'm surprised that Honda don't know anything about it at all.
It will have to be sorted, as we are not going to be happy with this defect for long.
Thanks again for the pointer.
Cheers
Electricgeoff

[guest4222]

it must be very annoying, I haven't got wind noise, but I have a rattle inside the rear of the car, tried bits of sponge on the seat bracket clips, its not the seatbelt clips, tried every thing I can think of, still rattles, its sending me slowly mad, good luck with your wind noise, hope you find out what the problem is.

Hi Boatman,
glad you don't have the wind noise to contend with. It will drive you further nuts in time.
Have you tried the boot, especially under the spare wheel, where the tools and bits are stored? Has a previous owner left something in there that sounds like it is coming from the back seats, but is actually deeper seated?
I wish you luck as I cannot stand noises that aren't fixable too.
Cheers
electricgeoff

[guest4078]

Has the little front quarter light been replaced? Mine has and the noise was similar to your description. I took off the trim and squirted lots of silicone mastic around the glass and then used the silicone to bed in the plastic surround. Seems to have cured the noise. I think the new glass had been installed slightly too far back towards the door, allowing wind to get under the leading edge (if you see what I mean) and leak through.

[guest4222]

The garage has confirmed that all the glass is original, it has been wholly serviced by them throughout it's life.
There has been no notification of a wind noise before I purchased it.
Am I driving it faster than it has ever been driven before I ask myself.
There will be more on going work by the garage before we get to the 30 day hand back deadline, but I wont be happy if they don't fix it and we have to re-negotiate for another car.
EG

[bill888]

fwiw, I have a 57 jazz from new and it suffers from same wind noise problem somewhere around the front passenger/nearside side wing mirror area.  It doesn't happen all the time at above 60mph on motorway as it seemed to depend which way the wind is blowing too.  The noise goes away when I fold in the electric wing mirrors.

This has previously been reported here
http://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=1537.0

I've never been able to find the cause but after reading interlock's post, I will take a closer look at the front quarter window which has never been replaced.


Update: I've added an image from the service manual.  Interlock refers to removing the front trim and applying silicone.  But the service manual shows the trim attached to the leading edge of the quarter window, can only be separated from the glass when both the glass and trim are removed together, and after using a knife to break the adhesive which bonds the glass to the car's body.  (See attached image)

The manual says to spray the replacement glass area with water and using silicone sealant to seal any visible leaks before refitting the front A pillar interior trim.   I would guess if water can get in, then so can wind noise?





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[guest4078]

The drawing is useful. What seemed to happen with the replace glass on my car was it was installed very slightly further rearwards that it should have been. The glass is held by the adhesive as shown, this leaves the edge of the glass 'open to wind, rain etc. and in my case with too big a gap from the front pillar. So packing the glass outside the adhesive has removed the ability of wind/rain to gut under the glass and whistle. It is fiddly to get the lower front part of the plastic trim up in order to pump silicone in, but just be careful and take your time. I used a thin and plyable steel trim tool. Warming it up  protects it from snapping. 

[bill888]

fwiw, I think I may have possibly found the source of the wind noise coming from the near side wing mirror area of my car.

The wind noise only seemed to occur at motorway speeds, particularly if the wind is blowing in a certain direction. It also occurs when overtaking high sided vehicles on the motorway.

Folding the wing mirrors inwards eliminates the noise.

On the leading edge of the front doors, there is a rubber seal.  I think what is happening, is the wind is getting under this door seal.

It's not 100% conclusive, but as a test, I taped down the rubber seal against the adjacent quarter glass using low-tack 3M magic tape.  There was no wind noise from that area during a 100 mile round trip on the motorway today.   I did notice occasional and far subdued flutter coming from the driver's side wing mirror which I hadn't taped down.

See attached photo

Update
I've subsequently googled this URL which briefly mentions the issue with a possible DIY solution using what I think is foam type draught excluder tape?
http://www.hondafitjazz.com/wind.htm

Some URLs showing 3M door seal products applied to a number of cars.
https://www.facebook.com/3mWindStrip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Egvfsf6cw7Q




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[guest4222]

Hi Folks,
Since the first post, I've been looking into this with the Honda dealer/supplier of my car.
During a road test on Tuesday various parts of the body work were taped up/over whilst I drove up and down a main road near the dealership.
Eventually, the small flap of rubber at the, vertical, front of the door (where it meets the quarter light) was taped down along with just about every nook and cranny the technician could find. Lo and behold, the noise ceased!!!!
To test we had it right, all other taping was removed until only that small piece was left. Still no noise!!!
I thoroughly tested it (and risked my licence) by taking the car to over 80 mph. Nothing, just quiet bliss.
Back at the dealership, the technician changed the seal for one of another vehicle which the previous owner had assured them didn't make a noise. (The dealership had been conducting enquiries of all Jazz owners, of that age/model similar to mine that had come in on Px) This rubber was fitted to my car and another intense road test followed where we did just get the noise at the top end (unlawful) speed.
Back to the garage where we did a bit more probing.
My original rubber extended much further over the glass area and over the fixed surround, which has a two height level. Extending onto the higher level leads to air coming under the top edge, this lifts it all and the noise of a slightly open door/window/balloon deflating or extraneous wind noise is created.
The new strip was narrower and fitted more snuggly, but was still just onto the raised area. Hence it took extreme driving to make it lift and generate the noise.
The garage is ordering a new door seal, to be fitted on Friday, but before it goes on, we will check the length of this overlap. Checks on various models on the forecourt revealed that this door seal does differ from car to car, so a technical/quality control issue somewhere.
I have brought the findings to the attention of Honda UK and asked that they put out some sort of information on their site/through their dealerships and I think we owe it to all those who suffer this to make it widely known that there is a problem (on some cars at least) with differing door seal sizes.
Check yours, tell your friends/contacts and tell/ask your dealership to look into this.

I hope this helps al those sufferers out there and we can now all enjoy a quiet, enjoyable car.olving this will be the icing on the cake

Well done this particular dealership for working with me to sort it out.

[bill888]

Thanks for reporting back on your extensive 'on the road' wind noise tests.

I've taken photos of the offending area on my car where the seal overlaps onto the fixed surround.

Your comment about a deflating balloon is also how I would describe the noise but only on gale force windy days.

In my case, it is the passenger nearside which suffers intermittent wind noise.  As you can see from attached photos, one would think it would be the driver offside door seal which would be vulnerable to wind noise, but it is the opposite for me so I'm none the wiser.   Nevertheless, you have confirmed it is a door seal issue.

You mentioned the new strip was narrower?

Fwiw, on my car, the vertical door seal is 12mm wide on both sides, and overlaps the edge of the quarter glass by about 4mm on the passenger side, and 6mm on the driver's side.


I've also seen references to Honda Shin-Etsu silicone grease on other forums, which is recommended for lubricating rubber door seals.  I'm now wondering whether the inner door seal is sealing properly too in the vicinity of the quarter window area.  The Honda stuff is too expensive, so I've ordered a tube of Carlube silicone grease to  evaluate.

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[guest4222]

Hi bill888 and others,

My noise has been fixed today. Even at 85+ mph I couldn't re-create the earlier noise.

However, the fix has not been as I had expected (a slimmer rubber fitting behind the raised section) but by a larger seal; like yours, but it curls inwards, is softer than the original and seals much tighter.

I've attached (I hope) some pictures to illustrate. As I hadn't taken pictures initially (stupidly) I have none as it was, but could re-create the look earlier by twisting the new rubber to imitate how the old one was. These are 1 and 2. Then the new rubber, which you can see changes colour and it seems, texture, at the colour change and curls under neatly and tightly to make all the noises stop.

Looking at your pictures, I'd say that yours have aged and, following todays revelation, gone stiff and inflexible (like mine were and you've got it the other sides!). I don't think silicone will help, it didn't in my case.

Try Honda UK's suggestion (that they sent me when I wrote to them, even though I already had!) of going back to a dealer about it.

I've been pleased with the help the dealership has given over this and have kept Honda UK informed of the issues and the work going on. Hopefully, although I doubt it, they will issue some technical advice to their dealerships that will aid other sufferers. I'm joining Honda Friends too and hope that will give me further opportunities to spread the word.

Great little car, just ideal for our needs currently and I've had lots of opportunities to eye up other cars in their range with a view to future purchases.

All the best

EG



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[D3DSL]

Just out of curiosity what did changing the seal cost and did you or Honda foot the bill?  Mine's been noisy from day 1 but dealers always investigated it but concluded "no fault found".  Gotten used to the noise but if not too expensive might get it sorted.

[bill888]

A replacement front door seal is about £83 for the part according to Lings honda website....   Perhaps adding a secondary rubber door seal as proposed in other forums discussing soundproofing sounds like an alternative cheaper option.

Thanks electricgeoff for the uploaded photos.   

The wind noise on my car has existed since I bought it brand new so I don't think rubber ageing is the cause in my case.

I was thinking of applying silicone grease to the inner seal which contacts with the painted door frame.  You can see part of the inner seal by lifting the visible vertical seal.  My theory is the wind is of course getting under the outer visible seal but the force is perhaps also just strong enough to break past the inner seal and causing the various noises, like a deflating balloon.

The inner seal is of course part of the entire door seal.  It's just a theory.