Author Topic: The trouble with Honda  (Read 18133 times)

guest1521

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The trouble with Honda
« on: January 12, 2013, 12:35:55 PM »
After the truly unfortunate news yesterday about 800 jobs lost at Swindon - and for every one lost there's roughly 'times 3' for knock-on in the supply chain - I saw an ad at the movies for an Alfa Romeo (Giulietta) full of understated sexiness with the tagline 'Without heart, I'm mere machine.'

In advertising, sales and marketing it is said that people 'buy on emotion and justify with logic.'

I'd have to say that Jazz is the first car I've ever bought with thoroughly supressed emotion.

I'd only buy another Jazz with 'logic'... only because everything 'works adequately to well'. If I let emotion rule I'd be pulled elsewhere.

I'm happy to pay a 'premium', too, versus other superminis because of its great rear seating and boot space (hugely versatile) with the overall unusually 'airy feel' of what is a small car. My perception of bullet-proof reliability helped, too. Depreciation rates, I thought, were 'not bad' but not that good, either. Yet discounts are not at all easy to get out of a Honda dealer, people say.
 
It'll be interesting to watch Honda's progress from here. Ford's new B-MAX will be STIFF competition - the 2014 Jazz will have to be very good indeed.

Travelling Europe, 'Honda' cars of any model are notably rare.

IMO 'Honda' (all models) is a great product - arguably overpriced - but has poor image. Even for oldies who perhaps are not prepared to pay over the odds.

What do others think?

madasafish

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Re: The trouble with Honda
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2013, 01:22:08 PM »
I repeat a copy of my post from http://tinyurl.com/amaoccp

"I like my Jazz but in some areas it is GROSSLY over -engineered - the fixings on the plastic panels internally are of very high quality - but no-one can see then and the suspension nuts are all split pinned.

None of this adds to perceived value and engineering wise in my view is overkill as others don't do it (eg Toyota)..

I agree with Lygonos: grossly overpriced... By about £2k on a £14k car..

Honda are living on the past glories of go faster cars in the 1990s - when they made some real fast cars - but today have morphed into a maker of competent very reliable but essentially boring cars.

Their electric hybrid is pants vs Toyota's being about 15% less fuel efficient and it cannot move with the engine switched off - unlike Toyota's (which means utter quiet).

Basically they need to add some cost savings - sensible ones - and some chutzpah to the model designs.. (Their stated aim is to double world sales in 5 years. They are building Fits - Jazz - in Mexico for the US market)

Any car maker which sells a hatchback in the UK with no rear wiper - as Honda did with the prior Civic - and MAJOR road noise problems has a bunch of t***ers for designers and marketing."

chrisc

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Re: The trouble with Honda
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2013, 01:31:26 PM »
Honda has a very high reputation in South Africa.  They have always been in the top 10 of car manufacturers sales, on a par with Mercedes Benz and have the general reputation as "a Japanese Merdedes Benz".  This is not as prevalent today with the advent of Subaru and the more expensive Mitsubishi models but still applies in many people's minds

They also have excellent resale value, almost as high as Toyota which has been no 1 for many years and the same as Ford and GM products

Being classedin the same genre as Mercedes Benz, SA consumers are prepared to pay the premium for a Honda instead of opting for a Mazda or Nissan
If music be the food of love, play on

Defender

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Re: The trouble with Honda
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2013, 05:08:47 PM »
I popped into my local Honda dealer today to order a couple of small items I require, most of the other customers were well past pensionable age, made me feel positively youthful 8).
2011 1.4 EX CVT in Metalic Mushroom (Urban Titanium).

uovouvou

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Re: The trouble with Honda
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2013, 11:06:45 PM »
After the truly unfortunate news yesterday about 800 jobs lost at Swindon - and for every one lost there's roughly 'times 3' for knock-on in the supply chain - I saw an ad at the movies for an Alfa Romeo (Giulietta) full of understated sexiness with the tagline 'Without heart, I'm mere machine.'

In advertising, sales and marketing it is said that people 'buy on emotion and justify with logic.'

I'd have to say that Jazz is the first car I've ever bought with thoroughly supressed emotion.

I'd only buy another Jazz with 'logic'... only because everything 'works adequately to well'. If I let emotion rule I'd be pulled elsewhere.


You've hit the nail on the head.  I like the Jazz, I appreciate its build quality and clever design but I don't love it.  Conversely, my girlfriend has a 2003 Suzuki Wagon R, which is a bouncy and raucous little thing that goes like the wind due to its lightweight build and revvy 1.3 75bhp Suzuki engine (as opposed to the slothful Vauxhall engines in its Agila sister), until about 50mph when the wind wins due to its brick like aerodynamics.  It's patently flawed, yet she loves it and I love it, because it has character.  It's shaped like a wardrobe and it's carried a full bedroom suite from Ikea that wouldn't fit into my Accord.  We've had it three years, it cost a grand and a half and it does the job day, day out, in its own way.  She's even named it!  It's not everyone's cup of tea (it's not even my cup of tea), but it has character.  It reminds me of the Citroen 2CV6.

The Jazz reminds me of my fridge.  I can't ever imagine naming the Jazz.  I bought it purely with my head and, although it's supremely competent at everything it does, I just can't seem to bond with it.  It's like Honda have deliberately tried to remove any character it may have otherwise had.  The steering had more feel on my old CR-V.  The V-TEC engine had a more definite punch and yet also more torque on my Accords. 

There may be a cracking driver's car underneath (it's roadholding is superb, for instance) but Honda have hidden it.  The Fiesta, I would imagine, is a far better drive, but wouldn't match the Jazz's quality.  Even when Honda tried to "sportify" the Jazz with the first Si model, all they did was raid the accessory catalogue for some floor mats with the Si logo on, stick an Si logoed glovebox cover on and bung on some 16" wheels and a rear spoiler.  Oh, and a distinctly unsporting chrome grill.  Come on!  Where's the sports seats, where's the extra power from a bigger engine option?  They didn't even bother fitting the front fog lights from the EX.  I'm the youngest Jazz owner I've ever seen.  I'm 37 and a (step)dad.  In no way am I cool, yet I'm the youngest looking Jazz owner I've seen!  Compare that to the people you see driving Fiestas, Corsas, Aygos, Ibizas etc - a high proportion of them are young and will need several more cars in their motoring career.  I read somewhere that the average Honda Jazz owner is in his or her eighties - in less than fifteen years time those customers will have gone.  Who is going to replace them?

Honda needs a range topping Type R version - quickly.  It doesn't matter if no-one can afford to insure it, no-one could afford to insure Ford's Cosworth models but that didn't stop them becoming cult cars and Ford cashing in by doing various sporty special editions.  Make us a Type R version Honda and make it damn good, just like the 2002-05 Civic was, then do a Type-S with the sporty bits on and strip out the weight (forget the electric folding mirrors, climate control, cruise control and all that stuff us older people like - youngsters aren't that bothered and don't forget, air conditioning was an option on the Accord Type R) and watch the youngsters buy them.  It's worked before, it can work again.

Oh, and finally, make them cheaper - i.e. the same price as the competition.  The new version of my EX, specced up like my own car, is nearly £16k - and there are more expensive versions.  It's a supermini!  Price it like one!
« Last Edit: January 12, 2013, 11:13:23 PM by mondy1975 »

monkeydave

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Re: The trouble with Honda
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2013, 12:59:17 AM »
omg ibizas are total garbage, i would never touch another vw product ever again after the many faults and failures i had with mine and the polo i had before wasn't much better and they were both brand new, but the 04 civic and the 11 jazz i got are great
« Last Edit: January 13, 2013, 11:23:45 AM by monkeydave »

John Ratsey

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Re: The trouble with Honda
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2013, 10:15:32 AM »
Perhaps Honda's plans for production at Swindon were influenced by over-optimistic expectations for the new Civic. If they would accept that car's limitations and offer the Jazz with a bigger engine option in Europe (I suspect it isn't offered to reduce overlap with the Civic) helped by some more aggressive pricing (or at least add a couple of years to the warranty and included servicing) then they could see the Jazz sales increase.

John
2022 HR-V Elegance, previously 2020 Jazz Crosstar

guest2662

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Re: The trouble with Honda
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2013, 10:33:22 AM »
mondy 1975 & monkey dave 2 posts both the same words you 2 must think alike.

guest1521

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Re: The trouble with Honda
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2013, 11:39:28 AM »
I wonder whether any car maker will ever pull out of 'making cars' entirely and just specialise on 'making engines' for other car makers... I'd guess that, before long, someone will.

Honda is reputed to make more ENGINES than anyone else in the world.

That's counting 'Honda' cars, motorcycles, quad bikes, generators, outboard boat, garden-care equipment... racing incl. F1, not that long ago... Honda must certainly know more than most about 'engines'...

Must be lots of transferable technology between 'uses/purpose'.

chrisc

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Re: The trouble with Honda
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2013, 03:18:36 PM »
Honda sell a remarkably light engine for use in microlights.  It has 43cc capacity and lets you fly for over 90 mins on what appears to e a cup full of petrol.
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uovouvou

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Re: The trouble with Honda
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2013, 08:35:02 PM »
mondy 1975 & monkey dave 2 posts both the same words you 2 must think alike.

Great minds and all that ;)
« Last Edit: January 13, 2013, 08:49:54 PM by mondy1975 »

uovouvou

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Re: The trouble with Honda
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2013, 08:42:15 PM »
omg ibizas are total garbage, i would never touch another vw product ever again after the many faults and failures i had with mine and the polo i had before wasn't much better and they were both brand new, but the 04 civic and the 11 jazz i got are great

I agree on the issue of VW quality, they are no longer well made cars in the way that Hondas are, however sadly people perceive the VW quality to be top notch and so they sell like hot cakes.  Why people bought the Audi A4 when they could have had a top-end Accord is beyond me, but they did and now the Accord is going :(  Even with its faults I'd much rather have a Honda Jazz than a Fiesta, Corsa, Ibiza etc purely because of the Honda Jazz's build quality, but sadly not many people agree (especially the younger generation), which is why you see them in every small car there is except the Jazz.

I used to love the 1980s VWs though, they really were built like tanks.

uovouvou

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Re: The trouble with Honda
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2013, 08:48:09 PM »
Perhaps Honda's plans for production at Swindon were influenced by over-optimistic expectations for the new Civic. If they would accept that car's limitations and offer the Jazz with a bigger engine option in Europe (I suspect it isn't offered to reduce overlap with the Civic) helped by some more aggressive pricing (or at least add a couple of years to the warranty and included servicing) then they could see the Jazz sales increase.

John

I looked at the Civic when buying the Jazz and found that there was more feeling of space in the Jazz (don't know if there is more space than the Civic, but it certainly felt like there was), plus the Civic with its sweeping front window was quite awkward to get in and out of, although I did quite like the looks of the Civic.  I think that the Jazz is the better all round car of the two, in fact it reminds me of the 2001-2006 Civic, which in my opinion was the best Civic that Honda ever made.

guest1521

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Re: The trouble with Honda
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2013, 09:45:11 AM »
I'm intrigued as to why young people are so drawn to Citroens (Saxo), Peugeots (208) and Vauxhall (Corsa) in the UK. Those cars are nothing 'special'... their image is nothing 'special' either (p'raps I've missed the ads) 'cept it's become a sort of 'uniform' among their peer group. P'raps the parts are cheap...

Honda badly needs a 'Type R' Civic and Jazz IMO. Why not Accord, too? But as well as having a 'hot' V-TEC they need to 'handle' so suspension tweaking is needed. Jazz's high profile (body roll) maybe counts it out of being a sharp handler. Having said that, in Asia and the USA young enthusiasts mod the Jazz (branded 'Fit' in some of those markets, if not all) and often transform it into a very sharp-looking little beast indeed. But they do have 1.5 engines to start with...

guest1521

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Re: The trouble with Honda
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2013, 02:41:06 PM »
And VW... I saw a latest model Polo and a Jazz (GE)  together at an intersection while driving this afternoon... what a contrast! The Jazz (silver) looks altogether more 'racy' and adventurously styled. Yet there's a 70-year old female driving the Jazz and a 30-ish female for the Polo (black, of course.)

Also, to my eye at least, Civic is 'very interesting' against the 'staid' Golf.

And yet VWs are 'aspirational' purchases... and sell well!

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